Report: Lloyd Carr advised quarterback to decommit from Michigan
When Lloyd Carr retired as Michigan coach, he reportedly advised quarterback John Wienke to decommit from the Wolverines. Wienke did, eventually switching his commitment to Iowa.
Angela J. Cesere | AnnArbor.com
By Lloyd Carr.
Wienke told the The (Iowa City) Gazette that Carr, who retired after the 2007 season, told him to head to Iowa instead of playing for Michigan. He heeded that advice.
"When Coach Carr retired, he was the one -- I actually always liked Iowa -- but he told me probably to go with Iowa," Wienke told the paper. "That's probably the next-best thing that was going to be for me with my style of play."
Wienke was ranked by Scout as the No. 21 quarterback in the country, and No. 14 by Rivals, coming out of Tuscola, Ill. in 2008. But he was a 6-foot-5 pocket quarterback, and was concerned he wouldn't fit into the spread-option scheme employed by incoming coach Rich Rodriguez.
Wienke, now a senior, has played sparingly for the Hawkeyes. He is competing this fall for the team's No. 1 punter spot.
Kyle Meinke covers Michigan football for AnnArbor.com. He can be reached at 734-623-2588, by email at kylemeinke@annarbor.com and followed on Twitter @kmeinke.
Comments
smokeblwr
Fri, Aug 24, 2012 : 6:52 p.m.
HaHa! Take that RickRod!
JRW
Fri, Aug 24, 2012 : 4:50 p.m.
Enough Lloyd Carr. He's done. He's finished. His mediocrity is over. Can we move along now?
Billy Bob Schwartz
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 11:51 p.m.
It was time for Lloyd to move on. It was a mistake for Michigan to hire RichRod. He proved that by having only offense, and that of a limited variety, and by losing way too often. He's gone now. So far, it looks like it was a good thing that Michigan hired Brady Hoke. So far, it looks like he could be here for a long time. Now, what the heck is all the backbiting for? Come on! This is Michigan...!! The rest of this yapping is pure (or not so pure) nonsense. Next non issue....
Tally10
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 9:16 p.m.
And the Michigan Football Custody Battle continues.
81wolverine
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 5:39 p.m.
I can see LC telling a recruit and his parents that IF they asked him directly for his advice to them. Otherwise, I'd think he would have advised the player to talk to new Coach Rodriguez before making a decision. But there are far more incriminating accusations made against former Coach Carr in Three and Out, and by former players that he still has never responded to publicly. Sure it's his right to say or not say what he wants. But, I've felt all along that his silence has been very telling in a negative way. That doesn't make him guilty of anything by itself. I just think based on what happened, it's a cloud hanging around him that he's done nothing to dispel.
Blue Marker
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 6:15 p.m.
Rock solid, well put!
Blue Marker
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 3:08 p.m.
A delicate situation to be sure. Shame on AnnArbor.com for stirring this all up again. There is very little substance to this story, nothing we hadn't heard / read before. It was obviously a baited hook for us all. I've decided the future is bright and I'm moving on. I only wish AnnArbor.com would do the same.
Bmore_Wolverine
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 6:03 p.m.
The worst thing about the "Groban Incident" was that it was all about RR. It had nothing to do with the team. It had everything to do about him begging, publicly, to keep his job. The NCAA violations alone should be enough to have him fired. The losing record made it worse. Historical lows in 130+ years of football. but the "Groban Incident", that was just the cherry on top of the worst college coaching sundae.
Blu n Tpa
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 5:37 p.m.
You're guessing about what Blue Marker thought years ago but that doesn't stop you from jumping to your own conclusions and blaming him. Give it a rest. You have been wrong about every single person you have questioned today simply because of our opinion that the WCiMFH could not coach in the Big Ten. He couldn't win with the players already here and he couldn't build a defense or pick coaches to handle special teams. He was fired after the last 3 games of the 2010 season. Wisconsin, OSU and Mississippi State. Explain those loses to anyone who still cares about the WCiMFH. I'm done with him and you.
Blue Marker
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 5:31 p.m.
Dwayne, You assume a lot without knowing. But I guess you qualified your own statement, you were "guessing". Furthermore, you missed my point by a mile. I contend A2.com put this story (and I use that word loosely) up for one reason, to get hits. I know it's a business and that's their job but I still think it's shameful. This fan base wants and needs to move on. To address your assumptions, I haven't been on the Free Press site since the whole Sharp, Rosenberg, Snyder witch-hunt and I'll never return. I felt the way RR was treated was ridiculous and he had my support for most of his time here. He lost me at the "Groban Incident" like a lot of other Michigan fans. I respectfully disagree with your position on Carr though. Nothing more needs to come out, we just need to look forward IMHO.
Dwayne
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 4:03 p.m.
Yeah, were you casting the same shame when the daily articles were coming out regarding RR? I'm guessing no. Truth be told, not enough has come out about LC's undermining of the program.
tim
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 1:13 p.m.
It would have been dumb for a pocket QB to try and play under a spread offense, Carr did the right thing. Most players at this level want to play-- or play and get a good education, but not many want just a good education and sit on the bench.
lindor
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 12:01 p.m.
I'm happy for Hoke, all the success we've had, and only hope for more this year. The future looks extremely bright! The problem with all this AGAIN is the lack of support RR had from Lloyd. This article only supports all of the allegations of undermining RR, telling players to leave, etc (see Bacon's book)... RR wasn't the best, wasn't a "Michigan man" according to many and wasn't successful here - call him what you want... BUT, when he left he sure did not undermine Hoke or tell any players to leave. I think Lloyd's actions are sad. Just compare how many times we saw him (or any of his former players) on the sideline under RR compared to last year; they all suddenly reappeared. Point is.... drumroll..... we are Michigan. We should support any coach that is in here, especially internally.
Dwayne
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 5:19 p.m.
Nail right on the head, lindor! What really drives me crazy is when you bring this point up, THEY want to paint you as an RR sycophant or someone who was in love with the spread offense, but it reality the only issue is the one that you so articulately described.
truebluefan
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 11:58 a.m.
It appears Iowa did a nice job of turning a highly rated HS QB into a mediocre punter (scoff).
Robo
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 11:29 a.m.
Lloyd is taller than I ever thought. just sayin.
MassMittenz
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 5:14 a.m.
I'm blown away at how many of our posters are under the impression that Lloyd Carr is some sort of Benedict Arnold or Evil dooer. He looked out for the best interest of the kid, that's all. I'm pretty sure when he sat in Weinke's livingroom with his parents, he told them that he would take care of their kid while he was the coach t the University of Michigan. I think he did the right thing!
Blu n Tpa
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 5:25 p.m.
1cool What's this love affair with Shawn King? First off who was the HC at Tulane then? It wasn't the WCiMFH. King wasn't a pocket passer, had some mobility and played vs lower tier college teams. He did have some short term success here in Tampa with the Bucs but that didn't last. If that's you measuring stick for the WCiMFH prior to coming to Michigan well I don't get it. Don't worry though, your buddies with tell you you're great. Please someone stop this Twilight Zone episode.
Dwayne
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 5:24 p.m.
Wow, Tampa...You're going to let me off that easily? He simply says, "Let's get with Coach Rodriguez and get his thoughts on how you might fit into the new offense. I don't want to speak to how you might fit or what type of offense he's considering with the student roster that he has". Something along those lines might have gone along way, instead of "whoever wants out, come on down. I'll sign the release."
The1Cool
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 2:54 p.m.
I'm blown away by the number of people who think LC was just "looking out for the kid". Naivite at it's finest. RR coached Shaun King to an NCAA record 183.3 passer rating in '98. 38 TDs 6 INTs, 3495 passing yards while completing 67% of his passes. Saying Weinke wasn't a fit is just LC fandom. He wasn't looking out for the kid or anyone else.
Blu n Tpa
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 1:59 p.m.
Dwayne, given the number of false assumptions you have made recently "as far as I concerned" takes on a whole new meaning. So you are Coach Carr, and that will take a leap of the imagination, and a player you recruited asked you about where he is going to fit in the team's new offense given he's a pocket passer with limited speed. You answer_________________________________. I'm looking forward to your reply.
Dwayne
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 12:24 p.m.
Good for you, Mittens. LC had plenty of opportunities (in fact, it should have been an obligation) to support the new coach, but he did not. You put your head in the sand all you like, but he has no credibility as a Michigan Man, as far as I'm concerned.
SEC Fan
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 12:10 p.m.
Was Mr. Carr looking "out for the best interest" of the entire team and UM when he encouraged them all to consider transferring and telling them all he would happily sign off on the transfer papers?
The1Cool
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 4:33 a.m.
Lloyd Carr, turncoat.
Dwayne
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 4:14 p.m.
Indeed, Cool One! These guys are all the same and there message has been unchanged since day one. It's interesting though how true fans behave. We could have decided to not like Hoke, calling him a mediocre third choice, but no way. We could have looked for articles in the paper, blaming him for all of the transfers and off-season legal matters, but not a chance. Hoke has received nothing but support, even from fans that felt like RR was treated poorly. Yes, LC will be remembered by me for the last thing that he did for the Michigan program and I have a lot of years left to tell people about it.
The1Cool
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 2:33 p.m.
I know. The truth is very hard to accept. RR coached an immobile, unathletic Shaun King to breaking NCAA records at Tulane, but for some reason people think he could only have success with spread-type quarterbacks. The truth is very difficult for some to accept.
Blu n Tpa
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 11:33 a.m.
Coach Lloyd Carr, Michigan Head Coach and member of the College Football Hall of Fame. He told the truth and some people just can't stand the truth.
Dave Otto
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 4:16 a.m.
The only obligation that Mr. Carr should have been operating under was an obligation to the truth as he understood it. Given the high likelihood that RR would have chased the kid off, I don't see the problem with the counsel that Lloyd provided. You folks acting like Lloyd broke some code of honour should try a little thought experiment; what if John Wienke was your son?
Tally10
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 8:40 p.m.
So after Mesko graduated, he could have competed for the #1 punter spot the last 3 years.
Bmore_Wolverine
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 5:45 p.m.
@Dwayne - "Maybe Michigan would've needed a punter too" Now you're just showing how little you know about Michigan football. Michigan had Zoltan Mesko, the 150th overall pick in the NFL draft. That's right, the Ray Guy Award winning punter who was drafted in the 5th round of the NFL draft. Don't worry, you probably forgot about him because RR whined so much about how the cupboards were bare when he got to Michigan. They weren't bare, he just needed an excuse because he's a poor coach.
Dwayne
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 4:20 p.m.
Seriously, thought experiment?! He is trying to be a punter at this point. What on earth are you guys talking about? You're acting like he left an absolutely horrible opportunity at Michigan for gum drops and lolly pops at Iowa. The guy was a QB and now he's trying to be a punter, that to me sounds like a lot of room for opportunity at Michigan. Maybe Michigan would've needed a punter, too. Wouldn't you rather be a punter at Michigan, instead of Iowa? Oh wait, I know that answer for some of you Michigan fans is...it depends on who's coaching Michigan.
Melrose
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 2:45 a.m.
Non story. I bet every Michigan coach, including Bo and RR, advised one or more players to go somewhere else (or failed to offer a scholarship to someone they would have taken). These coaches rightfully do things that take into account the bigger picture. If this is accurate, LC did the right thing for that kid.
Tru2Blu76
Sat, Aug 25, 2012 : 12:20 a.m.
Sure Bo and other major HCs gave such advice to individual recruits at times but Carr called a team meeting and told the whole team they could count on him to help them transfer from Michigan. This never was about what Carr told one single recruit - it's about what he told the active players as a group just as the new HC was due in town. Let's not rewrite history for the sake of a once great coach who handled his entire retirement badly.
Dwayne
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 4:21 p.m.
And then others, like LC, advised all Michigan players to seek opportunities elsewhere.
treetowncartel
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 2:24 a.m.
Gsry Moeller shouldn't have been fired. I'd be curious to know if Lloyd had any input on that decision. The hockey coach gets drunk and urinates in public and keeps his job and a football coach gets drunks and pays a compliment to a young lady and gets fired, really?
treetowncartel
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 5:24 p.m.
@ Doug, the world is my urinal, but I do know of instances where Ann Arbor cops have written indecent exposure tickets to someone who is just relieving himself. My poin is that both of those incidents are not something worth losing your job over. An example might be the current EMU President. Doesn't Gary Moeller have the best winning percentage of any Lions head coach?
Bmore_Wolverine
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 4:16 p.m.
Gary Moeller was a sobbing, emotional, out-of-control mess. To be honest, I'm shocked that he's been welcomed back into the fold after 20 years. Listening to those tapes being played on the radio for weeks was the worst I had ever felt for Michigan football... that is until RR come to town and created a whole new low. Hmmm, maybe that's why Moeller is back?
Doug
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 2 p.m.
treetowncartel - Tell me that you never took a leak outside in the bushes.
Blue Marker
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 11:47 a.m.
I'm pretty sure the police releasing the audio tapes of Moeller's drunken ramblings was his undoing. However, I agree Gary shouldn't have been fired. Also, I highly doubt the defensive coordinator was asked for input at that time.
michboy40
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 12:47 a.m.
This is a perfect example of how out of wack college football is. This kid thought he had a shot at the NFL and was more worried about how he fit with the football team than the level of free education he was getting. It turns out that he spent the last four years working up to punter, and even that is a competition.
Theo's Brother
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 12:16 a.m.
From a man to a young kid, ultimately it hinges on what benefits the program. Since he was headed out of the door, his loyalty shifted to the well-being of that kid. Lloyd helped Mr. Wienke make thr best decision and it had a minimal effect on Michigan's program.
cathy
Wed, Aug 22, 2012 : 11:54 p.m.
No smoke....no fire.....no scandal here. Next.
TheWay
Wed, Aug 22, 2012 : 11:50 p.m.
On what planet is an Iowa education better than a Michigan education? Lloyd Carr advised a kid to attend an inferior college. There is zero defending that.
MassMittenz
Fri, Aug 24, 2012 : 6:33 a.m.
@SECFAN, IT's the truth. Many of us would like to say that our players academic schedules are on par with students from Brown or Cornell, but truthfully I'd say they are closer to any other University. Now when it comes to our common student body we excel. Most Top 25 football programs are more than likely to be as equally intelligent on the field.
SEC Fan
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 12:08 p.m.
@MassMitenz, "He was never recruited because he was great academically, it was because he could throw a forward pass" kind of goes against the grain of most posts on this site...
Blue Marker
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 11:43 a.m.
Iowa is not an inferior university. The current president of Michigan was the former president of Iowa. Was she inferior until she got to Ann Arbor?
Blu n Tpa
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 11:29 a.m.
On what planet do you have to be from to "Read the article". The young man states he already liked Iowa. Didn't the two QBs already on the roster leave Michigan when the WCiMFH brought in Tate and DRob? Did they value the Michigan education or did they want to play football. Don't transfer your values to someone who doesn't share them. This kid was a 97% lock to transfer after his first redshirt year and my guess is he might not have gotten as good an offer. On what planet does anyone say that Iowa offers a better education than Michigan? On what planet do you get to set the rules on how people defend others? The Michigan admissions office sends hundreds of kids to schools that offer inferior educations to Michigan's all the time. How dare they?!
MassMittenz
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 5:01 a.m.
The Way, No, I'm not saying that, but we don't know what kind of student he is or what his intentions are for his collegiate career. Many, many kids come to their favorite college for the "program" not because of the academics presented at the school. It would really be great if all kids went to school for the academics, but if that was true Ivy league schools would have the best athletes. My point is Lloyd Carr recruited Weinke to throw passes, score TD's and win games. We all know that the players have to pass classes to play, but student-athletes that are recruited are signed to play sports. Let's be honest, our players haven't been known to take the most difficult class schedules in regards to our Football Program.
TheWay
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 2:20 a.m.
Why a kid is recruited has absolutely no impact on the quality of his education. Are you saying because he wasn't recruited for academics that he should just be happy with any education he gets? And since when is Iowa not a "true rival"?
MassMittenz
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 12:48 a.m.
He was never recruited because he was great academically, it was because he could throw a forward pass. Of course, Iowa's education is inferior to Michigan's but thats another argument. The kid was a pro-style QB and he sent him to another pro-style offense that wasn't a true rival.
Scott
Wed, Aug 22, 2012 : 11:15 p.m.
Carr acted against Rodriguez and the University of Michigan. Michigan made him rich and famous and powerful, not the other way around. As long as a man is alive he can make up for his mistakes by admitting his failures. Come clean Lloyd and join the rest of us mortals in this journey called life.
Blu n Tpa
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 5:18 p.m.
Scott, how much money did your guy pocket before getting shown the door. I figured it out once, the WCiMFH made almost $800,000 per win at Michigan. So save the speech about money for another day.
Blu n Tpa
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 11:08 a.m.
Dwayne did you know you have the "way"s name in you moniker? Spooky! I need one of these fans of the WCiMFH to explain how the last 3 games of the 2010 season was Coach Carr's fault because that was the overridding reason for the firing of that coach.
Dwayne
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 12:13 a.m.
Oh, almost forgot to recognize TheWay, great post!
Dwayne
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 12:11 a.m.
Another plus one, Scott! Drives me crazy how these guys won't acknowledge the lack of support and bitterness by LC.
Terry Star21
Wed, Aug 22, 2012 : 11:51 p.m.
Nope. You have no knowledge of anything, even close to those assumptions except a hatred for the nation best college football team. BTW - Michigan could never give Lloyd Carr anything close to what he gave his players, his team and his faithful fans. Salute.
Terry Star21
Wed, Aug 22, 2012 : 11:15 p.m.
Unbelievable. I'm talking about the reaction and comments to this article. Lucky for Mr. Lloyd Carr we are not in the old west day - for you would surely hang him without a trial. How dare anyway, with a love of Michigan football, talk or make comments about something alleged - especially from the word of a once highly sought QB, that failed as a QB in college and is now a punter. Lloyd Carr is an institution. He gave his all to his university, to his student/athletes and to his team. He is a hero, though during his career was highly and unnecessarily criticized. I refuse to believe anything questionable about Mr. Carr without his comment. I still live in America, land of the free, land of the innocent until proven otherwise. This story does not prove anything. BTW...what's up with all the negative press this past week, with just days until the Michigan season opens ? MgoBlueForTiM....Thank you for everything Mr. Lloyd Carr.
Bmore_Wolverine
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 4:07 p.m.
@Scott - Casteel was offered the job, but did not like the terms (year-to-year). Tese terms, BTW, were the exact same for every other assistant coach. RR did not know that Casteel was not joining the staff at Michigan until he didn't show up on the bus leaving for A2 (reading the book "Three and Out", I got the sense that the bus was like the last chopper out of Vietnam. How bad is Morgantown?)
Dwayne
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 3:57 p.m.
Rabid...brakes are used to stop cars, trucks, bicycles, etc. I think you mean break...and the other word you are looking for is rules, not laws. Not to mention, the whole NCAA violation was part of the undermining plan, which all of you LC sycophants should be ashamed of. This whole period is a black mark on Michigan history and not because of coaching. Rather a bunch of cry baby Michigan alums that didn't get the coach that they wanted and decided to tear apart it's own program to get rid of the coach that they didn't want. Again, it's disgusting.
Rabid Wolverine
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 1:54 p.m.
Scott, Technically, RR did brake the NCAA laws so he could be seen as a criminal or law breaker ....
SEC Fan
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 1:01 a.m.
I wouldn't say this is the only piece of "evidence" of "tampering" by Mr. Carr. You should read "Three and Out: Rich Rodriguez and the Michigan Wolverines in the Crucible of College Football" by John Bacon. Actually a very good read. (John Bacon also authored the book about Bo and who provides weekly commentary for Michigan Radio and hosts two radio shows on AA radio (AM). ) Mr. Carr encouraged all players to consider leaving when it was announced RR was coming in and Mr. Carr went further by offering to sign transfer papers to any player wanting to leave, not just Weinke.
Dwayne
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 12:09 a.m.
Exactly right, Scott! And the same people that supported RR, now support Hoke, no split factions now...no fair weathered 'Michigan Men' now.
Scott
Wed, Aug 22, 2012 : 11:21 p.m.
I'd appreciate your comment but I saw the despicable way Rodriguez was treated. Yah he failed, was lost without his defensive coordinator Casteel- who Martin wouldn't let him hire; and he was a bit of a used car salesman, even committed the sin of being from West Virginia and liking emotional music. Still, the free press and some people , treated him like a criminal. In the end he walked away with class and without expressing any bitterness. That can't be said for Llloyd.
Tally10
Wed, Aug 22, 2012 : 11:01 p.m.
How was it the best thing for him? Carr could have encouraged him to stay at Michigan and compete for the #1 punting spot there. From the sound of it, his style of play wouldn't have mattered. I'm glad that terrible coach/person RR didn't encourage DR to leave seeing how he didn't fit Hoke's style of football. Also glad to see DR stay knowing they were going to change what he do best to fit their offensive scheme. Did not worry about self and stats, but the TEAM, excepted the new staff, and gave 110% with that ever-present smile. Results 11-2 season.
Rabid Wolverine
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 1:52 p.m.
The big difference is that Hoke formed his offense around Denard because Hoke knew how talented Denard is. RR had the same choice, but didn't. We see the path that RR went down choosing that direction. It would had been the definition of insanity for Hoke to attempt the same thing but expect different results. Hoke spoke with Denard and told him that he'd form the offense around him. RR did no such thing.
MassMittenz
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 12:51 a.m.
I'm sure he became a punter after he found out that he wouldn't play QB. That was long afterhe had transferred.
xmo
Wed, Aug 22, 2012 : 11 p.m.
I looks like Rich Rod should have been given a few more years! I liked his style and his record!
Bmore_Wolverine
Fri, Aug 24, 2012 : 2:48 a.m.
@Rejw - Seriously? You think that ADs Martin and Brandon shot down his hiring of a GOOD DC?!?!? That's not only ridiculous, it's obscene.
Rejw
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 10:03 p.m.
What do you think would have happened if the UM athletic department had let RR hire a DC on the level of Mattison?
StopCrying
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 1:22 a.m.
He could have come back as an offensive coordinator. That is ALL he knows. His defense and special teams are pathetic. I mean they were just terrible. 60+ points to illinois. Let's get real.
Scott
Wed, Aug 22, 2012 : 11:26 p.m.
No- he deserved to be fired. But if he's has Jeff Casteel as his defensive coordinator he would still be here. Casteel is a phenomenal coach who regularly put up top offenses that beat SEC teams and won BCS bowl games.
SEC Fan
Wed, Aug 22, 2012 : 10:47 p.m.
undermining your replacement doesn't sound very cavalier to me.
garrisondyer
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 4:23 p.m.
"Cavalier" can either be used as a noun or an adjective. You're using the noun definition for the adjective word.... Doesn't work that way! @ The1Cool, let's be serious here. You think I would post this under my real name, not think for a second to myself, "Oh, wait, maybe there's another definition I don't know about," and then still not take the 5 seconds to check online?
PrideLand
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 2:53 p.m.
"Undermining your replacement" is not what happened here. If you asked RR if he had a problem with the QB being advised to go elsewhere, he would say he had no problem. Why? Because the kid would have eat up a scholarship on the bench all 4 years. He was and continues to be able to play for Iowa. This was a Win-Win. Maybe SEC Fan should stop trolling and mind his/her own team/conference.
M-Wolverine
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 1:15 p.m.
Except that in that sentence you're not using it as a noun, which is what you're definition is (and a stretch to take an adjective in a definition and correlate it, but whatever), but it's a descriptive modifier to "sound." So from your own definition (only had adjectives, not adverbs)- "haughty, disdainful, or supercilious: an arrogant and cavalier attitude toward others." Which, if you believe the story, is exactly how it sounds. So maybe you need a refund on that SEC education. But it's always nice to see someone gloat about being wrong.
SEC Fan
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 12:06 p.m.
What I don't understand is why they wouldn't think to look it up before posting their comments????
The1Cool
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 4:28 a.m.
You guys rag on SEC Fan for properly using a word that you clearly do not know the definition of. That is hilarious!
SEC Fan
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 12:46 a.m.
hmmm...well, I did attend public schools, but not in Michigan: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cavalier Cavalier: a gallant or courtly gentleman. Gallant: brave, spirited, noble-minded, or chivalrous Chivalrous: gracious and honorable toward an enemy, especially a defeated one, and toward the weak or poor.
MichFanTex
Wed, Aug 22, 2012 : 11:37 p.m.
SEC Fan obviously didn't attend Vanderbilt.
garrisondyer
Wed, Aug 22, 2012 : 11:26 p.m.
Why did you choose the word 'cavalier'? "I do not think that word means what you think it means." Inigo Montoya
TheOnlyColors
Wed, Aug 22, 2012 : 10:37 p.m.
I this was actually the right advice to give the kid. Look, he's a pro style QB who committed to Michigan when they ran a pro style offense. It would be disingenuous of Carr to tell him that RichRods spread option offense would still be a good fit for the kid. Plus, its not like the kid went to Iowa and lit up the rest of the B1G. Let sleeping dogs lie.
MassMittenz
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 12:42 a.m.
He was never offered a scholarship based on his academics, it is a "perk" to have such a quality educatiopn at UofM. He was there to make the football program better, period!
TheWay
Wed, Aug 22, 2012 : 11:58 p.m.
The kid would have received a better education at Michigan. Period.
MichFanTex
Wed, Aug 22, 2012 : 10:25 p.m.
Boo hoo, Lloyd Carr is evil incarnate. Seriously? Really? First, can we acknowledge that John Wienke isn't the first player ever to be advised to look for greener pastures prior to signing day? Second, has it ever occured to the RR sycophants that Carr was doing RR a favor? And maybe, just maybe, RR suggested that Carr speak to Wienke about looking elsewhere. I mean it isn't beyond the realm of possiblities. Is it? Besides, he would have been a true freshman deep behind Sheridan and Threet, both of whom eventually gave way to midget speedsters. A 6'5" statue in the RR offense? I don't think so either. Moreover, as eager as RR was to pour his heart out to JUB, I don't recall him ever saying that he wished he'd worked harder to keep Ryan Mallett nor lamenting the loss of the Wienke committment. I've got the book right here, maybe the pages were sticking together...anybody have the citations?
Bmore_Wolverine
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 3:51 p.m.
@TheWay - Shawn King was not a pocket passer. Not sure why you think that argument helps prove your point. It actually hurts the defense of RR.
Blu n Tpa
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 1:41 p.m.
Dwayne, do you ever get tired of being wrong about me. No, that wasn't me. How do I know? Because I didn't even post my thoughts about football until the middle of the 2010 season and I didn't have serious doubts on the WCiMFH until the win over Illinois. I even went to the Gator Bowl game hoping for a Michigan win. "Faction"? Did you learn a new word today? Nothing in your post is accurate about me and if your decision-making ability is being displayed here then your support for Michigan is in question. IT's ALL about coaching and how many games you win. You can make up what you want about anyone you disagree with but the facts are there to see. The WCiMFH and his staff were totally unsuccessful in every facet of the game of football. You blaming it on me, other Michigan fans, Coach Carr, the tooth fairy, or anyone other than the coaches of the 2010 team is the art of distraction. The WCiMFH ran off more Michigan football players than any other coach ever could. Please keep you responses to me about what you KNOW about me, not what you "think you remember". That's not working to well for you.
Dwayne
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 12:04 p.m.
Tampa! I remember you now! You had the fat guy avatar, no shirt and suspenders, right? You didn't like the RR hire from the beginnIng, you didn't like the offense, didn't think it would work in the Big Ten, didn't like him bringing his own staff (even thought that's what EVERY new coach does). You and your faction didn't like it, so you undermined him every chance you got. All of you so called Michigan Men. It's not about coaching decisions or win/loss records. RR is gone and we've moved on, but we don't have to sit out here and let all these fake Michigan Men try and pretend that they were supportive of RR and is staff, but they were just horrible.
Blu n Tpa
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 10:51 a.m.
Dwayne, Coach Carr was responsible for every loss and every mistake in judgement that the WCiMFH ever had. Let's look together, and you can help me explain it to everybody out there, how Coach Carr was the primary reason for the last 3 games of the 2010 season. Of course you start with the coaches LC picked for that team.. That was all LC. The way the defense played and how prepared the special teams were for those 3 games was all on Coach Carr. Coach Carr called every decent player in the midwest and told them to play somewhere else. I'm sure you got Coach Carr's phone records right there showing that, right? I am so happy that we got together and proved that the 3 years under the WCiMFH was all the fault of one man. Coach Carr how dare you tell young players the truth. Shame, shame, shame! How was that Dwayne? Feel better?
StopCrying
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 1:19 a.m.
Tulane also did not have Forcier or Robinson in the depth chart to distract him. This guy didn't stand a chance with rich.
TheWay
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 12:02 a.m.
You do know Rich Rodriguez was the OC at Tulane when Shawn King was there and passed for 5800 yards and 60 TDs in 2 seasons, including one undefeated season, right?
Dwayne
Wed, Aug 22, 2012 : 11:10 p.m.
Whatever, Tex...your sycophant comment will be taken objectively, when you acknowledge any accountability that Carr has in those RR years.
hroad
Wed, Aug 22, 2012 : 10:12 p.m.
MSU can thank Carr for their four-year winning streak against the Wolverines. Lloyd's actions contributed greatly to those losses.
Blu n Tpa
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 10:35 a.m.
Yeah, your right because a 6-5 pocket passer was the missing link in the last 4 UM vs MSU games. The WCiMFH and his band of merry idiot coaches, except for two, had nothing to do with it. How do I get a ticket to your world?
StopCrying
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 1:17 a.m.
Lloyd didn't hire richrod. Him and Greg Robinson fielded one of if not the worst defense in Michigan history.
TheOnlyColors
Wed, Aug 22, 2012 : 10:38 p.m.
C'mon man! You still trotting out the old "bare cupboard" excuse?? See you October 20th, for what should be one heck of a game
Mick52
Wed, Aug 22, 2012 : 9:58 p.m.
I do not see this as any big deal or issue. Makes sense to advise a player that his particular skills will not fit in a particular style of offense. Isn't that why Ryan Mallet left?
Bmore_Wolverine
Fri, Aug 24, 2012 : 2:45 a.m.
Dwayne, you're so in love with RR. Why are you even on this site? Do you know how to find any of the Arizona sites? If you need help, all you need to do is ask.
Dwayne
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 7:43 p.m.
...and I thought you couldn't Bmore delusional. RR had ZERO support and most of the crap that was hung around his neck, was created internally. And don't get me started about LC. He had the support, organization, resources and talent to contend for a national title every year, but there was one problem, he was just a mediocre coach.
Bmore_Wolverine
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 5:32 p.m.
Dwayne, I'm not the one still making excuses for RR. He had the support of the university the way EVERY coach at EVERY university does and that's through winning. Had RR not been so disasterous, we'd still be singing his praises. But, you know what? One coach did win big at Michigan and still didn't have many singing his praises, rather demanding that he step down. That man was Lloyd Carr. You want to talk about a raw deal... 1 National Championship, the first-ever Defensive Player to win the Heisman, 5 B1G titles, 122 wins, ranked in the AP 25 at the end of every season except 2005, and ZERO NCAA violations. LC was the coach that got the raw deal, not RR.
Dwayne
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 4:42 p.m.
Bmore...you are right about one thing...who knows what RR could have accomplished, if he'd had the MICHIGAN support behind him, but he didn't. That's the only point that I've been trying to make for the last three years!
Dwayne
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 4:39 p.m.
Dude, I don't know you or care to know you, but if that was truly your opinion, then I think you'd want to do a little more research to determine whether or not the guy had a real opportunity to implement his vision, because he clearly did not. I don't need to admit that I was wrong, because I didn't have an opinion of the hire. I remember being surprised, because it seemed that Miles was pretty much locked up, then there seemed to be a whole lot of confusion and embarrassment going on in the Athletic Department at Michigan. I didn't think the guy was given a fair shot. Do I have to admit that he was the right hire or that his offensive 'scheme' wouldn't work here? No, I do not, because we'll never no. The baby faction of Michigan made sure of that, at every turn. You say you aren't a part of that, well maybe pulling your head out of the sand and asking a few obvious questions wouldn't hurt you then.
Bmore_Wolverine
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 4:22 p.m.
@Dwayne - I loved the RR hire. I actually thought, "Wow, if he can make WV a national contender, just think what he could do with a tradition and reputation like Michigan behind him!!" Turns out, I was wrong. The RR hire was bad. He's a bad coach that brought shame to the University both on the field and off. I'm able to admit that I was wrong. Can you? BTW, quit thinking you know me, 'cuz ya don't.
Dwayne
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 3:51 p.m.
Rabid Bmorons...you guys are broken records. I just wish one of your ilk would have the courage to say, "Yes, we didn't like him from the beginning, didn't think that he was the right choice, didn't think that his 'scheme' would work in the big ten and never thought he'd be a Michigan Man...so we had no intention of supporting him, secretly rooted for his failure and sometimes did things to undermine his program."
Bmore_Wolverine
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 3:42 p.m.
@Rabid Wolverine - Amen! RR is a one trick pony. He said when he was hired that he would adapt his offensive and defensive schemes to the talent he had, but he never did. The result, abject faulure. Now he's doing the same things at Arizona. He's saying the team was fat and out of shape. He's saying that it will take a season or two for the kids to pick things up. He's saying that he'll throw the ball more to protect his QB from taking too many hits running the ball. It's hysterical. It's Michigan all over again. With the exact same coaches (except DC). He'll have the exact same results. BTW, he'll probably lose to Toledo in week 1, which would make it an EXACT repeat of his time at Michigan.
Rabid Wolverine
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 1:45 p.m.
Dwayne, RR was fired because he couldn't win against anyone with a winning record. They didn't paly defense and were crap on special teams. He wasn't fired because a part of the fanbase didn't care for him because he was an outsider. RR made it very apparent that he wasn't bending his offense to the talent he had around him and that is what doomed him. The lack of flexibility given the talent you have is what truely defines a coach. He took a team that could have been very decent in 08 with a similar offensive style and he turned them into a bottom of the big ten team. HE got us put on probation for the first time ever as well. He didn't do himself any favors, but let's be real. In the big picture the fans opinion does not matter so long as the coach wins. He didn't so he got the boot.
Dwayne
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 1:07 p.m.
Oh yes, your faction. You have your cute little acronym and comments about coaching ability against the big ten, which was a theory brought up from day one. Your faction encouraged recruits for leaving and then blamed the new coach for them doing so. This isn't about his last three games or how many games you went to or why he was fired. This is about an active undermining of RR from day one.
Blu n Tpa
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 12:44 p.m.
Whoa! My "faction"? Not supporting the hiring of the WCiMFH? You just took this dicussion to another level. First, I attended at least one home game every year that RR was there, with members of our family, from Florida. I supported Michigan football with word and deed during RR's time and your knee jerk reaction to my opinion shows you would take Michigan losing under the WCiMFH no matter what. He wasn't fired from lack of support from the start. He was fired because he couldn't coach vs the Big Ten. His last 3 games were terrible. The Gator loss to MSU, I was there. Mallet left because he didn't want to stay and play under that style of offense. I think you are being less that honest or naive with your observation about if or why RR would have used pocket passing QBs. Really? I can never get an answer from those who blindly support the WCiMFH so maybe you care to put it out there. What did you see in the last 3 games of 2010 that would led you to retain the WCiMFH?
Dwayne
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 11:50 a.m.
Tampa...this isn't about unethitical, it's about LC, you and the rest of your 'faction' not liking the RR hire, so instead of doing everything possible to support the new coach, he was undermined at every turn. This is an example of that. And BTW, Mallet HAD played prior to the coaching change and he was given the same advice. No one knows how either QB would have played or how RR would have used them. Seriously, I support coach Hoke 100 percent, but just one time I'd like to see you people acknowledge that RR never had a chance and it was Michigan Men that made sure of it. Disgusting.
Blu n Tpa
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 10:31 a.m.
Wait a minute. DRob had already signed and played at Michigan for years when the coaching change came about. If DRob had wanted to move on that would have been his choice but he didn't and I, for one (of millions) am happy with the results. I challenge anyone to find anything that is unethical about telling a recruit the truth as you see it. Please tell me you know this young man would have stayed on the team after seeing how the offense worked. You can't and it was his decision. Way Read the article. The young man already like Iowa and he made the decision. Coach Carr simply told him the truth.
MassMittenz
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 12:15 a.m.
TheWay, It's his call because as the coach whom recruited him, they have some form of relationship. He knew this kid wouldn't have played under RR just as much as we did. Why waste this kid's career being in a place where he shouldn't be, what would be the purpose? I'd just about garuntee that LC wouldn't have did this had Hoke been the new coach following him. If there was a true talented pocket-passer on the squad when Hoke took over, then Denard would be playing WR right now.
TheWay
Wed, Aug 22, 2012 : 11:48 p.m.
How was this Lloyd Carr's call to make? Why would ANY Michigan Man tell ANY kid he should go somewhere other than Michigan?
MassMittenz
Wed, Aug 22, 2012 : 11:28 p.m.
Saveferris, I cannot agree with you. If RR would have told Denard to transfer because his skills don't fit the next scheme he would have been right. Why waste a kids eligibility and talent being on a roster that his attributes cannot help the team? Look what happened to David Cone & Steven Threet, what did staying under RR's system do for them? Threet was booed and bashed constantly because he played in a system that his physical attributes did not fit. He took a beating every Saturday on the field and in the media, all for nothing according to your logic. It's all about these young Men's careers, not about the next coach!
saveferris
Wed, Aug 22, 2012 : 11:07 p.m.
Did you miss the fact that Lloyd was being paid by UM and it was his role to do what was right for the University? Telling any recruit or active player to quit the UM team is not in the long term best interest of the University. Assessing how a player's skills fit in is the role of the next coach. What if Denard left because RR told him to? That would have been bad for Denard and bad for UM.
TheOnlyColors
Wed, Aug 22, 2012 : 10:39 p.m.
Thank you, somebody with some common sense on here.
Susie Q
Wed, Aug 22, 2012 : 9:40 p.m.
While Coach Carr did many wonderful things while head coach (such as winning the only national championship since 1948, his Mott Hospital charity work), his final year and the RRod era were not his finest. He did not necessarily act like a Michigan Man if this report and the Three and Out allegations are true.
PrideLand
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 2:48 p.m.
What the heck are you talking about. The QB would have never left the bench for UM! Carr did the right thing for the kid and UM. He freed up a scholarship and the kid at least has been on the field. No explaination needed (a2citizen).
a2citizen
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 12:45 a.m.
I do think Lloyd Carr owes an explanation to Michigan fans.
Dwayne
Wed, Aug 22, 2012 : 9:22 p.m.
If going from being ranked as the 14th QB recruit in the country to trying out as a punter at Iowa is 'landing on his feet', I'd hate to see what falling on his face looks like.
Bmore_Wolverine
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 3:30 p.m.
@Dwayne - Falling on his face would look like Steven Threet running the read-option. He simply was not a match for RR's offense. LC did him a huge favor, if he couldn't have figured that out on his own. Kudos to Lloyd!
Blu n Tpa
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 10:19 a.m.
Dwayne, if he were your son and you knew his skill set wouldn't match the new offense, would you still send him to Michigan to pushed off the team or would you seek advice, think it over, and make the best decision for your son? Read the article He liked Iowa already and Coach Carr was 100% right. He wouldn't have been happy here and he would have left anyway. He wasn't picking a school based on education, like all athletes, he wanted a place to play. He's getting a free education and still trying to land a starating position on the football team. Yes, he's doing fine.
Dwayne
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 2:42 a.m.
A2citizen = anonymous Clearly you missed my point...to say that going to Iowa and getting a chance to try out as a punter, when you are the 14th ranked QB recruit...well, to say that is success and you shouldn't question the decision to decommitt from Michigan...well, come on, seriously? That's ridiculous, but not surprising...I believe I remember you anonymously bashing RR. And BTW...I am more than happy to give the rest of my information and yes, my name is Dwayne.
a2citizen
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 12:44 a.m.
He got weeded out at the next level...but at least he was good enough to get a chance. Falling on his face would be if, 20 years from now, he is anonymously posting about how to measure the success of high school athletes accepted to D1 schools.
unidled
Wed, Aug 22, 2012 : 9:09 p.m.
This was only the beginning of Lloyd's three years of undermining RichRod. Bo would have kicked Lloyd's rear end for his actions.
M-Wolverine
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 1:20 p.m.
@Matt Cooper- And of course you knew Bo well enough on a personal level so as to judge his character such as you have...right?
MassMittenz
Wed, Aug 22, 2012 : 11:16 p.m.
Bo? I disagree wholeheartedly because as a coach who cares about his players LC did the right thing for that kids career. How could Bo not respect that? Do you believe he would have supported a total botard like RR who ran our program into the ground?
Matt Cooper
Wed, Aug 22, 2012 : 10 p.m.
Not sure I agree with you, unidled. Bo knew this wasn't his program any more. While he may have had an opinion, he always respected Coach Carr as a man as well as a coach.
Dwayne
Wed, Aug 22, 2012 : 9:24 p.m.
Completely agree, unidled! I don't know why this isn't brought up more by the media...oh wait, yes I do. They were a part of it!
MRunner73
Wed, Aug 22, 2012 : 9:08 p.m.
Coming out with this five years after the fact may be true but it stinks. To quote the last sentence..."Wienke, now a senior, has played sparingly for the Hawkeyes. He is competing this fall for the team's No. 1 punter spot." That says it all.
Theo's Brother
Wed, Aug 22, 2012 : 9:02 p.m.
Lloyd told Wienke to do the best thing for him. Simple. No story here.
Blu n Tpa
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 10:07 a.m.
Coach Hoke would do exactly what Coach Carr did. The new offense doesn't match the incoming kids skill set I would expect the outgoing coaches to answer any questions or concerns that NON-SIGNED recruits have. The young man had committed but everybody here knows that that doesn't mean squat. ferris, people who work in the admissions office at Michigan tell kids every day that their aren't a match at Michigan. Honest advice to do what's best for the student.
ex734
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 5:22 a.m.
ferris, by that logic Hoke should tell any recruit that has the option of going to stanford, northwestern and michigan they should go to stanford.
TheWay
Wed, Aug 22, 2012 : 11:46 p.m.
How exactly is turning down a Michigan education the best thing for a kid who's next option is Iowa?
saveferris
Wed, Aug 22, 2012 : 11:03 p.m.
No, Lloyd was on UM's payroll and a representative of the University. That's why it's a story.
Arboriginal
Wed, Aug 22, 2012 : 8:52 p.m.
More proof of what a class act the U of M was and is! I'm glad Michigan football is back!
Hailmary
Wed, Aug 22, 2012 : 8:43 p.m.
This is old news or gossip which was rightfully reported as a fact now. Lloyd made some questionable choices and I base that on Lloyds age. I'm close to Lloyds age and I can tell you that when you need to quit something you love it truly is painful and sometimes we strike out not really meaning to hurt those and what we love. I think Lloyd had good intentions but I think he was deeply hurt about the nudge he felt to retire and he made some emotional mistakes.
Matt Cooper
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 3:44 a.m.
Right. And just because I watched Sonny Elliott do the weather report on tv when I was a kid does not entitlte me to judge his personal character as a man such as you feel you have a right to judge Coach Carr.
Hailmary
Wed, Aug 22, 2012 : 10:44 p.m.
Yes, for the most part we humans judge other humans by what they say and do, it's called, observation. I judge a person by what they do and of course what they say. The observation on Lloyd is made by what Lloyd has said and done. When I observe Lloyd being rude to reporters as he was quite often, my observation is that reporters very often annoyed Lloyd. When I observed Lloyd doing many wonderful things such as at Motts my observation is that even though Lloyd could be cranky Lloyd was basically a good man.
Matt Cooper
Wed, Aug 22, 2012 : 9:58 p.m.
And of course you both know Coach Carr well enough on a personal level so as to judge his character such as you have...right?
D21
Wed, Aug 22, 2012 : 9:33 p.m.
No, Carr had wanted to retire all along (after the 2006 season) but then AD Martin begged him to coach another year. However, you nailed it right on the head with the other stuff in your posting :)
Blu n Tpa
Wed, Aug 22, 2012 : 8:41 p.m.
Well, if he couldn't start at Iowa as a drop back 6-5 pocket passer what were the chances of him playing ahead of Tate and DRob? 0% Which means the WCiMFH would have ran him off to save the spot for a 5-5 slot receiver and the poor kid wouldn't be able to transfer all his classes or get into a upper level university. Coach Carr did him a favor. Iowa is a good school and has a good football program. He landed on his feet. Good for him.
Blu n Tpa
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 9:58 a.m.
Read the article. He already like Iowa and he knew he wouldn't fit in the offense if he stayed in Michigan. Coach Carr agreed with that assessment and the kid went to Iowa. Do you disagree with the line of thought or do you think he should have signed with Michigan under the WCiMFH and did what? Punted? He was a highly ranked QB coming out of high school. He wanted to play and he was smart enough to figure it out. Maybe someone should ask him if he regrets not going to Michigan for Iowa. I still think "Good for him".
TheWay
Thu, Aug 23, 2012 : 12:05 a.m.
And received a Michigan education...
MassMittenz
Wed, Aug 22, 2012 : 11:10 p.m.
Agreed. He would have wasted away on the roster because of RR.