Mo the Educator

Thu, Dec 23, 2010 : 1:44 a.m.

@ Murrow That you would declare the entire SEC "cheaters" in college football is hyperbolic, to say the least. At worst, you have completely given up on the idea that U of M can win a mNC because the "cheaters" have them all locked up from now through the foreseeable future. The idea that the SEC is only better because they cheat is inherently fallacious and I sure hope that David Brandon and the U of M administration doesn't share your apparent outlook. @ Mission You're confusing my support for U of M with my support for Rodriguez. I'm not a fan of his, but if he can continue his improvement with the number of wins, then I say let's keep him unless there's a proven, slam dunk upgrade. I live in a PAC 12 state and go to a PAC 12 school. Watching Harbaugh and Stanford run roughshod over a conference that fielded 5 teams with winning records had been cool, but, I'm not convinced that he's come in to the big bad B10 and be immediately successful. Understand, I'm not backing Rodriguez, I'm backing program continuity. Fire Rodriguez and we go from a program that took almost 50 years to go through the 3 previous coaches, to one that would have it's third coach in 4 years. Programs that turn from stable to carousels turn off athletes. And again, I find it very difficult to claim that our program has not progressed in three years, when the coaching staff has more than doubled the win total. I find it impossible to completely ignore WINS when discussing the state of a program and whether it needs a new coaching staff!

truebluefan

Thu, Dec 23, 2010 : 12:56 a.m.

On January 10, the SEC will have (likely) won the past FIVE BCS championships. They are winning because schools in that conference draw upon by far the richest talent base of any conference in the country. They have superior athletes. It is a major reason why the B10 schools are looking more and more to the south to draw talent. RR has it right when he focuses recruiting on that part of the country. Tressel does it as well. Does the SEC "cheat" to attain their status? Probably not any more than any other elite programs in the country.

Mo the Educator

Wed, Dec 22, 2010 : 10:46 p.m.

@ Murrow That you would declare the entire SEC "cheaters" in college football is hyperbolic, to say the least. At worst, you have completely given up on the idea that U of M can win a mNC because the "cheaters" have them all locked up from now through the foreseeable future. The idea that the SEC is only better because they cheat is inherently fallacious and I sure hope that David Brandon and the U of M administration doesn't share your apparent outlook. @ Mission You're confusing my support for U of M with my support for Rodriguez. I'm not a fan of his, but if he can continue his improvement with the number of wins, then I say let's keep him unless there's a proven, slam dunk upgrade. I live in a PAC 12 state and go to a PAC 12 school. Watching Harbaugh and Stanford run roughshod over a conference that fielded 5 teams with winning records had been cool, but, I'm not convinced that he's come in to the big bad B10 and be immediately successful. Understand, I'm not backing Rodriguez, I'm backing program continuity. Fire Rodriguez and we go from a program that took almost 50 years to go through the 3 previous coaches, to one that would have it's third coach in 4 years. Programs that turn from stable to carousels turn off athletes. And again, I find it very difficult to claim that our program has not progressed in three years, when the coaching staff has more than doubled the win total. I find it impossible to completely ignore WINS when discussing the state of a program and whether it needs a new coaching staff!

missionbrazil

Wed, Dec 22, 2010 : 7:37 p.m.

Mo "I've said it numerous times before and I'll say it again: We need wins." Then why on earth are you backing a coach who has a LOSING record overall and an EMBARASSING record (.250 winning percentage) in the BT. Mo, you don't make any sense. You criticize Bo and yet back RR? "I don't know whether or not Rodriguez is the coach to do it, and neither does anyone else. I do know that he's added wins each of the last two seasons. That's progress." You are right Mo... if your starting point is the WORST season in the history of Michigan football (3-9), then yes technically that is progress. But look at it from the historical perspective of the entire UM program and it's rich history, then you are dead wrong... we have no progress, and we have completely gone downhill from where we have been. Plus add in the only NCAA violations in our history, and that makes it even worse (even though in your eyes these weren't "felonies"). You completely lost credibility when you criticized Bo and then are supporting RR.

Mo the Educator

Wed, Dec 22, 2010 : 5:04 p.m.

@ Blu Considering the fact that the 17 times Bo actually took Michigan to a bowl, he lost 12, how can you be convinced that the four teams he didn't take would have won anyway? Based on what? His.294 bowl record? My point in the first place was that we were overrated. I would assume that he would have lost all of them. Maybe won one. To answer your questions would be a waste of time. We both know the answers. The real point you're making is that Michigan's record is not important, and we should fire Rodriguez because the special teams play was poor. @ Murrow The implication that you have to cheat to win is yours, not mine. I've never advocated cheating. I have said, however, that I want to know that "violations" a coach has incurred. Rodriguez had too many coaches and practiced too long. Is it against the rules? Yes. Should U of M be punished? Yes. Do I think those are major programmatic problems? No. I don't conflate speeding tickets with felonies, even though both are law infractions. Regarding the SEC, the seat of power in college football is in that conference. Your broadbrush assessment of these schools as inferior and/or cheaters is specious. And to use the idea that Rodriguez is turning Big Blue into an SEC team (whatever that means) as a pejorative sounds like making excuses for losing. We don't have to cheat to win, and I don't want us to be known as a "dirty program". The idea that there are only losers and cheaters, however, disgusts me. That is exactly what losers would say. I've said it numerous times before and I'll say it again: We need wins. Obviously there are more criteria than that, but in the end, that's what matters to me as an M fan, my previous comment about program integrity notwithstanding. I don't know whether or not Rodriguez is the coach to do it, and neither does anyone else. I do know that he's added wins each of the last two seasons. That's progress. Of course, the defense has been abysmal, and the kickers poor (punting has been ok), but I don't think that's reason enough to fire him right now. On top of that, I'm not convinced that Harbaugh would win more games. Chris Petersen on the other hand? Definitely makes us a mNC contender. Within two years.

Blu-n-Tpa

Wed, Dec 22, 2010 : 12:56 p.m.

Ed, I know with out looking it up the 69 was Bo's 1st year and I actually checked the "book" to insure my accuracy. If you note the time I didn't give the coffee enough time to wake up my fingers. No excuse, thanks for the 'proof'. Better you than Mo t Edu or Lorain No-stats.

missionbrazil

Wed, Dec 22, 2010 : 12:47 p.m.

Mo "Rich Rodriguez may not be the answer, but he hasn't been given enough time to make us a NATIONALLY competitive program. That takes longer than 3 years..." JH made an improvement of + 7 wins in 3 years and an improvement of +10 wins in 4 years over a Stanford team that went 1-11 the year before he took over. Bo Pelini at Nebraska took over after a 5-7 team and has won 9, 10, and so far 10 games in his 3rd year (and he has won 2 bowl games so far). Bob Stoops took over at Oklahoma after a 5-6 year and in 2 years they won the NC. The BCS NC game this year has 2 teams with coaches in their 2ND year. And there are many more examples that show otherwise. Good coaches win conference titles and sometimes NC's, and they don't take nearly as long as RR lovers suggest that it takes. "...and is unpopular with a fan base that has been conditioned not to care about winning it all." More and more UM fans do not like RR for exactly the opposite of your argument... because we care about winning we do not want RR anymore. RR followers are the ones who do not really care about winning period, because they are tolerating and supporting a coach who has a losing record and whose best finish has been 7th in the "regional" BT.

missionbrazil

Wed, Dec 22, 2010 : 12:26 p.m.

Mo "They had a great B10 records though, and now M fans have been lead to believe that beating OSU and MSU is more important than fielding a program that can win a mNC." How are you going to get to the NC if you can't beat OSU, MSU, PSU, Iowa, or Wiscy? How is an RR best BT finish of 7th in 3 years heading to the NC game? I am not following your logic. First you have to take care of business in the BT, which we have not been doing under RR. The latter (NC) will come only if you are successful in the BT. "The previous poster who said that Michigan has been overrated for 30 years is spot-on. We've fielded a regionally competitive program for 29 of them." First off, the poster said 20 years and not 30. A "regionally competitive" program? How many times were we rated in the Top 25 in the COUNTRY at the end of these years? In the Top 10? And under RR? Also, under RR we are not even a "regionally competitive" team... we can't beat OSU, PSU, MSU,... and we're even having trouble beating some MAC teams. To bring up Bo, Mo, LC, or any other previous HC and then mention RR in the same argument is defeating your own argument. He looks really really bad when you guys mention the other HC's.

heartbreakM

Wed, Dec 22, 2010 : 12:23 p.m.

@Mo: Excuse me while I pick myself up off the floor with that laugh attack!! You convinced me!! We can win national championships, let's see, as soon as we start beating MSU, OSU, the pathetic regional B10, and hmmmm, the MAC. Though I will give RR credit--in 3 years, he has shown that he has gone from losing to the MAC (Toledo) to beating them (Bowling Green). And he has also shown such a penchant for winning national championships in his 7-8 years of Big East play that I think we should give him as long as Bo had. Of course, if he goes undefeated for that duration in the next 17 years, he will approach Bo's winning percentage.

Blu-n-Tpa

Wed, Dec 22, 2010 : 8:10 a.m.

MoEd Your statement about Bo NOT making it to a bowl game is a little less than "total and complete disclosure", wouldn't you say? His record the years he didn't make it: 1968 8-2 1970 8-3 1972 10-1 1973 10-0-1 1974 10-1 Had Michigan been ALLOWED to play in bowl games by the Big Ten, they MAY have had a chance to contend for a mNC, especially in 1973-4. During that span Michigan won/tied 4 times for the Big Ten championship. But you seem to think winning the conference isn't important. So please tell me HOW do you play for a mNC if your conference wont allow you to play in a post-season bowl? But here's the falacy of your argument: Finishing 7th in the BT isn't going to get you where you want to go either. So I'll ask you what I asked LS,(she's not "talking" to me) How would you rate the special teams play this fall for Michigan? How would you rate the special teams COACH this fall for Michigan? Who is responsible for the level of play by the special teams' for Michigan this fall? There is no reason to think that after three years of declining defensive play and a total meltdown of special teams that any amount of time will allow this COACHING staff to turn things around. Competing for a NC? UM's even competing for a BT championship! ANYMORE!

Mo the Educator

Wed, Dec 22, 2010 : 3:33 a.m.

"Let's be fair here. First of all, it's not RR's fault that his record is that. It's really Bo, Mo, and LC's fault. They set the bar too high." No, they set the bar too low. *Sacrilege alert This starts with Bo Schembechler. Because we lost repeatedly to OSU, the school mortgaged it's mythical national championship (mNC) hopes and brought Bo on. For 20 years, we accepted beating OSU, MSU, and losing the bowl game. In those 20 years he won 5 bowls, lost 12, and failed to make it 4 times. We never fielded a team that was really competent enough to win a mNC. Those three coaches had one mNC between them, and left the program with a losing bowl record. They had a great B10 records though, and now M fans have been lead to believe that beating OSU and MSU is more important than fielding a program that can win a mNC. The previous poster who said that Michigan has been overrated for 30 years is spot-on. We've fielded a regionally competitive program for 29 of them. Rich Rodriguez may not be the answer, but he hasn't been given enough time to make us a NATIONALLY competitive program. That takes longer than 3 years, and is unpopular with a fan base that has been conditioned not to care about winning it all.

Lorain Steelmen

Tue, Dec 21, 2010 : 5:34 p.m.

Spook...I love your closing comment...Rodriguez is NOT smart enough to coach this team....LMAO! What an arrogant, ridiculous comment to make. Where do you get off...making this kind of comment about a guy that has spent his life in coaching, at the D1 level. And is considered an innovator of the spread offense, and mentor to some of the biggest names in college football. You are absolutely amazing.

missionbrazil

Tue, Dec 21, 2010 : 4:47 p.m.

heartbreakM "Let's be fair here. First of all, it's not RR's fault that his record is that. It's really Bo, Mo, and LC's fault. They set the bar too high." Can't argue with that, you're right. It's not RR's fault... if we had a nickel every time we heard that we'd all be rich.

truebluefan

Tue, Dec 21, 2010 : 4:21 p.m.

Murrow - I'm sure RR had an inkling we were thin at DB because we ran a 4-3 for nearly all of the 2008 season. Same in 2009. The 2010 season was the first time we ran the 3-3-5 as the base defense. It was the base D in 2010 spring and fall camps. The demise of Woolfolk, Turner and Emilien happened just before September. Too late to change defenses for game #1, IMO. But, I would agree that the D should've morphed back into more of a 4-3 as the season progressed. For that, I fault RR and Robinson. I believe that if RR is too stubborn to give up control of the defense, then he SHOULD be fired. After all, the D is primarily responsible for the losses.

truebluefan

Tue, Dec 21, 2010 : 4:08 p.m.

johnnya2 -- Woodson is a horrible example of a successful freshman. If ratings existed back then, he'd be a 5-star lock and would likely be a top 5 player in the country out of high school. He was D-IA ready before he stepped foot on campus.

truebluefan

Tue, Dec 21, 2010 : 4:03 p.m.

heartbreakM -- the haters just love to rip RR for not having proper foresight on the defense. And they love to bring up the 2008 recruiting class. Well, let's look at who signed **for RR** in February 2008: Witherspoon (4-star), Cissoko (4-star), Brandon Smith (4-star), JT Floyd (3-star), Demens (4-star), JB Fitzgerald (4-star), Taylor Hill (4-star). Granted, some of these were recruited by Carr's staff, however, these kids DID sign on the dotted line knowing that RR was the new coach. And RR could've pulled their offers if he wanted in favor of "his" players (haters insert "5'8" slot receiver" for "his"). Make no mistake, RR signed good defensive talent in 2008.

johnnya2

Tue, Dec 21, 2010 : 3:59 p.m.

PU If you think a head coach is going to stay long with his AD picking his coordinators you are sadly mistaken. I bet that would actually become a breach of contract depending on how his contract is written. I also think it allows RR to use the excuse that if the D is bad that it was not HIS coordinator. That is just pure silliness. As for the 3-3-5 scheme. Once he saw these injuries and saw no depth,. a change was needed immediately. A good coach can change to fit the talent he has. Here is the thing about starting young players, HE CHOOSES WHO STARTS. He can use the players are young excuse until 2050. The players come and go, this is the not NFL. Based on that logic, freshman can not perform. It's funny, but i see freshman perform all over the NCAA. In fact, Cam Newton was a FIRST YEAR STARTER at Auburn in a new system. I would also point out that Charles Woodsen started his freshman year and it worked did not get lit up like the poor tackling group that was out there this season.

obama from kenya

Tue, Dec 21, 2010 : 3:55 p.m.

oops.

P U MSU

Tue, Dec 21, 2010 : 3:32 p.m.

heartbreak, "I think one of the big problems with leadership is RR's arrogance." I'd say it was more of an ignorance thing. RR was not a Big 10 guy and did not come from a program with any tradition. He did fail in this aspect. There is no defending him there. Johnny and Mission, Both mentioned basically the same thing asking why he would run the 3-3-5 with all the you players. When the decision was made in the spring, Wolfook and Floyd were both pretty good anchors in the defensive backfield. Unfortunatly both got hurt. I think that once Wolfook got hurt it was too late to try to change back to a 4-3 or 3-4. or thats how they felt. Especially since they had not seen the results of the 3-3-5 yet. It's more than obvious that it will not work in the Big10. Johnny, I think the correct decision was made with Gardner. I say this for a couple of reasons. Gardner did not want to redshirt. And The coaching staff needed to make an example of Tate. To be completely honest, for a coach that has been so beat down for no leadership, I feel that that decision was showing of leadership. Tate did not prepare in the offseason like a returning starting quarterback. He needed to make an example of him. Edward, Great point. I am not sure that RR knows enough about defense to correctly pick a new D Coordinator. Certainly, he has not show he is able to. I think that this decision should be made by DB.

heartbreakM

Tue, Dec 21, 2010 : 3:29 p.m.

@trueblue: Assuming you are correct that "there was a bare cupboard", are you meaning to tell me that there were NO strengths on the team in 2008? 2009? That our team had nothing, as if it had gone 1-11 or 0-12 the year before? If that were the case (I do not believe it be so), then why did RR not immediately attack the recruiting trails for defensive players? Forget Dorsey, as one person should not make a difference. Is recruiting not something that should correct glaring weaknesses? If that is the case, why is RR taking so long? Does that delay in reacting not say something about his coaching priorities? Does it take bottoming out on D to finally admit that you need defensive players? If LC's classes were so weak with DBs and LBs, why was that not the first priority in year I and II of RR? And for that matter, is it preordained from high school that you are good or not? I would hope not, and the development of these players just is not there, again at the feet of the coaches. Patterns are there which you are glossing over. Kumbaya.

truebluefan

Tue, Dec 21, 2010 : 3:17 p.m.

"The d-backs he recruits either can't get into the U, or they are MAC caliber." Murrow, remember when I said Carr did not recruit a single true safety or linebacker in essentially his final three seasons as coach? The DB numbers were down as well by the way. The "bare cupboard" has been proven to be a valid argument. RR has simply been taking whatever bodies he can find to fill the defensive back field. With the exception of the Dorsey circus, I actually think the recruiting in the defensive backfield has been good since RR arrived. The RR haters are better served to hang their hats on the criticism of RR's insistence on the 3-3-5 given the grim situation in the backfield, especially after it was realized that Woolfolk, Dorsey, Turner and Emilien would not see action for Michigan.

Blu-n-Tpa

Tue, Dec 21, 2010 : 3:01 p.m.

@LS Easy questions: How would you rate the special teams play for Michigan this fall? How would you rate the special teams COACH for Michigan this fall? Who's responsibility is it to put well COACHed special teams on the field for Michigan this fall? I know you wont answer, (are you 212 in another cyberspace?) but maybe you'll give it some thought anyway.

missionbrazil

Tue, Dec 21, 2010 : 2:46 p.m.

PU MSU "The defensive collapse, as you call it, cannot be soley put on the lack of depth on in the defensive backfield. But when you play 5 defensive backs in your defense it plays a big part." I know I am not the 1st person to bring this up, but if you know you are lacking in talent &/or depth in the D backfield, why insist on a system (3-3-5) that uses more D backs than others? Why not adjust to what you have and try to make up for your weakness? That makes no sense, unless you are an arrogant coach who insists on his own way and thinks so highly of himself that he can make anything work. Also, why run an offense that doesn't use much of the clock, when you know you have a terrible D? Doesn't make any sense, unless you are an arrogant coach... The only adjustment I saw RR try to make for this in a game was the OSU game, mainly in the 1st quarter. But by the 2nd quarter we got so far behind that he had to scrap that idea. Why would you wait until the last game of the year to try to make that adjustment, when it was so obvious all year that our D was terrible? Why would you keep that terrible D on the field so much? Not a great strategy, and there were no adjustments to try to make up for this weakness.

johnnya2

Tue, Dec 21, 2010 : 2:25 p.m.

All you RR defenders who keep saying rhe defensive backfield is soooo young, I would ask, if THAT is the position you are eweakest at, why would you play a 3-3-5? That means 5 of your WORST defensive position on the field. A 3-4 would get you more linebackers (Steelers best position is linebacker, so they play 4 of them). If RR thinks the D line was strongest, then logic dictates playing a 4-3. This is not hard to figure out for a first year JV football coach. The current head coach can;t figure that out because he does not understand defense or special teams. Second, to whoever says this is a great offense. They were not even the top offense in the Big Ten. Against quality opponents (Wisconsin. MSU and Ohio State) they failed miserably, and against not so quality opponents (Iowa), they also failed. Yes, they scored against Bowling Green. UM can say they have the best coach in the MAC.

johnnya2

Tue, Dec 21, 2010 : 2:09 p.m.

There are two major failures here. 1. Gardiner should have been red-shirted immediately (I thought RR didn't want to play frosh, yet did when he had TWO sophomores ahead of him) IF he gets hurt after two games next year he would NOT be eligible for a second medical red0shirt, where if he had a regualr red0shirt he could possibly have had one 2. Rich Rod is SO involved in practice he does not know about the happenings of the Big Ten? Sounds like the guy can't do multiple things at once. Sorta like putting together an offense a defense and a special teams.

heartbreakM

Tue, Dec 21, 2010 : 1:53 p.m.

I think one of the big problems with leadership is RR's arrogance. He got rid of team captains (at least until this year) because he knew better than 125 years of Michigan football history of team-elected captains. He took one of the biggest honors a players can have (paraphrase from LC, Bo, Mo) and threw it out as one of his first moves, right around the time he assigned the endowed #1 jersey to a frosh. Oh, that was right after he jettisoned all of the connections that the staff had with the Michigan way (save Fred Jackson). Who knows how it would have turned out if he kept Soup campbell or another assistant who could have educated him about Michigan football. But when he got rid of internal team leadership, I think that went a long way to no accountability internally and poor results. I will give RR credit for backing off of that this year, but it was ridiculous in the first place.

P U MSU

Tue, Dec 21, 2010 : 1:42 p.m.

Edward, I understand your frustration with people putting blame on others. Especially when "others" includes a storied coach and man such as Carr. I share your disappointment. The defensive collaps, as you call it, cannot be soley put on the lack of depth on in the defensive backfield. But when you play 5 defensive backs in your defense it plays a big part. While I cannot verify it with numbers, I would be willing to bet the defensive stoppage rate for 3rd and 5 or more was much worse than 3rd and less than 5. These are purely passing situations. I've watched each game multiple times and it's almost comical to watch these defensive backs to drop into a zone. Like most young players, they run to a spot on the field and stay there. An experiance DB knows where his spot is but can adjust to opposing players "splitting zones." We were very deficiant in that aspect of the game. That 2008 team did quit. No doubt about it. They were without a leader on that team. Henne Hart and Long all left. There were inexcusable losses that year for sure. Just as I try to forget about App State, I try to forget about that year and look to the future. Given the curcumstances, I would like to see RR get one more year. Nearly the whole team returns. I was like to see what could happen with a second year starting quarterback and a junior class he recruited.

XTR

Tue, Dec 21, 2010 : 1:06 p.m.

Lorraine "To all the RR haters on here. The bus leaves for East Lansing in 45 minutes...be on it! If you prefer, there's also a bus to Columbus in 60 minutes. They'll love ya down there!" So, if one does not see RR as the rightful coach at UM, then they are not UM fans? RR is not the UM team nor the UM program. He runs the team but when he ruins the program with negative W-L records, NCAA violations and weird public appearances, RR stopped representing UM altogether. True fans support THE TEAM. Not RR. That is why RR supporters are called RR lovers and not UM fans because they support RR blindly even if RR burns the program to the ground. ".... No coach! Is more than THE TEAM! The Team! The Team! The Team!" - Bo

missionbrazil

Tue, Dec 21, 2010 : 12:57 p.m.

Ghost "They absolutely LOVE RichRod in Columbus, East Lansing, State College, Madison, and Iowa City. Kind of the way we loved John Cooper." I'm betting RR is MUCH more popular in all of these places than John Cooper was at AA... at least he did beat us 2 times, whereas RR hasn't ever won against the teams in 4 of those places, and only once against the other... plus at least Cooper was 70-30-4 in the BT (much more competitive against other BT teams than RR, thus perhaps less popular than RR).

XTR

Tue, Dec 21, 2010 : 12:56 p.m.

"By the way, where is the guarantee that Harbaugh will succeed at Michigan?" Without being given the chance to coach at UM, one will never know. But these are guaranteed with JH. He knows the Michigan tradition, he knows the tradition and grinds of the Big Ten conference and the importance and significance of rivalry games against MSU and OSU among others. What we all know is that RR could go to 7-5 in year 3 with close losses to Indiana, Purdue and Illinois while having blowout losses against MSU, PSU, Iowa, Wisco and Ohio State. Add some NCAA violations and concert singing on the side. Lorain "They think that somehow RR is an 'outsider', but fail to recognize that Yost, Crisler, and Schembechler were also 'outsiders'!" Bo was an "outsider" as he did not play or coach at Michigan but the difference between Bo and Richie Rod (aside from the skill in the art of coaching) is that Bo was from the Big Ten and knew the grind of the Big Ten. His mindset from the start was to make a team that will be competitive in the Big Ten. It was like Florida hiring Muschamp who came from Georgia and coached at LSU and Auburn, he was hired by Florida because he knew the SEC conference. Bo was a true blue Big Ten guy before he became the godfather of the "Michigan Man" culture. RR was not a Big Ten guy, he was a Big East guy and he brought the Big East culture (recruiting style, offense/defense and coaching style) to the Big Ten. We all know what happened.

heartbreakM

Tue, Dec 21, 2010 : 12:41 p.m.

@Brazil: Let's be fair here. First of all, it's not RR's fault that his record is that. It's really Bo, Mo, and LC's fault. They set the bar too high. And second, let's look at the bright side. When RR finishes his 20th year of coaching, if he is able to win every game until then without a loss, he will come close to the winning percentages of his predecessors you quoted.

missionbrazil

Tue, Dec 21, 2010 : 12:30 p.m.

Lorain "They think that somehow RR is an 'outsider', but fail to recognize that Yost, Crisler, and Schembechler were also 'outsiders'!" Dear Lorain, please don't put RR in the same sentence as Yost, Crisler, Bo; or LC, or even Gary Moeller. You shouldn't even put them in the same paragraph, or even the same thread, and maybe not even on the same site. RR does not belong with these other fine men. 1st: because none of the fine men had any NCAA violations, except you know who. 2nd: Mr. Yost's winning percentage AT UM:.833,.778 BT Mr. Crisler's winning percentage AT UM:.805,.777 BT Bo's winning percentage AT UM:.796,.850 BT Mr. Moeller's winning percentage AT UM:.758,.775 BT Mr. Carr's winning percentage AT UM:.753,.779 BT RR's (losing) percentage AT UM:.417,.250 BT (I stress the percentage AT Michigan; that's all that matters in this discussion; not what he did at Salem, or Glenville State, or WVU)

Joe

Tue, Dec 21, 2010 : 12:24 p.m.

And, one can only wonder why a true Michigan fan would want to continue with a coach who has documented coaching integrity issues?

P U MSU

Tue, Dec 21, 2010 : 12:24 p.m.

Edward, I truely love your passion for Michigan Football. As a passionate fan myself I truely to appriciate that. I do find, what i believe to be, flaws in your reasoning. Let me explain. "These same players in 2007 went 9-4; top 25; 6-2 in conference; victories over three T25 teams." Look at who they lost. NFL Quarterback. NFL Runningback. #1 pick NFL Left tackle. Now if you were to build a team from all available players you do what? Pick a QB, then a left tack to protect your QB, then a runningback. A least that is what I would do. 12 returning starters on that 2008 team but major losses and key positions. There was also an entirely new playbook. If you remember, that defense wasn't too bad. It was the offense that was terrible in 2008. I think the defense ranked around the 50's, but had the offense been able to sustain some drives that rank would have been much improved. "The d-backs he recruits either can't get into the U, or they are MAC caliber." 2008 Cissoko 4-star. 4th best cornerback in the country. Floyd 3-star Athelete. Recruited buy ACC and SEC B Smith 4-start. 11th best Safety in the country 2009 V Emilien 4 star. 14th best safety in the country. Beat out OSU for him. Mike Jones 3 star. 25th best corner in the country. Beat out USC, Aubrun and others. J turner 4 star. 3rd best safety in the country. Beat out rest of Big 10 for him. 2010 C Avery 3 star. Beat out Stanford SEC and MAC schools for him C Christian 4 star. 8th best Corner in the country. Dorsey 4 star. 13th best safety in country. C Johnson 3 star 33rd best Safety in country. Tolber 3 start. Beat out Wisc Cincy ILL for him. With 120 D-1 schools out there I would say that the guys above are pretty good. It has been unfortunate that the guys recruited to be depth players are starters. Dorsey Turner Cissoko Smith all gone. As to your pediction on what people will say, you are probably correct. That is the situation we are in.

Lorain Steelmen

Tue, Dec 21, 2010 : 11:58 a.m.

To all the RR haters on here. The bus leaves for East Lansing in 45 minutes...be on it! If you prefer, there's also a bus to Columbus in 60 minutes. They'll love ya down there!

XTR

Tue, Dec 21, 2010 : 11:47 a.m.

I still don't know why RR has to remain as coach nor if RR is better than Lloyd Carr of Jimmy H. RR's record on and off the field speak for itself. From Total Wins to 0-3 against OSU and MSU in rivalry games to poor PR to turning the banguet as his mini concert.

heartbreakM

Tue, Dec 21, 2010 : 11:39 a.m.

@lorain: YOu trip yourself up on the comparison of RR to Yost, Crisler, Schembechler. First of all, nobody compares to Yost. And if he was an outsider in 1901, it is a different era now and it is a bad comparison. As far as Crisler: I don't know enough, but he came from Princeton which was a powerhouse. Need I say more? Bo? His background was a B10 guy and a midwestern guy/Ohio guy. He coached against Michigan, recruited many of the same athletes (read his book about Dierdorf), and was trained by Woody. RR: Never had been at Michigan stadium. Did not know much if anything about the Big 10: be it players, stadiums, coaches, traditions. Even Bo did not know about MSU-UM tradition until he got whacked by MSU in his first year, and did not lose to them again until 1978. So, your comparison is way off. I think it is not 100% necessary to have big ten experience to be a successful coach in Michigan, but I think it is very advantageous to have at least been involved in the B10 to succeed. And at Michigan, just as at OSU and MSU, you better get those rivalries if you are to be successful. Tressel clearly did, as he called out M on that first night in February 2001. RR? Still waiting for him to not mention kumbaya.

Joe

Tue, Dec 21, 2010 : 11:35 a.m.

Lorain....UM SUPPORTER for over 35 years, but I wasn't aware of the "had to attend UM" requirement in order to support UM. I guess I shouldn't have gone to the games, or bought, and still WEAR, the UM shirts/hats/sweatshirts. huh? My bad for not reading the fine print.

Joe

Tue, Dec 21, 2010 : 10:30 a.m.

Thanks 3 and Out, Mission and ERM. It's just so sad to see people ripping Bo, LC and JH, without real facts to back their accusations while not willing to admit that their are facts that show that their man IS without integrity or class as a coach. Blu - totally agree with your proposed new screening process!! :) Lorain - personally speaking I think you (chose) to misundertand those who are not RR supporters. You (chose) to assume that not supporting RR automatically means that they do not support the team (players). What proof do you have of that? Have you seen those people constantly bash the players? Speaking just for myself, my issues are with RR ONLY! I still root for the players to do their very best in each game. I do believe that the kids are trying their hearts out. To me, unfortunately, they haven't been given the proper coaching to succeed, and that falls on the head coach. I sat and watched the defense make the same mistakes in the OSU game that they made in the UConn game. Is that really the fault of the players? They do what they have been told and taught to do. And the special teams??? More than enough said!

Lorain Steelmen

Tue, Dec 21, 2010 : 9:51 a.m.

The LC defenders on here don't want to admit that Carr allowed this program to deteriorate badly. I understand that they are frustrated, but they are taking out their frustrations on RR who, had nothing to do with the sad state of the prgram when he came in. They even blame RR for Mallet leaving, when Mallet was, in effect, gone before RR even got here. Then, to make matters worse, they think Harbaugh is going to come in here, and improve things, when Harbaugh's record in his first three years at Stanford, is not any better than RR, despite the fact that RR had to start from scratch. They think that somehow RR is an 'outsider', but fail to recognize that Yost, Crisler, and Schembechler were also 'outsiders'! They would have attacked these guys as well. This program needed a good cleaning out, and it takes more than 1 or 2 years to get that done. If these RR haters were really UM fans they would get behind these players, and coaches and support them. But no, they have their own personal egos to support, which comes ahead of the school, or the program.

P U MSU

Tue, Dec 21, 2010 : 9:45 a.m.

I've already debated the Llyod Carr issues weeks ago. But let me recap. In Carr's last three years of recruiting, he recruited 7 defensive backs. The average number of DB's recruited from top 10 programs in those same three years was 11. 7 would have been fine if there had not been a coaching change. Transfers are a natural reaction of a coaching change. It happens at every program with every coaching change. Personally, I never had a problem with LC and still to today do not blame anything on LC. It has been a perfect storm of different things that has cause this defensive backfield to be thin and young. The only reason people who support RR bring up LC's name is because people who dislike RR put the entire blame on him. There are a lot of things that factor into what has happened here and if everyone could agree to this argument would not have to come up. Who am I blaming? Bill Martin, Rich Rod, Robinson, Llyod Carr, D Warren, B Cissiko, J Turner, T Woolfork, and D Dorsey - the perfect storm.

missionbrazil

Tue, Dec 21, 2010 : 9:25 a.m.

3 And Out " When told what Rodriguez said, Jim Mallett insisted his son has not made a decision. "Coach knows more than I do, I guess," Jim Mallett told the AP. nice post from CBSSports.com about the Malletts. If I am Mr. Mallett in that spot I would be more than just a little irked at RR for saying something to the press before an actual decision was made. You could possibly interpret that as RR saying he didn't want his son at UM, and he did not have an intention of using him as his QB. That sounds like a big mistake by RR to open his mouth before a decision was made.

missionbrazil

Tue, Dec 21, 2010 : 8:46 a.m.

Joe, you are definitely right... those are the worst things about our situation with RR. Then throw in the sad performance in 3 years on top of all that, and it is absolutely time for a change and a new direction for our program. We at least need to get back to having honorable people running the program. Ghost "Indeed, it is sad and classless, but they are merely modelling themselves on their leader who accepts no responsibility for anything that has happened in the last three years."... that is exactly why they love RR; for them he is a perfect fit. It is ironic that the RR lovers are the ones that call us "haters", when they are actually the ones who are ripping and "hating" honorable men like LC, JH,... and sometimes even Bo. When you have to try to tear down honorable and successful men like these to build up your own guy, you have sunken to an even lower level.

Blu-n-Tpa

Tue, Dec 21, 2010 : 8:16 a.m.

Coach Lloyd Carr was and continues to be an honest and humble man who during most of his adult like gave his heart and soul to honor the University of Michigan. 30 years! He worked hard, coached his players up, and taught them to be better, both on and off the field. But some people out there, having nothing like his humility and graciousness, try to tear him down to "protect" their position in the debate over the HC at Michigan. His success is obvious; overall record, in Big Ten play, vs Top 25 opponets, and in post-season bowl games. A record ALL Michigan fans should honor and respect. Defend you position based on the current coaching staff successes and faillings. If you can't then maybe you should re-evaluate how to got to where you are in this discussion. Since these postings are regularly screened for content that is offensive or as attacking another poster, I would suggest a new guideline. If a post is found to be factually challenged, it should be removed with the note: "Post failed the smell test. Please retry with documentation or delete/remove unsustainable opinion." It would make for a more interesting thread and improve the quality of the website. That is the point, isn't it!

3 And Out

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 10:25 p.m.

+1 on your post Joe....but with RR what NC are they expecting?? lol

Joe

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 10:07 p.m.

Folks I am not areal fan of RR. I keep seeing all of the stats for the RR years, and they are important. But my real issue with RR is his obvious lack of integrity as a coach. He was informed in writing while at WVU that he was violating NCAA rules. He chose to ignore those warnings while at WVU, brought that illegal process to UM; where he got caught. He did admit that he broke the rules at UM (after a lot of behind closed doors meetings with the administration and their lawyers, and lots of tears in front of the cameras), but then he lied to the NCAA, the administrtion, his players and all of us by saying that he didn't know that what he was doing at UM was against the rules. I'm sorry, but I really don't want a coach like that at UM. I guess for Lorain, Theo, et al that winning a NC is much more important than integrity.

3 And Out

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 9:50 p.m.

Heartbreak...we know that RR was/is just a terrible fit for Michigan. He tore down the program arrogantly thinking that he needed 'his smurfs' in order for his system to work.... terrible decision, not a good coach who can work with the talent left for him...his record shows that everywhere he has gone. His next job after UM cans him may be awhile because the word is out among ADs that when you hire Rich Rod, you are tearing down your program and it will take years to rebuild it, if at all. The sad thing is to read RR drinkers here ripping Lloyd Carr, Harbaugh or anyone else in some sad attempt to discredit other great coaches in order to build their guy up...sad and classless.

3 And Out

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 9:47 p.m.

CBSSports.com wire reports Jan. 8, 2008 ANN ARBOR, Mich. -- Rich Rodriguez does not expect to coach wide receivers Mario Manningham and Adrian Arrington or quarterback Ryan Mallett at Michigan. Manningham and Arrington will skip their senior seasons and Mallett will transfer, according to Rodriguez. "Those are the indications I've gotten," Rodriguez told the Associated Press on Tuesday night. "I've talked to all three at various times recently. I talked to Adrian today, and he told me he's leaning toward going pro. "We wish all of them the best." When told what Rodriguez said, Jim Mallett insisted his son has not made a decision. "Coach knows more than I do, I guess," Jim Mallett told the AP.

heartbreakM

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 9:41 p.m.

This whole story of "Mallett would have left anyway" may or may not be true. But bottom line is, LC did NOT leave the cupboard bare. It is not LC's fault that Mallett transferred. When LC retired, and when he prepared the practices for the Citrus Bowl, Mallett was part of the team, as were many other very good players. Once RR took over the team, all of those players became HIS players, and what he did with them (or didn't) had absolutely nothing to do with Lloyd. Lloyd smartly stepped out of the spotlight and did not interfere one iota with RR's running of the program. He is probably quite chagrined to see how the players that he recruited have been coached and blamed, but give Carr credit. He has not interfered with RR running the program his way. And those who claim that Martin hired RR to 'bring the program into the 21st century'--RR was hired as a third choice, after Miles and Schiano quite publicly rebuffed Michigan. There was an air of desparation. Michigan needed a coach. Not a coach to 'bring them into 21st century' but a coach. He is allowed to coach any way he deems necessary, but nobody in their right mind at that time or now would have advocated ripping down and destroying all that was good with Michigan football to implement an offensive system in 4-5 years. And nobody but nobody would have advocated flat out ignoring defense by the head coach (self-admitted).

3 And Out

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 9:40 p.m.

amzack... no. There is an article out there from the AP where Rich Rod announced "Mallet will not be back"....and the AP asked Mr. Mallet, Mallets father about that and he was like "what??? that is news to us we have never told RR that" so yeah...another RR mistake...

amzack

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 9:15 p.m.

missionbrazil: Mallet was technically on the roster when RR arrived. But he told teammates he was transferring before RR was hired. Mallet wouldn't meet with RR when RR arrived if you recall - mentally Mallet was already gone. Source is Don Dufek's article published months ago. So, RR had Sheridan and Threet his first year. Regarding Will Campbell: Will is too slow for D-line. He arrived at camp out of shape and word from the coaching staff leaked out that he doesn't have the best work ethic. Don't think he is slow? Watch him during warm-ups and decide for yourself. Needless to say, the coaches waived the red shirt and tried him at D due to depth issues - moving him to O-line was the obvious move (plus it was a move Will requested). Putting him on O-line right away wouldn't have mattered - he wouldn't have made the 2-deep anyway.

heartbreakM

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 9:04 p.m.

It's funny Lorain: I was listening to Cris Carter on ESPN Mike and mike this AM, and they were talking about that amazing punt return and onside kick that Philly had yesterday to beat the Giants. Carter (a Buckeye, I know, but he could score TDs) said that "special teams are 1/3 of the game and important like you wouldn't believe (paraphrased)". He went onto say that anyone who thinks special teams is not important does not pay attention to the game, or something like that. Well, I wonder what he would say about our complete awesome head coach who seems to think that special teams needs no coaching, and would also wonder what Carter would say about our coach who admitted publicly this year that he does not spend time on Defense. Carter probably would say, "keep him" as he is a buckeye, but his football self would be appalled.

tzgoblue

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 8:41 p.m.

Everyone continues to argue back and forth on the outcome of this situation. If anybody doesn't think DB is spending almost every waking moment on this deal, think again. He absolutely knows the importance of this decision. He gets reminded everyday by the administration, regents, former players, donars, influencial alum and yes, us the average fan that love our team. I look for anything I can find multiple times a day concerning this situation, there just isn't much new if any information out there. DB is keeping this thing under wraps pretty damn good. I believe this in itself lends to a change in the making. I like others feel JH is the perfect fit for the job, as do most others including the people that probably have some influence. I don't agree it has to JH or nothing on making a change. If the current coach isn't the right fit for the job, which it is evident he isn't by his result over the past 3 years, then keeping him because you can't get JH doesn't make things any better. In fact it will probably make them worse. There are other candidates out there that I am sure DB is aware of and has been doing his homework on. If he can't get JH and does indeed turn to Brady Hoke, then I believe he will do so feeling strongly he is capable of turning this program back into a winner. Whoever is hired as HC can be highly sucessful if they make the right choices of coordinators, assistants and position coaches. That in my opinion would determine if Hoke could be successful. I look at how Iowa and Wisconsin take recuiting classes ranked in the mid 40's and coach them up to compete not only for B10 titles, but stay in the hunt for BCS games as well. They have HC that have assembled outstanding support staffs and took 2 and 3 star recruits and turned them into champions.

missionbrazil

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 7:01 p.m.

Lorain "As far as Carr goes, he effectively retired in 2001, but kept cashing Martin's checks, until 2007. His defenses were not much better than RR's" One more attempt here to be reasonable Lorain... first off, I have absolutely nothing to say about that amazing statement of yours about LC "effectively retired in 2001 but kept cashing checks until 2007". That statement of yours says it all. LC hater all the way.... but "His defenses were not much better than RR's?"... did you not read the national ratings for LC's and RR's defenses in my previous post... LC's WORST rated D from 2003-2007 was 38th in the country; the average D rating for his last 5 years was 20th in the country (would have been much better had it not been for 1 down year that was 38th)... RR's BEST D rating was 80th in the country, and the average for 3 years is 88th. I know that somehow I am probably "distorting" the facts, but there is a HUGE difference between an average rating of 20th in the country compared to an average of 88th. 88 >>>>>>>>>>>> 20. 88th is MUCH worse than 20th. 88th is more than 4 times worse than 20th.

Billy

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 7:01 p.m.

actually you are both wrong...kind of. Luck is a Junior, red-shirted Sophomore. Denard is a TRUE sophomore in his first year of serious playing time. I am on the fence on RR or another coach. I would like to see Michigan hire another spread coach, like Auburn's offensive coordinator. In RR's defense, he has made progress on the offensive side of the ball and he had a terrible year for injuries on defense. He lost both of his starting CBs early in the year. Woolfolk didn't even make the opener and Floyd was hurt in the first few games. That said, I HATE the 3-3-5! His stubbornness has irked me all year. Switch back to the 4-3 and stop the run. I would have liked to see more blitzing also. Yes we would have been susceptible to the big play, but we gave up big plays anyway. At least with some pressure we could have forced some mistakes. Give D-Rob and the offense more possessions and they could have been even more dynamic.

missionbrazil

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 6:35 p.m.

Lorain "The usual RR haters such as Ghost, 3&out, and yourself, refuse to acknowledge that, but it doesn't change facts. Their comments are nothing more than retreads, of the same tired old inaccuracies and distortions." Please enlighten us with some actual "facts" or stats that back up your statements. We have provided TONS of stats & facts & records to back up ours. I believe you actually consider your opinions and statements by themselves to be "facts", and anyone who disagrees with you is a hater or is ridiculous.

BlueGator

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 5:51 p.m.

@Lorain - FWIW, I believe Stanford's starting QB, Andrew Luck, is only a sophomore.

Lorain Steelmen

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 5:36 p.m.

Mission brazil; Mallet left when RR came in. So RR did NOT have him as a QB in year one...where have you been? Sheridan and Threat played here in '08...but not Mallet Boren also left when RR came, not wanting to earn his spot, he made the ridiculous 'family values' comment. He was lazy. He left RR with an Oline, ill-suited to the offense RR wanted to install. Again...where have you been? Over the past three seasons this offense has made remarkable improvements. The usual RR haters such as Ghost, 3&out, and yourself, refuse to acknowledge that, but it doesn't change facts. Their comments are nothing more than retreads, of the same tired old inaccuracies and distortions. Frankly, it's boring. As far as Carr goes, he effectively retired in 2001, but kept cashing Martin's checks, until 2007. His defenses were not much better than RR's, yet LC was playing 'experienced' kids throughout. As the scores against UM mounted, Martin decided it was time to join the 21st century, and get a coach in here that could put in a new offense. RR was given 5 years to do exactly that. He is only now, at the end of year 3, and if given the next 2 years,as he was promised, he'll have this team competing for NC's. The turn around is on schedule. This anti-RR garabge is getting pretty old! Finally, all the Harbugh lovers, fail to acknowledge, that JH had virtually the identical record as RR, in his first three years at Stanford...turning around that program. JH has a senior QB this year, and USC and UCLA are having 'down years', so everyone thinks he is something special. He's not. DB will not bring in a new coach, and set the program back three years. Any one, JH or not, would have to start over from scratch, and that takes time. If DB were to bring in another 'spread offensive' coach, he could use the basis RR put in place...but why not just keep RR and be done with it? All DB would do in that case, is show every coach in the system, that you can't count on UM to stand by it's commitments.

missionbrazil

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 4:20 p.m.

Lorain "Rodriguez will be back next year, and he should be. He has demonstrated that he can coach..."... how has he demonstrated that he can coach, by virtue of his 16-21 record and 6-18 record in the BT? By his dismal record against OSU, MSU, PSU, Iowa, and Wiscy? By having the WORST season ever at UM, and then following that up by only the 2nd losing season in many years? "...by virtue of his turning around the offense."... RR's best O rating was this year, and it was only 22nd in the country. And the team was LAST in the BT in turnover margin, and 9th in the BT in Red Zone efficiency. Not very good for a supposed offensive guru or genius. "When he started he had no o-line"... FALSE... see 3 & Out's post above yours about who returned (including 4 of the O line) "no QB's"... FALSE... Mallett was there. "Now he'll be able to recruit and coach the defense as well."... NOW he'll be able to do it? You mean he wasn't doing that in his 3 years? Must not have been, cuz our D has gone from 27th to 110th in the country (worst D's in UM history under RR). "Carr's defenses, were poor since 2001"... FALSE. Under LC our D was rated # 23 in the country in 2007, # 8 in 2006, # 22 in 2005, # 38 in 2004, # 7 in 2003... RR's D ratings: # 83 in 2008, # 80 in 2009, and # 102 in 2010... please quit saying things that are not true, just to try to make a point. "And looking back on it, UM won in spite of Carr, not because of Carr... As for the haters on here, I have found that it is very 'chic' to be negative, and those that are, seldom are able to do anything on ther own. They get their kicks, out of tearing others down." It seems you and other RR supporters "get your kicks" by trying to make LC look bad and tearing him down, so you don't have to talk about your guy RR. Please stop trying to compare RR to LC, because RR is going to look bad when you do. How can you try to tear down a guy (LC) that was 122-40 and 81-23 in the BT to a guy that is 16-21 and 6-18 in the BT? How can you compare a guy (LC) that won 5 BT titals and was 2nd 4 times to a guy whose best finish in the BT was 7th? I would advise that you get another strategy, because LC is making RR look really bad when you look at the facts and the stats and the records. You are entitled to be an RR supporter, but let's quit using all of the false statements, and stop trying to blame LC and others, and stop with the "haters" comments... by your own logic that makes you an LC hater.

heartbreakM

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 2:28 p.m.

Nobody I know of is calling for Brady Hoke as our coach. I sure am not. I would think he'd be a mistake. I don't know of him well, but he does not seem seasoned enough or dynamic enough. We'll know when we play them, I guess. But in contrast to coach Rod, one thing that Hoke brings is an understanding of B10 football, which after 3 years, RR has not shown.

P U MSU

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 2:24 p.m.

All I can say is be careful what you wish for. Brady Hoke's 38-46 record sure has me excited about our future. At least he's a "Michigan Man." /end sarcasim

heartbreakM

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 1:23 p.m.

@Lorain: That's a new one. Winning in spite of Carr. Hmmmm. I guess Michigan has lost unprecedented numbers of B10 games, getting whupped, in spite of their coach RR. That's the way to deflect blame. Well, Arrington and Manningham were still juniors when Carr retired. I don't blame them for going pro, as they would have been utilized poorly by RR (they're LC's guys). The Oline was a veteran line. Alex Mitchell was a guy who could have come back and chose not to, driven out by RR, and Boren also. I don't want to hear about laziness. I am talking, they were on roster when LC left. Mallett too. Experience RBs, experience D-line (all returning starters), experienced LBs, 3 DBs (Warren and Woolfolk, and Trent). I don't want to hear those lame excuses. But if you want to be like your hero-coach, RR, excuses is all that you have. Sure don't have results.

Lorain Steelmen

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 1:09 p.m.

Rodriguez will be back next year, and he should be. He has demonstrated that he can coach, by virtue of his turning around the offense. When he started he had no o-line, or QB's. Now he'll be able to recruit and coach the defense as well. Again he started with precious little. RR's detractors give Carr a pass, but in all honesty, except for 2006, Carr's defenses, were poor since 2001. It was a joke watching, as opponents simply passed to the middle of the zone on third down, and stayed on the field against us. Tressel made a carrer of this, and his offenses were not particulary good either. In fact, in 2006, osu put up 42 points on UM. And that was on Carr's kids! I always felt, that Henne, Hart, Long, Arington, and Manningham took this program on their backs, from 2004 to 2007. And looking back on it, UM won in spite of Carr, not because of Carr. Rodriguez will rebuild this program, and have UM contending the NC's. Most of the negativity surrounding RR, has been generated by the media, in particular the Freep. They seem to have their noses out of joint. Maybe they have a Spartan agenda going, or maybe they just want to sell papers, but virtually all of it, has turned out to be nothing more than hot air. As for the haters on here, I have found that it is very 'chic' to be negative, and those that are, seldom are able to do anything on ther own. They get their kicks, out of tearing others down. Talk is cheap...I don't put much stock in it. Finally, as for Miles, and Harbaugh...they are LSU and Stanford coaches. Thats' where they'll stay, unless, they want to try the NFL on for size. They won't be coming to AA...and that's fine.

heartbreakM

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 1:07 p.m.

@jeff: I think a lot of people on these boards feel that you only change coaches if you have your "guy" (in this case?? JH) and otherwise hold on. The tough thing is leaving RR floating in the breeze. I don't think that is right to do from an employer perspective, but he is under contract so they can do that if they please. You are right--you don't make a change just for change sake, at this point in the game. But I don't think you shouldn't make a change just because you are afraid either. As far as I am concerned, it was very obvious in year one that he was a bad fit, but I am on my own island here. But if the players are really good quality players (which they would hope to be), and if JH is really a good coach (he would appear to be), he will use the talent he has and coach them fine. Really, system is less important than fundamentals, ie blocking, catching, footwork, knowing the checkdowns. I have strong confidence that JH would do just fine. And you think about the defensive changes that would be instituted? Do you really have confidence in RR in hiring a coaching staff after the last 3 years?

jeff

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 12:57 p.m.

Having Will Campbell switching to the O-line is not even worth mentioning guys. Or, to the people who are arguing that we handled Devin Gardners' redshirt year wrong. Who cares? He's going to get a medical redshirt anyway. That's a done deal. I'm not hearing a lot of people talk about what happens when Jim Harbaugh decides that he's not interested in the Michigan job. Do you still want to fire RR then? The football program is coming to another big crossroad in two weeks. What's plan C? I believe the best thing for the program right now is to try to lure Harbaugh and if he's not interested. Keep RR around for another year and make him fire the whole defensive staff. Whoever they would hire would have to be a lot better. It's getting late in the ballgame for recruiting right now to go on a major head coaching search. My big question is if lets say we hire Harbaugh. What in the hell is he going to do his first couple of years with a bunch of spread players? Especially Denard? He can work with the talent we have at O-line I'm sure. But, I think he would have to train Gardner to be a drop back passer with his size and all and move Denard to the slot. Or, turn Denard into a running back. I know one thing is for sure. Harbaugh won't be running the spread. That means another true rebuild. As much as I think it maybe the time to go another direction. I would love to see Denard run this offense for the next two years. If we could just come up with an average defense. This team could be really awesome. But, however this shakes out guys for the sake of the program. Everyone needs to support the head football coach. This divided Michigan nation is bringing down the Big House!!!!!

GoblueinNE_PA

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 11:21 a.m.

HBM I wouldn't worry too much about the recruits committing to RichRod. Kids say a lot of things and none of it matters until signing day. If we get the right guy in here, whether its Harbaugh, Miles, or whomever, the recruits will come. Besides, with many of these kids in this class, it's Michigan or a non-AQ school, so their choices are limited. We'll be OK.

P U MSU

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 10:57 a.m.

heartbreak, The Freep is just selling stories. The fact of the matter is that some players are coaches players and some are school players. It is the same across the country. I said this weeks ago. There are recruits like Hayes who love the school and "hope RR will be back next year, but either way I will be a wolverine." There are also players like Dee Hart who will only be coming to Michigan is RR is here because he feels he would be best in his system. I don't think you should take offense to this. It is like this everywhere. I would love for every player to love the school so much that it wouldnt matter who the coach is. But I can understand that some of these kids want to make the NFL too. I think Mallet loved Michigan but felt he would improve his draft status in a pro-style system. Someone like Dee Hart feels his electric talents would be on showcase more in a spread system. I cannot fault these kids for fulfilling their dreams to make it into the NFL.

heartbreakM

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 9:23 a.m.

Interesting thing in the Det News today about recruiting. The article says that all these recruits are "committing to Rodriguez" and not the program per se. That is a dangerous way to be, in my opinion. We always hear that Michigan recruits itself. Well, if that is the case, then exactly what kind of sales job is Rodriguez giving these recruits? It is a concern for me. I want people who take pride in being at Michigan, not just in Rodriguez' camp. Obviously, the head coach sets the pace and is a draw anywhere, but you need players who want to be here, at this institution.

missionbrazil

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 9:08 a.m.

dtones "One last thing, over the last 20 seasons, Michigan has been the 2nd most overrated team in College Football based on where they started the season in the rankings and where they finished."... there is another way to look at that. UM was always highly thought of and respected, especially because of men like Bo, LC,... and we had a clean program, with no NCAA violations. Sure UM did not end up ranked as high as they started some seasons, but for example LC coached 13 seasons and in 12 of them we finished in the Top 25. How many times have we been in the Top 25 under RR? These days this so called "overrated thing" has gone away, because now we do not have the respect we used to. And that is putting it nicely. To some we have become a joke. So don't worry about starting the season highly rated (or finish highly rated either), because RR has taken care of that. Are you happy now? Now you don't have to worry about that anymore.

Blu-n-Tpa

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 8:44 a.m.

Hey Brazil, 3, et al, what happened? I go watch my son play baseball and the world is spinning backwards, again. To recap, I'm NOT a hater, I see things as they are NOW, not some pin point from years gone by. I try to see the WHOLE picture and I look for trends so I can try to figure out what's to come. Everyone knows the numbers: Losing record in the BT. Check. Back-to-back worst defensive football teams in Michigan history. Check. Worst football season in Michigan history. Check. Worst three years on record vs winning teams in the BT. Check. Coach Carr forced out after losing to App State. Check. Coach Carr taking responsibility for his failings. Check. Michigan football pleading guilty to 4 of the 5 NCAA charges leveled during the RR tenure. Check. First time Michigan football has EVER been on NCAA probation is under current coaching staff. Check. After suffering awful regular season ending loses to Wisconsin and OSU not a SINGLE change has been make by the head coach. Check. And, finally, not being able to coach what you have or knowing where to play the talent that's currently on your roster to give Michigan a chance to succeed. CHECK. Of ALL the CHECKS, not being able to COACH your players to compete is the biggest because that is your job description. So what do you do if the HC refuses to make adjustments to better the team's defense and special teams? Find a new coach. CHECK Happy Holidays and Go Blue!

heartbreakM

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 7:06 a.m.

@dtones: Harbaugh totally overhauled the Stanford system. He plays a tough offense and defense, much in the spirit of Bo football, with a multiple set pro attack. Before he got there? NOt much of anything, to be honest. But I use the 4 year rule so that one year does not skew the results. Use any number of years you want. Do you think that RR is the first coach in history to overhaul a system? Anyone who takes a new coaching job, or new CEO, or any position of leadership of a successful organization knows that if you want to change the system, you must first work with who is there and make changes gradual to improve. If you make changes too quick, you will either be unsuccessful over arrogance, or you will alienate the team/organization over unneeded change. Michigan did not need to be revamped. They were a successful, if not 'underachieving' organization. (Though underachieving is in quotes because who knows if they did not max out, especially given such poor results under our current coaches). Maybe RR is achieving all he can with the talent pool that's there, and maybe we are all thinking that he can't coach while actually he is just bringing in the wrong talent but doing all he can with what he has. But that would be an indictment of how he is a bad fit, too. In any case, JH has made more of his opportunity than RR has, and that is the point. JH's results are heads and shoulders above RR's no matter how you cut it. And LC did not leave a bad team behind. He just left a team that got coached really poorly.

Keiffer

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 10:35 p.m.

For all you "Harbaugh Honkers" out their. Double up on your medication dose and get a reality check. He's will not and wont come to coach Michigan. He has better class than that. RR will prob stay as his tears soaked his resume so much that nobody can recall what was on it. If he can get a good recruiting class in great. However, you have to coach the kids into being chanpions. Recruit some of the top defensive prospects in the country. But D-Rob cant coach then out of a wet paper bag. As far as Devin, great strategy. I hope they can back his injuries up with the proper medical documentation or else there goes another violation. My outlook, RR stays. Michigan goes 7-6. RR cries a flood in an Ann Arbor banquet but the athletic director doesnt buy it this time in 2011.

dtones520

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 10:24 p.m.

Edward Murrow, I'm pretty sure that when you are ranked 5th in the country and have national championship aspirations, losing to a school like App. State is worse than anything. There is a reason that is considered by most the biggest upset in college football history. Michigan losing to Toledo doesn't even make the list. By the way, what were you saying about Michigan football after that App. State loss? How did you feel about Lloyd Carr then?

dtones520

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 10:20 p.m.

HeartbreakM, you bring up the previous 4 years before both Harbs and RR were hired at their respective schools, but you leave out the fact that Stanford did not completely overhaul their system. Michigan did. So, the previous four years are a lot easier to use in Jim Harbaugh's case than Rich Rod's. It's not Rich Rod's fault that Bill Martin offered the job to him knowing what type of Football Rich plays. That type of football is not what Michigan football was. So people get on Rodriguez's case because he is the head coach. But he is the head coach that was hired into a terrible situation created by his AD. The NCAA violations are his fault, I'm not disputing that. He has not done a perfect job coaching, I'm not disputing that. But the people on sites like this constantly bashing Rodriguez completely ignore all of the good he has done in his tenure as well and diminish his achievements. You aren't doing the program any good by constantly bringing this negative light on it. By the way, where is the guarantee that Harbaugh will succeed at Michigan?

3 And Out

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 9:31 p.m.

Seasons Greetings to All with this little ditty: On the Twelfth day of Christmas, Coach Rich Rod sent to me Twelve Men on the Field Eleven More Excuses Ten Missed Tackles Nine Rival Losses Eight Walk On Safetys Seven First Half Points Six Big Ten Wins Five Lion Kings Four Violations Three Slot Receivers Two Holding Calls And a Josh Groban CD

3 And Out

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 9:14 p.m.

clarklaker...amen to that! I was just over at the OSU Scout message board and those fans are just scoffing and ridiculing Rich Rod...saying that the "smurf fest up North" never ends and smacking their heads at how bad things have gotten at UM under RR and...how they compete more with MSU than UM.... nuff said, RR has embarrassed us enough.

clarklaker

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 8:51 p.m.

hey theo 7 points against ohio state.0 wins against teams that matter.Jim Harbaugh gets the rivalry. Rich Rod doesnt.In three years our defense has got progressivly worse and a3-3-5 prevent wont work. The damage is done and michigan needs a fresh start with a coach that gets it.

heartbreakM

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 7:42 p.m.

@3: Thanks for posting that. Let's hope that his drive to Columbus is a lot shorter than it would be now!! I too grew up 'hating' OSU but as time has passed, I find myself rooting for them so that our game means something. I respect the job that Tress has done (and even Bruce, though I still don't really get Hayes, with his punching of the player). I love listening to Tress talk about the michigan game. I hope that our next coach will be able to do the same. I think JH will be able to match Tress and speak with the same respect of the opponent and the rivalry.

3 And Out

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 6:30 p.m.

Harbs = Michigan Man and one who Gets the Rivalry: Calling it "the best award I've received in my coaching career," Stanford's Jim Harbaugh is the 2010 recipient of the Woody Hayes Award, given to the nation's top coach. Yes, that Woody Hayes. The late Ohio State coach served as Public Enemy Nos. 1, 2 and 3 for Harbaugh's alma mater, Michigan. And yet, from the pigs-must-be-flying department: "Woody is one of my heroes," said Harbaugh, who plans to accept the award in person from the Touchdown Club of Columbus in February. "I've already told them I'm coming." This isn't the first time Harbaugh, who has coached Stanford (11-1) to the Orange Bowl against Virginia Tech, has been honored by the Touchdown Club. In 1986, he received the Chic Harley Award, given to the nation's top player. It was at that ceremony that Harbaugh met the legendary Hayes. Since then, Harbaugh has read books about Hayes and memorized many of Hayes' sayings -- one of which is posted on the door to Harbaugh's office. "How Woody felt about Richard Nixon, George Patton and Douglas MacArthur," he said, "that's exactly how I feel about Bo Schembechler, Jack Harbaugh (his father), Woody Hayes and Abraham Lincoln." Past recipients of the Woody Hayes Award include Joe Paterno, Lou Holtz, Urban Meyer, Bob Stoops and even Schembechler, the longtime Michigan coach. Despite the bitter rivalry between the schools -- the Michigan-Ohio State game is preceded by what both schools call "Hate Week" -- Hayes and Schembechler were close friends. Schembechler played and coached for Hayes before taking over Michigan. "I consider myself from the Woody Hayes coaching tree," said Harbaugh, a voracious reader of football history. "Bo is also part of that tree. Woody has the biggest tree in coaching."

3 And Out

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 6:29 p.m.

and like Theo212 said: If you like 0-9 vs. PSU, MSU and OSU then you will LOVE King Rich Rod.

Mick

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 5:05 p.m.

Yeah right Theo, cause RR has been so great so far, comical. Excuses don't cut it no matter how you spin it!! And please stop diminishing what JH can do. He might be from Bo's era but he is a 21st century man and is inovative and know's how to go for the jugular!!!

GoblueinNE_PA

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 4:59 p.m.

If you like the losses to Toledo AND MSU AND PSU AND OSU AND Wiscy AND Illinois AND Purdue AND Utah AND oh heck, you get the picture, then you're a RichRod fan (and most definitely NOT a Michigan fan). I don't know who's going to take over the program after Rich gets his walking papers following the bowl game, but whomever it is, he will be an improvement over the gawd awful mess we have now. Just look at the errors mentioned in this article (DG RS, Campell to OL) and you'll see how much in disarray we are. Just a couple of weeks left till the 3 year nightmare is over. The RichRod farewell tour leaves Ann Arbor for the final time on December 26. He won't be on the train when the team comes back following the bowl. "You lift me up!"

heartbreakM

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 4:09 p.m.

Something that people miss in this comparison between Stanford and Michigan: Let's compare RR's record to the previous 4 years' records at UM (and same at Stanford with JH). That to me is more telling because it neutralizes what Carr left or did not leave, and averages many years performance. Let's take those years and look at the 3 year performance of RR. One could certainly see that RR's performances are way under what Michigan should and could expect. JH meanwhile overachieved based on those comparisons. Meanwhile, while complaining about Rose Bowl losses by "30" (never happened), one should complain more about NOT GETTING TO THE ROSE BOWL or even coming close to sniffing a meaningful bow. The only reason Michigan even got the Gator Bowl this year is based on reputation of school that way preceded RR. Certainly not based on his performance. And if we argue that bowls are based on performance, there is no way that Temple University should have been left out.

PortageLkBlu

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 2:19 p.m.

Your on the money 520, back in I think 1975 or there abouts Mich was playing Oklahoma and as Mich. was losing this ol boy (90 now) who had watched them for awhile says to us, Mich. is overrated they always are. Now I wouldn't go so far as to say they were always overrated but being as I have lived away from Mich. for some time I had to settle for Rose Bowl (losses) and when your there in person it's a heartbreak. I was at that 81 Washington vs Mich. game and it was a rare exciting event to see Bo getting his first Rose Bowl win. My point is beat up the big 10 and lose the Bowl game. Some of you will settle for that so you can have bragging rights you know 10 win season. I want to see our blue kick butt in the 10 and then go out and beat the Alabama's, Florida, Oklahoma, USC, LSU, Texas etc. etc. and I mean beat them when they are on top Jim Harbaugh will do okay but I don't think he'll compete with the big boys with the old style and his ability to recruit in Calif. probably won't be the same in Mich. These kids out here want to play here in warm weather in front of friends and family. Jim is a good man but his style is going to take Mich. back to LLoyds style now if that's what you want why not just try and get LLoyd back.

dtones520

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 1:20 p.m.

One last thing, over the last 20 seasons, Michigan has been the 2nd most overrated team in College Football based on where they started the season in the rankings and where they finished. The only school that is higher than Michigan in that regards is Florida State and they won 2 NC's in that time. These numbers were from before this season, so 18 of those 20 seasons were under the Bo Style Michigan football with Gary Moeller and Lloyd Carr at the helm.

dtones520

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 1:11 p.m.

By the way, for you all who dog Rich Rodriguez's recruiting, have you looked at where Michigan has ranked in the Big Ten in recruiting under Rich Rod? He has had the number 2 recruiting classes in the Big 10 every year he has been their coach. It's still early in recruiting, even with all the uncertainty, but Michigan again is rated the number 2 recruiting class in the Big 10. So what exactly is he doing wrong in recruiting? What these RR haters don't seem to realize is that Rodriguez wants different players than Michigan had. It's not his fault that Bill Martin offered him the job knowing that he ran a 100% different system than Michigan football ran before. And you can say "coach with what you have", well coaching a pro-style offense didn't get Rich Rodriguez the Michigan job, it didn't make his name a household name. The spread did and thats what he knows. I'd love to see a guy like Lloyd Carr coach this Michigan team and win games with it. They are young, especially on defense. It's not Rodriguez's fault that guys like Donovan Warren left early. It's not his fault that idiots like Boubakar Cissoko flamed out and was nothing more than a thug. It's not his fault that JT Floyd and Troy Woolfolk got injured. Once the season started JT Floyd was their number 1 CB, when he would have been number 4 on their depth chart had no one left the program. What defense would succeed with that many true Freshman and true Sophomores starting in a new scheme? I can't think of many. What is his fault? The NCAA Violations, not knowing enough about some of the traditions at Michigan, changing defensive schemes every year he has been there. But let's not forget that he has the best and most dynamic offense in the Big 10 and they are young. He is recruiting talent and talent for his system. His players truly care about him and he is a good human being.

azwolverine

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 11:12 a.m.

Denardgoblue, amzak, etc, Bottom line...defense has gotten progressively WORSE every year for 3 years under RR. That's not Carr's fault, that' something RR should have been working to IMPROVE on during his time here. 24 points COMBINED on offense against OSU in 3 years is NOT an improvement offensively, either. WHile we can score 65 against the Deleware States and Bowling Greens of the world, we will never, and I repeat NEVER beat OSU with RR coaching this team. We are too soft and OSU absolutely owns this offense. Carr's old-school, boring offense scored more than this when it counted. If we can't beat OSU, we can't win Big Ten titles. If you folks really think we're improving and getting ready to compete in the Big 10, I say based on what facts? What, objectively, leads you to believe that? We were mauled by OSU worse than last year, pummelled by MSU worse than last year and scored less (at home, btw), manhandled worse by Iowa (again at home, and Iowa was not as good as last year), boot stomped by Wisconsin (while putting up only 4 more points than last year...while they put up 3 more...again at home), and slapped around by a 7-5 PSU team. All double-digit losses, all as bad or worse than last season (except PSU), and most of them at home. That is objective fact. What UM and Denard did pre-Big 10 doesn't equate to anything when the Big 10 rolls over us every year. We're no closer to beating the heavy hitters in the Big 10. No, quite the opposite...we're further away.

nhopenwheeler

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 9:52 a.m.

IMHO its all about recruiting. Carr's problem in the later years was that Tressel shut off Ohio. Miami, FSU and Florida were dominant until other SEC teams started making inroads due to the NCAA reduction in scholarships. The same with USC's lock on Calif. and Texas lock on Texas. So the reduction in scholarships and Tressel's lock on Ohio hurt Carr's recruiting. Only the Michigan name and winning tradition was able to bring in some good players, but not in the same quantities as the past. So enter RR. The thought is that because he needs a different style of player he'll be able to recruit Ohio and Penn. Because of his recruiting at WV he has inroads into Fla. and the ACC states. He has done well recruiting, considering the negative press and naysayers. If he continues to improve in the winning column, recruiting will get better and the program will be on top once again, winning! That's what its all about, isn't it? How many of you would be complaining if we were 12-0 and in the BCS Championship?

Blu-n-Tpa

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 9:45 a.m.

That's such a pleasant mental "video" it should be added to the poem, "This the Night Before Christman". I would settle for down two with 3 seconds on the clock Michigan trots out it's place kicker. It's 49 years, the snap is good, the kick is up, MICHIGAN WINS!" During his postgame comments Coach Harbaugh says, "Don't talk to me you morons, talk to THE TEAM, THE TEAM, THE TEAM! AAAH, the Joys of Christmas future! Happy Holidays and Go Blue!

ChelseaBob

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 9:19 a.m.

Article from AnnArbor.com November 27th, 2011; "Up by two touchdowns late in the fourth quarter, Michigan drove the length of the field and scored on Ohio State again. Now up by 20, Harbaugh send the offense back onto the field for a two point conversion. When asked why he went for two, Harbaugh said "because we couldn't go for 3"." Good times are coming.

Blu-n-Tpa

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 8:58 a.m.

I have a real problem about how RR has handled DG. If he was willing to lose Gardner a whole year to make a point vs Tate, what other "messages" has he sent to players not quite as visible? WC wasn't redshirted and I think we would all agree that he had a wasted year if you are moving him to the offense. Roh WAS misused until late in the season when he was moved back to defensive end. That's where he wanted to play so why didn't RR put him there from the start? Ezeh, Gordon, Gallon, Hopkins, punters, kickers, and more were all misused this year. @Chap, interesting comment, "Any coach worth his salt will make the BEST use of what is available to him." How come that didn't apply to RR in his first two years and, as noted above, totally blew it this year. I agree any good coach would, and will, use the untapped talent that is seating on the bench or standing on the sidelines. Any players lost due to a coaching change will be offset by getting more out of those who stay or who decide that playing at Michigan is greater than playing for RR.

Chilltime

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 8:47 a.m.

@3 Please tell me what owner is going to be able to sell to his fan base a COLLEGE coach who has a losing record? That's what Harbs will have at Michigan once he starts this rebuild project. If he wants the NFL, he has to strike while is name is still hot and coming to Michigan next year will kill that buzz. Remember there are only 32 jobs at the top level of the sport. If he like the area and doesn't want to move his family the San Fran job is probably his to accept. Now, I will admit that if he comes to AA then he'll never go to the NFL. If that's the case he better his Stanford '11 class to AA quick, to off set the lose of players transfering out of Michigan.

Blu-n-Tpa

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 8:26 a.m.

Will Campbell will be a true Jr next year. If you weren't sure where you wanted him to play, he should have been redshirted this year. Instead you wait until the, what, 9th game of the season to make the change? Now he's going to learn a new position on the other side of the ball over the winter and next spring and displace someone how has prepped for the OLine since day one. Take a player from an area of need and move him to an area that has depth. Too bad for WC. @DenGB Please stop taking lesson on "how-to-post" from the prince of hyperbole. Carr lost one bowl game by 30 points (vs UT in ORLANDO) so you are in error. Carr beat Washington State, Arkansas, Alabama, Auburn, Florida (twice) in bowl games so you are in error. Bo called himself a "Michigan Man", (Are you calling Bo a liar?), so you are in error. Carr's winning percentage vs top 10 and Top 25 teams is incredible and won the Big Ten 5 times, so you are in error. In fact you are wrong so often you must work for the coaching staff. I implore all of you, please don't try to justify the current failure of RR by dragging a Michigan Man, who spent 30 years serving the University of Michigan with class and humility, through made-up mud.

XTR

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 7:39 a.m.

Wasting Gardners eligibility with very few minutes in one season is a coach'es error. RR wasted that eligibility and the kid is the one paying for it. We don't know anymore if RR wanted to teach Tate a lesson or he wanted Tate gone, but that was a major error on RR's part. One of the reasons why his teams were not properly managed.

Sean T.

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 4:30 a.m.

In regards to the "Knee Bending" issue with Will Campbell. You don't need excessive knee-bending for a DT. There are guy's that have never had issues due to this problem that are much bigger than Will Campbell. Many during Lloyd Carr's era so take a look back a bit. Campbell wants to play......period! So he will find the easiest way to get on the field. Needing proper knee-bend is for O-lineman, especially at Offensive Guard where drive and leverage is most needed. This just shows a waste of talent by RR and his Staff. Will Campbell was looked at as a DT because he was explosive, quick and strong coming out of high school. And it didn't hurt that he had a nack of finding the ball either. Him being mentioned as a Offensive lineman was because he had the measurables. What a waste of a recruit.

3 And Out

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 3:54 a.m.

@amzack...Lloyd left 7 starters on D, a strong D Line, at least 3 of those guys on the D are playing in the NFL now... a whole bunch of offensive talent including 2 NFL WRs, starting TE, 4 returning starting OL, a QB with some starting experience and a ton of potential, 2 RBs with starting experience etc etc etc... Can we now end the MYTH that "Lloyd left no talent"? please? i mean when will you guys give that up? ever??????

JimRhatt

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 2:44 a.m.

To Bornin: Sometimes, to get an elite recruit, you make a promise to him. Such as saying DRob could try to be a QBack, even though most recruiters "knew" RB would be his best position. Keeping your promise is not lack of control. Its called integrity. If the player is proven wrong, the coach still has an elite recruit (Campbell), but at his better position. Can't lose. So, Devin was shown that he wasn't ready. No big deal, is it really?

Mick

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 2:07 a.m.

XTR you are exactly right! I'm getting so sick and tired of the comparisons the RR koolaid crowd makes. I love the ones where some people say yeah, Stanford was 8-5 last year and w/a win in the Bowl Game we'd be 8-5 also. Comical because Stanford was 8-4 and lost to a loaded Okla team to go to 8-5. We'd have to win to get there, ok? Comparing the records of the 1st 3 years of JH at Stanford to RR's at U-M to make their points is mind-boggling. Again, you can't compare what the 2 programs were before each respective hire to draw a plausable conclusion, it's not the same thing as I and many other posters have indicated so often w/facts. Here's another one that really bugs me, people who say oh we'll be improved to possibly 9-3 next year w/natural progression as if that is a given in the 1st place and remember when we used to scoff at 9-3 records, huh? Well I do. Call me an arrogant fan if you want, but I expect A great storied program like ours to be in line for at least 10 victory seasons every year and quite often be in the hunt for the championship.

XTR

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 1:15 a.m.

@Denarded - Do not compare Mack, Lloyd and Jimmy to RR. Mack just won a national championship a few years back. His rebuilding year is normal. If he were to have 3 straight years of 7-5 and below, he will be fired! lol! Lloyd was good coach at all standards. A undefeated season co national champs, a couple of big ten and big ten co national champs, never a season that totally sucked and never a 3 year straight losing to MSU and OSU at the same time. JH got 1-11 to 11-1 in the 4th season with Stanford football standard. That is better than RR going 3-9 and 5-7 after a 9-4 season. RR again or a with a new coach will not have any difference in the first year. The years after that will. RR is just a failure on and off the field.

DenardedGOBLUE!

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 12:39 a.m.

AMZACK I totally agree with you! Lets talk about the Carr era shall we? What did he do that was so amazing? Was it the Rose Bowls we went to and got blown out by 30 every year? Was it being rated in the top 5 every year and losing our second or third game? Bo never won a NC, and he WAS NOT a Michigan man! Carr always dissapointed! yeah we won 8,9,10 games every year, but what does it matter if we cannot win a bowl game? Watch RR win 10 games next year then all the haters with shut up! just to let you know Jim Harbuagh's record at stanford for the first 3 years: 4-8,5-7,8-5 sound familar? Plus he has never won a pac 10 title or a bowl game yet so he is not the football messiah!!! If we go back to the pro-style offense now we will never win a NC!!! The spread offense is the way to go if you want to win a NC (last 4 out of 6 National Champions ran the spread) I stand by Rich Rod, I believe his system is working give him one more year then all of you haters will be drinking the "kool-aid" also!!!!!!!!!!!!

2sweetblue

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 12:27 a.m.

Boy you sure are right!!! Hahaha SEVEN FLIPPIN points against Ohio State............. Man that kool aid can't be good for ya it must be fogging up the goggles......... The spread is a joke and it will never bring them championships in AA.

BornInA2

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 12:23 a.m.

Gardner didn't want to redshirt? Uh, since when is it up to 18 year old kids how to run the team? If that's really what's going on then RR is truly lost (or never had) control. Regardless of how well he played in the spring, it seemed obvious to me that the best thing for the team and program was for him to redshirt so he had only two years left after Forcier and Robinson left. I'm no coach, and that seems like easy math. And are we really still trotting out the now terribly tired "Carr didn't leave any players and it takes 15 years to implement a new system" Kool-Aider excuses?

amzack

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 11:43 p.m.

azwolverine: Carrol, Saban, Meyer inherited better players - otherwise Michigan would be playing Carrs Juniors and Seniors this year. Every situation is different - would you be trying to run Mack Brown out of Texas based on this past season? You think Coach Bo (who wasn't a "Michigan Man") did everything past Michigan coaches did? The answer is "no". If he wanted to give a kid the #1 jersey or choose team captains every week, he would have done it and told the media and Michigan alumni/friends to take a hike. RR haters: The way Michigan fans are crying over a couple losing seasons is pathetic. Get over it. Michigan hired a spread offense coach who needed to implement his system with less talent than anticipated (thanks Carr - perfect timing on your resignation). Unlike Carr, RRod gets off his rear and visits recruits - just landed a 4 star CB even with his uncertainty. Sure, the team made more than the average turnovers and recuited a kicker who turns out to be a choker (like you would have been able to predict that). But ease up complainers - it looks real easy and obvious from the cheap seats.

3 And Out

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 11:25 p.m.

and that is assuming that anyone here knows what Harbs wants to do with his career.... 10+ years at Michigan would still leave Harbs at 56 with plenty of NFL options out there... The NFL = not for long if you dont have success immediately

3 And Out

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 11:24 p.m.

chill... 4 years of Harbs then out for the NFL > 1 more year in the rich Rod Error.

Chilltime

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 10:45 p.m.

Harbaugh is not coming and if he does he will not be in AA long. He is headed to the NFL one way or another.

azwolverine

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 10:28 p.m.

I, too, would be happy to bring on Harbaugh's rebuilding. Great coaches don't take as long as RR to 'rebuild' a team that had had 40 straight winning seasons. Check out Tressel, Meyer, Saban, Carrol, etc. They were done rebuilding in only two years. Harbaugh would have this thing up and humming in two years...8-4 next year (whereas I see RR going 7-5/8-4). Harbaugh is good enough to work with what he's got and make it better.

GettingBluer

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 9:55 p.m.

clarklaker wrote "I will take the rebuilding process. Bring on Harbaugh." Ditto for me. This RR rebuilding process is like the 100 year war. So far, every year the excuse has been that he's starting freshmen. After next year, it'll be we lost all our talent to graduation AND we're still starting freshmen. And the problem areas seem to be the offense in RR years 1-3, the defense in RR years 1-3, and special teams in RR years 1-3. Hmmm, seems that there MIGHT be a pattern here. Koolaid Crowd, help me out here. I'm beginning to lose confidence in our queen. Remind me how impressive our wins have been against the bottom half of the Big Ten but we're still only 2-4 against teams from Ohio (W: Bowling Green and Miami of Ohio, L: Toledo and OSUx3).

dtones520

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 9:42 p.m.

Also, from what I remember, coming out of Spring Ball Gardner looked just as good as any other QB on the Michigan Roster, he made a case for himself to be the starter for this team. No one knew that Denard was going to have the season he had. So to fault RR for not Red Shirting a guy that very nearly won a starting job on this team is a bit much. If Denard didn't pass the ball like he did this year, he wouldn't have been playing and Devin Gardner played better and had a better attitude than Forcier leading up to the season.

dtones520

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 9:38 p.m.

From what I understand about Will Campbell is that it is not a coaching issue that is preventing him from playing DT, it is a fundamental issue that he cannot get down low enough to be a D-1 Defensive Tackle in the Big Ten. He has the strength and physical make up to be a DT, but he can't get low enough to get leverage on an offensive lineman. You don't have to get as low to be an OT and he has the strength and skill, so they have realized he is better suited there. No matter what the coaches do, he can't get low enough to be a DT. Nothing more, nothing less.

heartbreakM

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 9:03 p.m.

What is that picture? A yellow jersey? Huh? And RR sounds awfully confident in Delany knowing what he's doing. Reminds me of when Matt Millen announces a game and talks about a player having a lot of talent or not.

chapmaja

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 8:55 p.m.

I have a few comments to add. First, in regards to the decision to apply for the medical redshirt. If anyone paid attention to what Devin Gardner said both during the season and prior to his joining the team, he made it CLEAR he did not want to redshirt. Blaming RR for him playing isn't fair to RR since it was Gardners decision as much as RR for him to play. In fact I would go as far as to speculate Gardner playing was in part to shut up speculation about the possibility of a redshirt this season. Second, regarding the Will Campbell move from DL to OL. If people paid attention there was a lot of talk during his recruitment and while he was at Michigan that he would be better on an OL than a DL. He dominated in High School. There is a BIG Difference between the caliber players he faced while at Cass Tech compared with what he faces in the Big Ten. It is not fair to blame RR and the staff for the fact he is what people thaught he was, better suited to be a big force on the OL rather than the DL. Finally, in regards to the medical redshirt itself, yes the school does need to provide evidence of the injury with the request for the redshirt due to the fact this is a medical redshirt request. From everything I understand, having known several athletes that have requested medical redshirts at the DI level, is that the review for a medical redshirt is just a quick review and normally the redshirt is granted. If a player requests a 6th year of eligiblity (second medical redshirt), the review is much much tougher to get through. In conclusion I think Michigan's staff has made good decisions both with Gardner and with Will Campbell. The staff really isn't as out of touch as many anti-RR posters think they are. One more thing. As for the idea that Devin and Denard will leave if Michigan does dump RR. Don't bet on it. If RR is here in 2011 Denard would be a fool to transfer (NFL draft is a different story). If Devin and Denard are as talented as they were reported to be, a coach can use them in that coaches system because any coach worth thier salt will make the best use of what is available to him when he is coaching. A coach wouldn't bench an NCAA record holding QB jus because that player doesn't fit his "system". The coach will work the system around the player. I think Michigan will be a lot better next season and will shock some people in 2012. The defense will be a ton better next season and will be even better in 2012. They get several players back from injury next season and will be muc more experience both next year and in 2012, plus they will have a very solid recruiting class entering next season that will add impact and depth to the 2012 defense.

clarklaker

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 8:20 p.m.

I will take the rebuilding process. Bring on Harbaugh.

BornInA2

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 8:13 p.m.

Oops, meant to type January 1, not December 1.

BornInA2

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 8:11 p.m.

Two RR blunders highlighted here: Letting his battle of egos with Forcier put Gardner (and the team) in a position where he has to make a medical appeal for what should have been done from the get-go. And taking a talented player off the defensive side of the ball, where it seems like we could perhaps use just a bit of help, and moving him to the offensive side of the ball. With decisions like this, no wonder our D has been so underwhelming during RR's tenure. I'm hoping December 1 is his last game as our coach.

michboy40

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 8 p.m.

I think this worked out pretty good for Devin, UM, and RR. He got into a few games, but will not have to give up eligibility. Brilliant, although I question whether he was acually hurt. I think it played out a little like BleGator said.

midwest

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 7:20 p.m.

Wow, am not trying to bash rich rodriguez or anything because I think the offense can be very talented next year but how can a five star recruit defense tackle like will cambell who was a beast in high school by the way get swicthed to an offensive lineman must be poor coaching on the defensive side of the ball and I blame rich rod for that.

3 And Out

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 7:19 p.m.

As 2sweetblue noted....RR Burned Devin's shot at a true Red Shirt...and now they are trying to squeeze another one out of the NCAA to cover their mistake. Another RR mistake... another RR mistake.

BlueGator

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 6:54 p.m.

Is there any medical documentation, per se, that will have to be produced for this type of redshirt? Because it always looked to me that RR played Gardner early as Denard's backup because Forcier was was having his little hissy fit because he lost his winged helmet and wasn't the starter. I don't recall there ever being anything said in the first half of the season about a back injury to Gardner. Once Tate grew up and started to act like a man, it looked like RR realized, "Oops, maybe I really don't have to burn Devin's redshirt year after all." I think this is just a convenient loophole that R-Fraud is trying to use.

cwoody297

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 6:47 p.m.

Is it necessary to hate on RR every possible way. The article says basically Devin will get the redshirt so what does it matter he played the first game. If this doesn't go through, then most likely he will be red shirted next season. But what does any of this matter because all you great fans want to run him outta town so say bye bye to Denard and Devin, and the process starts all over, rebuild, loose players to transfers and get blown out by Bama and all the big boys in 2012. I hope "our queen" stays!!

2sweetblue

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 5:50 p.m.

If Richie would not have played him the first game Devin would not have to worry about a medical redshirt. Another great move by our queen. Wow Richie is our leader. Please DB if you give him another year you better put your job on the line to show how sure you are.