Zingerman's Deli taking a second shot at expanding in Ann Arbor
Zingerman's Deli is holding a March 8 meeting to discuss plans to expand.
Steve Pepple | AnnArbor.com
Zingerman's Delicatessen in downtown Ann Arbor is starting from scratch and taking another shot at expanding - less than two years after plans for an addition were denied by the city's Historic District Commission.
The deli's owners sent out postcards Monday to neighboring residents, inviting them to a March 8 meeting where business partners, architects and builders will be available to answer questions.
"We're basically going back to the drawing board - we're trying again and basically going through the process again," said Pete Sickman-Garner, marketing manager for Zingerman's Service Network. "We're trying to figure out a way that we can grow the footprint a little bit."
Sickman-Garner said the goal of the meeting is to get feedback from neighbors and other community stakeholders on a building addition attached to the deli on the property at 322 E. Kingsley St. He said drawings of the proposed expansion should be available for people to view, though all designs are preliminary and subject to change.
Zingerman's intends to submit a site plan to the city on March 29. The deli's owners say they want to expand their campus at 422 Detroit St. to alleviate crowded working conditions and lack of storage space, address accessibility issues and create a more enjoyable guest experience.
This file photo shows one of the houses (at right) that Zingerman's hoped to demolish at 420 Detroit St. in 2008.
File photo
After being reviewed by the city's planning staff, the petition will go to the Planning Commission and, if approved, to the Ann Arbor City Council. After that, the proposal would go back before the Historic District Commission.
In June 2008, Zingerman's received approval to demolish a garage in the historic district near the company's Detroit Street deli. But it failed to get approval from the Historic District Commission to raze two other structures to allow for an addition. The commission was divided on one of the two houses, a story-and-a-half structure at 322 E. Kingsley Lane in Kerrytown.
Three commissioners favored allowing demolition of the property, boarded up since a fire in 2006. But a four-member majority said that - despite the fire damage and various alterations - the home continued to contribute to the story of the city's Old Fourth Ward and could be repaired.
City Council Member Sandi Smith, D-1st Ward, said she doesn't know the details of the new plans for Zingerman's, but is hopeful a solution can be worked out to allow the company to grow.
"Zingerman's community businesses employ 500 people in Ann Arbor, and they're not planning to go anywhere else, so that's pretty impressive. And they're expanding right now, which is even more impressive. So I'd be excited to see what they do," she said.
"They are a block and a half from my point of work and four and a half blocks from my house. I am a frequent visitor, and they are really a community spot. People flock there and I think it's an important asset."
Zingerman's co-founders Paul Saginaw and Ari Weinzweig first opened the doors to the deli in March 1982. According to the Zingerman's Web site, the deli got its start with a small selection of specialty foods, traditional Jewish dishes and a relatively short sandwich menu.
Today, Zingerman's is an Ann Arbor institution, serving up thousands of made-to-order sandwiches every year.
The building that houses Zingerman's traces back to 1902 and, according to Sickman-Garner, always has been a food business.
"The building was not designed to be used the way it has been," he said. "It worked fine when they first opened the deli, but given the amount of traffic we move through there and the wear and tear that goes with making as many sandwiches as we do ... we need a bigger space."
The March 8 meeting will last from 5-6:30 p.m. at the deli. Call Chris Krause at 734-663-0974 or e-mail ckrause@zingermans.com with any questions.
Ryan J. Stanton covers government for AnnArbor.com. Reach him at ryanstanton@annarbor.com or 734-623-2529.
Comments
a2copp
Sat, Feb 27, 2010 : 5:45 p.m.
It's disheartening that not one local politician will get out in front of this issue and actively support - through actions, not words - the expansion plans of a local business with a stellar reputation. Forget the bureaucratic excuses and the supply/demand ignorance, if Zingerman's isn't a business worthy of local support, then who is? Why won't a council member (or our flip-flopping mayor) put their neck on the line and get this done?
Mike
Fri, Feb 26, 2010 : 5:44 p.m.
Reading the story and the comments that followed brought a few things to mind. One, you can have a profitable, respectful business expand, thus creating more jobs and more money for the local economy, or you can preserve a burnt-out, eyesore of a building that is uninhabitable. To me, it's a simple choice. Next, Ann Arbor is just an expensive city. Look at a $100,000 home here vs. the same priced home in Ypsilanti for an example. And when people say Zingerman's has no competition... technically, there is, in the form of Amer's, the Bread Basket, etc. But in terms of the quality, I don't believe so. That's my next point - the company mostly buys from very small-scale producers who make their food by hand. This is a very labor-intensive process that results in higher costs. Also, they provide affordable healthcare to their employees, and give a lot back to the community. In fact, Paul Saginaw, one of Zingerman's founders, started Food Gatherers in 1988. These are things I believe in, and because of that, I'll pay the $14 they ask for a sandwich - plus it's just flat out delicious. I can't afford it all the time, but I'm not under the delusion that I'm getting similar quality when I eat at most other places in town. To each their own... as others have said, if you don't like it, don't buy it. But don't use that as a reason that they shouldn't be able to expand either.
Jon Saalberg
Fri, Feb 26, 2010 : 8:09 a.m.
There is an easy but earth shattering way around the issue of "must follow federal guidelines" arguments. Abolish the HC and remove the historical designations. As one who lives on the west side, but not the "Old West Side" or any other area that requires quote marks and capitalization, I can safely say that our neighborhood has not fallen into ruin without people telling us whether we can put vinyl siding on our house or replace our windows with energy-efficient replacement windows.There is no rational reason to save the house to the east of Zingerman's, other than the belief that saving any structure, no matter how decrepit and dangerous, should be saved, even if doing so will cost a fortune and result in a structure less energy efficient and worthwhile than new construction.
Ming Bucibei
Fri, Feb 26, 2010 : 12:42 a.m.
Delete the moronic historical district comission a pack of drooling brainless marxist pinhead useless idiots tar and feather the 4 refusenick fools knock down that useless burned out bulding!! Give zingermans what they need to expand, they are a national brand and provide needed jobs Zingermans is great!! & historic district comisssion are fools ming bucibei
Concerned Citizen
Wed, Feb 24, 2010 : 10:35 p.m.
Ah, the home of Lafayette Coney Island. [NODDING HEAD]
treetowncartel
Wed, Feb 24, 2010 : 8:10 p.m.
When traveling abroad I tend to say I am from Detroit, much more street cred, and then they say "[T]hat is where Lafayette Coney Island is."
Blklight
Wed, Feb 24, 2010 : 9:49 a.m.
Dimo's?
Concerned Citizen
Tue, Feb 23, 2010 : 11:51 p.m.
Ah, the home of Fox Tent and Awning.
gogmagog8
Tue, Feb 23, 2010 : 11:21 p.m.
I love the Zingermann's bashers...and the general tendency in this town for people to kvetch and try to tear down the very things that we are known for. I can promise you that when I am in Paris talking to a cheese maker and he/she finds out I am from Ann Arbor, Michigan, they don't scream "Back Alley Gourmet" or "The Bread Basket"...they usually say "Ah, the home of Zingerman's" or maybe, "Ah, the home of the University of Michigan". Same goes for London, San Antonio or Tokyo. Zingermann's continues to keep this place on the map long after many of the other purveyors of true distinction has been put out of business. I find that the folks in Ann Arbor tend to HAVE NO PERSPECTIVE on their own community...even worse, they don't really even care to. I do not, however, support expanding in the current Z location. They are so innovative and creative, they will find a way to make what they have work. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. It is a historic residential neighborhood and that should be preserved. Nothing gets to be truly historic if we don't preserve it. I am not a blind preservationist, but when I look at what is torn down in the name of "progress" or "the economy" and what goes up in its place, I shudder. All one needs to do is look at South U or Liberty to see what happens when no one has their eye on the preservation store. Ye Gads.
Concerned Citizen
Tue, Feb 23, 2010 : 11:07 p.m.
Zingerman's / Library Lot. Plenty of room. Plenty of parking.... all new wiring!!! :-)!
Stephen Landes
Tue, Feb 23, 2010 : 9:10 p.m.
We are a city dying for new and expanding business. While historic preservation can have a role to play we are not Williamsburg -- a city stuck in time. We need to take care of local businesses that are doing so much to make our city a great place to live. If we keep up this habit of making it difficult to grow and expand a business in town we will find that good friends like Zingerman's will move out of town to a location where they can grow and be competitive.
Adam Jaskiewicz
Tue, Feb 23, 2010 : 6:29 p.m.
What makes it historic? Is it a particularly unique example of a certain style of architecture? Designed by a well-known architect? Was it the home of a prominent local figure? What significance does it provide to the neighborhood? Is it just another average example of an average house that just happened to be built 100 years ago? What makes it special enough to warrant blocking the expansion of a successful business?
Kaye Mears Garthwaite
Tue, Feb 23, 2010 : 6:23 p.m.
How sad that the Historical Committee can prevent an honorable business such as Zingerman's the ability to expand. I've viewed the proposed building site needed to expand and wonder what "story" this building offers vs the "story" that Zingermans brings to Ann Arbor! Wake up, don't blindly be opposed to the expansion just because you enjoy having the power to say NO!
T-bone
Tue, Feb 23, 2010 : 5:38 p.m.
The house is question is a different structure than the garage every one is screaming about, while small and rundown (demolition by neglect) it is un-questionably historic. Perhaps Zingerman's IS trying to do too much at this location. Demolishing historic fabric to accomodate expansion is not the way to go.
AA2BJI
Tue, Feb 23, 2010 : 4:40 p.m.
Since moving away from Ann Arbor 2 years ago, my wife & I find what we miss most about the place include: 1) Our friends; 2) The gardens we established in our home of 20 years; 3) Zingermans. The sometimes absurd decisions of the Historic District Commission fell on our "time to get the heck out of Michigan" list....
ScottyBoy
Tue, Feb 23, 2010 : 3:52 p.m.
Great place for a $40.00 lunch. Worst chicken soup on the continent!
Atticus F.
Tue, Feb 23, 2010 : 3:48 p.m.
jcj, I also know that when there is no competition, there is little incentive to lower the price. Also Zingermans has owned that building for years, they dont pay rent, yet they continue to charge as much as they possibly can. Again this is because they have no competition. The fact that they have no competition, is the reason that I can only afford to eat deli about once every 2 months... Although I can probably afford to eat deli about once a week now that I know The Bread Basket has opened, and I know for a fact that their food is just as good as Zingermans.
jcj
Tue, Feb 23, 2010 : 3:39 p.m.
Atticus F. You seem to have all the answers. So I suppose you know that in the business world something is worth whatever you can get for it. Frankly Zingerman's is not worth the price to me. But they get what they ask and are always busy. I doubt your "regionally famous" deli in Detroit would be able to get much more than they get now! If they could they would!! I do not doubt that their sandwiches are good. Probably would be more to my liking. But I doubt they put much in the way of taxes into the Detroit economy as Zingerman's does with their ventures. You can also buy a house in Detroit for about $5000.
David Marshall
Tue, Feb 23, 2010 : 3:16 p.m.
I hope Zingerman's can find a way to expand that'll preserve their awesome style and feel. It'd be a shame to lose out on new work opportunities in the community because a burnt-out garage was deemed "Historical".
Adam Jaskiewicz
Tue, Feb 23, 2010 : 2:09 p.m.
Yeah, Zingerman's is expensive. That's why I don't go there regularly. However, every time I've gone there I've been extremely happy with every aspect of... well... everything except the price. If you don't like their prices, you don't have to go. Sure, you can get a cheaper sandwich elsewhere, and yeah, it might be as good or better, but I still like Zingerman's, even if their prices (and my waistline) keep me from going there very often. I understand why there is an HPC, but they do tend to be a little over-zealous. Historic preservation and economic progress need to co-exist. Just because something is old doesn't mean it's somehow special. 100 years from now, will we have an HPC trying to save our McMansions and double-wides? They should figure out what are the "gems"; especially well-preserved/iconic/important/significant buildings, and concentrate on preserving those. Development that maintains or even enhances the character of the neighborhood should be encouraged.
treetowncartel
Tue, Feb 23, 2010 : 1:55 p.m.
No problem Atticus. The adventurous souls reading this should really try The Swanky Franky at the Bread Basket, just don't tell your cardioligist.
Atticus F.
Tue, Feb 23, 2010 : 1:43 p.m.
and thanks for the recomandation treetowncartell. I've been going to the Bread Basket for years when I worked out that way. I'm ecstatic to hear they have opened a location in A2. And even more so to hear it's near my house!!!
tdw
Tue, Feb 23, 2010 : 1:41 p.m.
They should open in Ypsi...we have a real nice old burned out building in Depot Town that won't be going anywhere soon
Atticus F.
Tue, Feb 23, 2010 : 1:37 p.m.
@stillatownie, for your info there are deli's in detroit that are regionally famous for their corned beef, pastrami, and rye bread at about $8-9/sandwich...So please dont give me any of this Bologny about gettin what you pay for at zingermans. Try taking a trip to Lou's Deli(Detroit) and you'll realize how niave you were to come to the defense of the overpriced monsterosity know as zingermans. Zingermans is so over priced, it's to the point of being borderline criminal. There is also a false belief that in paying for a $15 sandwich, you are also paying a decent living wage to zingermans empoyees. They start their employees at $8/hr, why dont you try living on that wage!
treetowncartel
Tue, Feb 23, 2010 : 1:35 p.m.
There is a great new deli on the east side of town called the Bread Basket. It is located in the little strip mall on the south east corner of Carpenter and Ellsworth. Their corned beef sandwiches are great and large. I think the half is 5.99, more meat than Zingermans by far and just as good. I have eatn at the one in Oak Park and was glad to see their arrival in our area.I also like Back Alley Gourmet. I haven't been to Zingerman's in years, too much time, effort and money involved.
81wolverine
Tue, Feb 23, 2010 : 1:32 p.m.
Bonsai: You are correct that the HDC does have to work under the contraints of what the Dept. of Interior defines as a historic district. But, that does NOT mean that the HDC can't work WITH individuals and businesses within a historic district to accomodate the needs and desires of ALL parties. Nor does it mean that the HDC doesn't have a lot of leeway in how it reviews and approves projects within a district. Sometimes the HDC has shown a lot of inflexibility where it really isn't warranted. Strictly in my opinion, the historic district in the area of Zingerman's doesn't have that strong of an architectural character that needs preservation. There's an existing "mixed" bag of commercial and residential buildings from different eras that again, make 100% strict preservation unnecessary. Again, just my opinion.
jcj
Tue, Feb 23, 2010 : 1:15 p.m.
Concerning the cost of a sandwich it is more than I like to pay. ( I have only been there once)However the fact that I don't have many in choices in A2 for a deli is not Zingerman's fault. They provide what a lot of people want or they would not be looking to expand. If you prefer the price of a sandwich in Southfield then buy them there!! As to whether the Historic District Commission had any choice. "What this story fails to point out is the constraints under which the Historic District Commission works." WHY were 3 out of 7 able to vote in favor?? You make it sound like it is cut and dried before they vote. If we keep up the standard of preserving burnt out buildings soon we can look like 12th street in Detroit. Now there's some history!
stillatownie
Tue, Feb 23, 2010 : 12:54 p.m.
i am really sick of people complaining about the cost of the sandwiches at zingerman's. if you don't like it, don't buy it! sure, there are $7 sandwiches in southfield, but are they made from the same quality ingredients? from a deli that is *world* renowned? yeah, i didn't think so.
Griffen
Tue, Feb 23, 2010 : 12:13 p.m.
I find it strange that the A2 HDC is so unwilling to work with Zingerman's Deli (now or over the past years)? Zingerman's has done nothing but contribute to the value of the Historic Kerrytown District and helped contribute to the wonderful atmosphere enjoyed by both, visitors and locals who have come to value and enjoy it for so many years. Why not let them demolish a burnt out husk of wood frame building, remove the 'pink' annex, and expand properly?! I can't think of a better organization to do this better then Paul and Ari! They have their fingers of the pulse of what drives people to come visit and spend their cash in A2 on delicious food.
MikeAA
Tue, Feb 23, 2010 : 12:12 p.m.
Frankly I cant get behind anybody who has the audacity to charge $12 for a sandwich. Same product in Southfield would be $7.
bunnyabbot
Tue, Feb 23, 2010 : 11:32 a.m.
the orange building,what zingermans calls the annex, to the right of the deli is used for storage, however, there is a danger that you could fall through the floor! additionally it is covered in MANY layers of paint, lead paint. Because it is "historic" they have to keep painting it to keep the lead paint underneath from flaking off. They have had to add support beams in the basement to keep the ground floor from sagging, the floor boards creak and are paper thin. As for storage, much of the space is left unused for fear of colasp, dangerous enough that they no longer put a picnic table on the porch of it for quest to use. (just imagine how crappy the wiring in the building is!) And it is a huge fire hazard. THe burnt out house on Kingsley (behind the deil) has just been sitting there. This one is not "historic" however the deli really wants to tare down the annex, otherwise their expantion plans would not move forward as it is in the middle of their property.
Owen23
Tue, Feb 23, 2010 : 11:30 a.m.
My impression of the HDC is that they genuinely want to approve most every petition they get. The just need the petitions to conform with the Sec. State guidelines that they are tasked by law with following. So maybe the story here isn't "HDC Blocks Zingerman's" so much as "Zingerman's Fails to Meet Guidelines"??? I'm genuinely just asking the question. Here's a request to AnnArbor.com people: Maybe your journalistic duty here is to find out WHY the HDC didn't like the Zingerman's proposal. Find out the specific issues and details. That would help us understand this whole issue better. Maybe we can find out if Zingerman's is in good faith addressing whatever the parts of the application were so problematic for the HDC.
Atticus F.
Tue, Feb 23, 2010 : 11:26 a.m.
Would someone please open a good deli to compete with Zingermans? I'm thinkin near Main, Liberty, or Washinton. Maybe if someone had the vison to build a reasonably priced quality deli, Zingermans would have no need to tear up the historic district. We dont need another Indian restaurant in this town, we dont need another Chinese, or Middle Eastern, or Korean restaurant in this town...WE NEED ANOTHER DELI IN THIS TOWN!!!!
lumberg48108
Tue, Feb 23, 2010 : 11:23 a.m.
with what they charge for a sandwhich, they should be able to bribe the historic commission to get approval - detroit style (Joke -- kinda)
MB111
Tue, Feb 23, 2010 : 11:02 a.m.
We cannot allow Zingerman's to expand. We must preserve Ann Arbor and reject all change. I'm trying to get all the NIMBY out of my system.
sbbuilder
Tue, Feb 23, 2010 : 11:01 a.m.
81wolverine: Sorry, common sense surgically removed per requirement for Histerical Commission membership. Grinch: So, you would like to keep the discussion sans emotion? How about from the Commission's FAQ's: Are demolitions allowed in local historic district? Yes. The historic district commission can issue a Notice to Proceed for demolition of a building. However, the commission must find that retaining the resource is a hazard to public safety, will deter a major improvement project of significant benefit to the public, or cause undue financial hardship to the property owner due to an action beyond the owners control, such as an act of God or a governmental action, created the hardship. A building can also be demolished if it is determined not to be historically significant or if it has lost its historic integrity. And: A historic resource must also retain its physical integrity that is comprised of seven qualities: materials, design, workmanship, location, setting, feeling and association. Apart from those two references, there are many more like it that allow for a lot of latitute in decision making. But, how about that word "feeling", included in the seven qualities of physical integrity. Sounds kind of emotional to me. Also, look at the immediate neighborhood. The architecture couldn't be more diverse, even chopped up, inconsistent. There is very little about it that is homogenous. Not like the Old West Side. I'm sure Zingerman's wouldn't propose a four story metallic avant-garde pissoire next to their wonderful brick store.
The Grinch
Tue, Feb 23, 2010 : 10:25 a.m.
Bonsai: How dare you bring facts and logic to bear on any discussion here!! Don't you know it's all about anger and sarcasm?
Bonsai
Tue, Feb 23, 2010 : 9:53 a.m.
What this story fails to point out is the constraints under which the Historic District Commission works. They have strict guidelines on what makes a building historic dictated from the federal Department of the Interior. Their judgment has nothing to do with economic development. http://www.a2gov.org/government/communityservices/planninganddevelopment/historicpreservation/Pages/FREQUENTLYASKEDQUESTIONS.aspx
Janelle Baranowski
Tue, Feb 23, 2010 : 9:47 a.m.
Would the increased tax base be captured by TIF and go to the DDA or LFDA?
Regular Voter
Tue, Feb 23, 2010 : 9:43 a.m.
Great unwashed scoffers.....What is the carbon footprint on 500 jobs in Ann Arbor? Unacceptable. Not to mention the impact of all those sandwich eaters driving into our fair city from heaven knows where making our potholes that much worse! Why not put parking meters inside the deli so we wouldn't have to take a number, and then charge an income tax on anyone shopping there plus a surcharge on the sandwiches and a special $200 to $700 parking fee for going to the deli; then maybe we'd bring this irresponsible corporate citizen more in line with Ann Arbor's way of thinking. We've got to be able to move this enterprise and its jobs somewhere they're appreciated. Not here! As all the mayor's appointees from this commission to the DDA to the AATA board and scores of others have a chance to impose his era's vision of folly we shall reap what he's sown. That burned out garage can then be razed and a new Delonis Shelter II built in its place to house the 500 people who used to have jobs there. Vote for the government you deserve this fall.
81wolverine
Tue, Feb 23, 2010 : 9:28 a.m.
I agree with many of the comments. It's absolutely absurd to prevent the expansion of a company that is a MAJOR draw of people to the downtown area and employer of 500 people. The Historical Commission does serve a purpose, but sometimes, they can be an impediment to economic development - such as this one. No one is going to want to renovate a burned out, old house - especially in this economy. Hopefully, the HC has gained some common sense since 2008 and will approve Zingerman's expansion.
wendy
Tue, Feb 23, 2010 : 9:26 a.m.
That burned out shell of a house on Kingsley contributes NOTHING. I understand some neighbors are worried about more truck traffic, but I think Zingerman's has been an amazing neighbor and a great asset for Ann Arbor. I trust them to do the right thing.
glimmertwin
Tue, Feb 23, 2010 : 9:10 a.m.
Just what Ann Arbor needs, another place to dine on a $12 sandwich.
Fred Posner
Tue, Feb 23, 2010 : 8:54 a.m.
"...the home continued to contribute to the story of the city's Old Fourth Ward and could be repaired." Nice. Instead of generating revenue, bringing in word for both demolition and construction, as well as of course state and local taxes, the city would rather contribute to the story of yesteryear. Ridiculous.
a2miguy
Tue, Feb 23, 2010 : 8:51 a.m.
Wanna expand business in a recession? Roll back your sandwiches prices.
SemperFi
Tue, Feb 23, 2010 : 8:46 a.m.
Maybe it'll be OK if they promise to build a water sculpture that looks like a convention center.
A2K
Tue, Feb 23, 2010 : 8:42 a.m.
Keep the current Deli as-is, and open a new, larger place on Liberty or Washington...closer to parking, easier to find, lots of room, and no Historical issues.
xmo
Tue, Feb 23, 2010 : 8:41 a.m.
Do we really want for profit company's in AA? After all, they gobble up neighborhoods, hire more people, bring more people into the town, and pay more taxes.
mmggttnn
Tue, Feb 23, 2010 : 8:29 a.m.
My comment to the HISTORIC DISTRICT COMMISSION! Work something out with Zingerman's. They are a great asset to Ann Arbor and we need to allow them to meet their needs.
a2huron
Tue, Feb 23, 2010 : 8:27 a.m.
Keep a burned-out shell instead of allowing a business expansion?!? Only the AA Historical Commission could be guilty of such a misguided decision.
sellers
Tue, Feb 23, 2010 : 7:55 a.m.
Why not a compromise. Provide guidelines to what Zingermans can do to build a new using old style architecture so it fills in nicely. You may have true history, but you will be preserving character and not alter the feel of those buildings that didn't have a fire and have stood the test of time, not to mention, the foot traffic will allow others an opportunity to see the character and enjoy and speak of it.
AlphaAlpha
Tue, Feb 23, 2010 : 7:12 a.m.
In this growing recession, it is wise to encourage all responsible business expansion.
momzilla
Tue, Feb 23, 2010 : 7:11 a.m.
I agree with comments from Heinold and doa1977 whole heartedly.
doa1977
Tue, Feb 23, 2010 : 6:48 a.m.
Well lets see a "boarded up burnt out garage",compared to a nice building,that I pretty sure Zingermans will keep in the historic design..GEEEZ people on the historic society,get off your high horse!!!!..Next thing you'll find out Zingermans will move out of the city!!!..I love Zingermans,great place for family and friends to meet for a meal and conversation...
Bob Heinold
Tue, Feb 23, 2010 : 6:29 a.m.
Is it "Historical Preservation" or "Hysterical Perseveration?" Zingerman's is a successful business, a great Ann Arbor attraction. So why let an building block Z's expansion?