House passes bill named for student kicked out of EMU program for refusing to counsel gay client
Editor's note: The headline of this article has been corrected to reflect the fact Ward was dismissed from an EMU program.
The Michigan House has passed a bill prohibiting religious discrimination against college students studying counseling, social work and psychology.
The bill was prompted by the case of Julea Ward, who was kicked out of a counseling program at Eastern Michigan University because she refused to counsel a gay student about a relationship. She said doing so conflicted with her Christian religious beliefs. She instead referred the student to another counselor.
Julea Ward at Eastern Michigan University.
A three-judge panel of the court said a jury could conclude the university used a code of ethics it adheres to "as a pretext for punishing Ward’s religious views and speech" and sent the case back to a lower court for a jury trial. EMU denies any bias.
Leigh Greden, director of government and community relations for EMU. said EMU remains firmly opposed to the bill because it could jeopardize the accreditation of EMU and other public universities’ counseling programs. He said other universities and groups representing health care professionals also oppose the bill.
"The case has never been about religion but rather about following the guidelines of our academic program and the accrediting bodies," said Greden.
Jeremy Tedesco, a lawyer for the Alliance Defense Fund, which is representing Ward in her lawsuit, called the assertion that the bill could jeopardize accreditation a red herring. He said the code of ethics followed by EMU allows for referrals and that what’s important to accrediting agencies is the curriculum being taught, not adherence to a code of ethics.
"We're encouraged that the elected representatives of Michigan have taken a concern in this case and decided to act," he said.
Bill 5040, also known as the "Julea Ward freedom of conscience act, passed 59 to 50 Tuesday. It now goes to the Senate for consideration.
State Rep. David Rutledge, D-Ypsilanti, who voted against the bill, said in a written statement that he fears the bill could legalize all forms of discrimination based ostensibly on religious faith.
“What that legalization could mean for Michigan, and for the kind of state we hope to become, is deeply troubling.”
State Reps. Jeff Irwin, D-Ann Arbor, and Mark Ouimett, R- Scio Township, also voted against the bill. Rick Olson, R-York Township, voted for it.
Comments
chapmaja
Tue, Sep 11, 2012 : 5:36 p.m.
I would have an issue if she refused to counsol the client, She didn't do that, she refered he client to someone who could better serve that persons needs. I completely agree the university is pushing their agenda, and attempting to deny the student her religious freedoms at the same time. I hope this law passes the Senate and gets signed by the governor. It would be one piece of legislation that I would actually think Lansing got right.
Mary Warunek
Mon, Jun 25, 2012 : 4:30 p.m.
She did the right thing by refusing to counsel them and refer them to another. You can't wrong her for suggesting to her superiors to refer the 'client' to another because of her beliefs and values.The client never knew about it until she was released of her duties unjustly. If she would have counseled them and anything about God came into it, she would have been fired or reprimanded as well. You can't force Christians to violate their beliefs, and if you did, you'd have to hold the same standard to anyone else, including muslims (which they won't do) . You can't expect someone to counsel someone on something they don't believe in. It should have never cost her her job.
philmar111
Fri, Jun 15, 2012 : 9:49 p.m.
The important issue here is not what the university did or what Julia ward did or didn't do. It's what the miserably incompetent Michigan House is now doing in their typical knee jerk fashion. What other state House is the laughing stock on cable news today and likely on the late night comedy shows.
Kenton Jones
Fri, Jun 15, 2012 : 7:15 p.m.
More crazy conservative knee-jerk Michigan legislation. She's a COUNSELOR. She's supposed to COUNSEL. I doubt this woman's "religious beliefs" agree with most of what clients bring to her couch. "Christian" doesn't quite fit this woman: where is compassion? What would Jesus do? Yeah, he'd probably say, "Sorry, can't talk to you, LEPER." I wonder: if the Bible condoned racism, would she stop being BLACK? Where does this end? Teachers wouldn't have to teach, Doctors could discriminate, and religious intolerance would be acceptable rationale for bullying.
E. Manuel Goldstein
Fri, Jun 15, 2012 : 7:05 p.m.
Oh, and what if god is gay?
E. Manuel Goldstein
Fri, Jun 15, 2012 : 7:03 p.m.
Who will counsel all the gay christians now?
mpope
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 11:57 p.m.
I suggest someone count how many times the word ' homophobe' is used in these posts, as in julea ward= homophobe add that to the number of times ' bigot' is slung around and multiply that by the number of times ' religious zealot' and ' christian bias' is tossed out with great ferver and we might-- MIGHT-- approach the ratio of hypocrisy per tolerant liberal exhibited here on aa.com tonight.
YpsiArbor
Fri, Jun 15, 2012 : 3:16 a.m.
You're hilarious, mpope! You want us to think you are decrying name calling. You then end your post by name calling! You might want to run for the Michigan legislature. You'd fit right in. I think most people would rather live in a "tolerant" world than a hateful one. Even you. Imagine how you would feel if someone chose one of your intrinsic qualities - say, your skin color or gender - and discriminated against you because of it. How do you feel about "tolerance" now?
Lola
Fri, Jun 15, 2012 : 1:44 a.m.
YpsiVet, I'm not sure that that's really true, that she was uniformed about what he/she was seeking counseling about. What I DO know is that Jesus would be ashamed of her. Jesus was all about kindness, compassion and loving our fellow human beings. She demonstrated none of those traits. If I were her (and thank goodness I'm not) I would seek immediate counseling from my minister.
YpsiVeteran
Fri, Jun 15, 2012 : 12:16 a.m.
Miss Ward is a poster child for the definition of the word "homophobe." She refused to see the student before she even knew what he wanted, simple because of his sexual orientation. She didn't even stop long enough to find out if his issue was related to his sexual preference. She let some sort of irrational fear lead her to the conclusion that ANY contact with the student was somehow going to compromise her alleged "religious" beliefs. Sorry you don't like the facts, but they are what they are.
Bogie
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 11:41 p.m.
Good job Lansing. I'm reading all the attacks on Christianity from commentators. What would the comments read, if the person, who was dropped from the program, was Islamic. I do believe the koran speaks against homosexuality. I wonder, would their be verbal attacks on Islam? The hostility toward Christianity is alive and well. It is written all over this page. Heaven forbid, a person takes a moral stance, and declare their stance according to the bible.
YpsiArbor
Fri, Jun 15, 2012 : 3:12 a.m.
Ridiculous, Bogie. But nice try at redirecting the conversation away from the actual issues. To make note of this woman's lack of Christian charity is not bashing Christianity. In fact, it is SUPPORTING Christianity.
Michigan Man
Fri, Jun 15, 2012 : 1:03 a.m.
Bogie - Please remember though that according to some Islamic scholars LGBT behaviors do not exist in Islam. Many Muslims, I believe, would simply argue they are superior to Christians in that none of them (Muslims) are part of the LGBT crowd. Your comments hit the target in the center! The koran does speak about homosexuality and it also permits multiple wives (4 I thought) for Muslim men. Finally, calling those who offered vile comments about our fine Christian friends, family and neighbors in Ann Arbor/Ypsi "commentators" is an act of Christian compassion on these lost souls.
YpsiVeteran
Fri, Jun 15, 2012 : 12:12 a.m.
There's been zero hostility towards Christianity. You can try to twist the opinions being expressed any way you wish, but the comments are directed at the female involved and the situation, and not at "Christianity." Your attempt to contrive some sort of bias against the religion is transparent and laughable.
RGA in AA
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 10:16 p.m.
Interesting....I'm thinking of the song we often sing in church on Sunday, "And they will know we are Christians by our love...." and I can't help but wonder if that student she refused to serve felt "love" from this "Christian" lady....
garrisondyer
Fri, Jun 15, 2012 : 12:24 a.m.
Thanks for saying this. You and I seem to approach this topic similarly!
Cathy
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 10:02 p.m.
Republicans love this kind of thing, since it brings social conservatives to the polls. "Tax cuts for the rich? Who cares? Someone might have to talk to a queer!"
Arborcomment
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 9:54 p.m.
Interesting parallel ? Ms. Sandra Fluke purposely applied for Georgetown Law School so she could form a "women's reproductive rights group" and advocate that Georgetown University pay for birth control (she had formed a similar group at her undergrad school). Even following her appearance at a pseudo committee and the famous Rush statement, she will return to Georgetown. So Fluke follows her convictions and is allowed to return to the school, and Ward...
Arborcomment
Fri, Jun 15, 2012 : 2:12 a.m.
Lola, then you face a difficult decision, or are equipped with knowledge beyond the rest of us - that being exactly when life begins - and especially as abortions take place some time after conception. Further, as commonly held, most women's reproductive rights groups consider a women's right to choose as a foundation. I'd be very surprised of any selectivity from such a staunch advocate as Ms. Fluke.
Lola
Fri, Jun 15, 2012 : 1:39 a.m.
Well since I don't believe that life begins at conception then I still have to question the comparison. I do find it irresponsible of you to draw the comparison between Ms. Fluke and Ms. Ward without knowing whether or not Ms. Fluke's reproduction rights group advocates abortion or not.
Arborcomment
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 11:05 p.m.
Lola and RGA, I have a question mark (?) after interesting parallel. Making no judgement and am soliciting thoughts. The two schools handled it differently and it appears the religious affiliated one was more "lenient" or "forgiving". I am uncertain if Ms. Fluke's "Reproductive Rights Group" also advocated abortion - and would that be grounds for dismissal at Georgetown? If her group did advocate abortion Lola, then you'd be in the morass of discussion on "discrimination against another human being" - supposing you count death as the ultimate form of discrimination.
RGA in AA
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 10:15 p.m.
Interesting....I'm thinking of the song we often sing in church on Sunday, "And they will know we are Christians by our love...." and I can't help but wonder if that student she refused to serve felt "love" from this "Christian" lady....
Lola
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 10:13 p.m.
What did Ms. Fluke do that discriminated against another human being? Go ahead, I'll wait while you think of an answer. Jesus would not approve of "Christians" using their religion to camouflage their hate. Go ahead and hate the "sin" if you feel you must but Jesus said you must love the "sinner".
simone66
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 9:45 p.m.
Ms. Ward must be so proud of herself and her beliefs now. It's a shame. How would she feel if someone used their narrow religious beliefs and 'referred' her to someone else based on her gender, race, or sexual identity? I'm so tired of people using the crutch of their personal religion to DISCRIMINATE against other human beings!
Julius
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 9:20 p.m.
What if the person seeking counseling was simply using this person as a means to advance a political agenda? It's not like that hasn't happened before. Perhaps sexual orientation choices have little to do with it other than to enhance the advancement of the agenda. There is no discrimination because somebody made a choice. A person cannot change their skin color, but s.o. is a choice which is constantly reinforced by those who support you. At issue is: where does your Christianity stop governing your life? The answer is it doesn't. The whole point of Christianity is that you aren't living to please those who live in this world, but you are here to both preserve moral character and to serve as a guide to the almighty. Where does morality come from if not from God?
YpsiArbor
Fri, Jun 15, 2012 : 3:10 a.m.
"Moral character." Julius, do you realize that not all Christians agree about the "morality" of homosexuality? Do you know there are millions of devoted, gay Christians and others who affirm and love them for who they are? Do you realize Jesus never talked about homosexuality? So where's your moral high ground now - except on the Island of Bigotry?
RGA in AA
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 10:02 p.m.
That is just silly on a number of levels. Let's consider your proposal for a moment (more than it deserves, I might add). The person seeking services would have had to have known Miss Ward was a Christian who felt that working with people who did not meet her moral standards was beneath her. The liklihood of this being the case is virtually nil. Then they would have had to in some way ensure that they were assigned to her for couseling when they went to the University Health Program. Then as to your assertion that there is "no discrimination because somebody made a choice" (I also take issue with your assumption that one's orientation is a choice, but that is a discussion for another time---I'll meet you on the field of your choice in this battle) Take your blinders off! In the 1960's people who chose to love people of another race were discriminated against. If you chose to be a Christian or a practicing Jew in Iran or Saudi Arabia you are discriminated against. If you chose to be a pro-democracy demonstrator in China you are discriminated against.
RGA in AA
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 8:13 p.m.
Poor Jesus. People persist in using him as an excuse for their bad behavior. Ms. Ward may claim to be a "Christian"...but seriously folks, read your bible. How many times is Jesus, the living Christ, reported to have turned away someone during their time of need? How many times is he reported to have referred an individual in needs of assistance to someone else because he could not be bothered? Her actions in this case do not reflect what Jesus would have done and then she compounds her bad behavior by projecting it upon the living Christ! Puhleez! Own your own actions and then ask for forgiveness from he who made you.
Ann23
Fri, Jun 15, 2012 : 7:16 a.m.
Otherwise, why would I need him for salvation?
Ann23
Fri, Jun 15, 2012 : 7:10 a.m.
I don't see any evidence that Julea professed to be just like Jesus. She is fully human. While I may believe in Jesus and strive to follow his teachings, I do not believe that as an imperfect, human, sinner, I have the same capabilities as him.
YpsiVeteran
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 11:42 p.m.
Right RGA. Not to mention the fact that she failed to meet the requirements of the program. No one has said she can't have her beliefs. It's her choice to participate in the program and to select a program with a professional code of ethics that plainly spell out what's expected. It's interesting to me that in a parallel situation, say an observant Jewish medical school student who has to work on Saturdays as part his rotations, you've never heard of a similar situation. Once someone meets the requirements to complete the program, they are free to practice as they see fit, and to refer whomever they want. First you have to qualify, which she, of her own free will, chose not to do.
RGA in AA
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 9:52 p.m.
I resent the allegation that I am attempting to "mock Christians". I'll have you know that I've been a Christian for the better part of my 64 years. If what I am saying makes you feel uncomfortable I suggest you take a look at yourself instead of projecting your discomfort on to me or my words. This "counselor" did turn away the individual who reached out to her for help. Granted, he wasn't stranded....I never said that he was. I suggest you take a look at the parable of the Good Samaritan. Now would you say that Miss Ward's actions are more like the priest and the Levite or more like the Samaritan?
Middle America
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 9:28 p.m.
There is no value in pointing out that Jesus never turned away those who needed help but modern day "Christians" find it completely acceptable to do so? Also, how is RGA mocking Christians?
Silly Sally
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 8:46 p.m.
Get real. She didn't "turn away someone during their time of need" It is not as if without her, the person was stranded. Instead, she refered him or her to someone who would do a better job; who would have that person's interest's at heart. "...during their time of need..." "Puhleez" sic @RGA is using this as a very poor excuse to mock Christians, and I'm not buying it, as there is no value to the comment. So silly!
Lola
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 7:55 p.m.
Very simply put, she forgot to ask herself "What would Jesus do?" Even as an Atheist I know that he would not have done what she did. It's people like Ms. Ward who give Christians a bad name.
YpsiVeteran
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 11:34 p.m.
Why Michigan Man? Wouldn't the objective perspective of someone outside the fray be of value to anyone wishing to be fully informed? Who would you think more credible in any situation, the person selling you something, who stands to gain financially from your participation, or the person who's not selling anything but has knowledge of the product?
Michigan Man
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 11:03 p.m.
Always get a laugh when atheist give free advice about religion!
Middle America
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 9:25 p.m.
Yes, Silly Sally, really. Bigots using Christianity as an excuse to discriminate are not good Christians.
Silly Sally
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 8:40 p.m.
Really?
John Hritz
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 7:49 p.m.
Swimming against the tide, I realize. I agree that it's a bad bill and I wish Ms Ward could find it in her heart to serve without having her personal interests take precedence. I suspect that there is a very narrow set of job prospects for someone who wants to be that choosy about who they see. BUT...the relevant detail that is missed in my view is that she was not told by her adviser that referring the client would result in her being kicked out of the program. At least there's nothing in the court transcript or the transcript from the hearing that revealed any such warning. After the referral was accepted, she was told that her actions would be up for review. For lack of a better word, that's a sort of entrapment. There is nothing in the professional standards that say that a counselor can't refer a client. And people DO refer clients for all sorts of noble and petty reasons including excess case load, conflict of interest and a lack of familiarity with a particular problem. I agree that it is odd to have a student make a referral as part of their clinical training.
ann_arbor_guy
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 7:01 p.m.
I thought all religious beliefs were already protected by the federal government. Isn't protection from discrimination for religious beliefs a federal equal opportunity law for people who choose to be religious, regardless of which religious lifestyle they choose? I do not see why we need any additional legislation for people with religious beliefs when they are already a protected class of people. I do not understand how these people get elected to government, I thought Michigan needed jobs and a more robust economy, how is this helping that initiative?
Henry Ruger
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 6:39 p.m.
Ward didn't refuse to counsel gay students; she said she would be happy to counsel gay students. She didn't even refuse to counsel gay students about their sexuality. But she couldn't counsel gay students about their sexuality if she was forced to "affirm" their behavior. She didn't just refer the client in question. She asked her professor what to do and was told to refer the client. Read the briefs!
Irislover
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 11:17 p.m.
She would be "affirming" the client's experience, which is her job as a counselor--not her acceptance of it or anything related to her personal beliefs. This is where the problem lies: she seems to have a basic lack of understanding about what her role as a mental health professional is. It's not about her beliefs, it's about helping the client make sense of his or her experience. In no way should this woman's personal beliefs be inserted into the counseling whether she agrees or disagrees with what the client is engaging in. That's not her role.
Silly Sally
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 8:49 p.m.
Very interesting. I wish the article had mentioned this fact.
HBA
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 6:35 p.m.
When are our legislators going to wake up to the fact that our nation is based on separation of Church and state. I remember so well when President Kennedy spoke of his Catholic faith and the fact that he would be president of all the people and that his faith was a personal matter. That should be the same guiding principle for all, be they doctors, nurses, pharmacists, counselors, etc. etc. Right on, EMU. We hope you continue to prevail despite the laws that our current legislators deem necessary to enshrine the name of someone who violates the basic principles on which our country has been founded.
Middle America
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 10:23 p.m.
Yes, Silly Sally, that creeping liberal hand is creating a slippery slope which might result in nonsensical movie roles - the true end of modern civilization.
Silly Sally
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 8:57 p.m.
There is no "separation of church and state". That is not in the US Constitution. It is a liberal myth. What is in the constitution is that "Congress shall make no establishment of religion..." i.e. a Church of the United States just as there was a Church of England. I detect the creeping hand of liberalism in your comment. First comes the legislation that medical personal in emergency rooms can't turn people away, which makes sense, then that is extended to all patients.. Now I see many on these postings confusing patients with clients, a BIG leap. Soon it will be all. Taken to its absurdity, a man could be chosen to play a woman in a movie, or a girl to play an old man, or a white person to play an African American... Where does it end?
Jennifer
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 5:04 p.m.
I am a social work student at Eastern, and I agree with the university's stance against the bill. The NASW Code of Ethics states that we as helping professionals have an obligation to serve our clients and not place our own value judgments upon them, as this interferes greatly with the helping process and hinders the individual from getting the complete scope of services that they need. Plenty of social workers who are agnostic or nondenominational work within agencies founded on Christian principles, and many workers who are in straight relationships are able to work with those of the LGBTQ community. What, are we we as professionals going to do, submit a list of those "undesirables" that we are unable to service due to personal biases when we enter the field? For me, this totally undermines the concepts of social justice and acceptance that helping professionals fight so hard for, for all people.
YpsiArbor
Fri, Jun 15, 2012 : 3:06 a.m.
Please write to your legislators. Better yet, call them. They need to hear the voice of reason from someone who is Julea Ward's peer. You could really help by doing this.
simone66
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 10 p.m.
Keep up the great work at EMU Jennifer! All counselors should be as open minded as you.
treetowncartel
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 4:36 p.m.
Great, and now they are off for summer recess only to return in the fall for some more distracting legislation. While I think they shouldn't have summers off, at least they won't be working on things that have nothing to do with turning around our economy and making government more efficient.
genetracy
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 3:58 p.m.
If Ms Ward was Muslim, you libs would be feeling all warm and fuzzy right now.
genetracy
Fri, Jun 15, 2012 : 3:15 p.m.
YA, it is just that some people delude themselves in their selective outrage.
YpsiArbor
Fri, Jun 15, 2012 : 3:04 a.m.
What's your point, genetracy? You think it's okay to discriminate on any basis?
bedrog
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 8:31 p.m.
i'm a liberal and would be delighted if a muslim fundamentalist * would -be counsellor ( witjh all the misogyny and homophobia that absolutely implies ) was sacked from such a program ....and i'd be outraged if they weren't . and moderators. I said 'fundamentalist ' specifically...not any, more moderate ,muslim.
northside
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 6:50 p.m.
(1) No. (2) Religious conservatives would be up in arms about this, screaming 'Sharia Law!'
KarenH
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 3:37 p.m.
Should she be allowed to refuse to provide services to an interracial couple because she has racist beliefs? It's no different to refuse a gay couple because of bigoted, homophobic beliefs. Racism and gay bigotry cannot be hidden behind religion anymore. Neither has a place in our society and EMU was right to refuse to give in to such blatant homophobia.
YpsiVeteran
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 3:30 p.m.
A2Dave is right on. If this situation involved a white person who refused to see a black person because of "religion," the world would have come to an end. If this female had been refused treatment because she was married to a white guy, or simply because the practitioner had a "religious" objection to people of color, the screaming and uproar would have been heard in space. This situation is not one bit different. This woman is not suited to the profession, period. She didn't even hear what the prospective client's issue was. What if it was stress over a death in the family, or generalized depression, or any other of a million non-sexual issues most people deal with on a daily basis? This woman purely and simply objected to the client's very existence, as proven by the fact she didn't even know his problem before she refused to see him. She is an embarrassment. I can only hope the Senate will kill this bill or the Governor will veto it if it gets to him.
SMAIVE
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 5:25 p.m.
Don't count on Snyder's veto, he'll keep signing away with his party to get his agenda across, regardless of collateral damage.
YpsiVeteran
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 3:46 p.m.
Also Michigan Man, the article says the bill passed 59 to 50. Did you just make up the "large margin" part?
YpsiVeteran
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 3:43 p.m.
Your propensity for jumping to inaccurate conclusions, as illustrated by your inaccurate declaration of my "hometown," doesn't add any credibility to your post.
Michigan Man
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 3:37 p.m.
Ypsi - sorry for bad news this AM. So far, the bill has been approved by a large margin. Senate is right on track for approval and our fine GOP Governor will jump at the chance to sign into law this bill. You should be pleased that your hometown University has been rebuked and this woman who has been discriminated against will receive the pleasant nectar of justice. The Ann Arbor/Ypsi bubble is just out of step these days with modern culture.
A2Dave
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 2:55 p.m.
Oldtimer3: I missed the part where Clownfish referred to Sharia Law. Thought Clownfish's comment referred to the absence of "Christian Charity" in Ms. Ward's position? In fact, I missed any reference to or relevance of Sharia Law in this discussion. Other than suggesting your own Islamophobia, I don't get it. Explain?
A2Dave
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 2:46 p.m.
So Doctors can refuse to treat gay people, or blacks, or Muslims, or Scientologists, right? Clinics can refuse to provide care, pharmacists can refuse to dispense medications, etc., etc., etc. Discrimination against the religious is not at issue here. Discrimination by the religious, on the basis of their religion, is being legally institutionalized by this type of legislation--it is not ensuring religious freedom, it is empowering discrimination on religious grounds. Until 1978, Mormons discriminated against African-Americans on religious grounds. Racial intermarriage was illegal because it was proscribed in the Old Testament. What is to stop religious groups and organizations from returning to this kind of social crime--tax free, no less, actually subsidized by us--the tax payer--regardles of our beliefs. If professionals want to discriminate against potential patients on religious grounds, they should be denied licenses to practice. Period.
Rork Kuick
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 8:10 p.m.
Perhaps the best summary, A2Dave. And I second the motion about Michigan Man's argument. Disingenuous has been perfected after long practice.
YpsiVeteran
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 3:39 p.m.
Michigan Man, way to twist A2Dave's post. Treatment can be denied because of illegal or threatening behavior, or conflict of interest, not because of religious bias on the part of the practitioner.
Michigan Man
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 3:29 p.m.
A2 - Welcome to reality. Yes, private hospitals/clinics/physician offices can indeed refuse to provide healthcare. Been that way for decades. What cave do you live in?
Macabre Sunset
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 2:17 p.m.
And here I thought that we had to go as far as Kansas to find a state legislature willing to make its state a laughing stock in the name of religion.
Madeleine Borthwick
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 1:49 p.m.
Ms. Ward, have you read the part in the bible where it says not to judge? have you also read the part where it says that ALL of us are sinners? turning someone away who comes to you for help is, to my way of thinking, a form of judgement("begone unclean spirit!"). If you can't put your personal beliefs on the back burner long enough to help someone who needs and wants it, then you got exactly what you deserved and I suggest that you find another line of work. Maybe at Taco Bell. Gay or Straight, Love is Great!!
YpsiVeteran
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 11:28 p.m.
Terri, that's HILARIOUS.
Terri Eagen-Torkko
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 8:17 p.m.
blue, you need to be in the database. Please report to the queer ol' census table at your next pride event to register. In 4-6 weeks, you'll receive the current agenda, either via email or snail mail according to the documents that you completed. Once you attend four meetings, you will be awarded your handbook. Prizes and prize levels for recruitment vary by region--please see your regional director for details. Let's Gay UP the State!
Blue Marker
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 6:33 p.m.
I didn't even know there was a "gay agenda" until now. Can I get a copy? Is there going to be a quiz?
SMAIVE
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 3:01 p.m.
Seriously? "Gay Agenda"? I suggest reading about depression, suicide and mental health and really do some thinking, Thinker!
thinker
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 2:50 p.m.
We don't know what her client was requesting. If he was merely confused, she could have counselled him. If he was asking her permission to pursue his gay agenda, then she had to follow her conscience.
TheGerman
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 1:39 p.m.
Nothing like establishing yourself like having a bill named after you for being a homophobe. Also the caption under the picture has her last name spelled wrong.
OLDTIMER3
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 1:02 p.m.
@clownfish, have you really looked into sharia law? do you really think it is a good idea in this country?
Middle America
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 9:21 p.m.
"OLDTIMER3", your username is very fitting.
bedrog
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 6:52 p.m.
Here are jesus words on gay matters: ( intentionally left blank) thanks for your attention. and for the record ,any literal religious interpretation of ancient middle eastern tribesmen--- a topic on which i know a fair amount , having lived among desert nomads and peasants and written a dissertation on them and their history ) is a pretty lousy template for the 21st century, anywhere....no matter how romantic it may seem in sunday school bible stories, or on the big screen ( "lawrence of arabia" is what inspired my professional career and ,boy ,do i feel let down nowadays!).
northside
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 6:48 p.m.
@ Michigan Man: Your claim that the Bible is simply God's word and not open to interpretation or cultural influence shows that you don't even have basic knowledge of your own religion. What's considered appropriate among Christians has changed dramatically across time and also varies by denomination. Most Christians I know would have no problem counseling a gay person and are appalled by what this student are her well-funded legal team are doing. Oh, and we're still waiting for an answer to clownfish's question concerning what exactly Jesus said about homosexuality.
clownfish
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 3:35 p.m.
There are 20,000-30,000 Christian denominations in the world. Obviously some one is choosing which words are more important than others. When they can come together and agree then we can use those words to set government policy. Not long ago a lot of Christians used the bible to support slavery, I would submit that they were picking and choosing. Even closer in time, many people used The Bible to justify "separate but equal". I know lots of Christians that have no problem with homosexuality, they choose to give little credence to the few lines that mention it. Some Christians believe in the death penalty, others do not. To say that"We do not pick and choose selected sections which tend to fit our cultural thinking at the moment" is to deny history. Catholicism in the 12th century is not the same as it is in the 21st. We digress.
clownfish
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 3:25 p.m.
What were Jesus exact words on homosexuality? I can quote you some alleged words about poverty.
Michigan Man
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 1:42 p.m.
Clown - incorrect again! Christians understand the entire Bible as holy. We do not pick and choose selected sections which tend to fit our cultural thinking at the moment. Not sure if you have blown the dust off your Bible recently, but the Bible is very difficult to understand - it has many lessons, parables, metaphors, etc. Here is some free advice for you relative to the Bible - Read it to be wise, believe it to be safe and practice it to be holy. It is a mine of wealth, health to the soul and a river of pleasure. It my help you eradicate your hate!
clownfish
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 1:13 p.m.
Never said it was. I am just wondering why a select group of people want to pass laws specifically outlawing ONE religions take on contract law, marriage, usury etc, then these same people go out and say that our laws should be bases on "Judeao-Christian" beliefs. Then, those people pick and choose tiny parts of scripture to enforce while ignoring the overriding message of those texts, loving one another and caring for the less fortunate. I see it as hypocrisy. If you don't, that is what freedom is all about.
lumberg48108
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 1:01 p.m.
Same post I usually post conflicts arise in all professions of this kind are protocols are in place to deal with the conflicts of interest ... if you get counseled by someone how have you been short changed? how have you been damaged? to pretend conflicts do not exist and you have some right to be treated by someone who has an issue with you concerns me ... you have a right to be treated - period! i was under the impression this department has a methodology for dealing with conflicts and eventually, this was done based on that scenario I do not know why she was fired nor why a lawsuit had to result from this other than EMU feeling the need to be PC and the state house is now pandering to right wing voters with this bill also, eventually, she will win
SMAIVE
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 5:20 p.m.
Actually she wasn't fired, she CHOSE to not follow the accreditation standards of EMU. As was said previously, she ought to have gone to a private religous school, but instead now wants to force her specific belief system on a taxpayer supported institution.
ILJ
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 1:20 p.m.
There is a difference between a conflict of interest and discrimination. Declining to counsel someone because he's your brother-in-law is dealing with a conflict of interest. Declining to counsel someone because they do not live by your religious code is discrimination. Ms. Ward is free to believe that all kinds of things are sins and to avoid doing those things. But she cannot realistically expect to become a counselor and then exclude clients who do not adhere to her religious beliefs. If she wishes to do that, maybe there is some church-related counseling training she can pursue, instead of the secular program at a state university.
Silly Sally
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 1:01 p.m.
EMU was wrong, and they spend taxpayer money on this case. Now they will raise tuition to pay for this. Shame on them.
bobslowson
Fri, Jun 15, 2012 : 8:47 p.m.
But what about the bathrooms or the locker rooms? Silly....living up to her screen name once again...
Middle America
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 9:20 p.m.
Yeah, I really want Silly Sally to chime in on her views on coed locker rooms and other issues involving separate facilities for men and women. It is her trademark nonsensical argument.
bedrog
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 8:27 p.m.
yeah ...and next they'll be supporting coed locker rooms . right??
YpsiVeteran
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 3:18 p.m.
Perhaps not Macabre...the Senate could still kill it, and/or the Governor could still veto it.
Macabre Sunset
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 2:24 p.m.
EMU was fighting for its reputation in this case. If it had allowed Julea accreditation, it would have damaged the credentials of every past and future graduate from its psychology program. However, now the damage will extend to the rest of Michigan's universities. All the shame is on the sue-happy religious person who decided she was more important than her prospective profession.
Veracity
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 12:49 p.m.
In order to understand the full impact that refusal to counsel might have, one must ask what should happen if this scenario played out in a small sized community which had only the one counselor and no way to refer to another counselor who would be in close proximity. Lawyers defend clients that they know are guilty and are successful at times in averting appropriate punishment that their clients deserve for their crimes. Yet our laws assure that the accused receive such legal services. I am sure that every lawyer prefers not to defend guilty clients. The counseling societies and those that accredit counselors should develop guidelines for dealing with religious preferences as they effect delivery of services. Besides refusing to provide care for homosexuals, some counselors may wish to refuse service to child abusers and Muslims, for examples. Should such prejudices justify counselors' refusal of care?
Jim Osborn
Fri, Jun 15, 2012 : 11:40 a.m.
Lawyers do not have to take the case. There is no such law. Defense lawyers defend guilty people for the money. It is that simple.
Terri Eagen-Torkko
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 8:15 p.m.
Those guidelines exist. What this student did is against them.
lumberg48108
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 1:04 p.m.
i am not sure you understand what a conflict of interest is a lawyer defending a guilty client is not a conflict a lawyer defending a client accused of murdering his/her family would be a conflict that is an extreme example but the point is made
Chase Ingersoll
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 12:49 p.m.
So this is sort of "stand your ground" legislation on defense of beliefs rather than defense of body and property. Yes, the statute is reactionary, but so are the accrediting policies cited by Leigh Greden, which are basically about qualifying the program for...........public funds. This is what you get in an education system that is financed by borrowing, both publicly and privately - all that borrowed money attracting all of these flies who can't compete in the private sector themselves, fighting over how to control public money so that it goes to the people and causes they like. I agree with Bennett that if we get rid of the financial aid, we would reduce the cost of college and solve a lot of the litigation involving these institutions. http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/02/is-financial-aid-really-making-college-more-expensive/253153/
northside
Fri, Jun 15, 2012 : 12:57 p.m.
The 'stand your ground' analogy is fitting, the lone problem being that it's 'stand your ground' in defense of bigotry. You can't refuse to serve an entire group of people if you want to enter a profession like counseling.
Elijah Shalis
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 12:24 p.m.
The APA should pull certification from all Michigan universities then.
Billy
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 12:10 p.m.
"She said doing so conflicted with her Christian religious beliefs. She instead referred the student to another counselor." Sounds like she did exactly what she was supposed to do without creating a scene or even causing a problem. Why was she expelled again?
Jim Osborn
Fri, Jun 15, 2012 : 11:37 a.m.
This does seem like a sensible approach and the right thing to do. If it had been me, and IF I had her strong convictions and biases, I would have at least kept the appointment, spoken with the client and after explaining my biases, given him or her the option of a different counselor. EMU would be on stronger ground if they had pursued the missed appointment instead of the reason behind it.
LatersBaby
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 3:59 p.m.
@SillSally @MichiganMan I find your arguments irrelevant...this student had simply made an appointment and showed up as a Gay individual. Not causing any sort of scene...so tell me why she could not help him? Perhaps the better move for her to make would have been to see him, speak with the student and then asked if he wanted perhaps a referral to speak with someone who could relate to his situation more. I do feel that expulsion may have been a bit overboard, a dismissal from the program seems more appropriate seeings how she obviously is not set out for this type of profession.
Michigan Man
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 1:35 p.m.
Billy - Your thinking is right on target! SS - was the Practice Administrator, for years, at a large private psychiatry practice. When our pissed off patients called the office and threatened to bomb the building - you are quite correct - we immediately discharged the patient from the practice - rather hard to find a psychiatrist who then wanted to take care of the patient. BTW - my 1st call was to law enforcement so that the former patient could be picked up/detained/arrested - whatever law enforcement deemed proper.
Silly Sally
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 1 p.m.
"medical profession" She was a counselor, not a doctor or a nurse at an emergency room. Outside of that, why should a doctor be required to treat anyone? Must a lawyer take any case? No. An accountant? No. If someone is loud and nasty, why should a doctor's office by forced to keep him instead of telling him to leave? They can, and do. I've seen it happen.
tdw
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 12:43 p.m.
Elijah......Counseling at a university is not a medical profession.Didn't you know that ?
craigjjs
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 12:37 p.m.
The quoted text is lazy and incorrect. The motion transcript stated that twenty minutes before his appointment, she discovered he was gay, called her professor and refused to see him. It was not a referral.
clownfish
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 12:27 p.m.
Because she is supposed to be training as a counselor, not a Sharia Counselor.
Elijah Shalis
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 12:25 p.m.
People in the medical profession are not supposed to refuse care to anyone. Didn't you know that.
Topher
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 12:08 p.m.
Can we please add Education to this list? I find it morally reprehensible to teach certain students whose beliefs are drastically different from mine. Perhaps these teachers, social workers, psychologists, and counselors (who are public workers) should just hand a list to the people they serve explaining what they will and will not help them with.
Ann23
Fri, Jun 15, 2012 : 2:36 a.m.
And some are recordings of what was said or presented by all parties during a hearing. True, accurate, biased, evidenced, or not.
Ann23
Fri, Jun 15, 2012 : 2:23 a.m.
YpsiVeteran, whether she was kicked out of Eastern or the counseling program makes little difference in my opinion. Not all counseling positions are funded by public institutions and she could easily be a good private counselor. Your response to Mike seems to make assumptions. Further, just because a court document states something doesn't make it true. There are many different types of court documents. Some are orders from a Judge, some are orders agreed on by two parties, some are motions filed by one party that consists or information true or not, biased or not, provided by one side of the issue. Others are responses to such motions provided by the other party that also may or may not be true or biased. Some of the points made in these documents have solid evidence to back them up, some do not.
YpsiVeteran
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 11:25 p.m.
Mike, since she never saw the student, we have no idea, nor did she, about the issue for which the student was seeking counseling. She refused to see him just prior to his appointment, then, according to the court documents, refused to cooperate with the program's investigation into the incident. Apparently, to her, his very existence as a gay person was objectionable to her. The fact that he could have been seeking advice about a school problem or a work relationship, or grief counseling over the loss of a loved one, didn't make any difference to her. She displayed blatant discrimination and intolerance, and was rightly kicked out of the program.
YpsiVeteran
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 11:19 p.m.
Ann23, she wasn't kicked out of school; she was kicked out of the counseling program.
Mike
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 10:21 p.m.
Counseling a student about a gay relationship issue when you find it morally reprehensable would be wrong. Her decision to recommend another counselor was the right one. Would you want to be counseled by someone who didn't have your best interest at heart. This is just another example of "if you don't accept my lifestyle you will be punished". Whatever happened to the progressive who say they accept everyone? Very two faced .............
Ann23
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 10:16 p.m.
I don't think Julea should have been kicked out of school for her decision. Just like I don't think an Athiest education student should be kicked out of a public university for not wanting to teach religion in a Christian school.
Ann23
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 10:04 p.m.
Topher, I don't think we do. I agree with Julea's decision. Unless I'm misinterpreting your commets on this issue, you don't. I am not saying that a public school teacher should be able to have my child removed from my child's classroom(s) or school if they find they can't do their job properly when it comes to my child because of fundamental differences in religious and lifestyle beliefs. Nor am I saying they should be protected from loosing their position if they are unable to teach my child because their personal biases get in the way. Nor am I saying that a counselor's employment should be protected in such circumstances. I certainly would not continue to employ and pay them. However the two professions are very different in basic structure and parameters. And, yes, having been a teacher I have first-hand knowledge if everything that involves. I do not want my children's teachers performing the depth of advising and counseling that the counselor I have personally chosen for my children does. I want somebody with the proper credentials handling that.
Topher
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 6:26 p.m.
Thanks for clarifying, YpsiArbor. The good news: Ann23 - we're on the same page! The bad news: Is satire dead?
YpsiArbor
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 6 p.m.
FYI - Topher is being sarcastic, Ann.
Ann23
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 4:09 p.m.
Also, please refrain from counseling them on more personal matters such as sexual activity. If I want somebody to do that, I will hire a counselor who does not find it "reprehensible" to work with them because of their beliefs. I would not be happy if I did hire a counselor who strongly disagreed with our beliefs and didn't tell me. I would very much prefer they say they can't council my children and refer us to someone else.
Ann23
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 3:54 p.m.
Topher, if you find it "reprehensible" then Please, Please, choose not to teach those students. I would not want you teaching my kids if you find their beliefs are drastically different from yours and therefore consider teaching them to be morally reprehensible.
clownfish
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 11:54 a.m.
Where is this Christianity when people are living in a freeway median?
Middle America
Fri, Jun 15, 2012 : 6:25 a.m.
I bet that prayer vigil ended homelessness.
Julius
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 3:18 p.m.
I see an opportunity for someone to lead by example. Unless you're just using this as a rhetorical point.
clownfish
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 1:22 p.m.
MIMAN, please quote back to me my "hate". All I am asking is "Where is the concern for the impoverished equal to the concern for the unborn"? We have new laws limiting freedoms for gay people, requiring new restrictions on stem cell research, now a new law creating new government workers to inspect Dr's offices etc. I have yet to see a law come from our "Christian right" GOP that addresses homelessness and poverty. That is not hatred, just like asking you to not require me to pray before a football game is not an "attack on Christianity".
clownfish
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 1:18 p.m.
OLDTIMER, what has the state GOP led congress done to help the homeless in this state? They seem to have a lot of time to talk about and pass laws regarding my gay friends, zygotes, and frozen cells but I am hard pressed to find legislation that helps out the less fortunate. I am willing to put this down to ignorance on my part, so please post some links to legislation pending or passed that directly helps those with the most need. Thanks.
Michigan Man
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 1:12 p.m.
Clown - Not sure what your definition of a Christian would be, if you really have one? My operational definition of a Christian is really quite simple - We are here to serve others like Christ did, in the name of our savior (Jesus Christ). Let me throw in the Hope Clinic to all of the fine organization and faithful community leaders mentioned by Bill, Jim and Oldtimer. Your hate speech directed at Christians is really rather juvenile.
OLDTIMER3
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 12:59 p.m.
every tueday at a church in A2,a group has a program called VESPERS where a different church supplies dinner for a bubch of homeless people. I forget the name of the church where they do this.
clownfish
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 12:32 p.m.
Jim, when I used my real name to get letters in the Olde Ann Arbor News I was frequently harassed, often by people leaving obscene messages and threats by phone and post. I was shocked by the level of vitriol, and the inclusion of scripture pointing out my closeness to death and retribution on this Earth. Don't you find it even a BIT ironic that the GOP wants to outlaw Sharia Law, but never finds an end to the ways "scripture can guide our law making"?
clownfish
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 12:25 p.m.
Bill, clearly those resources are inadequate as we still have people without homes and access to medical care. How about a law that says we will no longer tolerate poverty? Thousands showed up across the state to protest new laws requiring insurance companies to cover contraception, which barely gets a mention in the Bible. Why were there not thousands of people protesting homelessness and poverty in the state, there are hundreds of mentions in The Bible about that.
Jim Osborn
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 12:24 p.m.
St. Mary Student Parish on Thompson Street (intersection with William St) in Ann Arbor. I'm so glad that you asked. Tonight at 7 PM they are having a prayer vigil about it, why not attend so you can also learn about all of the other things that have been done? A letter and phone call campaign about the topic to legislators to protest the closing of CTN. Many other outreach and help for the homeless. What have YOU done, besides make snide remarks, "clownfish", and hide behind a moniker?
Bill
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 12:18 p.m.
Salvation Army, Compassion International, Charity Motors, Catholic Family Services, Bread for the World, World Vision, Lutheran World Relief, Mercy Ships, Samaritan's Purse, not to mention the "out of the headlines" work of thousands of churches everywhere. More people are needed to join in these efforts to help - you are openly invited and welcome.
ILJ
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 11:15 a.m.
So she wants to be able to decline gay clients because they clash with her own personal ethics. I would assume drug use and alcohol abuse are against her own personal ethics. So would she want to send all addicts to another counselor? I assume abortion is against her own personal ethics. So would she want to send all women who want to talk about having an abortion to another counselor? If this person cannot counsel someone just because that person has actions and beliefs that run counter to her own personal ethics, then she should choose another profession. There will be very few clients walking through her door that she will be willing and able to counsel, if the test is they cannot have actions or beliefs that run counter to her religion.
Irislover
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 11:07 p.m.
Thank you ILJ. Counseling another person is about helping the client make sense of THEIR experience, not your own beliefs. If a person lacks the basic skills to empathize with another person's experience--regardless of whether it adheres to their own values or not--they lack the most fundamental requirement of being a mental health professional and should not be doing this work! This is the basis of the codes of ethics of all the mental health professions.
thinker
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 2:58 p.m.
Not the same thing. Presumably she was not to counsel this young gentleman to resist his gay-ness not was he asking to be "cured". Drug addicts and alcoholics come to a social worker presumably to get help to overcome their addiction. Different situation.
craigjjs
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 12:33 p.m.
She apparently mistook counseling from theology.
The Black Stallion3
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 11:20 a.m.
Thank you Jesus
Pickforddick
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 10:57 a.m.
Great decision......I would have sent him to another also.
Terri Eagen-Torkko
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 8:13 p.m.
Then I can only assume you aren't a social worker, as that flies in the face of the NASW Code of Ethics.
Unusual Suspect
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 12:40 p.m.
craig, he just did
craigjjs
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 12:31 p.m.
A conclusion based upon ignorance. Read the transcript and the briefs; then tell us it is a great decision with a straight face.
McGiver
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 10:54 a.m.
Never would have happened if she was Muslim , but Christian? So much easier to get away with it. Hope she gets a good jury.
northside
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 6:40 p.m.
McGiver you're spot on in identifying one of the ironies of all of this. If she were Muslim, conservative Christians would be screaming "Sharia Law! Sharia Law!"
The Black Stallion3
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 11:33 a.m.
I agree
Carole
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 10:45 a.m.
If this individual felt uncomfortable counseling some one no matter what, it is best to refer that individual to some one else. I surely would not want to be counseled by someone who would obviously not be helping me out and would appreciate a referral.
simone66
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 9:55 p.m.
You are correct Carole, but a real counselor should be able to put aside judgments and biases and counsel people who seek their help and advise. To just refer client to another counselor because of religious beliefs... I reckon that person is not fit to be a true counselor.
thinker
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 2:46 p.m.
And that's what she did. Look where it got her.
Jim Osborn
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 10:38 a.m.
This headline is misleading. She didn't refuse to counsel the client and turn him away but simply referred hem to another who would have his interests at heart. Would he, and EMU, rather have her stay in the closet so to speak and pretend that all is fine? Professionals refer potential clients to others all the time. Imagine a female lawyer who is a public defender who had been raped in the past. What if she had been asked to defend a man accused of rape? If I were that man, I would appreciate her honesty in referring me to another, rather than going through the motions just to please a university to graduate. Someone who would actually be an advocate foe me. After all, it is my life, too! Ward did not "refuse to counsel the gay student" and send him or her packing, but handled the situation in a professional matter.
bedrog
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 6:44 p.m.
ct...i suggest that ward should never have been admitted...anymore than a creationist should be admitted to credible evolutionary biology program or a 'flat earther' to a geology or astronomy one. all such cases seem like 'stealth' strategies by zealots intent on undermining the canons and standards of their profession ( as indeed creationists were encouraged to do at one point by the jerry falwell and duane gish types.)
Lola
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 3:43 p.m.
CT, it's called separation of church and state.
Macabre Sunset
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 2:20 p.m.
The school did the right thing, though. This profession is not for someone who cannot separate the needs of any patient above her own.
CT
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 1:50 p.m.
Bedrog, You say that Christians face no discrimination in this country and yet you just proposed that Ward and other who share her beliefs should be removed from counseling programs at tax-funded universities?
bedrog
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 1:20 p.m.
Lest there be any misunderstanding of my response to Jim Osborne, i'm still no fan of Ward's and the views she represents.....i simply acknowledge the validity of osbornes implication ( although he would no doubt express it quite differently) that covert bigotry can be more damaging than overt bigotry when it comes to counselling, via the 'truth in advertising " principle .. i wish that EMU and other counselling programs in secular , state funded institutions had ways to determine and screen out folks like Ward earlier in the education process . She and everyone else, including her potential clients would have been better served by getting her training at an openly doctrinaire place like Bob Jones " U", liberty " U" etc instead of wasting her and EMU's time... That way she'd get clients that shared her narrowminded worldview instead of the probable harm she's already caused a gay client by her " highminded" public rejection of him/her as a patient ( in a field that presumably follws the medical "do no harm" edict).
ILJ
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 12:58 p.m.
Yes, if you are going to be in a helping profession that serves members of the general public, you don't get to exclude whole sections of the public based upon the fact that they don't adhere to your religion. As for a racist counselor "pretending" to help someone they would rather discriminate against: Education programs like the one at EMU do a decent job of weeding these types of people out of the profession. They aren't able to complete the program unless they keep their bias tightly under wraps. And if they're keeping their bias hidden from everyone, they are doing what they are supposed to -- they are keeping their own beliefs out of the picture while serving a client that has come to them for help.
Silly Sally
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 12:49 p.m.
@northside - I would not want a racist black counselor to pretend to "help" me, either, and waste my time, or worse. I rather that they be honest and refer me to someone else. For the record, I have had good African American counselors, and I am grateful for their advice and help.
northside
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 12:28 p.m.
I can't believe people put forth arguments like this. There's no connection whatsoever between a professional occasionally referring an individual client to someone else and a professional refusing to serve to an entire group of people. These were the same types of arguments used to support legal discrimination against ethnic/racial minorities in the pre-Civil Rights era. Why are we still dealing with them 50 years later?
craigjjs
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 12:27 p.m.
I suggest you reacquaint your self with the actual facts in the case. The student was scheduled to be seen by her for some time. Twenty minutes before the appointment, she realizes he is gain, calls her boss and refuses to treat him (that is not a referral). She then refused to cooperate with the panel investigating it. This behavior clashes with the ethics and rules of her chosen professions. She, typically for the downtrodden Christians, wants the benefits of the profession but the right to reject those she finds insufficiently God-like.
Jim Osborn
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 12:16 p.m.
It is not "damage", but just not helping, which is what the student / client needed. Get someone who will really care, instead. Sometimes it can be a personality clash, not a sexual orientation issue. People are people, we are not all the same. This is what diversity is about.
bedrog
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 10:55 a.m.
actually--although i opposed Ward and her zealot supporters from the outset---this is a sensible post in recognizing that a closeted homophobe counsellor could do more damage than an open one like Ward.
northside
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 10:34 a.m.
Nobody plays victim better than conservative Christians.
northside
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 6:37 p.m.
LOL, Clownfish.
clownfish
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 6:01 p.m.
Yes, I am sure that a hospital being required to cover medication for it's employees ranks right up there with "colored only" drinking fountains and the strange fruit the KKK used to hang in the South.
thinker
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 2:56 p.m.
Clown-Christians are facing some of the biggest discrimination challenges of the century in the HHS mandate recently mandated by Sibelius and Obama. Yes, Christians are under attack, big time! All of our religious freedoms are being threatened, as well as, in the future, how many children, sex of children etc. If you give in to the government in one thing, they will get their foot in the door and step up the "mandates".
Michigan Man
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 1:15 p.m.
Clown - Your lack of facts about Christianity and Christians is lacking! Of the 12 ordinary men who followed Christ (disciples) 11 of the 12 were killed (murdered?) for their Christian convictions and actions. John was the only disciple who died a "natural death". Please brush up on your reading of the Christian faith, otherwise your comments are silly.
clownfish
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 1:07 p.m.
Sally, no question Christians face problems in those places, but not in the USA. I am unclear on why Romes treatment of Christians in the Colosseum should influence laws being passed in MI in 2012. How do you think gay people fare in China?
Silly Sally
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 12:44 p.m.
@clownfish - I just don't remember Christians being... tied to a fence post and left to die" No, worse has been done the past, if you read history. Presently, go to China , Cuba, or other places and you'll find abuses. The Matthew SHeppard case was sad and unexcusable, that, and how Christians have been treated have no bearing on the EMU case.
northside
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 12:24 p.m.
To follow up on what bedrog and clownfish wrote, gays face real discrimination, Christians imaginary discrimination. This case is a classic example: the "discrimination" this woman faces is not being able to discriminate against others. Her case mirrors the claims of racist business owners, pre-Civil Rights laws, who claimed they were unfairly being forced to serve groups they didn't want to associate with, like blacks.
clownfish
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 11:55 a.m.
I just don't remember Christians being denied the right to marry whom they please, or being tied to a fence post and left to die, or excluded from Boy Scouts, or denied the right to be in the military. Maybe I missed it?
The Black Stallion3
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 11:06 a.m.
Your right tdw........They just love playing victim.
bedrog
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 10:53 a.m.
tdw: except one group is totally bogus as " victims", while the other is not, whether they are liberal or not. which would jesus guess is which ?
Chip Reed
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 10:32 a.m.
Don't our elected representatives have anything better to do? My religion looks dimly on pandering demagogues...
Middle America
Thu, Jun 14, 2012 : 9:32 p.m.
Nope. They need issues like this to distract people from the real issues at hand.