University of Michigan Health System to shrink workforce as government cuts spending
Editor's note: This article has been edited to clarify the timeframe for planned workforce changes at the hospitals.
The University of Michigan Health System has plans to eventually shrink its work force in light of the possibility of billions of dollars of cuts to Medicare and Medicaid, Doug Strong, the leader of UMHS hospitals, said in a New York Times article today.
Strong spoke to The Times for an article that explored how growth in the health care industry is showing signs of slowing down.
Strong told the newspaper he feels the need to deliver care in future years with fewer people at a lower cost — even as the hospital is advertising for 560 jobs for its new children’s and women’s hospital and has expanded its emergency department.
“I think that is what the nation is asking of all of us,” he told the newspaper.
- Read the full New York Times story.
Juliana Keeping covers general assignment and health and the environment for AnnArbor.com. Reach her at julianakeeping@annarbor.com or 734-623-2528. Follow Juliana Keeping on Twitter
Comments
what is fair
Mon, Aug 22, 2011 : 1:50 a.m.
It would be ignorant of all employees of the hospital, not just nurses, to not pay attention to how well compensated the "administration" is in such times that hospitals believe they need to cut back. Cutting back doesn't mean just at the bottom. Administrators taking astounding raises, which don't even mention their bonuses, while asking others to cut is ridiculous. Perhaps if all the administrators had "cut back" then the animosity would not be so thick and nurses would likely understand. However, thick smoke lingers over the head of those with a lot of hot air. It is critical in understanding the economic times we are in to also take into perspective the arrogance the top executives have in taking incredible raises, yet still crying we have to cut budgets. They are simply liars. U of M INC as I like to refer to it is making money hand over fist and to the tune of billions of dollars. These are the increases (raises, not including bonuses) from 2008 - 2010 Ora Pescovitz CEO $700,000(2009) $721,000 Phillip Hanlon, Provost, EVP Acadmics $286,000 $470,000***wow*** Tony Denton ED/CEO UMHHC $387,000 $425,000 Doug Strong CEO UMHHC $546,000 $600,000 Timothy Slottow EVP/ CFO $472,000 $535,000 Patricia A. Warner, MPH ED, C.S. Motts $241,000 $273,000 Margaret Calarco $256,000 $264,000 Notice a nice raise, but not like above** Ph.D. RN, Chief of Nursing Services There are plenty more, and these are public information, you can find them quite easily on Michigan Daily WALK the WALK if your gonna talk the talk!! Greed!! Think about the economic times between 2008 and 2010 and look at how the executives have raped the system and for that matter, the public! Nurses are the point of care, the reason why U of M gets complimented!
Chelsea8226
Sat, Aug 20, 2011 : 11:51 p.m.
Doesn't the comments Doug Strong made in the article completely contradict the recent press release made on August 8th by the University about how U-M has saved Medicare more then $22 million? Notice this statement included below, these are the employees he will make cuts to. "Many of the programs and innovations that U-M has put in place for this project involve not only physicians but also pharmacists, nurses, social workers, care managers and others who are involved in the care of Medicare patients at all U-M facilities" <a href="http://www.uofmhealth.org/news/medicare-savings-0808" rel='nofollow'>http://www.uofmhealth.org/news/medicare-savings-0808</a>
Sparty
Sun, Aug 21, 2011 : 3:01 a.m.
The UMHS saved Medicare and Medicaid dollars but further cuts to the programs will be demanded due to austerity cuts at the federal level, and these may require staff cuts in healthcare nationally. How is this a local issue caused by Mr Strong?
BhavanaJagat
Fri, Aug 19, 2011 : 5:01 p.m.
Thank LORD, there is less money to siphon off the public funds from Medicare and Medicaid. I read in The Ann Arbor News in the past that the University Health System had admitted accounting errors and had agreed to return millions of dollars to Medicare/Medicaid. If the money is there, the Health System has more to gain and the jobs provide the smoke screen for accounting errors. If the money is not there, the Health System finds no other valid reason to keep the jobs. A few days back, we read the story about a Pharmacist that lives in Canton and the Feds believe that about 50 million dollars were taken away from Medicare and Medicaid. Our first priority should be that of defending public money. The University Health System is a part of this huge problem. The threat of eliminating jobs would not cure the disease. We must still resist this temptation to steal funds from Medicare and Medicaid.
Steve Pepple
Fri, Aug 19, 2011 : 11:13 a.m.
An off-topic comment posted overnight has been removed.
Terrin Bell
Fri, Aug 19, 2011 : 4:46 a.m.
Rob: I am a bankruptcy attorney. I see plenty of U of M nurses paycheck stubs (as well as every other profession). Nurses contribute significantly to their health care. Many of them are struggling like the rest of us are. They also have to pay for parking for the privilege of parking on the U of M's property. I can't think of any other place that makes its employees pay to park on its own property. Instead of picking on hardworking middle class workers like nurses, why not pick on the rich folks who keep getting their taxes lowered well the rest of us have to pick up the tab? To each their own, but when I am hospitalized, I want the people taking care of me to be fairly compensated and happy.
Sparty
Fri, Aug 19, 2011 : 4:40 p.m.
Do you know of any employer who pays for employees to park anywhere? Driving and parking are expenses employees must incur to get to THEIR jobs. All UM employees are paying the same benefit premiums EXCEPT the nurses who continue to resist, displaying a continuing sense of entitlement that is galling to anyone with a thought that fairness and shared sacrifice should prevail. Given the grammar and misspellings above, I sincerely doubt that you are an attorney and suspect that you are one of the misguided nurses. I too admire nurses and want them to be fairly compensated, but that doesn't mean they should be paid above market rates or receive benefits above what the market prices mandate or for less that what others at the university are paying for them.
Jack
Fri, Aug 19, 2011 : 1:16 p.m.
City and country employees pay for parking on city and county property. So do U of M employees. I can think of few places that pay for employee parking.
Terrin Bell
Fri, Aug 19, 2011 : 4:37 a.m.
Stephen Hankamp: Last I checked, Republicans 1) are publicly seeking to gut Medicaid and Medicare (hence fewer people being able to afford hospital services), and 2) are actively challenging the Health Care Act. So, I am unsure how Obama has anything to do with the potential loss of jobs. These are the same Republicans who want to do away with Social Security Retirement and put that money into individual retirement accounts. Last I checked most people with significant money in the markets, still haven't fully recovered from the 2008 crash which seems on the verge of repeating itself.
Jack
Fri, Aug 19, 2011 : 1:19 p.m.
I don't understand why people think one party or the other is going to save us. They're both pretty much the same. Obama made it pretty clear, even during his campaign, that seniors were going to be a target. The public was so addicted to his splendid rhetoric they didn't see it. Obama was gong to save them.
Sparty
Fri, Aug 19, 2011 : 4 a.m.
Well, with the nurses demanding higher wages, refusing to pay their fare share of benefit premiums which all other UM employees pay, and demanding excessive pto and other benefits, it's hardly surprising given this example. While the nurses may claim they want to retain what they have, they fail to grasp the reality of shared sacrifice that all other Americans are experiencing and that includes compromise, sacrifice, and some reductions in overly generous past compensation practices to reach current market equity for their positions. Their insistence on talking about the pay of people in other roles, building projects, and profit or loss of various units shows a lack of understanding that each job carries an economic value to a market place, and that is what employers base compensation levels on.
what is fair
Mon, Aug 22, 2011 : 1:48 a.m.
It would be ignorant of all employees of the hospital, not just nurses, to not pay attention to how well compensated the "administration" is in such times that hospitals believe they need to cut back. Cutting back doesn't mean just at the bottom. Administrators taking astounding raises, which don't even mention their bonuses, while asking others to cut is ridiculous. Perhaps if all the administrators had "cut back" then the animosity would not be so thick and nurses would likely understand. However, thick smoke lingers over the head of those with a lot of hot air. It is critical in understanding the economic times we are in to also take into perspective the arrogance the top executives have in taking incredible raises, yet still crying we have to cut budgets. They are simply liars. U of M INC as I like to refer to it is making money hand over fist and to the tune of billions of dollars. These are the increases (raises, not including bonuses) from 2008 - 2010 Ora Pescovitz CEO $700,000(2009) $721,000 Phillip Hanlon, Provost, EVP Acadmics $286,000 $470,000***wow*** Tony Denton ED/CEO UMHHC $387,000 $425,000 Doug Strong CEO UMHHC $546,000 $600,000 Timothy Slottow EVP/ CFO $472,000 $535,000 Patricia A. Warner, MPH ED, C.S. Motts $241,000 $273,000 Margaret Calarco $256,000 $264,000 Notice a nice raise, but not like above** Ph.D. RN, Chief of Nursing Services There are plenty more, and these are public information, you can find them quite easily on Michigan Daily WALK the WALK if your gonna talk the talk!! Greed!! Think about the economic times between 2008 and 2010 and look at how the executives have raped the system and for that matter, the public! Nurses are the point of care, the reason why U of M gets complimented!
5c0++ H4d13y
Fri, Aug 19, 2011 : 12:04 a.m.
Is "shrink" a direct quote of Doug Strong? From reading (novel idea) the article it says he's going to do more with less staff per patient. That does not mean the staff will shrink. It could be they are planning on the patient load increasing but growing the staff at a slower rate. Could be a net increase in jobs. I've gotten used to the sloppy work of NYT so I barely care to clarify.
David
Thu, Aug 18, 2011 : 8:14 p.m.
Clearly with the addition of a new state of the art CVC center, new Mott Children's Hospital, and a multi-million dollar expansion to the Emergency Department, the healthcare industry's growth is slowing. Nice try Mr. Strong. It's demand for help has never been greater as evidenced by hospitals that are overwhelmed by the number of people needing care and lack of physical space and staff.
John B.
Sat, Aug 20, 2011 : 1:31 a.m.
Thank you, voice of reason!
Cash
Thu, Aug 18, 2011 : 6:11 p.m.
Why is the first thought....cut employees? So how about stopping those glossy advertisements first? Act like a hospital, not McDonalds.
Mike
Thu, Aug 18, 2011 : 10:32 p.m.
What is the most expensive cost of running any business? employees. You can cut out pencils and paper but you're not going to balance your budget. All of the jobs are going overseas. Obama just appointed Jeffrey Immelt (GE CEO) to create jobs and he's moving jobs to China! <a href="http://caffertyfile.blogs.cnn.com/2011/07/27/ge-moving-x-ray-business-to-china-what-message-is-sent-to-u-s/" rel='nofollow'>http://caffertyfile.blogs.cnn.com/2011/07/27/ge-moving-x-ray-business-to-china-what-message-is-sent-to-u-s/</a> Follow the link and read for yourself. The only jobs we seem to be creating are government jobs while our politicians are in bed with foreign governments. We all fight with each other about what is going on in this country while the facts are ignored.
Marilyn Wilkie
Thu, Aug 18, 2011 : 6:07 p.m.
Something fishey here: "Strong spoke to The Times for an article that explored how growth in the health care industry is showing signs of slowing down." Just the opposite was supposed to happen as the baby boomers aged, right? Certainly the drug companies are feeling no pain and the health care industry feds them their customers.
CynicA2
Thu, Aug 18, 2011 : 7:51 p.m.
Lots of boomers stand a good chance of being worse-off than their parents in retirement, especially subsequent to the Great Recession, and all the wealth destroyed by various market collapses... and it probably ain't over yet! The first thing many struggling companies cut are health bennies for white-collar (read "non-unionized") workers. Tens of thousands of white collar auto retirees are in this boat now. Many others will follow, in other industries, as well. When all is said and done, they will have LESS health care than their predecessors. We will end-up with overcapacity in health care, and that bubble will burst, just like all the others.
Juliana Keeping
Thu, Aug 18, 2011 : 5:15 p.m.
I interviewed Doug Strong mid-morning today and we have more details to share. Keep checking back. We're about to post the new story. Thanks! -Juliana
Tom Whitaker
Sat, Aug 20, 2011 : 2:10 p.m.
Still no new story. What gives?
Tom Whitaker
Fri, Aug 19, 2011 : 4:40 p.m.
Still waiting...
TaxPayer
Thu, Aug 18, 2011 : 5:01 p.m.
Should Doug Strong be the spokesperson for shrinking the workforce when his own annual salary (2010) is listed as $600.000? The average Joe worker doesn't want to hear about losing their job from a white collar "suit".
extrememoderate
Sun, Aug 21, 2011 : 11:06 p.m.
I question a leader who wants a smaller workforce with less incentives, more parking and a new hospital, with a nice pay raise at the same time. I'm sure he has his reasons but not exactly a morale builder.
Terrin Bell
Fri, Aug 19, 2011 : 4:51 a.m.
Rob: Perhaps somebody who isn't currently engaged in trying to make the nurses pay for expensive new buildings would be better to give opinions on the topic?
Sparty
Fri, Aug 19, 2011 : 4:04 a.m.
What does his salary have to do with anything? He's the leader of one of the largest health systems in the country - who better to speak on this topic?!
Charlie Brown's Ghost
Thu, Aug 18, 2011 : 4:57 p.m.
It's so much fun watching the usual progressive apologists/fear-mongers on this one. Completely indefensible, but that doesn't stop them from trying. Like we've been saying, "If you think health care is expensive now, just wait until it's free." Welcome to one of those expenses: unemployment. Good Night and Good Grief
G. Orwell
Thu, Aug 18, 2011 : 4:49 p.m.
I don't think most of you really understand what is happening. The whole debt ceiling debate was theater. A charade to fool the public into believing there is a division between the Repubs and Dems. The fact is, both parties want to take away your benefits. That was the plan from the start. Raising the debt ceiling for the 73rd time (?) was no big deal. Yet, both sides made a huge deal of it. Once democrat senator even said it is all theater. Wake up people. Both parties are woking against the American people. "The American Left has been betrayed by Barrack Obama" Glenn Greenwald, Matt Taibi and Jonathan Cohn are absolutely right in this article - "Obama wanted this deal all along." <a href="http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/timstanley/100099563/the-american-left-has-been-betrayed-by-barack-obama/" rel='nofollow'>http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/timstanley/100099563/the-american-left-has-been-betrayed-by-barack-obama/</a>
eagleman
Fri, Aug 19, 2011 : 12:35 a.m.
Why should I believe Glenn Greenwald, Matt Taibi, and Jonathan Cohn over a Ron Paul or Mitt Romney? Both sides have their graphs, charts, and treatises telling us why the other guy is bad for the country and they are good. These people are of the chattering class--all talk, no action. Messers, Greenwald, Taibi, and Cohn have never owned a business, ran for political office, been responsible for anyone but themself..in short, they are just opinionated people who have a forum to share their half-baked theories on the how the world works. The same for Krugman. It seems all the Left has is theorists and journalists. They don't actually have anyone who has ran a business successfully nor who has been responsible for a life other than their own. The American Left is a group people who talk mcuh, but who have done little. Academic papers and New York Times best sellers are not an adequate replacement for actual experience. Where have you gone, Kennedy Democrats? Where have you gone Walter Reuther? The countrry is in the shape it is in because the children and grandchildren of the "Greatest Generation" are anything but great.
Alan Goldsmith
Thu, Aug 18, 2011 : 4:44 p.m.
"Admittedly, I do not have all the facts, but is not Mr. Strong involved in negotiations with the nursing union currently? If so, it seems to me, he is using an old tactic of threatening the employees by crying poor. Maybe this is just a tactic to scare his employees into more concessions. Hypothetical, it may be, but also possible." Bingo. This is obviously what is happening. Duh!
sweetmate
Thu, Aug 18, 2011 : 4:43 p.m.
The only business that will booming if the Republicans, who have said Medicare and Medicaid are both unconstitutional, will be cemeteries and funeral homes. Really, is this the country we live in now?
Jack
Fri, Aug 19, 2011 : 1:11 p.m.
eagleman - "Cuba actuallhy has a well regulated health care system." Have you been ther and studied it or are you getting your informatin from a very misleading movie from Michael Moore?
eagleman
Fri, Aug 19, 2011 : 12:22 a.m.
Cuba actually has a well regarded health care system. Their problem is a lack of freedom,.
Michigan Man
Thu, Aug 18, 2011 : 5:46 p.m.
Sweet - head on down to Cuba and check out their medical care system - let us know when you return.
John B.
Thu, Aug 18, 2011 : 4:27 p.m.
"Admittedly, I do not have all the facts, but is not Mr. Strong involved in negotiations with the nursing union currently? If so, it seems to me, he is using an old tactic of threatening the employees by crying poor. Maybe this is just a tactic to scare his employees into more concessions. Hypothetical, it may be, but also possible." Ding ding ding! We have a winner! 'Nuff said.
eagleman
Fri, Aug 19, 2011 : 12:21 a.m.
The nurses are threatening a strike. This the game of negotiation, folks. Both sides are doing it.
Mike
Thu, Aug 18, 2011 : 8:17 p.m.
No, it's real and will get worse under Obamacare. He has already cut Medicare and will soon rais ethe age of eligibility. And if you're too sick and not worth the money you will not get medical treatment beyond pain control. This is the new reality and the reason most Americans are against the healthcare reforem that was loded with hundreds of tax increases. But President Obama does seem like a kind and caring man. So am I.
Bogie
Thu, Aug 18, 2011 : 3:56 p.m.
From 2000 to 2008 people blamed the President for Michigan's lackluster economy. In 2009, our new President was feverishly working to get things back on track. 2010 on, it's the Governor's fault. Really? How about the fact that both political parties have made trade agreements, that has destroyed the manufacturing base of our state, and country. How about electing people (no matter the party), who will fight to restore our manufacturing base with a level playing field. Admittedly, I do not have all the facts, but is not Mr. Strong involved in negotiations with the nursing union currently? If so, it seems to me, he is using an old tactic of threatening the employees by crying poor. Maybe this is just a tactic to scare his employees into more concessions. Hypothetical, it may be, but also possible.
Stupid Hick
Fri, Aug 19, 2011 : 2:36 a.m.
"How do you rebuild our manufacturing base?" Duh, ultimately American workers have to be willing to work for wages comparable to what Chinese workers earn. That's why we need to eliminate unions, and cut government programs that do not protect the business interests of the wealthy. Are poor people going to create jobs? No! So why should government be responsive to them? Why reward losers?! The poor should be paying more taxes and working for less, in order to compete with the Chinese. Our economy is in the tank and if American workers are unwilling to share in the sacrifice, companies will hire workers in China! The solution is simple: eliminate unions to weaken labor, eliminate social programs to make people willing to work for less, and collect more taxes from the poor so that we can afford tax cuts for the wealthy, who actually create jobs! I could write more on this topic, but I'm thirsty for another cup of tea. Maybe later.
eagleman
Fri, Aug 19, 2011 : 12:20 a.m.
How do you rebuild our manufacturing base? Force American companies to move back here?? Place tariffs on imported goods? Speaking in generalities is a useless activity. How about some ideas? Has not the MNA threatened a strike? It seems to me that both sides are using scare tactics.
Tom Whitaker
Thu, Aug 18, 2011 : 3:53 p.m.
Since the medical center workforce will shrink, there should be no need for a new parking structure for hospital employees in Fuller Park, right? Also, why is annarbor.com is getting its local stories from the New York Times?
Charlie Brown's Ghost
Thu, Aug 18, 2011 : 5 p.m.
Good question, Tom, especially since one of the things that helped the Ann Arbor News drive into the ground was simply reprinting opinion pieces from the New York Times, the L. A. Times, the Boston Globe and the Miami Herald. Good Night and Good Grief
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Thu, Aug 18, 2011 : 4:02 p.m.
It's not a local story, per se. The NYT article is a national one about the impact of cuts in M and M to the health care industry. Its reporter understandably sought out the U of M as an example of what might happen. Good Night and Good Luck
xmo
Thu, Aug 18, 2011 : 3:46 p.m.
From the NYT article: Joshua Shapiro, chief United States economist at MFR Inc. "I think the path that we're on now is clearly unsustainable"
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Fri, Aug 19, 2011 : 2:40 a.m.
OK, for some truly bizarre reason, my first reply to Mr. Hannekamp got deleted. So I'll try again. Nope. Not even close. I am a retired member of the most socialist institution in the United States of America: the US military (specifically, retired as a lieutenant colonel after 25 years' service in the US Army). But nice try! Good Night and Good Luck
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Fri, Aug 19, 2011 : 2:23 a.m.
BTW, Mr Hannenkamp: Read BasicBob's post above. What he describes is EXACTLY what is happening. We are already paying for the uninsured. Except it is worse than BB suggests. Because they are uninsured, the uninsured frequently do not seek medical treatment until there is a crisis or a near-crisis, and then they go to the most expensive care possible--the ER. And we pay for that, as BB pointed out above. For the life of me I do not understand why anyone is satisfied with that so-called *system*. Good Night and Good Luck
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Fri, Aug 19, 2011 : 2:18 a.m.
Stephen Hannekamp: Your guess is wrong. I am a retired member of the most socialist institution in the United States of America: the United States military (specifically, retired from the US Army after 25 years' service as a lieutenant colonel). But you were close. Not. Good Night and Good Luck
Michigan Man
Fri, Aug 19, 2011 : 1:44 a.m.
Glad Ghost in not running our healthcare system. My guess is that Ghost is a recipient of an early Obama Affordable Care Act waiver - thus his confusion how healthcare really works.
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Fri, Aug 19, 2011 : 1:31 a.m.
Ladies: One of the biggest profit-maker in the healthcare industry is the insurance companies. They make huge profits by, among other means, denying health care to their policy holders. Eliminate insurance companies and move to a single-payer system, and a large part of the rise in medical costs will disappear. It's that simple. But don't worry, girls. Something that logical will never pass muster with the Republican Tea Party. Good Night and Good Luck
Basic Bob
Fri, Aug 19, 2011 : 12:53 a.m.
@eagleman, The "30 million people" are already in the health system. They are just on a pay-as-you-go or pay-as-you-don't basis. Everyone else absorbs the costs, and you can believe that is not the hospital employees. Nor is it tax write-offs. The cost of health care for the uninsured is passed on to the insurance companies, who in turn add their costs and profit margin and pass it along to the paying customers. On paper, encouraging more people to join the system reduces the cost for everyone else. The problem is that the uninsured have no motivation to pay for something that is free, even if they have somewhat less access than the insured.
eagleman
Fri, Aug 19, 2011 : 12:16 a.m.
Edward, those nations with nationalized health care ALREADY ration health care. Due to the large amount of people the system has to serve they have to place restrictions.Nationalized health care systems also they have long waiting periods.= and they too are battling rising costs.(although not as high as ours.) You also are not accounting for the issue of adding 30 million people to an already stressed health care system that is short of nurses and doctors. I understand what Obama is trying to do, but this issue is a complex one. Btw, part of the costs is the wages of employees like nurses. Are you in favor of placing restrictions on what nurses can make?
andys
Thu, Aug 18, 2011 : 9:02 p.m.
Let's take the profit out of being a doctor. I say enslave all the healthcare providers and make them work for us for free. That would solve everything! Just how do we get people to become doctors in the future under such a system? More kinks, this is difficult stuff.
Mike
Thu, Aug 18, 2011 : 8:13 p.m.
at Murrow - hospitals generally are non-profit organizations. Would you, as a health care supplier, manufacture your goods for no profit? Profit is what drives individuals to do great things and make lots of money so people like you can whine about them and how rich they are. "It's not fair", "raise taxes on the rich". I'm not rich by any measure but I've worked hard and appreciate that I have the opportunity to make more by working hard; something I would refuse to do if tax rates get too high.
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Thu, Aug 18, 2011 : 4 p.m.
So the question is how to change course. The US, by far and away, has the highest per capita spending on medical care of any nation in the world. Source: <a href="http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0934556.html" rel='nofollow'>http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0934556.html</a> That level of spending, which is constantly increasing, is what is unsustainable. The question, then, is how to reduce health care costs. Making health care less available than it is now by rationing through cost--which is what will happen if cuts to M and M--might work. But I doubt most Americans will stand for it when it happens. So we need to find another solution. So let me propose a radical idea: eliminate the profit motive from health care. Gasp!!! Good Night and Good Luck
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Thu, Aug 18, 2011 : 3:23 p.m.
This will surely help the local and state economies. Tea Party fairy tales insist it will!! After all, those aren't real jobs. They're just gubbiment jobs. This on top of the fact that Michigan's unemployment rate went up .4% last month and is now higher than it was when the governor took office. Source: <a href="http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2011108180457" rel='nofollow'>http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2011108180457</a> (note: This is old news that A2.com is yet to post. Must be that the governor objects to the news getting out). So how's that tax cutting working out for ya? Good Night and Good Luck
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Fri, Aug 19, 2011 : 1:26 a.m.
@eagleman: Yeah, the investors at Boeing, at General Dynamics, at Newport News Shipyards, at Grumman-Northrup, at Martin Aerospace, et. al., have not gained any wealth whatsoever from taxpayer dollars. Look out. Your lockstep ideology has gotten in the way of reality. Good Night and Good Luck
eagleman
Fri, Aug 19, 2011 : 12:10 a.m.
Edward, those jobs you mention are funded by what? Taxes! And from whom? The wealthy, who pay 50 percent of all tax. What you fail to grasp is that government receives its funding from the people who in turn receive their money from their job.For most Americans that is a business. Government is not a generator of wealth. It can assist in the generation of wealth by maintaining infrastructure, providing good schools, and funding projects that benefit the nation as a whole(the internet for example). But it never is the original source of funds. Mr. Briegel, so RAISING taxes on those most likely to create jobs is the key to job creation? Here is a tip for you: less money means less capital to spend on hiring new workers. If you want to encourage job growth you must the environment conducive for that. I won't say that the Republicans plan is the way to go, but it does make sense that reducing costs for business is a logical step in the process of creating that business-friendly environment.
5c0++ H4d13y
Fri, Aug 19, 2011 : midnight
Now I know the sound of one hand clapping.
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Thu, Aug 18, 2011 : 10:01 p.m.
andys: 1) Time to look up the definition of "reductio ad absurdum argument" 2) Are you just as concerned about all of the jobs, civilian and military, funded by your tax dollars? Are those "real" jobs"? Good Night and Good Luck
andys
Thu, Aug 18, 2011 : 8:56 p.m.
Give a guy a govt job, then tax him 100%, then use that tax to hire the next guy, and so on, we'll all have jobs but no money, then we'll go on food stamps, and get govt housing .... hmmm ... well I'm still working out the kinks, I'll have to get back to you, but I know the govt is the answer somehow.
Mike
Thu, Aug 18, 2011 : 8:08 p.m.
More government jobs is the answer? Who's paying for them? That kind of thinking is unsustainable because you can't collect enough taxes from every man, woman, and child to make it work.
David Briegel
Thu, Aug 18, 2011 : 3:34 p.m.
Terrence, really, that's all ya got? How about those job killing Bush tax cuts? We're still down about 7 million jobs and all you want is more tax cuts? Nothing else?
Terrence Brennan
Thu, Aug 18, 2011 : 3:26 p.m.
I'm guessing the terrible state of the country's economy is Bush's fault though? You dudes can't have it both ways.
fjord
Thu, Aug 18, 2011 : 3:21 p.m.
FYI, the link to the NYT story lands on page 2 of 2.
Juliana Keeping
Thu, Aug 18, 2011 : 5:16 p.m.
We have fixed that. Thanks.
Michigan Man
Thu, Aug 18, 2011 : 3:21 p.m.
Wait a minute! I thought the Obama Affordable Care Act was going to strengthen the provision of medical/health care. Did I miss the part where activation of the Obama Affordable Care Act would result in fewer healthcare jobs?
Jack
Fri, Aug 19, 2011 : 1:24 p.m.
To ERMG - No, he was not paying attention to all the others you wish to blame. He was paying attention to Obama. Obama has made it quite clear, at least to me and many others, that Medicare and Social Security were going to be reduced. No that he is in the process of doing it, many scream that it's the Republicans and the Tea Party. No, it's the Democrats. Do they not control our Congress and have done so for a while? There is very little difference between the parties when all is said and done. The Democrats scream and yell but then go right along with the cuts.
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Fri, Aug 19, 2011 : 2:10 a.m.
Gotta love the way conservatives, after cutting taxes AND spending money like drunken sailors, are shocked, SHOCKED that there is a debt/deficit problem. And especially hilarious is the way they blame it on "lefties". Simply ending the Bush tax cuts, and taking us back to the bad old days of the Clinton era (you remember, balanced budget and long-term economic growth) would go a long way toward solving the budget problem. As for this problem being caused by "lefties", I suggest you take a look at the budgetary destruction wrought by Reagan and the presidents Bush. I then suggest you read David Stockman, head of Reagan's OMB and former Republican member of the House of Representatives from Michigan, as to the reason for purposely running up huge deficits. Or you could just look at Grover Norquist's take on it. Both Norquist and Stockman are refreshingly honest about the causes of the debt problem and why Republicans created it. Good Night and Good Luck
eagleman
Fri, Aug 19, 2011 : 12:01 a.m.
Well, Edward, that applies as much to you as the previous poster. You cannot keep borrowing money. At some point the bill comes due. You would have the country to continue use the charge card despite the fact that they are over the limit. I am no fan of the Tea Party, but the Left's blaise attitude to mounting debt is astounding. We have to get costs under control. Simply raising taxes is not sufficient. It has to be cuts AND taxes.
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Thu, Aug 18, 2011 : 3:27 p.m.
You, apparently, were not paying attention to 1) The Ryan Plan, 2) the so-called debt ceiling crisis and the cuts to M/M that were being proposed by the Tea Party 3) Republican efforts to dismantle and defund the Affordable Health Care Act, and 4) the ideologies of the 6 Republican members of the so-called Super Congress. Nope. Simplistic rants are far better than actually understanding the dynamics of the issue. Good Night and Good Luck