Campus concealed weapons bills debated at Eastern Michigan University panel discussion
While making his case for allowing concealed weapons on college campuses, David Coy noted that people with permits have to take classes in the use of firearms.
The point did little to convince at least one student in the audience of about 100 at Eastern Michigan University Thursday.
Julian Lizzio, a University of Michigan senior, attending a picnic last fall said he does not carry his gun to school, but thinks his group would win if he challenged the university on its weapons ban.
File photo
The moment was one of several emotional flares in a panel discussion between proponents and opponents of two bills state lawmakers are considering that would allow students to carry concealed weapons on Michigan’s campuses.
After expressing his regrets for her loss, Coy, an Adrian College accounting professor and volunteer on the National Rifle Association’s Board of Directors, responded: “Bad things are going to happen, but the preponderance of evidence and the preponderance of incidents suggest that concealed firearms are a deterrent,” he said.Â
Coy and Paul Leighton, a criminology professor at EMU who opposes the bills, both conceded there were no hard statistics to demonstrate that concealed weapons prevent or promote violence.
When asked point blank how many crimes the roughly 200,000 people with CCW permits in Michigan stopped with their concealed weapons, Coy said the Michigan State Police have no statistics.
Leighton had a similar response when a student pointed out there was no evidence concealed weapons are a source of problems.
“We have an awful lot of problems figuring out the effects as clearly and convincingly as we would like,” he said.
James Simakas, an EMU student, said he had researched the issue and had no problems with concealed firearms on campus.
“Nobody can really establish a harm or benefit, so, given that, what is the harm of having a concealed firearm?” he asked. “I’d like to know why my rights stop at the edge of a campus.”
Introduction of the legislation stems from an incident in which a man brought a gun onto campus and was informed by police that it was against the law.
Under current laws, universities can ban firearms on campus.
Michigan House Bill 5474 strips universities of that right, while Michigan Senate Bill 0747 would lift the ban on guns in a dormitory or university classroom.
The University of Michigan and EMU both have campus-wide regent’s ordinances banning guns.
Leighton said allowing weapons on campus could become an unnecessary distraction in the classroom.
“It’s a basic public safety issue,” he said. “I would say there’s a real concern about how it affects the basic educational environment. When you go to a professor you probably don’t want that professor to have a concealed firearm.”
Panel member Reid Smith, a member of Students for Concealed Carry on Campus, countered that allowing concealed firearms on campus makes students safer. “When it comes down to it, you can respond to a crime being committed ... yourself faster than the police can,” he said. “That’s the basis for our support of these laws.” He called the current arrangement in which universities can ban firearms a loophole in the law allowing the public to carry concealed weapons.Â
Leighton argued that it wasn’t a loophole, but a common sense exception. He said churches, casinos, hospitals, stadiums also have similar authority to ban guns.
“I think those are rational exceptions that consider public safety,” he said.Â
Greg O’Dell, EMU police chief, raised concerns about the impact guns on campus might have on the suicide rate on campus.
He also said that the campus sees a high number of break-ins in its residence halls, and worried about the upshot of adding guns to the mix. “What happens when the target of the theft changes from a laptop to a 9mm?” he said.
Debate also arose on how people would handle themselves in a situation similar to that of the Virginia Tech shootings.
Several audience members questioned whether people advocating for concealed weapons permits truly understand the significance of shooting a human being.Â
“I’m a combat vet with the 82nd Airborne, and it’s a whole different thing to use a gun on a person than to use it on pop up targets - it’s a whole different situation,” EMU student Steven Stenman said.
Coy responded that a CCW permit is not for everyone but said sufficient training is provided to those seeking one.
“You need to make that decision - are you willing to take a human life?” he said. “Training is provided. We do the best we can in that regard. Take away this tool, and you are detracting from pubic safety."
Comments
Joe
Sat, Nov 21, 2009 : 7:46 p.m.
im sorry i meant andy not dading
Joe
Sat, Nov 21, 2009 : 6:24 p.m.
dading.. why do you generalize us "college kids" like that. i have had extensive firearms training per the cpl law and i have further taken many classes from nra certified instructors and private instructors on many different scenarios and tactics for my job in the armed security field/self defense scenarios. please back up your statistics with real information. i am only 21 years old but i am sure i have more experience in weapons training than you. dont steriotype us as being involved in drunkin rave parties from friday to sunday. no i do not live in fear but i am prepared for what probibly wont happen, but for what might happen. ty please further this discussion in a civil matter
Joe
Fri, Nov 20, 2009 : 7:40 p.m.
"Leighton said allowing weapons on campus could become an unnecessary distraction in the classroom." how is it a distraction? the great thing about concealed carry is that its concealed... when i carry my glock, even with a tee-shirt, i have never to my knowledge been seen with it on. when i carry absolutly nobody knows i have it, so how could it distract anyone? i carry everywhere else i cn legally carry, and it dosnt distract anyone. remember laws were created to punish people not to protect people
Ricebrnr
Fri, Nov 20, 2009 : 5:50 p.m.
Exactly! See how the campus ban worked out so well for them? Thank you for that perfect example.
LGChelsea
Fri, Nov 20, 2009 : 5:21 p.m.
See Colin Goddard's video on YouTube. He is a Virginia Tech survivor.
Ricebrnr
Fri, Nov 20, 2009 : 3:24 p.m.
Oh I think it needs to be stated: Thank you Mr. Perkins and Ms. Keeping for your equal and refreshingly unbiased reporting on this issue. Many in the gun culture feel jaded and ostracized by the media due to the incessant parroting of Violence Policy Center/Brady Campaign rhetoric without any actual research and opposing views. I very much appreciate that your reporting offers only the accounts of events and not biases or inaccurate information. Again thanks.
Ricebrnr
Fri, Nov 20, 2009 : 3:17 p.m.
Cowardly, living in fear? REALLY? Let's ponder this a moment. If you own a fire extinguisher, use a seat belt, have smoke alarms, carry insurance, get vaccinations, etc etc etc, are you living in fear? Are you cowardly? REALLY? No all of those things are prudent preparations for unlikely but significant events. Many would consider those that don't do any of those things to have their heads in the sand. Just look at the hue and outcry over mammogram usage at age 50 instead of age 40. Statistics indicate that if is more likely to be of no use or detrimental prior to 50 BUT how many women are outraged over the possiblity that this ounce of prevention may be denied to them? Finally all I have to say is why have no (legal) gun zones, why not just have No Crime Zones? Lets see how that works out....
Atticus F.
Fri, Nov 20, 2009 : 1:10 p.m.
I'm a gun owner, and I would rather see concealed weapon being carried by a person who has had a background check/permit, than to see concealed weapons being carried by criminals. But, I do believe that any owner of private property should have the right to ban concealed weapons from their establishments.
dading dont delete me bro
Fri, Nov 20, 2009 : 12:13 p.m.
@mikey2u, hunh?!?! here's a quote for you, "better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6" atleast my family would be able to visit me and not a stone.
Mikey2u
Fri, Nov 20, 2009 : 12:07 p.m.
I feel bad for all the cowardly people that need to carry a gun in order to get on with their daily lives. It must be terrible to live in a constant state of fear. Whats the old expression? A coward dies a thousand deaths, a brave man only once.
Eric64
Fri, Nov 20, 2009 : 11:46 a.m.
John Galt. Thank you I agree 100 percent.
John Galt
Fri, Nov 20, 2009 : 11:42 a.m.
We need no justification to excercise our rights. There should be no "debate." If it makes others "uncomfortable," too bad.
Mikey2u
Fri, Nov 20, 2009 : 11:36 a.m.
Too many guns are stolen from irresponsible gun owners. If a handgun is lost or stolen the owner should get a mandatory 5 year prison sentence. If they agree to these rules then let them carry.
dading dont delete me bro
Fri, Nov 20, 2009 : 11:35 a.m.
@djm12652, i understand it's legal to lock them and transport regulations, but from what i understand from the emu ordinance ANYWHERE on emu campus is a violation of that. ANYWHERE includes locked up in a vehicle. let me know your thought on this, i am definitely interested in your interpretation (seriously, not looking to knock you)
Basic Bob
Fri, Nov 20, 2009 : 11:29 a.m.
Two questions.... What is different about restricting people from carrying handguns in a high school building and a college classroom? How is the law currently applied to a vehicle in the parking lot of a high school or college?
djm12652
Fri, Nov 20, 2009 : 11:21 a.m.
dading...since when is it not legal to lock a legally registered firearm in a vehicle? If one does not have a carry permit, the Federal Firearms regulations specify certain requirements when transporting firearms but what is the law regarding those with a carry permit with a weapon in their vehicle? As a former Federal Firearms Licensee, I'd be interested in what law you refer to.
AndyYpsilanti
Fri, Nov 20, 2009 : 11:06 a.m.
This is a great idea. Because college kids are known for making the best decisions. Binge drinking, drug and sexual experimentation, exposure to new, life changing ideas, and now we add fire arms. Well, we needed to get the state school budget in line somehow, didn't we? Seriously, I am all for gun rights. I have no problem with people owning and legally carrying and using guns. But exclusion zones are created for a reason. Ever notice how the places that are excluded tend to have large groups of people that may be in contentious/stressful situations and/or alcohol involved? And the best amateur marksman is still not a trained first responder who has been taught how to react to stressful and dangerous situations. Please. Own guns. Carry guns. But a college campus is not a suitable place to do so.
dading dont delete me bro
Fri, Nov 20, 2009 : 10:44 a.m.
zactly, you pull your weapon, be prepared to use it. there will be consequenses when you pull it and don't use it. you can be nailed for 'brandishing'. dormatory break-ins and theft of property IS NOT a valid reason to protect oneself. let the property go. however, if someone's in the middle of theiving property and is armed, then it is. i'm a student, i take evening classes. i'm on and i'm off, i don't live there in the dorms or near campus. i see absolutely no reason i couldn't carry. IF i had to run to campus for something, would it be safe locking my weapon in the car (not totally legal) or carrying it and knowing my vehicle wouldn't be broken into and there's another weapon on the 'streets' or 'campus'? i'd rather know it's safe on me where i have control of it. it's amazing how many 'carry free' zones are carried in. just let me say, if you don't have a wardrobe malfunction, NOBODY knows what's hidden in someone's waistband. how about that?
Eric64
Fri, Nov 20, 2009 : 10:43 a.m.
I hope it passes.
djm12652
Fri, Nov 20, 2009 : 10:21 a.m.
Hmmm...the University can ban a legally carried firearm, but give a wink and nod then slap on the wrist for underage drinking...isn't this backwards? Stop someone from NOT breaking the law but tolerate people breaking the law...ah..the arrogance of the highly educated!