Plans move forward for roundabout at State and Ellsworth near Costco site
A roundabout at State and Ellsworth roads took another step forward Tuesday afternoon when the Washtenaw County Road Commission approved a $25,000 contract for its preliminary engineering.
Currently, there is a traffic light at the intersection, which is located at the border of Ann Arbor and Pittsfield Township, and is close to the site for a new Costco.
The Road Commission and Ann Arbor applied for and received “Congestion Mitigation/Air Quality” funds for construction of the roundabout, and Costco has agreed to pay for the design and construction costs for the roundabout, which is expected to be constructed in 2013.
DLZ Michigan, Inc. will assist the Road Commission in the “geometric design” of the roundabout and was awarded a contract up to $25,000 for the work.
The roundabout is under consideration “due to the large traffic volumes, (and) long delays (that) occur regularly during peak travel periods,” according to Road Commission information.
With the addition of the large retail store and increased traffic, those delays are expected to increase.
Lisa Allmendinger is a regional reporter for AnnArbor.com. She can be reached at lisaallmendinger@annarbor.com.
Comments
grimmk
Fri, Oct 7, 2011 : 4:05 a.m.
It's not such a hard concept. But I'm baffled by now many near misses I've either witnessed or been in. I go through many of them, US-23/Geddess, Geddes/Superior, Nixon/Huron Parkway. I almost got t-boned by a Dominos driver, a lady almost got rear ended and caused much confusion when she stopped IN the roundabout to let people in. IT IS NOT A STOP SIGN! Or people switching lanes because they don't know how to read the signs. I love them. I just hope people are starting to get the idea on how to use them. I might be wrong, but I thought the point of them was to NOT use your turn signals. You aren't changing lanes you are simply merging into another one. If there are two lanes IN the roundabout, that's another issue. But if I am going to take 23 south off the the Geddess one, why do I need to use my turn signal?
Jon Saalberg
Thu, Oct 6, 2011 : 5:28 p.m.
Here is a link to a video that very clearly explains how a roundabout works - barely three minutes and you're an expert: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=AjM5smTc0fg" rel='nofollow'>http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=AjM5smTc0fg</a>
Jon Saalberg
Thu, Oct 6, 2011 : 5:23 p.m.
It's unfortunate that people do not take the time to learn about roundabouts - they have been proven, in study after study, to be MUCH safer than conventionally-signaled, 90 degree intersections. Traffic flows around the circle without stopping, saving gas and time; traffic collisions, if they occur, are at a much lower speed and a much lower angle, thus lessening both possible damage and injuries. The real problem is learning something new - the old way is definitely not the best way. For those of you who do not know how to drive through a roundabout, a very easy solution is to go to YouTube and do a search for "how to drive through a roundabout", then watch any of the many videos that are available.
4mytown
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 6:43 p.m.
I am happy to see the roundabout, never had any problems with them. I just hope they do some very nice landscaping - it will be an introduction and gateway to Pittsfield Township and we will miss an important opportunity for some beauty if we do not spend some time and money to make it inviting. Look at the waterfall retention pond in front of KINKOs on State Street or the beautiful flower garden in front of McMullen's Eisenhower Commerce Center business park. Public art is one thing, but nice landscaping brings nature a little closer to us and can relieve some stress.
aamom
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 7:23 p.m.
I do agree with you about the landscaping. If it has to be there, it might as well be nice to look at!
aamom
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 5 p.m.
Tom Teague's you tube video link is informative on how to use the roundabout. However, I couldn't help but notice that none of the videos of real roundabouts or the simulated roundabouts had much traffic. I don't mind a roundabout in the least when there is light traffic. In those situations I agree that it improves everyone's wait time. But in heavy congestion like Ellsworth and State, I think it is a bad idea. I have lived in that area a while now and can't remember a serious accident at this intersection so I don't get why we need to put one in for safety's sake. I would completely get it if this intersection had a history of serious accidents/fatalities. I'm sure if we drove everywhere at 25mph we would probably see fewer fatalities. I guess we all have our own level of risk aversion. I'm willing to take the the extremely infrequent serious accident that may occur, over the minor accidents that will occur all the time.
smarte17
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 8:47 p.m.
"I'm willing to take the the extremely infrequent serious accident that may occur, over the minor accidents that will occur all the time." So you'd rather see a major crash with a potential fatality once in a great while than tens of minor incidents where there are likely no injuries but only cosmetic damage to the vehicles? Yikes! I don't particularly like roundabouts either and agree with your point about their usefulness in light traffic situations, but I'm not willing to fight one way or the other on this one. Hopefully the people making these decisions know what they're doing.
Scott Batson
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 4:38 p.m.
Many people confuse older styles of circular intersections with modern roundabouts. Rotaries are not modern roundabouts. Traffic circles (Arc D'Triumph) are not modern roundabouts. European Vacation was not a modern roundabout. New Jersey/Europe are not removing modern roundabouts. Visit <a href="http://www.ksu.edu" rel='nofollow'>www.ksu.edu</a> to see the differences. <a href="http://www.fhwa.dot.gov" rel='nofollow'>www.fhwa.dot.gov</a> has a video about modern roundabouts that is mostly accurate (<a href="http://tinyurl.com/3hjrqus" rel='nofollow'>http://tinyurl.com/3hjrqus</a> ). Modern roundabout design is like any other intersection design. You count the vehicles entering, you count the mix (percent of trucks versus other sizes), and you count the directions they move (thru/left/right). From this information you determine the number of lanes needed for each movement. If there is a heavier movement in one direction, you add lanes in that direction. It doesn't matter what type of control is being considered. Modern roundabouts are just safer, due to the reduced speeds involved. iihs.org has safety facts.
Gramma
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 5:57 p.m.
Do they take pedestrian traffic into account?
alarictoo
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 4:13 p.m.
That intersection has historically had a higher than average occurrence of accidents. I can't imagine that adding a traffic circle there is going to improve matters. Just out of curiosity, I'm wondering how many people who have recently taken drivers' tests have been required to drive through one of these traffic circles. Also, has the state added any questions to the written tests that cover traffic circles? Because, quite frankly, I still happen across quite a few drivers who seem completely mystified by them when I am navigating traffic circles around town.
Basic Bob
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 7:20 p.m.
"completely mystified" - Yes, especially people who don't know they are called roundabouts.
Thinking over here
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 3:49 p.m.
1. could you hot-link the Road Commission in the article, so people can go there to give feedback> 2. Is the size of this roundabout known yet? I'd like to compare to an existing one for size. 3. Is there a study (somewhere online) done on THIS intersection to show that the size of the roudabout planned is going to be effective? Thanks.
Arieswoman
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 3:29 p.m.
I absolutely hate the roundabout at Lee Rd in Brighton. Maybe as others have suggested I need some education on it. At any rate it is almost impossible at times to get into the Senior Center at State/Ellsworth as the driveway is so close to the light! This senior center has a lot of traffic in and out. Maybe the powers to be will give lessons to the seniors? LOL
Liam
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 2:46 p.m.
Why is everybody so nervous of roundabouts? I don't understand. They couldn't be more simple - the only thing you have to remember is to yield to traffic already circulating. The rest is common sense - you don't need special training or anything. And to all these people saying they're dangerous (despite the solid statistics which prove otherwise....) how do you figure that? Firstly, you don't have to worry about people running the stop sign / signal and t-boning you at 40mph+, you don't have to worry about traffic coming the other way when you're turning left, and everybody is traveling slowly. Accidents at roundabouts are nearly always minor side-to-side clashes when some idiot decides to switch lane while going around. Secondly, this nonsense about roads being too busy for a roundabout. What??? You do realize the engineers KNOW how much traffic goes through there at peak times, right? They design the roundabout with the amount of traffic in mind. They don't just draw a circle on the road and hope for the best :) I live near 3 roundabouts and they're awesome - never had a problem, never seen an accident.
RRinAA
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 4:42 p.m.
Nonsense? Have you ever tried to drive through a roundabout at peak traffic times? Like the one south of M14 near Skyline? Someone else mentioned Lee Road - I made the mistake of getting off there once to find a bathroom - never again! Granted education will help, eventually, but how many years do we have to wait for that to happen? In my opinion, roundabouts work great as Stop sign replacements; if there's already a light at the intersection, it's a whole 'nother story.
Rusnak
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 1:48 p.m.
It's not a Rubic's Cube people. Yield to the oncoming traffic and merge in, and don't stop in bewilderment like thing is a mystery.
grimmk
Fri, Oct 7, 2011 : 3:57 a.m.
Or worse, stop IN the roundabout to let people in. That scares me every time.
A2transplant
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 1:37 p.m.
It's not that difficult. Just remember: It's not a race... Yield to the left... Merge with caution.
cubicle
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 1:06 p.m.
I'm not sure there is enough room to list all of my concerns about this. 1. Is there even enough space to create a viable solution? That oil change place sits pretty close to the road and the gas station just finished its remodel which is light-years away from where it used to be. 2. Nobody's dying to go to Costco at 8am. I'm more concerned with traffic trying to go to Tim Hortons if it ends up in the old Enzos. Instead of southbound traffic trying to make a left across State, people will go around the world in the roundabout to make an easier right. I guess they'd come out on Ellsworth and use it again to continue on State? 3. Would this do anything to alleviate the east of State eastbound Ellsworth traffic that regularly backs up from the stop lights farther down the road? If not, we're looking at complete gridlock. 4. Please don't let someone from Washtenaw County design this thing. Michigan State's campus has a number of traffic circles/roundabout whatevers and not once did I have a problem figuring them out. I have yet to see one in Washtenaw County that doesn't require some sort of advanced degree just to get past the associated signage.
say it plain
Thu, Oct 6, 2011 : 5:33 p.m.
That's a good point about MSU--and I agree that the ones here don't seem well designed and the signage is absolutely destructive!
RRinAA
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 4:50 p.m.
Heaven help us if Ann Arbor designs does the design - we'll probably end up with "Only in Ann Arbor mandatory stop crosswalks" built into the design! :)
grye
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 1:05 p.m.
The intersection that needs a roundabout the most is Nixon/Green/DuVarheen. This is the worst designed intersection since the cross streets don't line up. Please put a roundabout at this intersection!!
say it plain
Thu, Oct 6, 2011 : 5:31 p.m.
*good point*! I was just at that intersection and had no idea how it was supposed to work! Doubt that it would be high on any list of projects though...
Fatkitty
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 1:04 p.m.
Well now, won't this be interesting? I wonder how many morons will attempt to navigate the roundabout single-handed, i.e. one hand on the wheel and the other holding the cellphone?
hermhawk
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 12:57 p.m.
I am concerned about roundabouts. They are confusing and motorists who are not educated in dealing with roundabouts are accidents waiting to happen. A better option would be to allow left turns at the end of the traffic light cycle with the caution light on while the regular lights are green so turns can be made when traffic clears, instead of the tradition rigid left turns allow only at the beginning of the cycle. Currently that option is available in Washtenaw County only at Michigan Avenue and Carpenter Road.
RRinAA
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 12:46 p.m.
We need to force traffic engineers to actually drive the intersections they "design." They can't even get the timing of standard traffic lights correct for the traffic - some lights allow one or two cars through and leave 8-10 cars sitting at the light. It's no wonder so many people ignore the yellow and early red lights. And traffic engineers surely have never driven the traffic circles by Skyline Highschool in the mornings. The eastbound entrance ramp almost completely fills with cars backed up to Miller at times. I agree they are great in low traffic situations, but with large traffic volumes, properly timed, smart traffic lights, along with the proper lane configuration. Ah, but logic never seems to prevail in road design. Rather than have drivers merge on State and south of Ellsworth, they just mark the right lane as "right turn only," forcing traffic to back up as people suddenly find they are in the "wrong" lane or traffic does not allow a last minute lane shift. But I'm sure that's what the "books" call for, situational logic and intelligence be damned. I understand the eduction issue, but I think it's an unrealistic expectation that is going to take way too long to have an impact. How long have the Skyline roundabouts been there, and there are still backups, accidents, and light poles on the ground? I will avoid Ellsworth and State when a circle is put there, simply because it will be much, much fast to travel a different route during the morning rush. Maybe that's the intended benefit of the traffic circles, to push cars to more drivable roads?
Matt Darby
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 12:31 p.m.
I love roundabouts. I just wish more people knew how to drive in them... and knew to signal when exiting the roundabout!
Gramma
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 11:36 a.m.
There is a bus stop at that corner. The Pittsfield Township Senior Center is on that corner. Many older adults take the bus and walk across that intersection to get to the Center. Will there be any accomodations made for foot traffic? How well do buses navigate those traffic circles? The 18 wheelers that bring merchandise to Costco will likely get off on State then have to pass through this roundabout. Possibly they'll be rerouted through more residential areas to avoid use of the roundabout. I believe there is a gas station at that corner. How will that work into this plan? Of concern to me is that all this is being done to make it more convenient to get car traffic to and from a large corporate store that will take business from smaller businesses in the area. The corporations plan their future quite well. Are we planning ours as well?
alarictoo
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 4:20 p.m.
Don't worry... They will probably add one of the new "psychic" cross walks into the roundabout. After all, this IS Ann Arbor.
sellers
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 12:30 p.m.
Good questions, let's hope they have taken that into account.
Charlie Brown's Ghost
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 11:32 a.m.
"The Road Commission and Ann Arbor applied for and received "Congestion Mitigation/Air Quality" funds for construction of the roundabout" This is all you need to know. Roudabouts are not about traffic control, they are about reducing idling.
djacks24
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 2:03 p.m.
Lets commit to a useless project to get federal funding..
Gramma
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 11:38 a.m.
How well do they do that on a major intersection like this? This will add to the joy of football Saturdays.
craigjjs
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 11:14 a.m.
I lived in England for a time and it was a bit intimidating getting used to the roundabouts, but I quickly came to realize how efficient and convenient they are. There are problems with them here. Since many people are not familiar with them, many signs are posted trying to direct people using the roundabouts. This sign fatigue creates a lot of confusion. Roundabouts here do not seem to have consistent numbers of lanes or well-understood rules for using the lanes. Last. we don't use our turn signals here. The key to using roundabouts safely in England is the use of turn signals so people know when they can safely enter the roundabout. IMHO they should either make a major commitment to roundabouts and the necessary commitment to education or just stick with the lights.
say it plain
Thu, Oct 6, 2011 : 5:28 p.m.
I totally agree about the signage! They need to stop confusing people and use signs minimally and stop with the lane-marker directives (this lane for that way and this way, the other lane for yon way and hither way, etc)...people need to just *see* that this is a circle with feeds *off*, and know which way they are exit, and know that if they can't decide they need to keep on circling til they do. So, they should be bigger than the ones near Skyline I think, and more effectively signed, and have better 'feeding angles' too... We do everything piecemeal-y, so it's unclear to me what a "major commitment" would look like, unfortunately!
A2comments
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 11:02 a.m.
The amount of drivers that are "afraid" of roundabouts is truly frightening and says a lot about the quality of drivers on our roads and their ability to safely figure out situations they come across. Truly frightening.
alarictoo
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 4:22 p.m.
@Fatkitty - Hear, hear! You nailed it.
Fatkitty
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 1:07 p.m.
I'm not afraid of the roundabout. I'm afraid of the other drivers who are afraid of the roundabout, and don't have enough sense to use the standard signaling equipment that their luxury sedans are equipped with.
Basic Bob
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 9:21 a.m.
Great, another news story turns into a referendum on roundabouts.
say it plain
Thu, Oct 6, 2011 : 5:20 p.m.
yeah, funny how a news story about a proposed roundabout can do that...
Jake C
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 4:55 a.m.
I think the people who strongly oppose roundabouts are generally the people who have no idea how to handle everyday driving situations. Seriously, if you can handle merging onto a highway on-ramp, you can handle driving through a 15-MPH roundabout. @Beth: If you're anxious about driving on roundabouts as an older driver, my best advice to you is just to practice driving through them at slow speeds at low-traffic times. Maybe start with the Maple Rd & M-14 roundabouts since it's easy to just keep going if you accidentally take a wrong exit, and turn around and come back and try again.
Ann English
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 11:54 p.m.
The first time I made a left turn at the roundabout on Maple south of M-14, I did it in the dark morning, when traffic was very light. It was easy. When I do it the afternoons at rush hour, the northbound Maple usually yields the right of way for me; I'm sure many of them simply turn right onto M-14. When I first went on eastbound Lee Road and US-23 roundabout, I got into the lane farthest right and found that it led to Whitmore Lake Road instead of southbound US-23, so I got back to Eight Mile Road using it instead the freeway.
Gramma
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 11:42 a.m.
She could try the one at Superior and Geddes. There's no foot traffic or 18 wheelers and buses to contend with there. Oh, but wait...that wouldn't help in practicing for Stae and Ellsworth.
Tex Treeder
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 2:30 a.m.
I think the people who strongly advocate roundabouts are generally the people who don't have to use them every day.
Salinemary
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 2:10 a.m.
I don't have problems negotiating a round about. But I travel that intersection at both morning and evening rush hour and a round about there will be an absolute disaster. I'm calling a road commissioner tomorrow to give them my two cents.
a2susan
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 1:44 a.m.
I grew up and learned to drive outside of Boston where there were many rotaries (roundabouts in MI). When I went back to visit recently I noticed that many of the rotaries have been made into traffic light intersections. I think it's just a fad here for now.
Sarah
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 10:45 a.m.
I was coming to post pretty much the same thing, Susan! My hometown has a rotary in its downtown, so we had to learn how to navigate one or we'd never survive... but most of them are being pulled out and replaced with the far more sensible traffic lights. I will say, though, that at non-rush hour times the Geddes one, in front of Concordia, does make my travel time a lot faster, but I can't imagine it at rush hour!
daytona084
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 1:39 a.m.
I agree that the roundabouts being built around here are way too small. Especially those on Maple / M14 / Skyline. They basically function like a 4-way stop. In other places they build big roundabouts that allow time and distance for the traffic to weave within the roundabout. I agree that a small roundabout will not handle the traffic at Ellsworth / State.
Beth
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 1:36 a.m.
I will confess that I am not sure what to do in roundabouts, I'm terrified of them, and I avoid them if humanly possible. How do I "educate myself"? Watching a video is not going to do it for me, and I am both too old and too cheap to go backto driving lessons. AA keeps building these things - maybe they can think of a realistic way to help teach drivers how to use them? A voluntary, free in-car training session?
luvdady
Sat, Oct 8, 2011 : 1:57 a.m.
my wife agrees with you 100% and I think the signs often resemble crop circle patterns.
grimmk
Fri, Oct 7, 2011 : 3:52 a.m.
When you are in the roundabout you have the right of way. People (should) yield to you. That means when you are approaching one you slow down and make sure there is no close in coming traffic before you enter it. You don't need a turn signal. It's very simple and easy! Don't take risks and it's ok if you have to stop!
Tom Teague
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 6:10 p.m.
Beth - Believe me, I understand. I shared my first roundabout experience with a young, texting driver of a large SUV who ran up on the curbs twice while driving through. I set the clock early for the next Sunday morning and drove through a couple of roundabouts before 8 a.m. That gave me a little more time to read the signs and figure out what exactly I needed to do when the traffic was heavier. I recommend it.
J. A. Pieper
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 12:08 a.m.
I drive through the intersection on a regular basis, and I am of the belief that there is way too much traffic on those two roads for a roundabout. I know how to drive on them, but it seems many other people do not, and they are scary. Have you people seen the signs around Skyline? Why not just make it a four way stop, it will end up being like that anyway! (ha ha) Idea - don't build/open another business around there, everyone will be trying to figure out ways to avoid that area! Heaven help us...
Spyker
Tue, Oct 4, 2011 : 11:46 p.m.
I live within a mile of the traffic circle that was constructed last year at the intersection of Whittaker Rd and Stony Creek Rd in southern Ypsilanti Township. It works great for everyone traveling on Whittaker Rd, the heavier traveled of the two roads, but it is HORRIBLE for anyone traveling north on Stony Creek who often have to wait several minutes - with engines idling- for a sufficiently large opening in the southbound Whittaker Rd traffic to allow them to enter the traffic circle. Now that the new road has been constructed behind the Paint Creek Shopping Center, many northbound Stony Creek vehicles use this road to travel further north and enter onto Whittaker at the new Traffic Light at the Whittaker Rd/Huron River Drive intersection! I hope I am not the only one who recognizes the irony of this traffic planning. And to answer the question as to why so many traffic circles are being constructed in Michigan? The Federal Govt is having a contest between the various State DOTs to encourage adoption of this traffic control tool. Traffic circles are a useful tool, but no tool is appropriate for all situations.
Frank Lee
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 1:22 p.m.
Your description of the roundabout by your home is that of its intended design, to move the most amount of traffic. This is not a disadvantage to anyone.
ChrisW
Tue, Oct 4, 2011 : 11:10 p.m.
I hope the signage is better than the ones off Maple and Geddes. Trying to get on US-23 South from Westbound Geddes is pretty confusing.
grimmk
Fri, Oct 7, 2011 : 3:49 a.m.
How....? You can only go two ways....back the way you came or exit onto the highway as it is labeled.... I use that roundabout at least two-three times a day. If you are IN the roundabout you have the right of way. People yield to you. Simple.
grye
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 1:03 p.m.
That's an easy one. The right hand lane goes right on to the highway.
Broken Record
Tue, Oct 4, 2011 : 11:06 p.m.
When did roundabouts become the cure all answer for traffic problems? A lot of the drivers in AA are students relatively new to driving and even seasoned drivers seem to have issues with roundabouts. I've almost been hit three times in the Brighton roundabout because no one knows how to use them and now I, like many others avoid it altogether. I hope they reconsider putting one at that intersection, I think all it really needs is to be widened to four lanes on both State and Ellsworth.
Charlie Brown's Ghost
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 12:10 p.m.
Peregrine, would fact-based discussion without hyperbole include things like, "More dishonesty from America's right wing?" <a href="http://www.annarbor.com/news/willow-run-groups-ad-hints-at-chinese-connection-for-proposed-detroit-windsor-bridge/?plckFindCommentKey=CommentKey:ba485a60-6657-491b-950a-cceb70abdf3c">http://www.annarbor.com/news/willow-run-groups-ad-hints-at-chinese-connection-for-proposed-detroit-windsor-bridge/?plckFindCommentKey=CommentKey:ba485a60-6657-491b-950a-cceb70abdf3c</a>
Peregrine
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 12:30 a.m.
No one has ever claimed that roundabouts are "the cure all [sic] answer for traffic problems". Do you suppose we can have a fact-based discussion without the strawmen and hyperbole?
say it plain
Tue, Oct 4, 2011 : 11:06 p.m.
When are Americans going to figure these things out lol?! European drivers have them everywhere, and they are much much nicer than the constant stopping and dangerous intersections we have here! The video @Tom Teague links to is useful--look at it people! I can't wait til Americans have learned how to use roundabouts properly. The thing is that folks need to get slowed down before approaching the thing to a nice steady 15 or 20 mph, so that they don't end up treating the signs telling you to yield to traffic already in the circle like a stop sign, and then zipping through. The yield signs are often not really being used properly at the ones near Skyline, and if people sit and sit and sit and then zzzzzoooommm through, it throws a wrench in the works bigtime. If everyone is doing a nice slow steady approach and feels confident that there won't be one of those blasted 'zipper' cars coming through at 30 or more mph to worry about, then the roundabout can work its magic of allowing traffic to keep moving instead of standing still so much! That said, I have no idea what the specific issues are for that intersection...but man if they don't make it so that Americans are led led led to figuring out how to use them, it might indeed be messy! I hope they're starting to include roundabouts in driver's ed!
say it plain
Thu, Oct 6, 2011 : 5:09 p.m.
@Tex Treeder and @djacs24, as @Peter Baker said, the currency comparison makes no sense, and neither does the steering wheel one (that's only in the UK and Ireland, btw--continental europe drives on the right like we do). I find the reaction I've gotten to the "Americans" comment amusing at least! @NHolmes is right...we need to just *teach* people how to use them in driver's ed. We also have to make sure roundabouts are designed well, and the ones at Skyline are less than ideal in how they feed drivers on to them, it seems to me. I didn't realize people might essentialize so deeply about american drivers versus european drivers lol, as though I am implying, or that it might be reasonable to argue, that by virtue of, what, our passports?!, european drivers are inherently suited to roundabouts but americans are not?! We'd be happier drivers if we didn't need to stop so darn often! The stats show clearly that roundabouts reduce injury-causing traffic accidents! And we'd get better mpg on our cars (and we do like those guzzlers, so we should be hoping hoping hoping to stop having to stop so darn often!) We just have to get over that--dare I say it!--"American" tendency to resist learning something new! (there I go again ;-) )
Tex Treeder
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 6:01 p.m.
Exactly. British drivers have the steering wheel on the right side of the car, and they have fewer deaths from handguns. We should put our steering wheels on the right side as well and maybe that will reduce handgun deaths here.
djacks24
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 1:30 p.m.
"When are Americans going to figure these things out lol?! European drivers have them everywhere, and they are much much nicer than the constant stopping and dangerous intersections we have here!" Then why don't we just have all cars sold here put the drivers seat on the left, just like in Europe?
NHolmes
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 12:07 p.m.
I'm a huge fan of roundabouts. They save time, they save gas, and they reduce accidents, BUT... they really must be included in Driver's Ed classes. It's not reasonable to expect people to navigate one safely when they've never had any instruction.
Charlie Brown's Ghost
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 12:07 p.m.
For some people, the problem is always Americans, isn't it?
Peter Baker
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 4:46 a.m.
"Comments like this just show that American drivers are not European drivers, and trying to inflict European driving standards on American drivers isn't always the best thing to do." Really? Drivers are drivers, we all learn and adapt to the situations we are put in to. This isn't a cultural issue, it's a matter of safety and improving road design. "When are we going to adopt Euros as our currency?" That's just nonsense.
Tex Treeder
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 2:33 a.m.
"The yield signs are often not really being used properly at the ones near Skyline." "If everyone is doing a nice slow steady approach... [etc., etc.]" Comments like this just show that American drivers are not European drivers, and trying to inflict European driving standards on American drivers isn't always the best thing to do. Europeans having been using Euros for years now. When are we going to adopt Euros as our currency?
Chaz H
Tue, Oct 4, 2011 : 10:59 p.m.
To all those who fear the roundabout... educate yourselves. Roundabouts drastically reduce injuries in crashes. They also increase traffic flow and reduce carbon emissions from idling vehicles. The problem is not the roundabout, it is the lack of knowledge amongst drivers on how to navigate them (and slamming on one's brakes in fear of what to do is not the answer). They are not difficult, just different. I am not a traffic engineer, but I write software for one, and I have seen the statistics first hand to back up what I am saying.
luvdady
Thu, Oct 6, 2011 : 9:15 p.m.
grye yes I get the concept but when you don't know WHO IS coming FORWARD AND WHO IS TURNING OFF it is quite insane. Ie at geddes and 23 let alone the visual obstructions in the way. fortunately I just added full coverage and no deductible to my clunker so I will just guess from now on
grye
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 1:02 p.m.
Luvdady: If you enter the circle when there is a break instead of waiting for traffic to clear, they work just fine. You can see when someone intends to exit before you enter, you just need to be ready to go and merge in before the next car comes. If you wait, you'll never get in until the whole thing is cleared.
Charlie Brown's Ghost
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 11:26 a.m.
"Roundabouts drastically reduce injuries in crashes" I agree that they are designed to do this, but in reality, due to the lower brain function in many people these days, that isn't the case. For example, four light poles around the traffic circles at M-14 and Maple Rd have been taken out my "drivers."
luvdady
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 1:29 a.m.
the real problem with roundabouts is you have no idea who is turning off and whom you have to yield to. geddes road and 23 near wcc are they turning or not?? make it clear who is coming and who isnt. and that saves a lot of confussion.
tdw
Tue, Oct 4, 2011 : 10:56 p.m.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPOTg-7pV64" rel='nofollow'>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPOTg-7pV64</a>
DonBee
Tue, Oct 4, 2011 : 10:37 p.m.
BOO! No more roundabouts! No more roundabouts! BOO! I have on a number of occasions been nearly hit in a roundabout - stop the insanity and save land - No more roundabouts!
Peter Baker
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 4:43 a.m.
I have on a number of occasions been nearly hit in every part of roads and highways. It's not just the road design, it's the people behind the wheel.
Basic Bob
Tue, Oct 4, 2011 : 10:32 p.m.
How will Pittsfield's State Road widening project or the airport runway expansion project fit into all this? There should be a "master plan" rather than just a band-aid fix like they did in front of Walmart. And I hope they don't put one of those crazy triangle curbs in the Costco exit like they did across from Campus Parkway, or drag-race style five-lanes-to-two transitions like Michigan Avenue.
fjord
Tue, Oct 4, 2011 : 10:29 p.m.
This is a horrendous idea. Way too much traffic at that intersection for a roundabout to be effective. The only possible way that this could work out would be to build a roundabout with a significantly longer radius than is typical of the ones in this area, and there's not enough space at that intersection to do so.
Peter Baker
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 4:42 a.m.
"We know what's best for you, and we'll legislate it to make you do it." You know, somebody designed traditional intersections in the past and made you deal with them. It's possible that we're getting better at things.
Peregrine
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 3:18 a.m.
The safety statistics for modern roundabouts are pretty compelling, but you don't seem like the kind of person swayed by "mere" facts. And if safety should not be a consideration when designing roads and traffic systems, then what should be?
Tex Treeder
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 2:28 a.m.
"The small radius of modern roundabouts is intentional and is a safety feature." Translated into English: "We know what's best for you, and we'll legislate it to make you do it."
Peregrine
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 12:15 a.m.
The small radius of modern roundabouts is intentional and is a safety feature. It slows traffic down reducing the likelihood of an accident and reducing the risk of injury should there be an accident.
bobr
Tue, Oct 4, 2011 : 10:17 p.m.
A basic roundabout would help out with the increased traffic. Basic, as opposed to the one just off US 23 near Brighton. Looks like we're going to get a lot more traffic on the south side of our town.
Kevin
Wed, Oct 26, 2011 : 5:29 p.m.
Here's the one off US 23 near Brighton which looks like two roundabouts combined: <a href="http://maps.google.com/maps?q=US+23+near+Brighton.&hl=en&ll=42.50617,-83.759685&spn=0.001155,0.001827&hnear=U.S.+23,+Brighton+Township,+Livingston,+Michigan&t=h&z=19&vpsrc=6" rel='nofollow'>http://maps.google.com/maps?q=US+23+near+Brighton.&hl=en&ll=42.50617,-83.759685&spn=0.001155,0.001827&hnear=U.S.+23,+Brighton+Township,+Livingston,+Michigan&t=h&z=19&vpsrc=6</a>
luvdady
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 1:26 a.m.
the one by the brighton costco? that thing is murder.
Jessie
Tue, Oct 4, 2011 : 10:04 p.m.
NNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Buster W.
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 1:48 a.m.
YYYYYYEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tom Teague
Tue, Oct 4, 2011 : 9:37 p.m.
Roundabouts are becoming very common, not only in Michigan but in other places I travel for work. I took a few minutes one early Sunday morning to conquer one in light traffic and haven't found them intimidating ever since. Here's a Michigan DOT video that explains how to use them as well as the differences between roundabouts and old-fashioned traffic circles such as the one that the Griswalds drove round in England. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YbE9pZACYM" rel='nofollow'>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YbE9pZACYM</a>
Peregrine
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 12:20 a.m.
The lanes of the roundabout match the lanes of the roads approaching and departing. To my recollection those are all two-lane roads, so the roundabout will also be two lanes. And as I said elsewhere, the small radius is a safety feature designed to slow traffic down. That results in fewer accidents and fewer injuries.
djacks24
Tue, Oct 4, 2011 : 9:54 p.m.
I'm very familiar with them and not afraid of them. I drive through the one by my house off Whitaker road daily. That particular one works very well. But we are talking about State/Ellsworth here. Its going to have be at least a 3-4 lane roundabout with a very large circumference (I'm thinking a lot larger than the existing available area provides).
djacks24
Tue, Oct 4, 2011 : 9:36 p.m.
Roundabouts seem to work well when there is heavy traffic volume generally coming from one direction, but at a really busy intersection like State/Ellsworth, that's going to be a clusterbleep! That's going to have to be one very large roundabout. I'm liking like the !-94/23 interchange. Obviously there is not even near that amount of room so this will be interesting...
Bob
Thu, Oct 6, 2011 : 8:49 p.m.
Actually, traffic flow is improved when traffic is coming from all directions on a roundabout. If it's just one direction traffic gets held up as you have to give way to traffic already on the roundabout.
alarictoo
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 4:12 p.m.
Also, that intersection has historically had a higher than average occurrence of accidents. I can't imagine that adding a traffic circle there is going to improve matters. Just out of curiosity, I'm wondering how many people who have recently taken drivers' tests have been required to drive through one of these traffic circles. Also, has the state added any questions to the written tests that cover traffic circles? Because, quite frankly, I still happen across quite a few drivers who seem completely mystified by them when I am navigating traffic circles around town.
sellers
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 12:25 p.m.
I too am curious the size, it would have to have a significant size to afford gaps to allow entrance into the circle. I've driven many a circle (think MSU and OU campuses) plus the roundabouts across the state, and they tend to flow well, and the number of confused drivers will continue to decrease over time. This intersection in question does have my curious of the engineering and civil designs and how it would impact Pittsfield's plan for that urban center on the NE side.
Salinemary
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 2:14 a.m.
I agree djacks. I think the Road Commissioners should drive that intersection at 8:20 and 5:10 every day for a week and then see what they think.
Tom Smith
Tue, Oct 4, 2011 : 9:23 p.m.
Jeez, not another roundabout. The designers who think those things work have obviously never driven through them, nor tried to avoid other people driving through them.
Peter Baker
Thu, Oct 6, 2011 : 2:07 p.m.
@alarictoo, sometimes it's hard to avoid sarcasm when refuting something that someone thinks is "obvious" when it's so obviously not.
alarictoo
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 4:05 p.m.
@Peter Baker - Ahhh... sarcasm. So easy a caveman could do it. ;^)
grye
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 12:59 p.m.
If you merge into the traffic, they work fine. If you sit on your duff and wait for the entire thing to clear, you'll never go anywhere.
Peter Baker
Wed, Oct 5, 2011 : 4:39 a.m.
"The designers who think those things work have obviously never driven through them" Yes, I'm sure that's obviously the case. If you can't use them, it must be a design flaw.
Ann English
Tue, Oct 4, 2011 : 11:44 p.m.
"Avoid other people driving through them"? You mean yielding the right of way to them? You could say yielding the right of way is a method of avoiding other drivers. I had suggested putting a roundabout there, so this headline excited me. It will probably have two lanes running in each direction, not three or more like Lee Road does at US-23. Nobody can speed through a roundabout, like they can at a traffic signal such as the one at Barton Drive and Pontiac Trail.
Jack
Tue, Oct 4, 2011 : 9:45 p.m.
I agree 100%