M.Bradshaw

Tue, Dec 28, 2010 : 10:57 p.m.

Speed limits in Ann arbor are a bit obtuse. But a bigger concern is the timing of the traffic lights. I wouldn't mind driving the posted limit if there was some reasonable expectation that I would make the next light. But the traffic lights seem to change from green to yellow to red randomly, with no regard to trafic flow. If the lights were sequenced in a logical progression drivers would be able to follow the pattern without speeding...saving time, gas, and wear and tear on their vehicles.

John Q

Tue, Dec 21, 2010 : 9:01 a.m.

A few reality checks for some of the speeding advocates: 1. The 85th percentile standard doesn't take into account factors like pedestrian safety, bikers, etc. While the MSP claims that speed limits are supposed to "provide for the safety of all highway users", the 85th percentile standard doesn't do that. 2. Speed studies do allow local communities to take into account pedestrian and bikers and other safety concerns. Those can trump whatever speed limits would be set by the 85th percentile. The same is true of physical considerations like hills, curves, etc. 3. The 85th percentile standard may provide a more safe driving environment for cars. It doesn't give any consideration for the safety of pedestrians or bikers. People like Tom and Jim who push the 85th standard as a scientific standard are doing so without any consideration for pedestrians or bikers. I do agree with those that say that simply setting the speed limit artificially low won't stop speeding. If the city wants people to drive slower, they need to design the roads for lower speed driving, not encouraging people to drive faster.

Jim Walker

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 6:16 p.m.

For bearlab, No, I was not surprised that the main data did not move very much. That is the 70 years science, proven many times over. Please do not overlook that the average/50th percentile numbers are up slightly in mph -- but also in vehicles. The goal is to get the smoothest and tightest Pace you can. 85th percentile technology does not concentrate the high number of vehicles right at the 85th percentile speed, which also tends to be the top of the Pace +/- 1 mph. It tends to create a smooth flow in the Pace, the 10 mph band which ends with the 85th percentile speed. If you understand bell curves, the 85th percentile is about half way down the slope to the high end. The peak number of vehicles is concentrated around the 50th or average speed, +/- about 2 mph. Regards, James C. Walker, NMA

Stuart Brown

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 6:10 p.m.

Speechless, Once again it is the city in violation of the law; get your facts straight. How many times do you need to be reminded that Ghost got it wrong when he said, "We should not validate the rule breakers." If you meant the city, you and Ghost would have been right. But you mean average citizens driving down roads that typically have posted speed limits equal to less than the 30th percentile of free flowing traffic. This need to control others using the repressive apparatus of the state is truly revealing. Some people love state repression so much, they don't appreciate or even comprehend the hypocrisy of the state in not following its own rules. When I was battling the city attorney over a speeding ticket they were trying to stick me with, I was appalled at their willingness to intentionally set and enforce rules they new were being violated by a majority of drivers on the road. Common sense tells most people that designing rules to intentionally entrap or ensnare drivers is a fundamentally corrupt and dishonest approach to rule setting. Rules should be designed so it is hard for the average citizen to break them, not easy.

Greggy_D

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 1:53 p.m.

Speechless.....you are mired in an emotionally based argument, completely devoid of facts.

bearlab

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 1:37 p.m.

For Mr. Walker.. thank you for posting the data on Washtenaw. I am a bit surprised at the 50% percentile data as it does not seem to match with my experiences. I am seeing that average speeds have increased by 5-8 mph but that is not important here. I have a follow up question. Are you surprised with the data showing no real change? I do believe that all traffic moving at a similar speed is safer but I am not seeing that in the data... there still seems to a wider range. With the increase to 45 I would have hoped to see more traffic clustered right at 45. Am I wrong in reading the data? Thank you

Speechless

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 1:23 p.m.

"... Speechless - You are hopeless...." What you're doing here is all about marshalling statistics to justify an urge to press down harder on the accelerator pedal. It's beyond reasonably shutting down a few genuine speed traps. Below, as my last word (finally) on this long thread, is a worthy reposting from Barb's earlier. concise comment: "... Ghost's posts are so right. This is an insane idea in a town where so many people ride bikes and are pedestrians. We should not validate the rule breakers. Slow the heck down. You'll be saving gas and lives. I'm amazed at how many people think it's their right to drive fast and the police who give them tickets are just trying to drum up revenue...."

Roadman

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 1:22 p.m.

The best way to save tax revenues is laying off officers. 27 officer and civilian positions were cut by the Budget Committee whwn Leigh Greden was around and the best the police could do to oppose it was to have their union endorse Pat Lesko for mayor in 2010. Let's cut these police positions to raise mony in city coffers, not ticket civilians.

Eric D

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 12:39 p.m.

About time!! $110.000. says it all. SPEED TRAP! I will venture to say that the officer with the lowest number of written violations each month. Is encouraged to do more.

Greggy_D

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 11:47 a.m.

Speechless said: "Encouraging faster driving means the loss of a little bit more of what makes our town a littlle more humane than, say, most of Detroit's suburbs. " I guess you would have had the same viewpoint when the motorized vehicle replaced the horse and buggy as the primary mode of transportation.

Tom Wieder

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 11:44 a.m.

Speechless - You are hopeless. You talk in generalities, make baseless allegations about the intentions and dishonesty of others and have not a single bit of evidence (other than your personal and subjectuve impressions of reality) to support anything you say. I won't waste any more time talking logically to you.

Speechless

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 11:37 a.m.

"... You could post 55 on the 45 mph portion of Washtenaw, and the 85th percentile speeds would still likely be 47-48 because that is as fast as most people find to be safe and comfortable...." If portions of Washtenaw were actually posted at 55 mph, any driver who passed through there daily at 47-48 mph would make themselves the target of periodic road rage, not to mention being subject to very frequent incidents of tailgating. A minority of road ragers can apply aggressive peer pressure to effectively force others to drive faster out of fear of these bullies. What's being disregarded here is the cultural tendency of Michigan drivers (variable elsewhere) to view posted speed limits as the lowest possible tolerated minimum — at best. I've caused much frustration on area roads by carefully driving right at the posted speed limit in the right lane; the lead feet seem to hate it when forced to use left lane in order to continue speeding.

Jim Walker

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 11:04 a.m.

For Speechless, bearlab and anyone who believes higher posted limits to reflect actual traffic speeds will significantly raise the ACTUAL traffic speeds. Note that average speed and 50th percentile are not identical parameters, but they normally are within 1 mph on city streets. Data is from studies of free flowing speeds in good weather. Washtenaw, section was posted 35 before, now corrected to 45. 85th percentile speed before the change 47-48 mph, after 46-48 mph 50th percentile or average speed before 41-42 mph, after 42-44 Pace (10 mph band with most vehicles) before 37-46, after 37-46 or 38-47 Before the change, the posted 35 represented under the 10th percentile speed with 90+% of free flowing traffic traveling above the limit. After, the 45 limit is about the 79th percentile. Washtenaw, section was posted 30 before, now corrected to 40 85th percentile speed before the change 39-41 mph, after 40-41 mph 50th percentile or average speed before 34-35 mph, after 35-37 Pace (10 mph band with most vehicles) before 31-40, after 31-40. 32-41 or 33-42 Before the change, the posted 30 represented under the 10th percentile speed with 90+% of free flowing traffic traveling above the limit. After, the 40 limit is about the 80th percentile. Note all the changes, if any, are very small, less than 3 mph and usually 1 or 2 mph. Note the 50th speeds tend to be up slightly, more so than the 85th speed changes, because what proper speed limits do is raise the speeds of the slowest groups to decrease speed variance and promote more uniform speeds with fewer conflicts, less passing, fewer lane changes, and less aggressive driving. The upper end changes very little, if at all, but the whole flow is smoother and more uniform, and the area ceases to be a lucrative speed trap. Note one other little known fact, shown on page 15 in the state police booklet www.michigan.gov/speedlimits The drivers with the lowest statistical risk of being in an accident are those around the 85th percentile speed. On the 45 mph portion of Washtenaw, the drivers in the mid-40 mph range are much less likely to have an accident than the drivers in the mid-30 mph range and hugely safer than the occasional driver in the 20-30 mph range. People who say "drivers will always drive 10 over" have not read very much of the research, because it is simply not reflected in the data. You could post 55 on the 45 mph portion of Washtenaw, and the 85th percentile speeds would still likely be 47-48 because that is as fast as most people find to be safe and comfortable - and remember, when the 85th percentile is 47-48, the bulk of the traffic is in the Pace band at 37-46 or 38-47. Not many drivers are right at the 85th percentile speed. The ironic thing in this type of debate is that the people who are most concerned with bike and pedestrian safety need the same results as those of us who support the proven 70 year history of the 85th percentile speed methodology to achieve the greatest safety. A smooth, uniform flow of traffic produces the greatest safety for all users. Promoting artificially low numbers to be painted on the signs, low numbers that the vast majority of drivers will not respect, damages safety and makes things worse for all of us. One last point - improved safety for pedestrians near the Islamic Center came from the better crosswalk and median treatment, not the lower posted speed limit. Regards, James C. Walker, NMA

Speechless

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 10:55 a.m.

Holy lead foot! Sorry, I don't buy into that. What's written up above is lawyer-speak meaning: Faster is better!  Believe me, you'll like it!  Just trust us! As for wild hyperbole, the motorists association tossed the first bomb in that regard. "Border-to-border speed trap" exaggerates to such a degree that it becomes a straightforward falsehood. Yet the mental image conveyed by that phrase does hint at an agenda beyond ending a true speed trap or two. Encouraging faster driving means the loss of a little bit more of what makes our town a littlle more humane than, say, most of Detroit's suburbs. No, life will not become better by giving drivers the "freedom" to press on their accelerators a bit harder. Instead, we'll get a community that's even more car-centric than it already is, a less welcoming place for experiencing public spaces through other means, less friendly to bikers, walkers and commuters. Saner American urban regions try to tone down their currently car-centric nature to move toward a relatively more diverse, humane and sustainable civic future. The organized motorists lean toward the opposite direction, which quite correctly raises the suspicions of organized walkers and bikers. Earlier on, I spoke to how changing posted limits does have a real impact on the average speed of vehicles, despite the mythology some present here that vast numbers of drivers are robots who can't help but unconsciously seek out that hallowed 85th 'parallel.' Plymouth is a better by being slower. About Huron Parkway specifically, see Ghost's comment far above. I've also never been pulled over north of Washtenaw after many trips through there ------------ One more roadway example from off the top of my head: North of Detroit, at least one section of Woodward has (as I best recall) a 35 mph speed limit, despite being a divided boulevard with at least three lanes on each side. And, oh, is that bothersome to some of the locals! People would be — and sometimes still are — quite comfortable zipping down that wide stretch of road at 45 mph or higher. They feel "oppressed" by the 35 mph standard in that area, as it is "natural" to drive faster than that. But when that is done (and I also seem to recall a higher 40-45 mph posted speed some years earlier), this roadway most definitely has a certain 'Mad Max' feel to it. It loses any human scale, so to speak, and becomes a clearly hostile environment best avoided by all slower creatures and vehicles. This is what I see being facilitated by the motorists association's little campaign here. Might the associaton soon charge into Oakland County as an aspiring savior for Woodward's teeming masses of oppressed lead feet?

American Family

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 10:26 a.m.

For once... I agree with Ghost. God help us all. :)

Tom Wieder

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 8:54 a.m.

Speechless- Nobody's talking about raising speed limits across the board, without regard to safety. We're only talking about getting rid of "speed traps." Let me be clear on what the term "speed trap" means as used by me, Jim Walker, the Michigan State Police (MSP) and traffic engineering science across the country. That is where the posted limit is significantly below the bench-mark of the 85th percentile of free-flowing traffic (except for special road or traffic conditions. Again, the 85th percentile is the speed at, or below, the speed that 85% of the drivers drive under normal circumstances. Anything significantly below this makes law violators, and potential ticket recipients, out of MOST drivers, not a reckless few who drive too fast for conditions. Years of study have found that setting the limits at this bench-mark is actually safer than using lower limits. It makes actual speeds more uniform, which reduces dangerous variations in the speeds at which people drive. Those variations in travel speed, which increase things like lane-changing in traffic, tail-gating, etc. cause many accidents. We are not crazy people who want to run down bikes and walkers. Neither does the MSP. What we propose is a win-win-win. Safety is increased, drivers may drive at appropriate speeds without fear of being ticketed, and police can spend their time doing more important things. Yesterday, you accused me of being disingenuous. You are the one guilty of that. Yes, women have "some testosterone," but it is clear that you view speeding as some sort of predominantly male-aggression-produced behavior that others have to be protected from. You talk about "vendettas," "personal vengeance" and "Davids and Goliaths." What hyperbolic nonsense. We want safe roads with rational speed limits that do not arbitrarily punish people for behavior that is not anti-social. If you would take some time to understand how these things work in reality, you might actually like what we're proposing, instead of being irrationally opposed to it.

Speechless

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 11:30 p.m.

"... the result of "social narcissism" and "all-around testosterone poisoning?" I will tell that to my wife and the hundreds of other good, feminist women who have been snared in the city's speed traps. What nonsense!..." First, women have some testosterone, too.... Speed traps are one thing. The city's general policies and practices for setting speed limits are another, They're separate matters. For speed traps, target specific locations and leave the rest of the city alone. We don't need to raise limits all across town to assauge some drivers' personal anger. To pursue a vendetta against specific (presumed) speed traps, the motorists association shouldn't be attempting to blow up existing policies. A sense of personal vengeance isn't worth the unfortunate social costs of raising speeds on many city roadways. It's preferable that Ann Arbor be less like Southfield, Troy or Farmington Hills — fewer racetracks. In the end, most drivers who clamor for higher speed limits just want to drive faster when they feel like it, regardless of the overall impact on pedestrians, bicyclists, and children playing in front yards. Other priorities are secondary. Here's rooting for the Washtenaw Biking and Walking Coalition! May the 'self-powered' Davids defeat the 'horsepowered' Goliaths....

Stuart Brown

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 3:07 p.m.

Speechless said, "Must we drum up pseudo-academic rationalizations to justify social narcissism, driver recklessness, and all-around testosterone poisoning?" Pseudo-academic? You mean that it is narcissistic to expect that if the State says the reason we need to infringe on your right to be left alone is so we can improve the safety on the public roads, that safety will actually improve? Or we, the citizens, should give the state a pass even if we know the enforcement is not actually improving safety since the state means well?

Tom Wieder

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 2:19 p.m.

@Speechless- "Must we drum up pseudo-academic rationalizations to justify social narcissism, driver recklessness, and all-around testosterone poisoning?" Ah...I get it now. The only reason people want to drive faster, and do drive faster, than the posted speed limits, limits that all traffic engineering science, the Michigan State Police and others say are artificially low, is the result of "social narcissism" and "all-around testosterone poisoning?" I will tell that to my wife and the hundreds of other good, feminist women who have been snared in the city's speed traps. What nonsense! The pathology here is not drivers who behave normally, rationally, and safely. It is the "don't-bother-me-with-the-facts" attitude of government officials who cave in to irrational and unsupportable concepts of safety, or seek additional sources of revenue, or both, and insist on writing and enforcing laws which selectively punish people for doing something that is not harmful to others.

Speechless

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 1:39 p.m.

"... In England all intersections are roundabouts with yield signs, not stop signs... traffic fatalities are less frequent...." Yes, roundabouts can be cool. Us Yanks will have to get used to them, but over time they'll have a worthy place in our road system. Right now I'm finding amusement in imagining how the city will look after every last street intersection, both big and small, has been rebuilt as a roundabout. Perhaps the talented illustrators, futurists, and geeks associated with boingboing.net would have fun playing with such a concept. "... where is the data that shows police enforcement of the rule that says a vehicle must come to a complete stop at a stop sign has any significant impact on the number of people violating this rule? In other words, there is no evidence police enforcement in this area improves safety but the public is burdened with police enforcement actions in this area...." Must we drum up pseudo-academic rationalizations to justify social narcissism, driver recklessness, and all-around testosterone poisoning? As for rolling stop signs, I refer less to drivers who slow down to around 1-2 mph as they approach for a right turn, although that can be annoying when done at a busy downtown intersection. What's so unnerving is when drivers lightly pump their brakes a couple times before proceeding through a stop sign.

Stuart Brown

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 12:44 p.m.

Will, It was clear to me that the city was prepared to fight tooth and nail to oppose the implementation of the 2006 law that changed the way speed limits are set. This law is a disaster from the city's point of view; the jig is up and they are going to have to find a new way of operating. I think from the law enforcement point of view, stopping vehicles is the name of the game. The more reasons the police can use to stop a vehicle, the better law enforcement's life is (that is, if you don't have to be the one actually stopping cars and dealing with irate people.) Speed limits are perfect because no matter how many tickets the police issue, it has no effect on the speeds traffic moves at. Why do police stop vehicles at 2am for a rolling stop at a stop sign when nobody is around? Simple, they are looking for drunk drivers, outstanding warrants and unpaid parking tickets but the guy who is just tired and wants to just get home is part of the collateral damage. Stopping cars at random is frowned on by the US Constitution but stopping a vehicle for a rolling stop at 2am has not been considered a violation.

Will Warner

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 12:15 p.m.

Stu: Congratulations on beating the ticket! I only wish that the reason you did was because the city began asking itself Whats wrong with this law, which is a more interesting outcome.

Stuart Brown

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 11:49 a.m.

Will Warner, I in fact successfully fought a speeding ticket with the city attorney's office using state law. The state law is controlling over the home rule act the city was citing as a defense of the local law. The city simply ignored it and stonewalled.

Will Warner

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 11:40 a.m.

@Greggy_D: I find it telling that many "pro low speed limit" posters above are completely ignoring the fact that the City of Ann Arbor is breaking State Law If State law is controlling, that will eventually be dispositive, so it is not very interesting and consequently that aspect of the issue is not getting much ink from posters. What is interesting is the tension between libertarian and communitarian sensibilities on display in these posts. Also interesting is the question: If people are ignoring (or, better, interrupting) a law, should we double-down on enforcement or ask: Whats wrong with this law?

Greggy_D

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 10:41 a.m.

I find it telling that many "pro low speed limit" posters above are completely ignoring the fact that the City of Ann Arbor is breaking State Law.

Stuart Brown

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 10:52 p.m.

Speechless said, "In that case, the local motorists association ought to bellow loudly for the abolition of stop signs all across town. These no doubt constitute a border-to-border traffic ticket trap. Though variable from location to location, I regularly witness drivers rolling stop signs. So, get rid of them all now, because Ann Arbor drivers have spoken their wishes clearly through countless acts of "non-stop" non-compliance. Further, some of this signage has been installed due to purely pedestrian motivations, another offense to impatient motorists who resent such heedlessness to their ceaseless hurry." You mean the way England has? In England all intersections are roundabouts with yield signs, not stop signs. And here is the best part, traffic fatalities are less frequent. Did you know that stop signs reduce the number of accidents but increase the number of fatalities due to the fact that the rare accidents that do happen are more serious accidents? I have another question for you, where is the data that shows police enforcement of the rule that says a vehicle must come to a complete stop at a stop sign has any significant impact on the number of people violating this rule? In other words, there is no evidence police enforcement in this area improves safety but the public is burdened with police enforcement actions in this area. Notice that it does not matter if the behavior in question is dangerous; if the enforcement does not actually improve safety there can be not justification for infringing on people's rights to be left alone. If the state is actually concerned with safety, it will search for more effective responses that actually do improve safety. But I think we know what the reality is. The state likes being in control and the state likes the revenue. The state can use traffic stops as an excuse to search people's cars and check for outstanding issues; plus the revenue is not that bad.

Speechless

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 8:29 p.m.

One small semantic clarification for my last comment further above: In the last paragraph, the phrase, "If that street's users could have voted on traffic measures," refers only to drivers who use Broadway as part of their route, and not to the residents who live along that street or else nearby. From the comment above: "... the seniors and international students would realize that the road to better safety does not include restrictions on speed limits...." I seriously doubt that those seniors and internationals who live near that section of Plymouth, and who also like the currently slower car speeds, will find that argument very convincing, This should be especially true for those who remember the killing by vehicle of the two students. Hopefully a number of these residents will get multiple opportunities to speak to any proposed policy changes that will lead to increased speed limits, assuming this issue is not railroaded through city council. "... If enforcement does not in fact deter, there is no justification for infringing on people's right to be left alone...." In that case, the local motorists association ought to bellow loudly for the abolition of stop signs all across town. These no doubt constitute a border-to-border traffic ticket trap. Though variable from location to location, I regularly witness drivers rolling stop signs. So, get rid of them all now, because Ann Arbor drivers have spoken their wishes clearly through countless acts of "non-stop" non-compliance. Further, some of this signage has been installed due to purely pedestrian motivations, another offense to impatient motorists who resent such heedlessness to their ceaseless hurry. "... It often turns out that with traffic control, better design of traffic control devices are the route to improved safety, not enforcement actions by police." Wisconsin presumably implements traffic device systems in ways very similar to how Michigan uses them. Yet my past experiences in various regions of that neighboring state have shown noticeably higher levels of basic courtesy and compliance. Our state has a serious cultural problem on its roadways that won't be fixed by merely tweaking electronic devices.

Stuart Brown

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 7:26 p.m.

Speechless said, '"... You can put all the 25 mph and 35 mph signs you want on roads that most people feel comfortable driving 35 or 45, and they will drive 35 and 45..." That's disingenuous.' No, that's a proven fact; what is the problem here? "I'd love to be a fly on the wall listening to a direct conversation between Walker, Wieder and the Islamic Center, also joined by seniors and international students who live nearby. How will they react when told firmly by motorist advocates, who live elsewhere, that any majority interest they have in keeping the current speed limit is just so, so wrong, and that it's incumbent upon them to agree to live in a less safe environment." I would too since the seniors and international students would realize that the road to better safety does not include restrictions on speed limits. The groups being referred to would realize that even if they got lower speed limits, the actual speeds on the road would not change hence they would be no safer. These groups would realize the path to improved pedestrian safety would include other strategies. Law enforcement is a poor way of improving safety in many circumstances. For example, it has been recently shown by researchers that bans on cell phone use while driving actually make safety worse not better. The fallacy is that enforcement actions have any significant impact on the rate of banned behavior. If enforcement does not in fact deter, there is no justification for infringing on people's right to be left alone. It often turns out that with traffic control, better design of traffic control devices are the route to improved safety, not enforcement actions by police. With Red Lights, longer yellow lights are effective at reducing Red Light running. When speed limits are set at the 85th percentile of free flowing traffic, compliance rates are much higher and safety improves. The improved compliance rate belies the notion that people will always exceed the posted speed limit by some amount.

Speechless

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 12:43 p.m.

"... You can put all the 25 mph and 35 mph signs you want on roads that most people feel comfortable driving 35 or 45, and they will drive 35 and 45..." That's disingenuous. We all know from experience that enough drivers will routinely drive 5-10 mph over the posted limit — whatever the limit happens to be. It doesn't have to be a majority, since a significant minority will do. Raising limits to 40 or 45 means, in practice, preparing oneself to deal with drivers tooling around at 50-55. Lots more fun for area walkers and bikers. Years ago, back when Plymouth was set at 40, there was nothing unusual about seeing drivers approach 50. Today, that happens a whole lot less. The Islamic Center, with the full support of First Ward reps, instigated the Plymouth speed reduction after two student members were killed crossing directly in front. The incident occurred within range of a security camera, and it appeared typical traffic speeds were a contributing factor. Speed did kill. I'd love to be a fly on the wall listening to a direct conversation between Walker, Wieder and the Islamic Center, also joined by seniors and international students who live nearby. How will they react when told firmly by motorist advocates, who live elsewhere, that any majority interest they have in keeping the current speed limit is just so, so wrong, and that it's incumbent upon them to agree to live in a less safe environment. Washtenaw between Stadium and campus, a residential area where the lanes can get uncomfortably narrow, increased from 30 to 40. Yes, typical speeds did noticably increase afterwards. So, yes, drivers were cognizant of the old 30 mph speed limit, which, overall, clearly limited their willingness to do 35-45. Posted speed limits do matter and have a meaningful impact on driving conditions. As for Broadway, before installation of the speed bumps it was more of a minor artery than a wide residential street, as most using it didn't live nearby. If that street's users could have voted on traffic measures, not only might they have shot down the idea of speed bumps, but the limit would have been raised by popular acclaim to 35 mph, or 30 at a minimum. Without the bumps, many impatient drivers seemed little concerned with child safety.

AlphaAlpha

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 7:47 a.m.

"2) The laws in question often are never bench marked for performance, in other words, is the enforcement effective?" Excellent point Mr. Brown. In the new age of austerity, citizens deserve better performance from the various service providers they hire. Better performance metrics, including benchmarking various policies claimed or assumed to be effective, will allow for more efficient use of public resources.

loves_fall

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 7:22 a.m.

@Speechless: "If you've spent time bicycling on paved roads, in town and/or out in the townships, you know that vehicle speed matters. If you've also spent time walking distances on sidwalks or asphalt pathways placed close to the roadway, speed does matter; you literally feel it. Faster traffic may move drivers around town a little quicker, but it brings down the overall quality of life in the community." I do spend a ton of time outside, as a bicyclist, scooter driver, walker, runner, kayaker, and suburban photographer. I feel a lot safer on my bicycle on Plymouth Rd. than I do on Main St. because I worry more about inattention and bullying than I do speed. Cyclist fatalities are most likely to occur in urban areas in the evening between 5-9 pm during rush hour when, ironically, no one can rush because there's so much traffic and gridlock. I would argue that many of those who are victims of hit-and-run accidents are struck by drunk drivers who may or may not be speeding but who are not able to pay attention. Speed may be a factor in some accidents, but I don't think speed is the cause of accidents. Variation in speed has been proven to cause problems (rush hour?) and that's the logic behind using 85th percentile to determine speed. That being said, who doesn't look at a speed limit sign and interpret the actual speed as at least 5 mph over? My drivers' ed teacher taught us to do that! My personal preference would be that they measure them empirically and set the rules based on safety (real safety, not like the orange warning signs that suggest every curve should be taken at or below granny speed) and then crack down on all speed violations. If speed limits are pulled out of a hat or dictated by anything other than science, I have an issue with enforcement. If, on the other hand, they can come up with an algorithm that holds water (possibly MSP -- it at least warrants some consideration) then I think they should employ it and take a zero tolerance policy on speeding. "Upping speed limits guarantees that roadway corridors become more hostile places to walk or bike and, for that matter, to park your car or turn into a driveway. Public spaces or common areas along the way will seem more isolated when speeds rise, as fewer will want to walk or bike to them. Even when not necessarily more dangerous, it's not pleasant to be in the close vicinity of cars traveling 40-50 mph." I don't think you can make that blanket statement based on your own preferences. I don't mind cars traveling 40-50 mph as long as I have a bike lane, and I'm out there all the time. My problems with cars are usually the same: fear that they aren't paying attention or that they will deliberately bully me for fun. I've personally had that happen much more on urban streets with low speed limits than suburban streets with higher ones. Again, though, I don't think you can or should try to legislate those behaviors by modifying speed. I don't think there's a strong relationship. "Speeding violations are typically reflect aggressive behavior." Speeding or speeding violations? I doubt everyone driving 5 over is some kind of aggressive monster. Most people are keeping up with the group norm and driving at a speed that is comfortable for the type of area they're driving. I might agree with you that a large gap in speed is aggressive -- if everyone is going 30-35 and some guy flies by at 50 -- but that gets back to the 85th percentile thing and the fact that minimizing variation, fast and slow, is safer than allowing it.

Stuart Brown

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 2 a.m.

In regard to so called "Safety Laws" on the books to punish violators; here is the real deal on why these laws are often a bad deal for the public. 1) If the inherent danger of the activity in question is not sufficient to deter people from engaging in said behavior, why are we to believe random ticket turds from the state will have much more of an impact in "protecting" the public? 2) The laws in question often are never bench marked for performance, in other words, is the enforcement effective? If the enforcement is not effective at deterring bad behavior the public gets the worst of both worlds, that is, the public is no safer but has to deal with the added burden of the enforcement. I would point out that there is an old saying about how things that get measured get managed and a corollary to this is if you want to look at what is getting managed, look at what is getting measured. When it comes to speeding tickets, the state can't tell you how much enforcement produces how much reduction in average speeds or how many lives are saved but they can tell you to the penny how much revenue they have raised. Go figure! Some people are so determined to live in La La Land when confronted with reality and seem to think if they just wish it so loud enough, they can quite the rest of us. Won't work but I suppose might let them enjoy La La Land for just awhile longer!

Stuart Brown

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 1:23 a.m.

It is amusing the people who respond with moral umbrage to the notion that it is a bad idea to pass laws which criminalize certain behaviors that are routinely violated by large sections of the population. They spew self righteous indignation at the argument that people claim as a defense that many are doing it so why is the state picking on me? Well that IS and SHOULD BE a valid defense in certain situations. When it comes to the state laws on speed limits, it turns out the City of Ann Arbor was the law breaker, not the motorist exceeding the posted speed limit. The default speed for an improperly post speed limit is 55 MPH AS PER STATE LAW! The City of Ann Arbor for four years has refused to enforce this law and therefor has engaged in a conspiracy to deprive citizens in Ann Arbor their rights under state law! How come ghost and mick can't see this obvious inconsistency? You can't break the law in defense of the law!

Tom Wieder

Fri, Dec 17, 2010 : 11:49 p.m.

Speechless - You aren't paying attention. Based on huge volumes of research, posted speed limits DO NOT determine what the actual speeds are. You can put all the 25 mph and 35 mph signs you want on roads that most people feel comfortable driving 35 or 45, and they will drive 35 and 45. When there is concentrated enforcement, they may drive slower for a little while, but soon the higher speeds are resumed. The low speed limits do not get you what you want - lower speeds. All they do is catch a few drivers unlucky enough to be caught doing what almost everybody else does. The argument here is not about how fast people should drive; it's about what the speed limits should be, because there is very little relationship between the two. Numerous real-life, on-the-street studies have shown that raisng or lowering the posted speed limits as much as 15 or 20 mph does not change the actual average speed limit by more than 3 mph, and usually less. This has been demonstrated again recently in Ann Arbor. The state ordered limits to be raised on North Main Street, north of Depot, and on Washtenaw, east of Stadium. The average speed on these sections of road has not increased since then. This is measureable, scientific fact. Speed limits are not a form of "traffic calming," as you suggest, because they do not physically force drivers to slow down, as the speed bumps and other devices used for calming do. We get it - you don't like cars, speed and aggressive drivers. What you refuse to look at with an open mind os all the research tht shows that posted speed limits do not alter the things that you don't like.

Silly Sally

Fri, Dec 17, 2010 : 10:58 p.m.

@Speechless says, "With the bumps in place, tailgating has practically ceased, and it appears some of the former traffic has been 'driven' off. Is this kind of localized practice deeply offensive to the motorists association?" Broadway is mostly residential and should have a slow speed-limit of 25. Better to avoid kids and dogs. Societies should not want cars zipping through there. Build a better alternative, a 45 to 50 MPH stretch along Plymouth from Maiden Lane to the Shell station near the other end of Broadway, then 40 for the curves and then 45 to US 23. Teach UM students about the dangers of jaywalking, at night, wearing black, and restricting one's vision with scarfs. Ditto for EMU students about crossing busy streets at night in costumes. Then, teach Speechless to drive in the right lane with her golf cart. And please, please, don't go out driving when there is snow on the ground. There is no law that says that all roads such as Plymouth or Huron are reduced to only one lane with a speed limit of 20 MPH.

Speechless

Fri, Dec 17, 2010 : 10 p.m.

"... So, how would you set speed limits? Popular vote? City-wide?... are you confident an actual vote would go your way?" As in many things, my view likely does not conform to the feelings of the majority. Well, if the people of Ann Arbor choose to rise up and toss out the present mayor and city council due to moral outrage over current posted speed limits, then so be it. If the future then turns out to be a little bit more like Mad Max, and less like my hippie-dippie-punk-socialist-government-subsidized vision of bike paths, expanded sidewalks, HAWK signals, commuter rail, park & ride, hybrid buses of all sizes & shapes, night ride, zip cars, trolleys, roller blade aqueducts, you name it, so be it. (Speaking of 'government subsidized,' how 'bout a great big heapin' gas tax to jumpstart expansion for transit alternatives?) To the extent that speed limits in town have been posted below what the MSP would recommend, I see this — in effect — as an exercise in traffic calming. Generally, that's a very good thing, the occasional exception notwithstanding. There's less Oakland County craziness on our streets. In regard to local control, let me give a specific example off the top of my head. In town, speed bumps are present along at least a few streets. One set can be found on Broadway, a former important artery that's now reduced in daily usage. Since they must certainly slow down Broadway's traffic to well below any MSP guidance, should those bumps get promptly torn up? I can say from experience that prior to installation of this calming measure, I was routinely tailgated when driving up the Broadway hill at the posted limit of 25 mph. Drivers really, really wanted to buzz along at 35 mph or higher, and would do so when I wasn't 'blocking' them from in front. With the bumps in place, tailgating has practically ceased, and it appears some of the former traffic has been 'driven' off. Is this kind of localized practice deeply offensive to the motorists association? Does this constitute driver oppression? In any case, I'll be rooting on Monday for the Washtenaw Biking and Walking Coalition, even if the deck has been stacked against them beforehand.

Silly Sally

Fri, Dec 17, 2010 : 8:14 p.m.

@Speechless "To indulge in hyperbole for a moment and repeat a counterculture phrase from four decades ago, "Speed Kills."' Yes, it did when this counterculture phrase originated. Turn on, tune in, and drop out. Speed was a DRUG back then, not traffic speed. Unless the road is icy, speed doesn't kill, only mistakes. "Michigan drivers are among the fastest, most aggressive, least respectful, and least accommodating to non-drivers of any in the country." Making it a joy to drive here. If Michigan drivers "accommodated" drivers such as Speechless who want to stay in the left lane and block traffic, it might be encourage her more. She needs to go to Florida and drive slowly I love a bumper sticker that I saw in Florida, saying, "When I get old, I will go up north and drive slow" They must have had a retired Speechless in mind, still driving slowly in the left lane. @Speechless seems to believe that someone is aggressive if they dislike going 35 on a road designed for a much higher speed, that has no driveways and few intersecting roads, and little traffic. If people don't meekly accept the silliness of Huron Parkway's 35 mph (most parkways are 55)and the revenue generated by the AA Police. Most people, 85%, disagree with her speed views, yet she wants to be a dictator and slow everyone down. A smarter approach is to ask what can be done to allow people to go even faster and still do it safely. Get with the times, 35 was fast in 1923, but not today.

Speechless

Fri, Dec 17, 2010 : 6:49 p.m.

"... There's no reason we can't have higher speeds and safe bikers and safe pedestrians...." If you've spent time bicycling on paved roads, in town and/or out in the townships, you know that vehicle speed matters. If you've also spent time walking distances on sidwalks or asphalt pathways placed close to the roadway, speed does matter; you literally feel it. Faster traffic may move drivers around town a little quicker, but it brings down the overall quality of life in the community. The faster the traffic, the more that it takes over the outdoor public environment. Cities and suburbs become a collection of urban islands resting between rivers of steady, speedy traffic. Upping speed limits guarantees that roadway corridors become more hostile places to walk or bike and, for that matter, to park your car or turn into a driveway. Public spaces or common areas along the way will seem more isolated when speeds rise, as fewer will want to walk or bike to them. Even when not necessarily more dangerous, it's not pleasant to be in the close vicinity of cars traveling 40-50 mph. At such speeds, they can dominate the urban experience, at the expense of other activities and modes of travel. To indulge in hyperbole for a moment and repeat a counterculture phrase from four decades ago, "Speed Kills." "... What we should do is clarify and enforce pedestrian and car rights at crosswalks... keep building bike lanes and making them wide and safe enough to be used, and target and punish aggressive driving behaviors instead of speed violations...." Here we almost fully agree. Yes, make changes in the culture of the roadway by enforcing pedestrian crosswalk rights, developing wide bike lanes, and making a real crackdown on testosterone poisoning behind the wheel. For the most part, these things can be handled separately from decisions over keeping and changing speed limits. Except in the case of a true speed trap (see one of Ghost's comments way above), speeding violations are typically reflect aggressive behavior. I'm not saying Ann Arbor doesn't have one or more of those, but this town is not a "border-to-border speed trap."

AlphaAlpha

Fri, Dec 17, 2010 : 6:16 p.m.

Thankfully, driving today is safer than ever, as reflected in NHTSA's traffic safety statistics, especially in terms of incidents per million miles. The trend has been steadily down for about 100 years now, even with increased speed limits. Quite an impressive accomplishment, really. A testament to increased driver ability, improved automotive design, traffic safety related civil engineering advancements, reductions in impaired driving, etc.

Mick52

Fri, Dec 17, 2010 : 4:46 p.m.

The argument is founded on that since people violate the law we might as well make it legal. I see no basis that this will improve safety, and no, I do not put stock in MSP's opinion on this. It's a local issue. I would be more likely to support AAPD's position on the matter. I worked a whole career in LE and know first hand how people drive. I also know a car traveling 40 will do a lot more damage than a car going 30 and will stop in less space. It's not worth the risk to change this. I am surprised that the fed hasn't insisted on lower speed limits with its concern over carbon emissions. What they are doing is putting the burden on manufacturers to make their line of cars compliant with CAFE standards with no restrictions on the drivers. Its not working and to lower CO emissions they are going to have to change the habits of the public. I am becoming more in favor of the camera and automatic ticket mode of issuing traffic violations because violations are so out of control. I will agree to this idea if it includes that provision for enforcement of all vehicles over the limit.

Tom Wieder

Fri, Dec 17, 2010 : 3:56 p.m.

Speechless- So, how would you set speed limits? Popular vote? City-wide? Neighbors who live within so many feet of the road? What? You provide lots of rhetoric about aggressiveness and pathology and livability, but I don't see any logical approach to setting appropriate speed limits. Do you have the slightest bit of evidence that safe drivers, pedestrians, families, etc. are better served by the current POSTED limits (not the actual speeds) than the limits in the statute? Are you sure you want the limits set locally and democratically? Look at the poll results in the survey accompanying this article. 84% support raising limits. Sure, it's unscientific, but are you confident an actual vote would go your way?

bearlab

Fri, Dec 17, 2010 : 2:24 p.m.

For Mr. Walker. You said "The speeds on Washtenaw are identical to the ones before the posted limits changed. " Does this include the average speed or are you strictly talking about the 85% speed? Thank you

loves_fall

Fri, Dec 17, 2010 : 1:01 p.m.

I think one issue a lot of people here are bringing up is some kind of assumed relationship between speed and goodness of driving. If we lower speeds, people will be less likely to strike pedestrians. If we lower speeds, people will share the road better with bikers. If we lower speeds, people won't tailgate and everything will be happy. Not true. There's no reason we can't have higher speeds and safe bikers and safe pedestrians and less road rage. If we want to achieve that though, we shouldn't try to legislate good driving through speed control. They just aren't related. What we should do is clarify and enforce pedestrian and car rights at crosswalks (I've noticed that even with the new legislation, a lot of peds won't cross and try to wave people by if they stop.), keep building bike lanes and making them wide and safe enough to be used, and target and punish aggressive driving behaviors instead of speed violations. I know we have radar guns and they make traffic enforcement so easy, but having the tools to detect crime doesn't mean we're really detecting the right things if our aim is to make a safer road. If we don't start separating the issues and thinking outside the box on how to get behaviors changed, we're going to see the same kinds of accidents regardless of what the speed limits are. At least giving people a reasonable, fair speed limit gives them one less thing to be grumpy about and ignore.

Speechless

Fri, Dec 17, 2010 : 12:53 p.m.

Tom Wieder:  "...The prime advocate for the state law which would force A2 to raise those limits was and is the Michigan State Police, based on their knowledge about and experience with the relationship between posted speed limits and safety. Don't you think that the MSP is a pretty good source of correct decision-making on the setting of speed limits...." No, I most definitely do not. The MSP deals with law enforcement, not the overall livability of urban environments. That's a social decision to be made democratically by a community, not determined unilaterally by top police officials. Hopefully our city council has enough intelligence not to rubber stamp MSP opinions. By virtue of how the do much of their work, the MSP is necessarily car-centric; I'd love to see them try doing bicycle patrols, pedaling in the right lane on Washtenaw, Huron or Plymouth. Enjoy! Michigan drivers are among the fastest, most aggressive, least respectful, and least accomodating to non-drivers of any in the country. Go to nearby Wisconsin, and the increase in everyday driver courtesy can be obvious. Again, when all is said and done, raising speed limits is all about enabling a higher level of pathology on streets and roads. The losers are safer drivers, pedestrians, bicyclists, and families — who, when outdoors, have to retreat even further from roadways in the interests of child safety. And if, one day soon, drivers should gain the freedom to push the gas pedal up to 40 when cruising down Newport, please watch out for deer, since it's not entirely clear they've all read up on that 85th percentile thing. Give out brochures, maybe? To actually take the time and make the effort to force an increase in posted limits, to my mind, blends Koch-style libertarianism with the predominanty male inclination (found across the political spectrum) to display narcissism and aggression along public throroughfares. Belligerent motoring fills a role for people that's similar to when a male dog lifts its leg to mark territory. Silly Sally:  "... Tailgating is dangerous. But why does 'Speechless' want to not get out of the way?..." Drive up & over the curb and onto the sidewalk just for you?  Why, anytime!

loves_fall

Fri, Dec 17, 2010 : 12:51 p.m.

I had a prolonged conversation with the AAPD after their officer parked down the street for two days ticketing people nonstop in an area where tickets have successfully been dismissed per DetNews. I wanted to know why they were wasting my tax dollars writing tickets that wouldn't stick if challenged. They informed me that I obviously haven't seen that high speeds cause accidents and that they were only looking for people going more than 5 mph over the limit. So, apparently 36 mph kills.

Silly Sally

Fri, Dec 17, 2010 : 12:48 p.m.

@ToddAustin thinks that "Washtenaw has become a speedway, after the recent ill-advised increases to the speed limit there." Give this guy a hat to wear. Maybe a golf cart. The only speedway around here is the Michigan International Speedway. Even if the limits on I-94 were raised to 90 or 100, they would not be "speedways" Ever been to Germany? Smooth, very safe, and speeds of over 200 km/hr, (125 MPH) 45 MPH on Washtenaw is fast? Oh, no. Another control freak. Everyone goes 45 or 50, except the occasional Mr. Austin who impede the smooth flow of traffic. Washtenaw has a low accident rate and heavy traffic. Any accidents could be caused by people going around Mr. Austin.

engGEEK1988

Fri, Dec 17, 2010 : 12:25 p.m.

What is the rationale for having "I don't know" as a choice in a poll? It's a serious question. I don't understand why it would be offered as a choice for an answer, and even more puzzling is why anyone would bother to participate in a poll if they don't even know what their stance is on the matter...

Jim Walker

Fri, Dec 17, 2010 : 12:07 p.m.

For ToddAustin: The speeds on Washtenaw are identical to the ones before the posted limits changed. That is the whole point, the numbers on the signs have little or no relationship with actual traffic speeds. The 85th percentile speeds on the outer section of Washtenaw approaching Stadium were 48 mph in 1995 when posted at 35 mph. They have been in the range of 45 to 48 mph since, posted both 35 and 45, with the most common number being 47 mph. The speeds on the inner section now 40, formerly 30, are similarly unchanged. The only thing that changed is that these areas are no longer speed traps. James C. Walker NMA

ToddAustin

Fri, Dec 17, 2010 : 11:42 a.m.

Here's another option for your poll: * No, the speed limits in town are frequently too high as it is. As an example, Washtenaw has become a speedway, after the recent ill-advised increases to the speed limit there. Why don't people try leaving a bit earlier, instead of endangering everyone on or near the roads in their mad dash to go somewhere?

Silly Sally

Fri, Dec 17, 2010 : 11:16 a.m.

Another dog, this one a Sunnydog09 says, "Seriously. Pay attention. Slow down. Obey the speed limits" Why does this control-dog want to regulate us so? Why should we meekly obey a silly speed limit such as 35 MPH on Huron? Changing silly laws makes sense. As far as @insightman talking about how slower saves gas - this is only true for speeds above 45 or 50, and then only a small amount. But our time, at least mine, is worth much more than the small amount of gas saved. I always coast up to a red light, but if a jackrabbit start uses more gas,. I consider it a recreation expense, well worth it. Pass those nuts who go from 0 to 60 in 60 seconds.

AlphaAlpha

Fri, Dec 17, 2010 : 9:59 a.m.

Mr. Horwedel - Thank you so much for extending the common courtesy of a response. It is very commendable of you to share these photographic details, as well. 1/15 sec! That suggests the cars were traveling under the speed limit. 1/75 sec is based on an estimated blur length of 2/3 of a foot (~ one tire radius), 2/3 foot is traveled in 1/77 sec at 35 mph (= 51fps). 1/75 would be the closest common shutter speed. 1/15 is quite a surprise. A dog's wagging tail will blur at that speed... Was the photo 'trickery' appropriate? The human eye is designed to not see the blur. Photographs in general are taken to avoid seeing motion related blur. When blur is visible, it generally connotes very substantial speed. Does 35 mph qualify as very substantial speed? Most believe not. Those opposing higher speed limits would want to paint current speeds as high; adding blur is an easy and effective way to assert speeds are too high. Again, thank you for your response.

AlphaAlpha

Fri, Dec 17, 2010 : 9:32 a.m.

"Looking back, it seems virtually everyone obeyed 55 mph on interstates." Evidently the sarcasm was not quite obvious... 55 was advocated by one Richard Nixon as a 'response' to the OPEC oil embargo; the Watergate tapes include discussion of his desire to divert attention from Watergate & how lower speed limits would create much 'helpful' controversy. It took nearly twenty years of civil disobedience to undo Nixon's folly. It can save gas; it does cost time. It's a trade. It's OK to be pro-choice on this issue, as well.

Lon Horwedel

Fri, Dec 17, 2010 : 9:25 a.m.

@Alpha Alpha, Ahh yes, you're on to my evil agenda of trying to create motion in a photograph that deals with a story about speed limits. Unfortunately, there is no 1/75 of a second shutter speed (at least not on my camera) maybe 1/60, 1/90, or even 1/125th, but those shutter speeds would be way too fast for me to pull off my dastardly plot of trying and show motion in something that is actually moving. I had to go all the way down to 1/15 of a second! Hard to do in the daytime, so I had to lower my ISO/ASA to a very low setting of 50. But wait... cars are in motion, so am I really deceiving the public by showing something that moves to actually be moving? Wouldn't it be more deceptive if I, for example, photographed a car traveling at 60 mph at 1/1000 of a second shutter speed, thereby making the car appear to be parked in the middle of the street? If I shot this picture with a point and shoot, or my cell phone camera, and the camera chose a shutter speed too slow to freeze motion, would it even be an issue? Hmmm.... it's a quandary, I know, but one worth considering.

SonnyDog09

Fri, Dec 17, 2010 : 8:32 a.m.

I am waiting to see the resolution that the Phoenix City Council passes before I make up my mind on this issue. Seriously. Pay attention. Slow down. Obey the speed limits. Hang up and drive.

Jim Walker

Fri, Dec 17, 2010 : 1:22 a.m.

One thought for the pedestrians and bikes. And, yes, I walked and rode a bike a lot in Ann Arbor in the 1960s when I moved here. On road X the 85th percentile speed is 40. About 75% of the traffic will be between 31 and 40 mph (the 10 mph band with the most vehicles called the Pace, the normal flow of most of the traffic). 15% will be at 41 and above (with very few above 44 or 45). Only about 10% will be at 30 or below. You are on a bike or walking and are about to cross road X. Is it safer for you to have the speed limit signs say 40 to truthfully inform you what to expect for the speeds of cross traffic? Or do you want the signs to lie to you and falsely tell you to expect most of the traffic to be coming at the slower rate of 30 mph or below? The ACTUAL speeds of traffic at the upper end won't be any different if you post the road at 35 or 30 or 25 -- the 85th percentile speed will still be 40 (maybe +/- one mph). I mean the above as a real question to ponder, which do you want - truth or lies from the signs? This is the hardest principle to teach about the science. ACTUAL speeds at the upper end of the range do not change enough to matter when speed limits are raised and lowered. What changes with 85th percentile limits is the flow is smoother and more uniform, and thus safer and more predictable. Note also that drivers DO see the high pedestrian and bike traffic on Ann Arbor's streets and they have already taken them into account with the choice of travel speeds. If you try to say the limit needs to be arbitrarily lower than the 85th percentile speed because bikes and pedestrians are present, that is artificially counting that factor twice and all it will do is increase speed variance and accident risks for everyone. There are only two ways to reduce the actual traffic speeds. You can use traffic calming like speed bumps, but that is not appropriate for main roads. Or, you can have something pretty close to 24/7 enforcement, something no city can afford on all their main roads. That is the reality as proven by researchers over a period of 70 years. Set 85th percentile limits and you get the best safety and the smoothest traffic flow. The Michigan State Police are not crazy homicidal monsters seeking to have lots more accidents and more dead people to scrape up. They know how to do this in the best way and the city would be well advised to follow their example. James C. Walker NMA

Insightman

Fri, Dec 17, 2010 : 12:42 a.m.

One fact that cannot be denied is that slower speeds save gas. I used to be a speed demon, but when I got my Honda Insight hybrid car in 2000 the instantaneous gas mileage readout made all the difference. It was tough but I learned to get my kicks from increasing the gas mileage. The biggest kick is getting 70 mpg with a line of traffic behind me as I pass a hidden radar cop. I always wonder if those irate drivers cursing my driving suddenly realize that I just saved them a lot of money (not to mention their gas savings from driving at the current low speed limits). Probably not.

Tom Wieder

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 11:28 p.m.

Most of the critics of raising SOME (not all) limits in A2 are missing two key points. The prime advocate for the state law which would force A2 to raise those limits was and is the Michigan State Police, based on their knowledge about and experience with the relationship between posted speed limits and safety. Don't you think that the MSP is a pretty good source of correct decision-making on the setting of speed limits? If you're not sure, wouldn't you like to have more information about their approach before condemning the idea? Or do you think they're either stupid or have some ulterior motive for advocating this position? Jim Walker didn't get this law passed, the MSP did! Second, if posting lower limits actually produced lower speeds, opposing the higher limits might make sense, but that's really not what happens. What all the traffic science says - and the MSP agrees with this - the posted limits have very little effect on how fast people drive. Lower posted speeds than people naturally tend to drive on a street have little or no efffect in reducing the average travel speed. They don't produce greater safety, because almost no one obeys them! They have no practical effect. The only thing they do is allow the ticketing of a small number of the vast majority of drivers who ignore the signs. In some instances, actual speeds may affect safety, but signs, and enforcement, which don't control actual speeds, do nothing to affect safety.

Silly Sally

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 10:30 p.m.

AlphaAlpha dog says, "Looking back, it seems virtually everyone obeyed 55 mph on interstates." Where were you living? In New Jersey, where that 55 MPH nonsense originated, spreading due to their Congressman who was a control freak. It made a mockery of the law, as most ignored it. @"Speechless" thinks that all speeders tailgate. One doesn't follow the other. Tailgating is dangerous. But why does "Speechless" want to not get out of the way? Yea, I might be late and who are you to slow me down with silly 35 MPH laws in areas where it should be 45 or 50? Lets adopt Montana's safe and prudent law that they had for their highways.

stunhsif

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 10:27 p.m.

Ryan J. Stanton said: "I just heard from the Washtenaw Biking and Walking Coalition. They apparently were caught off-guard by this move and are planning to speak to the issue at Monday's council meeting now. The fear is that higher speeds could mean higher pedestrian death rates." If bicycle riders had their way, they would post speed limits so cars could go no faster than they go. I gave up motorcylces in 1987 when my first son was born after numerous close calls, several times getting run off the road. Also gave up bicycling on paved ( well traveled roads) about the same time because of similar incidents. I now ride a trail bike on dirt roads ( with little automotive traffic) and walk on same roads. To expect cars to travel 35 mph on Huron Parkway between Geddes and Washtenaw is ridulous but we all know that the police are pressured to write tickets to bring in money because of the cities financial position.

AlphaAlpha

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 9:38 p.m.

Looking back, it seems virtually everyone obeyed 55 mph on interstates. It's amazing the limit was changed back to 70. Why ever did that happen?

a2baggagehandler

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 9:04 p.m.

more tea party hyperbole

AlphaAlpha

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 8:37 p.m.

The photo of cars 'zooming' is impressive...it appears photographer Lon Horwedel may have an agenda. Simple science says that in order to create the image of cars 'zooming' (another agenda-inspired word?), the camera shutter speed was an unusually slow 1/75th of a second. The physics are irrefutable. Typical shutter speeds are several times faster, generally 1/250 to 1/1000 second. The problem is, a typical shutter speed would not have 'added drama' to the image. So, fake it. Most people won't notice... For shame, Lon Horwedel. AnnArbor.com deserves truth in images...less agenda, and more facts, will serve the community much more appropriately.

Speechless

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 8:27 p.m.

"... He claims Ann Arbor has been a "border-to-border speed trap" for at least five decades...." This statement exudes hyperbole to such a high degree that it becomes straightforwardly false. By comparison, it requires much less hyperbole — less stretching of the truth — to state that hiking up speed limits all over town will create a "border-to-border death trap" for pedestrians and bicyclists. While raising Huron Parkway from 35 to 40 makes some sense, doing this most anywhere else in town offers little benefit to anyone, except for the obsessively impatient. What exactly is your hurry? Are you going to be late? Meanwhile, the mild speed decrease not that many years ago on Plymouth, in response to the accidental killing of two pedestrians, has made that major artery somewhat safer for the seniors and international students (with small children) who cross it along that same stretch on a regular basis. The Plymouth corridor has become more livable, and less of a semi-freeway. I like Linda's carrot-and-stick approach. Hold off on any limit increases until such time as local drivers show a very significant improvement in their capacity to respect crosswalks, HAWK signals, bike lanes, and stop signs. Drivers in other states can handle this, so why can't Michigan grow up, too? I have precious little respect for speeders, especially since a percentage of them will frequently tailgate and occasionally even exhibit signs of road rage when drivers like myself insist on traveling along streets and highways at the posted speed limit. I'm disappointed that Tom Wieder chooses to fall on the wrong side of this issue, helping to enable pathological driving — please listen to 'Ghost' up above.

sbbuilder

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 7:59 p.m.

A very simple test can be made to validate, or invalidate the notion of speed traps. The purpose of a set speed limit is for safety, and nothing else. So, the question, or test, would be: Are there more, less, or the same number of corresponding accidents at these speed traps? Sorry, Mick52, but when the speed limit is raised to a reasonable level, traffic unaccountably does not go any faster. In some cases, it actually decreases. Do the research yourself, and you'll see what I and others are saying is correct. Again, the speed limit on Washtenaw was raised a whole ten MPH in places. This was mandated, much to the chagrin of City Council, by the State. Are there more accidents along the sections that saw raised speed limits? Absolutely not. Are motorists taking advantage of the raised speed limit to go even faster than before. Absolutely not. Then why should the situation be different elsewhere? Ghost: I disagree, again, with your post. Some laws are capricious. Municipalities across the globe know this, and set limits that are unreasonable in order to make money. I've driven in about fifty countries, and can attest to this. Some questions for you: Do you come to a complete stop at every intersection with a stop sign? Not rolling, or slowed way down, but completely stopped? Do you ever travel one mile per hour over the limit? I would bet a dollar to a hole in a donut that you trespass on some motor vehicle law daily. Perhaps not intentionally, or conciously, but none the less you most likely break the law. If you were followed by a cop, sooner or later you would transgress. What we are asking for is reasonable limits, reasonable laws.

Sallyxyz

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 7:21 p.m.

The section of the Huron Parkway from Washtenaw to Geddes is in fact a speed trap at 35 mph. Compare that stretch of road of many others which are 2 narrow lanes, with many curves and entrances and exits along the way. Look at the stretch of Fuller Rd from the Huron Parkway going west, for example. It's a narrow 2-lane roadway that has a 40 mph speed limit, along with the entrance to Gallup Park (cars pulling in and out all summer) and numerous residential driveways, as well as a hilly terrain. So, why is it OK for that stretch to be 40 mph and the wide, 4-lane parkway section from Geddes/Fuller south to Washtenaw only 35 mph? It's a speed trap with a police vehicle often parked just around the bend on the southbound lane about 1/4 mile north of Washtenaw.....picking off unsuspecting drivers. That's the only reason that speed limit is so low, in my view. Why is it ok to have a 40 mph speed limit on the parkway north of Geddes/Fuller to Plymouth Rd, yet a 35 mph speed limit south of Geddes/Fuller to Washtenaw. It's the same wide, 4-lane roadway. There are many other examples around town where the speed limits are 40 and 45 on much busier roads, with more traffic entering and exiting along the way. Look at Washtenaw Ave, for example, from Trader Joe's all the way east to the Huron Parkway intersection. Most of that section of roadway has a 45 mph speed limit in spite of all the congestion, and entering and exiting traffic. Raise the Parkway to 45 the entire length from Plymouth Rd south to Washtenaw.

Are you serious?

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 6:29 p.m.

I'd like to see some numbers on what percentage of bicyclists run red lights and stop signs compared to motorists or motorcyclists. I'd bet the bicyclists out number motorists and motorcyclists by 10 to 1. Until such time as bicyclists start obeying the traffic laws at least as well as everyone else then they need to stop complaining. BTW anybody who thinks motorcycles run red lights and stop signs more than cars do is just plain wrong in my experience. Any motorcyclist knows that idiots running red lights and stop signs are one of the greatest dangers on the road.

BobbyJohn

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 6:25 p.m.

Thank You Jim Walker for your efforts. I remeber when the speed limit on Newport went up to 45 some years ago, and while that may have been too high because I don't see many people going that fast, Certainly most people go 35-40 on Newport. Now, if we can get Washtenaw County to reduce the deer population, we can save a lot of lives and cars.

Are you serious?

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 6:25 p.m.

Everybody has an opinion but there are only so many who will believe the research. If you believe the research most people will drive at a safe and sane speed. (There are of course those crazies who ignore all speed limits and will not pay any attention to any speed limit.) The research supports the proposition that raising speed limits does not increase the number of accidents - it merely results in fewer speeding tickets and less revenue for the municipality.

Somewhat Concerned

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 6:18 p.m.

The bicycle and walker interest group would have more credibility and clout if they were as concerned with bicyclists and pedestrians obeying the law and showing a bit of common sense rather than cruising through intersections without obeying signs or lights. People who bicycle and walk are saving energy and reducing pollution, but that doesn't grant them immunity from the laws or from acting responsibly. From my experience, they are somewhat worse, as a group, than motor vehicle drivers (other than motorcyclists and drunk students).

ktalley

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 5:55 p.m.

@jim walker: i looked at the materials at www.michigan.gov/speedlimits. i noticed that in the booklet that you recommended as being more complete, not one image depicted the roads as being used by anything but cars. a search for "pedestrian" or "bicycle" yielded no results. here's a quote:"It is important to encourage smooth traffic flow, not only for safety, but for the convenience and economy of every motorist." it's not even clear whether the "Traffic Crash Data" it cites includes any crash types besides those between cars. Can you see why those of us who do not always use cars for transportation might remain skeptical about this approach? Can you direct us to materials indicating that our needs and safety are also being considered?

Mick52

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 5:29 p.m.

I'm with Ghost on this one. Just follow the law. Relax, don't be in such a hurry. Sorry I did not get through all 65 posts but about one half way through I did not see anyone note the fuel saving and ecology benefit of burning up less gas. What's up with that? I thought A2 was a "green" town. Okay, here is some news in regard to speed traps and ticket revenue. Increasing speeds will not change a thing. Your "traps" will still be there and you will still get your tickets. That is because no matter what the limit is, drivers violate it. If its 25 or 35 the number of speeders will not decrease. I often drive in areas where the speed limit is 50, like on N Territorial and cars, trucks, almost always zoom past when I am going 50, which I think is way too fast for a two lane road. I lean toward the safety side of it, collisions of less speed don't hurt as much as slow ones. I am against this, I think it will lead to worse injuries and property damage and not safer streets. MSP really booted the pooch on this one. City speed limits are city business. Raising the limit will not guarantee that people will drive only up to the increased limit. It's folly to think so. I doubt the speeders on Huron Parkway are only going 5 or 10 mph over the limit, so at 40 or 45 there will still be speeding. Suppose the speed limit on Huron Parkway goes up to 45 and you are breezing through at 50, only 5 over. Too fast. I hope you get a ticket for only five over. Because that is too fast for a city street. At lower speeds a 5 over biscuit is wrong. Well, I never did it when I was citing bad drivers. I bicycle too (I always obey traffic laws) and prefer to be hit by slow drivers (been there, done that). I would like to see a lot more enforcement on bicyclists. You can follow one bike through downtown and get your ticket quota in the time it takes for a bike to go from State to First St.

Bob W

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 5:26 p.m.

"1) I have lived in A2 for nearly 30 years. 2) I have driven these "speed trap" roads frequently, Huron Pkway on an almost daily basis. 3) I frequently exceed the speed limit on them by 5-10 mph 4) I have never received a ticket on any of them 5) Were I to be ticketed the only person I could blame is... me!! I was knowingly exceeding the speed limit. 6) If you don't want to contribute money to the city of Ann Arbor, follow the law 7) It strikes me that several posters on this discussion who, in other discussions, are big on "personal responsibility", aparently shun all responsility when it comes to following the speed limits. 8) The logic of rasing speed limits is bizarre. Because many people violate the law, we will change the law to validate their violations. Wonder why that logic doesn't apply to the legalization of Marijuana?" Couldn't agree more and I have lived in A2 since 1968. Stop whining, take two deep breaths and slow down if your getting tickets.

C. S. Gass

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 5:21 p.m.

Speed limits, given the technical and safety advancements in crash avoidance and survivability, are artificially low. The speed limits in Ann Arbor are ridiculously low. Speeding tickets, and traffic tickets in general are a poor way to raise revenue. Even if the A2 City government raises the speed limit, I hope the lawsuit continues. If for no other reason than to deny A2 the ill-gotten gains from the many improperly issued citations. A city that issues citations, guised as safety enforcement, so they can make money off of their own populace is wrong.

jcj

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 5:13 p.m.

"One is conducting traffic studies and setting the limit at the 85th percentile speed of free-flowing traffic in other words, the speed at which 85 percent of motorists travel." With this kind of logic the speed limit on I-94 should be raised to 80! ERMG I agree again. Whole Heartedly. I have been driving for 45 years and have gotten 3 speeding tickets. Not once did I blame someone else for my mistake. Do I speed? Yes. But Like ERMG if I get caught its npo bodies fault but mine. There are isolated streets where the speed limit could be raised. BUT to raise the speed limit across the board as some would have us do is beyond stupid. The ones so vigorously in favor of raising the speed limit tend to be the lazy ones that can't get out of the house on time! Plain and simple.

Are you serious?

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 4:54 p.m.

The problem with the vehicle access point issue is when do you start counting and how far does that limit apply? If there are X access points in a mile, and then none for the next mile what should the speed limit be? Makes no sense to change the speed limit every time the number of access points changes. The formula makes no sense as written and is unenforceable.

Brad

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 4:42 p.m.

They'll probably raise the limits and then pave the roads with speed bumps. That's the general mentality of Ann Arbor's "traffic engineering". Automobiles are just a nusiance to be slowed down.

Mike

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 4:30 p.m.

And while they are at it they should fix Stadium Boulevard so two lanes of traffic can drive between Seventh and Pauline again. Who ever can up with such a ridiculus way to bottleneck traffic especially in a town that has a footbal stadium that holds over 100,000 people who drive into town that way? Maybe they should tear down the additions they just put on the Big House and reduce the traffic in the area, as well as all of those potent CO2 emmissions coming from all of those people at the games. "Traffic calming" is what I believe they call what they did on Stadium. How calming is it when you are forced to merge during heavy traffic volume only to go back to two lanes at the next light? I'd call that frustrating, not calming. I thought traffic engineers were supposed to avoid situations like that by designing for smoother traffic flow, less stop and go, less emmissions.....gasp. They'll probaby park a police officer to give out tickets for improper merging soon.

CincoDeMayo

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 4:20 p.m.

I see you (and others) moving slowly (35-40) with me on Huron Parkway north of Washtenaw. It is rare to see anyone who doesn't know about this trap - or at least slowing down because everybody else is.

Mike

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 4:16 p.m.

Great reporting, this is the kind of reporting that serves the readers well and could improve your readership. There are numerous areas that are speed traps around town which ruin peoples driving records and increase their insurance rates. Parking and trafic violations combine to provide millions of dollars a year to the city's coffers, money that could be spent in business establishments in town. I live just outside of town and avoid going into town like the plague. Having to pay for parking and avoiding speed traps are two big reasons to have dinner or go shopping in Brighton, Dexter, or Chelsea. Raise the speed limits and you may find you actually raise more revenue by increasing the appeal of driving into and through Ann Arbor. The "progressive" mindset is that raising fees, penalties, and taxes will generate more revenue while the reality is we all still have a choice, for now, to avoid areas that are punitive to our wallets.

C6

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 4:13 p.m.

@Jim Osborn: I believe you're wrong if you think the raising of the speed limit on M-14 has resulted in traffic there moving any faster. Almost everyone was going 65, even when the limit was set at 55. So it shouldn't be any harder to get on headed east from Barton Drive now, than it was before. I can tell you too, that if you have a car that will go from zero to sixty in 4.2 seconds, you go looking for places to occasionally do just that. Otherwise it might be smart to detour and get on from North Main Street so you have a chance to get yourself up to speed and merge. Maybe we should get that Barton Drive ramp marked for use by performance cars only.

Silly Sally

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 4:11 p.m.

Ryan J. Stanton said this about the Washtenaw Biking and Walking Coalition. They... are planning to speak to the issue at Monday's council meeting now. The fear is that higher speeds could mean higher pedestrian death rates." All bicyclists should obey the traffic laws, use lights at night, and if the county would pave wider shoulders on roads such as Huron River Drive. These things would do more for safety than slow speed limits. UM needs to teach freshman how to cross a street, just as first graders need to be taught. Don't step in front of a car mid block at night while wearing dark clothing. Ditto for when the sun is in a driver's eyes. I stop for those that I see, but some may be missed. The new crosswalk law is silly, how is a driver to know if a walker is turning and going to cross a street, or going to turn and continue on the sidewalk. That law has gone too far.

Stephen Landes

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 4:05 p.m.

Ryan Stanton -- I hope the biking and walking coalition will embrace existing regulations like stop signs and signaling to turn. It seems that every time I drive in A2 I have bicycles cruising through stop signs, passing cars on the right, etc. If I am turning right and some cyclist comes up along side they are in serious danger. It's almost as bad as California where it is legal for motorcycles to ride down the line between lanes!

C6

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 3:54 p.m.

Those of you who think Ann Arbor's non-complying speed limits are just fine don't actually drive, do you? I think that because although I don't like or agree with the ridiculously low posted limits like the 35 mile per hour one on Huron Parkway, I'll always drive at those speeds because, well..., that's the law. But when I do, I NEVER see anyone else driving as slow as me in these areas. You can't all be liars and hypocrites, and since I don't see you out there on the streets and roads moving slowly along with me, then I can only presume that you don't drive. Well you don't, do you?

KJMClark

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 3:49 p.m.

There's a very good document at the State Police website about speed limits and how the are, or should be set: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/Establishing_Realistic_Speedlimits_85625_7.pdf The problem with the way the NMA would like to set them is that the speed study is supposed to include all road users, but they usually ignore bicyclists and throw out anomaly speeds, and the analysis is supposed to take into account crash history and the driving environment. The NMA would ignore everything but the 85th percentile speed, assuming that motorists take the rest of that into account. But studies on driver aggression have pointed out that our area has one of the more aggressive driver populations in the country. Aggressive drivers tend to ignore the surrounding context and drive as fast as they can, assuming others will get out of their way. ("What's the speed limit in Michigan? Add 10 to whatever the sign says.") If you have a high percentage of aggressive drivers, which we do, you'll end up with speeds that are dangerously fast for the conditions. The problem with Huron Parkway is that it has a lot of blind hills and curves. When I bike in that area, it's not uncommon to have some lead foot trying to pass everyone else on the right, who has to slam on his/her brakes when they crest the hill and see a cyclist in the right lane. I've seen other people trying to drive fast there in the winter and end up careening across three lanes because they found some ice on one of the many curves. Council should do whatever it takes to allow our local engineers to use good judgment when setting speed limits, and not just reward dangerous drivers by raising limits.

Jim Osborn

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 3:48 p.m.

M-14 near Main street and Barton is more dangerous since traffic sometimes stops and cannot be seen due to the curve. Winter ice only exacerbated this bad situation. Then, traffic must enter M-14 from Barton from a dead stop, and then accelerate up hill. My car has no trouble, but when I owned a Ford Escort, it did. That extra 10 or 15 MPH makes a difference. It is more dangerous to enter east bound M-14 from Barton as traffic speeds increase. It is safer to go 80 on I-94 than to go 60 on that portion of M-14. I've seen accidents happen along there, especially in winter. Jim Walker asked, "M-14, no one has ever explained to me why posting 65 instead of 55 at that area made it harder to get on the road when the actual travel speeds did not change" If the speeds are the same, then of course it is not any easier or harder. If 55 were the posted speed and the AA Police made enforcement a regular habit that all can see a safer 55 MPH would be obeyed. The officers could be pulled from Huron and other places with low speed limits to staff real safety areas. Just as most drivers do not like a reduced speed by a school, strict enforcement in this limited area makes most comply. Doing so in normal areas, such as Huron north of Washtenaw, breeds contempt for the law and is poor policy.

Olan Owen Barnes

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 3:47 p.m.

"Ed Morrow's Ghost" says "The logic of rasing [sic] speed limits is bizarre. Because many people violate the law, we will change the law to validate their violations." Somehow Ed forgets that there is a state law that superceads the city ordnance and if the city violates the state law they leave themselves up for a costly court fight - that they will lose.

DeeDee

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 3:30 p.m.

Maybe they could spend the time that is saved on writing speeding tickets doing something about the FAR FAR more dangerous epidemic red light running in this town! Oh, and could Mr. Walker do residents all over SE MI a favor and take the City of Romulus to court about their massively lucrative speed trap on the Eureka Rd exit from Metro Airport?

Ashley Weigel

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 3:28 p.m.

Huron Parkway past AA Huron should have a higher speed limit!

Ryan J. Stanton

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 3:21 p.m.

I just heard from the Washtenaw Biking and Walking Coalition. They apparently were caught off-guard by this move and are planning to speak to the issue at Monday's council meeting now. The fear is that higher speeds could mean higher pedestrian death rates.

Jaime

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 3:16 p.m.

A lot of this is culmination from a few individuals who fought the illegal speed limits set by Ann Arbor. The law says they have to use one or the other of the codes. One code sets the speed limit at the 85 percentile and the other use the number of entry points. All I can say it is about time. Especially in places like Huron Parkway.

Barb

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 3:10 p.m.

@Ghost's posts are so right. This is an insane idea in a town where so many people ride bikes and are pedestrians. We should not validate the rule breakers. Slow the heck down. You'll be saving gas and lives. I'm amazed at how many people think it's their right to drive fast and the police who give them tickets are just trying to drum up revenue. Simple solution to that: stop getting tickets.

Joel Batterman

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 2:46 p.m.

Silly Sally, it's sad that you would blame the two young women killed crossing Plymouth Road in 2003 for their own deaths. Like anyone else, they were just trying to get from one place to another. It wasn't their fault that the City hadn't provided safe crossing facilities. You might as well blame the people killed in the Twin Cities bridge collapse a few years ago.

newsboy

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 2:38 p.m.

It would be so much more beneficial, for city officers to pull people over and give them coupons. The coupons would give significant discounts to motorists for down town restaurants and shops. The coupons would only be valid form 10am to 5pm while most shops are still open. This would drive patronage and revenue up for the citys coiffures, and give Ann Arbor better name with the traveling public. With individuals feeling less threatened about traffic officers and Ann Arbor, speed rates would decrease. This commuting utopia would drive down road-rage and the need to race out of town,as if your life depended upon it!

Killroy

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 2:34 p.m.

@ Jake C, which is why I ignore the signage and follow the car in front of me.

Ryan J. Stanton

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 2:26 p.m.

The city's speed limit map: http://www.a2gov.org/government/publicservices/project_management/Documents/City%20of%20Ann%20Arbor%20Speed%20Limits%20Map%20November%202009.pdf

Jim Walker

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 2:22 p.m.

For those that are skeptical on 85th percentile methodology, please see www.michigan.gov/speedlimits and download the Michigan State Police booklet "Establishing Realistic Speed Limits" (booklet is much more complete than the smaller pamphlet). This is written by the State Police Department responsible for increasing traffic safety in Michigan and the two top officers got a Governor's Traffic Safety Advisory Commission award for their work in this area. I have never heard a coherent argument that the state police must want more accidents with their support of 85th percentile methods. You might also note that Michigan's fatality rate is about 20-25% lower than the national average in recent years. There are many reasons for this including more realistic speed limits, a 98% actual seat belt use rate which I support, MDOT's improvements in highway safety measures like more median barriers, and many other things. Also www.ibiblio.org/rdu/sl-irrel.html This was the largest study ever done on the effects of raising speed limits up to the 85th percentile or lowering them below that level. Raising a limit by up to 15 mph or lowering it by up to 20 mph changes the actual traffic speeds by a MAXIMUM of 3 mph, and usually by about 1 mph or less. You tend to get the lowest possible accident risk with 85th percentile limits and significantly higher accident risks with limits set well below the 85th percentile. The study was done for the Federal Highway Administration and I personally handed a copy to the Mayor in 2007. RE: The new school zone hours limit on Washtenaw, I have no problem with that. It is a proper application of state law under MCL Section 257.627a When a school zone exists, it is correct to set a school zone hours limit, but it is NOT correct to just lower the speed limit 24/7 to a level that drivers do not respect. Note that the former 35 here was about the 10th percentile speed, thus defining about 90% of all drivers as criminals -- and that was ridiculous. RE: M-14, no one has ever explained to me why posting 65 instead of 55 at that area made it harder to get on the road when the actual travel speeds did not change. I drive that area frequently and I perceive the smoother more even flow around 65 makes the patterns much more predictable and safer. This same principle applies everywhere. If the ACTUAL traffic speeds have the main flow of traffic at 36-45 mph for example, how on earth does putting up signs at 25 or 30 improve safety? It doesn't. It makes it worse because a few drivers will go 25 or 30 which increases speed variance, disturbs the smooth flow and raises accident risks. James C. Walker, NMA

UgottaBkidding

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 1:55 p.m.

Newport Road...could be safely raised from 25 mph to 30 mph? REALLY??Is it worth the money for a 5mph increase?? REALLY?! Huron Parkway should be taken a closer look...It is the number one speed trap in Ann Arbor. I think 35 mph is just as ridiculous as the cop who routinely positions his car on the sidewalk just around the bend as nmotorists come southbound down the hill toward Washtenaw Ave. Easy money, deceitful (and they know it).

Ignatz

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 1:33 p.m.

@silly sally, Germans are able to drive the high speeds safely because their autobahns are practically flawless. I'd love to have quality roads like that, but Americans would never pay for them.

Silly Sally

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 1:01 p.m.

"The changes instead imposed a cumbersome "vehicle access-point formula" as the primary means for setting limits." I guess that Mr. West and AA Traffic "engineers" has trouble counting driveways, especially the low number along Huron north of Washtenaw.

pawky

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 12:59 p.m.

@Ed: I couldn't agree more. "If you can't do the time, don't do the crime"

Silly Sally

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 12:57 p.m.

bearlab "for example why 85%? why not 80 or 90? I do hope that bearlab means 80 or 90 MPH! on I-94 Do I hear 110? If Germans can do it, why not Americans. My favorite German sign is a 120 with a line through it. It means no more restricted speed of120 km/hr (75 MPH) For those who oppose this, why not a sped limit of 45 on I-94? How about 20 on State Street. Control, control, control. They probably care if I wear red instead of white underwear. Ann Arbor is spending precious tax dollars to reduce many streets from 2 lanes in each direction to only one lane. Why? So just one car can get in front and drive at 25 in a 40 zone, Liberal spite. The mayor wants to do it so as to make driving so miserable that people will demand buses. Redeploy the police to stopping bike riders at night with no lights, or jay walkers who step in front of traffic at night while looking the other way. It cost two girls their lives a few years back. Enforce handicapped parking or double parking that bloc ks traffic. Station cops at crosswalks and ticket those who do not stop for pedestrians. Especially that new crossing.

Will Warner

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 12:38 p.m.

@Weise "OK, what's so hard with just following the posted speed limits? Instead of threatening class action lawsuits - just drive within the posted limits and there won't be any problems!" When the people are unhappy with the service they are getting from their government, we sometimes have to bang the government upside the head with a lawsuit. Yes, we employ experts in things like traffic engineering. We delegate to those experts responsibility for managing the day to day. But when, for whatever reason, the hired experts' decisions do not make sense to the -- informed -- citizenry, the experts must be led to reconsider.

tdw

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 12:25 p.m.

I really,really hate to do this but I agree with Ed.There is an old saying " you play you pay "

loves_fall

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 12:22 p.m.

@Jim Osborn: Definitely agree on the M14 issue. Getting from 0-55 on M14 was hard, but 0-65 in the face of faster oncoming traffic is always an adventure. One thing they could consider there is something like the flashing light used on the Jackson on-ramp to 94 E to encourage through traffic to use the left lane and give people a chance to merge. Alternatively or in conjunction with that, they could remove the stop sign and just let people come in at low speeds as they do on Jackson Rd and then see what the 85th percentile of traffic looks like.;) Too bad we can't tech up and use more adaptive speed limit devices that would measure the flow and speed of traffic on roadways and vary based on driving conditions. That would be pretty sweet and in a large sense, self-regulating in line with what the people want and what is known to be safer.

Silly Sally

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : noon

"ghost" says, "hardly be said that they are "traps" in the normal sense of the word..." This is exactly what is happening, especially to new comers to Ann Arbor. "ghost" wonders how it can be unfair, since it is the law. It treats newcomers differently since they may not know that a policemane is hiding behind a tree and a much higher speed limit would be the norm elsewhere. It also is lower than the Michigan state speed code. "ghost" says, "Again, don't like paying the fines? Don't break the law. It's just that simple." Why have laws that are not supported by a super majority? Change them. To do otherwise is to breed contempt for the law. This happened when speed limits were lowered from 70 to 55 on freeways. When they were raised again, deaths and accidents did not rise. Speed does not kill,. Germans have no speed limit on portions of their famed Autobahn and do not have a high accident toll. bearlab "for example why 85%? why not 80 or 90? Why should rules that apply to sunshine states apply to winter states with worse driving conditions?" Does Bearlab advocate driving slow as there is ice on the road 365 days out of the year? Why do some have such a desire to control the actions (how fast they drive) of others when their action have NOTHING to do with safety? Ghost, Bear, Joel Batterman Why the need to control harmless actions of others?

Greggy_D

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 11:49 a.m.

@Ghost "6) If you don't want to contribute money to the city of Ann Arbor, follow the law" Unfortunately, the entity NOT following state law is the city of Ann Arbor. @Joel "I urge folks to contact your City Council members and fight this reckless attempt to create Wild West roadways." Joel, is this the same emotionally tinged Wild West that opponents of Concealed Pistol Licenses (CPLs) promised but yet never materialized?

bearlab

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 11:42 a.m.

Hi I, too, have long questioned the reliance on Mr. Walker's conclusions because of his association with NMA and their stated agenda. I think our politicians in Lansing have made a bad choice and put the cities in a no-win situation in policing the roads. If you do a Google search on the topic and only look at reports that give you the actual raw data you can draw your own conclusion. Mine was that the data does not clearly support Mr. Walkers conclusions. Further, the whole premise is based on arbitrary assumptions... for example why 85%? why not 80 or 90? Why should rules that apply to sunshine states apply to winter states with worse driving conditions? Why can we assume that drivers are better judges of the traffic than local residents or local authorities? One only has to drive down US23 or Packard or any of an number of local roads to see the insanity. Mr. Walker stated "They falsely believe that raising speed limits will mean higher actual traffic speeds and that is simply false". Recently the limits on Washtenaw between stadium and Hill were raised to comply with the 85% rule. It is my observation that among other things the change has significantly increased the average traffic speed from Hill to the high pedestrian area of South University due to all of the scofflaws. Further, the 85% rule on Washtenaw recently had to be altered downward to support a pedestrian school crossing near Tappan. I also observe that the "super majority" of drivers ignore that. I do believe that there are areas where the posted speed is too low or is not signed properly to alert drivers and think that we need a method to petition for a fairness review but employing a cookie cutter 85% rule is just silly, and if you peel back the layers, not good science

Joel Batterman

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 11:08 a.m.

Clearly, policing should not be primarily about revenue generation, and if that's the intent behind current enforcement, it needs to change. Safety should come first. Unfortunately, raising speed limits - as opposed to changing enforcement patterns - will almost certainly make our streets less safe. It's particularly unfortunate that AnnArbor.com has not looked into the stated objectives of the National Motorists Association, of which litigant (and speeder) Jim Walker is a board member. The NMA opposes seat belt laws, zero tolerance drunk driving policies, texting-while-driving bans, and all traffic calming measures. In short, the NMA opposes most basic highway safety measures, including those which have saved thousands of lives, in the curious belief that drivers' "rights" outweigh any responsibility they may have to the rights of other drivers and road users, including the right to life itself. Make no mistake: this isn't about the public good. It's a radical attempt to strip away basic traffic safety protections. The "formula" Mr. Walker cites for setting speed limits makes no provision for the actual nature of traffic on the road, and completely disregards the rights of roadway users other than motorists. The portion of Nixon Road on which Mr. Walker broke the law features three marked crosswalks, used daily by senior citizens and the elementary and middle school students of Logan and Clague. Apparently, Mr. Walker feels his right to travel as quickly as possible exceeds any rights they have to survival. I urge folks to contact your City Council members and fight this reckless attempt to create Wild West roadways.

Jim Osborn

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 11:08 a.m.

While I don't like going only 25 MPH on Pontiac Trail, I support it since there are residential homes along it. There could be kids, dogs, or cats endangered by a higher limit. I've always liked slow limits by homes, and higher ones on freeways. One exception is the raising of the limit to 65 on M-14 by Barton. This is bad for two reasons: 1) It makes it that much harder to get up to 65 instead of 55 from a dead stop from the on-ramp. 2) As drivers come east around a curve, there can be stopped traffic, or ice, or both, making it that much harder to stop. I will not go faster than 55 on that stretch, even though I might go much faster before and after that stretch. That was one speed trap that made sense.

SpartyInExile

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 11:02 a.m.

AL, the speed limit on Oak Valley was lowered to 35 mph during construction. It is now back to 45 mph. The problem on Oak Valley is not speeding, it is traffic that insists on driving 25 mph or even 20 mph on this long stretch of road. A deceleration lane for the library branch should be considered.

Daniel

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 11:02 a.m.

OK, what's so hard with just following the posted speed limits? Instead of threatening class action lawsuits - just drive within the posted limits and there won't be any problems!

Yoda

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 10:56 a.m.

Results of the Ann Arbor.com poll, 832 respondents. Should the Ann Arbor City Council adopt the Michigan Vehicle Code and potentially raise speed limits on some roads? Yes, it's about time. 87% No, the speed limits in the city are appropriate. 10% I don't know. 1% Definition of democracy. 1. the political orientation of those who favor government by the people or by their elected representatives 2. a political system in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who can elect people to represent them 3. majority rule: the doctrine that the numerical majority of an organized group can make decisions binding on the whole group

Jim Walker

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 10:54 a.m.

Contrary to aatnap's post, the majority of the unbiased academic studies on speed limits over the last 70 years say to post the limit at the 85th percentile speed of free flowing traffic under good conditions. This tends to produce the smoothest traffic flow, the least speed variance, the fewest conflicts between vehicles and the lowest accident rate. It IS somewhat counter-intuitive, but the super-majority of drivers (85%) make better decisions on the correct speed limits than most engineers can, and FAR better than an arbitrarily low number put on the signs for the wrong reasons. The state police know this and publish a booklet "Establishing Realistic Speed Limits" at www.michigan.gov/speedlimits to explain it in detail. There are generally two wrong reasons to post an arbitrarily low speed limit that is below what most people find safe and comfortable. The first is revenue, as noted in the article. Second, and less obvious, is the pressure politicians get from sincere residents who have no real understanding of how traffic safety engineering actually works. Many well-meaning citizens believe the equation that: Lower numbers on the signs = Lower actual traffic speeds = Greater safety = Fewer accidents. That equation is simply false. The true equation is: Correct 85th percentile numbers on the signs = Smoother traffic flow with less speed variance = fewer conflicts between vehicles = Fewer accidents. When sincere and well-meaning residents demand artificially low numbers on the signs, they actually increase the risks and dangers. Residents also make another innocent mistake. They falsely believe that raising speed limits will mean higher actual traffic speeds and that is simply false. I have measured speeds on Washtenaw and North Main over the 2 & 1/2 years since those limits were raised and the traffic speeds are the SAME. The only change is the elimination of them as speed traps. Science is the answer, not emotion. My main fear is that the city will go part way toward the proper posted limits, but still set them incorrectly at arbitrarily low levels. Newport is a good example. The current 25 mph limit is the 0th percentile speed, essentially no one is in compliance. Raising the limit to 30 will still leave the limit below the 20th percentile speed of free flowing traffic to still define 80+% of all drivers as violators. About 15 years ago, the county posted the road at 40 which is still the 85th percentile speed today with the road posted at 25. Posting at 30 mph will still leave Newport Road as a severe speed trap. MAYBE, just maybe because of the short sight lines, you could make an argument to post Newport at 35 mph so it would be at about the 69th percentile speed, but 30 will be just as wrong as 25 is now and people should still expect it to operate as a severe speed trap. I obviously support the new ordinance, but I hope the city actually posts the safest speed limits on our roads at the 85th percentile speeds, not half way measures that are incorrect and still allow the speed traps to operate freely. People who want to read more on the science of setting proper speed limits can visit our website. James C. Walker, Board Member of the National Motorists Association, www.motorists.org, Ann Arbor, MI

loves_fall

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 10:49 a.m.

This is good news. How about re-evaluating Nixon from Green to Plymouth (to the likely dismay of the officer who I have seen spend two full days ticketing anyone driving down the hill at 6+ mph over the ridiculous 30 mph speed limit), Plymouth to campus area, Pontiac Trail, and Fuller? I feel like Northside speed limits are lower than comparable stretches on the southside. I think we need to rethink driving laws across the board though and really get a solid evidence base for implementation. People need to be willing to follow the legislation and when the perception is that a lot of them are revenue generators, it's unsurprising that there isn't a lot of compliance. I'm not saying there isn't also a lot of narcissism and a lot of just plain bad driving out there, but I think those behaviors are increased when laws are passed and applied inconsistently and unfairly because people start creating their own rules of the road.

David Briegel

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 10:36 a.m.

As Ghost clearly indicates the speed laws are selectively enforced. Jim Osborne is correct about the disrespect for law enforcement that results is counterproductive. We are all still responsible for pedestrians and road conditions. Revenue generation and public safety have little in common!

Jim Osborn

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 10:11 a.m.

Speed traps and unfair speed limits do considerable damage to the image of police. They become disliked instead of being viewed as a positive public servant, as they should be. They can be viewed as the "enemy" by some, for enforcing a poorly written speed limit.. This makes their job more unpleasant and difficult, and is very unfair to police officers. If someone were to get stopped for going 60 up Huron, they only blame themselves. But, if this same driver were to be stopped for going 40 on Huron, anger can build, as it is unreasonable. The state of Michigan has even said so with a new law. Other traffic issues are the many, many "NO TURN ON RED" signs at most intersections that have little basis on safety. Most other areas and state have no such signs. Why should Ann Arbor? We need to support our police and not place them in an unpleasant situation needlessly.

Linda Diane Feldt

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 10:06 a.m.

We are still in the early learning stages for the new pedestrian crossing law - cars must always stop for all pedestrians in a marked crosswalk that has no other signaling device. From my observations as a pedestrian and as a driver, it is clear we have a long way to go towards compliance. Even the new HAWK signal has cars often speeding through the red light. Raising speed limits in areas where there is already serious non-compliance with the crosswalk law frightens me. Whether I'm the one in the crosswalk or driving and carefully watching for people who are crossing in the crosswalk, (and hoping the cars behind me understand why I've stopped) those extra seconds really matter. My hope is that no speed limits are increased until there is near perfect compliance with this new law. We have a long way to go.

breadman

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 10:02 a.m.

Ed! you are right... Raise the speed limit from 35 to 40 is asking for troule, when you have people just jump off the curb to cross, when cross walks are so few so far apart, than wham you are right on top of them. Hard on the brakes, with the way the City now wants plow the roads for snow. To me I just think law is not looking much more than there nose. Long range plans. Get behind the wheel and do the drive with every options that could happen?

Silly Sally

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 9:57 a.m.

"Ed Morrow's Ghost" says "The logic of rasing [sic] speed limits is bizarre. Because many people violate the law, we will change the law to validate their violations." Simple- the law is unreasonable and unfair, and a large super majority feel so and drive faster. Why does "ghost" feel the need to control people through artificially low limits that have nothing to do with safety? He then says, "Wonder why that logic doesn't apply to the legalization of Marijuana?" Because a much smaller minority of people wish to legalize Mary Jane. If a larger group did, as with alcohol in the 1920s and early 1930s, the law will be changed just as Prohibition was ended.

grye

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 9:40 a.m.

It would be good thing to have the upper speed limit be increased on some of our roads. I say upper since the signs do not identify if the limit is upper or lower. (Interesting thought for those wanting to fight a ticket.) The speed limit on Huron Parkway needs to be raised. In the Huron High School area, the speed limit is higher than at the golf course despite the fact students are crossing the busy street. Go figure that one. The speed limit on Plymouth Road was decreased after the students were struck crossing the street in the dark. Why punish all drivers for a pedestrian's mistake. The speed limit on Plymouth Road should be 45 all the way to Maiden Lane. It is currently 45 from US23 to Huron Parkway (which includes a residential area). If the police want to help out the city's budget, make the speed limits reasonable and then enforce them. Speed traps just leave a bad taste in everyone's mouth.

a2susan

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 9:30 a.m.

In order to go 35mph south on Huron you literally need to put your brakes on. Once you go past the gold course and over the hill, you pick up speed going down the hill and around the corner, where you just know a police car is sitting waiting to give you a ticket. But driving with your brakes on is a ridiculous and unsafe way to drive on a regular road. Going the other way on Huron at 35 mph isn't a problem, it just feels like you're never going to get where you're going. And then the speed limit goes up to 40 mph on the other side of Geddes. Why the increase? The speed limit should be at least 40 on both sections of Huron, or, if you go by what most cars drive, 45 mph.

a2chrisp

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 9:30 a.m.

Thank god. Its about time.

Jim Osborn

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 9:29 a.m.

I can predict how Ann Arbor will conduct their speed assessment for each road. They will have a well marked traffic officer standing in a road with a radar gun, recording how everyone travels at the current low speed limit. A more fair system is to do it by posting a speed limit radar sign that stays for a week or by those strips that are placed across the roadway.

Jim Osborn

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 9:26 a.m.

The crux of the problem is the $110,000 that each traffic office brings in by a dishonest system that is rigged to extract money from citizens. This is not about safety, but Russian roulette taxation. On too many lightly traveled Sunday mornings, as I travel on State Street near the auto dealers, there is a police trap waiting. But during the same week, much heavier traffic safely moves at 45 MPH or faster. If these traffic officers were present for safety, they would target jay-walkers who step in front of traffic against red lights or target double parking. I've seen a police car do a panic stop to avoid a jay-walker and then ignore the law breaker. Has someone in city hall ordered that all bicyclists without bike lights at night be ignored by the police? Safety enforcement? The Ann arbor police officers most likely do not like ticketing such speed traps and ignoring real safety issues. They are good officers and probably rather have different orders. Traffic enforcement is important, and needed, so are reasonable speed limits. Where does Ann Arbor's mayor stand on this issue? Is he the one behind Ann Arbor fighting the state law? I still remember at a UM medical facility as I waited to see a doctor, a young wife in her early 20s was crying since she had received a ticket on her way to take her child to the doctor. She was not from Ann Arbor and while she drove normally and safely, she was unaware of the speed traps. Is this how we should treat visitors? Clearly, Ann Arbor traffic enforcement is less about safety and more about revenue. And, that is just wrong.

Somewhat Concerned

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 9:16 a.m.

I stand corrected. I thought Ann Arbor was such a great place for muggers and thieves because the police rode around talking on their cell phones instead of paying attention to their job. It turns out that they are raising money manning speed traps. If it is the job of the police to raise money, I can suggest an easier way. Hang around the student zones Thursday through Saturday nights and arrest one out of every ten drunk drivers that you notice between your phone conversations. You will make more money, faster, and get even more dangerous drivers off the road for at least one night.

sbbuilder

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 9:14 a.m.

The State forced Ann Arbor to raise the speed limit on Washtenaw because it is a business route for I94, and therefore under the jurisdiction of the State. The City dragged its heels for years, all the while collecting untold numbers of speeding tickets. Now that the limit has been raised over the past couple of years, I rarely, if ever, see a cop car lurking on a side street waiting for the occasional evil driver hapless enough to go over the limit. I also don't see any rise in accidents. You can be sure that if there was an increase in accidents, the City would be all over that. The same arbitrary, capricious low limits on other streets has simply got to go. Sorry, City, you'll just have to go elsewhere for a source of ready income.

AL

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 9:09 a.m.

Every city and county in America has so-called 'speed traps.' Sure, if they are draconian, in those several out of balance spots, bump them up where they have created a rancorous debate. Thanks for the story, but what is disconcerting is that the headline of your article says 'some' Ann Arbor speed traps. This creates or furthers a perception that the speed limits in Ann Arbor are overall too slow. Nothing could be further from the case. Population growth and density here has majorly strained the roadway infrastructure. The hustle bustle of a world-class university, the youthful population, Main Street's state-wide popularity, weather, Wolverine fans (all great attributes of a super dynamic town and one highly-rated in all national livability surveys) make for many instances of unsafe and even aggressive driving. Try driving right at the speed limit around town for a while. Then watch and see how many drivers threateningly tailgate you, or even honk their horn at you, for obeying the speed limit on roads where the speed limit is already too high in a number of cases! Case in point: the speed limit was recently LOWERED on Oak Valley Drive between Scio Church and Waters. The situation on Huron Parkway has created animosity. Thanks for the great local reporting on this. But overall, speed traps are not the bigger story in regards to speed limits in Ann Arbor, in this particular individual's humble opinion.

MjC

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 9:05 a.m.

Plymouth Road and Broadway are favorite speed traps for the police. There are a lot of people who take that route to get to the hospital or to downtown Ann Arbor and it's not quite clear what the speed limit is, especially if you're new to town. I'm in favor of these changes but let's all still remember to obey the traffic laws and drive safely!

Pete Warburton

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 8:52 a.m.

If the city moves the speed limit up to 30 mph on Newport Road, they need to notify our resident deer herd. It has taken them years to adjust to 25 mph. An abrupt change in speed could be very bad for all.

Jake C

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 8:50 a.m.

@Pinky: Uhh, a speed limit isn't the only speed you're allowed to drive on the road, just the maximum recommended speed for ideal conditions. Of course you're supposed to drive slower when weather is bad, as we all learned (once again) this past week.

Ignatz

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 8:50 a.m.

I'm all for increased maximum speed limits, but I'll still use my radar detector.

bruceae

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 8:45 a.m.

Anyone who has lived in this area for any length of time knows that Huron Parkway is a very lucrative speed trap for Ann Arbor. Just about everytime I go south towards Washtenaw I see the cops hiding there in the Huron Chase Condos waiting to catch people coming down the hill and around the curve. Maybe if we raise the speed limits these guys could go find some real police work to do? Maybe catch the bank robbers that are still out there. Or maybe we could just lay some more police off and save money?

Killroy

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 8:29 a.m.

With all the cutbacks in police, our chances of being busted have dropped exponentially. Also, I actually pay NO attention to signage whatsoever and simply follow the same speed of the car in front of me. For example, is it really prudent to drive 30 mph down State Street in the middle of hail storm? Or how about a heavy downpour? Common sense must prevail over mandates!

Brad

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 7:47 a.m.

The article talks about a "cumbersome" system for determining appropriate speeds. Is that the opinion of the author, Mr. West, or possibly someone with expertise in traffic engineering?

theodynus

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 7:24 a.m.

"Lt. Gary Megge of the Michigan State Police Traffic Services Division said there's a lot of science to show that setting speed limits near the 85th percentile range improves both safety and traffic flow. That's what the state wants to see in Ann Arbor, he said." That's actually not true. There's science to show that low speed differential between fastest and slowest traffic is good, but the evidence for setting speed limits at the 85th percentile is very, very poor. Studies have gone both ways on this one, and *good* studies are very few.

Steve Pepple

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 7:20 a.m.

A comment containing unsubstantiated allegations has been removed.

law827

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 7:13 a.m.

I have been traveling Huron Pkwy from Washtenaw to Huron River Drive every day for 5 weeks now. The pavement is smooth, there are no traffic signals between HP and HRD and virtually no pedestrian traffic. During one 24 hour period I saw the same police officer stop 3 cars along this route. Seems to be a pattern given it was the same officer all three times. 35 mph is too low. 40 would be a good compromise.

KJMClark

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 7:08 a.m.

The poll doesn't quite make sense. The City adopted UVC a few years ago, but reinstated some of the ordinances. Now they're talking about adopting Michigan Uniform Traffic Code (UTC), not UVC. Michigan UTC is what the State Police and Michigan Municipal League recommend that all cities adopt. Ann Arbor has been (very) slowly moving that way in recent years anyway, since we adopted some of the UTC language for crosswalks and bike lanes over time, and probably other provisions. We should have just adopted UTC and made other changes where needed later. WRT speeding, it's funny that when motorists break the laws, they're only scofflaws, but when it's cyclists breaking the laws for the same reasons, it's worse somehow. Really, just about no one completely obeys our transportation laws.