7th-hour fee lawsuit: Ann Arbor Public Schools has lost case over fees before
A compilation of clippings from the Ann Arbor News dating from 1967 to 1970 covering a class action lawsuit brought against the Ann Arbor Public Schools that challenged fees charged to students for enrollment and textbooks.
Amy Biolchini | AnnArbor.com
A 1968 circuit court ruling on a class action lawsuit brought against Ann Arbor schools in 1966 found various fees the district was charging students for enrollment to be unconstitutional.
An appeal by the plaintiffs in the lawsuit was decided by the Michigan Supreme Court in 1970 and served as the model for statewide policy that continues to be the guiding principle for school districts in regards to charging students fees for classes, materials and textbooks.
AAPS maintains that advice from an independent legal firm received by the Board of Education had taken into account the 1968 and 1970 court rulings in its recommendation that the board was safe in approving charging students $100 per semester for a 7th class.
Bond, et al vs. the Ann Arbor School District
The original class action lawsuit was filed by Lillian Bond and Daniel Fusfeld — two parents of students in Ann Arbor schools — and challenged the district’s fee-charging policies for activities and textbooks as unconstitutional.
Bonds claimed that two of her children were sent home because they didn’t pay the fees — which the school administration dismissed as not true during the trial.
- Fees during the 1966-67 school year that the 1968 lawsuit challenged were:
- Fees by grade for students: $1 for kindergarteners, $3 for grades one through six, $6 for grades seven through nine and $10 for grades 10 through 12
- Materials fees for art, industrial art, home economics and sewing classes
- Fees for pencils and textbooks
- Fees for gym clothes and locker rental
- Fees for the supervision of children who didn’t go home to lunch
- $1 swimsuit rental fee for girls
W. Scott Westerman Jr. served as the assistant superintendent for AAPS from 1963-67, when he was promoted to superintendent and served until 1971.
The Ann Arbor schools’ fee policy was a historic one and was in place prior to 1963 when he was hired, Westerman said Friday. Westerman said the school district’s budget was not under stress under his term until about 1970, when a millage failed and the district had to give layoff notices to 300 employees - which they later recalled.
Though he personally didn’t think the fees the district was charging were equitable, Westerman said the district didn’t move to eliminate them until they were challenged in the lawsuit.
“I felt the concept of a free education was not being realized or implemented fully when I was charging these fees,” Westerman said.
The Washtenaw County Circuit Court ruled that all of the fees were unconstitutional — but it upheld the district’s fees for textbooks. The case was appealed to the state’s high court, which ruled that all public schools must provide textbooks for students with no fee.
A clipping from the Ann Arbor News in 1970 of families selling textbooks back to Ann Arbor Public Schools after a Michigan Supreme Court ruling mandated that public schools provide textbooks free of charge to students.
Amy Biolchini | AnnArbor.com
The Michigan Supreme Court’s order also forced the district to refund $140,862, plus interest, to parents of students that had paid fees in the 1966-67 and 1967-68 school years.
In response to the high court’s decision, the plaintiffs’ lawyer, Arthur E. Carpenter of Ann Arbor, told the Ann Arbor News he was “delighted.”
“To us, free public education means without cost. It means that any qualified child can attend the public schools without a penny in his pocket and with his head held high,” Carpenter said in a July 1970 interview with the News.
The state’s position on fee charging
The Michigan assistant attorney general issued an interpretation of the Supreme Court’s 1970 decision on the case, which prompted the state’s Board of Education to draft a position statement on free textbooks, materials and the charging of fees in 1972. That document is still used by the state as a guideline today.
The document states school districts may not make charges for any required or elective courses such as for:
- General or registration fees
- Course fees or materials ticket charges
- Textbooks and school supplies
However, school districts may charge students for class or organizational dues.
The state Department of Education declined to comment on the lawsuit, but provided a 2011 memo from the state’s Superintendent of Public Instruction Mike Flanagan.
In the memo, Flanagan reminded public school officials of the state’s policies of charging students fees as many school districts under severe budget pressure sought revenue sources.
The memo also included a reminder of the precedent set by the ruling in the 1970 class action case against AAPS:
- School districts may not make charges for any required or elective course, such as for general or registration fees, course fees, and/or textbook and school supplies. School district may determine the reasonable quality and quantity of school supplies that will be provided. The district may also determine the length of time such materials are provided.
- School districts may charge fees for extracurricular activities, but only on a “Pay to Participate” or “Pay to Play” basis. Fees that are portrayed as mandatory costs for families are not allowable. School districts also should make provisions so that students without financial means are not excluded, within reason.
A review of the 1968 and 1970 rulings was taken into consideration by AAPS’ independent legal counsel, Collins & Blaha of Farmington Hills, in its recommendation to the board on the seventh class issue, said Liz Margolis, spokeswoman for AAPS.
“The legal opinion was that it was a completely different situation,” Margolis said.
Friday, Margolis maintained the school district’s stance that because the state’s per-pupil foundation allowance is to provide the mandated six credit hours to students, the district is not legally required to offer students the ability to receive seven credit hours in a school year.
The Ann Arbor Board of Education approved the $100 per semester charge to students who choose to take a seventh class in the same lengthy June 12 meeting in which it approved its budget.
The board cut $8.7 million out of its operations for the 2013-14 school year.
During that budget meeting, Trustee Glenn Nelson said he fully expected the board to be sued for the decision, but believes it would stand the test of a lawsuit due to the board’s legal advice.
Wednesday, the American Civil Liberties Union of Michigan filed a lawsuit on behalf of two Ann Arbor schools families against AAPS.
The suit claims that students at Pioneer and Huron high schools need a seventh class hour in order to complete their graduation requirements if they choose to participate in music, art, foreign language and Advanced Placement classes, or alternate career programs.
AAPS could set a dangerous precedent in Michigan if it begins to implement a tuition-based learning model in public schools with tightening budgets, the ACLU warned.
The firm of Collins & Blaha will continue to represent AAPS through the lawsuit followed by the ACLU, Margolis said.
The changing seventh class option
About 16 percent of students at Huron, Pioneer and Community high schools enrolled in a seventh class in the 2012-13 school year, Margolis said.
For Community High students, a seventh class is an option if they choose to dual-enroll in either Huron or Pioneer.
Beginning this 2013-14 school year, students at all three of those schools will face the $100 per semester charge for a seventh class.
It’s too soon to estimate how many students will seek the seventh class option this year, Margolis said. Class registration at the high schools begins Aug. 20-21.
Margolis said AAPS will offer scholarships to students seeking a seventh class if they cannot afford the charge in the same manner that the district offers scholarships for its “Pay-to-Play” policy with sports.
Though former AAPS Superintendent Westerman was not familiar with the district’s decision this spring to charge students $100 per semester for a seventh class, he offered the following comment:
“Our financial circumstance is making schools less than they should be,” Westerman said.
Amy Biolchini covers Washtenaw County, health and environmental issues for AnnArbor.com. Reach her at (734) 623-2552, amybiolchini@annarbor.com or on Twitter.
Comments
Mike
Tue, Aug 13, 2013 : 4:09 a.m.
Now I know that I am one of the least educated about the Ann Arbor school system known. But common sense tells me that there is more here than meets the article. There is not enough class hours in a day to educate our youth, if they decide to take an elective( band, home economics, ect.). There is not enough teachers to instruct our students during the regular 6 hour course day. Unless these teachers are volunteering their time for the 7th hour, there is a need for more educators. I do not believe that they are giving their time for nothing. Is this a convenient way of staggering instructors starting times and having 7th hour fees go to paying extra teachers? I am sorry, but this article just does not get down to the bare bones of what is going on at AAPS. Charging a fee for a seventh hour that the students should be able to achieve in a normal 6 hour course day will harm those that are not financially secure and will give the advantage to the more wealthy in a public school system. The school system should not be able to charge for what they are already suppose to supply. ( An education ). Tutors and further educators (unless thy are unpaid) should be done outside the public system. ALL STUDENTS SHOULD BE TREATED EQUAL IN OUR PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEMS.
Judy
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 6:48 p.m.
I do not live in Ann Arbor so my comment is a Michigan School general one. Proposal A, saved many people, the real blame goes to School Boards who have continue to spend more money than they receive year, after year, after year for the last 20 + years. Michigan Taxpayer's are not an endless money bucket. School districts, with school boards that can not work within a balanced budget need to go.
Gretchen Ridenour
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 5:27 p.m.
AAPS are consistently ranked among the best. I briefly reviewed the admission citeria for 12 public universities in Michigan. I didn't look at colleges, private schools, or the top 25 nationally ranked univerisities. In additional to GPA and ACT/SAT scores, universal admission requirements were the quality of the curriculum and extracurricular activities. Curriculum included number and type of college prep courses taken, 2 years of a foreign language, and AP/honors/IB/CLEP/dual enrollment courses taken. Extracurricular activites included fine arts courses (music, art, dance), academic clubs, school leadership, community service, athletics. If AAPS wish to continue to be one of the best, then they need to be able to offer free public education for students to meet common admission criteria at our public universities. Foreign language was universally required and fine arts electives were universally recommended. It's unclear to me as to why the district views taking these courses as well as AP classes as a luxury and not a necessity to maintain its reputation and ranking within Michigan and the nation. With my limited knowledge of school budgets, it seems like if there is a budget to defend this lawsuit, then maybe there is money to offer required college prep courses for free.
DCW
Wed, Aug 14, 2013 : 8:41 p.m.
Did you attend or have children in AAPS? From what I remember at Huron, two-years of foreign language was required for ALL students. This could have been completed without ever taking a seventh hour. I doubt they did away with this requirement.
Gretchen Ridenour
Tue, Aug 13, 2013 : 2:12 a.m.
The AAPS Board of Education website (http://instruction.aaps.k12.mi.us/files/1112_HSSSG_opt.pdf) states the following: * We will create a complete educational program featuring personalized learning that realizes student aspirations and meets international standards. * We will ensure resources adequate to accomplish our mission and objectives. The Michigan Merit Curriculum website (http://www.michigan.gov/documents/mde/FAQ_-_Entire_Document_12.07_217841_7.pdf) lists the 18 credits required for high school graduation, noting that it is "the floor, not the ceiling". In order to create an educational program that meets international standards, the AAPS district must allocate their resources to provide free 7th hour education. This will allow students to take 4 yrs of science, 4 yrs of social studies, 4 years of a foreign language. If I understand the HS course selction properly, AP courses are scheduled for 2 class periods/day. A student who wishes to take art or music (band, orchestra, choir) classes also need an additional class hour each day. It is in the school district's best interest to put their money where their mouth is if they want to call themselves "exceptional".
towncryer
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 11:34 p.m.
WE already fund a program for 500 students so they can have special learning experience and more teacher interaction yet be able to do sports and theater off campus. Anytime anyone brings up the financial feasibility of keeping it we get "oh, why mess with a good thing" "you will have so many parents leave the district", ad nauseam. I'm just having trouble seeing the difference I guess.
TryingToBeObjective
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 9:45 p.m.
Who says taking seven classes put you in the top 16%? Taking an easy "A" music class or a foreign language class puts you there? Wrong. My kid is a top student- I paid for the convenience of extra classes during the summer. He has TWO foreign languages, five years of math, advanced classes- all without imposing the cost on the rest of the district. He took SIX classes at a time, including some online. Are these 16% unwilling to take a FREE online class as their seventh course? That's a CHOICE they make. If they leave the district, oh well. Smaller classes due to less students taking more than they are entitled to. Would you rather see bussing cut? What if that's the choice- seven classes or bussing? And 84% of the district needs to fund that other 16%, as well as pushing some of that 84% out of the district due to increased class sizes? They should pay for the extra perks.
DonBee
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 7:09 p.m.
TTBO - So drive the top 16 percent of students out of the district? Reduce the number of students and the money from the state. Right! Great Idea, since the cost of instruction is less than 60% of what a student brings in, the other 40% is overhead. Really great idea, but more stress on the finances. Right On!
TryingToBeObjective
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 6:44 p.m.
You can take those classes, just take them six at a time like 84% of the district does. It's not like only 16% of high schoolers matter, or are successful and college bound. They all matter.
Charles Curtis
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 5:13 p.m.
The question I have and have had is completely in regards to how much money per student is spent on education at Community, Skyline, Pioneer and Huron HS. If the money spent per student is not equal then I will not support the fee. All the schools regardless of their format should be made to spend a similar amount per pupil on education. Skyline has trimesters and Community does block scheduling, neither of which is comparable to Pioneer and Huron on a class by class basis, so only fair way is $ per pupil at the schools. I believe there is more money spent at Skyline and Community than Huron and Pioneer and there is no reason why some students should have to pay what others do not (financial hardship is another topic).
DCW
Wed, Aug 14, 2013 : 8:48 p.m.
Really @Basic Bob?? Perhaps times have changed, but when I was an AAPS Middle School, counselors encouraged all students to apply, and especially those that they felt would do better in a less traditional environment. I never really knew Community to be "elitist". In fact, many of the kids I knew who went there would be labeled more on the hipster, alternative, side. The interesting this is the perception by most of my friends at Huron was that Community kids were a little "different" (not necessarily in a bad way) not "rich".
aamom
Tue, Aug 13, 2013 : 4:01 a.m.
Bob if what you say is true, it sounds like more of a problem with the middle school staff than with CHS.
Basic Bob
Tue, Aug 13, 2013 : 1:38 a.m.
The laptops lasted about 3 years. It doesn't make up for decades of neglect and redlining.
Basic Bob
Tue, Aug 13, 2013 : 1:36 a.m.
"Are you saying the CHS lottery isn't random" Students of minority and low socioeconomic background are STRONGLY discouraged from applying by middle school staff. Because one needs a car and lunch money to fit in, opportunities for sports and music programs are limited, and none of their friends go there. It's a random sample of People Like Us.
TryingToBeObjective
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 9:51 p.m.
They discontinued the bus that took all TWO students from CHS to Skyline midday last year. The busses from CHS to Pioneer and Huron had less than ten kids. Big waste of $$ Are you saying the CHS lottery isn't random Basic Bob? Where's your proof? Is it ethical that "certain schools" get laptops when other do not? Random: no. Ethical: no.
Basic Bob
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 9:35 p.m.
Community High School has a lower proportion of minority and low income students than any neighborhood school in the entire district. Every single year. Random? No. Ethical? No. Our enlightened liberal community does not get it.
kris
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 9:06 p.m.
Look...there are several high schools in AA and they are all different in many ways with classes/options offered. My senior Skyline student who has taken (and loved) Chinese for the previous three years was just informed that it is being canceled at Skyline. He was told that he could take the class at Huron or Pioneer but I don't see that as an option for our family due to transportation issues. That certainly doesn't see fair to me...offering different language options at the high schools. I would gladly pay $100 and even more if he could take a 4th year of Chinese.
ViSHa
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 8:57 p.m.
Although I tend to think Angry Moderator isn't too far off (except about bus thing--I thought they discontinued that?), I would also love to see data about socioeconomic makeup of schools for comparison. However, I don't recall ever being asked income questions in the pile of repetitive paperwork AAPS sends home. I thought the only income verification was concerning eligibility for school lunch, etc. Lastly, hearing the phrase "you take the drawbacks with the benefits" from a Community High advocate is almost laughable!
a2xarob
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 8:06 p.m.
To Angry Moderate: Are there data that show the socioeconomic status of students at each high school? Could you please state the source? I'd be very interested to see these figures. Thanks.
Angry Moderate
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 7:48 p.m.
CHS students take electives at the big schools if they want them--and we spend a bunch of money on a huge school bus running students to and from CHS several times per day, when the city bus is right across the street (and when CHS students are far wealthier than the rest on average).
Chester Drawers
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 6:49 p.m.
Boosters at the comprehensive high schools support athletic teams, in which many CHS students participate, so I would say that the sharing is already occurring.
TryingToBeObjective
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 6:40 p.m.
The number of electives available at Community is nowhere near the same. There is no equity. You take the drawbacks with the benefits. A benefit that Huron and Pioneer have that CHS and Skyline do not are established, well funded booster clubs. Maybe everyone should share $$ to make it equitable?
TryingToBeObjective
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 5:13 p.m.
The bottom line is, if the BOE is defeated, they can easily eliminate seventh hour altogether. Or something else will have to be cut. What will it be? Will it affect your kid?
TryingToBeObjective
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 9:52 p.m.
So they cut seventh hour. Oh well. I bet Skyline is on semesters by next year. The only reason not this year was timing.
Basic Bob
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 9:32 p.m.
Huron and Pioneer students can't possibly qualify for 30 credits even if they pay $800+. Sounds like a successful lawsuit to me.
ypsituckian
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 5:42 p.m.
Keep trying.
aaparent
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 5:02 p.m.
I am also curious when the tradition of having families donate large amounts of supplies to classrooms, especially in K-8, became a tradition or common practice in AAPS. Was this connected to the fee lawsuit in the 1970s or separate. It has always seemed a bit mysterious how some teachers will ask for copious donations of tissues, hand sanitizer and more and others do not and how some PTOs in buildings provide those supplies and others do not.
Susie Q
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 6:51 p.m.
My kids went to Chelsea Public Schools and we usually rec'd a suggested supply list. School budgets do not allow for facial tissue, hand sanitizer and other supplies. Districts all over the state are hurting financially and it is not usually the case of mismanagement. AAPS receives the same amount per student as they did 10 years ago and the cost of energy, health insurance, supplies, textbooks have gone up a lot. There will be more painful cuts for the foreseeable future. Other districts do not offer a "free" seventh credit. If the community members decide that the inequity of credits between Skyline and other schools is too problematic, then switch Skyline to semesters and eliminate the 7th hr option at PHS and HHS. Then all will be equal.
TryingToBeObjective
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 5:19 p.m.
"Copious donations?" I don't mind sending in a box of tissue, or anything else I can. Some teachers buy these items themselves, spending "copious amounts" of their own money. Some PTOs have more money than others, due to demographics. Some teachers spend classroom stipends on teaching materials, not nonessential comfort items. There's no mystery, it's common sense. It's your choice heather or not to help with donations. That's why it's called a donation. I like being able to help out a little with a box of softer tissue during the cold and flu season.
ViSHa
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 5:12 p.m.
Personally, while I do send in things, I don't think it's fair to assign extra credit points to them as some teachers do.
aaparent
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 4:45 p.m.
@Amy -I think there was another lawsuit in the 1970s or maybe it was a threat of a lawsuit regarding other curriculum issues and there was a federal complaint filed on school redistricting when the district built Clinton school (now sold and in use by another organization as of the 1987 closings) Digging in to the history of lawsuits against AAPS prior to the teacher sub lawsuit which cost the district $$$$ is probably time well spent by the A2.com journalists. I think the community would know a whole lot less about what is going on in the schools this past year without the A2.com efforts to try with what resources they have to follow some issues. The coverage might not be perfect and may be a thorn in the sides of the BOE and Balas, but I think it will continue to help the community to have live blogs, stories like this one and the regular consistent coverage of school issues that are not touched upon in the school communications or public relations messages and publications.
aaparent
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 4:41 p.m.
@Amy and A2.com -- Thanks for doing this story and providing a sense of history. This is a nice community service to review this and get comments from Scott Westerman. I may have missed this but is the figure of 16% of students in the highschools taking 7th hour a consistent one or just as of last year? What is the actual number of kids in 7th hour over the course of grades 9-12 as it relates to needing to add a 7th hour class in one semester or another in order to graduate? I am still confused as to why Liz Margolis is providing the data vs. our deputy superintendent for curriculum who would be the expert on all the details related to course requirements, registration glitches or plans and/or the head of district counseling and guidance John Boshoven. I don't think that Margolis's sum up really gives us all the facts we need to understand this. The 7th hour of the day vs. a 7th class in a students's schedule is a point of confusion or misunderstanding. Also, the fact that Skyline which operates as a comprehensive high school and a magnet school, unlike community which is magnet only, has it's own credit accumulation system with teachers working in longer time blocks for a total possible classroom teaching periods that are fewer than at Pioneer and Huron. Perhaps a teacher could clarify this or Linda Carter could speak to how this is calculated or would that be HR to comment?
TryingToBeObjective
Tue, Aug 13, 2013 : 1:38 a.m.
One doesn't know unless one tries- of course if one refuses to try.... An online class will be required for future graduates, so parents should at least consider the concept now.
towncryer
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 11:39 p.m.
How do you equate the amount of classes one can handle with their learning style?
TryingToBeObjective
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 9:54 p.m.
They are good enough students to take an extra class, but not if it's self- paced online?
Chester Drawers
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 6:58 p.m.
TTBO: You seem to be an ardent supporter of online courses and I agree that, in some circumstances, they can be great. But some high school students don't learn well this way, and instruction in some subjects (math, lab sciences, foreign language) fares much better with a teacher to deliver it.
TryingToBeObjective
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 5:04 p.m.
It's stated that taking an extra seventh class, if one is not an online class, is when there is the extra charge, not taking a class during seventh hour. The question is, how many of that 16% could fit their classes into six class periods if they got their "second choice" schedule, prioritizing academics over electives? How many could take one online class and eliminate the need for a seventh class? How many have actually tried to schedule an online class to make their schedule work?
TheDiagSquirrel
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 3:53 p.m.
Back in the late 60's/early 70's, I would guess that we didnt have several redundant superintendent positions, or a dedicated position for simply being a spokesperson. Eliminating just one of these positions would certainly free up much needed money. Does anybody have data on the amount of administrators back then, compared to now? It seems like they accomplished more with less back then.
Goober
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 4:23 p.m.
The AA BOE has no intent of reducing overhead. They are numb and oblivious to the fact that the organization is top heavy. Most of Balas is not value added and can be improved significantly, yielding a great cost reduction. They take out teachers so they can rub our faces in it and hope that we cough up a tax increase or two. We need to replace the whole BOE. All of them.
Angela Todd
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 3:47 p.m.
I've never heard anything so infuriating in my life. Angela Todd, Ann Arbor resident.
towncryer
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 11:40 p.m.
which is infuriating, the lawsuit or the fee?
Greg
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 2:58 p.m.
Doubt you really want to go down the scholarship path for high schools. You may end up like the U of MI at the point where most students have to have scholarships to even get thru. Sadly the leaders of the U think that is just great and seem to laugh all the way to deposit their top dollar paychecks at the banks.
matt1027
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 2:50 p.m.
Oh my.... $100 a semester and people are making a stink? They're upset because it's an extra hour of time watching their own child in the first place. If a hundred bucks every four months is enough to even think about twice you are in a sad place. You certainly can't afford the tuition that's around the corner for your child (or not).
matt1027
Fri, Aug 23, 2013 : 1:26 p.m.
I pay for it too and I don't make the mistake of putting another waste if space teen out there. If you even think twice about 100 bucks you should have never had a kid.
Basic Bob
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 9:27 p.m.
"If you want more classes, go to Skyline- ANYONE can- equal opportunity." It's over 12 miles and 20 minutes without traffic from the highway. And the bus doesn't take ninth graders from our neighborhood to Skyline. Separate but equal needs to stop now.
TryingToBeObjective
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 6:37 p.m.
That would be a good thing- demand- applications have been dropping every year.
Willie Reid
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 5:54 p.m.
Anyone can now, but if all of a sudden there were an onslaught of applications for Skyline, it would be back to a lottery system.
TryingToBeObjective
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 5:22 p.m.
The students are being treated equally- those taking a seventh class are getting something that those who take six classes are not getting, so they should pay for it. If you want more classes, go to Skyline- ANYONE can- equal opportunity.
TryingToBeObjective
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 4:57 p.m.
Anyone can send their kid to Skyline. If you can get your kid home after seventh hour, you can get them home from Skyline.
Goober
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 4:18 p.m.
We already pay for this education in our taxes. Why are we being asked to pay tuition for high school education? Skyline parents don't pay, do they? Only Pioneer or Huron has to pay. This is just not right!
Chester Drawers
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 3:18 p.m.
Matt, I'm pretty sure that no parents of high school students regard a 7th hour class as a babysitting opportunity!
Jim Mulchay
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 2:37 p.m.
The historic problem for government bodies - (1) Is it legal? (2) Is it right? Some choices are easy, some are tough. I guess this is what keeps lawyers employed.
AMOC
Wed, Aug 14, 2013 : noon
ChrisW - In a word, yes. Defending this lawsuit will cost 3-20 times as much as the $100,000 the Board expects to collect from this fee this year. They are trying to set a precedent, and it is a precedent that will, in my opinion, negatively affect public education in Ann Arbor and the rest of Michigan.
craigjjs
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 7:56 p.m.
"Is it right?" has precious little to do with lawyer employment. From the government perspective, there are other people better qualified and responsible for making that choice. From the plaintiff perspective, you should add "Will the government pay my legal fees if we win?"
ChrisW
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 2:42 p.m.
(3) Will defending the lawsuit cost more than the projected savings?
Willie Reid
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 2:32 p.m.
Does anyone know what the estimated cost savings are vs. the estimated costs of the lawsuit?
AMOC
Wed, Aug 14, 2013 : 11:58 a.m.
The estimate was that the fee would generate $100,000 for the 2013-14 school year. The Board have already sunk money into an outside legal opinion, which given the firm they use and some knowledge of history, probably cost them $10-15,000. Going forward, I'd estimate that legal advice and services will cost Ann Arbor Public Schools right around $1,000 per hour of Board of Ed meetings discussing this matter, and $10,000 per hour of hearing at whatever level. And I expect them to lose. I disagreed strongly with the recall effort over Superintendent selection, but on this issue, I think the Board as a whole, and especially Glenn Nelson, deserves to be recalled.
CLX
Tue, Aug 13, 2013 : 12:56 a.m.
You're forgetting the money already sunk into the law firm that decided that this scheme was legal. That needs to be added to the total.
TryingToBeObjective
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 6:35 p.m.
If they win, perhaps the ACLU or the parents that sued will have to pay costs. Obviously these parents are not concerned about more district cuts or they wouldn't have filed suit. If the BOE caved to every parent demand, the district would be in even worse shape.
Willie Reid
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 5:53 p.m.
I understand that, but now they have to pay attorney fees to defend a lawsuit. Was that money budgeted? Did they put an allowance in the budget for lawsuit defense related to this new policy? I'm not arguing either side here. I'm just looking for information.
TryingToBeObjective
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 4:55 p.m.
If they don't charge $100, they will ave to come up with another $100,000 cut to the budget. What should they cut then? Busses? Some electives? Reading teachers?
Amy Biolchini
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 1:50 p.m.
Forgot this point: Scholarships. AAPS is now saying that they'll offer scholarships to students who can't afford the $100-per-semester fee for a 7th class (those students may be involved in other programs including free and reduced lunch as well). Do you think a scholarship is a good way to handle the equity factor implied with the $100 charge?
TryingToBeObjective
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 4:53 p.m.
The system for evaluating scholarships is ALREADY in place.
Z-man
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 3:29 p.m.
The notion of scholarships is further evidence that the school board didn't think this through. What will it cost to establish a system for evaluating scholarship applications? The admin costs will probably exceed the $100 that's at stake.
TryingToBeObjective
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 2:43 p.m.
That would be 84% vs. 16%, corrected percentages.
TryingToBeObjective
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 2:35 p.m.
There are hardship waivers for those who fall in the in between category. Your kids don't have to take the extra classes. They have to make choices. It's part of life. 86% of the district makes choices. The other 14% can do it as well. Amy, I read that AAPS has always said they'll offer scholarships for the $100 fee. It's not new, per Andy Thomas, it was included in the original choice by the BOE to charge for the extra class. Also important to mention is that online classes that are a seventh class are not charged the $100 fee, per Mr. Thomas. There are so many online courses available, including required math classes, and extra foreign language classes, that there is no excuse, one just has to make the effort.
chubabuba
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 2:14 p.m.
I don't think scholarships are worth much to those that are already strapped for money every month, but do not fall into the "you don't make enough, here is a scholarship" category. If I have two kids in HS, that is an extra $400/year, plus the school supplies, Pay to Play fees, school donations, field trips, extra curricular anything. This is not equal opportunity for all. It's equal for those that have extra $ and those that have zero. There are too many people that fall in between that have to take money from their grocery budget to get the same opportunities or they don't get them at all.
Chester Drawers
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 1:49 p.m.
Gramma, You are absolutely wrong. High school credits are measured in Carnegie Units. 30 credits (at Skyline) are worth exactly 6 more Carnegie Units than 24 credits (Pioneer), as viewed by college admissions officers.
Amy Biolchini
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 1:44 p.m.
According to the conversation I had with AAPS spokeswoman Liz Margolis, the district is still finalizing the language for how this $100-per-semester charge will be presented to students. It should be interesting to see the finalized wording the district develops and how that factors in to the lawsuit.
CLX
Tue, Aug 13, 2013 : 12:59 a.m.
So glad that they're prepared - what the heck do these people do all summer? They are implementing a huge new fee program but haven't figured out how to word the fee arrangement. Sounds like they did not get their money worth from the firm they hired.
DonBee
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 7:01 p.m.
It will be interesting because some people already have invoices for the charge, so the language is ex-post facto at this point.
AMOC
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 1:33 p.m.
Excellent coverage of the history of this issue. Thanks to Annarbor.com. I'm so glad that these families and the ACLU are taking on the AAPS school board over this issue. There really is very little room in the Michigan Department of Education rules for AAPS to argue the legality of the fees they have been or are currently charging for full-day kindergarten, for students to take a 7th class on-line and this proposed $100 fee for a 7th face-to-face class in a semester. The MDE regulation boils down to "If the class occurs during the regular school year and credit or a grade is given by the school district, the district MAY NOT charge a fee." (emphasis mine) That's pretty clear, and AAPS is and has been on the wrong side of this "bright line" rule for some years. The increased competition for college admissions and Michigan's more stringent HS graduation requirements are causing more students to take foreign languages for all 4 years in HS, and to commit to participating in the excellent music programs provided by AAPS. Students who do both will almost certainly require a 7th hour or a summer school class at some point in his or her high school schedule. I think not only should the fee for a 7th class (whether on-line or in-person) be eliminated, but that summer school fees should be waived if the student couldn't get access to the class during the regular school year due to space limitations or schedule conflicts with another academic class. If AAPS wants to continue to have a large percentage of their HS students participate in some of their excellent performing and fine arts classes, they need to ditch this "7th hour shakedown".
ViSHa
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 9:06 p.m.
AMOC, it almost sounds like this fee idea has been in the works earlier than thought?
YpsiLivin
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 8:52 p.m.
DonBee, To be awarded a high school diploma in Michigan, minimally students must complete the following academic requirements, established by the Michigan Merit Curriculum (MMC): 4 credits in English Language Arts 4 credits in Mathematics, including Algebra 1, Algebra 2, Geometry + 1 addt'l course 3 credits in Science, including Biology, Chemistry or Physics, + 1 other course 3 credits in Social Studies 1 credit in Visual, Performing and/or Applied Arts 1 credit in Physical and Health Education Credit or non-credit experience in online education 2 credits in a language other than English (Class of 2016 and later) Individual districts are permitted to create additional credit/graduation requirements beyond those mandated by the State of Michigan. So no, you won't find a Michigan state law that mandates a 24-hour high school graduation requirement because there is none. You will find an 18-hour high school graduation requirement that every student must meet, plus any additional requirements the school districts adopt on their own. AAPS requires students to accumulate at least 22 credits to graduate. AAPS students must also take the Michigan Merit Exam as a requirement of graduation.
AMOC
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 7:59 p.m.
TTBO- Yes, only 16% of the high school students took a 7th hour class last year. Is that number representative of either past or future demand? I don't think so. What the district hasn't told us is how many students took 7th hour the year before, or the year before that, nor have they mentioned how many students took a 7th class on-line in 2012-13 and paid the district $250 for that "privilege". That charge for a 7th class on-line has been the practice at AAPS for the past 4 or 5 years. Two different HS counselors told me that students at both Huron and Pioneer were actively discouraged from signing up for 7th hour last year unless they were seniors. 2012-13 saw significant reductions in the number of classes that were available during 7th hour by administrative decree from Balas. In addition, the students who will be required by the state of Michigan to have taken 2 years (4 semesters) of a foreign language were only freshmen in the 2012-13 school year. If the planned increases in Michigan standards actually occur, it looks to me like 20-35% of AAPS high school students will be taking a 7th hour class each year, and almost all of them will need to take at least one 7th face-to-face class, a 7th class on-line or a summer school class in order to complete all the graduation requirements within 4 school years.
DonBee
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 7 p.m.
YpsiLivin - I can't find the 6 hour or 6 credit in any state law. I can find a total number of hours of instruction, I can find the "may not" charge in the comment by AMOC, but not the 6 hours. The AAPS BOE seems to think that anything beyond 6 credits something they can charge for. I would love to see the legal brief that gave them this advise.
TryingToBeObjective
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 2:43 p.m.
AMOC, 16% is not a large percent participating in performing and fine arts classes. It's minor. And not all of that 16% take music classes.The schedule conflicts are due to choosing too many electives, and not prioritizing academics. If your kid can't "access a class", it's more likely due to the class overcrowding caused by the 16% who OPT to take an EXTRA class, at the expense of everyone else.
YpsiLivin
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 2:08 p.m.
The AAPS views the "7th class" as a non-mandated course. (Only 6 credits (some of which are "elective") are mandated each academic year.) According to the AAPS, a 7th class should be "pay-to-play," just like sports. Regardless of how the lawsuit turns out, AAPS wins. If the Court tells them that they can't charge the fee (seems unlikely since the 7th credit certainly fails the "mandatory" test, and isn't considered an "elective" under the State-mandated curriculum), the AAPS will bar all students from taking a 7th course. If the Court tells them the fee is legal, they will begin offering "extra" courses at their true cost. (Hundreds of dollars per year.) I think the AAPS will prevail on the fee. After all, what's magic about 7 credits per year? Why not make the schools offer 8 or 9 or 10 credits? Why not make them run 24 hours a day, year round? If the question is about access, what's more accessible than 24/7?
ViSHa
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 1:17 p.m.
If this lawsuit involves finances, will that open up the books of AAPS? Since there are always questions about dubious spending, conflict of interest auditing and not enough transparency, this could be a plus. Also, could someone explain to me (nicely) about these differences in eligible credits between the high schools and is that pretty typical in most districts?
Goober
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 1:35 p.m.
I hope so. I would love to see each and every financial line item.
Gramma
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 1:01 p.m.
The idea of public schools is that everyone, rich and poor, has an equal opportunity for an education. The United Nations states that education is a one of the basic needs of people, in addition to food, shelter, clothing and medical care. We, as a nation, criticize other nations that do not provide free public education for their poor or for girls, yet we are moving in the direction of eliminating free, public education. Our education system already falls behind that of many other "developed" countries. I believe that music and the other arts, as well as second languages, should be made available to everyone. Again, in most "developed" countries, a large percentage of people are bilingual because second languages are taught in the schools.
NSider
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 1:34 p.m.
Yes, and in most nations, children go to school 6 days a week, 8am to 4pm. Recess is unheard of. I don't see why the US should attempt to teach the unwilling to learn.
TryingToBeObjective
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 1:18 p.m.
News flash, Gramma. 84% of the district makes it work. So-called scholarships are provided for those who cannot afford the minor $100 charge for the extra class. Summer school charges $225 per class, and some students already use it to accommodate their extra classes.
skigrl50
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 12:51 p.m.
7th hour is really no different than Summer School. When will there be a lawsuit requiring AAPS to make that free too? If 7th hour goes away, many of these overachieving students will be forced to give up their summer activities and take their academic requirements during the summer so they can take their electives during the school year.
TryingToBeObjective
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 1:50 p.m.
Point taken. I'm not a fan of Skylines mastery concept.
ViSHa
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 1:21 p.m.
Perhaps if Pioneer could take tests over and over until they passed that would alleviate some of the kids who use 7th hour or who need summer school for that matter.
lorayn54
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 1:16 p.m.
interesting point you are making. when i was in high school (in another state) i did take required courses in summer school so I could take more music electives (in my case band and choir and journalism). and I was a "high achieving" student from a low income single parent family. In my state summer school was free and often taken by students who had not done well enough during the school year. I don't think i would have been able to take the summer classes if they had come with tuition.
Gramma
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 1:07 p.m.
Being interested in taking an elective class doesn't mean you are overachieving anymore than not taking one means you are underachieving. The same opportunities should be available to everyone in the public schools. Charging fees for electives is similar to "tracking" students into college or basic level classes because of their economic background. It deprives many students of the opportunity for classes others are permitted to take.
deres
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 12:34 p.m.
How about cutting the Community High block scheduling, which was reported (I believe) to cost $500,000 per year? Wouldn't that cover the costs here? That won't happen because the BOE is scared of Community parents. Gotta protect Community, even if it means ambitious students lose band, orchestra, or an AP class. Community High Forever!
TryingToBeObjective
Tue, Aug 13, 2013 : 1:42 a.m.
If they can get to Pioneer. My kid doesn't, and never has. The midday bus to Pioneer, which is now nonexistent, had less than a open kids on it. Also kids come to CHS for AA and dance from Pioneer, Huron, and Skyline.
CLX
Tue, Aug 13, 2013 : 12:47 a.m.
@Trying to be Objective: I think your argument is a huge cheat -- Community doesn't need to offer a bunch of electives because the kids from Community just go to Pioneer to take electives there.
deres
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 7:50 p.m.
Honest mistake. I searched for "block scheduling" and ran across several articles, only one of which put a price tag on it. Sorry you're not able to think the best of your fellow man. Can you post a link to the BOE notes so I can read up? Thanks.
TryingToBeObjective
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 4:51 p.m.
Um, yeah. And then the arithmetic error was pointed out last spring at a BOE meeting, that its $5,000, not $300,000. Might want to read ALL the articles, not just the old ONE that supports your response.
deres
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 4:16 p.m.
My mistake. I was switching some numbers that I've recently read. According to this past article, the number is $300,000, unless I am not reading the numbers correctly. It implies that having standard scheduling would result in 3 FTE layoffs. http://www.annarbor.com/news/education/budget-cuts-ann-arbor-school-board-tweaks-proposals-looks-for-ways-to-keep-teachers/ "In the administration's initial list of potential cuts back in December, reducing 3 FTE at Community High School to eliminate the school's block scheduling also was suggested. It would have saved the district $300,000."
TryingToBeObjective
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 1:23 p.m.
You have too many zeros. Try $5,000 different. Cost per student at CHS is almost the same as Pioneer and Huron, but it without the ridiculous amount of electives offered at those schools. Perhaps Pioneer and Huron could go to block scheduling, and cut a few hundred of the electives offered? Ambitious students take band? A previous commenter said her kid took music and was barely passing her academics. That's not ambitious, that's ridiculous.
Nick Danger
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 12:32 p.m.
Look,the money is not there to allow the district to pay for a seventh class.The attempt at compromise has failed.Simply eliminate the seventh hour.If you want to blame someone blame Rick Snyder. He has all but destroyed funding for public educaton
Judy
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 6:37 p.m.
Proposal A, saved many people, the real blame goes to School Boards who continue to spend more money than they receive year, after year, after year for the last 20 + years.
Charles Curtis
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 5:29 p.m.
Try and get informed, the issue is the state takeover of public education. All taxes for school go to the state and get sent from there. Ann Arbor residences only get 1/3 of the money we pay used in the district. The majority get sent to other districts. That goes back 20 years or so when everone thought prop A and lottery funding of schools was such a great idea. Snyder is working in a system already established. Granholm was also working in the same system, but her admin would change funding during the school year after all budgets were approved, at least Snyder gives better notice and hasnt changed amounts during school year. We need to change the state and go back to allowing communities to decide how much they want to spend on education and what specifically to spend money on. In one move Ann Arbor could see taxes DECREASE and all funding cuts restored and fees discontinued. Having the state decide how education should run is about as good as having the federal gov't set standards for education, every since either began doing those things our education quality has been in a continuous decline.
Goober
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 1:34 p.m.
Might as well blame Bush while you are at it. Snyder did not negotiate any AA union contracts - our BOE did. Snyder does not make decisions for our school system - our BOE does. Snyder is not involved with controlling AA school system costs - our BOE is. Shall I continue?
Hugh Giariola
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 12:29 p.m.
Nice story Amy. I appreciate your dissection of the historical rulings and now I really feel that AAPS has overstepped their bounds with this fee.
seasons
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 12:22 p.m.
Public education is not based upon making money for the system. Public education is meant to be for all regardless of financial issues. This is a terrible idea and while having to sue the AAPS in an attempt to stop this effort is unfortunate, I do hope it is successful. Shame on those who came up with this idea and are giving tacit support.
TryingToBeObjective
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 10 p.m.
Again, hardship waivers are available. And those who take a seventh hour can afford to pay the extra cost to get home, since there is no bus.
Basic Bob
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 9:15 p.m.
@TTBO, for some it is a choice between seventh hour and a visit to the dentist.
ViSHa
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 1:27 p.m.
I agree that people are making a lot of assumptions that being against this fee is due to greed and laziness. It is not right to say what $100 means to one person is the same for everyone. I think there are more civilized ways to disagree about this fee.
Gramma
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 1:14 p.m.
Make that "equal opportunities with the wealthy."
Gramma
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 1:14 p.m.
Local, What you're saying is that only the wealthy have the right to the classes given during 7th hour. That is definitely unconstitutional. Many poorer parents are working 2 or 3 jobs just to keep food on the table. Not everyone has those fancy cell phones and i-pads. Some kids, seeing that they don't have the same opportunities, give up and get part time jobs so they can have those cell phones and even help younger siblings stay in school. Your statement definitely suggests that people are poor because they are lazy, which is not true. People are often poor because they lack equal opportunities with the poor.
TryingToBeObjective
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 1:13 p.m.
Gramma, if parents are working during the day, they can use a fax, or mail the forms. That's not an excuse. Buying a musical instrument isn't free either, and I bet it costs more than $100 for most. Those same parents pay to get their kids home from that extra seventh hour, as bussing after seventh hour is not provided. Cutting seventh hour would save some parents money.
local
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 1 p.m.
Gramma, this could be true, but 100.00 is less than it cost to play 1 rec. and ed. sport, or pay for the monthly cell phone bills that many families probably have, etc... Their is no PC way of saying it, but if they have the desire to get the funds because they want the best for their children, they will find a way. That includes finding a way to fill out the forms necessary to get it for free. The other option is that 7th hour is eliminated all together and they lose the choice period!
Gramma
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 12:51 p.m.
Local, For many families $100 isn't a small fee. If the parents are working during the day, how can they apply for the financial aid for their students. The $100 fees say that only the wealthy should have elective classes through the public schools.
local
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 12:34 p.m.
A 7th hour isn't required either. This is a way for students to take EVERY elective class they want as well as taking the classes required for graduation. If AAPS decided to not provide a 7th hour, then many students would lose out on many of the EXTRA classes they want to take because the graduation required classes would need to be taken in those 6 hours. So this small fee is a way to allow kids/families that want those extra classes to have them.
Nicholas Urfe
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 12:17 p.m.
Thanks for the the excellent coverage and background on this, Amy.
Goober
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 11:56 a.m.
I guess, paying our taxes is not good enough. The AA BOE is trying to find a way to increase revenue on the backs of students and tax payers, instead of controlling and reducing costs. Overhead is too high. Too many bosses, not tied to any value stream. Go figure!
TryingToBeObjective
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 5:29 p.m.
Summer school is $225. it was worth paying for the CONVENIENCE. They could always eliminate the extra seventh hour, change Skyline to semesters (next year?), and then people will have to find something new to complain about. People seem to be or getting that something has to be cut- the district sinking. Your kd doesn't HAVE to take seven classes. It's a choice.
West Side Mom
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 5:10 p.m.
People seem to be forgetting that $100 was what the Board intends to charge this year. Some BOE members (Glenn Nelson) see the charge increasing substiantially in the furture. At $250 or more per class, this could get expensive fast for middle income families with 2 or more kids.
Alan Goldsmith
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 11:51 a.m.
Message to the AAPS Board: How can you be so clueless?
TryingToBeObjective
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 11:49 a.m.
What's sad is this is a lose-lose situation. A struggling district has to deal with a frivolous lawsuit from parents to cheap to pay $100 for an extra perk so that their kids get whatever they want, or, seventh hour could be eliminated entirely if push comes to shove. I would also anticipate that some electives ill be cut in the future- you won't have the option to take the extras, further eliminating the need for seven classes. Will parents sue when their little angel no longer CAN take a class because its been cut from the budget due to the expense of this lawsuit? One thing that is not mentioned in the law is that all students don't need to be accommodated to take each and every course they WANT to take. 84% of the high schoolers manage to fit the courses they need into six course hours in order to graduate, by CHOOSING to do so. This number might be even higher if classes weren't further overcrowded by students WANTING to take an EXTRA class. It's a shame that the greed of the few outweighs the needs of the many.
DCW
Tue, Aug 13, 2013 : 3:10 p.m.
Also may I add, MANY if not all of the "support" classes were seventh hour. That included, Chem Support, Math Support, English/Reading Support. Unfortunately, when cuts are made it's the disadvantaged students that bear the majority of burden. Like someone mentioned, more advantaged students can easily pay for the extra $100 or outside tutoring classes. Obviously, you've never been in the situation to understand that it's not just simply families being "cheap". Believe it or not, some AAPS families live below the poverty line, and expecting a family to pay $100 dollars at the time of registration could be the difference between a bill getting paid that month. As I mentioned above, this could be the case for the students that need seventh hour the most.
DCW
Tue, Aug 13, 2013 : 3:01 p.m.
TTBO - From what I remember at Huron, all students were guaranteed at least 6 hours. As far as seventh hour, some were put in it randomly, and others chose the option of a seventh hour (when you choose your classes you could select a seventh hour or something like that). So it all really depended on the classes you chose and how ambitious you wanted to be. Some classes were only held during seventh hour (not just electives, but advanced classes as well). A kid that took seventh hour every semester could possibly even finish a semester early. As well, for the students that fell behind throughout the years, they could make up classes and hours during seventh hour to catch up. Ultimately, seventh hour served many purposes. It allowed the ambitious kids to be ambitious, it allowed kids with more diverse interest to take more electives, it allowed the struggling students to make up hours. I think it would be a shame to eliminate it.
towncryer
Tue, Aug 13, 2013 : 2:15 p.m.
I accidentally posted this in the wrong spot, so i am repeating it, (seems to happen to me when these responses get long): TTBO: sorry I misread that you have one more child after the senior. I definitely agree that there are too many electives (it's high school not college) and perhaps that is why there seems to be so much trouble with scheduling. It would be interesting to have a story about how scheduling works but it appears all AAPS people sign a confidentiality agreement when it comes to talking to AA.com, lol. I also do not understand why they don't implement smaller learning communities elsewhere. I do think that you are generalizing a stereotype of who uses 7th hour. For me personally, if my child needs a 7th hour class, I guess I will pay it but I just philosophically think it is wrong and it opens up a door I don't like. The conspiracy theorist in me thinks the BOE is just loving all the infighting between parents (a house divided, etc..), takes the heat off of them for putting us in this place to begin with. I also think, while I can afford the fee, people have to put themselves in other people's shoes----there is a lot of stereotyping of people who "can't pay the fee" but have fancy phones and clothes. Anyway, my two cents, which probably isn't worth much, lol.
TryingToBeObjective
Tue, Aug 13, 2013 : 2:05 a.m.
Town cryer, I have an eighth grader as well as a senior. I may irritate some with how I phrase my comments, but I make no apologies, though I wish there was an edit button at times. Community cannot just be moved elsewhere, and function the same. What could be done, is take some of the concepts CHS utilizes, and use them elsewhere, in small learning communities. I thought Skyline would initially be doing some similar things, but it has not. My intent is to get people to think. I read every comment, and at times, I get ten comments from a response I have written, and wish I could go back and rephrase it. It's near impossible to make a comment or have an opinion without criticism, or even to ask a legitimate question. I do not feel that everything at CHS is perfect, but it's the best fit for my kid. And yes, kids can split enroll at Pioneer or Huron or Skyline, but then they miss out on some of what CHS has to offer. They may miss Forum the entire year if they take classes elsewhere in the afternoon. Some classes at CHS are offered only one time- either you get in, or you miss out. Honestly, I think whoever is doing scheduling at Pioneer, Huron, and Skyline needs to figure out a better way to do it. But I also think there are so many electives offered, it makes scheduling a nightmare. There are also advantages to at least trying an online course. Last year, my kid slept in two days a week since he had an online class, and an open class hour. It was a welcome benefit- kids need their rest. Also, since online courses are self paced, kids can work around assignments and tests in their other classes. But you do not know unless you try, and it seems so many want things their way, or no way. Some want others to do the work for them, instead of looking for alternative solutions themselves.
towncryer
Tue, Aug 13, 2013 : 12:01 a.m.
TTBO, I agree with a few of your points, and like you, whatever is decided, it wont effect me. Your children are fortunate to have a passionate parent(s) involved in their education. However, i must say, since this is your last child, and any decisions that happen really wont effect you after this year, I don't understand your vehement inability to see anyone else's viewpoint? And I just disagree with you on the whole Community thing. I'm glad it's a great program and a good niche for kids who may need that type of learning environment, I just think it should be offered to more kids and if everything is going to be on the potential chopping block, I feel like that downtown property has to be considered. What if they decided to sell the building and move the program and a few Community families decided to sue for some reason? Would they be selfish and only thinking of themselves? After all, it's only 500 kids. What percentage is that? Anyway, didn't mean to hijack this into a Community subject, just using it to try and show a different angle/comparison---guess we can agree to disagree... :)
TryingToBeObjective
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 10:53 p.m.
Thanks for the response Kathy. DonBee, I do not have a kid at Skyline, though i did for a short time, and we were quite dissatisfied, in part due to the previous principal and lack of communication, and in part due to the schedule. I try to point out facts, and I'm sure they aren't always perfect, or tactful, but as you well know, there is no edit button. Its frustrating to try to get people to think beyond their own needs, and the most some can do is push the down vote button. Some lend inaccurate information, some lend no information, and some are on another planet with their viewpoints. Yep, I bet I push some hot buttons- but at least it gets people out of their own world to think beyond just their kid. Honestly, I could care less if there's a seventh hour or not, or a school bus or not. I will do whatever it takes to find the best option for my kids, including finding it in our budget to pay extra if need be. I will make sure they get to and from school. I never have expected AAPS to fulfill all of my kids educational needs. I was dissatisfied when our older ones attended Pioneer, and attending CHS instead of Skyline for our current high schooler was a no- brainer. We are not wealthy or elite, and my car has over 100,000 miles on it. Yet constantly CHS is bashed as a rich kid school, by those who never have set foot there. My kid is a senior, and until this coming fall, he has never gotten the classes he wanted. Yet I don't cry and complain about it, and i certainly wouldn't sue over it. We tweaked his schedule a little by him taking a class in summer school, at our expense, again without complaint. I'm glad I only have one kid left to get through high school after this year. I feel fortunate not to have young ones. There are people bickering over the $5,000 food budget of the BOE, but then they won't do their part and pay $100- less than half the cost of a summer school class. It's truly sad how many want a hand out, no matter the repercussions to others.
kathy coles
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 10:01 p.m.
TTBO, as to your question about if the students pick 6/7 classes at Huron. My son picks his classes in the spring - he has to pick the mandatory classes and then he is given the choice of electives and also has to pick his 2d choice for electives. They do not find out their class schedule until registration which this year will be August 21 or 22. The students do not determine what hours/classes they have that is left up to the counselor and admin at their school, they only get to choose the 2 electives they want
Basic Bob
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 9:12 p.m.
"they could have cut high school busing instead of charging for seven classes" Welcome to Hoover, Alabama in the midst of resegregation. More for the haves, less for the have-nots.
DonBee
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 6:55 p.m.
TTBO said: "A struggling district has to deal with a frivolous lawsuit from parents to cheap to pay $100 for an extra perk so that their kids get whatever they want, or, seventh hour could be eliminated entirely if push comes to shove. " 1) AAPS is not struggling - 1 classroom of 30 students generates $420,000 in income or $316,000 more than the teacher costs. It is one of the top funded districts in the state and the midwest. Ann Arbor spends more per student any almost any other public school. 2) The $100 fee was a first year trial balloon - the discussion for 2014-15 was to raise it to $400. 3) The students at Community and Skyline have the ability to earn significantly more credits without a fee, making the district inequitable for the students in the two large high schools. If you look at the economic mix between Community and Huron/Pioneer there is a case for economic discrimination in this fee. 4) It violates not just state law, but the state constitution. TTBO - based on your comments you child(ren) attends Skyline and you are offended by the cuts to Skyline, so you think it is fair that Huron/Pioneer has these fees. Am I correct?
TryingToBeObjective
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 6:29 p.m.
Charles, it was stated that students taking a seventh class for credit recovery would not be charged extra. I do agree that whoever does the scheduling of class times at every high school could do better. I'm not sure whose responsibility that is- does anyone know?
Charles Curtis
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 5:39 p.m.
Maybe if the classes needed were offered in the timeline needed this would be less of an issue. Its not some perk, and some of the 7th hr students are students who had not passed a class and are retaking it. Its not as simple as you make it out to be. My kids have had to take PE which is a waste of a class, even though they all played varsity sports, which were far more PE than the PE course. The AP classes have been cut back as well forcing more students into the basic classes and with some classes having 40 kids in them, how is that fair? Lets see what class sizes are at Community, Skyline, Pioneer and Huron in all the mandated course, how much time are the classes, how many of each are needed, and how much money is spent on the students in each HS for those classes. Bet it is not the same.
TryingToBeObjective
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 5:38 p.m.
I would hope that any aren't of a Huron or Pioneer student could answer my question, but they're too busy downvoting. The truth hurts. I'm trying to be realistic. I could care less if there is a seventh hour or not, except for the act that it costs more for a few kids, impacts the entire district budget, and increases class sizes for the other 84% of the high schoolers who take the state mandated six classes. My question is, are students allowed to register for seven classes initially, or does everyone get into their mandated six, and if space allows, a seventh class is allowed to be added? Do some students get an unfair priority over others with scheduling? For example, say one student gets all seven classes they want- every first choice elective. Does that mean another student only gets three of their preferred choices, or has an open class block in the middle of the day? Scheduling should be equitable for all, with seniors getting top priority, then juniors, and so on.
ViSHa
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 5:27 p.m.
TTBO, I'm honestly not sure if a commenter can answer your question. Possibly AA.com would need to ask a counselor? Or maybe I am misinterpreting your question...
TryingToBeObjective
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 2:48 p.m.
CLX, there are situational hardship waivers. Not an excuse. Yep, they could have cut high school bussing instead of charging for seven classes. And the "perk" of attending CHS goes along with drastically reduced elective offerings, and other cuts. Perhaps you'd prefer block scheduling at Pioneer and Huron in exchange for very few electives?
TryingToBeObjective
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 1:48 p.m.
Can anyone answer the question I asked, or are you too busy down-voting? Do Pioneer and Huron kids sign up for six classes to start with, then add a seventh? Or do the kids who register first get an advantage over others by taking up an extra space in a seventh class before everyone else gets their basic needs met?
CLX
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 1:43 p.m.
Your argument assumes that there were no other cuts possible, which is nonsense. Calling 7th hour a perk is absurd when you have the "perk" of Community for a precious few students. Your argument also assumes that the fees will continue to be nominal, which is extremely unlikely given how quickly the pay-to-play fees rose over just a few years. And your argument does not take into account that there is not equity across the high schools, and Pioneer and Huron students are always on the losing side of things. Don't blame parents -- blame the school board that created this mess and that can't get their priorities straight. They've left themselves wide open for this lawsuit and should in no way be surprised, and have a history of losing suits. Aside from the legalities, it's short-sighted -- why so blatantly announce that AA schools can no longer give you the high quality education that colleges are looking for unless you have the money to pay for it? And scholarships or aid are not the answer - the people who will be squeezed are those who are always squeezed, the ones who don't quite meet the scholarship cut-off.
TryingToBeObjective
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 12:56 p.m.
At CHS, students were allowed to schedule ONLY the six required classes last June at registration. I'm curious as to whether Pioneer and Huron students choose six to start with, until everyone has registered. The 16% who take seven classes may diminish further if they are not initially permitted to take up unneeded space in classrooms until EVERY student gets their basic needs met, before EXTRAS are allowed. Would class sizes be decompressed if ALL students took only the six they need, instead of the seven they want?
local
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : noon
I would agree, the few seem to out rank the majority when it comes to decisions like this. I think the only option is to cut the 7th hour choice. Times are tough and I don't think many families are feeling that quite yet. But ask the employees who continue to give money back so that students can have ALL these opportunities, it starts to become frustrating. If cutting the 7th hour keeps AAPS from paying out on a lawsuit, or maybe having families start to feel the frustration of not having EVERY choice offered, then the decision should be simple. I get a sense AAPS will lose this lawsuit if it goes forward, so do what is necessary and cut this option all together.
thisisnutzz
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 11:29 a.m.
This is gold. Thanks for posting the history of AAPS trying to drive out lower income families. They must assume that if you can't afford to buy your own books/classes, etc, then certainly you couldn't afford a high priced attorney.
towncryer
Tue, Aug 13, 2013 : 2:17 p.m.
oops, posted above comment in wrong place and can't edit.
towncryer
Tue, Aug 13, 2013 : 2:13 p.m.
TTBO: sorry I misread that you have one more child after the senior. I definitely agree that there are too many electives (it's high school not college) and perhaps that is why there seems to be so much trouble with scheduling. It would be interesting to have a story about how scheduling works but it appears all AAPS people sign a confidentiality agreement when it comes to talking to AA.com, lol. I also do not understand why they don't implement smaller learning communities elsewhere. I do think that you are generalizing a stereotype of who uses 7th hour. For me personally, if my child needs a 7th hour class, I guess I will pay it but I just philosophically think it is wrong and it opens up a door I don't like. The conspiracy theorist in me thinks the BOE is just loving all the infighting between parents (a house divided, etc..), takes the heat off of them for putting us in this place to begin with. I also think, while I can afford the fee, people have to put themselves in other people's shoes----there is a lot of stereotyping of people who "can't pay the fee" but have fancy phones and clothes. Anyway, my two cents, which probably isn't worth much, lol.
Z-man
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 3:21 p.m.
While I agree that assessing a fee for the 7th hour is a bad idea, I believe the motive for doing so is to balance their budget, not to "drive out lower income families" as thisisnutzz suggests. This situation has made national news and casts AA in a poor light. Just because it's legal doesn't make it a good idea. It shows poor judgment by the board, and even if it withstands a lawsuit, the costs of defending it could exceed the potential revenue from this fee. The board could have found this amount of money elsewhere by eliminating some administrative waste without impacting those kids who want to take extra classes...a direction we should strive to encourage.
TryingToBeObjective
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 12:45 p.m.
I agree financial aid is not a scholarship, but that's the "term" they use, like its something earned, not defaulted to.
Nicholas Urfe
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 12:16 p.m.
First you get it in. Then you eliminate the scholarship. Also, financial aid is not a scholarship.
TryingToBeObjective
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : noon
What part of "Margolis said AAPS will offer scholarships to students seeking a seventh class if they cannot afford the charge..." did you not understand? Low income families ARE provided for, as they are for Pay to Play. Your point is moot.
CLX
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 11:17 a.m.
Just hoping that this is not the same law firm that advised AAPS that the way they treated substitute teachers some years ago was perfectly legal. That turned out to be very costly for the district, saddling it with not only monetary expenses, but a number of teachers that it did not particularly want.
johnnya2
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 7:01 p.m.
The seventh hour does NOT need to be eliminated, Class sizes need to be set to reasonable levels and if the AAPS position is that they will perform the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM REQUIRED BY LAW, then let every parent know that is what they prefer, and then let parents start moving their children to other schools of choice. One of the reasons people CHOOSE AAPS is because it is better. People choose UM over EMU for many of the same reasons. The other take away from this is how much people are saying "today is so much different than in the past" when in reality the same crap was happening in the 1960's and there were financial difficulties in 1970 (coming from the former super)
TryingToBeObjective
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 12:42 p.m.
Illegal=college. Gotta love autocorrect
TryingToBeObjective
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 12:41 p.m.
This lawsuit impacts all of us, due to the greed of a few. If, for example, high school bussing is cut next year, it may well be due to these people, but it wont affect them at all. I'm trying to make a point that this is impacting the rest of the students who are not greedy, and don't need to have every last class because their parents tell them it's fine to do whatever you want, as long as you get what you want. Will their parents hold their hand at illegal as well? Sue the college if they don't get what they want?
thecompound
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 12:17 p.m.
Or maybe it will be closing Community and those who want their angels to go to Community will leave because mommy and daddy want their little snowflakes to have sushi for lunch everyday. I don't really believe this, but see how it sounds? Have a little dignity in your comments that I more often than not agree with, my goodness.
TryingToBeObjective
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 12:05 p.m.
So when seventh hour is eliminated, it will be due to the parents FILING the lawsuit. If the district shells out funds to defend this case, something else will go. Maybe it will be high school bussing, which of course won't affect those whose angels WANT every class their heart desires and take seven hours, only to have mommy and daddy either provide a car for them to drive home, or pick them up.
NSider
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 11:17 a.m.
Fusfeld was a professor of economics at UoM. I suspect his lawsuit at that time (1966) involved more his involvement in the Democratic party than anything else.
NSider
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 4:46 p.m.
Ah yes, the AA Political Correctness team votes down, again. But I suggest you look at Fusfeld's "The Basic Economics of the Urban Racial Crisis" and determine if his motives were pure when he filed his lawsuit. Or was it research?
Craig Lounsbury
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 11:14 a.m.
maybe the answer is to eliminate 7th hour. Its not required is it?
DonBee
Tue, Aug 13, 2013 : 2:22 p.m.
TTOB - My children's schedule was set by the school. My children only want 6 classes, all required by the State to graduate. They ended up in 7th hour. It is not the parent's decision on taking or not taking a class in 7th hour it is the scheduling system. Many parents don't want a class in 7th hour, since there is no transportation after 7th hour. Because the core classes are now required (22 credits worth) to graduate and 1-6 offers only 24 slots in 4 years, it can make scheduling difficult. There are limited numbers of teachers who teach some of the core classes, and limited numbers of language labs to teach the REQUIRED two years of foreign language. Parents have to work hard to make the schedules for 6 required classes work. At Skyline there is a lot more flexibility because there are 30 slots over 4 years and at Community 28 or 32, depending on how the student works the system. With 7th hour there are 28 slots, but to use all of them now, you have to pay, unlike Skyline or Community. Real fair right?
Life is good in Ann Arbor
Tue, Aug 13, 2013 : 1:05 a.m.
AP Chemistry Lab is during 7th hour. Those of you commenting in the negative seem that you don't have a student in school that takes a 7th hour and so your comments are ignorant.
TryingToBeObjective
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 10:09 p.m.
DonBee, are you certain that the classes in hours 1st through 6th are full with kids taking their only core classes and only six credits? Or are the 16% choosing to take the extra class bumping your kids into seventh hour, and the giving you the added transportation expense home? Are the kids that choose to take seven classes ensuring your kids have less of an opportunity to choose their first six, or does every student get six to start with, then add a seventh class if they choose? A kid isn't charged for a seventh period class, they are charged for taking seven classes. Why can't they run a study hall midday? Do they?
Basic Bob
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 9:05 p.m.
"The 30 credits at Skyline is equivalent to the 24 at the other high schools." Except 24 of Skyline's credits will allow you to graduate and get into college. Not equivalent at all.
DonBee
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 6:47 p.m.
TTBO & Mr. Lounsbury - 7th hour allows reasonable class sizes in many classes. My children have been given 7th hour classes for their "core" classes because the classes in 1st to 6th hours are full, they only want 6 classes and did not pick any electives this year. So they are not taking 7th hour because of music or sport or... They have 7th hour because it balances class sizes. Eliminate it and watch the class sizes jump to the 40 you talk about TTBO.
TryingToBeObjective
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 6:25 p.m.
Visha- no mastery concept at Community. My kid is a senior and has never been able to retake anything. Late homework is docked points, if it is even accepted. IMO, one of the best things about CHS is the relationship between staff and students- respectful, enthusiastic, and some students begin to thrive in subject areas due to creative teaching methods, and just relating to the teacher. It would be great to have more electives to choose from, but it's a trade off. There is also a great deal of acceptance of differences at CHS- kids that might be picked on elsewhere can relax at CHS. My kid also has friends that play sports at all three comprehensive high schools, which is pretty cool as well. There's more of a friendly rivalry.
kuriooo
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 5:56 p.m.
As was mentioned on a previous thread in another article, if the 7th hour is eliminated it may lead to even more inequitable education opportunities. Financially secure families with motivation to do so will find private lessons to fill in the gap. Students from less financially advantaged backgrounds will statistically be less likely to afford private lessons. I'd much rather the fee be assessed and the community find a way to cover the fee for students whose families can't afford the $100.
ViSHa
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 5:33 p.m.
TTBO, can you clear up a "rumor" my child has been told by peers that Community has something similar to Skyline's mastery concept? I personally don't know many Community parents so I am asking honestly, not trying to "troll". TIA
TryingToBeObjective
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 2:53 p.m.
So is your argument for equity among the schools? Because then you'd want trimesters at Pioneer and Huron, and the ridiculous mastery concept. Why settle for only seventh hour? That's still fewer credits than Skyline. Oh, and with trimesters comes the additional $300,000 cut that Skyline took, just to be equitable.
Chester Drawers
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 1:55 p.m.
Gramma, You are absolutely wrong. High school credits are measured in Carnegie Units. 30 credits (Skyline) are worth 6 more Carnegie Units than 24 credits (Pioneer/Huron) as considered by college admissions officers. If the 7th hour is eliminated or becomes 'pay to play,' Huron/Pioneer kids will be getting the real short end of the stick. They already are-can only earn 28 credits compared to 30.
TryingToBeObjective
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 1:31 p.m.
So there's a need to prioritize- take required academics FIRST, then add on extra unneeded electives. One of those life lessons- prioritize and make choices.
ChrisW
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 1:28 p.m.
The reason there's a 7th hour is because there are so many required courses now it would be otherwise impossible for a student to take an elective like choir or orchestra every semester.
TryingToBeObjective
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 1 p.m.
Skyline had to cut an extra $300K in order to keep trimesters. I wonder how big classes at Pioneer and Huron would be if they had to in order to keep seventh hour? 40? 45?
Gramma
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 12:43 p.m.
Goober, Skyline is on a trimester year rather than semester. The 30 credits at Skyline is equivalent to the 24 at the other high schools.
thecompound
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 12:11 p.m.
I think that will certainly come up during the course of the lawsuit.
Goober
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 11:52 a.m.
Why does the Skyline curriculum generate 30 credit hours and the Pioneer curriculum generate 24 credit hours? All affected school curriculums should follow the same process in the AA school district.
thecompound
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 11:08 a.m.
Are PTO fees mandatory at the high schools? I fear for groups like that because usually when there is a new cost, something else loses out, whether it be donated supplies, scholarship donations, etc...
shine16
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 2:16 p.m.
thecompound...I understand why you would ask that question. From the looks of the envelope you receive in the mailing, it sure looks mandatory. I think that's the intention....
ViSHa
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 12:35 p.m.
Some families who donated more in the past may decide that extra money will go to the fee, that is where they will lose out, especially since there are many things to pay at the beginning of the year--yearbook, pictures, sports fees, etc..especially if one has more than one child in high school.
TryingToBeObjective
Mon, Aug 12, 2013 : 11:33 a.m.
PTO fees have never been mandatory. Also, some families donate more than requested.