Saline Area Schools to draft Pledge of Allegiance policy
Because it appears the Michigan House of Representatives is not going to pass a bill mandating the Pledge of Allegiance this calendar year, the Saline Board of Education has decided to draft its own policy for consideration.
Giving students in Saline the opportunity to recite the Pledge of Allegiance has been the primary goal of Trustee David Holden's. When he first brought the request before the board in January, he said it was a campaign promise he made to voters prior to being elected in November.
The Saline schools Board of Education will draft a policy mandating students recite the "Pledge of Allegiance" daily for the district to consider enacting.
File photo
Rep. Mark Ouimet, R-Scio Township, told board members then that a bill requiring students across the state to say the Pledge of Allegiance daily passed in the Senate in November. He said members of the House were waiting for the bill to come out of committee so they could vote.
"In my recent conversations with legislators, I've been told the current legislation — what's been proposed — most likely is not going to be enacted this year. So I would like for us to take a look at that policy again," Holden said at Tuesday's board meeting.
Most of the board was in favor of its Policy Committee at least attempting to draft a policy addressing the pledge. However, there was some confusion about what the outcome would be.
"We live in a great county … and it gives all of us the opportunity to do whatever we want," said Trustee Craig Hoeft. "I don't think the 12 seconds or whatever it takes (to say the pledge) is too much to ask (of teachers and students). "I'm in favor of at least getting at the policy and seeing where this will go."
Several board members asked Holden what he envisions the policy would say. He said he does not see a need to severely alter the district's current policy pertaining to ceremonial processes and observances. He simply would like the district to change the policy language to say "shall" instead of its current language of "may," which makes a daily show of patriotism more voluntary, Holden said.
He added conceptually, he also would want to add language that gives the building principals the latitude to determine how reciting the pledge best fits into the building's typical school day. So the policy would not necessarily mandate when — whether at the start of the day, lunchtime or the end of the day, etc. — the school was required to carve out time, Holden said.
President Lisa Slawson wondered about the remainder of the current policy, which also says students and teachers can participate in other patriotic displays.
The exact language of the existing "ceremonies and observances" policy is:
Classrooms may open the school day with appropriate exercises. Such may include the pledge to the flag, patriotic songs, and reading of excerpts of material, which will implement the development of moral values, patriotism, and high standards of conduct. A student who expresses a religious objection to repeating the pledge to the flag shall not be required to participate. However, such students shall not cause a disturbance or interfere with the participation of others.
Some board members advocated for leaving the "may include" language intact.
But Slawson said this is confusing.
"People think changing one or two words is minimizing a myriad of consequences, but really it is opening a floodgate we would have to deal with," she said. "It generates just a ton of questions: Will the principal read it over the intercom? Do I do it in my classroom? What if I forget, am I in trouble? ... According to the current policy, it seems like if I'm a teacher and I'm less patriotic I could play 'Born in the U.S.A' by Bruce Springsteen."
Trustees agreed there are a number of details to be worked out at the Policy Committee level before a draft could be brought back to the full board.
Holden hoped the Policy Committee could address the Pledge of Allegiance at tonight's meeting and present a draft as an action item at the regular Board of Education meeting in two weeks. Slawson said that timeline is not doable and goes against other board policies that require attorney involvement, as well as staff and community input prior to adopting new policies.
Danielle Arndt covers K-12 education for AnnArbor.com. Follow her on Twitter @DanielleArndt or email her at daniellearndt@annarbor.com.
Comments
justcary
Thu, Dec 20, 2012 : 8:15 p.m.
It is not MORAL to require children to recite dogmatic prose! Especially since they are not taught to parse the grammar or comprehend the meaning of what they are saying! It is un-American to force this on free people. Don't question my patriotism!
A Friend
Sun, Sep 16, 2012 : 2:07 p.m.
So many great comments by people who know their history and their law. :) Part of this issue seems to be sentimental and of respect for some, without contemplating what "Mandate" really means in the giant picture. So overall, I think differently on this than I first had. We had an opportunity to learn it when we were kids, and now kids don't have the same opportunity because it isn't part of their morning ritual. It may not have meant much to us at the time, but we can look back on it and reflect on what it means to us now. Not that we do much... I had all but forgotten all about the Ole Pledge til this article came out. I had it memorized, like any other kid, but only now am I engaged in a heated debate over it's value.... and it's been a great adult discussion! But I don't think the discussion probably goes on much at home unless we're reminded to do so. There's math homework and Scooby Doo to watch on TV after all... I don't think it necessary to recite every day at school. I don't believe in a mandate that says we HAVE to. (I get the Fascism part...) But perhaps we should spend some quality time on it.... maybe incorporate the routine for awhile, as part of a unit on history, or on patriotic holidays to stimulate discussion on what it means to be American. Problem is, if they don't say it enough, they won't remember the words at the school assembly.... :) Maybe they already do this?? My child is only in 2nd grade, so I guess I'll be watching! :) And hey, we still have to sing the National Anthem before every sports event so we're kinda covered on the"Nationalism" anyway... I pledge my allegiance to Team(s) Saline! :)
aamom
Mon, Sep 17, 2012 : 2:35 p.m.
I had mentioned up above that my elementary children say it everyday in school, even without a mandate. I questioned whether Saline kids also do this. The author of this article replied that Scott Graden said most elementary rooms in Saline already do say the pledge. Therefore, I find this much ado about nothing.
A Friend
Sat, Sep 15, 2012 : 1:36 p.m.
And that's a great gift in our freedom.
A Friend
Sat, Sep 15, 2012 : 1:33 p.m.
I don't claim to know if the policy is right or wrong, so I asked the question on whether or not it's "forcing" them or not. I guess it is... But it's a simple little AM salute to America. They aren't asking kids to put on a uniform, and salute "HEIL"...... Are we being overly dramatic? Or is it really just the beginning of the end of what freedom really is for some of you? I was just slammed for saying maybe kids would like the routine of saying the pledge... For some, "routine" means brainwashing them for easy induction into the super army conspiracy of the future. So I ask the question again, so someone like Chase or mkm17 or BHarding can maybe give a thoughtful response. Saline is wanting to teach a little part of history, and show kids about having pride in where they live. Is that really wrong? OK, so don't "force" them to say it every morning... Maybe that really isn't necessary. But shouldn't they learn it? Talk about and understand it? Give a prize to the first kid who can memorize it...? Shouldn't we be glad someone cares about remembering to include this important part of history in their new little lives? They will have plenty of time to find out the atrocities committed by the human race... and right here in America. We still have slavery to gear up for after all....and homelessness today. It think the difference for you is that you feel your "freedoms" are being taken away by not having the choice of whether or not to say it everyday.... Then others feel it's that very freedom that is being honored by saying the pledge.... All the pledge really means is that you believe these freedoms are worth having, worth keeping and that you're proud to be a part of it.... right? I'm missing the sinister edge to all of this I guess... I just don't get freaked out about the whole "God" thing... because in America, God gets to mean anything to anyone individually.... or mean nothing, an
A Friend
Sat, Sep 15, 2012 : 1:35 p.m.
And that's a great gift in our freedom.
LXIX
Sat, Sep 15, 2012 : 12:52 p.m.
As a little kid I always thought it magical that the flag could be invisible under God. As a teenager, there was no pledge. At the time the flag was torn between a corrupt government and a angry public voice. The American head was impeached by its patriotic citizens and the flag's allegiance ultimately restored. Those are the same representatives who refuse to permit a role call count of all democratic votes cast in Lansing so that they can rush throught their "indivisible" global-minded agenda without any personal accountability being held for it. I'm not concerned about corrupt leadership anywhere anymore - I know the logic of this flag - in time - will ultimately win.
A Friend
Sat, Sep 15, 2012 : 2:07 p.m.
LOL I thought it was invisible too... and still think it's magical... And I'm so disappointed in our government. There seems to be no one who's concerned with doing what's right for the common good. They only want to BE the "right" ones, and be on a "winning" team....
conservative
Sat, Sep 15, 2012 : 2:16 a.m.
If you don't pledge allegiance to this flag, then what flag are you pledging allegiance too??? This is America and everyone should be proud to be living here, if not then you don't belong. Pride in our country is what made us so great to begin with. I challenge anyone who opposes this opinion to look anyone who has ever served in the armed forces in the eye and tell them exactly how they think that pledging allegiance to our flag isn't something we all shouldn't be doing, regardless if we are in school or not!!
Middle America
Sat, Sep 15, 2012 : 7:06 a.m.
Forcing American citizens to recite the pledge of allegiance is not exactly something anyone should equate with freedom. All the people I know who have served in the military are not whiny like you describe. This is America. You don't like freedom? Get out.
Middle America
Fri, Sep 14, 2012 : 11:51 p.m.
Nice to see the regular commenters all chiming in and claiming that being forced to do something is freedom. Hooray for nationalism!
A Friend
Fri, Sep 14, 2012 : 5:08 p.m.
I don't know about changing the policy, but I thought it was neat that my Saline Schools daughter received a handout to color with the Pledge of Allegiance on it. She thought it was pretty cool that i knew it too and that she could learn it "by heart". I was also pretty amazed that I'd remembered it after all these years! :) It never hurt me to know it or say it in school..... I'm proud I did. And I'm a leftie folks, I don't care to be "politically correct" worrying about a Nation "under God.." The kids aren't worried about "God" issues, any more than they worry about gym class... or the content of a Christmas Carol.... While we're all worked up about saying the words "Jesus" or "God" out loud, there's a whole lotta great music being forgotten about in schools. Trust me, the kids don't care, they love the tune.... they love the rhyme... they love their country more than we do! And I'd rather that my kid knows her history and decides what to do with it for herself. Forcing them to say the pledge every day......I dunno..... is it necessary? Is it really "forcing"?? Kids like routines,. they might enjoy it. Why not ask them........... One thing I do know, adults ruin everything.......
A Friend
Sat, Sep 15, 2012 : 2:01 p.m.
Fascism IS damn well worth being angry over... and finding where we draw our lines is key, but can't we do it here without ripping each other a new one....... ? See, I had much more in common with you than you thought. I was just asking questions..............
Middle America
Sat, Sep 15, 2012 : 1:50 p.m.
And yes, I am angry when it comes to fascism.
A Friend
Sat, Sep 15, 2012 : 1:48 p.m.
Tell you what to do? You're joking right... Well, I think we have found common ground. I don't want the Government to mandate it, and I don't want overzealous Nationalism, and I don't so much like Texas.... But I would like the kids to learn their history.... know what the pledge stands for, and have an opportunity to THINK about it for themselves so they can have an intelligent debate with someone like you in the future.
Middle America
Sat, Sep 15, 2012 : 1:28 p.m.
Don't tell me what to do. Forcing anyone into reciting a pledge IS brainwashing. "They aren't asking them to put on a uniform, boots and say HEIL here... aren't we being a little dramatic?" No. Where is the line drawn? Sorry, but I'll stick with freedom. If you want the government to come and tell you that you must recite a pledge daily, that is cool, but I wouldn't want to. Finally, sorry for pointing out that Texas is a detriment to the country.
A Friend
Sat, Sep 15, 2012 : 12:39 p.m.
Gee "Middle America" you sure are sound angry.. what is your deal? I don't claim to know if the policy is right or wrong, so I asked the question.... It's a simple little am salute to America, and you're turning it into a brainwashing for easy induction into the new super army conspiracy of the future. They aren't asking them to put on a uniform, boots and say HEIL here... aren't we being a little dramatic? They are teaching them a little part of history, and showing them about having pride in where they live. OK, so don't "force" them to say it every morning... learn it - talk about it, give a prize to the first kid who can memorize it and be glad someone gives a crap about remembering to include it in their "history books". And FYI I was born in TX and most of my family down there are too conservative for my taste. But I certainly enjoy the debate with them, which seems more than you are willing to give. You just want to tell everyone what idiots they are....
Middle America
Sat, Sep 15, 2012 : 7:10 a.m.
"Kids like routines,. they might enjoy it." You should move to Texas. The people who write the textbooks for their schools would love you.
sasquatch
Fri, Sep 14, 2012 : 2:47 p.m.
Scylding: I agree that the tone of the majority of aa.com posters is quite acidic, on both sides. I try to stop reading them but like most, it is a trainwreck I can't seem to look away from. I respect your opinion and tone as well, even though we may be on different sides of some issues. So the crux of the argument is the difference between these two sentences (your original sentence with my addition of the proposed change): Current wording: The pledge-minded students MAY be given the opportunity to recite while those who object are still free to refrain. or Proposed wording: The pledge-minded students SHALL be given the opportunity to recite while those who object are still free to refrain. I guess my question is does that change really lead to the intended goal? I feel like they are pretty synonymous. I don't know if SHALL has enough teeth to actually change behavior in the classrooms, or prompt teachers to change the status quo. It seems like splitting hairs. As to those who want to desperately say the pledge, perhaps they can congregate around the flag pole a few minutes before school. I have no issue against the pledge or students reciting it, I'm just not sure it belongs in the classroom. Which is where we obviously disagree.
Scylding
Fri, Sep 14, 2012 : 2:16 p.m.
@Sasquatch: I was at the school board meeting when this was first on the docket. A number of students spoke passionately in favor of the change, saying they were not being given the opportunity to say the pledge now, but wanted to be given that opportunity. No objectors spoke. As the policy stands, teachers are under no obligation to offer the recitation, so few to none do (most likely none). Only under the changed policy would all the pledge-minded students be given the opportunity to recite while those who object are still free to refrain. Thus, in other words, only under the changed policy would all students get to do what they want instead of only the objectors getting their druthers.
sasquatch
Fri, Sep 14, 2012 : 2:08 p.m.
Scylding: I understand your point #1. I think the other examples you bring up have more substance to the district (safety with painting curbs, etc) rather than worrying about the wording of the policy. But yes, these things do need discussion. I remember the discussion trying to change the wording of the discrimination policy in years past. Your point #2, if no child is going to be compelled to do anything different, why change the wording from "may" (which promotes it being voluntary) to "shall?" Why bother with it? It is already set in place to be voluntary. And it seems most are volunteering not to do it. Seems like a waste of time dealing with something that has been in place for years. All the folks in favor of the pledge should have a flag at home (obviously) and can take care of it before heading to school. After all, character is what shows when no one else is looking.
Scylding
Fri, Sep 14, 2012 : 2:22 p.m.
@sasquatch: I responded substantively to your questions in a separate post, but let me say, here, I appreciate the civility and reasonableness of your response and questions. I don't agree with you, but I do appreciate your thoughtfulness and positive overall tone.
Scylding
Fri, Sep 14, 2012 : 1:14 p.m.
Two main threads in all the objectors' arguments. 1) This is a distraction and is preventing the board from tackling more important issues. 2) Forcing kids to recite a pledge is Hitleresque. Regarding thread 1, by that argument, no issue of a fine-tuning nature should ever be discussed at a board meeting...ever. Changing traffic flow in the parking lot? No discussion allowed. Whether to paint a school-sidewalk curb bright yellow so people won't trip? No discussion allowed. Come on folks! If we were to refuse all board discussion and decisions that aren't as earth-shattering as union contracts and such, we would be dysfunctional. That argument is a ruse. Regarding thread 2, no child would be compelled to do anything by this alteration of the policy. Any child could opt out of reciting some or all of the pledge at any point. So all this talk about authoritarian regimes and violations of freedom of speech...a bunch of meaningless noise. I didn't see anything compelling in either thread. I'm disappointed in all you Ann Arbor progressives...you usually do much better than this!
janeqdoe
Fri, Sep 14, 2012 : 11:05 a.m.
Mandated use of the bellamy salute can't be too far behind
proudtobeme
Fri, Sep 14, 2012 : 3:19 a.m.
It just seems like there are more important issues that the board should be spending their time on.
Charles
Fri, Sep 14, 2012 : 3:06 a.m.
I teach my sons about how this debate played out when I was growing up in the south back in the 80s. The School Board made some big to do about mandating kids stand up and say the pledge because they'd noticed a wain in patriotism, and we (the kids) just wouldn't do it. We felt like we were being ordered to pledge to something we didn't necessarily agree to. I want my kids to understand that today's patriotism demands you stand up for your rights, included the right to register your displeasure with the direction this country is going and where our politicians are taking us.
Scylding
Fri, Sep 14, 2012 : 1:49 p.m.
@Charles, I say we give all the kids in Saline the opportunity to stuff their hands in their pockets, frown, and refuse to open their mouths during the pledge, just like you apparently did! What a great attitude you had. Wonder what a vet who has lost part of his face would think of it. Anyway, it'll be awesome! These kids can learn from you and "register their displeasure" by doggedly focusing on themselves as the center of the universe and being spoiled brats with an inflated sense of self-importance and a brand of patriotism focused inwardly on self instead of outwardly on their fellow man. We'll teach 'em!
Fat Bill
Fri, Sep 14, 2012 : 2:19 a.m.
Way to go Holden! Stay focused on trivial nonsense....much easier than dealing with meaningful issues like sustainable funding...please find a different hobby!
Jim
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 9:23 p.m.
Great Article and I hope that the Saline School Board does go through with this. The saddest part is the 423 People that voted "No, Schools should not mandate displays of patriotism ever." It's disappointing that so many people feel this way.
Unusual Suspect
Fri, Sep 14, 2012 : 1:30 p.m.
To be fair, the choices offered by the poll were not simply "Yes" and "No," but were instead the typical idiotic, editorializing choices usually offered by this absolute mess of a "news" source.
nickcarraweigh
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 6:41 p.m.
I hope this is intended to augment, and not to replace, the Blood Oath To Satan I understand is in current use, at least at the elementary grade level. The Oath seems to have struck the initial spark behind this well-intended do-good proposal.
Scylding
Fri, Sep 14, 2012 : 2:30 p.m.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it, nick old boy... Slam dunk, Suspect! ROFL!
arborani
Fri, Sep 14, 2012 : 2:10 p.m.
@Suspect: I may not agree with some of your posts, but that comment *is* funny. Thanks for the LOL.
Unusual Suspect
Fri, Sep 14, 2012 : 1:28 p.m.
"I hope this is intended to augment, and not to replace, the Blood Oath To Satan" No, students are not required to join the Democrat party..
TAG
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 4:12 p.m.
If I am at a locations and the the pledge is being recited, I participate (although I usually leave the "under god" part off if I'm not caught up in the rythme) -- BUT, if the reciting of the pledge were to be mandated, I would refuse.
Scylding
Fri, Sep 14, 2012 : 1 p.m.
And you would have the right to refuse under this policy, so what's the problem?
Rork Kuick
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 3:43 p.m.
"However, such students shall not cause a disturbance or interfere with the participation of others." Which of these would qualify? 1) Turns back to flag. 2) Fails to recite in same cadence as others, going too quickly or slowly. 3) Loudly and distinctly omitting "under god" as in "one nation, INDIVISIBLE". 4) Saluting the flag, with Bellamy salute (for those that still don't know, it's the one we associate with Nazi's) as was often required before Dec 22, 1942, when Congress amended the Flag Code. It would be a sign that you get the irony of the ritual. "Unjust laws exist: shall we be content to obey them, or shall we endeavor to amend them, and obey them until we have succeeded, or shall we transgress them at once?" - Thoreau.
D
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 2:34 p.m.
I think it's fine to say the pledge of allegiance at school, but kids shouldn't be forced to say the "under God" part if they don't want to, it's their personal choice!
loran
Tue, Sep 3, 2013 : 2:33 p.m.
As long as my kids also have the freedom to say "under gods", or "under NO god at all", I am fine with it.
A Friend
Sat, Sep 15, 2012 : 4:38 p.m.
But isn't the nice thing about God in America that it can mean anything to anyone? Let them choose their idea of what it means to all be under "God". Is it unity? Is it love? Is it the ultimate freedom we all hope for? Is it nothing? Kinda makes for a nice personal discussion with ourselves.... :)
Scylding
Fri, Sep 14, 2012 : 12:57 p.m.
And that, D, is why the recitation is not planned to be compulsory, as the article makes abundantly clear. Yes, the opportunity to recite would have to be offered, but any child can choose not to participate for any reason.
HaeJee
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 2:33 p.m.
Giving students an opportunity and mandating students to recite the pledge are two different things. Personally, I think this is all a waste of time. In West Virigina State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943), the United States Supreme Court struck down a West Virginia statute that required both students and teachers to recite the Pledge of Allegiance. The Supreme Court to this day, has not overturned its ruling. The reason why you can NOT force students in public school to recite the pledge of allegiance is due to the controversial adding of "under God" that President Eisenhower added in 1954 to the pledge of allegiance.
Rork Kuick
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 5:16 p.m.
CherylJean: they are trying to skirt that issue by making it not be compulsory, at least that's what the words will say. It might still feel pretty coercive. That's a legal detail.
CherylJean
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 4:30 p.m.
Perhaps the reason is incorrect, but if the law still stands then the school board shouldn't even be considering making a policy change. Maybe they need to do some research on the case before they make a mistake.
Rork Kuick
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 3:17 p.m.
It's not cause of the under god part, you are making that up. The case you site is 1943. "under god" was not in the pledge until 1954. Writing for the majority, Justice Jackson eloquently stated: "If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein." "Compulsory unification of opinion" was declared antithetical to the first amendment. As you can see here though, lots of people want it, and seem blind to the irony.
quetzalcoatl
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 2:27 p.m.
Those of us busily keeping our heads down while the threatening shadow of Greater Saline looms ever closer will be happy to let them have their way, if only they keep their watermelon mutilation ceremonies to themselves. Think Munich, 1938.
nickcarraweigh
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 2:22 p.m.
This is fine, as far as it goes, but what about the imposition of Sharia law and Godless socialism by United Nations troops invading our fine country? Clearly, the Saline proposal does not go nearly far enough in banking the patriotic fires burning so urgently in the few.
newsboy
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 1:29 p.m.
I'm for the pelage; but I will only recite it to the original flag of the thirteen colonies. The other "sprawl states" are just cheap knock-offs!
brb11
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 1:07 p.m.
"He simply would like the district to change the policy language to say "shall" instead of its current language of "may," which makes a daily show of patriotism more voluntary, Holden said." The irony is so thick, it's almost painful.
Unusual Suspect
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 12:45 p.m.
I am big of a flag-waver as you can find, I cry when I sing the National Anthem and ponder the number of lives that were sacrificed for me, I lament the left is trying to create a generation void of an understanding of the real meaning of patriotism, and I loathe the fact progressives are causing potentially-irreversible cultural decline, but I don't go for mandatory reciting of the Pledge. I am in favor of the schools teaching the meaning of it, providing the moment for it, with all students standing, but reciting it only if they choose, and including or not including the "under God" as each chooses. Those who don't should remain silent. Teachers should enforce this silence and insist on a respectful environment during this time. This is nothing more nor less than we teach and expect from the exchange students we have hosted, and is the same respect I show when visiting other countries when they sing their anthem or voice a similar recitation. I would never sit while they all stand and sing their anthem; I stand to show respect for their country and their dedication to it.
aggatt
Sat, Sep 15, 2012 : 7:19 p.m.
hey scylding, my good friend is a veteran who did multiple tours in Iraq. He's of the mindset that one of the best things about the US is choice--aka not mandated pledges. He would have zero issue with someone choosing not to say the pledge. The pledge doesn't mean much anyways, we should really have kids recite the constitution. I actually doubt he would even say the pledge, at least not the "under god" part.
Scylding
Fri, Sep 14, 2012 : 12:52 p.m.
Very well said, Unusual Suspect! I would love to see some of these commenters sitting next to a wounded vet at a public function where the Pledge is recited. What would they do when that young vet struggles to his prosthetic feet and recites the pledge with his hand across his heart? Sit there and fume with their arms crossed and their brow knit? Yeah, right. Whenever I encounter a service member, I shake his or her hand and tell them, "Thank you for your sevice to this country!" How could one say that to a guy like that service member after sitting there like a spoiled child, all angry about a pledge of allegience to the country he got his legs blown off for? The ingratitude of the spoiled left...unbelievable.
ypsilanti
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 12:41 p.m.
I have never fully understood how anyone who believes in the constitutional right to free speech could endorse the government (public school) requiring anyone, particularly schoolchildren, to say specific words in a specific order, regardless of whether they are patriotic, pro-U.S. or not. Seems to me to be quite inconsistent with the very concept of constitutionally protected freedom of speech and at best a mixed message for an educator to deliver. Maybe one of the self-avowed patriots or a lawyer who favors this could explain how this is reconciled both constitutionally and educationally.
Scylding
Fri, Sep 14, 2012 : 12:44 p.m.
You need to buy into the right to read better. There is no effort here to require children to say anything. The only thing being required is that the opportunity to say the pledge is offered once per day. Any child can opt out for any reason. There is no way to construe this as a violation of freedom of speech, or better said, a violation of the freedom NOT to speek.
clownfish
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 12:46 p.m.
It makes them "feel" better. They despise socialists, but want mandated reading of a pledge written by a socialist. They despise government control, but want the government to mandate a pledge. They want freedom of THEIR religion, but want to force little kids to accept their God. get it?
Chase Ingersoll
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 12:21 p.m.
Post the oath of obligation to the Constitution above the blackboard and let the union member teacher as the "public official" of the classroom, get up in front of them every morning and repeat the oath. Forget the pledge. I won't say the pledge. It's a lie and any teenager knows it is not true. Making someone say something is just as wrong as prohibiting them from speaking. And when authorities make new citizens repeat daily, something that is not true, it only undermines thinking people's respect for authority. Chase Ingersoll
OLDTIMER3
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 12:10 p.m.
First Macabre , that would be defacing the bills which is illegal. And for all the ones complaining about being forced to say the pledge. No where is it saying they HAVE TO SAY it. It is saying it will be offered to say. Nothing says they can't just leave out the words under God. And when other countries are forcing their kids to do it not given a choice.
vg550
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 11:31 a.m.
When was it taken out of the morning school routine? I remember when I was in school (a very long time ago), the Pledge of Allegiance was the first thing we did in class. It should have never been done away with in the first place. We all had pride in our country....... most of us still do.
Brad
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 11:24 a.m.
Maybe Saline should just secede from Washtenaw County and join up with their brethren in Livingston County. A much better fit I'd say.
Floyd
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 10:26 a.m.
We do live in a great county! Washtenaw uber alles!
Cathy
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 9:55 a.m.
And because people fought for the idea that the people control the government, the government should step in and mandate that all the people have to recite a loyalty oath?
Lisa
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 8:02 a.m.
I believe this is the United States o America,Home of the US Flag !I had to say it every morning in school. Land of the free Home of the brave.One Nation under God .All of a sudden a child cannot pray at lunch, a child cannot pledge the allegiance to our Flag.Everyday people in our military are killed for our freedom .If I went to another country I would have to follow their laws , live by their rules and doctrines Yes land of the free .YES anyone can come and we offend them by our daily lives ! NO Once a year I go to Secretary of States the test is in how many languages would I get that in their country NO !So can we have our country back and live like we did before and teach our children the government i which we live in and why we have the Pledge of Allegiance to our Flag?This was part of our United States heritage taken away but only taught at home. How are teachers suppose to explain this one cut iout of the books in history, politics, religion.
Aaron Wolf
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 3:22 a.m.
How about just focusing on the virtuous ideals that our country holds and inspiring kids to willfully express their support? The lesson needs to be to believe in things for their just value, not because you are mandated to say a pledge or ashamed not to.
greg, too
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 2:58 a.m.
I think if we get to the point that we have to hammer home patriotism in our kids by making them stand and do something they don't quite understand, then maybe we have a bigger problem. I am fine with having them recite the pledge as I seem to remember having to do it in school when I was a kid and it didn't harm me at all. But saying words that I did not truly grasp also didn't make me any more patriotic than I might have been if we didn't perform it, so I hope it is coupled with a proper historical education as well to teach them the history of their country. I would be fine having my son stand for a minute and recite this. But, maybe it would make sense that instead of theatrics, maybe we just increase the amount of civics classes that are required? Teach them about how their country works, about how the legislative or electoral processes work? I would be more happy about raising properly informed citizens instead of those who can recite the pledge.
Scylding
Fri, Sep 14, 2012 : 12:36 p.m.
I'm all for educating the kids about the pledge along with having them recite it. It seems to me that a lot of "adults" commenting here could use the education, too, however. If they read the Declaration of Independence, they would see that God is referenced no less than 4 times, and that the framers believed that our rights came from Him, not from the government. With that understanding, it is not indoctrination to acknowledge God in a pledge, which, again, is optional. The only requirement is that it be offered. No child has to participate. But yes, by all means, let's teach the kids about the history of this nation, and why patriotism is not a bad thing, but a very good thing.
arborani
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 2:29 a.m.
All this has me harking back to Joseph Heller's "Catch-22", the hilarious Loyalty Oath chapter. For those of you who follow me on this, "Gimme Eat."
7718
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 2:24 a.m.
it sounds like some people would rather teach the children how to burn the flag instead. Lots of unhappy people here, cheer up!
greg, too
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 3:01 a.m.
how about we teach them about the electoral process? how the legislative process is supposed to work (not how it works now)? or maybe about our country's history? if making them recite a minute and change of the pledge makes you happy, then have em do it. but i would rather see them become informed citizens...which to me if significantly more patriotic.
snoopdog
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 1:48 a.m.
Thank you Dave Holden for being a man of your word, most of us in this school district appreciate everything you have done in your first year of serving along with Dave Zimmer. There will soon be two more level headed board members joining you and their names are not Friese and Nagpal. It is very sad but all too predictable to see the AnnArborite's already comparing saying our pledge of allegiance to Nazi Germany. I am very thankful that the kool aid flu stays in Ann Arbor and does not make its way to Saline. Good Day
a2citizen
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 2:12 a.m.
Actually, it's none of our business. We have more important issues anyway. Like parking, pedestrian crossings and dog parks.
Dave66
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 1:32 a.m.
With liberty and justice for all? "Liberty" means freedom from government coercion or control. The government coercing children to say that they are free from government coercion is beyond hilarious. I enjoy my irony as much as the next guy, but this is just effing *awesome*.
Ed Krupa
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 1:16 a.m.
Who can possibly object to a pledge to honor the country, its principles and the Constitution. Have we become so politically correct as to lose our moral compass. The pledge is not a pointless waste of time M suggests. We are proud of the country and its heritge.
greg, too
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 3:06 a.m.
I think most parents object because we want them to learn more about the country, its faults and successes, than what can be gleaned from a minute and change pledge. Leave out the "under god" and it still is just a ceremonial act. I want education, not ceremony. But if a minute of ceremony will lead to more classes and education on how the country works, warts and all, then sign me up.
Classof2014
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 1:58 a.m.
I don't think they object because they refuse to honor the country, they object to it because it has the words "under God" in it. I agree with them. I don't believe in God
sh1
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 1:32 a.m.
I think it's the people who respect the principles this country was founded on, of freedom of speech and pursuit of happiness, who object to mandated pledges.
Robert Katz
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 12:54 a.m.
If as I do, you say the pledge when you wake up, before all meals, hum it in the car, and of course prior to watching any sporting event (since displays of patriotism are required at ALL sporting events) isn't this a bit of overkill?
antikvetch
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 12:48 a.m.
I am far too enlightened to believe in such nonsense. See my black beret and goatee? I don't eat meat! AND I still smoke cigarettes! A true citizen of the world...
BHarding
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 12:19 a.m.
I pledged allegiance in two countries as a kid. As others have said, it meant very little to me. But, now, it really bothers me to think in our free country we'd be indoctrinating kids with "under God". Maybe I'm still riled up because I just watched Jesus Camp last night. Give kids the tools and encouragement to learn about what matters. Learning how to think is more important than almost anything.
Top Cat
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 11:58 p.m.
I had to recite it every day as a kid and it meant something to me then and now. The comments here are just plain sad.
bobslowson
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 12:46 p.m.
This explains why so called "Patriot" is trying to bring Obama into a SALINE SCHOOLS ISSUE. Ridiculous.
Patriot
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 2:37 a.m.
This explains Obama's Hope & Change where he now has 23 million unemployed, $16 Trillion in national debt and growing $4 billion more a day and $4.00 gasoline and the liberals say that is a "good job".
snoopdog
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 1:51 a.m.
I can tell you are sad Top Cat, you are normally very humorous. This make me sad ! Good Day
notob
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 1:08 a.m.
I'm with you. These people won't be happy until every meaningful piece of American culture is gone.
sh1
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 12:15 a.m.
Do you still recite it every day?
hmsp
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 11:38 p.m.
Mike worries: "Once this is lost and we become a country where everyone has their own idea of what this country should be..." So any thought of improvement is unpatriotic? Like that G*d D**n Commie, MLK, perhaps? Give me a break!
arborani
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 11:37 p.m.
Kneejerk jingoism.
hmsp
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 11:35 p.m.
Interesting how many commenters equate "freedom" with being forced to recite the pledge. "My Country, Right or Wrong," may work in N Korea, but I want nothing to do with that.
OLDTIMER3
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 12:18 p.m.
No one is being forced to say anything!
Woodchuck
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 11:04 p.m.
Just great. Some kids can't get into honors and AP classes they want to take because they are full and we can't come up with the resources to expand them. Lots of families are struggling to come up with the "pay to play" fees for extracurriculars and athletics. Money for books, lab equipment field trips, music programs, etc. is almost nonexistent. And our school board is wasting their time on this distraction. Based on his comments during his campaign I had concerns about David Holden. He has definitely stooped down to my most pessimistic expectations. We need a school board focused on academic excellence and not on trying to score a few political points.
Cathy
Fri, Sep 14, 2012 : 10:18 p.m.
Woodchuck: this is just another Republican smokescreen to distract voters from Voodoo Economics and tax cuts for the super wealthy. The comments here demonstrate what an emotional issue the Pledge is, and the GOP knows that it can entice the not-wealthy to vote against their own economic interests.
CherylJean
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 5 p.m.
Oldtimer3 - Can you tell us where your niece goes to school so we can compare the amount of school taxes assessed in that district compared to Saline? No, they DON'T HAVE TO PLAY, but sports are school activities supported by our tax dollars in a public school and they should not be unaffordable. Not being able to get into honors/ AP classes because they are full is certainly not good for students who have the talent, and if this is an ongoing problem it should have a high priority for being resolved before they flee to other districts or charter schools. The pay-to-play fees are too high and there was an article recently posted in The Saline Post citing the fee increases year-over year. It seems the issue has been somewhat ignored by the Board because people let them just keep raising them without much input. If they continue raising those fees as they have even in a poor economy, they will be over $600 before the freshmen graduate.
OLDTIMER3
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 12:23 p.m.
My neice goes to a school here in Michigan that if she doesn't hurry to class she has to set on the floor because there aren't enough desks to go around and the classes are so over crowed. And you complain about not being able to get into honors or AP classes. And they don't HAVE TO play if they can't afford it. I only played one sport in school and I have had a successful life.
snoopdog
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 1:54 a.m.
So from what you have said , you are a teacher ! Dave Holden has saved this district from financial disaster and being taken over by the state. Trust me , we are with him all the way. I hope he runs again when the time comes. Good Day
Dirtgrain
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 10:37 p.m.
We will lead the world by teaching our children to mindlessly follow.
Cathy
Fri, Sep 14, 2012 : 10:15 p.m.
Sorry, Obama is not responsible for $16 trillion of debt. For example, $7.6 trillion of that was accrued during Republican presidential administrations. Adjusted for inflation, Republicans are responsible for even more. If you look at the national debt curve, you'll see that it rose precipitously starting in the Reagan administration, Reagan of course being responsible for the theory that cutting taxes would increase revenue, so the government could spend more. What did Mr. Reagan call that? Oh yeah, "morning in America."
clownfish
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 12:33 p.m.
So you think that somehow requiring kids to mindlessly recite a pledge written by an avowed socialist, with words added by congress, will somehow make kids...what again?
Patriot
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 2:34 a.m.
"mindlessly follow" ?? You mean like Obama's Hope & Change where he now has 23 million unemployed, $16 Trillion in national debt and growing $4 billion more a day and $4.00 gasoline and you say that is a "good job". Yeah - like that kind of mindless following.
xmo
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 10:14 p.m.
The results of the Poll are sort of surprising for the Ann Arbor area? Being made up of "Progressives" who will not include "God" in their Party's National platform and Loath the Military. It's nice to see that close to half of the people still are Patriotic!
a2citizen
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 1:58 a.m.
The President cannot declare war. The War Powers is a power of Congress.
Macabre Sunset
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 12:50 a.m.
George Bush (41) said that he didn't feel atheists were patriots, and shouldn't have the same rights as other citizens. And then his son declared war on Iraq.
sh1
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 10:12 p.m.
For everyone here saying the pledge should be said in school every day, I'm curious if YOU say the pledge every day, maybe at work or in the car on your way to work? And, if not, why not?
sh1
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 10:06 p.m.
I think the end of this quote is missing: "We live in a great county … and it gives all of us the opportunity to do whatever we want." It should go on to say, "including making other people do the things we think they should do, whether they want to or not."
Mike
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 10:03 p.m.
it's not a pledge to a flag, it's a pledge to the country and what it stands for, the flag is only a symbol. Like the flag al-qaeda raised over our embassies the last couple of days. I guarantee they teach their young early and often to hate the infidels. A country that wants to survive to into the next century needs to instill this in it's young. Once this is lost and we become a country where everyone has their own idea of what this country should be (like we are heading in now) then we will lose the only country in the world where government is not the overbearding ruling force in our lives (like now). Many men have died fighting for this ideal that "we the people" control the government and not the other way around. It's sad to see that many do not understand this priciple.
A Friend
Sat, Sep 15, 2012 : 2:50 p.m.
I'm with izzeh... spend some time with it. Maybe not reciting every day but understanding why they would want to recite it at all....
Basic Bob
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 2:51 a.m.
I guess we could start teaching reading and writing by explaining the history of written language and how it has changed over the ages. Or we could give them simple books with pictures, knowing that they most likely memorize them at first.
Lizzeh
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 11:47 p.m.
What's Patriotic about repeating a pledge without understanding what it means? Teach the history. explain the differences between the original and the changes. Do not force children to say a pledge that is just words. Blind Patriotism is not true Patriotism.
Brad
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 10:12 p.m.
It starts "I pledge allegiance to the flag", so yes, that is one of the things your are pledging to.
WalkingJoe
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 9:26 p.m.
I sure am glad I live in a country where everyone has the right to their opinion and can still say it in a venue like this without worrying about being arrested. Having said this this why not just give families the choice of having their kids say the pledge if they want to and leave it it at that. I know, I know that's too simplistic but pardon me I'm a simple guy.
Brad
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 10:11 p.m.
Really? Then how would you explain how we made it from the beginning of America until 1892 when the original Pledge came into being? I guess I have the confidence in Americans that their patriotism is stronger than reciting some symbolic set of words. It just seems too much like a religion once you start forcing it on people.
Mike
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 10:04 p.m.
They have a choice.......once we stop instilling this in our youg we won't have a choice for much longer......get it?
leaguebus
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 8:33 p.m.
This has nothing to do with patriotism. If a teacher and class would decide to do it on their own, fine. By telling all they must do it is Fascism.
Enso
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 4:32 p.m.
Actually snoop, the only other country in the world that had their students recite a pledge of allegiance everyday was Nazi-run Germany
snoopdog
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 1:57 a.m.
Fascism, seriously Mickey ? This is the USA not Hitler's Germany. Ridiculous beyond belief ! Good Day
tom swift jr.
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 8:27 p.m.
Maybe they could just recite the Tea Party Pledge, instead.
oldguy
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 8:24 p.m.
I have not recited the 'pledge' since they turned it into a prayer by jamming 'god' in there
a2citizen
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 1:54 a.m.
macabre, what do you do with your coins?
Macabre Sunset
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 12:47 a.m.
Whenever I get money from the bank, I take the bills and cross out that line with a Sharpie. Sometimes, if I feel like I have a little extra time, I take a felt-tip and draw a tiny picture of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and all his noodley goodness.
Brad
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 9:52 p.m.
I'm sure god is impressed that we dedicated our currency to her.
southyoop
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 9:34 p.m.
So you don't use the US currency, which is printed "In God We Trust" either?
nekm1
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 8:22 p.m.
I can't move my grandkids out of Public education fast enough. I am a proud American, and I want them to be able to share that experience as well. Great stat that 39% of Chicago's striking teachers send their kids to private schools. Pretty much says it all.
clownfish
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 12:42 p.m.
This "statistic" was supplied by the same guy that told you the Ag Secretary was racist, when her comments showed the exact opposite, he showed you highly edited clips of ACORN workers, but left out the parts were they did what they were supposed to, and on and on and on. I suggest you mandate your kids go to Iraq to search for wmd's, as GWB could not find them under his chair in the Oval Office.
Arborcomment
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 10:59 p.m.
They can afford to. Their average salary is $71,236.
aamom
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 8:17 p.m.
I'm curious if the parents from Saline could comment on whether their students already say the pledge even without the mandate. My kids attend AAPS (elementary level) and they have always said the pledge every morning, even without a mandate. Some of the older students in the school get the opportunity to "lead" the pledge over the PA. I am totally okay with this, but would feel funny if it were mandated. All of a sudden it goes from a nice morning routine to feeling like it's being shoved down your throat.
Danielle Arndt
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 8:24 p.m.
aamom, Saline Superintendent Scot Graden did say at last night's meeting that most elementary classrooms are already doing this. So the mandate would have the biggest impact at the middle and high school. Thanks for reading!
GoNavy
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 8:03 p.m.
I believe that this is how we chip away at "American Culture" (whatever that is), one piece at a time. Each chip off the block might seem innocuous enough, but over time you've taken whatever it was you originally had - what some might argue what made you great - and you've chipped it into something completely different.
conservative
Sat, Sep 15, 2012 : 2:33 a.m.
I'm not surprised that the people of ann arbor have voted this to the negative....just another reason I dislike ann arbor and plan to move as soon as possible.
Brad
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 9:48 p.m.
With any luck we'll chip away the bad parts (slavery, discrimination against women, etc.) and preserve the good parts. We can't live in 1776 forever.
nekm1
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 8:24 p.m.
You have hit the nail squarely on the head. The founding fathers were building a country that wasn't run by a King. We are slowly building a country today that will be. Let's call it Ameritopia.
DeeDee
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 8 p.m.
I had to recite the pledge in school as a kid, and it meant nothing to me then or now. I would be surprised if it was much different for the majority of my class mates. On the other hand, imagine all the could things that might happen in Saline, Michigan, America, etc. if all that bloviators investing time in trying to force other people to do something, actually put all that energy into doing something positive THEMSELVES to help our society be a better place to live! Now that would be a wonderful contribution.
sellers
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 7:44 p.m.
As a kid - we recited it. It was droned out and just words flowing out all of our mouths and meant not a darn thing to me. having it said every morning will simply belittle the meaning of such a pledge and cause it to lose any value. Yes, they will remember it by heart, but it will not mean anything to heart.
mkm17
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 7:43 p.m.
Reciting the Pledge of Allegiance does not mean someone is patriotic, any more than going to church means someone is religious. What a curious and even inappropriate topic for a school board to take up in the first place. If you're a citizen, why do you have to "be proud" and recite the Pledge? Why would there EVER be such a condition put on people, let alone children? Why should someone be coerced into "standing up" and reciting the Pledge, or have it suggested they move to another country? Sorry for the ramble. But I think my point is that we CAN be patriotic (whatever that means) without having to DECLARE that we are patriotic.
conservative
Sat, Sep 15, 2012 : 2:30 a.m.
The USA used to be a "Super Power" We used to be the most desirable place to live People have forgot what it took to acquire this status. Look someone in th eeye who has served in the armed forces and tell them you don't pledge allegiance to OUR flag....
Cathy
Fri, Sep 14, 2012 : 10:25 p.m.
There is a big difference between removing one's hat and saying a loyalty oath every morning.
Basic Bob
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 2:43 a.m.
Perhaps you believe that it is wrong to remove your hat and face the flag for the national anthem. You are free to express that right in the privacy in your own home. In public I think it is better to be respectful. And very important to teach children to be respectful to others and respectful of our country.
Macabre Sunset
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 7:40 p.m.
How 'bout a compromise? Let's recite it, but take out the words Dwight Eisenhower added to the pledge so that we could show the Russians this was a Christian country, and not a godless red land of communist meanies?
craigjjs
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 2:11 p.m.
Do souls die?
nekm1
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 9:38 p.m.
94,000,000 souls died in communist USSR....study a little history...
Brad
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 7:46 p.m.
Yes, let's revert to what the Pledge's "framer" wrote, not the revisionist version. But of course that won't satisfy them either.
G. Orwell
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 7:40 p.m.
Since there are people in our government that are hell bent on destroying this country as was intended by the Founding Fathers, I support a few seconds to teach our young the importance of making the pledge. Our constitution is being ripped apart by both the Republicans and Democrats at the federal level. We are losing our freedoms.
G. Orwell
Fri, Sep 14, 2012 : 2:44 p.m.
Enso Did you not read what I said. Politicians are destroying our Constitution. Therefore, to take our country back, I support the pledge. What is wrong with honoring our country and freedoms by reciting the pledge. Entire public school system is one giant government endoctration system anyways.
G. Orwell
Fri, Sep 14, 2012 : 2:33 p.m.
Clown, Did you not see my comment about the NDAA. Are you this uninformed? Listen for about 3 minutes to prof. Turley. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1gjAna1D6w&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Enso
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 4:28 p.m.
WOW. "Mr. Big Brother" himself, the guy always complaining about the nanny state, blah blah blah, supports government forcing its citizens to pledge their allegiance to its flag. You may want to check your logical coherency there George.
clownfish
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 12:40 p.m.
hmmm, nobody can list a freedom denied to them by the feds? Lot's of hot air, not much oxygen. Maybe G Orwell could show us the Pledge that the Founders mandated?
OLDTIMER3
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 12:35 p.m.
Oldguy, you evedently haven't read about the law about protesting anywhere near Obama what happens.
G. Orwell
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 1:04 a.m.
The NDAA gives Obama and any future president the power to detain indefinitely or kill US citizens without a trial. Some day, if not Obama, a president will use this power. Can you say dictatorship. If you are not aware of this, you've had your head in the sand. Look it up and be informed. We are losing our freedoms.
southyoop
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 9:38 p.m.
Old Guy: Do you really want to open that can of worms? Freedoms we have lost??? Countless. Most have been incrementally taken away. Can't super-size a Coke in New York. Can't smoke a cigarette in a bar. Soon will be told I must have health insurance. Do I really need to go on?
leaguebus
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 8:29 p.m.
So we lose another freedom by being told we have to say the Pledge in class.
oldguy
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 8:28 p.m.
G. Orwell: Can you name one freedom that you`ve lost ?
Jaime
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 7:37 p.m.
Sounds like we should force them to be patriotic. If Nazi Germany could do it, why not us. North Korea does it every day.
Doug
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 7:54 p.m.
Jaime, Our country needs all kinds of people, even your kind!
Brad
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 7:45 p.m.
If it's forced it's indoctrination whether you like that word or not. Hardly the American way.
Lisa Slawson
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 7:24 p.m.
Just a clarification on my comments. The statement was as a teacher, and given the current gray areas in the policy, would I be considered less patriotic or in violation of the policy if I played "Born in the USA" in my classroom. I was not intending to imply that this song isn't patriotic. I personally think that it is.
Alan Goldsmith
Fri, Sep 14, 2012 : 7:58 p.m.
What if I want to sing Woody Guthrie? Would I be fired?
Basic Bob
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 2:39 a.m.
We learned in the sixties and seventies that there is a difference between patriotism and blind obedience to the government policy. Like Ms. Slawson, I believe that Springsteen is proud to be an American and patriotic. But sometimes the government policies are objectionable. It is our patriotic duty to express that belief.
Danai
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 2:21 a.m.
That is what the song is generally about but what, M, is unpatriotic about it? Is dissent unpatriotic? If dissent is unpatriotic then all of the "founding fathers" were unpatriotic.
M
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 7:34 p.m.
Born in the USA is incredibly anti-patriotic. Read the lyrics. It's about a disillusioned young man being wronged by his governement. he comes back from a war killing people for a reason he doesn't know why, and his brother is dead, and he can't get a job. Lordy lord, think before you say something in the public square.
Ben
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 7:23 p.m.
As a child I recited the pledge in school daily, and didn't even think about (much less understand) the meaning of the words I was saying. What is the point of doing that? How about discussing the concepts of liberty, the republic, etc. as a classroom topic - with kids who are old enough to comprehend them.
sellers
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 7:46 p.m.
Ben - sorry, I didn't see your posting before I stated mine - saying the same thing. I like the pledge - just don't want to see it lose any value it has.
Tony
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 7:23 p.m.
This is America. If we are U.S. Citizens, or applying for U.S. Citizenship, we should be willing to stand up and pledge or allegiance to America. If you are not a citizen, or visiting from another country then I support your right not to say the pledge. I also support your right to live in another country if you are not quite satisfied with this great country.
eom
Sat, Sep 15, 2012 : 2:18 a.m.
This IS America, so say it all you want. Now, when I'm in my classroom, I'll be the one surrounded by kids, and we'll be LEARNING, not reciting.
hail2thevict0r
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 5:30 p.m.
unusual suspect, the difference being - no one's asking you to renounce your believe in the pledge.
Enso
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 4:26 p.m.
Recite the pledge in your mind for a second. Now, you didn't just pledge allegiance to the country. You pledged allegiance to a FLAG. A crappy piece of cotton-blended cloth made in China. If that's all it takes to be a good citizen in your world, I feel sorry for you.
Unusual Suspect
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 12:40 a.m.
I agree with the Under God part. That should be left in since I, and many others believe in God. See... it works both ways.
sh1
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 10:09 p.m.
You should know that America is founded on the idea of freedom, which goes directly against your idea that we should all cite pledges in unison as is done in many of the countries we go to war with.
Classof2014
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 9:14 p.m.
I just don't agree with the Under God part. That should be taken out since I, and many others don't believe in God.
Brad
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 7:26 p.m.
The beauty of America is that you can have all sorts of goofy opinions about just about anything.
pegret
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 7:22 p.m.
I love the rebel in the front row with his hands in his pockets.
lynel
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 8:52 p.m.
I'm a little suspicious of the girl behind him too.
Ben
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 7:25 p.m.
Wait until they add the punishment clause for non-participation.
SuperiorMother
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 7:14 p.m.
Why is there a need to change the current policy? How long has the current policy been in place, and has it really generated "just a ton of questions: Will the principal read it over the intercom? Do I do it in my classroom? What if I forget, am I in trouble?" Seems to me that all the effort required to change/approve the currently policy is a waste of time the could be better spent in other ways.
SMAIVE
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 7:09 p.m.
Wow, really disappointed in Craig Hoeft. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
M
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 6:57 p.m.
What a pointless waste of time. How about focusing on actual city issues instead of forcing my kids to say recite a "patriotic" pledge that amounts to little more than brainwashing. Leave teaching about patriotism to me, not some legislator. I truly believe this legislation is fascist.
Gasmaskted
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 4:01 a.m.
So, GoNavy, you want children to be compelled to recite the pledge of allegiance, but you don't want them doing it unthinkingly. Have you considered that most of the people opposing the pledge do so because they were not reciting it unthinkingly, but were instead considering the group think that the government forcing the statement of a pro-government pledge, whether or not the speaker believes in the statement (as well as the theistic addition whether or not one believes in a singular god, or that such god is in fact more important than the nation, which significantly undercuts the whole allegiance to country thing), to be fundamentally disgusting and antithetical to what they may think are the ideals of freedom that are the best of the nation?
Classof2014
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 9:13 p.m.
I agree!
GoNavy
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 8:38 p.m.
If your children recite passages, or multiplication tables, or what have you "mindlessly," then they are doing it wrong. I would have imagined your children putting some thought into the pledge. Perhaps thought derived from discussions you've had with them regarding the origins of the pledge, what it means to recite it, etc. But ya - if your children are turning their brains off and their Facebook app on while "mindlessly" reciting the pledge, I'd agree that our time has been wasted in the endeavor.
Brad
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 7:56 p.m.
As if mindlessly reciting the pledge will instill that allegiance. C'mon.
GoNavy
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 7:49 p.m.
We wouldn't want your children to feel any sort of allegiance to this country.
Hunterjim
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 6:48 p.m.
I will not understand objections to reciting the pledge of allegiance. If your a citizen, be proud, pledge your allegiance, not a citizen, stand and respect the country your a guest of. No apologies for my opinion.
PhillyCheeseSteak
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 5:33 p.m.
Right on, Comrade! First let's legislate patriotism and then let's enforce it!
hail2thevict0r
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 10:51 a.m.
Angry, "The Saline schools Board of Education will draft a policy mandating students recite the "Pledge of Allegiance" daily" How would you like it if your kid was forced to praise Allah every morning? I think we'd be getting a different reaction out of parents then.
Angry Moderate
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 12:51 a.m.
Nobody is forcing anybody to say anything.
hail2thevict0r
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 7:46 p.m.
It might have to do with "under god" being added in the 50's or 60's.....I do not believe in a god and forcing anyone to say so is unconstitutional.
Angry Moderate
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 6:58 p.m.
Why do we need to take time out of the school day for this? Why don't you recite the pledge with your kids BEFORE school?
M
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 6:58 p.m.
I respect freedom. I don't respect someone telling me "Love this thing or else". That's not freedom, and I will not respect it. I love this country for the exact reason it lets me NOT support this legislation.
Ignatz
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 6:23 p.m.
Danielle, The poll closed before the your article was posted. It may skew the results. ;-)
Cathy
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 : 9:52 a.m.
Wait, so Al-Qaeda does something, so we in the USA should too? Are you serious?
Mike
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 10:02 p.m.
dextermom - it's not a pledge to a flag, it's a pledge to the country and what it stands for, the flag is only a symbol. Like the flag al-qaeda raised over our embassies the last couple of days. I guarantee they teach their young early and often to hate the infidels. A country that wants to survive to into the next century needs to instill this in it's young. Once this is lost and we become a country where everyone has their own idea of what this country should be (like we are heading in now) then we will lose the only country in the world where government is not the overbearding ruling force in our lives (like now). Many men have died fighting for this ideal that "we the people" control the government and not the other way around. It's sad to see that many do not understand this priciple.
dextermom
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 9:03 p.m.
I may love my country but why does that translate to pledging to a flag???? I don't pledge to the flag. Yes, I will stand respectfully.
Danielle Arndt
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 : 6:26 p.m.
All fixed! Thanks and sorry about that! ;-)