sh1

Sat, May 1, 2010 : 9:55 p.m.

Well, I had hoped to pass a millage. I don't mind paying taxes for excellent schools. At this point, it's up to Lansing to decide. Teachers can take pay cuts for a short-term solution, but what about the following year?

Jimmy Olsen

Sat, May 1, 2010 : 7:28 p.m.

I'm generalizing that teachers aren't the poorly paid individuals that you claim they are and that people in other professions might not make as much (salary and benefits considered). I don't want anyone to "suffer", but things are what they are. After scanning through many of your posts, I see that you don't offer any solutions - how would you balance the budget?

sh1

Sat, May 1, 2010 : 8:41 a.m.

Just making sure, Jimmy: are you saying anecdotally you know a couple doctors who make less than a couple teachers, or are you generalizing that teachers make more than doctors, and therefore should take a big pay cut? Because "it wouldn't take a rocket scientist" to see through that one.

Jimmy Olsen

Fri, Apr 30, 2010 : 9:49 p.m.

I know physicians and lawyers who make less than a teacher at the top of their scale with their salary and benefits package, less time off - probably equal working hours. My 10% pay cut was 5 years ago, when private businesses realized the economy was beginning to tank, unlike public school districts and the state who continued to spend like there was no tomorrow. Bottom line - when you are financed by public dollars, when there is no money - something has to be cut. When 85% of your expenditures are salaries and benefits - it doesn't take much of a rocket scientist to figure this out.

sh1

Fri, Apr 30, 2010 : 6:49 p.m.

Jimmy, isn't there anyone outside of the field of education...maybe physicians or lawyers...shouldn't they also suffer like you are?

Jimmy Olsen

Fri, Apr 30, 2010 : 6:22 p.m.

@sh1 well,,,,the adminsitrators, directors and ESP professionals have all given back to the district and continue to do so. Every employee, except the teachers. It called shared sacrifice. I guess as a group, they value each other a little more. Spread the pain and it seems that everyone could maintain their jobs. Kind of like when my CEO announced an across the board 10% pay cut, to help the company survive.

sh1

Fri, Apr 30, 2010 : 3:45 p.m.

Is it just teachers you all want to take a pay cut, or does this include other professions as well?

ironyinthesky2

Fri, Apr 30, 2010 : 12:23 p.m.

They gave up TRAINING??? That's some sacrifice. How about giving back some of their raise? Pathetic.

SalineMom

Fri, Apr 30, 2010 : 9:59 a.m.

@biffhooper "There are also many other things that tell the story outside of the things that you mentioned. However, there are is a great deal of other information out there that never gets talked about in the paper, at board meetings, or that an administrator will tell a parent." These "other things" that "tell the story" - what are they? Please share if we are uninformed about the true story.

Edward R. Murrow's ghost

Fri, Apr 30, 2010 : 9:58 a.m.

stun: and there are people who are doing fine in this economy. Public policy is not a function of YOUR personal problems.

stunhsif

Fri, Apr 30, 2010 : 8:24 a.m.

@bifhooper, I never said I don't get vacation pay. I have been with my company for 11.5 years and get three weeks vacation. I used 4 days of my 15 days in 2009 because I was too busy and too broke to take a "real" vacation.So to answer your question of "did I give any of those days back to the company to save them money", the answer is yes, I gave them 11 days! I also did not get paid for my unused vacation days. I also do not get any sick days or personal days. Does that clarify things for you? I also make 20% less than I did 5 years ago because the company I work for ( Transportation/Trucking) has been devastated by the economy. So I think I have a good reason for demanding that the MEA and the local school unions give back to the taxpayers. We are their bosses and answer one question for me. Why should those folks, whose salaries we pay have gold plated Cadillac benefits when we the rest of us are going backwards?

sh1

Fri, Apr 30, 2010 : 7:55 a.m.

What seems odd to me about stunhsif's description of his workplace is that he is also anti-union. A union might be able to bargain a few sick days for you.

biffhooper

Fri, Apr 30, 2010 : 4:47 a.m.

Saline Mom - That's a great start to trying to find out what goes on. I'm not the one who said you had all of the insider information, that was announcerman. According to him you always will be the be all end all of Saline School info. There are also many other things that tell the story outside of the things that you mentioned. However, there are is a great deal of other information out there that never gets talked about in the paper, at board meetings, or that an administrator will tell a parent.

biffhooper

Fri, Apr 30, 2010 : 4:42 a.m.

Stun - But you do get vacation days. The way you talked earlier you never get time off and now all of the sudden you get vacation days. Semantics. You can make up whatever name you want, but in the end, it sounds like you still get paid time off. Do you ever volunteer to give any of those back to the company to save the company money?

SalineMom

Thu, Apr 29, 2010 : 9:39 p.m.

Biffhooper, I have never claimed to nor do I have insider information. What I do is pay attention to what goes on in the district by attending board meetings and other functions/meetings where many of these items are discussed. The board minutes are not a word by word transcript of what occurred, but merely a summary. Also, many things that I post are just common sense (expenditures cannot exceed revene). There are thousands of things you can find on-line that give you information (like the SEA contract). If I do need clarification - I will call the appropriate principal or administrator and ask. Mr. Graden did not sign the contract - he negotiated it. The contract is between the board and the SEA. Had you been at the meeting where the contract extension was approved - you'd heard Mr. Graden's reasoning for bringing it to the board and you'd heard 6 board members say why they supported it and 1 board member state why he could not support it. It passed 6 to 1. Along with the 2.5% raise - there is also a "step" increase for those who haven't made it to the top. I think this year it is about 3.5 to 4 %? that would give them a 6 to 6.5 % raise. Unheard of in these economic times. So putting a hold on those two items for 1 or 2 years, would keep class size down and keep more teachers employed. @TheAnnouncerMan007 - I think you meant Heim and Lauchu they are SEA officers along with Timoszyk and Boze I believe. Laatsch is ass't superintendent. Your comments are spot on.

Edward R. Murrow's ghost

Thu, Apr 29, 2010 : 9:31 p.m.

Stun: Ever read the New Testament? You know, the parts about charity and about treating your fellow man as you would want to be treated?

stunhsif

Thu, Apr 29, 2010 : 8:58 p.m.

@bifhopper, No sick days, no personal days, no education credit days, no learning days, no tooth fairy dust days. Where most of us work,if you are sick and puking your guts out, if you need to take a day off to close on a house deal or stay home cause your kids are sick, you use a vacation day( if you have one earned) or you do not get paid. Ain't no sick days, personal days or whatever you want to call them. If you are not at work,you don't get paid unless you want to use a vacation day to cover the day you are puking your guts out. For that matter, why should an employer have to pay you if you are not at work? If you are sick use your earned vacation time. Why should your employer have to pay someone else to do your job when you get sick, or when you need to see a lawyer or when your kid gets sick,or if you need to close on a new house. That is not their problem, it is your problem. I do get two days off if my mother,father,wife or children die. After two days off, I have to use vacation pay if I need more time off.

biffhooper

Thu, Apr 29, 2010 : 5:26 p.m.

Announcerman: If a 2.5% raise is not appropriate, then why did the superintendent sign a contract for the 2.5% raise? I'm not saying that the teachers should've gotten it, but why was it given? Does it really matter if Saline's scores were the 3rd or the 4th best in the state out of 1437 schools who gave it? Either way, they are in the top 4. This should be a celebrated point and not something that you choose to use as a joke and point of contention. No matter how you choose to degrade the school, teachers, and others, these scores are pretty good, whether they be 3rd or 4th. However, if this is one point that you need an exact number on, I'll do my best to try to find that out for you. As we both seem to have inside sources on negotiations and both seem to be getting different stories, I guess we'll just have to disagree on the negotiations point. We're not going to believe each other. I'm very curious as to why you believe Saline Mom has all of the inside facts. Most parents in districts, don't have the inside information unless they're on the board, are an administrator, or a union rep. Most parents that I talk to who claim to know everything that is going on hear it at the grocery store or the gym from other parents and if they are parents who do have all of the info, as I said, they generally have some important role in the district and really wouldn't talk about it online.

Jay Allen

Thu, Apr 29, 2010 : 4:31 p.m.

I think it is funny that a guy has a screen name and you all want to thrash him for his "screen name". A2carguy has some good ideas.......Then biffhooper signs up for a screen name and comes in here with his/her infinite wisdom. biffhooper, SalineMom is and will continue to have FACTS as they relate to this discussion. For you to not educate as to what the TRUTH is (as most of us have done) and then come and preach to us is funny. Here is a fact. heim & laatsch wish to hide behind the MEA's skirt and say that they "cannot open negotiations". That has been their position, it has not changed. Every now and again little tidbits come out of their mouths as to what "they" are willing to concede and really there have been no concessions, per se`. And now here they are again performing the same old smoke and mirrors. If you CANNOT NEGOTIATE, then what are you doing? However, a friend of mine who knows a ton about State Law has poked around a little bit about this. If the Union wanted to re-open negotiations to save jobs, the MEA would allow that. Re-opening negotiation just to re-open them and pad the wallet is NOT what the MEA will allow and that is why those clauses have been wrote into the agreements. I said MONTHS ago about the insurance the teacher's have. This is a HUGE issue. I have looked into the coverages they have and what they pay. I have also said (and now verified) that a high school teacher was PO'ed that he had a 5.00 co-pay per individual at the dentist. Look at see what the dental plan is....... And to those who keep coming back and saying that the teachers should not have to bear the burden, I suggest you look and see what has already been done. Cutting jobs was a last ditch effort. And those teachers who are NOT WILLING to concede money (stop hiding, stop grand standing, it CAN be done - it just doesn't want to be done by heim) are getting a 2.50% RAISE. They get a RAISE while they allow their brothers and sisters to be laid off? I don't know about you all, but here in REAL middle America, my income was a lot less this year vs last. Most of everyone I have talked to made less. The economy is down or don't you get out much? But they get a raise? Lastly on test scores and saying Saline is 3rd or 4th. Which is it? If you are doing research, then spit out the EXACT results. Don't make summations and assumptions and use them as fact. But what I find really funny about that is IF (and I do mean if as I have NOT went and found it, yet) is that is Saline is in the top 10 let's say in the state on ACT's and we are faced with a budget crisis (as we are) why would you NOT WANT TO KEEP EVERYTHING AS IT IS? Why not keep ALL of the teachers? And you cannot do this with the money the School has. It was said we have 2004 enrollment and 2005 revenue. So why do any of you think a 2.50% RAISE in 2010-2011 is appropriate?

biffhooper

Thu, Apr 29, 2010 : 4:26 p.m.

Stun - They may not be called sick days at a dealership or where you worked but I'd bet that employees who work there get days off. You can choose to call them what you want, but please tell me if I'm wrong if other places don't allow their employees time off. One of my friends works at a car dealership in Ann Arbor and he gets "vacation" days which he can use if he goes on trips, is sick, or for whatever. At the transportation company that you worked for, am I to believe that no one at that company ever misses a day of work and doesn't still get paid for it? I seriously doubt it. Also, yes, teachers do get to bank their sick days but they still can only get compensated for a certain number of them when they retire.

Edward R. Murrow's ghost

Thu, Apr 29, 2010 : 12:46 p.m.

@biffhooper: Yeah, what stunshif says!!!! I mean, REALLY!!! Where do you get off thinking it benefits both the employee and employer to not require someone at work who is ill??? Where I work, we work as a community, and we want to share all of the illnesses everyone gets. We like passing 'em on to our customers, too!!! We know they appreciate the service!!! Personal time? You must be KIDDING!!! Why should a company provide time for someone needs to see a lawyer or close on a house? No!!!! I'm CERTAIN it serves that company (as it does mine) to tell its employees that their personal problems and issues are of no concern of the company. I mean, REALLY!!!! Why would any company ever treat its employees like they were human beings, much less part of a family, all of whom have a common interest in personal and corporate success?? Such an outmoded concept!! REALLY!!! You need to join the 21st century!!;-)

Ram

Thu, Apr 29, 2010 : 10:47 a.m.

The union members voted overwhelmingly in support of the OTT agreement. Word is they're willing to pay more for their health benefits if it saves jobs and keeps class sizes smaller...but Tim Heim won't have any of that compromise nonsense.

stunhsif

Thu, Apr 29, 2010 : 8:35 a.m.

@biffhooper, you commented about a car salesman or mechanic using sick days. Let me assure you, car salesmen don't get sick days nor do mechanic's that work at car dealerships. I have worked at a transportation company for 11 years, revenues of almost a billion dollars per year and we don't have sick days or personal days. And as SalineMom noted, Saline teachers can bank sick days.

SalineMom

Thu, Apr 29, 2010 : 6:14 a.m.

@biffhopper - the point was their teachers union has no issue with contract opening, unlike the hide behind the skirts of the MEA Saline teachers union. Saline also runs a far more efficient operation than Ann Arbor does. The other point is, IF a majority of Saline teachers would like to do something, you are telling me their parent union has the ability to say NO. BS. On other posts, Ann Arbor teachers will tell you they need that money because their student population is more "diverse" and costs more to educate them. I checked the Saline contract on sick days - they can accumulate them and get paid for them at retirement - to a maximum of $3,000 for 20 years of service - less than 20 years looks like a pro-rated value.

biffhooper

Thu, Apr 29, 2010 : 4:46 a.m.

@Saline Mom - I'm not sure I'd be using Ann Arbor as an example. Ann Arbor gets nearly $4000 more per student than Saline does yet they find themselves in the same boat.

A2CarGuy

Wed, Apr 28, 2010 : 9:21 p.m.

@proudtobeme - Teachers get a lot of sick days. It's very rare to run out. They also get personal business days. If you have kids in school (any Washtenaw district) keep track of how many days they have a substitute. Still, biffhooper has a point. A lot of sick days do go unused and accrue. Under some contracts (don't know about Saline) they can be "cashed in" later. So that might not be a way to save money other than the sub costs.

A2CarGuy

Wed, Apr 28, 2010 : 9:12 p.m.

@biffhooper - One does not need to look over the shoulders of individual negotiators to recognize collective bargaining posturing. The leadership of the Saline Education Association has clearly decided to let less senior teachers lose their jobs rather than make significant concessions. Unions do it all the time -- it's called "eating their young." It's a simple political decision. What's particularly distasteful is when a union leadership tries to redirect blame to cover their decision. The SEA has raised this to a high art. As braggslaw says, though, the math is simple here. There's less money to go around. People know it's because of the economy, so attempts to redirect anger at the Board or the state or the Governor won't work this time. But the SEA leadership just keeps using the same strategy because it's what they know. It's not working.

SalineMom

Wed, Apr 28, 2010 : 9:10 p.m.

Here is a quote from Brit Satchwell - President of the Ann Arbor EA: "We, not MEA, run our own affairs. MEA sometimes wishes we were less autonomous, but they respect our autonomy nonetheless. (Now THERE'S some chum for the union cynics!)" So apparently the EA in Ann Arbor has no issue with the MEA holding them back. I guess Mr. Heim and the SEA are less autonomous. It seems to me, and I might be wrong, but if a local union voted to take an across the board 4% pay-cut to save teacher jobs instead of tossing the youngest to the curb (again) could/would the MEA say No? If they did - I guess I'd be looking for different representation.

braggslaw

Wed, Apr 28, 2010 : 9:05 p.m.

biffhooper, Saline Schools are good and maybe when I finally get my school voucher (after the next great wave of education reform) I would send my kid there. I would like the ability to choose.

proudtobeme

Wed, Apr 28, 2010 : 8:54 p.m.

a2carguy- How can someone not commit to using sick days? Say,"I'm only going to be sick once this year?" "My kids will not get sick this year?" "I think I am only going to be sick 3 times this year,so I can use 3 sick days"

biffhooper

Wed, Apr 28, 2010 : 8:53 p.m.

A2CarGuy: Do you know how many sick days go unused by Saline teachers each year? Teachers also get 2 personal days by contract. I'm sure a number of sick days go unused each year and I know many teachers who have retired with over a hundred sick days banked that they get no compensation for. If a car salesman or mechanic doesn't use all of his or her compensation days, does the price of a new car go down?

A2CarGuy

Wed, Apr 28, 2010 : 8:45 p.m.

@ baitm - The state requires that teachers get professional development, but it does not require teachers to have professional development money to spend as they wish. That's a perk that comes from a contract. If the teacher's union would commit to not spend that money then I'll bet the administration would commit to find other ways to get the required professional development done at low cost. The state does not require that teachers use all the personal and sick days they are allotted. If the teachers in Saline would commit to not using some portion of those days (they get quite a few) then that many more jobs could be saved. If the SEA leadership can give up one day of professional development without violating the MEA's "stringent guidelines" then they can give up other things as well. They just prefer not to.

biffhooper

Wed, Apr 28, 2010 : 8:42 p.m.

Saline Mom: There may be some charter schools that do as well as Saline does, but I'd like to know which ones. Saline's junior ACT scores put them in the top 3 or 4 in the state out of all of the high schools. I'd stack up Saline's students against anyone in the state, or nation. What would I do to fix the problem without involving Lansing? If I had a fixable solution I would've suggested it to those in charge. What I do know is that each school district doesn't get equal amounts of money per student, which is problem #1. That won't be fixed though. So, if fewer students come into a district, there is fewer amounts of money being generated, and a need for fewer teachers. I certainly don't want teachers or other school personnel to be laid off, but it seems as though some people only want the teachers to give up things to help. You can't really expect that. So, no, I don't have a solution, but I wish I did

braggslaw

Wed, Apr 28, 2010 : 8:41 p.m.

The only real solution is vouchers handed to every parent/student so they can bust up the public school monopoly. It will lead to improved schools at a lower tax burden.

biffhooper

Wed, Apr 28, 2010 : 8:30 p.m.

stunhsif: I'm not trying to say that all is well in education. However, the way you and others talk it sounds like you have been on the front lines of all of the teacher negotiations. You make it sound as though you are all seated directly between Graden and Heim and are privy to all of the information. Have you called the MEA and spoken to someone in charge as to opening a contract? You make it sound like it's no big deal and that you can do it and there are no rules regulating this. Just because I read the papers and see that there have been problems between the UAW and the Big 3 I don't pretend to know everything that goes on. You may be right, you may be wrong, but why don't you start throwing out some of the things that you've done to research this and find first hand evidence such as speaking with the MEA, or Mr. Graden instead of just repeating things that you read in the newspaper, online, or on the comments (it sounds like you guys keep track of the number of times that everyone posts, really?)

SalineMom

Wed, Apr 28, 2010 : 8:19 p.m.

@biffhopper - it doesn't take much time - just click on the posters name and you'll see all the comments. It sometimes gives you a background of the comments. I'll disagree with you somewhat about schools not being a business - since many charter schools operate on a lower budget, yet (based on test scores) turn out a "similar" product like Saline - a well educated, young adult. So, since you are not behind on the topic - how would you solve the budget issue - leave Lansing, etc out of the answer, since that is long term and not going to happen anytime soon.

stunhsif

Wed, Apr 28, 2010 : 8:16 p.m.

@biffhooper, where you been my friend the past 6 months? Oh, I just saw SalineMom posted exactly what I was going to say to you so I won't be redundant! When I saw the title of this article I got excited that perhaps the SEA was actually giving up some real concessions and then I read the article. What a joke, what a disgrace. Mr. Heim says, " this culminates weeks of diligent work by the leadership of both parties. The details of this agreement will meet the stringent guidelines of the MEA". Like we give a (blankety blank) about what the MEA says. I am sick and tired of the MEA holding a gun to our heads and our kids heads. If I didn't know Mr. Heim said this with all seriousness, I would have to think he was joking! I wish to assure Mr. Heim that this taxpayer will never vote YES on a millage vote again unless the MEA and the SEA come to their senses!

biffhooper

Wed, Apr 28, 2010 : 8:05 p.m.

Saline Mom: That's unfortunate that you and your husband have fallen on hard times. I don't have time to count the number of posts people in Ann Arbor have made, but that doesn't mean I am behind. In terms of the economics lesson, thanks, but one thing you also may have learned about economics is that education is not a business, and also that the "product" that schools and teachers create are learning in kids. They're not making things such as a car where you can say that metal, rubber, and plastic cost X dollars and you can then try to justify the cost of a car. Yes, I'm sure that 85% of the district's expenses are in salaries and benefits. Because the schools can't really sell the kids when they graduate, they are forced to generate money from some other way. They call this a service industry. As with service industries, they generally don't make a tangible product, but provide a service. Have you ever paid to go to a concert? You didn't get the CD when you left did you? If you want teachers and school districts to be able to justify their incomes based on what they sell then they would be doing it for free.

SalineMom

Wed, Apr 28, 2010 : 7:50 p.m.

biffhopper - since these are your first two posts you are a little behind. The millage had nothing to do with education, but everything to do with maintaining the status quo - everyone would get their step raises, everyone would get they annual raise, everyone would continue to pay nothing for health care, etc. The teacher don't have to take the brunt of it - the admin, ESP and others have already chipped in. We know how hard everyone in the district works - it is simple economics - revenue must equal expenses - by state law. When 85% of your expenses are salary and benefits - guess what!! No one is disgracing teachers anymore than my husband and I have been disgraced by unemployment and 3,000 health care deductibles. It is reality.

biffhooper

Wed, Apr 28, 2010 : 7:37 p.m.

To Saline Mom: Are you expecting the teachers in Saline to be the only ones giving up anything to help your children? If you remember back in the fall there was a vote to support education (not increase teacher wages or have anything to do with the teacher contracts) that was voted down in Washtenaw County (but was voted down by the largest amount in Saline). Because the voters overwhelmingly voted this down, you now expect Saline's teachers to take the brunt of the economic downturn on their own? What are you doing to help? Do you think that by disgracing their teachers online or at a board meeting that you are helping the problem? Do you feel that by doing this it is raising money? Really?

braggslaw

Wed, Apr 28, 2010 : 7:29 p.m.

Despite all the posturing and protesting the market always wins. There is less money, thus there will be fewer teachers or the same amount of teachers being paid less. this was one of only two possible outcomes because of the financial realities.

biffhooper

Wed, Apr 28, 2010 : 7:27 p.m.

You're funny A2CarGuy. Your name doesn't suggest that you work for Saline Schools but your response suggests that you seem to have all of the inside information. Are you sure there's not more to the negotiations than what you're aware of. Perhaps you should walk a day in their shoes and find out what really happens before you throw out your responses and pretend to know everything that goes on.

SalineMom

Wed, Apr 28, 2010 : 7:10 p.m.

Great News! The SEA in their infinite wisdom give up training. That won't have an impact on kids will it? They forgot to mention that the overly expensive MESSA insurance was just quoted at about 5% more than the budget projection. I guess 3 or 4 of those teachers recalled will have to go back. Mr. Jesses missed the best part of the board meeting - at the end during public comment, when Mr. Heim thanked the board, and then said he would see them in fall to talk about the opener for health care. That means this is all the SEA is contributing for 2010-2011 school year. Start maximizing those classes now. What a shame, Mr. Heim and the SEA continue to hide behind the MEA that "won't let them" open the contract. They just don't want to - the sense of entitlement continues. If they thought the parents were upset at them before, I can't wait until the next board meeting on May 11th.

baitm

Wed, Apr 28, 2010 : 7:09 p.m.

hey a2carguy-stick to cars. they cannot touch all their professional dev. money because of the great state of michigan requires it. blame them! so check off one less reason to hate unions. you don't have a clue what is going on so please try to not show us how limited you are. saline teachers should not stop helping during desperate times. the union haters really could care less about those students, they just want to blame others. take heart carguy, these same teachers are going to pay 3% more for retirement and like other workers most teachers have had benefits cut and/or pay more for them.

A2CarGuy

Wed, Apr 28, 2010 : 6:10 p.m.

Good news! So if this agreement is "allowed by the MEA" because it doesn't re-open the contract, then how about teachers give up Personal Days for additional savings? That could be another six teachers with jobs teaching kids. How about an agreement to spend only half of the allotted professional development money? More savings! More people keep their jobs and kids have more teachers! By trying to play this both ways ("We're not allowed to negotiate, but we made generous concessions anyway") the SEA is betting the Saline community isn't smart enough to see how cynical their position is. That's not a good bet. It's not REALLY the MEA that's preventing the SEA from making concessions to save these jobs.