Residents frustrated with lack of solutions for pothole-ridden North Territorial Road
Editor's note: Commissioner Dan Smith's comments have been edited for accuracy.
Frustrated with the bone-jarring condition of North Territorial Road in northeastern Washtenaw County, residents who live along the busy country thoroughfare have taken matters into their own hands.
More than 600 people have signed a petition that’s been sitting for several months at Edith’s Market -- a small convenience store at Pontiac Trail and North Territorial Road in Salem Township.
The residents feel Washtenaw County officials owe them a solution to the problem.
However, the answer may not come until the Michigan legislature hammers out a solution to increase funding for roadwork.
Bob Hlavacek of Salem Township signed the petition and was one of the eight residents that came to the Washtenaw County Board of Commissioners meeting May 1 to present them with the documents.
North Territorial Road at Stewart Lane in Northfield Township.
Amy Biolchini | AnnArbor.com
The petition states: “We the undersigned demand action from Washtenaw County Road Commission and Washtenaw County Board of Commissioners to allocate funds to make repairs to North Territorial Road in the spring and summer of 2013,” said Edith’s Market owner Mike Marouf in a phone interview.
“North Territorial from Spencer to Ridge has been eroding for over five years,” Marouf said. “The road surface is so rough that light vehicles can bounce out of control.”
North Territorial Road often serves as a detour for motorists when accidents or heavy traffic cause severe congestion on U.S. 23. It’s also a major east-west route that connects Plymouth to U.S. 23 and other points in Washtenaw County.
Between 4:30 and 6 p.m., the road is “wall-to-wall traffic,” said Salem Township resident Arlene DeForest in her comments to the board during the May 1 meeting.
DeForest owns a dairy farm. The large industrial milk trucks that deliver her product to market have difficulty navigating North Territorial Road, DeForest said, putting her business in jeopardy.
“People drive over the center line and they dodge back and forth trying to avoid the roughest spots,” Hlavacek said. “The Northfield Township police are not happy about it - they’ve stopped people for (what they thought was) intoxicated driving.”
Commissioner Dan Smith, R-Northfield Township, said he’s heard similar complaints from residents about the road when he’s stopped by Edith’s Market before.
“We’re all aware that we have some new options that the legislature provided us in terms of how we manage the roads in this county,” Smith said in reference to the possibility of the county absorbing the Road Commission and expending a countywide general fund surplus on roads.
North Territorial Road near Pinecrest Estates Drive in Salem Township.
Amy Biolchini | AnnArbor.com
“The Road Commission struggles with the extremely high cost of repairing some of these roads where the road bed has deteriorated beyond repair,” Smith said. “This road is really in poor shape. The funds just aren’t there to bring it up to the snuff that we need. It creates a safety issue as these folks have said.”
Bill Farley of Salem Township said it’s difficult to understand how road money is allocated to various projects, as the Washtenaw County Road Commission recently announced the construction of a roundabout at Seven Mile Road and Pontiac Trail in Salem Township that Farley said he didn’t think was as needed as improvements on North Territorial.
“(North Territorial is) not even close to being a road,” Farley said. “It’s beyond what you can believe and it’s just not right.”
Roy Townsend, managing director of the Road Commission, said April 30 there have been quite a few residents who have contacted them regarding North Territorial Road conditions over the past through weeks.
The road has been on the Road Commission’s list of unfunded projects for quite some time -- and it made a list of projects that the Road Commission could fix should the state find a way to increase funding for roads in Michigan.
For the past several years, the Road Commission’s resurfacing program has not been funded. In its stead, federal money has been used for some resurfacing projects - but that money comes with strict limitations, Townsend said.
“You can resurface good and fair roads to keep them in that condition,” Townsend said of the limitations.
North Territorial Road is a primary road and is in such bad condition that it doesn’t qualify for the use of those federal dollars, Townsend said.
“Roads in that condition require … shoulder work including ditch work and tree removal,” Townsend said.
Commissioner Rolland Sizemore Jr., D-Ypsilanti Township, acknowledged during the May 1 meeting that there was a problem with North Territorial Road but said it wasn’t the only road in the county that needed significant improvements.
Willis Road in Sizemore’s district is also a roadway that many have complained about, he said.
“You guys aren’t the only ones that have trouble with roads,” Sizemore said in response to Hlavacek and Farley. “I will work with you, but there are a lot of roads in this county in a lot of bad shape.”
Commissioner Andy LaBarre, D-Ann Arbor, suggested the residents share their struggles and petition with their state representative and senator.
County Administrator Verna McDaniel and Commissioner Sizemore said May 1 they would work with the Road Commission to arrange a meeting between the citizens from the North Territorial Road area.
In 2011, Townsend said resurfacing North Territorial Road was among a list of projects that the Road Commission brought before the Board of Commissioners to request help in funding them.
In 2011, the board declined, Townsend said. In 2012, North Territorial was again on a list of unfunded projects the Road Commission presented to the Board of Commissioners - but it was more as an item of information, Townsend said.
“Everyone’s well aware that we need to do something,” Townsend said. “The frustrating part for us is that roads are not a partisan issue.”
View North Territorial Road in a larger map
Amy Biolchini covers Washtenaw County, health and environmental issues for AnnArbor.com. Reach her at (734) 623-2552, amybiolchini@annarbor.com or on Twitter.
Comments
734baggins
Tue, May 14, 2013 : 10:05 p.m.
News flash: Michigan Roads Suck. Period.
John Q
Tue, May 14, 2013 : 7:07 p.m.
Time for those in the townships to step up and start paying local road millages. The gas tax money doesn't cut it anymore and cities and villages have to pay local road millages to make up the difference in town. Those in the townships need to do the same or stop complaining.
1bit
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 11:41 p.m.
Elephant in the room: US-23 is a disaster southbound in the mornings and northbound in the evenings. Overflow goes to N. Territorial. More traffic means more wear and tear. Fixing N. Territorial is needed (I drive it and bike it) but so is a better solution for the US-23 bottleneck in that area.
fjord
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 8:24 p.m.
People say they want lower taxes, and then they complain about crappy roads. You can't have lower taxes AND good roads, folks.
A A Resident
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 9:10 p.m.
Why not? In the private sector, we figure out how to provide a better product or service at a lower cost all the time. It's often necessary, to survive the competition, and stay in business. Maybe something could be learned from this?
A A Resident
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 8 p.m.
Oh shoot, I'm not sure there's enough money in my budget to pay my taxes. I expect that the government will be very receptive to this excuse, since they seem to be well-versed in using budget shortfalls to explain lack of performance.
JimmyD
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 6:38 p.m.
Just for grins: if this FY2010 data is correct: Average Total State Spending: $5,251 per capita. Michigan $4,832 good for 36st lowest of the 50 States. So maybe we: 1) get what we pay for; 2) can't build roads worth a darn; 3) have too many roads to maintain; 4) All of the Above. Please reply with your vote !
Rod Johnson
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 9:23 p.m.
What we really need is a per capita per mile ranking. What's your source?
snark12
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 7:07 p.m.
Michigan is also 37th in rank of total state plus local tax rates, so that sounds about right.
JimmyD
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 6:49 p.m.
And, just because I find it interesting: Alaska is #1 with $13,741 and Nevada $3,068 is lowest.
MgoBlueMomma
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 6:08 p.m.
Some people are so quick to blame the WCRC instead up understanding. They do not have funding for everything. I am sure alot of them would agree that it needs to be fixed. But funding it the most important thing. The money does not come as often as it did and there is alot more traffic now vs. 10 years ago. So before we get on here and blast the workers and such. Let's try to understand before we complain.
Nicholas Urfe
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 5:58 p.m.
So nobody can cite a state with worse roads than Michigan? And you think it is merely a coincidence that we allow the heaviest trucks in the nation? How many times over the years have we heard our government say they "just need more money to fix the roads"? And they never get fixed.
Dilbert
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 6:17 p.m.
The PER AXLE weight limit in Michigan is lower than everyone else.
martini man
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 5:37 p.m.
The solution is always very simple for politicians. RAISE taxes and keep raising them. And when the money is all spent and/ or wasted, raise 'em again.
martini man
Tue, May 14, 2013 : 1:33 a.m.
I rest my case ..higher and higher taxes ..just like I said . the waste won't stop, so more taxes are the only answer. But it will take a few years for it to filter down. So good luck all you territorial Road commuters.
snark12
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 7:19 p.m.
Total tax revenue (federal, state, and local) as a percentage of the economy has been relatively flat since the late 80s. It went up in the late 90s, took a huge drop at the end of the last decade (state+local revenue really tanked), and now has been rising a little in the last year as the economy improves and as recent tax increases come online. Looking long term, the federal tax collection has been basically flat since the mid 1950s. State and local revenue collection has grown over that period. But not as much in Michigan where we currently rank 37th nationally in state+local tax rates. Thus, our roads suck compared to most other states. http://tinyurl.com/d5u8ccf
SalineTeacher
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 5:53 p.m.
How do YOU specifically propose the roads be fixed? You need approximately $1.2 billion more EACH YEAR just to keep them from worsening.
Tim Hornton
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 5:16 p.m.
This money is needed for lazy welfare moms and medicaid people. Get over it.
Basic Bob
Tue, May 14, 2013 : 1:39 a.m.
It's needed for rich retirees so they can keep both of their homes.
A A Resident
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 5:02 p.m.
It's the same old government mantra: "We could make everything all hunky-dory, if you folks would just give us more money." When have they ever said otherwise? Letting roads deteriorate is one of the most conspicuous ways of claiming underfunding. In the meantime, many of us private sector small business owners have found ways to provide the same level of service, despite reduced budgets and tough times.
Nicholas Urfe
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 4:33 p.m.
Raise the fees on the heavy trucks that use our roads.
edredneck
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 10:54 p.m.
Have you checked and found out how much they're paying now???
Ghost of Tom Joad
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 4:20 p.m.
I would like to know if the city plans on holding the construction company that built the student housing of Forest responsible for all the damage that they did to the road. It's been over a year since they finished construction (and destroyed the road as well) and I see no efforts set up to remedy the situation. Also, I sure as hell don't want to pay for the repairs considering it was a private company that did the damage in order to build their complex.
hotpants
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 4:18 p.m.
I think the reason why roads are so bad in Michigan is due to a secret conspiracy to keep all of the different types of automotive companies in business...
leaguebus
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 8:39 p.m.
Another conspiracy, isn't Benghazi enough for now?
Ghost of Tom Joad
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 4:18 p.m.
Ann Arbor is a bad situation, in a bad state. If the city would be willing to pay the county road commission to plow the roads instead of taking care of it on their own (we've seen how well of a job they do of that), we'd be in much better shape.
leaguebus
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 8:38 p.m.
It's time to form the great state of Ann Arbor!
leaguebus
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 4:18 p.m.
The Diesel fuel tax is $.05 less than gasoline. Does that sound like trucks are paying their fair share? Plus, none of the fuel taxes have been raised for years. The cost of Road repairs is subject to inflation so never raising fuel taxes just gets less done each year. It's time for the tax cutting smaller government people to wake up. Our roads, especially in Washtenaw County, are mostly miserable and they will get worse without more funding. The less taxes and smaller government Republicans have had their way for over 30 years and our roads and public education are almost beyond saving. So much for David Stockman's 70's mantra, "starve the beast" to get less of the evil beast, government. We have starved the beast and most of the drivers in this county don't like it.
edredneck
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 10:52 p.m.
The price truckers pay for licenses is what I was talking about, not fuel taxes.
Forever27
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 4:13 p.m.
here's a solution, plow the snow in the winter and you'll save the roads for the summer.
treetowncartel
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 4:11 p.m.
Get yourself a Jeep Wrangler, problem solved.
Nicholas Urfe
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 3:51 p.m.
What state has roads worse than michigan? I have never encountered worse roads, in decades of driving. We also have very high income taxes and gas taxes. And we also allow the heaviest trucks in the nation. How often have you driven on a recently re-surfaced Michigan highway and found it to already be bumpy - despite just being rebuilt? The heavy trucks that destroy the roads aren't paying their share. Or if they are paying their share, the money is not going to road repair. Or the roads are being poorly built. And now the GOP and governor want to raise the gas taxes, along with other taxes, under the guise of "fixing" the roads. This is more of the same from Snyder - raise taxes on individuals and familes to enrich the corporations who operate the heavy trucks.
SalineTeacher
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 5:02 p.m.
The overall weight limit in Michigan is the highest in the nation, but the PER AXLE load is lower than everyone else.
Nicholas Urfe
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 4:34 p.m.
@leaguebus: trucks pay fees to use our roads. The weights are checked at weigh stations and regulated. We can raise those fees.
leaguebus
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 4:29 p.m.
What else can be done to fix the roads? We need to raise taxes so that the poor and middle class don't take the brunt of the burden, unlike the recent state income tax hikes. Looks like hiking diesel tax more than gasoline would make some sense. Raising taxes on businesses using diesel will raise the price we pay for their products, but this higher price is spread across millions of people, so the pain is less for the individual.
63Townie
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 3:45 p.m.
I drove North Territorial yesterday and I was shocked at how it had deteriorated in a year. What I'm not shocked about is the road commission crying poverty while Michigan residents pay some of the highest gas taxes in the country and drive on some of the worst roads. It's time the WCRC gets audited. They are slow to react to dangerous winter driving conditions and spend money where it's not needed on silly roundabouts.
Mike
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 3:36 p.m.
The commission has now said that they are looking into a county wide road tax. How do they plan on this working out? Should we place a 2 or 3 cent tax on our gasoline? This could create sufficient taxes to do some road work. The higher probability is that the people that create the mess will choose to travel trhough the county to purchase fuel. Even the residents that work in a different county will get their fuel wher it is the cheapest. Right now people from other counties will buy gas in Washtenaw county because it is normally a couple pennies cheeper. I do not know how the state gas tax works as it is... Does Washtenaw county get their share of what is sold here or does it go to the areas like Detroit, Lansing, Grand Rapids. Those are the areas that control the state.
Vivienne Armentrout
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 7:48 p.m.
Hate to tell you this, but I think what was mentioned is a property tax millage.
libertyordeath
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 3:35 p.m.
Part of the problem lies in how the roads are temporarily patched. Many roads are repaired in the colder months with a 'cold patch' that helps the situation for the short term. Some are upgraded to a 'hot patch'- a longer lasting fix- but the technique I've witnessed in Ann Arbor is poor and haphazard leading to premature deterioration. Patching can work if done right (see this link-http://blogs.post-gazette.com/index.php/opinion/open-letters/13389-the-proper-way-to-fill-a-pothole). After a while, large sections of hot patched road (but overall short sections of road approx. 20 to 100 feet long by 3 to 8 feet wide) should be removed and repaved without needing to repave the entire surface. I've seen this done in South Bend, Indiana which has similar temperatures and (typically) more snowfall than here in Ann Arbor. Large stretches of road aren't repaired for years because smaller but workable fixes are done on the needy spots. Overall, the repair jobs (either potholes or other) I see are very poorly done. The prime example is Geddes between Huron Parkway and US 23. That area of road was repaved 2 years ago. A few sections were removed to do various repairs to pipes etc. The 'patched' sections should be level and relatively seamless with the road, however, they are rough and below grade. This road will need repaired in a few years when it should last 10 to 15 years. Proper patching would help a great deal on our roads.
Michael Prozinski
Tue, May 14, 2013 : 1:09 a.m.
Agreed. I can't believe the poor quality patch they did there on Geddes near Huron Parkway. Whatever utility had to open that road should be hauled back out there to fix it again. They did a similar thing on Plymouth Rd a few years back. Re-paved it, pristine. Then, a few weeks later had to dig up a section and repaved the patch terrible. Great scheduling!
justcurious
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 3:27 p.m.
These roads didn't get this way over night. It has been an on-going system of neglect over many years. The problem is the influx of people who drive cars on roads that were not designed for the heavy consistent traffic they receive as well as the funds being channeled to other projects and personnel costs instead of fixing and rebuilding the roads. The budget is skewed and out of kilter.
Cory C
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 3:24 p.m.
I am a regular motorcycle rider, and I can tell you that I intentionally avoid that road due to the potholes. I very nearly got flung off once because you can't actually tell where the high and low spots are. And if you try and ride at a safe and reasonable speed (25mph or less due to the worse-than-dirt conditions) you'll get run over by cagers. Fix this road before it kills someone! Or is it going to take a lawsuit before you decide that you can find some funding?
Mike
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 3:22 p.m.
It seems that many roads throughout Washtenaw County have the same situation. There are potholes you can just about drive a truck into. The Road Commission rightfully complains about road funding. They do this as they continue to update and improve the same roads year after year. Currently this years projects are once again correcting minor issues on main roads in the county. Michigan Ave, between Elsworth and Ypsilanti city limits. This road is in much better condition than North Territorial or Willis Roads. Where does our road commission place these less bussiness roadson the list? They are all well traveled, the ones that are in rarual areas are the ones being neflected. Ask the commission why the same roads get fixed while others are just totally ignored.
edredneck
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 3:09 p.m.
In my hurry to get moving this AM I forgot to mention one more thing: The next road work crew you see (this is hard to do on the Xways) take a close look at how many workers are on the job, and at any given time, how many workers are actually working. I've several examples in my memory because the limitations in what a laborer (and other categories) can do. Near Port Austin several years ago I counted a crew of 12, of which only two were working. Truck drivers drive, they don't do laborer work; laborers DO NOT do carpenter's work, including carrying 2x4 used for concrete molds (and yes there is carpenter work on roads). Another instance in (won't name the city pop 35K) when a tree lawn (about 6 ft long x 4 feet wide) had to be torn up and new grass laid out. First a driver brought a truck up and a supervisor came in a car. There were shovels on the truck waiting to be used, but what happened is the supervisor went back and got a front end loader whose driver tore up the grass. The truck driver had to wait, reading a book, because he had to take the soil back to the wherever and then bring up the sod. The cost for this little venture was multiplied by at least 10 had it been done by the driver digging up the grass and roots and going back for sod. This happens all the time. Put the former post along with this one and you can see why road work costs so much...
edredneck
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 10:48 p.m.
To MgoBlueMomma's reply to my comment: I know a lot of jobs go out to contractors, hence the reference to the Davis Bacon Act. The act mandates and sets the prevailing wage to be paid for this or that job. You probably never heard of the DBA and even after knowing about it did not investigate just how labor unions (private and public) are guaranteed certain wages and along with the wages the work rules that protect one job for being done by a non-qualified worker regardless of his ability to do it.
MgoBlueMomma
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 5:41 p.m.
edredneck....alot of the jobs you see going on in Michigan are contrated out. They are the WCRD workers. But how do you know what job they do and what their responsiblities are???? Everyone is there for something I can assure you. It just may not be happening when YOU watch them. Plus they are entitled to breaks and such so settle down.
SEC Fan
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 3:07 p.m.
The sad thing is that just about everyone reading this article can name a different road equally in need of repair (how about Carpenter Road - between Packard and Washtenaw- or all of N. Prospect)...
Liss Miller
Tue, May 14, 2013 : 2:43 a.m.
Like I said, take Hewitt or Platt.
Ann English
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 3:06 p.m.
So THIS is the subject behind the video, emailed to me LAST week!
effulgent
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 2:48 p.m.
I feel for these residents. I live south of I-94 on Ann Arbor-Saline Rd.
edredneck
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 2:27 p.m.
Has no one in the comment area (or the AAN reporters) ever heard of the Davis Bacon Act, brought into play in the 1930s as a protection for white laborers who would lose jobs if blacks and black contractors continued to under-bid mostly union workers for road work and probably other government jobs. The DBA has cost mucho dinero for road work over the decades, establishing bottom line salaries with help from the National Labor Board and the Wage and Hour Laws. If you do a search on this, make sure you follow it through to the end where the WHA shows how the government (fed & MI) goes into each county or state and determines what the "prevailing wage" should be. You may have to consult a psychiatrist before you get lost in the print and lose your mind. Mitt Romney was against the DBA and all democrats are for it as it protects its voting bloc for future elections. The Frederick Douglas has some good information on the beginning of the DBA To those of you who think that trucks are not paying their share for road repair do a search on the amount trucking companies have to pay in Michigan.....
edredneck
Tue, May 14, 2013 : 1 a.m.
To Ann English: I haven't done a recent study of everything in the Davis Bacon Act. but I do believe that both public workers and private contractors are presented with the "average wage" mandated by the DBA and determined by the Wage and Hour ACT.
Ann English
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 3:16 p.m.
I guess you're saying that public sector unions (who cause cities and states to go bankrupt, siphoning off tax money for their members' health benefits and pensions and think they can STILL do so today, despite the shrinking tax base) are behind this result of a shortage of tax money for road repair. All of those public sector union members have to start pitching in their own money for those perks now, not just the teachers.
Billy
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 2:39 p.m.
Thank you sir for getting me lost in Wiki today....
edredneck
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 2:31 p.m.
Correction: "The Frederick Douglas Society" is what I meant to write.
jusayin
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 2:20 p.m.
Well, the republicans are in power in MI. So fixing your own darn road is part of the consequences. Even Snydlee, who isn't sure what he is...a tax and keep R seems to fit...knows we need to fix our infrastructure, but he has no friends on either side of the isle.
jusayin
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 3:10 p.m.
Calling all conservatives! Get your shovels out, buy some asphalt and put your sweat where your mouth's are.
SonnyDog09
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 2:07 p.m.
Could they fix more roads with the money that they currently have if they stopped paying five guys to stand around and watch one guy work?
SalineTeacher
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 5:10 p.m.
Many Road Commission projects are bid out--to private companies.
It's hard to hide from facts
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 2:03 p.m.
News flash for Commissioner Dan Smith - NO to Tax increase! You get paid to manage the county and the county and the State already get enough of our tax dollars. Figure it out. I'm tired of the same old excuses "we don't get enough for road funding" BS. There was "enough" to build all those roads, mismanagement over the years has lead to an inability to keep up with maintenance. I'm tired of hearing that "the gas tax has not kept up" where is it written that taxes must continuously go UP? Just when is enough, enough? Until you have it all? Vote to raise taxes and you won't be commissioner again as long as you are representing the conservative townships.
SalineTeacher
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 4:44 p.m.
This is probably why the roads are in such terrible shape: everybody wants them fixed, as long as somebody else pays for it. And the County Board of Commissioners is NOT responsible for managing the Road Commission's funding.
snark12
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 3:16 p.m.
Because there's been a huge drop in federal funding for Michigan and all the states in recent years. Those roads were built and maintained in large part with federal dollars. Those have gone away. This is what austerity tastes like.
jusayin
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 3:08 p.m.
"NO tax increase" "representing the conservative townships" ..hey Mr. Conservative, you are getting exactly what you believe in - no help from "big bro" Got a shovel and some asphalt? Get to work!
Patrick Maurer
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 2:01 p.m.
We pay some of the highest gas taxes and registration fees in the country, have the highest weight limits for trucks and the politicians use the money for new signs and barriers and other pork barrel spending. We do not need more taxes and fees. We need responsible representatives with the fiscal integrity of the individual citizens who have to live within their budgets. The well is dry. Time for the politicians to go on a fiscal diet. The MDOT needs to have a top to bottom audit and cuts made to any item that in not used for road surfacing. The material used is another issue that needs to be addressed. Other states with the same weather conditions have roads that have a higher longevity rate the Michigan. We are definitely not getting what we are paying for with the taxes and fees we pay now.
leaguebus
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 8:35 p.m.
We pay less gas taxes than most of the states around us. I believe that Ohio is $.29 for diesel and gas.
snark12
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 3:13 p.m.
BTW, Massachusetts has lousy weather but great roads, and a reputation as "Taxachusetts". It ranks only 33rd, four notches above us.
snark12
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 3:12 p.m.
This chart shows the combined state and local taxes for each of the 50 states. It does not include gas taxes or registration fees, which I agree are fairly high in Michigan. But we rank 37th in state and local combined tax rates. Our neighboring states with better roads (IL, IN, OH, MN, NY, PA, etc.) are all higher than us. http://taxfoundation.org/article/state-and-local-sales-tax-rates-2011-2013
Elijah Shalis
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 1:39 p.m.
Stone School RD could use a repaving to.
jusayin
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 2:48 p.m.
Stone school is bad, but there are just like it. It's getting so you need a Humvee to get around our county and much of our state.
jeanarrett
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 1:30 p.m.
Thank you, Amy, for covering this! The pictures in this article are not even the worst spots on North Territorial, by far--it is much worse in other places. I travel this road every day and have already had damage to my car and I was not speeding and did slow way down. Yet, in a previous article, one of the resurfacing projects was from Dixboro to Seven Mile Road (where the new roundabout is going in). If you travel that stretch, you will wonder why they are resurfacing this stretch of roadway. There is nothing WRONG with it--a few potholes that could easily be filled in. In fact, that stretch is a walk in the park compared to North Territorial!
Liss Miller
Tue, May 14, 2013 : 2:38 a.m.
There is not much wrong with Pontiac Trail, except the bumper-to-bumper traffic at 7 Mile in the morning, and again northbound, all the way to 10 Mile in the evening. There are currently 4 way stop signs at PT and 7 Mile, and we are told the federal funds will only pay for improvements, not repairs. We are also told a stop light is too expensive.
SalineTeacher
Tue, May 14, 2013 : 1:56 a.m.
The money being spent on roundabouts CANNOT be used on other types of projects. Think this is crazy? Talk to your Representative to Congress.
snark12
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 3:07 p.m.
I agree completely jeanarrett. I think the basic point is the Road Commission says it doesn't have the money required to fix the really bad roads, like NTR. So it spends its money on the cheaper act of keeping roads like Dixboro from deteriorating. If you step back and look at things from more than just one budget year at a time, that doesn't make any sense. But it's made worse when they spend money from some other budget to do things like add roundabouts which I think are a luxury we can't afford right now.
Frank Lee
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 1:38 p.m.
As stated in the article and my comment above, there are limitations on the funds received for road repair. "You can resurface good and fair roads to keep them in that condition" = limitations without logic. As if we have a large number of roads in good and fair condition. Meanwhile the majority of roads continue to crumble. I guess this explains why some of the roads on this year's project list are considered to be in acceptable condition by most. http://www.annarbor.com/news/list-of-13-primary-routes-that-will-be-paved-in-35m-county-road-maintenance-program-this-year/
G-Man
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 1:30 p.m.
I don't get the headline....... How many solutions could there be? Fix the road.... Easy...
Jake C
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 11:03 p.m.
Well there's quite a few options, actually. You can just keep slapping down asphalt patches, and hope it lasts for another winter. You can do a quick re-pave on top of the existing surface and just smooth it out for a short stretch of the worst parts. You can dig up the whole existing road and re-do it from scratch, and you can use a variety of paving materials, each with strengths and weaknesses. Or you can just rip up the asphalt and turn it into a gravel road. See, all sorts of solutions! The problem, as always, is finding the money.
Frank Lee
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 1:20 p.m.
"You can resurface good and fair roads to keep them in that condition" = limitations without logic. As if we have a large number of roads in good and fair condition. Meanwhile the majority of roads continue to crumble. I guess this explains why some of the roads on this year's project list are considered to be in acceptable condition by most. http://www.annarbor.com/news/list-of-13-primary-routes-that-will-be-paved-in-35m-county-road-maintenance-program-this-year/ Also, let's not forget that the State of Michigan wants to increase our taxes to generate funds for roads repairs while openly admitting that there has been no audit of funds in over 6 years. It's easier to ask for more money than show that it is being spent responsibly. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/audit-knocks-mich-oversight-road-151007524.html
Vivienne Armentrout
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 1:56 p.m.
This link keeps getting removed. http://tinyurl.com/cw6evze It is merely a post about state road funding, relevant to this discussion.
A2since74
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 1:16 p.m.
We who live in Ann Arbor City have to deal with streets and roads in equally deplorable condition.
Liss Miller
Tue, May 14, 2013 : 2:27 a.m.
If you look at the map of North Territorial, you will see it is the only road (I hesitate to call it paved) directly connecting US-23 and Plymouth. The other roads are either gravel, or do not go all the way through. In A2, you can take a hundred alternative routes- just turn right, left, and left, and avoid the problem.
A2since74
Tue, May 14, 2013 : 2:02 a.m.
Millages per se will not help when the resurfacing and rebuilding is not up to snuff. For example, South Seventh which was resurfaced not too long ago and is falling apart.
Vivienne Armentrout
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 1:24 p.m.
Except that we do have a road millage that city residents voted in to help. We are getting some roads fixed. Miller is underway as we speak.
Nicholas Urfe
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 1:10 p.m.
If the road is so rough that it threatens to throw your vehicle out of control, then you are driving too fast for conditions. Slow down.
UpperDecker
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 3:53 p.m.
Yeah I am glad they are finally fixing the roads and I have seen the schedule for the repairs. Unfortunately the damage is done and I will need to shell out a few hundred to repair the various parts of my suspension that are now destroyed.
Amy Biolchini
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 3:27 p.m.
UpperDecker, lucky you. Fourth Avenue in downtown Ann Arbor will be closed Tuesday for two months of complete reconstruction.
UpperDecker
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 2:38 p.m.
4th street in downtown ann arbor requires you to slow down to about 10-15 mph in order to avoid bouncing like crazy. Same with Forest. Same with Jackson. The roads are crap regardless of your speed.
Sooze
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 1:03 p.m.
On a national level we have spent trillions/gazillions on wars in the last 10 years and let our infrastructure rot. When bridges full of people start collapsing we might start to reorder our priorities. I fear for the 80-year old Ambassador Bridge loaded with semis, built for a few small cars back when. Let's hope Matty Maroun is finally through stopping progress!
pb
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 12:39 p.m.
You could have extended your blue line on the map all the way to Mast Road; parts of N. Territorial between Zeeb and Mast are in danger of reverting to dirt paths. This is what we end up with when the Legislature sits pandering to the selfish special interests of the corporate welfare state.
Amy Biolchini
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 3:27 p.m.
The blue line represents the wording of the petition the residents drafted.
fisherman
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 12:47 p.m.
I certainly agree with this. About two years ago N Territorial was resurfaced west of Mast Road, but totally ignored from Mast east to Webster Church Road, where the need was far greater. I could never understand why the work was stopped where they did.
A A Resident
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 12:36 p.m.
Everything can be fixed if we just give the government more money. Isn't that what they always tell us? Now quit distracting them, and let them get back to spending to put roundabouts at every intersection. The strategy there is to make us dizzy enough that we won't be able to think any more clearly than they do. (wink)
A A Resident
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 4:34 p.m.
"Perhaps we should avoid combining rants in nonsensical fashions." Why should we do that? This is a conversational format where we can all gripe about our favorite things. On the sensible side, these both happen to be related to questionable allocations of public funds.
snark12
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 3 p.m.
Perhaps we should avoid combining rants in nonsensical fashions. AA taxes have nothing to do with the Washtenaw Road Commission, and North Territorial Road isn't in AA, so the art controversy has nothing to do with this. I think roundabouts do help traffic flow but I agree with AA Resident, very upsetting that they're going to add one to 7 Mile and Pontiac Trail while leaving NTR to rot. The Road Commission spends its money making the roads that are in fairly decent shape better while letting the bad roads get worse. They say it's because they don't have enough money to actually fix the bad roads.
A A Resident
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 1 p.m.
Joe, perhaps we could commission a local artist to make a sculpture out of broken car parts, to decorate the front of the Road Commission building.
joejoeblow
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 12:45 p.m.
Round about? They can't see a round about from their office with paid parking and 10-3 hours. They should spend the money on a random international artist to import something they call "art." Maybe they could make some "art" out of the pieces from the broken roads!
John B
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 12:27 p.m.
Someone should follow regulations upstream to find out who and why federal funds are restricted in such a ridiculous way.
WalkingJoe
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 12:24 p.m.
Drove that stretch Friday and saw a sign in someone's front yard that read " Caution, Shock obsorber test area". Kind of smiled until I had to slow way down well under the speed limit. I've been on dirt roads that were smoother.
A A Resident
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 12:23 p.m.
"DeForest owns a dairy farm. The large industrial milk trucks that deliver her product to market have difficulty navigating North Territorial Road" Not to mention the milk reaching its destination as cottage cheese and butter. LOL
Homeland Conspiracy
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 12:21 p.m.
I bet Iraq & Afghanistan have a lot of new roads
JimmyD
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 5:44 p.m.
And if you listen to the chicken-hawks in DC, lots of them are eager for us to get involved with Syria. Politics before the blood of our children or national debt again.
Mike
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 3:25 p.m.
Why not... we paid for them.
brimble
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 12:13 p.m.
Kudos to the petition signers for voicing their frustration! Unfortunately, the list of roads in poor condition is a very long one in Washtenaw County. (They are no better in the municipalities either.) Collectively, we have to decide that maintaining and improving infrastructure is important, and we have to commit to a way to pay the bill. Until we do that, well, bumpa-bumpa!
David Muzzatti
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 11:59 a.m.
My 1966 Austin Healey cringes every time we drive through this stretch.......otherwise....love driving west on NTR.
dexterreader
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 11:57 a.m.
Everyone wants to fix all the "problem" roads, but no one wants to raise taxes to pay for the fixes. I sympathize with the people who drive this stretch every day and signed the petition, but how do they propose to pay for the resurfacing or rebuilding?
Rod Johnson
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 8:43 p.m.
What does the city's spending have to do with North Territorial, a road that doesn't go anywhere near the city?
Amy Biolchini
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 3:26 p.m.
I think the issue is here is that North Territorial is a primary road. In other parts of Washtenaw County, residents not pleased with the condition of their roads have opted to fund repairs using a special assessment district for their neighborhood. But with North Territorial, it's not just the local residents using the route: Many commuters coming in and out of the county drive the road. It wouldn't be fair for the residents directly to pay for repairs, so they're asking the authorities in charge to do something. Per the conversations I've had with officials, North Territorial has been pushed along on the Road Commission's unfunded project list for many years now.
joejoeblow
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 12:43 p.m.
The city has money to pay out the nose for art projects and some of the highest paid city workers in the country. Until they spend frugally, stop talking to me about increasing taxes to pay for roads that should have already been budgeted.
Nicholas Urfe
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 11:56 a.m.
"DeForest owns a dairy farm. The large industrial milk trucks that deliver her product to market have difficulty navigating North Territorial Road" We keep hearing the trucks are what destroy the roads. Make the truck operators pay for the roads. Don't ask the poor people of Michigan to pay for the damge done by trucking companies by taxing their old vehicles to death.
Nicholas Urfe
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 3:47 p.m.
@Justcurious: "We all want and need the things that trucks are delivering to us everyday." No, we all do not want and need those things. Many of those things are exports or items we do not use. The business that profits should pay.
justcurious
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 3:24 p.m.
We all want and need the things that trucks are delivering to us everyday. It's wishful thinking to think we can get those things other than over the roads. http://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-14011-28111--F,00.html I have heard that Michigan truck weight laws are the most liberal in the nation. Is this true? Answer: Michigan permits trucks up to 164,000 pounds on the system. However, different than other states, Michigan requires a lower weight per axle which more evenly distributes the load and reduces wear and tear on roads. MDOT engineers have thoroughly studied this issue and the result of this research is that heavier trucks do not cause a disproportionate amount of damage as long as the weight is evenly distributed over an appropriate number of axles. Additionally, trucks over 80,000 pounds make up only less than 5% of all trucks operating on our roads. If Michigan were to reduce it's truck weight laws to 80,000 pounds, more damage to the system may occur because of the need to put more trucks on the road. More trucks on the road raise serious questions concerning safety and traffic congestion. Several other states are currently looking at Michigan's axle weight laws and are considering adopting similar laws.
Nicholas Urfe
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 1:09 p.m.
@Kyle: Check the facts. The weight of trucks overwhelmingly causes damage and wear compared to cars. It really isn't even close. It is sort of like a set of stairs in your house. Going up and down those stairs thousands and thousands of times isn't a problem. But the one time you move a heavy object like a piano on the stairs causes them to crack and need repair. That is why it is so ironic that a business that requires regular truck traffic is complaining about the roads.
Nicholas Urfe
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 1:05 p.m.
@Ross: I don't care if it milk, sugar, honey or whatever. If the trucks are the primary source of damage to the roads - as countless studies show - the operators should pay. It is a cost of doing business and it should come out of their profits. How they pass those costs on to their customers is their choice. As for milk, a lot of people do not consume dairy. Why should they pay corporate welfare to subsidize that particular type of business? Who decides which businesses get corporate welfare and which do not? Would cup cakes make the grade?
Kyle Mattson
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 12:34 p.m.
Nicolas I think that may be a bit of an apple to oranges comparison here. A few milk truck on a county road that thousands of vehicles everyday isn't quite the same as the type of commercial truck traffic that many other roads receive.
Ross
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 12:28 p.m.
So you never drink any milk? C'mon man, people need to use trucks to deliver goods. If you ever shop at the grocery store, you are part of the equation. You'd better believe any increase in taxes specifically aimed at distribution of good will end up on the price tag for the end consumer to pay.
Mike
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 11:52 a.m.
We can complain all we want but until we start spending on things like roads instead of the mating habits of (fill in the blank), and other non-essential items, the money will continue to be flushed down the toilet. I'd recommend getting an off-road motorcycle, they actually handle bumps like that pretty well..................
joejoeblow
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 12:42 p.m.
Hey, I like my City Hall random art projects that I never see because I avoid that region of town like the plague. Build another Swedish crap-fest and leave Carpenter alone!
Vivienne Armentrout
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 11:45 a.m.
Read my post http://localannarbor.wordpress.com/2013/04/09/transit-transportation-and-the-money-question-iii/ for an overview of state funding for roads. The problem is that the funding mechanism (the "gas tax") is just not producing enough revenue to do all the work that is needed. My post explains how the money is divided up and some of the political discussions involved. The Michigan legislature is still considering transportation budgets, but the outlook for the ambitious package Governor Snyder put together is not good.
Bubba43
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 11:26 a.m.
Michigan has the WORST roads in the USA. They are REALLY BAD in AA.
snark12
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 3:23 p.m.
If you make the same trip during a winter snow storm you'll see the budget applied to snow removal in Michigan is also disappointing.
Amy Biolchini
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 3:22 p.m.
I drove through Ohio this weekend and the overall condition of the roads -- including major highway routes, primary and local roads -- compared to Michigan's is oh-so-noticeable.
Sooze
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 12:58 p.m.
Yes: I took a car trip a few years ago through 10 states which were all in great shape (and they have winters too but some have no salt) and when I hit the Michigan line I began to bounce all over the road. We have a serious problem.
ez12c
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 11:41 a.m.
My brother moved his family out of state last year. When I picked up my 12 year old niece for a visit she said "oh yeah I forgot how bad the roads are here"
Hugh Giariola
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 11:14 a.m.
I'll see your North Territorial Road and raise you one Carpenter Road (between Washtenaw and Packard).
Sarah
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 7:34 p.m.
Yeah, that cold patch on Carpenter is kind of a joke.
Basic Bob
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 4:20 p.m.
they threw a little more cold patch down on carpenter.the right lane is still unusable.
Amy Biolchini
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 3:19 p.m.
I've driven both many times -- and while Carpenter may be a mess, there are parts of North Territorial that seem far worse. Carpenter Road between Washtenaw and Packard is scheduled to be re-done next year, while there are no plans for North Territorial.
snark12
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 2:53 p.m.
I think North Territorial makes that stretch of Carpenter look like a glassy smooth runway.
joejoeblow
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 12:41 p.m.
Worst road ever!
Goober
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 11:04 a.m.
So....... Where is all of the money being collected now as taxes being spent? I would like to see a detailed accounting of all revenue dollars.
Mike
Sat, May 18, 2013 : 5:31 p.m.
I'd like to see a detailed account RE: Benghazi, the IRS, and wiretapping the AP but I never will..........
Elaine F. Owsley
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 11:02 a.m.
Huron River Drive east of Maple is badly in need of more than a lick and a promise, too. Much of Huron River Drive is great, but I wonder why they didn't finish the job. Would sure hate to be one of the runners on that stretch come the Dexter-Ann Arbor run.
Ann English
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 4:20 p.m.
You think a runner might fall and get hurt on that stretch of Huron River Drive during the Dexter-Ann Arbor Run? I've said so myself in a previous comment. If that happens, it shouldn't matter where the runner is from. They come from many other cities and from right around here. Not fixed because it's within the city limits? Then add this stretch to "Ann Arbor's north entrance"; we've heard that the North Main entrance to town is ugly, but HRD matches the description too, and is part of the northwest entrance to town.
snark12
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 4:01 p.m.
Most of HRD was repaved a few years ago largely with private dollars raised by the AA Bike Touring Society. The Washtenaw Road Commission kicked in some matching dollars and certain townships added dollars for various stretches. DIfferent parts of HRD wind through different townships, sometimes for stretches of a few hundred yards. That section was left undone because they ran out of money, and I think that's mainly because it was inside AA city limits. I'm not completely sure about that part.
eone
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 10:58 a.m.
So you make a formal complaint to the road commission and if they don't fix the problem you send the bill to them for your repairs on your car or truck. I believe they have by law 48 hours to fix the road the phone # is 761-1500 the more calls the more action
UpperDecker
Tue, May 14, 2013 : 2:49 p.m.
30 days? Jackson road coming into A2, has been destroyed for at least 10 years probably longer.
notyou
Tue, May 14, 2013 : 9:18 a.m.
They have 30 days not 48 hours.
Jack
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 4:36 p.m.
I don't think there is such a law.
John
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 3:53 p.m.
"I believe they have by law 48 hours to fix the road " That may be well and good for a pothole or two here and there, but when a road is in this bad of shape, 48 hours of anything is not going to cut it.
UpperDecker
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 2:35 p.m.
Will they actually pay the bill for car repairs? My car is less than 5 years old and it already rattles like crazy thanks to the high quality roads of Ann Arbor downtown.
Tom Todd
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 10:31 a.m.
the middle class is paying more in taxes and this is what we get,while the rich pay less tax,what a goof-ball.
Mike
Sat, May 18, 2013 : 5:30 p.m.
You guys can tax the "rich" all you want by you pay the tax because it has to go into the cost of all goods and services and is passed along to you. BTW I am not even close to being rich, I would bet you all make more than me...................use your brains and think this through before responding; all taxes are paid by consumers, period.
joejoeblow
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 12:41 p.m.
I may not be a 1%-er, but don't you dare include me with your jealous petty whinny 99% club. Get a real job.
Ross
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 12:25 p.m.
Mike, nice talking point, but the "rich" pay 70% of TOTAL taxes because they have 95% of all our money. As a percentage of their own income, the 1%'ers pay FAR LOWER taxes. Stop defending them with faux news logic please. But anyway, what a silly debate to have in a road condition article. This is not a class issue..... anyone that has ever paid any taxes whatsoever deserves better roads than this piece of junk.
Homeland Conspiracy
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 12:20 p.m.
Mike must be a 1%er why else would a middle class or a poor person defend the rich....my bad I mean job creators. I feel big biz need to start paying a lot more & we need to stop subsidizing big oil.
Mike
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 11:56 a.m.
Tom, it may feel that way but the rich actually pay 70% of all taxes in this country. Where do you get you figures? Raising taxes on businesses is also a tax on the middle class since all taxes are paid by the consumer in the products they buy. Be prepared to pay even more by the way, this is not going to get better any time soon..............
don5858
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 10:24 a.m.
Drive that stretch every morning because I have no choice, and it is even worse than the article states. How this continues to be passed over for funding is a complete indictment on how terribly the road commission is run. Keep hiding behind your lines of B.S road commission, apparently that is easier than making sound rational decisions.
Kyle Mattson
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 12:30 p.m.
I feel for you Don I would travel this section of road often, but now purposely take a different route to avoid this section of road. Hopefully a solution can be sorted out soon for those residents that do have to deal with it on a daily basis.
David Martel
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 10:21 a.m.
Amy - How about that stretch of Huron River Drive near Barton Pond? It's so bad and very dangerous. The rest of Huron River Drive was re-paved in the last few years, but not this one stretch. In fact, the AABTS (Ann Arbor Bicycling Touring Society) raised private funds to help toward the effort. But this one stretch remains crumbling. What's the story there?
snark12
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 4:04 p.m.
AABTS worked with the Washtenaw Road Commission to repave much of HRD as you say. I think the remaining section is inside AA limits and thus is not subject to WRD control.
tcormie
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 3:15 p.m.
For cyclists and joggers this stretch is like the moon. Agreed David fix the darned thing.
jns131
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 10:14 a.m.
Pontiac Trail between Barton Hills and the bridge at 23 is no better. The sides of the road have deteriorated to the point where you are lucky you do not go off the road. Plus they do need to widen it a bit. So, yes, I see their frustrations.
Anna
Mon, May 13, 2013 : 4:35 p.m.
Absolutely. I drive this stretch of road and area daily, and it is always a jarring nightmare.