Readers weigh in on Liberty Plaza: Are Ann Arborites enabling bad behavior?
Editor's note: This story has been updated to remove a statement about gangs in the city.
Liberty Plaza, a two-tiered park at Division and Liberty streets in Ann Arbor, is not only one of the most visible spots in Ann Arbor, it’s also one of the most controversial.
Liberty Plaza, and what to do with it, is one of the most controversial topics in Ann Arbor.
Courtney Sacco | AnnArbor.com
For evidence, check out some of the reaction by AnnArbor.com readers to a story published on Thursday.
Reader reaction ranged from compassion for the plight of homeless people in Ann Arbor to calls for Ann Arborites to no longer “enable” homeless people. Many of the comments condemning the park got the most positive votes and reactions criticizing those who spoke against homeless people received the most negative votes.
The comment with the most positive votes came from Stephen Lange Ranzini, who wrote he no longer feels safe bringing his children to Liberty Plaza.
“As a downtown resident for the past 12 years, I have noticed over time a large increase in problems and that other parks downtown such as West Park now have major problems with gangs and drug dealing,” Ranzini wrote. “Again, last night I discussed with my wife her concerns that she did not feel safe taking our children to any of the parks downtown anymore. This is a serious problem, which has a negative impact on the quality of life for downtown residents that must be addressed by the police and our city leaders.”
Ranzini wrote a column for AnnArbor.com in May detailing his concerns about crime in Ann Arbor. His sentiments on not being comfortable going near the area were echoed by numerous readers.
One of the sentiments expressed by many readers was that Ann Arbor residents have become too tolerant.
Dexter Driver pointed toward Jacob Dorsten, a homeless man who spoke to AnnArbor.com for Thursday’s story, as an example of what’s wrong with Ann Arbor residents’ attitude toward homeless people. Dexter Driver stated Dorsten’s admission that he panhandles to get money for alcohol, and has turned down offers for food, as evidence Ann Arborites are being taken advantage of.
“Quit feeling sorry for and enabling these ‘homeless’ people. Most, as illustrated in the story, are substance abusers not wishing ‘treatment,’” Dexter Driver wrote. “One reason cities have police is to keep the streets and municipal areas safe and available for normal, law abiding citizens. Get tough with these unashamed jokers and let’s retake the city.”
A2comments agreed with Dexter Driver’s belief that Ann Arbor residents are too tolerant of misbehavior in Liberty Plaza and looked to the Ann Arbor Police Department to establish more of a presence in the area.
“If the city put a strong police presence there for a period, then sporadically over a period of time, this would not be an issue,” A2comments wrote. “Way too tolerant of what goes on there.”
The comment that received the most negative votes on the story was one that sympathized with the struggles of the homeless.
Sooze wrote Ann Arbor is a magnet for the homeless because of the services offered in the area. If a crackdown were to take place, Sooze stated being concerned about whether the situation would go away and questioned what structural changes would have to take place to fix homelessness all together.
“The nation has hundreds of thousands of homeless people always being asked to move along and for them its a constant struggle to find a place to just sit down. We do offer food and shelter here and are a magnet, but do we suddenly crack down?” Sooze wrote. “The jail would be full at our expense, but more might head south than usual. This situation will not go away soon as most are substance abusers and not employable. Many are Vietnam vets and as the current vets get older many will be homeless too. We are a post-industrial society with no work and no place to go for much of our population.”
What do you think of these comments? Do you agree with Dexter Driver that Ann Arbor’s social services are contributing to unsavory characters flocking to the area? Or do you agree with Sooze and believe the homeless are getting a raw deal in modern American society?
Comments
Kenneth Nowicki
Sun, Sep 30, 2012 : 3:37 p.m.
Fill that hole in, rip out the benches, the camouflaging bushes, and plant all grass/ flowers.
quetzalcoatl
Sat, Sep 29, 2012 : 4:47 p.m.
At least chop down the trees, open up fields of fire, give the authorities a fighting chance when the day finally dawns that we can deal with undesirable oddballs as we will.
hadit
Sat, Sep 29, 2012 : 1:40 p.m.
Nothing will be done. We will be reading about this next year and the year after.
Greenradish
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 11:28 p.m.
Liberty Plaza is a design problem. Many barriers and levels allow people to hide things they want to hide. Remodeling it -- raising it to ground level -- means that passers-by will exert pressure on folks who have something to hide. That pressure will steer undesirable people out as well as any cop. Bad design like Liberty Plaza is what happens when you let an architect free to play out their fanciful theories. What it needs is a new design that is based on empirical behavioral science.
Greenradish
Sat, Sep 29, 2012 : 2:27 a.m.
Excellent aesthetics are entirely consistent with the science of crime prevention through environmental design. But we can agree on one thing, putting aside the influence of design on anti-social behavior: Liberty Plaza is not an attractive place, and it is due for remodeling in a way that's worthy of its place at the center of the city.
Brad
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 11:57 p.m.
... a design based on the lowest common denominator. Yeah, that's the ticket.
Brett Allen
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 10:27 p.m.
Can we all agree that the "homeless" are not leaving Ann Arbor. they're here to stay. just as closing CTN caused the people who lived there to become scattered and fan out across the city. adding a stronger police presence to the plaza would have the same affect on the " criminals" that frequent the spot. just cause them to fan out across the city as well. there by spreading the crime out into the city too.
nickcarraweigh
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 8:19 p.m.
We should clear all these homeless people out of downtown and stick them off the beaten track, where they will at least be out of sight. We could call it "Camp Take Notice". What's that you say?
Tru2Blu76
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 11:44 p.m.
No one said anything: the sound you heard was just Ri¢k $nyder burping after another lobster dinner. He's also been known to burp after having the state highway department shut down squatter camps like the one you referred to. ;-)
Sam S Smith
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 8:12 p.m.
Questions regarding those addicted individuals who will not seek help and are drunk/high on city property: In the event one of these individuals collapse for whatever reason, is the city liable? Yes or No If ever a citizen was harmed or threatened or harassed/sexually harassed by such an individual would the city be liable? Yes or No
Sam S Smith
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 8:06 p.m.
This is only regarding comments pertaining to "gangs." Questions: Are there gangs in Detroit which is less than an hour away? Yes or No Do you think that gangs would leave Ann Arbor, considered by many, many people as affluent and rich out of their equation or territory? Yes or No Do you think that lack of police, especially with all the news and debates about decrease police, is going to attract any criminal element? Yes or No If you were a criminal, would go to better hunting grounds? Yes or No
ArgoC
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 5:24 p.m.
Nobody should be making claims about "gangs" without defining what they mean by that word. I think there might be less uproar.
PineyWoodsGuy
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 5:04 p.m.
There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your fellow Israelites who are poor and needy in your land. Deuteronomy 15:11. The poor you will always have with you, but you will not always have me. Matthew 26:11. The poor you will always have with you, and you can help them any time you want. But you will not always have me Mark 14:7. You will always have the poor among you, but you will not always have me." John 12:8.
Tru2Blu76
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 10:20 p.m.
@Gramma: so if we want to be followers of Christ, we can only qualify conditionally by giving to whoever shows signs of being deprived of some essentials, is that what you claim? If so, then the missed part of your equation is that it's "popular practice" on the part of thousands to give the impression of "need" just to get a free handout. On top of that, the Bible passage you refer to is an alleged quote of a man for whom there's little evidence of existence, written BY another stranger who's only identified as "Matthew" - a name we know is not his original birth name. That "Matthew", "Mark" and "John" (all pseudonymous strangers) all report the same statement by the stranger we call "Jesus" isn't exactly solid or heartening basis for giving away that which we've earned by actual work. Maybe the stranger we call "Jesus" actually performed miracles - the problem is that the REST OF US cannot do so. If tomorrow I could take 2 fish and 5 loaves of bread to Liberty Plaza and multiply them into enough fish and loaves to feed 5000: then you can bet your bippy I'd be set for life and could live tax free for life after creating my own church. (If I could avoid charges involving the suffocation of the Liberty Plaza vagrants under a couple tons of food. )
Angry Moderate
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 10:12 p.m.
Ann Arbor is not a theocracy, and our city parks aren't ruled by your book of myths.
Gramma
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 8:26 p.m.
A reading of Matthew 25 indicates how followers of Christ should treat those who are hungry, thirsty, strangers, those without clothing, the sick and those who are in prison. It indicates that we owe them compassion and material assistance.
Tru2Blu76
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 6:36 p.m.
Obviously, the "you will not always have me" part comes from old timey police officers. For today, it's: May you always have locks on your doors and a Glock in your pocket, for you will not always have me, your local law enforcement officer." ;-)
Stephen Lange Ranzini
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 5 p.m.
@Gramma wrote: "A number of people are concerned about taking their children to the parks because homeless people are there. Could someone check out the number of reports of children being attacked by homeless persons?" At least two of the individuals currently registered in the Michigan Public Sex Offender Registry (PSOR) as living at the Delonis Center (our homeless shelter), were convicted of multiple sex offenses, some against children under the age of 13. In total within 1 mile of downtown Ann Arbor, there are 20 convicted sex criminals living in downtown Ann Arbor (I didn't check what or whom their crimes involved). Among them, curiously, there are 5 convicted sex criminals living at 1011 N. University, Ann Arbor, MI, which is actually the U-M School of Dentistry, so I am guessing that some game is being played there since I don't believe that the U-M School of Dentistry has a residence with five convicted sex criminals living there. I have two small children. Would you recommend that I send them out to a downtown park to play unsupervised? What about my wife, would you recommend I send her out by herself at all hours of the day or night alone to local parks? Now, please don't misunderstand me. These people have done their time for their crimes and are fully entitled to live in our community. I hope that they have mended their ways and moved on to more productive modes of living. But please don't accuse me and other downtown residents of not being in touch with reality or that we have unfounded fears for the safety of our wives or children. The Michigan PSOR is available at: www.mipsor.state.mi.us/
arborarmy
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 10:08 p.m.
I think, Steven, the best option for you and for your family is for you to report to the police all of the shady characters in town who provoke fear in you and in the members of your delightful if somewhat sheltered family. Surely they all deserve to be incarcerated, and I'm certain the police will happily oblige your request.
Gramma
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 8:19 p.m.
Sex offenders cover a large range of actions. It includes sex between a 17 yo & his/her 15 yo friend. Most of the sex offenders are not pedophiles, therefore they are not a risk to children. I don't suggest sending young children out to play anywhere by themselves. As for your wife, I'm saddened that she can't make her own decisions. You might want to also check the backgrounds of many known child molesters. They include doctors, dentists, bankers, etc. Maybe you should never let your children or wife out of the house. Oh, I forgot most child molesters use children with whom they have close personal relationships. Remember Jerry Sandusky?
Sam S Smith
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 4:58 p.m.
I don't know... I have great compassion for the homeless and the addicted however... When I tell people I live in Ann Arbor they always ask me, "Are you rich?" and the answer is no, I am being pushed out as I am lower middle class. But who cares? People also note there is less police here. Less police goes hand in hand with increased crime and gang activity to suggest otherwise is not being naive but is stupid. Hey if I were a criminal, hmm, where would I go? Bingo! It would be Ann Arbor! Is there an increase in home invasions and other crimes? Now regarding the addicted who won't seek treatment... Are they being a public nuisance? Are they self medicating their mental illness? What does A.Finch, Lisa and Gramma or others propose to do? Nothing? Or is the answer give a man a fish and don't teach him to fish just keep giving him a fish every day. Sad thing is there will always be people in this category, rich and poor, so what is the answer?
Tru2Blu76
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 6:31 p.m.
Nicely put - I would only add that there's also the question about what to do about the addicted who DO WANT to be cured?? My own experience searching for help with a cigarette addiction (and it is clinically defined addiction) showed just how little is available (aka, "being done") in that area. To paraphrase a popular saying: Invent a cure for addiction and the world will beat a path to your door. Obviously, nowhere in this world is there an actual cure for any addiction.
jorget
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 4:42 p.m.
I see street persons that I saw in the '80s. Some stay and find a niche. One of those I call the Mayor because he feels like he is controlling his world by placement of various objects. It would not surprise me if he was. You know the meek....
Tru2Blu76
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 3:43 p.m.
Another example of people searching for a solution but creating only an endless cycle of disagreements. But how does that happen? Given that the majority of those expressing themselves on these comment sections are adults, are law-abiding, are employed: then one would expect a quick solution arrived at by consensus. We are definitely not seeing a consensus solution. Let me suggest: what's going on looks an awful lot like egoist self-expression replacing honest civic spirit. We are - inevitably - all formed by our experiences as well as other factors like intelligence and education. Witness for example that we have mutually antagonistic proposals for this solution. The result (also inevitably) will be that this discussion will be abandoned in favor of moving on to other discussions. AnnArbor dot com's original article centered on the area of Liberty Plaza. (Is it just coincidence that their office is so close by?). And the discussion quickly spun off to include city-wide gang activity and mired in confusion over what the subject actually is. For example: the term "homeless" quickly became a replacement (or synonym for) for the term "panhandlers." A single term doesn't actually apply to every person who panhandles and violates laws and ordinances while taking over public property like Liberty Plaza. Lets be more clear: we can't solve the homeless problem until we make adjustments in our economy, we can't solve panhandling until we make adjustments in our own attitudes about risks to public safety and we can't solve public drunkenness or public drug use until we make adjustments (actually, breakthroughs) in treating addictions. Oh, and we can't solve the problem of gang activity until we absolutely eliminate the elements that lead children to become gang members. That's four different problems needing solutions.
Gramma
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 3:38 p.m.
A number of people are concerned about taking their children to the parks because homeless people are there. Could someone check out the number of reports of children being attacked by homeless persons? It's a real shame if their very presence offends you. The majority of these homeless are veterans of our never ending wars. Some are mentally ill who are deemed to not be a danger to themselves or others. Are they offensive because they are reminders of the faults of our country? Shall we sweep them under some massive rug, so those more fortunate can pretend that all is well. As is said, "A2 is 6 square miles surrounded by reality."
Angry Moderate
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 10:09 p.m.
I guess you've never bothered to read the crime statistics for Liberty Park, if you are denial about what goes on there.
Tru2Blu76
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 3:52 p.m.
You flunked geography, didn't you? Ann Arbor is 27.7 square miles, surrounded by the continent of North America. ;-)
Jack Campbell
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 3:34 p.m.
I for one am sick of these leeches on society flocking to ann arbor for hand outs. They bring nothing to our community but crime. Enough is enough.
Gramma
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 3:31 p.m.
I think I'll get a group of my friends together. We'll all buy hoodies and go have meetings in the various parks and afterwards go about our business. We'll call ourselves the Silver Hawks and leave our tag on various walls around the city. Don't let your children come near us.
Unusual Suspect
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 3:41 p.m.
Gramma, you must watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIHF4rVTK4E
Davidian
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 3:26 p.m.
Ron Granger said this: "What's the difference between a bum sitting on a park bench and a non-bum sitting on a park bench? Do the blums where flannel instead of fleece or gortex? Is that it?" Thanks for insulting our intelligence. I will tell you what the differnce is. The rest of us do not openly use drugs, make catcalls, poop in planters, and get trashed on alcohol in broad daylight. We don't accost people for money (for booze/drugs); we work. We don't drop out of society when things get tough. That is the difference. And yes, Ann Arbor enables this behavior by tolerating it and persisting the romantic notion that these people are noble folk who have fallen on hard times. Give me a break!
Angry Moderate
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 10:08 p.m.
Gramma - how many homeless people from Liberty Park are you letting sleep at your house tonight?
Gramma
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 8:05 p.m.
@davidian. That is a lot of anger showing through.
Gramma
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 8:03 p.m.
@stopcrying. I am opposed to eugenics. It has been practiced in this country. I am fully aware that most poor folks are upstanding citizens. The homeless also have rights as human beings. Many of the responses here indicate that many people would like to just eradicate the homeless from our community.
Davidian
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 7:26 p.m.
@Gramma: You got me dead to rights - I'm a Nazi. I want to gas the bums but I'll start with the grannies first.
StopCrying
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 4:49 p.m.
There are plenty of poor people that are not out pooping in planters gramma. We are a quasi-civilized community that is at the very least beyond the use of pooping in planters.
Gramma
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 3:43 p.m.
Maybe we should restaart the eugenics programs developed in this country from 1900 to 1974. Just sterilize all the people who are not fit. There were designs for gas chambers for euthanization developed here then used by the Nazis. This country appears to still harbor the basic ideas behind eugenics. To me all earth's children are equal. Having money does not make you more "fit."
CynicA2
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 3:03 p.m.
Gang activity has been discussed and/or rumored in and around West Park for many years, maybe since the 90's. I walk in that area several times per week, and have noticed more gang-style graffiti in both West Park proper, and in the surrounding area near Knight's Market and the AA Railroad bridge over Miller. Some new graffiti has appeared on a retaining wall facing Miller, belonging to the house on the SW corner of Miller and Ashley. Also, all the floodlights embedded in the sidewalks under the Miller railroad overpass - once used to illuminate the "art" painted on the overpass supports - have been completely smashed. No more Maynard Battery either, so that area must be just peachy at night. There was an armed robbery at W. Washington and Mulholland a couple weeks ago, too - almost unheard of around there. But, that clueless putz in city hall says all is well, so not to worry, all.
Carrie
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 2:45 p.m.
How is this news? I feel like this is a question that Ann Arbor.Com Staff needs to ask itself more often...
Paula Gardner
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 4:47 p.m.
Please take a look at my comments above. This is not a news story. It follows a news story by distilling some of the many comments on the original report.
Barbara Cole
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 2:23 p.m.
Being new to the area it is disconcerting to see all the the panhandling downtown as well as being uncomfortable or unable to take my granddaughter to the park or Liberty Plaza due to adults in various states of being out of it as well as asking for money. It makes getting the most out of what Ann Arbor touts as its attributes a non starter!
Gramma
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 3:27 p.m.
It's sad that you don't want your granddaughter to realize that anyone but people like her exist. All it takes is a twist of fate and you could be among the homeless.
mtlaurel
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 2:52 p.m.
since 2008, Mich has cut $ 50 million from Community mental health. half the 100,000 homeless people in Mich have diagnosed mental disorders. Michigan has the 4th lowest rate of bedspaces in institutions for people with mental disorders. Gov Snyder just appointed the man under Engler who actually closed 10 of 12 psychiatric hospitals. Yes, there are various states of "out of it" on the streets and sidewalks.
clownfish
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 1:05 p.m.
A2 should definitely restrict peoples freedom of assembly, movement and speech. Isn't that at the core of the Tea Party platform?
Gramma
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 3:46 p.m.
But Clownfish, certainly you know that all Ann Arborites are liberal.
Unusual Suspect
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 3:44 p.m.
Yes, clownfish, restricting people's freedom of assembly, movement and speech is exactly the platform of the Tea Party. Holy cow.
Jamie Pitts
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 1:03 p.m.
Why are we letting a small group of marginalized people dominate our thinking? It is a distraction to do so. Their presence is one of many attributes of an advanced, highly functional society like Ann Arbor, and not even the most significant attribute. But it might _feel_ like these issues are significant. Homelessness, poverty, not taking showers enough, addiction, male teenagers joining a group, or untreated mental illness, these problems cause us all a lot of pain. In our worry, anger, pity, angst, or disgust we might forget that these problems are as old as time. Are we really going to solve them? Are we really causing them? We need to design the various parts of our city to be inclusive. They are for us, the people. A badly designed place causes "unsavory characters" to dominate the scene, as our tiny "plaza" shows us. Liberty Plaza is in fact a misnomer. It is a compressed seating area. We all know what a well-designed park or plaza looks like, and we have not built one downtown. The planners who designed Liberty "Plaza" thought to try an experiment that denies hundreds of years of public space design, we are left endlessly debating about a fraction of our city's population. We do this instead of moving forward and building a real plaza and building a real park. We should not be so limited in our discussion.
Tru2Blu76
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 11:37 p.m.
Your premise only adds to the quibbling and distraction. In most people's lexicon, "civilized" means being able to function in acceptable manner no matter what design space you find yourself in. That does NOT include using a space like Liberty Plaza as a base for panhandling, muggings and as a "convenient toilet." If the designers "played into the hand of vagrants" - then it was unintentionally and completely beyond reasonable foresight. Suggest you develop a cost sheet for your proposed destruction and rebuilding of that plaza. Adjusting the landscape to avoid uncivilized behaviors seems more like the Maginot Line Strategy than it does a practical, affordable option.
towncryer
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 7:55 p.m.
lol @ stopcrying, i was thinking the same thing!
StopCrying
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 4:52 p.m.
lol @ gramma, Tommy Hilfiger is not in style anymore.
Gramma
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 3:50 p.m.
From the discussion, it appears that the majority of people would rather not have to "know" these problems exist. Then they would not have to feel all those sad and awful feelings. That's what allows people to buy all those sweatshop clothes, including Tommy Hilfiger, Victoria's Secret, etc. that the best dressed people wear and eat all that food picked and processed by people who earn less than $25/week.
Richard Carter
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 12:57 p.m.
If you want to help the homeless eat, direct them to the places where they can eat at no cost to themselves, rather than give them money.
leaguebus
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 5:44 p.m.
Saint Andrews on Division has free breakfast.
JPLewis
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 3:54 p.m.
The homeless shelter in downtown Ann Arbor serves two hot meals a day; every day of the year!
Lisa
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 2:55 p.m.
Where might those places be Mr. Carter have you heard of all the cuts because of the art????
Ron Granger
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 12:54 p.m.
What's the difference between a bum sitting on a park bench and a non-bum sitting on a park bench? Do the blums where flannel instead of fleece or gortex? Is that it?
aanative
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 7:24 p.m.
The bums tend toward profanity, begging or outright harassment, while smoking cigarettes and drinking from a bag. The non-bum doesn't bother strangers.
Davidian
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 3:28 p.m.
You must think the readers were born yesterday.
mtlaurel
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 12:46 p.m.
the number of people living below the poverty line has increased in ann arbor-so has the number of wage earnng households above 100,000. The park isn't pretty,but it's a symptom. The actual crime rate is down in Ann Arbor. The women and children falling below poverty and middle income households whose real income is stagnant or falling is a bigger and more serious issue than the transients in the park. Are gangs really an issue here?..Gangs are usually kids- likely in poverty and in hopeless situations...that's what is "bad".
Gorc
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 12:35 p.m.
I wonder what percentage of the homeless people in Ann Arbor are truly from Ann Arbor? As more local money and resources are allocated towards the issue, more and more non-Ann Arborites flock here to take advantage. BUILD IT AND THEY WILL COME.
Gorc
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 10:14 p.m.
mtlaurel - thank you answering my question with another question that is not relevant to my question.
mtlaurel
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 1:29 p.m.
between 2000 and 2010 ann arbor population dropped by 2.69%....what is the number of people you refer to?
zanzerbar
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 12:52 p.m.
Actually if you would check with the no. of intakes done at the Delonias Center, You will find that a majority of the folks there, come from outside of Washtenaw County. They then get a new Drivers Licence or Michigan I.D. using the Delonias center as their home address, so mail can be received and effectively become Ann Arbor residents. Contact the Director of the Delonias Center to verify. But that's a fact....Jack.
A2James
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 12:33 p.m.
Under Ann Arbor law, any group of 4 or more people can be considered a gang. At least, that's what the crooked downtown cops said in the 1990's...
Gramma
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 3:56 p.m.
Back in the 70's, a group of people with long hair were known to be social misfits and undoubtedly up to mischief.
Paula Gardner
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 11:59 a.m.
We also appreciate feedback on this "readers react" post. It's a technique to encourage further conversation on a topic used by others in our statewide MLive Media Group, and it seems like readers in other markets have appreciated it. We know that everything on our homepage looks like a "story" since all of the headlines are essentially the same and collected in a single river of content. I'm going to add an "opinion" marker to this one to help clarify that it's not supposed to be reporting, but a way for people to engage further in a heavily commented article.
kuriooo
Sat, Sep 29, 2012 : 1:52 a.m.
Ok, so I'm another reader who appreciates the issue being brought up again for discussion. I don't know of another way to have a 'conversation' in the community besides physically showing up for a town budget meeting. I certainly don't know of another on line forum to discuss issues relevant to A2, and I've lived here 10 years. I'm all for giving the moderators the benefit of the doubt - I can't imagine it's an easy job to pull a post when the comment is civil but is taking the discussion way off topic.
Halter
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 10:57 p.m.
ITs sheer shenanigans in order to increase paid advertising. Call a spade a spade.
Kyle Mattson
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 4:09 p.m.
Billy-As I stated if you have a question regarding a specific blocked comment please direct your inquiry to the appropriate location.
Billy
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 4:04 p.m.
You mean those opinions fit a VERY vague and arbitrary description you think passes for a "Terms of Service" so you feel justified in deleting comments as you see fit....instead of ones that truly are "disruptive" or "offensive." You couldn't point to one single other news site that has moderation like this one. Not ONE SINGLE ONE. Even the freep isn't as bad as it is here. Also....considering my previous comment had absolutely NOTHING against TOS....AGAIN...why was it really deleted? I mean....this is a article about comments....I'm even replying in regards to the moderation....which is on topic....so what reason do you have to deleting it? You need to learn to accept that your method of moderation has been a failure from the start....you're the ONLY ones for a reason. Everyone else has figured out that community moderation through a "report" system is INFINITELY easier and doesn't create the "you deleted my comment because you don't like the opinion" stigma that your little rag DEFINITELY has. Just look at the "likes" on the comments related to your moderation.....I mean the ones you don't delete.
Kyle Mattson
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 2:57 p.m.
Mike- Often those opinions are off-topic and are then subject for removal. If you ever have any question regarding a comment that was removed please ask in the guidelines thread or by emailing moderator@annarbor.com.
MIKE
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 2:53 p.m.
Paula, I happen to know that many of the deleted comments are simply stating an unpopular opinion, and are not "mean, rude, off-topic, etc".
Paula Gardner
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 12:52 p.m.
@Unusual Suspect - we won't stop deleting comments. You'd be stunned at the mean, rude, off-topic, etc. comments that people try to post on stories. Sometimes the on-topic comments that fit our guidelines are bad enough, at least for the average reader who's looking for a civil conversation as part of their online experience.
treetowntenor
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 12:31 p.m.
Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I appreciate reading a story that summarizes a very long string of comments. In my opinion, it gives strength to the "community voice" of the comments. Now, if there's another story summarizing the comments in this one ... :-) The "opinion" marker is a good idea, IMO. In general, thanks to Paula and the aa.com staff for staying on top of this issue.
Unusual Suspect
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 12:29 p.m.
If you really want to "further conversation," stop deleting comments.
Paula Gardner
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 11:55 a.m.
The question "are there gangs in Ann Arbor?" begs for further reporting - and the inclusion of other communities in Washtenaw County in that reporting. On a personal level, I'd appreciate hearing how the definition of gang is used by police, too. I think many of us recall the 1980s images of clearly defined "members" and know we don't see that on a daily basis - but what is happening with affiliations among criminals (or even wanna-bes) can be hidden from the average person.
Tru2Blu76
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 11:12 p.m.
I agree: it's important to define what's being talked about. Regarding "gang activity" - it's too generalized. I myself have been threatened, followed and harassed by "a group" of teens in a car. At one point, I found myself on foot and was aware they could cut me off from running to my nearby apartment. This was probably NOT gang activity, just "scare you silly" romping by high school guys. That doesn't mean it was harmless fun - in fact I was really scared because of my age and health. That's one of the factors which led to me getting a ( renewed) license to carry a concealed pistol. OTH: in 1996 (if memory serves) I was pursued and harassed over a month's time by actual gang members. This was because I had "dared" to get between two youngsters (one was only about 12) and their intended victims: a mother and her adult daughter who had just been grocery shopping when the 2 youths started threatening them ("I'm gonna knock you out, you....racial slur"). I was greatly assisted by AAPD detectives and a couple of "experienced" friends so I avoided being killed until... a gun fight between gang members resulted in the "accidental" death of a girl who was a junior at Pioneer High. That girl's death triggered a massive response by AAPD, Ypsi PD, Washtenaw Sheriff's Dept. and the DEA. That's what broke off the effort to kill me - and THAT was definitely "gang activity" right here in Ann Arbor.
Paula Gardner
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 4:46 p.m.
@annarboral: I hope you had a chance to read the original story on Liberty Plaza, which was exactly the reporting that you describe. We're presenting this neither as a news report on Liberty Plaza nor as the only headline on this issue. In the world of print, this would be on the opinion page or a sidebar to the news story. If you're a print reader, you saw the original report on the front page of Thursday's paper. If you missed the web version yesterday, you can follow the link in the 2nd paragraph of this comments post.
annarboral
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 3:48 p.m.
You are the reporter, right? Get out of your office and try to learn about what's happening with your own eyes and ears. Asking for internet comments and then consolidating them is not reporting, it's a waste of time. It's the reason that the Ann Arbor News went out of business. It's the reason annarbor.com will probably fail. There are all kinds of BLOGs. What we really need is real investigative reporting that's filled with data and facts.
Stephen Lange Ranzini
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 11:49 a.m.
Thanks, @Paula Gardner for amending the article to eliminate the sentence that @JPLewis and @Brenda Kerr were responding to in their posts, and thanks to you two for speaking up! The truth is sometimes inconvenient, but the only way we'll change the situation is to inform the public what is going on, so that our city leaders are changed or the current city leaders change their attitude about underfunding the police, which need more resources to conduct investigations of criminal rings, whether they are gangs dealing drugs or gangs invading homes or rings that fence stolen goods.
mtlaurel
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 2:03 p.m.
Are you saying the Park is a haven for criminal rings? I don't have that impression of it. Probably the police are working on criminal rings,if that is a problem. I doubt the police would be openly commenting on investigations about criminal rings. I'm sure the Police make aware to the appropriate people what is going on with criminal rings. It could be a huge,growing problem,or rather minor. At any rate, does criminal ring activity have something to do with the Liberty Park..if so,what exactly?
walker101
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 11:47 a.m.
Rename plaza to The Enable Park.
northside
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 11:41 a.m.
annarbor.com has reached a new low: running a story based on the comments section. What happened to the days when newspapers interviewed people and verified stories?
Tru2Blu76
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 10:58 p.m.
Can we assume you mean "newest low"? After all, this tactic is just the latest in a long string of efforts to keep AnnArbor dot com rolling. ;-)
Unusual Suspect
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 12:28 p.m.
"everyone chipped in on this one " Well, yeah, I mean it must have taken dozens of man-hours to write and prepare it!
brian123
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 12:20 p.m.
Story authored by "Annarbor.com staff". Apparently no lead columnist...everyone chipped in on this one :)
JPLewis
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 11:36 a.m.
"There is little, if any, evidence to support Ranzini's assertion that Ann Arbor has gangs present in the city." Huh? Talk to any high school student, They will tell you differently.
Billy
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 4:12 p.m.
I'm naive....lol....ok there you go.....haha! You guys have fun being scared of organized crime in A2....lolololol I'm going to remember this and throw it in everyone's face later.
Gramma
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 4:01 p.m.
Teenagers have always been regarded as a menace to society. As they seek to develop their independence, they begin to question authority and want to know why we are like we are. They also dress differently to show they are a new, upcoming generation. Is this the boomers and flower children who are now so afraid of their own grandchildren?
JPLewis
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 3:52 p.m.
I think Billy is naive. That is the age group f most gang members. Drug dealing and robberies by that age group is very common and IS occurring in A2.
Billy
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 1:33 p.m.
That is ENTIRELY my point. Those are NOT gangs.....those are silly high school kids playing "gang." You might as well call every clique you see a "gang."
a2grateful
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 10:58 a.m.
I have: a) Bought meals for those asking me for money, sitting and talking with them in a restaurant, while they (or we) eat. I have learned about them and their stories. They usually ask me about my life and stories. These interactions have been profound for me. b) Volunteered in many homeless missions such as Delonis, numerous food kitchens, Alpha House, IHN, Food Gatherers, and Salvation Army. I have donated time and money in these organized, programmed efforts. c) Decided against giving cash to soliciting strangers on the street. I'll talk with them to find out if they know about assistance resources available to them. 98% of the time they do. 2% of the time they do not. d) Learned about a concept of "nurturing the spirit of poverty." It is a difficult one to understand and counteract. I appreciate this discussion on a2.com. It lends insight to the ideas and experiences of my neighbors. Thank you.
kuriooo
Sat, Sep 29, 2012 : 1:46 a.m.
I think this is a fantastic way to handle solicitations. The limited experiences I have had with folks on the streets lead me to believe it is an incredibly isolating experience, and taking the time to interact is both a huge gift and far more personal investment than just throwing a dollar and walking away.
a2grateful
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 10:12 p.m.
Hey, Lisa, You are absolutely correct. . . It's one world, one neighborhood, one human race. I am glad someone was helpful to you in your time of need. It sounds like you are my type of person: one that is willing to lend a hand, having been in a tough situation yourself. The amazing thing is that every person is always on the verge of needing help due to some type of misfortune. Some know it. Others do not. We all live numbered days. Peace and blessings for you and yours!
towncryer
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 8:04 p.m.
is "fraudulent land contract" code for mortgage?
Lisa
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 2:54 p.m.
Thank you that is what I had asked and done in the past myself sat when I had moments in life to pander listened to their personal stories I did not feel threatened in any way nor scared. My point was these are our people our community and we all have stories. With all the cuts to the program we have more and more people, family and children. Parents that cannot feed their teens that then feel burdened to runaway. I have listened I have helped and I thank you for your reply. One planet one people please.I was deleted for making such a statement you did so so eloquently. I was almost there because of a fraudulent land contract and a stranger helped me. So until it hits someone that has no family or does have a family that doesn't care they will judge a book by its cover not its content. Keep up your wonderful work .
Billy
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 11:28 a.m.
I've had a homeless guy get angry because I gave him a gift certificate for free food before.....after he just said, "spare any change...I'm hungry." I've also handed my leftover pizza box to a couple of homeless guys and practically received royal praise for it. When what you hand out is food and not cash....the sincere people tend to shine through.
Alan Goldsmith
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 10:50 a.m.
Can I make a comment on the comments on the story's comments?
Billy
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 10:50 a.m.
You guys DO realize that Ann Arbor is NATIONALLY FAMOUS amongst the transient community.... right? Homeless people come here from all over the country because the spanging is so good here. Both ignorantly compationate locals and naieve college students make the handouts plentyful.
Stephen Lange Ranzini
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 10:43 a.m.
"Readers weigh in on Liberty Plaza: Are Ann Arborites enabling bad behavior?" Certainly our city leaders encouraged bad behavior at this pocket park by enabling "Occupy Ann Arbor" to continuously monopolize it's use over for many months last year.
Stephen Lange Ranzini
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 12:35 p.m.
@Rusty Shackelford: For 21 years I was proud to say I was President of a "bank" or bank holding company, then Wall Street "investment banks" suddenly became "banks" overnight during the financial crisis and ruined our brand. Now and for the past 3 years, I say that I am president of a "community bank". If you haven't seen it, I highly recommend the documentary "Inside Job" which won the Oscar for Best Documentary a couple of years ago. Community banks and the "Small is Beautiful" philosophy of E.F. Schumacher are part of the solution, not part of the problem. It's the Wall Street "Investment Banks" that we should all be upset at.
rusty shackelford
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 12:13 p.m.
Haha...says the banker.
craigjjs
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 11:12 a.m.
None of these problems existed before Occupy Ann Arbor?
smokeblwr
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 10:41 a.m.
I'd like to comment on the story about the comments.
Stephen Lange Ranzini
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 10:36 a.m.
If I hadn't seen and observed the gang assembled in West Park that day, I wouldn't have believed my statement either. I wrote a column earlier in the year that included additional evidence of gang criminal activity in our area which you can read at: http://www.annarbor.com/news/opinion/ann-arbor-lacks-adequate-policing-levels-to-keep-the-city-safe/#.UGRJR66ZHQ8
sigdiamond
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 5:11 p.m.
"Sounds like your trying to instill a little fear to A2, nice try." He's just practicing fear-based tactics for his inevitable toe-dip into local politics. He's certainly laid down some pretty serious groundwork in that regard on the pages of annarbor.com.
walker101
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 4:38 p.m.
Stephan, these are not gangs, get over it. I grew up in a gangland environment, the hard core types do not hang out at the Plaza, they are the wannabes that deal in small time thuggery and drugs. When you have shootings in the hood and helicopters lighting the streets at night with sirens going on 24/7 and you need a swat team to enter the neighborhoods then you can say we have a gang issue. Theses are young punks that rule the little domain (Plaza) and that the local police probably know on a first name bases. Sounds like your trying to instill a little fear to A2, nice try.
sigdiamond
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 4:01 p.m.
" I can tell you what I was witnessing was an organized criminal ring. The group of 10 young men in their 20s all dressed as thugs assembled in West Park on a weekday in the middle of the day for a meeting, had a meeting, the group had a leader and at the end of the meeting, they all left to go pursue their business. " >>> Great detective work. Your case against these ruffians is unassailable. A group of young guys in a public park...during the day...wearing popular urban fashions? Have you notified the police about this?
CynicA2
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 3:15 p.m.
Gang activity has been discussed and/or rumored in and around West Park for many years, maybe since the 90's. I walk in that area several times per week, and have noticed more gang-style graffiti in both West Park proper, and in the surrounding area near Knight's Market and the AA Railroad bridge over Miller. Some new graffiti has appeared on a retaining wall facing Miller, belonging to the house on the SW corner of Miller and Ashley. Also, all the floodlights embedded in the sidewalks under the Miller railroad overpass - once used to illuminate the "art" painted on the overpass supports - have been completely smashed. No more Maynard Battery either, so that area must be just peachy at night. There was an armed robbery at W. Washington and Mulholland a couple weeks ago, too - almost unheard of around there. But, that clueless putz in city hall says all is well, so not to worry, all.
Billy
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 1:28 p.m.
"The group of 10 young men in their 20s all dressed as thugs " I just don't know what to say to this.....I mean..... Yeah....you sure saw a "gang." That's entirely what you saw....couldn't have possibly been any other kind of meeting. Did you by any chance overhear just one single thing they said maybe? You know...so you'd have an idea what their little meeting was about?
Stephen Lange Ranzini
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 12:03 p.m.
@Billy: I think you have a Hollywood image of what a criminal gang is in your head. I can tell you what I was witnessing was an organized criminal ring. The group of 10 young men in their 20s all dressed as thugs assembled in West Park on a weekday in the middle of the day for a meeting, had a meeting, the group had a leader and at the end of the meeting, they all left to go pursue their business. Like I said, if I hadn't see it, I wouldn't believe you if you told me either, because after all, this is Ann Arbor and how can Ann Arbor have criminal gangs? It doesn't fit with our self image.
Billy
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 10:59 a.m.
Sigh......no guy.....we don't have "gangs" here. At least not in the respect of "detroit" or "LA" type gangs. You know...the stuff hollywood likes to pump out. What you saw was a group of people you assumed were a "gang." Maybe they all had similar color clothing on. Just cause you dress like a gangbanger doesn't make you one. What we DO have are wannabes though. Umpteen different "folk nation" divisions specifically. I wouldn't call them a gang though...they're more of a joke. If these little "cliques" were to encounter REAL gang members...they would probably be assaulted on sight or worse.
Chip Reed
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 10:30 a.m.
I don't believe that Ann Arbor's social services contributing to people flocking here and the idea that the homeless are getting a raw deal in modern society are necessarily in contradiction to each other.
A2comments
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 10:29 a.m.
A story about a story about a story about...
Ann Dwyer
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 5:23 p.m.
something...something..Inception!
Jojo B
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 2:27 p.m.
And I'm making an A2 comment to A2comments about his/her A2 comments...
David
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 10:27 a.m.
Yes, to Dexter Driver.
Brenda Kerr
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 10:23 a.m.
I will make a comment about the gangs. I had some lovely graffiti added to the building across the way from mine and a Sheriff's deputy confirmed that it was a gang tag.
Khurum
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 10:20 a.m.
I don't even understand this article. I get there was a story earlier, and some people made comments. And then people commented on those comments. Now you want us to comment on the comments people made about earlier comments? I for one have no comment.
a2grateful
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 10:14 p.m.
Yeah, you could have been a writer for Seinfeld. . .
Peggy Lampman
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 10 p.m.
What great sport to make a comment on your comment commenting on others making comments on earlier comments!
nickcarraweigh
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 8:10 p.m.
You seem to be the only one, Khurum
Ron Granger
Fri, Sep 28, 2012 : 12:50 p.m.
Khurum, you are expected to rant against the people you see downtown who are not actively shopping. Anyone sitting on a park bench is obviously a miscreant who must be dealt with harshly.