Three-year moratorium on new charter schools could be devastating
Representative David Rutledge, D-Superior Township, is proposing a bill to put a moratorium on new charter schools in in troubled districts engaging in consolidation. This is, in his words, “a time out” to allow these troubled districts to get the act together. “It’s a fragile time for these newly merged districts and they need to have a chance to get things together to compete,” he says. “It’s not an extended amount of time, just a three year time out.”
Let’s think about what that three years in a struggling district means for students.
Three years is a high school education. An inferior high school education leads to a lifetime of not being able to compete. Apparently the special interest lobbyists that have Rutledge’s ear didn’t discuss those unintended consequences of turning students into a captive revenue stream to shore up troubled school districts whose management didn’t respond fast enough to changing revenue sources. So his answer is to place students in harm’s way for a lifetime due to an inferior education. I have a problem with such a callous survival strategy.
South Pointe Scholars Academy, a new 47,000-square-foot charter school, opened in Superior Township this fall at the corner of Geddes and Ridge roads.
Angela J. Cesere | AnnArbor.com
Another element of this “time out and chance to compete” for troubled school districts is the recent legislation increasing the debt ceiling for money these districts can borrow from the state to shore up their deficits. Representative Jeff Irwin wisely voted against this bill. This allows districts to put all the state taxpayers on the hook, should they eventually fall into bankruptcy for their refusal to live within their means or change their ways.
Politicians and educators seem to be paying only lip service to creating jobs and preparing students to be productive and prepared citizens. Their actions continue to shore-up failing practices, extend failing entities unreasonable time frames for change, legislate and influence the prevention of competitive enterprises, snuff out innovation, minimize parental influence, and jeopardize the future of the affected students in order to satisfy special interests.
I was one of those students whose inferior high school education took 15 long years to overcome. Providing unreasonable and unattainable “out” options to this protective and damaging legislation should not ease the conscience of such willingness to throw students under the proverbial school bus. Real educators should be outraged.
Rutledge needs to back up that special interest truck and park it because the cost of driving it is starting to cost much more than money. Frank Dalimonte Ann Arbor
Comments
stunhsif
Tue, Sep 11, 2012 : 2:30 a.m.
In David's world all that matters are taking care of the unions and screw the students, parents and taxpayers. Thanks David, we always knew where you stood ! Go Green Go White
snapshot
Tue, Sep 11, 2012 : 2:22 a.m.
Lots of strong opinions about charter schools. No one mentions the fact that they are actually "run" by credentialed teachers and admninistrators licensed in the state of Michigan. while they may be "owned" by a corporation or private enterprise, they meet all Michigan education requirements and are subject to the same disclosures The "public" schools are owned by the state and they are governed by board of education members who may or may not be educators and may in fact be business people who are respected in the community for their knowledge. Why is this different for a charter school. For those that keep mentioning for profit as such a bad thing let me just say that public schools are for profit also with 85% of revenues going to salaries, administration, and benefits. Charter schools dedicate a higher percentage of revenue to classrooms. They also provide bus service and comply with state law. It's amazing to me that so many of the opposition toi charter schools hold them to a higher standard than the public schools they support, and never seem to mention the students or the parents in there rants.
Tom Todd
Mon, Sep 10, 2012 : 11:47 p.m.
Rutledge for Governor.
debbie
Mon, Sep 10, 2012 : 5:50 p.m.
I want to know how people figure all charter schools are for profit. My son goes to a charter school that buses him to and from school everyday, and the majority of his school supplies are provided by the school. Now of his school was for profit I doubt they would spend money like that.
DonBee
Mon, Sep 10, 2012 : 7:46 p.m.
Mr Granger - Because the charter school do not share in local school district bond, sinking fund, or other millages, they typically run on roughly $7,500 per student. They also to a large extent don't get to participate in ISD millages. Cash - The real truth is that 85% of the charter schools USE a for-profit management company. Just like AAPS uses a for profit maintenance company and a for profit food services company and... Most of the charters were setup as not for profit (different part of the tax code from non-profit). Some of the charters are working their way through the IRS paperwork and waiting times to become non-profit schools, but it takes a minimum of 3 years to get non-profit status anymore in reality for a school. So many of the schools you are railing against will eventually be non-profit. I will remind you Cash that Mr Henderson who wrote the editorial you are using to bash charters sends his children to Charter schools. Mr Pot meet Mr Kettle.
Cash
Mon, Sep 10, 2012 : 7:23 p.m.
Debbie, I think charters and publics have their place. That said, I think it's important that the state review all of the schools in Michigan receiving our funds to be sure that all regs are followed. That's only fair.
Cash
Mon, Sep 10, 2012 : 7:05 p.m.
85% of charters are for-profit.
Ron Granger
Mon, Sep 10, 2012 : 6:16 p.m.
Perhaps you should ask your Son's charter school administration about the per-pupil spending, and for specifics on how every dollar is being spent. Average per-pupil spending for 2010 in Michigan was $12,000. That is $300,000 for a class of 25 students. Quite a tidy sum. And "non-profits" don't automatically get a pass - Blue cross blue shield is a non-profit and their CEO earned over $3 million in 2011.
Mike
Mon, Sep 10, 2012 : 1:39 p.m.
The way Democrats "compete" is to make law/rule eliminating the opposition..........bought and paid for by the unions which most of us don't belong to..........
greg, too
Mon, Sep 10, 2012 : 2:13 a.m.
This is a serious question. Why don't we just get rid of the traditional public schools and move to a charter only model? Let the schools fight it out to see who stays alive and cut all public funding to all of them? It would save the state and municipal governments a fortune, as well as the taxpayers, and supposedly would allow students to get a better education. Save on busing, 18 mils of taxes in the WISD, as well as he loss of tax revenue on the land the schools currently occupy after the city's sell them. One or the other, not both. There is no reason why wealthier parents should be able to send their kids to charters (wealthier as in able to provide transportation), which according to the masses provide a better education, while the poorest are stuck with whats leftover of the public schools. Put em all in charters or none.
greg, too
Mon, Sep 10, 2012 : 4:06 a.m.
I am for the moratorium, adding in that it needs to be permanent. We are creating a system where the charters are getting the top students, mostly due to parents who either are more involved or have more financial means taking their kids out of the public school system. Thusly, they are draining the students from the public schools and leading to their sad state and perpetuating their failing statuses. Put those students back into public schools (or give them the choice of private or parochial if they want to pay tuition), while adding the activities that these students are looking for such as non traditional sports, musical, theatre, etc. (using the copious dollars that they will now get for extra student) and I imagine the lower performing districts like Ypsi, WR, Lincoln, etc., would start to come back up. If your son or daughter are as brilliant as you think they are, they will do just fine and will get into the college that they want to (I am a product of an urban public school system who did just fine). If you take the best students out of a school district, you are dooming it to fail while almost guaranteeing the charters who get those student success. It seems so simple that I fear I am missing something.
YpsiGirl4Ever
Mon, Sep 10, 2012 : 3:44 a.m.
Well, Greg...that would expose Charter Schools for what they really are....for Profit Educational Institutions which would then have to CHARGE for a child to go to their "schools" for they can maintain profitability. Also, why should they paid to operate their "schools" when they're getting a slice of the pie of Michigan residents taxable dollars to payback their private -rich- founders?
thankfulmom132
Mon, Sep 10, 2012 : 2:03 a.m.
Your child, Your choice. It is a shame Michigan is dominated by selfish, self-seving unions. While other states are busy putting the needs of the students first, Michigan remains entrenched in the status quo. And,it is the mindset of people like johnnya2 stating to braggslaw "YOU HAVE NO QUALIFICATIONS to tell anybody if education is good or not." that is making parents flee to charter schools. As if parents don't know the needs of their children best. Charters have the mindset that parents do know their children best and they work with the parents as a team to best educate the child. This is the major difference between traditional school mindset ie: johnnya2 and charter school mindset. Also, Cash, please don't believe everything the Detroit Free Press says. Just think... if the State didn't require Charter operators to maintain any performance level by any measure, then why are charters closed due to poor performance and why haven't any traditional schools been closed due to poor performance? Perhaps it is the traditional schools that need their standards raised.
cette
Mon, Sep 10, 2012 : 12:25 p.m.
As the saying goes, you are drinking the coolaid of charter schools. Do you think a for profit isn't selfish and self serving? Why? Why so gullible? Because you want a charter to be the answer? Charters are just out for a buck, going with whatever angle will make them the most money.Sheesh.
Cash
Mon, Sep 10, 2012 : 12:03 p.m.
I'll believe the Detroit Free Press editor. I have not seen evidence that tells me it is untrue. We need time to review the for-profit vs non-profit vs public. I see no reason why anyone wouldn't want that reviewed by the state.
braggslaw
Mon, Sep 10, 2012 : 3:24 a.m.
When a state agency tells me they care for my kid more than I do..... I cringe. It is all about protecting income streams.
CityFF
Mon, Sep 10, 2012 : 1:35 a.m.
"I was one of those students whose inferior high school education took 15 long years to overcome." That's the biggest bunch of balogney I have ever heard!!! I went to a poorly rated school and turned out great. It is what you make it and you obviously didn't make much of it by your own admission.
Michigan Man
Mon, Sep 10, 2012 : 1:11 a.m.
Lets slap a moratorium on voting into office more dudes like Rutledge. Anyone ever read the editorial page of the Chicago Tribune? Try reading the lead editorial in the Chicago Tribune in today's (9/9/2012) newspaper. Solid supporter of Charter Schools here in Chicago in the 3rd largest district in the USA and facing a menacing public teachers strike starting tomorrow (9/10/2012). Tribune is staunch in its support of parents making the best decision for their children, not the Government making the best decision for Government lowlifes.
shadow wilson
Mon, Sep 10, 2012 : 12:41 a.m.
This discussion comes up routinely.Charter schools are public schools.They are subject to the same rules laws and regulations of all public schools in Mich. Charter schools give parents to opportunity to have their children educated in a fashion simliar to private schools.Each charter is a school district of sorts of it's own.Each charter has a board of directors and along with the principal to go to parents might find that more manageable than traditional public schools. On the average charters perform on par with trad public schools. Some of you may try to refute this ..... my info came from someone who sadly is no longer here but with no prejudice at all and as a top admin all over the country including charters was never dishonest about how well charters did .
cette
Mon, Sep 10, 2012 : 9:42 a.m.
Spare me, shadow wilson. They are subject to the same rules, and that'll catch up with them eventually, but how many kids will receive sub par education for the same problems and then more that occur at a traditional public school until those lawsuits from angry parents play out? Who the heck want's to comparison shops with their kid's education? Seriously, do you think you are getting the unvarnished truth when you show up and talk to the administrators? If so, I got a bridge to sell you somewhere in the NY metropolitan area. Don't be so easily fooled. Do you think it's a good experience to pull kids out of failing schools to move on to the next untested, for profit business venture that was supposed to fix the MEA, failing traditional schools .Whoo-hoo, out of the fat and into the fire!! Seriously, it's far better to fix what exists then to allow businesses to try to break unions on the backs of kids and bitter parents. Is it any better for the MEA's abuses to exist than a shadowy for profit CEO? I don't see that, and I think the state is using the for profits to break the unions, and parents are buying that load of hooey via emotional arguments while they are getting used. Like attending a failing, scheming school system doesn't impact a child, even as charter school proponents flout choice as a option, choice will be used against a parent with a complaint about the school after they arrive and attend a school.Great, so kids can really get guaranteed a solid education as they wander the scholastic wasteland of MI. Not. However, I think the high cost of fuel will eventually doom these schools. It's sounds okay to drive your kid to school, but not being in walking distance and not having bussing becomes onerous and more expensive every day.
Cash
Mon, Sep 10, 2012 : 12:57 a.m.
You are incorrect. Please read the Detroit Free Press article. You will get the information there.
mgoscottie
Mon, Sep 10, 2012 : 12:14 a.m.
Charter schools are also harming very good schools. I teach in a school that is hugely successful and we have lost millions in the last year because charter schools advertise like crazy around us and pull our students even though we perform extremely well. The idea of competition having no effect on public schools, or that it will improve the product is incredibly naive. Does the NFL need competition with other leagues? Furthermore, we are letting people push us into destroying public schools that we've invested billions of dollars in. If public schools start going under left and right, all of that infrastructure being wasted is going to cost us a ton just so our children can go to the schools that have been marketed as the best.
snapshot
Tue, Sep 11, 2012 : 2:32 a.m.
Your uncooperative and self serving teacher unions are harming your public schools. Charter schools provide some competition and are staffed by dedicated and credentialed teachers every bit as qualified as you. And the only reason the NFL can function in the private world is because they have a union, and that union recently threatened to disband so that the NFL would not exist during their last negotiations. The fact that a union has so much power and is so willing to abuse it and bully is a sad thing. If public schools are already going under and failing, charter schools are picking up the slack. We are throwing good money after bad into public schools. It's time you recongnize that and start talking to your union leaders because people are not going to be bullied into submitting to their unreasonable demands. Let's see what happens in Chicago....yeah, it's all about the kids.
towncryer
Mon, Sep 10, 2012 : 12:36 p.m.
Mick52 is getting closer to what is probably really going on. If my child was being threatened/bullied at AAPS and nothing was being done, you bet I would look into a charter school as an option. The new "discipline gap" garbage and it's "solution" (no paper trail) will probably make this worse. I am also curious, if the school is performing extremely well, WHY are people choosing the charter schools? I do not believe it's just because of advertising. Are there exit interviews? Changing schools is a big deal, as is carpooling, not being in the same school as your neighborhood friends, etc.. There is more to this than just successful advertising, imo.
Mick52
Mon, Sep 10, 2012 : 2:56 a.m.
You perform extremely well but parents pull their kids. Why? If your school is so successful why would parents change schools? If the charter schools turn out to be worse than yours, I would expect those kids to return. Perhaps it is another issue. Class size? Disruptive students?
DonBee
Mon, Sep 10, 2012 : 1:03 a.m.
Several times in history people have tried to create competition for the NFL, but each time (with the exception of the AFL) the PRODUCT that the NFL provided was so SUPERIOR to the product the competition created, that the competition failed in a year or two. If the public schools were like the NFL the charters would not survive.
dogman32
Mon, Sep 10, 2012 : 12:12 a.m.
It's all about a level playing field. Any school taking pubic funds should be accountable to the exact same standards. Why would they not want to be? Hiding something?
1959Viking
Mon, Sep 10, 2012 : 1:55 p.m.
A a teacher and the son of two lifetime teachers the reason is clear. The government requirements and dictates are a big part of the problem. Charter schools allow the freedom to teach in ways that are effective but are not allowed in public schools due to level after level of administrative procedure and government oversight.
Chase Ingersoll
Mon, Sep 10, 2012 : 12:01 a.m.
Unions vote, children don't. Ask the kids where they would rather be. Unions have enjoyed a monopoly over state run education and they and their management have done to public education what unions and "but I'm afraid of the union" management did to the quality of American cars in the 1970's. Even when I was in public school in the 1980s you could see the effect of the unions and how the quality and competence of teachers had fallen since the 1970's as more of the women who would have gone into teaching went into more competitive private and public sector fields.
Basic Bob
Mon, Sep 10, 2012 : 2:15 a.m.
@TT, College credits in high school is putting lipstick on the pig.
Tom Todd
Mon, Sep 10, 2012 : 12:29 a.m.
what a joke,thousands of children got wonderful public school educations in the 70's,80's,90's etc. with college credits also.
Ron Granger
Sun, Sep 9, 2012 : 11 p.m.
80% of charter schools in Michigan are FOR-PROFIT corporations. They are lobbying to increase their profits, hiring PR firms to push their for-profit agenda. They are lobbying to be tax-exempt, despite being for-profit corporations.
Ron Granger
Mon, Sep 10, 2012 : 1:02 p.m.
@braggslaw: "If it is not...don't send your kid to a charter school. It is that simple." Tax dollars are being diverted from public schools to for-profit corporations, and those for-profit corporations are not paying property taxes.
Mick52
Mon, Sep 10, 2012 : 2:53 a.m.
Ron what is wrong with for profit? Are you suggesting that people are getting into this to get rich? To do so would require high sales of a good product would it not? And if the product is good and people want to buy it, and they profit, then they have earned their profit. They will not profit if the product is not worth what people will pay for it. I have never heard of a charter school that makes the people run it rich. I don't think education is an area where one can get rich, other than being superintendent in a school district like Ann Arbor PS.
Basic Bob
Mon, Sep 10, 2012 : 2:23 a.m.
@TT, Bureacrats and public unions have been rigging elections for their entire history. Given the size of their war chests, there is no bigger conflict of interest. Example: Let's double the size of the public safety millage, not that we need it, just so we can divert money from the general fund to political appointees. Let's have a technology millage to pay for things we have been paying for, so we can divert money from the general fund for administration raises. OBTW, hold special elections to skew the results from the actual will of the people.
YpsiGirl4Ever
Mon, Sep 10, 2012 : 1:45 a.m.
Great point Ron Granger! Wonder who does "Frank Dalimonte" work for? Maybe National Heritage Academies and its' for-profit school corporation?
DonBee
Mon, Sep 10, 2012 : 1 a.m.
mgoscottie - Can you not see how the mounting pension and benefit deficit could undermine the whole education system in the state of Michigan?
mgoscottie
Mon, Sep 10, 2012 : 12:16 a.m.
Braggslaw, can you honestly not see how this could destroy all education in Michigan?
johnnya2
Sun, Sep 9, 2012 : 11:38 p.m.
I will say it again braggslaw, YOU HAVE NO QUALIFICATION to tell anybody if education is good or not. The problem with for profit schools in the first place is the fact that they do NOT have any reason to care about the success of the student, they only have ONE thing they must do. BE PROFITABLE. If you believe the highest quality service is what is on the minds of businesses, I would ask you if you think McDonalds has the best food in the world? They do not care about quality, they appeal to keeping people addicted to their food AT A PROFIT. The only reason they give lip service to healthy eating is as a marketing ploy. The american public has been brainwashed into believing the free market will make bad actors act better, That is just plain WRONG. The airlines would be a great example of a company that treats its customers poorly, yet still are in business.
braggslaw
Sun, Sep 9, 2012 : 11:10 p.m.
I have no problem if for-profit schools do a better job than a bloated public school monopoly. Why would anyone care if the product is better? If it is not...don't send your kid to a charter school. It is that simple.
Tom Todd
Sun, Sep 9, 2012 : 11:08 p.m.
it is amazing what some of these for profit school corporations have other business connections to that normally would be considered a conflict of interest in usual parts of the country.
katmando
Sun, Sep 9, 2012 : 10:34 p.m.
If the purpose is to make education better then it is a great idea if you are out to dismantle public education then it is a bad idea.
Cash
Sun, Sep 9, 2012 : 10:32 p.m.
Reading the most anti-public school posts makes me wonder....if charter schools became unionized would you still feel that they didn't have to follow the state requirements for public schools? I want to know all schools spending my tax dollars are following the same rules. The union issue is not relevant to me. But clearly it's the major concern of some people.
Cash
Mon, Sep 10, 2012 : 9:58 a.m.
Again Macabre, I posted on several issues this month and only one was related to unions....and it is only related to unions because you and a few other posters brought it INTO posts. Again please refrain from obsessing with me, the poster. Thank you.
Cash
Mon, Sep 10, 2012 : 9:55 a.m.
Macabre.....I help a position years ago in an administration where I helped with negotiation for my employer. That was years ago. I currently hold a different position with a company. I really ask you to stop obsessing with me, a poster . Thanks.
Macabre Sunset
Mon, Sep 10, 2012 : 8:44 a.m.
You said a few months ago that your job is negotiating these contracts. It's the one issue that's guaranteed to get a dozen or so responses from you.
Cash
Sun, Sep 9, 2012 : 11:01 p.m.
Macabre, Clearly you do not know me. I work for private company and all employees are non union. Not that it is really your business! But I will tell you that because your statement is untrue. And posters should know when you just make things up about other posters.
Tom Todd
Sun, Sep 9, 2012 : 10:59 p.m.
unions are not the problem,people need someone to blame. eleven years later I say bin laden started our problems & we played into his hands.
braggslaw
Sun, Sep 9, 2012 : 10:57 p.m.
I will pull my kid if I don't like the service. The special interests (e.g. unions) don't want to be out-competed. Ypsi and Willow run have failed, they need to die.
Macabre Sunset
Sun, Sep 9, 2012 : 10:40 p.m.
If following the state guidelines means getting the results these schools generated, then who cares about the state requirements? They talk about discipline gaps and achievement gaps. But nowhere do they address quality gaps or ensuring that our tax money is spent wisely. Let the free market have a shot. It can't possibly screw up as badly as these districts have screwed up. And, given your job, talking about unions not being relevant to you is disingenuous at best.
Macabre Sunset
Sun, Sep 9, 2012 : 9:48 p.m.
So we sacrifice the children unfortunate enough to live in troubled districts on the altar of the almighty union. Good job, politicians. Let your partisan affiliations harm those most vulnerable.
braggslaw
Sun, Sep 9, 2012 : 9:40 p.m.
Let's be clear .... Charter schools are accountable to the people that matter..... students and parents. If I don't like the school I will pull my kid... if everybody pulls their children the school will die. (as it should) If there are choices students and parents win...but unions lose. Taxpayer money comes from taxpayers not the govt.
braggslaw
Mon, Sep 10, 2012 : 12:24 a.m.
Jake, thanks... I think you got the main idea. Less than half the people in this country are subsidizing the other half.
Jake C
Mon, Sep 10, 2012 : 12:15 a.m.
"50% of people don't pay federal taxes.. " Not true. More accurately, 51% of U.S. *Households* (not people) in 2009 did not pay any federal *Income* taxes. There's some important distinctions there, one being that lots of people had massive income & investment losses in 2009, and just because one does not pay income taxes does not mean you don't pay numerous other federal, state, and local taxes. http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3505
braggslaw
Sun, Sep 9, 2012 : 10:56 p.m.
I have no problem with evaluation... But I don't want this sham to be used to prevent charter schools.
Cash
Sun, Sep 9, 2012 : 10:23 p.m.
All taxpayers have right to know that the schools they pay are following the state requirements. ALL SCHOOLS and ALL taxpayers.....
braggslaw
Sun, Sep 9, 2012 : 9:51 p.m.
50% of people don't pay federal taxes.. I personally support three or four families on public assistance on the taxes I pay. Thus, I don't agree with your characterization on taxes. People can assess away....but don't create the moratorium.
Cash
Sun, Sep 9, 2012 : 9:47 p.m.
Tax money comes from Everyone.....and every taxpayer deserves to know the record just as we do for public schools. If we take your philosophy we don't measure any schools....just let our tax dollars go...where ever. No thanks. I want them ALL to follow the evaluation process.
Angry Moderate
Sun, Sep 9, 2012 : 9:17 p.m.
Charter schools are public schools. Period.
Steve
Mon, Sep 10, 2012 : 3:33 a.m.
Mick 52: Public schools are by law required to perform an audit of their financial situation every year. The results are available for anyone who asks. This has been the case for years. If you don't know how the schools are spending tax money, go to the central administration office and request a copy of their audit. The truth of the matter is in general charter schools are not performing at even an equivalent level to the public schools and are pulling resources that could be better spent in the public schools. http://www.annarbor.com/news/charter-schools-no-better-at-educating-students-data-shows/#.UE1fYxir8y4
Mick52
Mon, Sep 10, 2012 : 2:47 a.m.
Cash, I do not see much "answering to us" from public schools either. We pay taxes that fund both public and charter schools and taxpayers have a right to support how that money is spent. Right now the majority supports what is happening. If that changes the legislature can be changed by vote and put in legislators that will reduce aid to charter schools.
DonBee
Mon, Sep 10, 2012 : 12:58 a.m.
Tom Todd Partly right - They receive the same state funding as other schools, but not the hold harmless funds, the capital bond funds, or many other local and ISD millages, so in most cases they run with between 50 and 80 percent of the money per student that other schools do. For instance the total budget (all sources) for AAPS this year is just a bit more than $14,000 a student. The total budget for the new charter in Ypsi is just a bit over 7,500 per student.
johnnya2
Sun, Sep 9, 2012 : 11:32 p.m.
Braggslaw, You are free to pull your child out of PUBLIC school at any time you like. There are dozens of private schools available to you. PUBLIC schools are funded with public dollars and it seems funny to me that the right wing wants CONSOLIDATION, but then wants to open more schools. These charter schools take money out of the system. It would be like saying, all the road construction in the state will only happen in the metro Detroit area. You are taking dollars from a district and putting it a company that has no reporting requirements.
Tom Todd
Sun, Sep 9, 2012 : 9:50 p.m.
Charters schools receive the same funding per pupil that public schools do although they do not provide busing this is one reason they should receive less funding, also some of these charters only allow 15 minutes for lunch,this appears to be unhealthy for many reasons, charters provide little when it comes to special services,lots of folks are crazy for these schools,a few are great,others just take tax payer money and everyone thinks it's a godsend because there is no union,a lot of these charters have serious issues that are coming to the for front.
braggslaw
Sun, Sep 9, 2012 : 9:45 p.m.
Cash... you are so wrong. I can pull my kid out of a charter and let the charter die....the public school monopoly gives only one choice.
Cash
Sun, Sep 9, 2012 : 9:26 p.m.
Except they are not answerable to us as taxpayers.....NO standards, no reviews. They just take our money. I think they should be required to follow the same standards, especially when they are not even paying property taxes but making a profit.
Linda Peck
Sun, Sep 9, 2012 : 9:05 p.m.
What we need now are more charter schools and more choices. If the public schools fail because people don't want to send their children to them, whose fault is that? I am for freedom of choice and a competitive educational field.
Cash
Sun, Sep 9, 2012 : 8:54 p.m.
From the Free Press article.... Michigan does not require charter operators to have a proven record of success before they open schools here. Nor does the state require that those charter operators maintain any performance level, by any measure (test scores, graduation rates, college placement, etc.) after they've opened. And it does not consider a charter operator's track record before allowing that operator to open more schools. It's a free-for-all, almost literally. And because there are no standards, Michigan is not having the discussion it should about how to harness the good things about charter schools and leverage them for use everywhere. Are for-profit charters better or worse than nonprofits? Are national charter operators more or less successful than local ones? No one really knows, because no one's really asking. Big surprise, then, that with the proliferation of new charters this fall because the cap was lifted (30 new schools, the most since 1999) we're seeing low-performing operators expand aggressively. Data compiled by EdTrust Midwest, a nonpartisan education think tank in Royal Oak, shows that 25 current charter operators have test scores that are no better or worse than public schools among poor children, those who are most at-risk of educational failure. Among the expanding operators this fall, several already run schools that are struggling or outright failing, according to the EdTrust analysis.
snapshot
Tue, Sep 11, 2012 : 3:43 a.m.
Cash you are wrong. charter schools do state testing and must comply with state curicuulum requirements. They are in fact public schools. You also advocate holding charter schools to a higher level than non charter schools. There are failing schools and you want to give them more time and taxpayer dollars. I don't get it. Also charter schools are staffed with state credentialed teachers and those new and unproven teachers are hired every day by local school districts. Are you saying they should teach several years before being put on the payroll? Charter schools hire qualified educators. The owner of the charter has nothing to do with teaching, teachers teach the kids. Your opposition is baseless.
DonBee
Mon, Sep 10, 2012 : 12:55 a.m.
Cash - I not only read the articles this morning, I spent time looking at who is behind the "non-partisan" study group, and who funds them (do some digging and then tell me they are an independent group). I read their report, the report Forbes did and the report the Forbes article was based on Cash. I will stand by my comments.
Cash
Sun, Sep 9, 2012 : 9:44 p.m.
Don if you read the articles I referenced, you will find that it is NOT true that poor charters have died. How do e know there aren't others that are poor? Why should not a charter school receiving our money to operate be required to follow the same rules as public schools, in answering to the taxpayers?
DonBee
Sun, Sep 9, 2012 : 9:31 p.m.
Do you mean that to open your first school - as Jalen Rose did, you have to have proven you have a track record at opening schools? Ok - Anyone who wants to be a superintendent in Michigan has to have a proven track record as a superintendent in another school, same with teachers? How does that work? So far most of the poor charters have died a quick death in the state. One and done in most cases.
Cash
Sun, Sep 9, 2012 : 9:25 p.m.
How many failing charters are there?
Angry Moderate
Sun, Sep 9, 2012 : 9:18 p.m.
There are also many failing public schools. The difference is that they never go out of business.
braggslaw
Sun, Sep 9, 2012 : 8:47 p.m.
What a load of garbage.... He wants to doom a large number of students just to protect the teachers in the failing systems. The proposal is criminal. Let parents choose what is best for their kids, not unions.
braggslaw
Mon, Sep 10, 2012 : 12:35 a.m.
Well let's start with Ypsi and Willow Run where 90% of the kids are "doomed" (from a statistical standpoint) with some of the worst results measure bya any means. Parents in those districts deserve a chance to save their kids.
Cash
Sun, Sep 9, 2012 : 8:26 p.m.
Forbes wonders what is going on in Michigan as well. http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/09/29/80-of-michigan-charter-schools-are-for-profits/ Here is more concern about achievement: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/13/education/online-schools-score-better-on-wall-street-than-in-classrooms.html?pagewanted=all
kathryn
Sun, Sep 9, 2012 : 8:15 p.m.
I also feel that their has been something of a "rush" to switch to charters without enough thinking through the consequences. Of course, I feel for students that are stuck in a bad school....but just because something is new doesn't mean it's better...and doesn't mean that the underlying issues in that district are going to be fixed. Every new charter drains money from the district. Trying to bleed a school to death does not make it a better place.
Mick52
Mon, Sep 10, 2012 : 2:41 a.m.
A "rush?" How long have we heard about poor performance in our schools? I put three kids through K-12 and believe me, it goes fast. You can't really take it slow. If public schools were performing well, this would not have happened.
talker
Mon, Sep 10, 2012 : 12:55 a.m.
Teachers know more about students and care more about students than business owners out to make profits from running charter schools. When it comes down to providing supplies and hiring good teachers versus increasing profits, I trust teachers over people running charter schools as profit making businesses. As a taxpayer, I want my money to go to educating children and supporting professional teachers who can accomplish this with community support in the form of supplies, parental support, etc.. I don't want to pay businesses in trial and error mode with profit making an incentive that doesn't belong in schools that should be public schools. A charter school and turn away students and they are likely the students who need the most help and require the most experienced teachers, school psychologists, remedial help, etc..
Cash
Sun, Sep 9, 2012 : 8:57 p.m.
Right now the bureaucrats have decided to allow private for-profit corporations to NOT pay property tax. Right now bureaucrats have decided that charters do not need to meet the educational standards that public schools are required to meet. That needs to be reviewed before we go any further. Period.
braggslaw
Sun, Sep 9, 2012 : 8:48 p.m.
Let parents have that decision... not bureacrats or unions.
Cash
Sun, Sep 9, 2012 : 8:05 p.m.
I disagree. I think the Detroit Free Press article this morning brought up excellent points. We need to measure the success and be sure that the for-profit enterprises are truly fulfilling their assignment! We need to proceed carefully with public funds being used to feed for-profit corporations just as we would for public schools. It seemed to me there was big rush to allow for-profits to not pay property tax. Was that the best decision for local government? Lots of things to measure and decide. I think a moratorium is wise. Please read the Detroit Free Press article. It's informative. http://www.freep.com/article/20120909/COL33/309090119/Stephen-Henderson-State-must-get-tougher-if-charter-schools-fail-to-make-the-grade?odyssey=mod|newswell|text|FRONTPAGE|s Maybe we need to look at who is behind the curtain at the corporations making the profits. That might help us understand why there's such a push for more of them.
Mick52
Mon, Sep 10, 2012 : 2:39 a.m.
I challenge the use of the term "for profit" in regard to charter schools. Cash uses the term "for profit" three times and "profit" once more almost in every paragraph. I would describe your use of it, Cash, as a red herring. I highly doubt anyone is entering the education business in an attempt to get rich or seek huge "profits." If you have some facts or evidence that the "for profit corporations" (another red herring) are making enough profits to even call them profits, lets hear it. What they need to do is operate and end the fiscal year in the black, which many public schools cannot do. On the contrary, if someone sees a field that is not providing a quality product and they think they can do better for the clients (students and parents) while drawing enough revenue to pay expenses including reasonable salaries, what is wrong with that?
braggslaw
Mon, Sep 10, 2012 : 12:22 a.m.
Johnny, I have an undergraduate engineering degree, an advanced degree and another doctorate. I teach my kid algebras and science, I teach them how to write, I interact with them and measure their analytic ability. I AM THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN TRULY EVALUATE MY CHILDREN. My kids have been hit or miss on teachers. Where the teachers fail, I fill in. Typically this is in math and science.
johnnya2
Sun, Sep 9, 2012 : 11:27 p.m.
Braggslaw, YOU are unable to properly judge if your child is being educated or not. THAT is why allowing professionals to do what they do is the reason we have LICENSED teachers. It would be like you telling a doctor, he is not doing a particular surgery the best way possible unless. You ALWAYS have the option if you do not like the way public school teachers educate your children, to take them to a private school. Just like you have the option to go to a witch doctor if you feel they will perform surgery better than an MD
Cash
Sun, Sep 9, 2012 : 10:21 p.m.
The issue is to review the current success/failure...not get rid of charters. Totally missing the issue. e need to stop and review and make sure our tax dollars are being used wisely.
braggslaw
Sun, Sep 9, 2012 : 9:44 p.m.
I see nothing wrong with for-profit schools if the product is better. I trust my judgement more than special interests in determining whether my child is being educate.
Cash
Sun, Sep 9, 2012 : 9:41 p.m.
Don, the same measurement as for public. I want our state to be sure the tax investment is wise. Before we allow more (85% are for profit), we should see if all corporations are successful in following the guidelines that we require for public schools. If they aren't maybe we shouldn't j arbitrarily allow them to build more of them. But we need a PLAN!!!!
DonBee
Sun, Sep 9, 2012 : 9:27 p.m.
Cash - Not all charters are for profit, take the school Jalen Rose created. I agree ALL schools should be more transparent on how they spend money, at least if they are taking public money (tax money). Grading schools would be an excellent step in the right direction - but what do you propose as a grading system?
Cash
Sun, Sep 9, 2012 : 8:56 p.m.
Then why to we grade public schools, Braggslaw? Grade them ALL. And that should be happening when they are spending OUR tax money.
braggslaw
Sun, Sep 9, 2012 : 8:49 p.m.
Consumers/parents have the responsibilit of making that decision. I trust parents more than special interests.