The union mentality: We can do well without it
Those were some pretty angry union members occupying the state houses in Lansing and Madison. Shouting, chanting and hectoring, they were there to demonize two
Will Warner
Workers in Michigan and Wisconsin face nothing like this, but are nevertheless mightily angry, and, to my eye, embarrassingly self-righteous. Their behavior stems from a set of toxic attitudes that I call the union mentality. If you’ve had dealings with labor unions, perhaps you recognize the elements of the union mentality: reliance on confrontation and intimidation, resistance to innovation and suppression of initiative; collectivism, entitlement, self-centered intransience, pettiness. And God forbid an employee should actually adopt the business’s goals and objectives; no, the relationship must be adversarial. You understand me if you’ve ever heard a union veteran tell a new-hire, "Son, you need to slow down; this job is supposed to take all day." Or, "Son, this job calls for five electricians, not one working like five." You understand me if you’ve ever tried to book the Michigan Theater or Hill Auditorium (both union shops) for a musical event. The hall rental charge is reasonable -- about $2,000 for an afternoon and evening. But you may not do your own sound engineering and the union cost for it could add another $6,000, making it a money loser for all but the biggest acts. You understand me if you’ve ever encountered "work rules." When I enter a union plant to look into some manufacturing issue, often I am not permitted carry my own laptop onto the factory floor. It is a union member’s job to carry tools. Then, when the battery runs down -- and a wall plug is right there -- I am not permitted to plug it in myself. An electrician must be found to plug my laptop into a standard electrical outlet. You’ll understand me if you reflect on what unions do when, in tough times, they must choose between a negotiated pay raise and seeing their least-senior brethren retain employment. To my knowledge they always choose the pay raise. Solidarity has its limits, I guess. You understand me if you recognize that the concept of unionized professionals is an oxymoron. The union mentality is incompatible with operating as a professional. Actual professionals don’t work for wages. They bill clients or patients for services rendered. They practice their profession as a business and shoulder the risks inherent in that mode of earning a living. In a word, the union mentality is unbecoming. Why not face the world as an individual? Offer your knowledge and skills in trade with others. Rise or fall on your own merits. Find job security in being valuable to your employers. Make your employer’s goals and objectives your own. Make your bosses worry that they might lose you. Or start your own business. At least have enough self-respect to realize that if you need asinine work rules to keep your job, you don’t deserve your job. The union mentality looks out the window on a snowy morning and says: "That might be enough snow to serve as an excuse for not going to work." But this century will belong to the country that is home to the greatest entrepreneurial spirit, the place where most people say, "I hope I can get to work, even with all that snow." Let's be that place.
Will Warner lives in Lodi Township. He can be reached at warnerwm@aol.com.
Comments
Roger Roth
Sun, May 1, 2011 : 8:53 p.m.
One very important function of well-run unions is to provide much needed representation of it members to a government that is already overrun with representation by corporate lobbyists and other special interest groups. I do not understand a middle class workers aversion to the idea of a workers' union for this reason, alone. They're not perfect, but how else is a worker to get his/her voice heard at a volume approaching that of the Woofer representation of even smaller corporations?
jcj
Tue, Mar 29, 2011 : 7:22 p.m.
Just to follow up on tracyann's comment. There are plenty of slackers in any vocation. But how many of the union bashers here have ever: Worked in mud above the ankles for 8 hrs with a 10 min break in the morning and afternoon and 30min at lunch trying to get forms in to make a concrete pour. Worked outside in temps dropping to zero trying to hold a nail so you can drive it? Worked on scaffolding 5 stories high where one misstep ends your life? Driven 30 miles on a cloudy day only to have it start raining before you started working so you can drive back home with no pay for that day? Had co-workers die on the job while trying to do their job? Worked in the sun for 8 hrs when the temps were pushing 100 degrees? These are all things I have done working on a union job! Not having the person in the office start the coffee like they were suppose to or walking from your carport parking spot to the heated or air conditioned office pales in comparison!
SillyTree
Thu, Mar 31, 2011 : 3:48 p.m.
Just few more. Lived in a moving truck that only stopped for meals and to change drivers and didn't always stop for the meals? Had to hold their bladder or bowels until an exit came up where you could park a 70 foot long vehicle. Stayed away from home for 3 or more weeks only to be home for 3 days off? Put off sleep until you could find a place where you could park a 70 ft. long vehicle?
Will Warner
Wed, Mar 30, 2011 : 1:07 a.m.
@BB --- "@jcj, The people doing hard physical labor like you describe deserve to be compensated. ...I can respect the hard work you have done." Basic Bob speaks for me too, jcj.
jcj
Wed, Mar 30, 2011 : 12:46 a.m.
Basic Bob I have basically wanted to let people know that to just say union workers are greedy or lazy is not right. Unions are not all the same. I believe that if everyone got paid only for hours they were on the job there would be much better productivity. In 30 years of steady work I missed about 3 days because I was sick. I missed some time with broken bones and a little time with a back problem. But if I was able I worked. I did not take off just because I would get paid anyway since I would not be. I realize that there are some unions where the inmates are running the asylum but generally speaking the construction industry is not that way.
Basic Bob
Tue, Mar 29, 2011 : 11:28 p.m.
@jcj, The people doing hard physical labor like you describe deserve to be compensated. But many unionized workers do not work in the conditions you describe, while some non-union employees are working right alongside you. I'm an engineer, so I stay on the ground while you're up on the scissor lift, but I can respect the hard work you have done. Unfortunately many people have no clue what real work is, but they want to paid for 1400 hours of work like they work 2800 hours a year.
Tom Wieder
Tue, Mar 29, 2011 : 7:07 p.m.
@Roadman at 11:38 AM on March 29, 2011 "Tom, your support of labor unions represent a bias because you rake in a lot of dough representing unionized workers as an attorney." As usual, Roadman, you assert things you know nothing about, such as how I make (or made) my money. I'm retired now, so I don't "rake in" anything from representing unionized workers, or anyone else. If you are thinking of my substitute teacher class action case, you're wrong there. The Ann Arbor substitutes had no union. In my entire legal career I represented unionized workers in.....drum roll....ONE grievance case.
Roadman
Wed, Mar 30, 2011 : 1:08 a.m.
Tom, I did not see you at the last County Commission meeting giving your incisive public commentary regarding unreimbursed per diems and expenses not properly payable. Conan and Barbara still have not paid. Look forward to seeing you on April 6th, hopefully. At least you did not work at Miller Canfield representing employer interests and turning around as a Democratic City Council member and portray yourself as a friend of unions as a certain former Dmocratic Third Ward City Council member used to.
tracyann
Tue, Mar 29, 2011 : 6:57 p.m.
As a former union member and factory worker I have seen the slacker employees and those whose favorite line was "It's not my job." And of course every one has seen the local news hidden cams of union members drinking while on break (martini lunch?) Yes, we see these and form our opinions, however, no ever filmed me or any of my former co-workers on a hidden cam working hard and doing our jobs. How about in the summertime when temps in the factory reach into the 100's, yet I was still slinging parts because I was not one of those slackers? Well, that stuff doesn't make the 6 o'clock news, does it? Unions are not perfect, but I wouldn't have what I have now if not for the union.
tracyann
Wed, Mar 30, 2011 : 12:44 p.m.
@EyeHeartA2 - yes that's what I was paid to do and I took pride in my job, but you're reading way more into my comment than intended. The point I was trying to make is everyone always focuses on the proverbial bad apples in the bunch and that gets generalized to all union members. As for the drinking: no one should be drinking on the job, but why is it deemed appropriate as long as you're schmoozing a client? Why are there no hidden cams on CEOs sharing drinks with a prospective client then going back to the office? Or is that too black and white?
EyeHeartA2
Tue, Mar 29, 2011 : 10:32 p.m.
Maybe because that was what you were getting paid to do? Are you suggesting it is news if a union employee does their job?
jcj
Tue, Mar 29, 2011 : 3:41 p.m.
I have learned to save my remarks for a few hours so I can see what was so objectionable. WOW! a big word from someone that did not go to college!
jcj
Tue, Mar 29, 2011 : 3:39 p.m.
Must be the moderators don't mind someone putting down uneducated persons but take offense to me not putting all "college educated persons" in a good light. @Polecat "I have yet to have a college educated person on the other side in a contract negotiation." Really? Do you know how many "college educated persons" I have to deal with at McDonalds, or anyone of a number of shops at Briarwood? How many "college educated persons" have run their business into the ground with no help from the lowly unions? It does not matter if you are "college educated " or not neither one assures someone is capable of fair negotiations ! You make it sound like those uneducated persons from the unions usually get the best of you, otherwise you would have nothing to complain about if you were able to out smart them.
Jim Knight
Tue, Mar 29, 2011 : 2:38 p.m.
A comment that contained a personal attack was removed.
grye
Tue, Mar 29, 2011 : 1:57 p.m.
I wouldn't lump the teacher's union into the same group of UAW members I have dealt with in the past. Although the teacher's union needs to come to present day and make changes in benefits and weeding out poor teachers (or provide training to improve a poor teacher to ensure the students receive a better education). Too often I have personally witnessed union members file grievances for miniscual and stupid events that waste time and money for the employee and the employer. This needs to stop if we are to be successful. In addition, Michigan needs to be an open shop State. There is no reason anyone should be forced to be union member. This is blackmail in its most purest form.
15crown00
Tue, Mar 29, 2011 : 5:27 a.m.
unions payed the bills for a lot of people for a very long time.it's hard to imagine life TOTALLY without them. employees slack off but employers let it happen so who is at fault? unions are NO WHERE near as powerful as they use to be.
Polecat
Tue, Mar 29, 2011 : 4:15 a.m.
Great read. As someone that must negotiate against unions, I can say the author is absolutrly correct. People running these unions have no idea what it takes to run a business in this global economy we must work in. I have yet to have a college educated person on the other side in a contract negotiation. They are still living in the 60's.
mun
Tue, Mar 29, 2011 : 12:32 a.m.
" Why not face the world as an individual?" Why don't you ask that of Wall Street and other corporations who lobby for taxpayer subsidies?
David Paris
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 7:41 p.m.
Mr Warner, you live in a fantasy world. Unions came into being because they were needed. And they were needed because business management profits by abusing/ignoring/exploiting labor. Just like management, you do not appreciate a persons efforts, union, nor nonunion. You are a person who feels that labor, any labor is an obstacle that needs to be overcome, a hinderance on a business. You are a contributor to the downward spiral. If you have your way, unions will be abolished, and third world working condition will be the norm, for everyone. All workers should be terrified of your world, because without unions, we will all be skewered.
Lisa
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 11:08 p.m.
Monasteries still exist. Slavery still exists. Wars still happen. Secretaries, operators and cashiers still have jobs. Just because thing change does not mean that they are obsolete.
SillyTree
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 10:39 p.m.
It's not just union jobs that are in trouble. Non union workers owe their standard of living to unions as much as union workers do. I've worked in places that feared unions. That fear gave leverage to the non union worker. Individuals cannot adequately negotiate a contract with a large corporation. It is because they do not have to pay you what you are worth. Instead that won't pay you anything unless you take what they give. The corporation has the upper hand because they can hold out longer. Corporations do not need to eat; people do. That is the bottom line. They can go longer without production than you can go without food. We are returning to the 1880's and that wasn't pretty.
Basic Bob
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 9:35 p.m.
"Unions came into being because they were needed." Monasteries are no longer needed to make copies of books. Large numbers of slaves are no longer needed to pick cotton. Huge invasion forces are no longer needed to destroy foreign capitals. Secretaries are no longer needed to type memos. Operators are no longer needed to route calls through switchboards. Cashiers are no longer needed to dispense cash. All these people have been replaced by technology, and I can imagine the dread they felt as their jobs became obsolete. Some union jobs will be eliminated, not because of exploiting or abuse, but simply because they are no longer required. Union "leadership" that tries to be an obstacle or hindrance to their business partners will simply accelerate the innovations that make their members obsolete.
zip the cat
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 4:37 p.m.
I'll bet this article set a record for responses
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 9:53 p.m.
Not even close. More than 300 for the article on the MEA's threat to strike. Good Night and Good Luck
Ace Ventura
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 3:45 p.m.
@longtimeobserver Companies would not find themselves in court or arbitration if their managers were not constantly trying to circumvent the contract they agreed to. Yes businessmen make all kinds of contracts and deals and then try to weasel around them. That is why companies are constantly being sued by non "union mentality" people like the government for cheating on their taxes, suppliers for not paying their bills, shareholders for the self serving back room deals they make, for cutting corners and making shoddy products and unsafe working environments. Yet the union haters continue to ignore facts and promote their own selfish agenda. You stated "It is not the same with the majority of union workers, many of whom would not be union members if they had a choice." Well this is really a silly statement based on no facts what so ever.
longtimeobserver
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 2:50 p.m.
I found Mr. Warner's "union mentality" interesting. I thought some was right on and some off the mark. I saw no overt expression of hate. I also read the comments. The predominance of those expressing unqualified support for the union view was surprising but that so many of them accused Warner of spewing hate was not. That is a part of the mentality of union leaders I like to think I have some insight re the mental attitudes popular among union leaders in that I managed union relations for a company which had 24 bargaining units in their it's plants. Over twelve years negotiating contracts, resolving grievances, arbitrating disputes, solving work stoppages and arguing in courts I have experienced thousands of hours of serious time with union members, union local, regional and national representatives and union attorneys. I know how they think And Mr. Warner is not far off the mark It is not the same with the majority of union workers, many of whom would not be union members if they had a choice. Absent the intimidation present to some degree in most, if not all, union environments, most employees are pretty much the same; anxious to come to work everyday, on time, ready to give alll they got to their job.
David Paris
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 7:58 p.m.
And would you describe your former department and management team as "Saintly", or merely "Heroic"? Because the implication is that the employer could do no wrong. Did they always pay overtime that was due? Never intimidated anyone out of filing for workmens comp, or taking a work related sick day? Did they always promote the best worker, regardless of sex, race, or relation to the boss? I'm sure everyone was paid fairly well, prior to union organization? Workers were only terminated because of their own doing, Im sure, never because of an unscrupulous boss? Heck, "unscrupulous boss" is probably an oxymoron ,anyways, right? Who ever heard of a boss acting unethical, that's what unions do, lol!
johnnya2
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 2:44 p.m.
If the fall of GM and Chrysler were the fault of the unions, I suppose the failure of Chase, BOA, Borders, Circuit City, Linens and Things, AGI, Morgan Stanley, Lehman Brothers, Countrywide, KMART, WAMU, WorldCom, Enron, CIT Group, and Conseco wre all attributed to NOT having unions. These were all non-union places of business. Anybodyt who thinks the unions led to the bankruptcy of GM and Chrysler knows nothing about the financial situation. Both could have survived without BK if there had been credit available. Ford had refinanced EVERYTHING prior to the collapse of the economy. GM could have done so as well, but there was no credit available. Therefore the US Government LENT them the money. By the way, Canadian workers build many of the cars for the Big Three. There compensation is equal to UAW members. The main difference, NATIONAL HEALTH CARE.
Judy
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 2:41 p.m.
Much of what is in Will Warner's "opinion" piece is patently false. I worked with Union shops and never was I ever treated in the manner that he describes. I was allowed to carry all of my equipment and use it . I was always treated well and with respect, often getting help from the workers. J.Harris
Klayton
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 12:47 p.m.
I applaud Will...someone needs to say this! I am a teacher and I think Unions are really backwards. I HATE that I pay over 700 dollars every year to the Union (because I have to). I have begged to not be in the Union (closed shop where I am) and to negotiate my own contract (like in the real business world of professionals). I am told "no, the Union does this for you." But all the Union does is think about the teachers on the high end of the pay scale and their retirement. My Union has an "us versus them" mentality that is very wrong in my opinion. They act like the administration is the evil enemy. The Union does not care about the students, if they did they would negotiate for smaller class sizes, more intervention help for teachers, remove the poor and ineffective teachers, more opportunities for PD for teachers around special education, technology integration, innovative teaching. My Union has done nothing for me except to keep my salary down, protect the art teacher who had an affair with an underage student, protect the social studies teacher that gives a study hall about 3 days a week so he can read his newspaper, protect the math teacher who is inappropriate with students. The administration tries to remove these teachers and the Union flies in with their lawyers to protect these teachers. I am embarrassed to be part of this Union and would welcome a place where I negotiate my own contract, my salary is based on merit and evaluation and not on years in. This is the 2nd school where I have been forced to join the Union. In my previous school (in another state) I did not have to join the Union (so I did not) but I still had to pay the dues (whyyyy???). I negotiated my own contract and it was BETTER than what I would have received on the Union scale. I have experienced that if you do an excellent job you can negotiate a very good contract and the parents will push for it too!
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 9:52 p.m.
OK, I'll say it nicely. There are plenty of non-union schools in the area. Quit complaining and go find a job in one of them. You chose to work in a closed shop. You can choose not to. Good Night and Good Luck
Klayton
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 7:51 p.m.
@johnnya2 I hope you are not a teacher because teaching children to say nasty things to people they do not know is very sophomoric and ugly. I would hope that you would have a better way to prove your point (as I am not really sure what your point is???).
johnnya2
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 2:51 p.m.
There are plenty of schools that are non-union. You are incapable of finding a job with them, or you just mooch off the unions work. It is typical of your type. Go ahead and teach at Greenhills. Catholic Central or any other school that is non-union. YOU CANT.
Will Warner
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 9:51 a.m.
From above: "I am sincerely terrified that this individual is in a position to influence the thinking of young people." If I have any message for young people, it is in my concluding paragraphs. I urge people to find the entrepreneurial spirit within themselves. Quoting myself: "Face the world as an individual. Offer your knowledge and skills in trade with others. Rise or fall on your own merits. Find job security in being valuable to your employers. Make your employer's goals and objectives your own. Make your bosses worry that they might lose you. Or start your own business." As we see, the union mentality views these ideas as subversive, and that tells you all you need to know.
Will Warner
Tue, Mar 29, 2011 : 12:49 a.m.
Geez, Ghost. I worked in field service and manufacturing for GE for seven years after college. I did not have an adversarial relationship with my employer, I made their goals and objectives my own, and twice in that time I got two raises a year. Since the mid 80's I've been self-employed. What's your point?
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 9:49 p.m.
Gee. Depended on a REALLY big corporation. Do as I say, not as I do. Good Night and Good Luck
Will Warner
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 5:13 p.m.
jcj--- The job that got me into a lot a plants was Field Service Engineer for GE (PLCs and CNCs). You can hover over my icon to see the rest of my bio.
johnnya2
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 2:49 p.m.
Any person who quotes themselves is an egotistical idiot. You are an example of social Darwinsim gone amuck. There is NO person who can not be replaced for somebody cheaper. The WHOLE is greater than the sum of its parts. Based on your logic, collectivism is bad., So pay for your own police, pay for your own roads, pay for your own army. There is a reason it is called the UNITED States and not the INDIVIDUAL States.
jcj
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 11:18 a.m.
Still curious as to what you do/did for a living?
Lisa
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 10:45 a.m.
No, I view those ideas as shortsighted and naive. It is very clear that in this nation the rich have absolute control and they have decided that they wish to be richer... regardless of the expense. Of course, that money has to come from somewhere and its coming from the American worker... even professionals. Those in charge are not interested in helping those beneath us and ONLY by banding together do we have a voice.
Frank Grzybek
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 5:22 a.m.
This is class warfare, pure and simple. Unfortunately, a large portion of the middle class do not understand this. There are those of us who consider ourselves superior to others in the middle class. Unionized teachers are not the problem, but unionized factory workers are, or vice versa There are bad apples in every basket; what is done with them is the real issue. The large unions have become as political and as greedy as many of the large corporations. These unions must return to their roots to once again be a force for justice in this world. I do not consider teachers, or factory workers, or white collar workers to be the source of the current oppression. We in the middle class have allowed ourselves to be fooled by the self-serving wealthy of this country to fight among ourselves while the upper class enjoys the spectacle. We elect our so-called representatives based on popularity. In most instances name recognition or "face time" is a deciding factor as to who we vote into office. Trust me, those with deep pockets usually comp out on top. The lines between our two major political parties have become so muddled, there is very little difference between them. We get to elect those who the PARTIES dictate we choose. Do you call that a Democracy? We need to wake up and face our oppressors before it is too late. Perhaps this sounds like paranoia to you. Well, I'm willing to bet the political factions in the mid-east never thought that they would see the day their people would rise up against them to hold them accountable for what they have done to their countries. Their people just got smarter faster.
Basic Bob
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 2 p.m.
1. "Those with deep pockets usually come out on top." True, and there is nothing we can do about it. This just grandstanding only shifts power between rich Democrats and rich Republicans. 2. Non-working people pay little or nothing in taxes. 3. This leaves the middle class, who have no power in government or in the workplace to make any change. It is a zero-sum problem. Public sector workers and their unions are only transferring wealth from the remaining middle class workers. In our eyes, they have become the tool of the oppressors.
Ace Ventura
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 4:57 a.m.
@roadman I think you may be a bit confused. Unions did not force GM into bankruptcy. The collapse of the economy brought on but poor management and non union corporations that caused the recession did. I never see you anti union people complaining about AGI (not union) executives and employees who by the way made far more every year than your janitor ever will in his lifetime. By the way do some research no union janitor made 74k an hour. <a href="http://mediamatters.org/columns/200811250012" rel='nofollow'>http://mediamatters.org/columns/200811250012</a> AGI screwed up so bad that we taxpayers had to give them billions of dollars of corporate welfare. But that's ok there not union. Bank of America took billions in taxpayer welfare but that's ok cause their not union but that's ok. Oh gee what about CIty Bank the list goes on and on and on. Yet some people for what ever reason feel the need to vilify unions workers, teachers, and public employees.
picabia
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 4:07 a.m.
I fear that what is happening in Wisconsin and in Michigan is less about "being competitive" than it is about union-busting, pure and simple.
Roadman
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 3:11 a.m.
It was the United Auto Workers that destroyed General Motors with their $74,000.00 per year unskilled janitorial staff salaries they negotiated and other massively overpaid workers that drove the price of the GM vehicle to uncompetitive levels. I cannot say enough bad about unions in the last 20 years; they helped destroy the local economy.
John B.
Sat, Apr 2, 2011 : 12:51 a.m.
Roadman, you worked how many years at GM? None, you say? Not surprising. I worked there for about half of my career, as a 'white collar employee,' and I can tell you that management made virtually all of the mistakes (and many of them were multi-million or even multi-billion Dollar doozies). The list would fill an encyclopedia.
Roadman
Wed, Mar 30, 2011 : 12:55 a.m.
Tom, at least you did not work as a employer-side labor attorney for Miller Canfield and claim to be a friend of union workers as a certain Democrat from the Third Ward who used to sit on City Council once did. You have been performing a public service as well by speaking in front the County Commission about delinquent overpayments of not properly payable per diems, however I did not see you at the last County Commision meeting. Hope to hear you slamming Conan and Barbara next meeting on April 7th.
Tom Wieder
Tue, Mar 29, 2011 : 7:11 p.m.
"Tom, your support of labor unions represent a bias because you rake in a lot of dough representing unionized workers as an attorney." As usual, Roadman, you assert things you know nothing about, such as how I make (or made) my money. I'm retired now, so I don't "rake in" anything from representing unionized workers, or anyone else. If you are thinking of my substitute teacher class action case, you're wrong there. The Ann Arbor substitutes had no union. In my entire legal career I represented unionized workers in.....drum roll....ONE grievance case.
mun
Tue, Mar 29, 2011 : 12:36 a.m.
Yeah, it's UAW's fault that GM blew money on Saab and Hummer. It's UAW's fault that Ford blew money on Jaguar, Aston Martin, and Volvo.
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 9:47 p.m.
Gee, I thought management had a hand in that. They, after all, signed the contract. And if you want the real travesty, it was the job bank. Something that GM gave the UAW and the UAW hadn't even asked for. But, go ahead, blame that on the union, too. Fairy tales are always much more comfortable than facts. Good Night and Good Luck
limmy
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 1:52 a.m.
I have had kids in traditional public school, private school, and years of charter school. I must say that the only time I have encountered a teacher that I believed should be fired was in a non union charter school. The teacher is still there. They have their problems, too. it has more to do with supervision than with union or non union. By the way, if you want to encounter some non union loafs, spend a few days in various departments at the U of M. There are plenty of them there.
Bob Krzewinski
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 1:06 a.m.
If my union did not exist, the Air Line Pilots Association, airline flying would be hardly as safe as it is right now. And yes, the pilots in ALPA are a really selfish bunch. They place their safety, and the passengers they are responsible for, over the profit motives that some individuals in the airline industry bow down to as their god.
sbbuilder
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 3:19 a.m.
The ALPA sure helped Eastern, and PanAm, and TWA, and Braniff and... and all along I thought it was the provenance of the FAA to make sure safety was adhered to. You know, the 'you bet your job' twice a year. Please cite some examples where if it weren't for the ALPA, airlilne travel wouldn't be as safe.
Joe Hood
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 12:54 a.m.
What a well written piece and from the comments, there is no reply.
Jen Eyer
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 12:37 a.m.
Several comments on this thread have been restored.
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 1:17 a.m.
Thanks, Jen! Good Night and Good Luck
talker
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 11:55 p.m.
Why was that chosen as the guest column this week? As "Cash" wrote, it's full of opinions, without evidence. Were the scenarios imagined or experienced in one out of 100 situations? Was the writer paid in money or expectations for an article that shamelessly defames the hard work of those who pave and plow our streets, fight our fires, and swab hospital floors? Yes, most workers aren't required to work 12 hours on the job as workers did in the early 1900's. But (1) without unions workers are likely to lose many hard fought for working conditions and (2) with stagnant and reduced wages, many workers have to work 12 hours a day between two jobs in order to have the same, simple living conditions they had 10 years ago. Twelve hour days aren't farfetched for many without union benefits. We need to rebuild unions and ask those who control most of the wealth in this country to pay their fair share of taxes and treat their work site and domestic employees better.
Dr. Rockso
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 11:04 p.m.
@genetracy I also worked at the Ford Ypsi plant from 1977-1979 on the strut line and the bumper shock line. I don't remember the fantasy account you describe of drunks and people sleeping. It was an extremely hot and noisy environment. I was in the union and worked my butt of 10-12 hours a day 6 days a week as did pretty much the rest of the people I worked with. Union people work just as hard as anyone else. There are plenty of bad workers and goof offs that are not in unions. I have found that usually the people that complain about unions pretty much complain about everything. If its not the unions its someones racial make up or religion or gender identity almost anything else they blame for their woes. Yes some people like to complain for the sake of complaining.
julieswhimsies
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 10:39 p.m.
@Cash. Thanks for the excellent posts. I completely agree. Odd article.
genetracy
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 10:35 p.m.
How may people here who are pro-union have actually worked in a union shop? You know, got you hands dirty in a non-airconditioned building with the decibal level at 90? Just as I expected. Not many. I am a former auto worker who quit on my own accord because of union rules and what union employees could get away with. Show up drunk? Go sleep it off in the employees lounge. Feel like taking as nap? Go back to the parts crib. Want to go om medical leave? Dream up a phony medical condition and take a year off. I could go on, but one thing I noticed about union shops, is the people who do the work, get the work. If you don't feel like working, then you are taken care of. By the way, before accusing me of lying, this was the Ypsi Ford palnt, which closed down for some odd reason.
sbbuilder
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 1:38 a.m.
Cash C'mon, your placing the burden at the feet of management is getting old. The big three, for example, quiverred and shaked whenever a strike was held over their heads. In short, the unions became too powerful for their own good. The union representing the workers at Fingerle were totally intransigent. Only when it was explained in great detail to the workers that they (the Fingerle's) would close the doors for good, did they vote the union out. This is what it is coming to. Union stubborness will in the end be their undoing.
Cash
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 11:03 p.m.
Management allowed it? Then the management should have been replaced...and they probably were. Ford seems to be a great place to be nowadays.
jcj
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 9:56 p.m.
What nobody is going to dispute this? Strange with so many wise ones here!
Nate
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 9:21 p.m.
I help lead a student organization on campus. We desired to bring in a performer that would require a specific size venue and setup. The Power Center and Michigan Theater were our only options. Like Mr. Waner says, the facility fee was expensive but reasonable for the size venue. Just as he says, the union required sound techs would have cost us another $6000. The performer could have done the act with his own equipment and with help from our students for no additional cost beyond his base cost. But, instead of their being flexibility to use our own labor, we had to cancel the booking. So, in the end we did not get to bring in a great event for the campus community and the venues lost out on our income. It was the union requirements and the union requirements alone that killed our event at no benefit to themselves or the venue they work for. A little flexibility would be nice, but that's not possible with union rules.
Marshall Applewhite
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 1:39 a.m.
@Lisa Starrfield I've never seen so many non sequiturs by a single person in one thread before. I understand you are trying to defend your teachers union, but after a certain point, don't you think you're doing more harm than good?
Lisa Starrfield
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 12:40 a.m.
It sounds like that was part of the cost of using that venue but that they billed it separately.
Nate
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 11 p.m.
It would have been the performer's sound equipment. Even then they required us to use their union tech labor with the performer's equipment. Yes, I can see a reasonable fee to cover potential damage, or even some sort of deposit, but this was purely an extravagant cost connected solely to union labor costs. I would not have even minded if we had to use the union labor for the hours the event was being held, but there were minimum hours required and a minimum number of union employees that had to be "hired" even though we would have only needed a bare minimum, if at all.
Lisa Starrfield
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 10:15 p.m.
Who would have been responsible if the performer had broken the equipment? Who would have fixed things if the equipment malfunctioned? Lighting and sound systems are expensive to maintain and repair. Perhaps this simple rule was put in place because of prior accidents.
jcj
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 9:16 p.m.
I should have prefaced my remarks with All unions are not created equal so you can not lump all unions in the same category!
jcj
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 9:14 p.m.
Let me try this again.I did not call anyone a name. If you are a union carpenter that works for a private company, that company has to make money. If you are a union carpenter but not a very good one or maybe you are just lazy. You would not have a job very long working for a private contractor! Further, If you are a union carpenter that works for a private company and you don't make it to work one day you do NOT get paid for that day. If you are a union carpenter that works for the U of M and are paid directly by the U of M with taxpayer dollars. The likely hood of you getting fired or "let go" is not very high. Further, If you are a union carpenter that works for the U of M and are paid directly by the U of M with taxpayer dollars and you don't make it to work one day you WILL get paid for that day. What is the difference in the two? Yes that's right one is working for a company that has to make money or they go out of business. The other is working for a public business that does not have to make money. Please let me know if there is anyone that does not believe this or understand this. I am speaking to this scenario and this scenario only! This is essentially what I said in the previous post. If this is censored then I don't know how much nicer I can say it.
jcj
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 11:11 p.m.
Lisa In the construction trade with private companies the tradesmen are paid an hourly wage only for the time they are on the job. My only point is that so many people think that if you are union you have all these benefits. And while there are many benefits of working in the trades while a member of the union. Job security is not one of them if you work for a private company. So it is not fair to paint all unions with the same brush. But if you work for a public entity like the city , county, or state it is much easier to keep your job. Now they do generally get less money on their check.
Lisa Starrfield
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 10:13 p.m.
If you work for a company that provides PTO or sick days, then yes, you get to stay home so many days when you or your family are sick and your pay is not interrupted. However, your salary for the year does not include pay for those sick days. This is normal. Most people who work for a salary and many hourly workers get this. However, contractors may not (white collar contractors often do though). It's a real shame that so many companies have moved to having contractors instead of employees. The seem to believe that labor is interchangeable and that any carpenter can sling a hammer, no special skills are needed. Shame
Bill Wilson
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 8:42 p.m.
My, but we all seem to have very short, convenient memories. It was just last month when a local kindergarten teacher made the following claim: ------------- "Posted: Jan 30, 2011 at 7:01 AM [Jan 30, 2011] This past week, I was reading online about the proposed charter high school opening near my district. Of course, following the article the community is allowed to comment. While there were a few pro public school comments, the rest were pointing their fingers at the "greedy teachers," who do nothing but drink coffee and hide behind the union." ------------ Most of the very same people here who are disparaging Mr. Warner found the time to chime in and praise this author, and told her how caring she was, and what a great job she was doing... etc... Etc. I was the only person who took the time to research her claims, and guess what: I couldn't find even a single instance of corroboration. Not even one. So, I asked her to provide links. Guess what... I'm still waiting. Not a single one of you bothered to question her (sic) claims. Maybe, instead of dismissing Mr. Warner's claims simply because they do not fit your political tunnel vision, you should take the time to see if there's any truth in his claims. I personally have witnessed the same type of behavior Mr. Warner cites many, many times.
actionjackson
Tue, Mar 29, 2011 : 2:21 a.m.
Well Bill let's see some backup to even one of these many, many, times. Just because you say it's so doesn't mean a thing. State a time, place, person, witness to these flagrant fabrications.
Lisa Starrfield
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 10:25 p.m.
I've taught in union and non-union schools. I've seen more teachers removed under my current principal (in a union district) than I saw in non-union schools. I will also tell you it is MUCH harder to get a job in AAPS than it was in my non-union school district. The interview process was much harder; AAPS tends to favor known quantities... long term subs who've done good work or teachers who did their student teaching in the district. If you hire smart, it isn't as much of an issue.
Cash
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 9:08 p.m.
In 67 years of like I have experienced a union and non union working environment. His claims are bogus.
Will Warner
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 6:59 p.m.
My paragraph on professionals and unionism has become a bit of a distraction. Strictly speaking, the professions – e.g., medicine, law, accounting, engineering – are practiced as businesses, usually as partnerships. But that is not the point I wanted to make. It is this: a professional would not submit to a system of last-hired / first-fired.
Lisa Starrfield
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 9:46 p.m.
Too many engineers are laid off between 40 and 50 because they can be replaced cheaply. They often can't find another job. That's a shame because a lot of knowledge and experience is lost. Perhaps they need a union.
Basic Bob
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 9:01 p.m.
Jonny, Seniority is virtually obsolete in the private sector. It has been replaced by assessment of value by management. Some value is retained knowledge, some is in familiarity, most is in intangibles such as ability to work with people and do one's job despite obstacles.
bs
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 7:57 p.m.
Warner, the "distraction" here is your lack of facts, information, or logic, not to mention the condescending manner in which you refer to those not in the "professions" (as well as your inability or unwillingness to consider any honorable job a "profession"). You've really ignored most of the comments here, you've not answered most of the questions posed to you. In all honesty, you come across as a bit of an elitist. Could you back up the statements you make with research, facts, statistics? Would you also be willing to enlighten us as to where/how you obtained your knowledge of communities, "unionism" (as you put it), employment practices, and so forth? In other words WHY should people place weight on your thoughts?
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 7:49 p.m.
"It is this: a professional would not submit to a system of last-hired / first-fired." And it remains an absurd point. Nothing in the vast literature of professionalism suggests this is an element of a profession. Indeed, it is a hair away from an ad hominem attack in its effort to label union members as "unprofessional". We understood what you meant. Good Night and Good Luck
Jonny Spirit
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 7:49 p.m.
It's called Seniority, even non union companies use this.
elduderino
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 6:41 p.m.
Tony Dearing, It is increasingly obvious that you must immediately find a member of the generally progressive community to filter what is published/posted on this site. Apparently, people who are not members of the generally progressive community are not intelligent enough to make up their own minds on various issues. Thank you. I now must go off to attend a book burning.
Marshall Applewhite
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 1:33 a.m.
This is a great response. Definitely gave me a chuckle.
bs
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 6:39 p.m.
I have to agree with Tom W about this. AA.com allowing this kind of article under the guise of GUEST COLUMN gives it credibility it just shouldn't have. I am sincerely terrified that this individual is in a position to influence the thinking of young people.
Tom Wieder
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 6:17 p.m.
To Tony Dearing (part 2) Passages like this stick out: "You understand me if you recognize that the concept of unionized professionals is an oxymoron. The union mentality is incompatible with operating as a professional. Actual professionals don't work for wages. They bill clients or patients for services rendered. They practice their profession as a business and shoulder the risks inherent in that mode of earning a living." Really? Staff doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc. who work on salary aren't professionals? Do you really want to be printing assertions that the salaried City Attorney, County Public Health physician or City Engineer isn't a professional? This is far-right-wing garbage. Warner is certainly entitled to believe and say it, but he is not entitled to have you publish it. It doesn't advance public discourse; it poisons it. You should not have run it.
Roadman
Tue, Mar 29, 2011 : 3:38 p.m.
Tom, your support of labor unions represent a bias because you rake in a lot of dough representing unionized workers as an attorney. If you would have represented big business you would be singing their praises and supporting Rick Snyder.
Jen Eyer
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 12:31 a.m.
Part 1 was removed due to an offensive, off-topic analogy.
Lisa Starrfield
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 9:45 p.m.
Bob, Teachers can be and are sued. That's one of the benefits of union membership... malpractice insurance.
Basic Bob
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 8:57 p.m.
This is one view of a professional, and a rather common one. It is rather extreme, but in my opinion valid. To say that a truck driver is "professional" because he has his own truck, a license, and is paid by the mile is another extreme. Many professionals are business owners, while some are salaried workers. One test is professional liability. The city can be sued due to an error by the city engineer. Can a teacher or his/her employer be sued because of a failure to educate a student? No.
Cash
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 6:58 p.m.
Tom Wieder, Whee is part 1? And please do not delete my question again! It is an honest question. I want to read the first part of this post as this is a continuation. I can't find it!
Mike Ball
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 6:13 p.m.
Wow, what a profoundly ignorant rant. First off, what reasonable person could believe that corporations that are willing to completely destroy our water supply and our atmosphere in the name of a few percentage point of profit, and who would happily sacrifice the lives of miners to pocket the cost of a few items of safety equipment, would not also be willing to exploit child labor and reinstate the "Company Store" if given the chance. And your idea of "competitive" teachers seems to be ones who will work for minimum wage. Oh, wait, if you can eliminate the unions, you are just a couple of Koch Brothers-financed power plays away from doing away with the minimum wage as well. Mr. Warner, you are clearly a dedicated foot soldier of the right wing, firmly rooted in your Fact Free Zone.
Rabbit1
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 5:48 p.m.
This is a really antiquated view of unions. Unions balance power relationships in the market for labor. The power of unions and management would be well balanced if unions decided the wages of administrators as they do of union members. Now administrators decide their own pay, and this is where much of the abuse lies. How do we get rid of incompetent, inhumane and, wasteful administrators? Union featherbedding is just an imatation of what many managers do for themselves. We need some true reciprocity in union-management contracts.
Alan Benard
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 4:20 p.m.
The cutting edge of management sciences calls for collaborative planning and product/project development. Organized labor can partner with management effectively, and this is the most productive model for business. There are many existing real-world examples in Michigan today, particularly in the automotive sector. Anyone who would do away with unions categorically ignores these facts and is an ideologue. Libertarianism is selfishness gussied up as a philosophy. THAT is unbecoming.
elduderino
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 6:04 p.m.
Alan, What real-world example in the automotive sector are you referring to as an effective partnership? With 34 years of experience at a major automotive OEM, I'm sure you're not referring to the UAW.
elduderino
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 4:17 p.m.
The Union Mentality --- "When school children start paying union dues, that 's when I'll start representing the interests of school children." Albert Shanker, President of the American Federation of Teachers from 1974 to 1997 That about sums it up.
Lisa
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 10:48 a.m.
You're right, I did. Children don't pay the dues; I and my colleagues do. We care about the quality of education in our school, the quality of our programs but we also respect ourselves enough to stand up for ourselves.
Marshall Applewhite
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 1:30 a.m.
@ Lisa Starrfield You entirely missed the point there.
Lisa Starrfield
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 9:41 p.m.
The schools don't pay union dues. The teachers do. No teacher is forced to join the union; I didn't my first year in the district and did not have to pay union dues.
stunhsif
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 3:18 p.m.
I am sad to say that my experience working with union workers is virtually identical to yours. I have worked for 3 union trucking companies that were put out to pasture ( Transcon Lines--ANRadvance Transportation and Preston Motor Lines) because the unions didn't want to make reasonable concessions when they had the chance. Transcon died in 1984, ANRadvance and Preston in 1999. Now YRC Corp ( the combination of Yellow,Roadway and USF Holland, USF Reddaway and NewPenn) is just about done. Their revenues have dropped from 9 billion to 4 billion in the past three years. Their high cost union structure has cost them dearly since the recession hit and they are in a death spiral. Our industry will benefit immensely when they finally hit ground. The stock once traded in the high 40's, right now it is at $1.96.
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 10:48 p.m.
"Introspection is sure needed by some!" Indeed!! Could not agree more!! Especially by people who write ""You are wrong! end of discussion period!" Good Night and Good Luck
jcj
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 8:52 p.m.
Introspection is sure needed by some!
braggslaw
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 4:34 p.m.
After My experiences with unions whenever I took a new job I would investigate to see if they had a union workforce It influences long term liabilities stock price etc
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 4:04 p.m.
If I had worked for three companies that went under, I think I might . . . Naaaah. Never mind. That would take some introspection. Good Night and Good Luck
Mike Martin
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 3:10 p.m.
Wow, well said Will. The unions are 1920's anachronism. The Chinese love them because they just drive more business their way. They crippled the auto companies and are killing state governments. They just don't seem to get it. It doesn't work financially in a global economy. I doubt the recent protests in Wisconsin and Michigan will have any lasting effect either. They will run out of steam after a couple of weekends of "solidarity" (in name only they seem to feel little solidarity with citizens of Michigan as a whole). Then, hopefully the governor will be able to implement policies to help turn the state around. Anyone miss the fact the we were the ONLY state to lose population in the last ten years? It's a huge wake up call that the economy needs to be rebuilt on many levels - starting with the the unions.
Lisa Starrfield
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 9:40 p.m.
The auto industry just gave out bigtime bonuses. Don't seem crippled to me.
jcj
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 3:06 p.m.
I have been a union member for over forty years. The difference between the union that sbbuilder describes and the union I belong to is this. There is a difference between a union job where the company has to make a profit ( which is the type of job I had) and sbbuilder's job. I guarantee you that while there were loofers in my union. THEY usually were at the union hall looking for work and not working. Because while public union workers like city, county, state , feds, seldom if ever loose their job. In the construction industry I as a union member and a supervisor have let go numerous "workers" that did not perform. And another difference with my job as opposed to public union workers is this! I NEVER got paid for a day I was not on the job!
jcj
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 4:12 p.m.
I am not sure you would get my point if It was written across the sky! You keep bringing up teachers I never mentioned teachers! Once more my point is this! Someone working for the city that belongs to a union is almost guaranteed a job if the economy is good no matter if they do their job well or not! Someone that belongs to a union working for a private general contractor will not keep his job if he does not perform! And what don't you understand about this?
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 11:50 a.m.
"I am sure you will correct me if I am wrong but I can't think of a single public sector workplace that has to make money. Therefore if you belong to a public sector union it is harder to loose you job than a union in the construction industry." Yes, people who belong to public sector unions seldom lose their job to "downsizing" because, no matter the state of the economy, the job they do is still there. Police and fire protection is still necessary. Children still need to be taught. One guesses that as Detroit's population has shrunk over the past decade, it has employed fewer of all of the above. And your point is . . . . ? Good Night and Good Luck
jcj
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 11:34 a.m.
ERMG I never disputed what you said about the UAW. And I thought I made it clear that I was talking about the construction industry not any other industry. I know what I said about the construction industry is also right. "I don't know of any public sector union members who get paid for going to the union hall." I never said ANYBODY got paid forgoing to the union hall.I said in the construction industry if you don't do your job you will be at the union hall looking for another job! "The fact of the matter is that is is impossible to make generalization about public sector unions vs. those in the private sector, just as it is impossible to make generalizations about unionized workers vs. those who are not." This is where we agree. While we can point out differences and weaknesses in unions. It is wrong to assume if its a union its bad. I am sure you will correct me if I am wrong but I can't think of a single public sector workplace that has to make money. Therefore if you belong to a public sector union it is harder to loose you job than a union in the construction industry.
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 10:46 p.m.
"You are wrong! end of discussion period!" Because you say so? I know the examples I cited are correct. Do you dispute that the auto companies had job banks that paid people not to work? Do you dispute that the only way many public sector workers get paid to stay home is if they are sick? But they are my examples. There, likely, are examples what I said is not correct. Hence, my judgement about blanket statements. But way to keep an open mind. Good Night and Good Luck
Lisa Starrfield
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 9:39 p.m.
JCJ, Most salaried workers get paid time off in the form of vacation or sick days or both. It is the norm. Those days are actually typically not included in the salary. So for a worker who gets 2 weeks of vacation and 10 sick days, instead of their salary being for 52 weeks, it is for 48 weeks but spread out over 52. It is no different for teachers.
jcj
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 8:28 p.m.
ERMG Obviously you do not understand what I am saying OR you are not honest enough to admit it! You are WRONG! What is it you don't believe. Do you not believe: I NEVER got paid for a day I was not on the job! I never said anything about the UAW! What I said was that the loafers in MY union were at the union hall looking for jobs because the companies ie: general contractors, or sub-contractors had to make money they were not funded with tax dollars. Obviously you fit into the category of someone that has never had experience in the field I am referring to!
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 7:44 p.m.
jcj: I understood EXACTLY what you said. And you are wrong. Private sector union members in the UAW--thousands of them--got paid for going to the union hall through the job bank programs. They got paid VERY well for doing nothing! And the only public sector employees I know about who get paid for staying home are those who use sick time--a fairly typical phenomenon in private sector unions. So your experience is different? Fine. Hence my statement that one cannot make broad-brush statements about public v. private sector or about union v. non-union. Good Night and Good Luck
jcj
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 5:49 p.m.
ERMG What I said was I NEVER got paid for a day I was not on the job! Public sector employees DO get paid for staying home. I was a union member in the construction industry And I don't care if you were union. If you did not do your job you were LOOKING for another one! Period!
Cash
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 4:43 p.m.
Well some union workers get paid for days off, and some non-union salaried workers get paid, work or not. So?
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 3:59 p.m.
jcj: I don't know of any public sector union members who get paid for going to the union hall. I do know of thousands of UAW members who received 90% for doing exactly that. It was called the "job bank". The fact of the matter is that is is impossible to make generalization about public sector unions vs. those in the private sector, just as it is impossible to make generalizations about unionized workers vs. those who are not. Good Night and Good Luck
jcj
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 3:07 p.m.
They were actually loafers!
David Cahill
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 2:55 p.m.
Warner's views were much more common in the nineteenth century, when organizing a union was often considered illegal. I wonder how Warner feels about the right to join unions. Does he support repeal of the Wagner Act?
actionjackson
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 2:53 p.m.
Wake up Will. Your narrow mindedness is showing. Take off the blinders and look around. Sounds like you chose the wrong profession and you are just now waking up to the fact that you should have been more organized.
Huron74
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 2:42 p.m.
I was a union member for four years. All they did was take my money. Observations are spot on.
zip the cat
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 2:09 p.m.
The whole article is pure rubbish,a bunch of lies and zero facts, A real pipe dream Talk about playing favorites. It goes way past AA dot com's conversion guide lines. Lets play fair,if your going to allow this whitch hunt and personel attack, do it for everyone. Its pretty clear will has never worked for a hard nosed employer who tramples on your every day rights. Come down from your glass house and see what its like to do a honest days work.
willger
Thu, Mar 31, 2011 : 8:43 p.m.
zip the cat, you are showing your "union mentality"
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 11:52 p.m.
"More ridiculous angry rhetoric" Pot, meet kettle. Good Night and Good Luck
stunhsif
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 3:08 p.m.
"Come down from your glass house and see what its like to do a honest days work." Wow "zip the cat". How do you know Wil lives in a glass house and that he does "dishonest work" ? More ridiculous angry rhetoric, that seems to be all you get from union supporters !
jcj
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 1:57 p.m.
Mr Warner While unions do not need to play the same roll they did 60-70 years ago. And I believe they have the "can't see the forest for the trees" mentality to some extent. But to lay everything at the feet of the unions is a cop out and diversionary tactic. This comment: "it is in the third-world where it might still find seriously unsafe and unhealthy working conditions, 12-hour work days, six-day work weeks" shows that you are not speaking from experience. These things do exist today in this country. I did not read in your piece what exactly you have done to "earn" a living! And would you chastise the screen actors guild, International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees, Writers Guild of America, American Federation of Actors or any other union representing members of the entertainment industry?
sbbuilder
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 1:44 p.m.
I have been a member of two unions, both at the U. Some anecdotal comments: Every single painter (yes, I was a member of that union for two years) I worked with did scab work. This was considered normal. They would engage in bragging contests to see who made the most money the night before, or over the weekend. The drill was that they would work for the U because they got awesome benefits, but would work on the side because they could often make as much money over the weekend than they could make all week for the U. But isn't scab work illegal if you're unionized? Con't.
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 11:44 a.m.
None---NONE--of the administrative support staff (e.g., secretaries, library staff, etc...) are organized. None--NONE--of the tenured and tenure track faculty are organized. None--NONE--of the staff researchers are organized. The vast majority of the hospital staff (nurses are the exception) are NOT organized. Note to all people who CLAIM to have belonged to unions: The EMPLOYER (in this case, the U) does not form a union. It is the EMPLOYEES who form their union. Under state and federal labor law the EMPLOYER is prohibited from interfering in that process. The U did not CHOOSE to have unions (as some who claim to have been in two unions) appears to think. The unions are imposed upon the U when the employees organize. So, whether or not the U has unions, to ascribe union formation and maintenance to the U and its policies is just manifest ignorance. Good Night and Good Luck
sbbuilder
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 1:11 a.m.
Re U of M unions: <a href="http://www.uofmskilledtrades.org/bylaws.html" rel='nofollow'>http://www.uofmskilledtrades.org/bylaws.html</a> Then there's the nurse's union, the TA's union, the police/security union etc. You may be able to find exceptions here and there, but basically the U is a fortified union bastion. In response to bidding on any public contract (including universities) see <a href="http://www.mlive.com/midland/index.ssf/2011/02/are_republicans_overreaching_with_public_act_that_allows_all_contractors_to_bid_on_public_constructi.html" rel='nofollow'>http://www.mlive.com/midland/index.ssf/2011/02/are_republicans_overreaching_with_public_act_that_allows_all_contractors_to_bid_on_public_constructi.html</a>
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 7:12 p.m.
"The policy of the U has been to only use union labor." Wrong. 1) It is not policy. It is the law if there is a union shop. 2) There are many, many non-academic employees who are not unionized (i.e., administrative support staff). Other than that, a typically factual post. SB, I urge you to head out to WCC in August when the UA trainers from around the nation are in town and tell them how the training they do for their membership isn't necessary and just adds costs for the consumer. I'm certain they'd be receptive to your ideas. Good Night and Good Luck
sbbuilder
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 6:58 p.m.
Cash The policy of the U has been to only use union labor. Every painter, maintenance worker, every janitor, cafeteria cook, truck driver, electrician, power plant worker etc. is part of a union. In addition, if you want to bid on contract work for the U, you must be a union shop. That kind of limits who can work, and who can't. One of the main reasons why the U is so expensive is that those costs are passed on to the students. Every last bit of work could be done by non-union workers for far less, but the U won't have it.
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 2:16 p.m.
@Cash and @Lisa, My thoughts exactly. Some people, apparently, cannot distinguish between problems with the employees and problems with the supervisor. A nice story, though! Good Night and Good Luck
Cash
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 2:11 p.m.
sb, Doesn't matter who the administration was....they are responsible for managing the people they hire.
sbbuilder
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 2:08 p.m.
In my first example, the 'administrator' was the U of M. How do you get around that? The second example was a parochial school that was basically bullied into switching trades mid-stream. How do you get around that?
Lisa Starrfield
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 2:01 p.m.
Sounds like the administration was problematic, doesn't it? What does that have to do with the union?
1bit
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 1:59 p.m.
sbbuilder: I like your anecdotes and they reverberate a common theme against some union workers/managers. I think I make a distinction between unions and lazy workers/bad managers. The latter are a problem in any business, but sometimes union rules (or corrupt managers) may prevent firing bad employees. It seems that the solution is to fix those problems rather than throwing the baby out with the bathwater, no?
Cash
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 1:57 p.m.
Another perfect example.Lazy management letting the union run the shop instead of being managers. This should be a coordinated effort and when lazy managers don't do their jobs, problems arise, union or non-union. They should have hired managers who wanted to work. You gotta be on your toes on the job!
sbbuilder
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 1:53 p.m.
Also, there was cut wires and busted equipment on a mixed union/non-union job. The owner decided to pay the 2x premium to go all union because they couldn't tolerate the lenghthened schedule, nor the bad publicity. (That was a parochial school here in town.) The union shafted the owner real hard because they didn't go all union to begin with. Nice guys. I could write pages of negative experiences with unions. Of course, it's all anecdotal.
sbbuilder
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 1:49 p.m.
The daily quota for rooms was 7 to 10. The pace was leisurely. We had a crash request to paint rooms at South Quad. For three days straight, we painted 24 - 27 rooms. Sure, we hustled, but why the huge disparity? Then, there was the union boss who slugged my mason and cut a huge gash in his cheek. Wouldn't hire his lazy nephew. Go figure. The mason took him on, otherwise, his work would be shut down.
sbbuilder
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 1:45 p.m.
Every day, the painting boss would lock the doors to the dorm rooms at 3 so that we couldn't prep the rooms ahead of the painters. They literraly would not let us work from 3 to 4:30, when we could go home. If you left five minutes early, though, you would be fired. No, we had to stay around sitting on paint buckets for an hour and a half in the paint shop. Con't
Michigan Reader
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 1:37 p.m.
It's the ever present mentality of self-interest-between employer-employee, husband-wife, government-citizens, look at the Middle East, landlord-tenant. We get into relationships to fill our wants and needs. ALWAYS.
snoopdog
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 1:30 p.m.
For you folks saying that Will's writing is all opinion and no fact just keep you head buried in the sand. He speaks the truth from his own experiences with unions and I can second exactly what he has said from my own dealings with unions. They protect the lazy, they dumb themselves down to the lowest common denominator, they create so much cost overun for companies that most over time simply cannot compete and go out of business. And the worst part is, "they eat their young". I have yet to see unions explain that one, I hope someone here can do this for us ? If unions cannot protect their newest, youngest and most vulnerable members, how on earth are we to believe they care about those they are working for and who provide for their livelihood ? Good Day
Mike
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 6:02 p.m.
I have had the same experiences with unions. And it's usually a few militant ones who pull out the rule book all of the ime and make your life hell. Most of the people are good, hardworking folks and the union leadership doesn't do anything to get rid of the militants
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 4:18 p.m.
"you'll never get anywhere with these people. They are so locked into anti corporation, tax the rich mentality that you can't even have a discussion of the obvious. " A typical teapartyist response to a request that unsupported assertions be backed up with facts. Just saying it makes it true in teapartyland. Good Night and Good Luck
Mike K
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 4:09 p.m.
Snoop - you'll never get anywhere with these people. They are so locked into anti corporation, tax the rich mentality that you can't even have a discussion of the obvious. But good luck anyway.
Lisa Starrfield
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 1:59 p.m.
Snoop, Most years since I've been in AAPS, we've been threatened with layoffs due to budget crisis after budget crisis (all imposed by the state). The union has made concessions in health care costs, salary, and working conditions to keep that from happening. We haven't had a lay off in Ann Arbor ever because of it. How dare you complain we eat our young!
bs
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 1:37 p.m.
more opinion and "stories"... let's see facts and figures on the impact of a unionized work force on productivity and profit.. waiting waiting waiting yeah, that's what I thought
bs
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 1:30 p.m.
I think the sentence " "That might be enough snow to serve as an excuse for not going to work." says it all. Mr. Warner doesn't even understand the reason that schools have "snow days" once in a while. He seems to think that they are called for the benefit of the teachers, because, as we all know, teachers are lazy, right? Mr. Warner, snow days happen because we want to protect kids who are riding to school on buses, or having to walk in terrible conditions. This has NOTHING to do with unions, or teachers. The statement you made is just another example of the hate you seem to want to spread. Let me ask you a question. If you were, say, the person responsible for a group of children who had to travel, let's say they were taking a flight overseas. And you learned that weather conditions were such that putting that airplane in the air would put those young people in your charge in serious danger and the airline decided to cancel the flight. Would you complain, call the pilots "lazy" because they get a day off and don't have to fly? Of course you wouldn't, you wouldn't want anything to happen to your kids or to the equipment they take with them, would you? They ARE more important than a performance, aren't they? And so it is with schools when they call a snow day (for which they have planned for in terms of number of school days because, gosh, we live in Michigan where it snows!) Your arguments are disingenuous to say the least, and if my child were in your charge, I would seriously question what you were teaching them.
David Briegel
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 1:28 p.m.
Hey Will, A corportion is a group of people banding together in a mutual interest. Maybe you can write about their evils in your next article. And then you can explain how a corporation is a person.
Dave M.
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 1:25 p.m.
> You understand me if you've ever heard a union veteran tell a new-hire, "Son, you need to slow down; > this job is supposed to take all day." Or, "Son, this job calls for five electricians, not one working like five." Mr. Warner, you are trading in canards. You have never heard anyone say that. If you insist that you have, I want names, location and date. You and I both know, however, that you cannot supply them because you pulled this quote out of the Republican Anti-Union Canard Playbook along with your other lame examples. Not being able to carry your own laptop or plug it in yourself? Where and when did this happen? Who told you this? Again, names and dates. Please supply a witness who can back up your story. But again, we both know you can't. Because these examples are cliches that Republicans use over and over again in complete defiance and ignorance of reality. It is sad that AnnArbor.com posted this drivel. But what do we expect out of GOP "thinkers" when Newt Gingrich is an example of their best and brightest?
dsklos
Mon, Apr 4, 2011 : 8:16 p.m.
I'm not sure what your experience is with unions, Dave M., but my father was a union man (Iron Workers Local 25) and continues to be a union man (Millright union in a steel mill down river), as was his father. He defends unions passionately, and while I'm certainly glad he has one and do think they have a valuable place in certain situations/industries, there are also certain cases where I think they bloat the cost of production under the banner of job security for their members. It seems like one of the major differences at the heart of this discussion is between unions such as those in the automobile production industry vs teacher's unions. I'd like to see a more involved and thoughtful debate on that subject instead of this shallow mudslinging that doesn't persuade anyone, nor bring any new thoughts and perspectives to light. To call Mr. Warner ignorant of reality only indicates your ignorance of him. I'd be interested to hear Mr. Warner's thoughts on the history of unions, and where they have had and, perhaps, do have a place in society. I for one think that securing a teacher's salary at some minimum level is critical to maintaining healthy competition for the best and brightest to become teachers, and thus, unions have a role here. At the same time, I think that tenure is a legacy system that allows burned out and antiquated teachers to persist in a system that requires energy and innovation just as much as any other industry. Thus, I think teacher's unions are important, though the system could be improved upon. I'd be interested to hear both Dave M and Mr. Warner's opinions on this, if they care to comment.
dsklos
Mon, Apr 4, 2011 : 7:14 p.m.
Dave M.: I'm not sure whether Mr. Warner has ever heard the phrase "Son, you need to slow down" directly in a union situation, however, I do know that he heard such a story second hand, from me, shortly after it happened. I was working at the Detroit Auto Show, I believe in 2005; my father knew one of the union bosses who did the recruiting for the show, and since it paid something along the lines of $22 p/hr, I did everything I could to get in on the gig. Once I got it, I was working hard to make sure that I was able to get as many hours from my boss as possible. I won't get in to the details of the story unless you would like me to, but basically we were told to carry a whole group of objects that didn't weigh more than 40 lbs from one location to another. Despite my youth and inexperience, I discovered a method for carrying two of these objects at the same time (one in each hand - what a radical idea!). While doing this, I was given a number of nasty looks, and after my forth or so trip, was told "hey man you don't have to work so hard - we want this job to last." Personally, I had found the job repetitive and boring and wanted to get it done with as fast as possible, but given we were making ~$25 per hour, ~$37.5 p/hr after 8 consecutive hrs of work or on Saturdays, and $50 p/hr on Sundays, the logic for working slowly wasn't too difficult to grasp. Further examples included loading in televisions to the showroom floor. We would go to the truck where I think we may have been permitted to remove the cargo from the truck, at which point the Teamsters Union took the cargo from the truck unload point into the building, the Iron Workers Union transported the cargo down the elevator, we transported it to our booth, at which point the electricians union plugged it into a standard wall outlet.
sbbuilder
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 2:05 p.m.
Dave M. I could provide you with names, dates, and documents. It would have to be ex-AA.com, though, for reasons of libel suits, etc.
braggslaw
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 1:32 p.m.
I have when I was a co-op in college. It is real and the I have seen many of the same analogous situations.
snoopdog
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 1:32 p.m.
you could not be more wrong my friend. You have obviously no real world experience with unions. Good Day
Cash
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 1:29 p.m.
Do we see a pattern? What subjects get the most hits? Then multiple articles on these subjects.
DonBee
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 1:18 p.m.
I found the editorial in yesterday's Detroit News interesting. Teaparty demonstrations, anti-democratic and dangerous. Union demonstrations were about carrying a message. The editorial points out some interesting questions on the way stories are covered and the tolerance of the media for antics on both sides of the political spectrum. I for one think unions have a place, but that some union leadership is out of touch and that the unions need to be willing to be agile to deal with changing circumstances. Most union locals are, some are not. An interesting case study is when the German company ZF took over several transmission plants from Ford. One local bent over backwards to be flexible. Another did not. One plant remained open and has more union members, the other is closed. Now this is a German company from highly unionized Germany.
DonBee
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 9:37 p.m.
Cash - I said Editorial, not article. I know the difference.
Cash
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 1:45 p.m.
Don, That is not an article. That is a Nolan Findley, the right wing editor of the News.
whodat
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 1:08 p.m.
A previous opinion piece written by this guy. Up next? Why extending Bush's tax cuts will stimulate the economy. When can we expect this article Mr. Warner? <a href="http://www.annarbor.com/news/opinion/the-incoherence-of-modern-environmentalism/index.php">http://www.annarbor.com/news/opinion/the-incoherence-of-modern-environmentalism/index.php</a>
Cash
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 1 p.m.
"In a word, the union mentality is unbecoming. Why not face the world as an individual? Offer your knowledge and skills in trade with others. Rise or fall on your own merits." I guess we can get rid of the Chamber of Commerce! And get rid of all corporate PACs. And let's be SURE to get rid of Yob group (Value for Mich aka Value for wealthy corporations) paying for advertising to push through Snyder's corporate tax breaks. All humans are individuals. They group together for certain benefits. Thus corporations form Chamber of Commerce and pay into PACs together to push through their own tax benefits etc. Nothing they'd like more than for the lower paid workers to be forced to disband to give their corporate unions such as the Chamber and Snyder- Yob group even more power.
bs
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 1:08 p.m.
Cash, if we're doing away with organized groups, can we please include the Mackinac Center for Public Policy, please!!!!!!!! 'cuz that group is NOT interested in the "public"
whodat
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 12:59 p.m.
I hate to tell you this Mr. Warner, but I've seen this "union mentality" just as much in the private sector as you have claimed to have witnessed in an unionized environment. Take your cliche talking points someplace else. Germany has some of the strongest, most innovative minds in the world, and their union presence is large and well respected, this coming from someone that works in the private sector.
whodat
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 8:54 p.m.
Mike - - If by "issues" you mean lower unemployment, a trade SURPLUS, and lower poverty levels, then I guess you got me. Do some research yourself.
Mike
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 5:59 p.m.
And Germany has some serious issues because of it, thanks for bring them up as an example
fjord
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 12:55 p.m.
Will Warner's idea of the "union mentality": "Son, this job calls for five electricians, not one working like five." Is that anything like... "Will, this column calls for some actual research, not a bunch of lazy opinions and unsupported accusations." This whole column is a violation of AnnArbor.com's conversation guidelines. How did it get posted in the first place?
Audion Man
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 6:09 p.m.
I think it is in the interest of the fine folks at Newhouse to skewer Unions by any means necessary. It isn't entirely about hits.
bs
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 1:48 p.m.
Of course it's about the "hits". Never fool yourself into thinking that this web site is about bringing fair and balanced, quality reporting, it's about selling "hits" . That would also be the only reason this discussion forum exists, it brings more "hits" to the site.
Cash
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 1:40 p.m.
Sadly, it seems that when one article draws a lot of hits here, many more on the same subject will appear. The past few weeks this trend has become quite obvious. It doesn't even seem to matter if it leans left or right as long as it draws lots of hits.
1bit
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 1:07 p.m.
It's just an opinion piece. But to paraphrase Shakespeare, the piece itself is full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. It conjures perception instead of exploring facts and has less depth than a puddle. But then again, those are only the nice things I can say...
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 12:50 p.m.
"Of course, if the rental facility and transport is supplied by someone else, the "professional educator" should charge less." I guess that's why the people who work at Gretchen's House make more than did my babysitters (when my kids were much younger) who worked in my home? Good Night and Good Luck
braggslaw
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 12:49 p.m.
Every union experience I have had in my life as an engineer, business person etc. has been horrid. The time when I was a 22 year old engineer wanting to trouble shoot a PLC, but I had to wait for a millwright to open the panel, an electrician to move the wire, and a technician to swap the card. It took two days and I could have done it in five minutes. The time that the hourly workers would flash their checks in front of my face, saying I was stupid to goto college. The time I found a potroast in a curing machine. The time I found a worker indulging himself in a closet, yet he was not fired. The time there was a strike and keys were broken off in all of the machines so we could not run them. Every single experience with unions in my life has been negative and counter-productive to the profit generating of the enterprise I was working for.
Audion Man
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 5:50 p.m.
@sbbuilder Jest all you want, but anyone can come on here and make up any number of convenient "facts" and "experiences". Anecdotes don't help. @braggslaw unions suck. not having them at this juncture, sucks more. people with way too much power and way too much money want to destroy them utterly. You might be content thinking that destroying the unions will be for your benefit. I, on the other hand, think it is extremely foolish to trust that the Koch Brothers and Rick Snyders of this world have my best interests at heart.
Lisa Starrfield
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 9:30 p.m.
Braggslaw, Given some of your statements here, if you were to enter my classroom and speak to my students like you write here, I might HAVE to put my head down to avoid making faces. You don't know if that teacher was sick, that teacher was grieving for a recent loss, had been up all night with a sick baby, or if that teacher merely was a jerk. But one experience is not justification to fire an entire school district. Yes, DPS has terrible test scores but DPS has been left with the poorest of poor students. Most everyone who could leave the district has. Poverty is difficult to overcome.
Lisa Starrfield
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 9:25 p.m.
Braggslaw, As we have explained MANY MANY times, it is not our responsibility to fire teachers. That is administration's job and even bad engineers won't be fired unless their manager acts. If management fails to remove a teacher, they will stay just like any other salaried worker. If administration is responsible, bad teachers can be and are removed.
Ace Ventura
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 5:38 p.m.
In my experience there are many non union engineer's and business persons who spend all day playing on the internet and posting anti union thoughts. The people would probably be much more successful in their chosen occupations if they spent more time doing their job and running their business rather than frittering away the day.
braggslaw
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 5:35 p.m.
Fireemall reinterview....hire the few good ones
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 5:18 p.m.
Assuming what you wrote to be true, one teacher putting their head down on their desk = fire 'em all. We have now moved in to true silliness. Must be nice to live in a world where very complex problems have such obviously simple solutions. Good Night and Good Luck
braggslaw
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 4:31 p.m.
The psl invited professionals the teachers were happy to nap
braggslaw
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 4:05 p.m.
I have done seminars in the psl and to say I was not impressed by the teachers is an understatement As I spoke about career opportunities to eager young people I watched teachers lay their heads down and nap or better yet give a Maoist rendition of the how to beat the man Those kids have no shot and the teachers union is a large part of the problem I do understand the process, I understand those kids are all doomed
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 3:46 p.m.
"Oh and by the way, they should fire every teacher in the Detroit PSL and start over." An utterly absurd statement that reveals a complete lack of understanding of the educational process. Yes, because the disintegration of the community and of its families have nothing to do with what happens in the DPS. This is not to say that there aren't bad teachers in the DPS. Clearly there are. Just as there are bad engineers. But to suggest that ANY teacher can magically overcome the huge problems in that community is just ignorant. The fact of the matter is that the success stories are near-miracles and the failures to be expected given the community's circumstances. Good Night and Good Luck
braggslaw
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 3:18 p.m.
Oh and by the way, they should fire every teacher in the Detroit PSL and start over. $11,500 per student and teachers paid in the 96th percentile equal the lowest graduation rate and the lowest test scores in the U.S. I don't see how Detroit teachers can complain about pay for performance, because there is zero performance.
braggslaw
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 3:10 p.m.
Lisa, You miss the point entirely When I was an engineer we fired people who were bad. I made sure I was at the top of my field and I was very productive. The people who employed me kept me while they fired less productive engineers. I have no problem paying the best as long as you can fire the worst. That is the ultimate problem with unions, they are safe havens for unproductive workers. Right now the teachers' unions work on a seniority scale and steps rather than on performance.
Lisa Starrfield
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 2:14 p.m.
Braggs, You went from complaining about how lazy and bad union workers because they worked to rule, were destructive or counter productive to complaining that teacher unions allow teachers to get more money than they deserve (in your opinion). Yes or no. Do you believe that to get the best engineers you have to compensate them well? Do you believe that to get the best doctors you have to compensate them well? Do you believe that to get the best corporate leadership you have to compensate them well? (Snyder clearly does) If you answered yes to any of those questions yet still believe that teachers are over compensated (country club health care indeed... I get 1 dental x-ray every 5 years.), then you either believe that the best teachers don't matter or you believe education doesn't matter
braggslaw
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 1:30 p.m.
Teaching is the same. You have a special interest (teacher's unions) with monopoly power using that monopoly power to extract value that they could not command on the open market. You also have the "hidden" increase in costs with pensions and country club health insurance. I see no difference.
braggslaw
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 1:29 p.m.
These are my real life experiences and I worked as an engineer for a decade. Discount them if you want but they are the absolute truth. In my experience Unions have led to sloth, poor services and low quality. I worked in the computer industry, Chemical industry and auto industry. I states where we had non-union facilities we had a dedicated workforce because their jobs were dependent on their productivity.
Will Warner
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 1:21 p.m.
BL, we seem to have had similar experiences. There was also the time when I could see the stuff I had ordered sitting behind a fence in "receiving" and could have easily carried to my bench. Instead, after 3 weeks, I came in at night, climbed over the fence, took the equiment, and let them deliver me an empty box 2 weeks after that.
Lisa Starrfield
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 1:20 p.m.
Gross generalization is generally not a trait of engineers. None of your experiences apply to teaching. We are not a profit generating enterprise; we are educating our communities students and our union rules actually support our ability to do that.
sbbuilder
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 1:13 p.m.
See fjord below for evidence of the dismissal of anything that doesn't have hard factual basis.
sbbuilder
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 1:12 p.m.
braggslaw But you see, your evidence is just anecdotal, and therefore must be considered suspect, and also therefore to be discounted, even reviled.
baker437
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 12:44 p.m.
"In a word, the union mentality is unbecoming. Why not face the world as an individual? Offer your knowledge and skills in trade with others. Rise or fall on your own merits. Find job security in being valuable to your employers. Make your employer's goals and objectives your own. Make your bosses worry that they might lose you. Or start your own business. At least have enough self-respect to realize that if you need asinine work rules to keep your job, you don't deserve your job." If every person in MI did this we might start to recover as a state!
northside
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 12:34 p.m.
This is just a paraphrased version of a speech given by C. Montgomery Burns.
Rob Pollard
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 8:38 p.m.
Excellent. (Drums fingertips together)
bs
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 12:34 p.m.
Here's a little video that addresses what teachers "make" <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxsOVK4syxU" rel='nofollow'>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxsOVK4syxU</a>
MjC
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 12:10 p.m.
I understand you, Will. My children all graduated through the Ann Arbor Public School system. They did quite well as long as I made sure they didn't get stuck with the Union backed teacher who should have been fired years before. The outstanding teachers, the ones who make a difference, are treated exactly the same way as the teachers who can't even lift a piece of chalk. Merit reward structures and competition can be a good thing, but the Unions don't get that.
johnnya2
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 2:36 p.m.
Hilton, You are free to work for private non-union schools at any time. Of course the pay decrease is why you do not. You want the benefits of higher pay as a union teacher, but not the cost associated with it. Try Greenhills,. Roeper, Catholic Central and any number of private schools and you can be a non-union teacher As for negotiating your own pay. Tell us how many teachers are in your district. How much time do you want the administration to take to separate each and every contract out. The union makes sure you are treated fairly and do not have to negotiate a contract. Imagine a baseball player who tried to negotiate his own contract. Having people who negotiate contracts for a living is a GOOD thing. Your job is to teach, not negotiate.
Klayton
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 12:45 p.m.
@Cash I am a teacher and I think Unions are really backwards. I HATE that I pay over 700 dollars every year to the Union (because I have to). I have begged to not be in the Union (closed shop where I am) and to negotiate my own contract (like in the real business world of professionals). I am told "no, the Union does this for you." But all the Union does is think about the teachers on the high end of the pay scale and their retirement. My Union has an "us versus them" mentality that is very wrong in my opinion. They act like the administration is the evil enemy. The Union does not care about the students, if they did they would negotiate for smaller class sizes, more intervention help for teachers, remove the poor and ineffective teachers, more opportunities for PD for teachers around special education, technology integration, innovative teaching. My Union has done nothing for me except to keep my salary down, protect the art teacher who had an affair with an underage student, protect the social studies teacher that gives a study hall about 3 days a week so he can read his newspaper, protect the math teacher who is inappropriate with students. The administration tries to remove these teachers and the Union flies in with their lawyers to protect these teachers. I am embarrassed to be part of this Union and would welcome a place where I negotiate my own contract, my salary is based on merit and evaluation and not on years in. This is the 2nd school where I have been forced to join the Union. In my previous school (in another state) I did not have to join the Union (so I did not) but I still had to pay the dues (whyyyy???). I negotiated my own contract and it was BETTER than what I would have received on the Union scale. I have experienced that if you do an excellent job you can negotiate a very good contract and the parents will push for it too!
Mike
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 5:58 p.m.
Teachers need to be evaluated by parents and students, and then the final evaluation by the administration. A good teacher can be life changing or completely ruin a student's education. My son's have asked questions of teachers and were told to go look in the book, or you should know that already. A good teacher answers the student's questions and encourages them to ask more. Eevry kid has a different learning style, too many techers think all should be the same and those whose ask too many questions are told to look in the book until they quit asking. Telling a kid he should know that already is a major discouragement to ask questions.
Lisa Starrfield
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 1:07 p.m.
Oh the Holy Grail of Teacher Reform... Merit pay. Florida just removed tenure from new teacher hires in exchange for 'merit pay' which was not funded and given the budget cuts, I'm certain it will be minimal. In Indiana, they just published a sample salary schedule based on their new merit pay. It's pathetic. $900 a year for being 'highly effective', $400 a year for department chairs, $300 for working in a school with more than 80% of students eligible for free or reduced lunch. That's $2000 a year for working in a high poverty school, taking on a significant extra duty and students showing more than a year's growth. That's about $30 a week maximum. THAT is the grand plan for improving education?
Cash
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 12:40 p.m.
Merit points should be given to parents in each grade. How many show up for conferences? How many communicate with the teacher about heir child? How many work WITH the school to improve classroom size etc? Then use those merit points to help "judge" a teacher.....what did the teacher have to work with while trying to help a child? Lazy parent = unsuccessful child.
local
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 12:24 p.m.
How would merit pay look in your world? Kids show progress, the teacher gets merit pay? What if kid is 3 grade levels behind when he/she enters 5th grade and the teacher works hard to get the child to the beginning of 5th grade level by end of year. However, they still don't meet end of year outcomes for 5th grade, does that teacher not get merit pay even though the child clearly made progress? Who decides whether teacher is performing if not scores? If you say principal, well what if principal doesn't like teacher, or doesn't agree with teachers method. Should a principal have the power to dictate merit pay based on their evaluation? Where does money come from to pay merit pay? Clearly their are teachers who struggle, but the same can be said in any profession out their. And a teacher who you think sucks, might be looked upon favorably by others.
Cash
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 12:19 p.m.
"The outstanding teachers, the ones who make a difference, are treated exactly the same way as the teachers who can't even lift a piece of chalk." Sounds like you are saying that the administration in AAPS did not do it's job. The agreement between the administration and the teachers is mutual and sets the work rules. It is not the job of the teachers to supervise and evaluate themselves. It is the job of the administration to supervise, monitor and evaluate their work.
1bit
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 12:09 p.m.
Although Mr. Warner tries to equate "union mentality" with laziness and fecklessness, those attributes are hardly the exclusive domain of unions and Mr. Warner provides very anecdotal evidence to the contrary. Unions have their place and I believe it will be in everyone's interest for a less adversarial relationship between unions and their employers.
Dante Marcos
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 12:08 p.m.
What an eloquent paean to the rugged individualism of white, affluent suburbanites. Gustave Flaubert would have called the ideas nestled in this Township Sermon "received" (from mainstream media). "I seek to rise with workers, not rise from them." —Eugene Debs
Lisa Starrfield
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 12:07 p.m.
Such a narrow view of professional. So narrow that by YOUR definition our prosecutors and any other individual working for the state would not be considered one. What is a professional? "In western nations, such as the United States, the term commonly describes highly educated, mostly salaried workers, who enjoy considerable work autonomy, a comfortable salary, and are commonly engaged in creative and intellectually challenging work" What part of that do you think doesn't apply to teaching? How does belonging to a union interfere with that? I still have autonomy and still have creative and intellectually challenging work.
Lisa Starrfield
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 9:21 p.m.
Will, Engineers are frequently laid off between 40 and 50 unable to get another engineering job because they are too expensive. That's a shame because they often have valuable knowledge and skills. Maybe they need a union.
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 3:40 p.m.
There is a substantial literature on professionalism. The standard definition includes: 1) A skill that requires college degree--frequently an advanced one 2) A skill that is licensed 3) A professional association that provides connection to others of that profession, thereby encouraging the professional growth of all 4) Code of ethics 5) Service to the public good Nowhere here does the presence of a union (or lack thereof) enter into the definition of a profession. Good Night and Good Luck
Will Warner
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 2:23 p.m.
Lisa, I think a professional would not submit himself to a system for last-hired/first-fired.
Macabre Sunset
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 1:55 p.m.
Because unions reward seniority, not quality. I don't think someone can call himself a professional and belong to a union.
bs
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 11:43 a.m.
Someone found the right wing talking points memo in the mailbox, eh?
Cash
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 11:30 a.m.
My recommendation: Pick up a copy of the Detroit Free Press and read David Jesse's brilliant front page lead story on Michigan higher education and comparisons of administrative increases to faculty increases etc. It is an in depth expose' of what is going on with salaries in the Michigan education today! People who whine about union faculty might be a bit surprised at his findings. Good work Mr Jesse! AnnArbor.com's loss was Detroit Free Press's gain. Here's the e-version: <a href="http://www.freep.com/article/20110327/NEWS06/103270503/Amid-tougher-times-spending-payroll-soars-Michigan-universities?odyssey=tab" rel='nofollow'>http://www.freep.com/article/20110327/NEWS06/103270503/Amid-tougher-times-spending-payroll-soars-Michigan-universities?odyssey=tab</a>|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 10:38 p.m.
Yes, DonBee. They are. The discussion was about university administrators in the Freep article. But thanks for the info. Much appreciated. Good Night and Good Luck
DonBee
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 9:33 p.m.
In AAPS - the Ann Arbor Administrator's Association is the bargaining unit for all the principal and most of the other senior staff. Only a few senior people (like the Superintendent) are not represented by this group. The contract is on the AAPS website.
Cash
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 4:31 p.m.
Yes, Ed,also the "me too" mentality kicks in..."give the workers a 3% and we'll take a 6%". The very first time I was in the negotiation process many years ago I learned that lesson. Administrators NEVER lose.
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 3:23 p.m.
The best part: unions have ZERO to do with the compensation of the vast majority of administrators at these schools, and certainly nothing at all to do with the unconscionable increase in top administrators' salaries. Those who support the bonuses for Borders executives and higher salaries for the university administrators sing the same song: we need these to attract and keep top talent. That the very same people who spout this logic (esp. where the private sector is concerned) believe that it doesn't apply to cops, to fire personnel, and to teachers. We are living in a bizarre world. Good Night and Good Luck
Cash
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 12:35 p.m.
Local, Isn't it? This is what a lot of us have been looking for...real facts! I'll bet some higher ed administrators are squirming today! David Jesse definitely shines!
local
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 12:26 p.m.
Awesome article!!
Cash
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 11:13 a.m.
What an odd article. No facts. I worked as an administrator with unionized employees for years. The contract, negotiated between us, gave us all a set of work rules and made my job easier. Everything was defined and equal for all. Did it keep me on my toes? You bet! But isn't the administration supposed to be alert and aware? The antiquated "anti-union" rhetoric expressed here is laughable. We agreed on a set of work rules, and lived by them. When the union is a problem in an organization it is for one reason only: the administration got lazy and let the union run the shop instead of working together as a team.
Cash
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 6:45 p.m.
Mike, did you help to negotiate that contract? If so, why did you negotiate that? If not, ask the management why they negotiated that? Were they just lazy or did an inexperienced person blow themselves up with some equipment. Could be lot of different possibilities.
Mike
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 5:51 p.m.
Having union rules doesn't make your job easier. It sometimes makes it almost impossible to get anything. Want to start an air compressor? You need an operating engineer. Don't ever ask your electricians or plumbers to clean up after themselves that's a laborers job even if the trademan has nothing to do. Carpet tack strips can't be put down by the carpet installers, that's carpenter work. All of these work rules make everything cost more. How can that be good???????
Basic Bob
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 1:34 p.m.
"When the union is a problem in an organization it is for one reason only: the administration got lazy and let the union run the shop instead of working together as a team." I agree heartily! The union is frequently used as an excuse for abdication of responsibility by management, and the same "union mentality" behavior by non-union workers.
local
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 11 a.m.
Okay Will, my friend is a teacher and he is going to render services to your child/grandchildren. The going rating for a babysitter is $5-10 an hour. So we will go with 5.00 an hour 5x30 kids is 150.00 an hour (x32=160.00) 150.00 x 5=750.00 (160.00x5=800.00) 750.00x180 days= 135,000 a year. (800.00x180=144,000) Mind you, the 30 kids might go up to closer to 32-35 based on budget issues within the district, so money might actually be higher. Now mind you, a babysitter doesn't teach kids, they watch them, make sure they don't get in trouble. I guess as a "professional" educator, my friend should start charging for services rendered. Every example you gave of union mentality (minus bargaining raises over keeping workers) dealt with plants and factories. Are you trying to question teachers, or factory workers? Let's not confuse the two, because what you have said about factory workers is true, but they also get paid over overtime, and working weekends. It seems to me that if you are trying to lump teachers and factory union workers together, might be tough to do. Just one persons thought this early morning while having a cup of Joe.
Jonathan Willard
Mon, Sep 5, 2011 : 3:01 p.m.
You know what? I think this guy comparing a babysitter to a teacher is on to something. Lets toss in another factor. The babysitters main job is the health and welfare of child. When you pick them up and everything is ok, job is done to standard, babysitter can go to bed knowing she earned her pay. The teacher on the other hand, come graduation, if 50% of the kids even graduate thats an accomplishment and if 50% of those graduating can even read and write or do 3rd grade math, well, thats a job well done them. The thing that puzzles me the most, is with the educational statistics we have today, this genius can even TRY to justify higher wages for teachers. Please, when you start showing some results, then we will talk. Until then, talk to the hand.
EyeHeartA2
Tue, Mar 29, 2011 : 5:47 p.m.
Shocking how nobody realizes that the price of a good or service is determined by the market, not wages + overhead. Cost - wages - overheard - COGS etc = profit. If profit < 0, (or not enough higher than zero to make it worth your while), no commerce occurs. If no commerce, no wages.
johnnya2
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 2:29 p.m.
macabre, Since you ate NOT a professional as a teacher, how do you know it is a poor teacher? Maybe it is a poor student? Based on his genetics, I would assume the latter. I am not an auto mechanic, and I do not go to a mechanic and tell him, if he is doing his job well or not.
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 11:34 a.m.
". . . so I resent the unions that created this problem." Sounds to me like a principal not doing their job. Have you documented the teacher's shortcomings and presented them to the principal? If so, with no result, have you complained to the superintendent? If so, with no result, have you gone to the school board? Or, is it just easier complain about someone you don't like and to justify your world view based on that person than it is to actually do something about it? Good Night and Good Luck
Macabre Sunset
Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 12:51 a.m.
The pro-union crowd here is definitely unable to argue on point. Nothing but ad-hominems and a refusal to understand that they're bankrupting this entire country. A job is not an entitlement. People with government jobs should be held to the same standards as those in the private sector. As for me, Jonny, I am under 50 with a child in elementary school. A child who has a very poor teacher, so I have to research education myself to fill in the gaps. I am not a trained teacher, nor am I being paid to do this, so I resent the unions that created this problem.
Will Warner
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 6:09 p.m.
Johnny Spirt? Is that really you? I see you every other Saturday or so in Spartan Stadium in the fall. And I didn't say anything about teachers. My kids went through the Saline Schools and never had a bad teacher.
Jonny Spirit
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 5:30 p.m.
Let's see you can tell all you people who replied to this post are over the age of 50 and have no kids near the babysitting age. If you have paid for day care the price does not go down per child in the class. You pay what ever they tell you to pay if there is 5 kids in the class or 15. Why are all you people jealous of teachers. You clearly hate them and can't wait for them to suffer. For some reason the same 6 people who think they need to post a comment on everything are nothing more then laughable. Yes you know who I'm talking about, you have nothing to say that is nice and nothing positive. Please stop, nobody cares how bad you hate teachers. Mr. Warner is just one more person full of hate towards teachers that needs to do something positive with his time instead of telling me how bad he hates people.
Macabre Sunset
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 1:53 p.m.
Don't forget that when teachers are babysitting 30 children in their classes, each child is receiving 1/30th of the attention he would from his regular babysitter. But other than that, you have accurately described the role of a teacher in the AAPS these days. Nothing more than a babysitter with an attitude. They are extraordinarily well-compensated for this service.
antikvetch
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 1:27 p.m.
Unfortunately, Mr. Ghost, your anecdotal response lacks sufficient information to analyze.
DonBee
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 1:13 p.m.
Most babysitters I know give a discount for child 2, 3 and so forth. So for 3 we typically paid $10 or 11 an hour. Babysitters either came to our home or they used their own. So if you want to follow this situation, that is fine, let the folks who want to be teachers provide a facility that meets code. Overall the comparison is absurd.
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 12:50 p.m.
"Of course, if the rental facility and transport is supplied by someone else, the "professional educator" should charge less." I guess that's why the people who work at Gretchen's House make more than did my babysitters (when my kids were much younger) who worked in my home? Good Night and Good Luck
antikvetch
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 12:36 p.m.
Of course, if the rental facility and transport is supplied by someone else, the "professional educator" should charge less. Further, as class size increases, per student compensation costs should decrease, based on less individualized care. If the "professional educator" strongly feels he or she is underpaid, he or she should start their own charter school and charge what the market will bear...
Craig Lounsbury
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 12:04 p.m.
fair enough but you failed to factor it in either way. And I'm not anti union.
local
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 11:59 a.m.
Then Craig, clearly the professional educator would have to change the cost to more like 8.00 to cover cost of rental and such.
Craig Lounsbury
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 11:56 a.m.
In your little babysitter math exercise you forgot to subtract the babysitters cost to rent the room where he/she watches 30-35 kids from 30-35 different families.