thankfulmom132

Mon, Jan 9, 2012 : 4:13 a.m.

oops, I meant wholeheartedly.

Steven Harper Piziks

Mon, Jan 9, 2012 : 12:29 a.m.

Ohhhh, yes. Everyone wants year-round schools, but no one wants to pay for it. And no one wants year-round schools to interfere with their own particular vacation trip, either.

eom

Tue, Jan 10, 2012 : 1:52 a.m.

And as a taxpayer, you should want the BEST teachers - it's one of the main reasons Ann Arbor is named "Best this..." and "Best that..."

snoopdog

Mon, Jan 9, 2012 : 2:45 a.m.

Heh clownsfish, Judge Judy is not supported by my tax dollars. I am not her boss and she has taken no money from me. You take dollars from me every week and I am your employer. There is no comparo between Judge Judy's relationship with me (where there is none) and your relationship with me ( where there is one) ! Good Day

eom

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 11:10 p.m.

I saw that too...and never once thought "I hate that woman because she's successful and has a house that has 'grounds', not a lawn." I only wish the world didn't think teachers are the problem. Sigh. We appreciate those who don't. Thank you.

Poorman

Tue, Jan 10, 2012 : 12:05 a.m.

Maybe we want what we can't afford. The reality is there is not enough money to continue to pay our teachers above the national average when our tax base from the big three has been hit this hard. From comments above, 166 teachers in one school district two years ago making over $80,000 each is not sustainable (especially with pension and benefits on top of this cost). It is far from cheap, cheap, cheap. This district did not give up it's guaranteed 3% raises so this cost is even higher today. Today, the school is considering cutting programs in art, academics and athletics for the students and offering online math programs for classes. It appears that teachers will not solve this issue themselves, so now the government will. Most Michigan teachers I know, drive a Honda and complain that we don't have tax money to pay their wage.

Steven Harper Piziks

Mon, Jan 9, 2012 : 12:27 a.m.

Yeah! Cut those teacher salaries! We want cheap, cheap, cheap teachers educating our children! The Wal-Mart model is the way to go!

Poorman

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 4:08 p.m.

A good start, these groups should be commended. More is needed. We have education wages that are above the national average with a tax revenue that is below the national average. We need a solution that is not just raising taxes. Raising taxes will push more industry out of our state.

4Reason

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 8:51 p.m.

In my experience, the "bad" teachers all went on to become "bad" administrators.

J. A. Pieper

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 4:29 p.m.

Very true Wendy, one reason we have "bad teachers" is because of the poor job administrators do when evaluating teachers. It takes a lot of work, and documentation ( evidence) to not give a teacher tenure. Who is evaluating these administrators? Complaints about poor administrators are brushed off by their bosses as a school that just "whines" a lot! Balas administrators do not want to admit that they made a mistake in hiring such administrators. So, they are left in the buildings, doing a poor job, and then the trickle down effect takes place, just like trickle down economics!

snapshot

Mon, Jan 9, 2012 : 12:46 a.m.

You can't separate teachers from teachers unions. They are joined at the hip.

bornblu

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 11:07 p.m.

I really wish you were right, but I believe that within our current dialogue, respect (or the beating down) of teachers has become primarily, if not solely, about money. This would pertain to salary, tenure, benefits, retirement, charter schools, etc. It seems as if we ever wish to discuss academic achievment, cirriculum, support services, or any other necessary school attribute we begin and end our conversation relative to the above financial issues. I am quite conservative and believe in the need for a balanced budget that addresses all educational areas; but please do not view these concerns as a "beating down of teachers"

maestra27

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 2:10 p.m.

Your question is, "Part time in a full time world for full time pay & benefits?" So, if teachers really only work part time but rake in full time pay and benefits, then might I ask why you aren't a teacher? Seems like a no-brainer to me.

JustMyOpinion

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 5:58 p.m.

There needs to be a professional attitude and accountability driven `system about teaching. Most teachers have preparation and marking for classes that consume many, many hours outside of school. Where is the accounting made for that time, which surely must be considered paid work? I agree we can do without the top heavy and overpaid administration - but it starts with parental involvement - of which their is precious little. Look at U of M, same issue - ridiculously paid administration governs mid level teaches. If you want to make it a year round calender (which I am all for), then you will need to pay teaches more as well. I do think its worth it - poorly educated kids are a bleak future for us all. Highly paid teachers drives competition!

jns131

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 2:09 p.m.

It is not too much time off, it is too much pay wise for these administrators who sit inside Balais and think they can live off the backs of the school children. Good points you have here.

eom

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 11:06 p.m.

"Cadillac benefits" a phrase I wish were illegal, as it doesn't vaguely describe the benefits of most teachers in the U.S. I'm grateful for my insurance and thankful to have a job that offers it, but our insurance falls flat and wouldn't be considered a Cadillac. Mid-size sedan, sure, but not Caddy worthy.

Tru2Blu76

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 8:31 p.m.

And WHO produced this new "real world"?? Given the choice, wouldn't the average American PREFER to have continued access to those factory jobs available to "high school grads."?? I for one resent having ONE political party devoted to degrading both the majority of income earners and the services they want and need - just for the sake of a (right wing) ideology. I hope you feel the same.

Sparty

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 9:53 a.m.

RofL, exactly.

snapshot

Mon, Jan 9, 2012 : 1:14 a.m.

Steven Harper, I believe parents should be part of the teacher evaluation process just as customers evaluate a retail business with their continued patronage. Since Public schools have a monopoly on most education an objective evaluation is necessary. Will it be perfect, no. Is it perfect now, no. The example you use is the exception but present it as the norm. Why the exception is always used by educators is sore spot with me. I could point out bad teachers but then you would argue that the bad teacher was the exception and not the norm. I don't slight your efforts and I can't pretend to know what goes on in your classroom but from your posting I would venture to say you may exhibit, intentionally or unintentionally, a bias toward the child that he may be picking up on. You may not be aware of your intonation or dialog used with or toward the child but I can tell you have an attitude towards him and the parents. I t may show and act as a catalyst for his behavior.

Steven Harper Piziks

Mon, Jan 9, 2012 : 12:22 a.m.

Snapshot, your comment is a non-sequitir. How does the education community's desire for more parental involvement have anything to do with the status quo on a forum? In any case, mun is right, but in a sideways kind of way. Among my students, the ones who are successful usually have parents who watch them. I rarely have parents who DEMAND that I do something. The demanding parents, in my experience, usually have kids with lower grades--the parents want me to make up for their kids' inability to hand in homework or pay attention in class or behave. I once had a student who called another student a racial epithet. I removed the mouthy kid from the room for the period, and his mother demanded that in the future I keep her son in the room at all times because he needed to learn. My response was, "The kid who he called N needs to learn, too, and his need trumps your son's." Mouthy boy rarely turned in work, and every time he was missing an assignment, Mom saw it on the computer and was on the phone to me, demanding that I ask him about it and accept it for full credit, even though it was late. A typical conversation might go: "He skipped class on Wednesday, which is why he didn't turn it in, and since the absence is unexcused, he has a zero." "Well, you have to teach him!" And on we went. He was transferred to someone else at the semester because Mom said I was too difficult a teacher. She never made him take responsibility for his own learning or his own work. I felt sorry for the kid, when I wasn't ticked off at him, because once he gets out of high school and Mom can't run interference for him, he'll be in trouble.

snapshot

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 1:30 p.m.

I agree mun, but while many educators decry the lack of parental involvement in the education process teacher unions adamantly oppose any input with a forum that would challenge or change the status quo.

maestra27

Mon, Jan 9, 2012 : 11:26 p.m.

@snapshot You have a very convenient way of twisting the meaning of words, so let me clarify for you. You said, "the 900 million is better used elsewhere." I said, "That is not your decision, and it shouldn't be an arbitrary decision made by self-serving legislators. That decision was made by Michigan voters long ago." Completely contrary to what you said, I am absolutely in favor of protecting democracy and the rights of the voters. The voters decided to use lottery money and sales tax to partially fund K-12 education. It is not up to you, or Governor Snyder, to use that money elsewhere . . . the decision rests with the voters. Since I assume you are a voter, you are entitled to exercise your right to vote on issues such as these and I would never dream of "voiding (your) constitutional rights." However, please understand that this issue was decided long ago BY THE VOTERS. Hopefully that clarifies my position for you.

snapshot

Mon, Jan 9, 2012 : 5:04 a.m.

First it was thousands of dollars for dozens of lunches, then you say it is not my decision how tax dollars are used. Thank you for voiding my rights as a citizen in favor of your rights as a union member. Those "self serving" legislators are who citizens voted for and they are trying to protect us from those self serving unions. Warrens bill was to protect education unions "plain and simple" it's not about the kids, it's about protecting your union turf. Plain and simple. Your arrogance in just voiding my constitutional rights is overwhelming. It drives home the fact that union influence is out of control. You have solidified my resolve that we must take back our schools from the unions. For the kids sake.

maestra27

Mon, Jan 9, 2012 : 2:58 a.m.

@snapshot &quot;If schools don't get the money, a big reason will be a $1.6 billion business tax cut that took effect Jan. 1. That cut is costing the School Aid Fund — the primary revenue source for Michigan's K-12 schools — more than $700 million per year, or almost $500 per student, according to the Senate Fiscal Agency. In fact, the loss of money from the business tax means the state's School Aid Fund is expected to see its lowest revenues in inflation-adjusted dollars since the adoption of Proposal A in 1994.&quot; <a href="http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/index.ssf/2012/01/new_michigan_usiness_tax_cut_t.html" rel='nofollow'>http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/index.ssf/2012/01/new_michigan_usiness_tax_cut_t.html</a>

maestra27

Mon, Jan 9, 2012 : 2:57 a.m.

@snapshot So, let me get this straight. You're suggesting that the MEA is &quot;out of control with their political influence&quot; simply because they bought Rebekah Warren lunch?? This doesn't exactly qualify the MEA as &quot;out of control&quot; when it comes to political influence. Look no further than ALEC if you want an example of an organization that's &quot;out of control with their political influence.&quot; Then you suggest that Warren &quot;came out with a bill to amend the constitution to cap charter schools because they are not in the best interest of the MEA.&quot; Actually, Warren introduced a bill to cap charter schools because they're not in the best interest of KIDS - plain and simple. As for the money that was stolen from the School Aid Fund you suggest that the &quot;900 million is better used elsewhere.&quot; That is not your decision, and it shouldn't be an arbitrary decision made by self-serving legislators. That decision was made by Michigan voters long ago. Our Governor and lawmakers knowingly disregarded the will of the people. Lastly, don't assume that any teacher is fighting to &quot;retain the good life.&quot; The educators who are in it for the long haul are in it for the kids. Those who aren't don't survive more than a few years.

snapshot

Mon, Jan 9, 2012 : 1:24 a.m.

Steven, &quot;your administrators run their butts off all day long and still have more to do&quot; maybe you need better administrators that address the root problems rather than the symptoms. It's possible teachers might be part of that problem in your school. Maybe I do know what I'm talking about.

snapshot

Mon, Jan 9, 2012 : 1:01 a.m.

maestra, MEA hires lobbying firms to wine and dine legislatures like Warren who they bought the most lunches for according to a recent article. She then came out with a bill to amend the constitution to cap charter schools because they are not in the best interest of the MEA. That bill did not pass and charter schools will help solve the Detroit Public schools problem. That is undue influence. You can't &quot;lose&quot; something that you never had. That 900 million is better used elsewhere. Why you insist it was something you were entitled to makes no sense. The diversion was legal, even if you don't agree with it. Let it go and concentrate on why Ann Arbor needs more money when they already get 2,000 dollars more per student than other districts. What you advocate and what irritates you seems to be a money issue. You are fighting to retain the good life, I get that. But please don't make it a noble cause using the kids as pawns in the game. You go in do your job as good as possible, hopefully it's good enough to keep your job just like 85% of the work force. The gravy train ran out of steam.

Steven Harper Piziks

Mon, Jan 9, 2012 : 12:12 a.m.

Ohhhh, snapshot, you don't quite know what's going on. Several principals and vice-principals could be let go? Oh my god! The administrators in my building run their butts off all freakin' day long, and they still have more to do. You just don't know what they do. Ask to shadow one for a day and you'll see. Letting one go would be a disaster. The other stuff you bring up has nothing to do with school funding--it's union issues.

maestra27

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 10:55 p.m.

@snapshot Two things . . . #1 - You haven't addressed my question. As far as their political influence, the MEA will support whichever candidates come up with solid educational policy. Please explain how the MEA has become &quot;out of control with their political influence.&quot; I'm not following you. #2 - On an entirely different topic, you wrote, &quot;We are running out of money 'sources'. It really is simple math that seems to escape our educators and their unions since they keep asking for more money and blaming that as the problem.&quot; You are correct - it is simple math! When you divert $900 million from the School Aid Fund to give to your business buddies (without ANY accountability required from business owners) then you've manufactured a financial crisis in the public school system. Simple math. The answer is also simple! Quit stealing money from kids and pretending like their isn't any.

snapshot

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 8:59 p.m.

justmyopinion...speaking of competition, if an equally or more qualified teacher could be hired for less, while doing more, why would I want to pay an existing teacher more money? You do understand when you require more pay for teachers that ordinary property owners and taxpayers mus foot the bill so in effect you are &quot;taking&quot; money from someone else who may not be able to &quot;take&quot; money from another source. We are running out of money &quot;sources&quot;. It really is simple math that seems to escape our educators and their unions since they keep asking for more money and blaming that as the problem.

snapshot

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 8:50 p.m.

godsbreath...here's a juicy piece of fruit....how about spending less on fewer of those positions by increasing efficiency and accountability through a legitimate evaluation system? How about making it easier to terminate those that don't measure up without putting taxpayers through lengthy and expensive litigation by unions? As an apparent expert, maybe you can tell me how to make it better without asking for more money.

godsbreath64

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 5:59 p.m.

&quot; ...what do you feel the district should be spending the money on if not for teachers, bus drivers, custodians, cafeteria workers, secretaries, administrators, paraprofessionals, hall monitors, and librarians?&quot; Snyder's slush funds, Steven! Please round up to the nearest thousand.

snapshot

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 1:23 p.m.

Steven, the 85% ratio has been published over and over again....that you feel necessary to take credit for &quot;educating&quot; me is a little presumptuous, is it not. As far as dodging you I don't remember any discussions we have had and am amused at your inflated view of your influence on my thought process. I will, however, take time to address your budget distribution challenge: A bloated bureaucratic system consisting of all the positions you mentioned. Allow me to clarify: Several principles and assistant principles are not needed, paid consultants that provide no classroom value, a system that protects and neglects incompetence (union rhetoric that all teachers are perfect, denies the human condition), union refusal to and court challenges to budgetary changes to meet economic challenges that would not significantly affect the quality of life of teachers (probably less so than the rest of the working population), the continued cry for additional monies and opposition to charter schools that do so much more with so much less with dedicated teachers that union teacher disrespect, and last but not least, the insistent and continued coddling and attention given to making people so sensitive that any criticism is considered a &quot;personal&quot; attack. In affect, and to &quot;aamom&quot; in particular, get over yourself.

maestra27

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 4:18 a.m.

@a2citizen Actually, it was just me complimenting aamom (not the other way around). I'd be happy to send a compliment your way as well if you had something intelligent and articulate to add to the discussion.

maestra27

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 4:10 a.m.

@snapshot With regard to your statement, &quot;It is the selfish nature of the union influence that is under attack not the individual teachers.&quot; The individual teachers ARE the MEA. You can't attack the &quot;union&quot; without also attacking it's members. The MEA is a democratic organization where the leadership is chosen by it's members and bigger issues are decided on by a vote. The members do not &quot;follow&quot; their &quot;self-serving&quot; union . . . they ARE the union. Please keep that in mind if your intention is not to attack public educators. As far as their political influence, the MEA will support whichever candidates come up with solid educational policy. Please explain how the MEA has become &quot;out of control with their political influence.&quot; I'm not following you.

maestra27

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 3:55 a.m.

@aamom Thank you! :-)

aamom

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 3:51 a.m.

&quot;It is the selfish nature of the union influence that is under attack not the individual teachers.&quot; I think most people do honestly mean that, but having read a lot of the comments on education issues here, it seems that it usually ends up coming down to they make 100,000 and they hardly have to work. I am not a teacher, but if I were, I think I would feel like it was an attack on my profession. I would think that people don't think I'm worth my salary (which is likely closer to $50,000) and they think I'm lazy. Maybe that isn't what you mean, but that is how I would feel. And I'm sure after a day of dealing with a class full of exhausting kids, that would make me feel defeated to think people didn't think I worked hard enough to earn my salary.

Steven Harper Piziks

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 3:22 a.m.

I've asked you in other forums, snapshot (and since I gave you the 85% stat, I feel rather miffed that you've been dodging me)--what do you feel the district should be spending the money on if not for teachers, bus drivers, custodians, cafeteria workers, secretaries, administrators, paraprofessionals, hall monitors, and librarians?

J. A. Pieper

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 4:19 p.m.

To all of you who reply and make comments about parents being involved in education - yes, it's great when a parent attends PTO meetings, volunteers in the classroom, or in the school library. BUT the most important &quot;involvement&quot; is what happens at home, which is why the Asian students do so well in school. Knowing what your child has to do for homework each day and being there to support your child's efforts, that is what is most important. Parents demonstrating respect for teachers at home, will help foster that same respect in the child. Someone here wrote about a self-motivated child, someone who is self-directed having more success when they reach the university level. These are the same students who are successful all the way through their K-12 education, and this is fostered first at home, by the PARENTS! Educating children is a partnership - it takes supportive parents, and involved, committed teacher, and a child willing to learn!

Mike K

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 3:30 p.m.

Thank you Chase. I've been saying it all along. A family has to value education. One can throw all the money in the world at it, but if you don't have your parents driving their children, the money will go for naught. I see it every day for my two kids in AAPS. I will say this though; we most certainly cannot allow our public education system to erode. It is good and needs to stay that way.

godsbreath64

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 6:31 a.m.

It appears Chase's teachers didn't know the definition of, et. al, insulting. Hope those kids find out.

maestra27

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 3:47 a.m.

@aamom Amazingly articulate and spot-on response. You must have had good teachers and parents!

aamom

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 3:45 a.m.

I was taught by both my parents and my public school teachers. Most really good students are. Teachers (and parents for that matter) are there to facilitate learning, not spoon feed it into your brain. The highest achieving students self direct their learning and require that their teachers direct and monitor them. They don't require immediate attention all day long. That is also why they are the most successful in college, because they have learned how to be self directed and seek help when appropriate. If you really think you sat all through your whole K-12 career and got not one single thing from any of the probably 20 + teachers who knew you, I would suggest you weren't working very hard at learning either.

a2citizen

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 3:39 a.m.

Geez Chase, You really know how to upset the locals. Give your parents credit for teaching you how to read and the a2 righteous patrol comes down on you!!! I have my 2011 Winter Property Tax Notice right in front of me. I know it is my property tax notice because it says on it: &quot;2011 Property Tax Notice-December&quot;. (Yes, just like you, my parents taught me how to read). A full 75 percent goes to A2 public schools. Steven, you say: &quot;...That said, it would be fab-u-lous if more parents got involved in schools and education...&quot; Then you go on to tell Chase to volunteer as if it is his responsibility to teach someone elses child (and student) how to read. Why don't you volunteer?

Steven Harper Piziks

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 3:20 a.m.

Indeed, maestra27! Of course, if Chase went to school with DICK AND JANE, it means he went to school back in the 12th century, and education has undergone a bit of a shift since then. He also seems unaware that since Proposal A was rammed down our throats, property taxes no longer fund public schools--more evidence that his views are rather out of date. That said, it would be fab-u-lous if more parents got involved in schools and education. The schools and the teachers would love it! Adore it! Come on in! Volunteer in the classroom, come to conferences, visit the school, observe some lessons, help out in the library. Schools are crying for help, and will take any and all comers! Come on down, Chase. You can make a serious difference here, and your local school needs you now more than ever! (And that ain't sarcasm.)

maestra27

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 2:37 a.m.

Really? Insulting? Seems a bit far-fetched. You may not agree with something Tom Watkins wrote, but I can't find anything about his piece that would be considered &quot;insulting.&quot; Your response to Tom's opinion piece might be considered far more insulting that anything Tom wrote. As for your idea about harnessing the teaching talent of more parents . . . I would suggest you join the ranks of the public school teachers so you could teach the bottom 10% to read, all while keeping the rest of the 90% on track. Sounds like you're an expert. Plus, you'd get all the vacations that those greedy union school teachers get.

J. A. Pieper

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 4:03 p.m.

AAPS has a highly rigorous academic program, to meet the expectations of all students attending four year universities/colleges. They have cut out almost all of their Vocational Education classes, so they are not concerned about preparing &quot;workers!&quot;

godsbreath64

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 3:31 p.m.

Sounds like vintage homeschooling to me.

hank

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 12:32 p.m.

I see the culture of ignorance survives beyond expectations.

clownfish

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 3:30 p.m.

What % of teachers are unaccountable, ie: &quot;bad teachers&quot;?

braggslaw

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 3:42 a.m.

Yeah right A self serving agenda trying to preserve the mea monopoly You are either naive or a part of the mea

Steven Harper Piziks

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 3:14 a.m.

Sorry, braggslaw, but maestra27 proved you flat wrong. You've got nothing! And now you're just falling back on &quot;Nuh uh!&quot;

braggslaw

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 2:36 a.m.

Not The only thing the mea wants is guaranteed pay, benefits and job security

maestra27

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 12:33 a.m.

Sounds like you need to read up on the MEA. The MEA is not against accountability by any means. In fact, the MEA presented the &quot;A+ Agenda&quot; one year ago that highlighted Action, Accountability and Achievement. Not surprising, the Governor and lawmakers completely disregarded the agenda and launched their own agenda to destroy public education in Michigan. <a href="http://www.mea.org/press/011811_MEA_unveils_Aplus_Agenda.html" rel='nofollow'>http://www.mea.org/press/011811_MEA_unveils_Aplus_Agenda.html</a>

grye

Mon, Jan 9, 2012 : 5:18 a.m.

Wow. What angry statement. My bet is that towny doesn't realize the workload placed on a teacher. Somewhere between 30 to 40 kids in the classroom to control and teach each hour. Various levels of skill. Try to improve each student's level and capability. Must teach 5 or 6 classes. Over 150 students total for the day. Multiple classes to teach. Need to prep for each class. Come to work before students. Stay after all students leave. Meet parents after parents get off work. Grade test, homework, and all other things that are required at home during weekday evenings and on weekends. Need a Masters degree to maintain certification but then must also complete additional education to maintain certification. Starting salary $35k. Earn maybe $80k after 20 - 25 years. Wall Street MBAs earning over $100k to start. Sounds like a day at the beach? Most teachers have it tougher than you. If you think it is so easy, get the education and be a teacher. BTW, your statement that real workers work a lot harder for less pay. Let them try to manage 150 kids each day and find out how much of a cake walk it is. The days off help to maintain their sanity.

Steven Harper Piziks

Mon, Jan 9, 2012 : 12:05 a.m.

Yeah, jns. The days are short so students can study and teachers can grade exams. Those exams have to be graded by the end of the day because the semester's ending. You can't put it off--and every single student in every single class takes an exam. That's a lot of studying and a lot of grading. Additionally, the teachers have to get everything ready for second semester--unit plans, materials, daily plans, etc. etc. etc. Just because the students aren't in school doesn't mean the teachers aren't there!

clownfish

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 3:34 p.m.

&quot;3 days off to grade exams and post them. Must be nice to have these days off.&quot; How do you figure these days are &quot;off&quot;. They are used to grade papers. The kids have the days off, not the teachers.

jns131

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 2:05 p.m.

Teachers have it made here in Ann Arbor. Especially at the hi school level. I am looking at the calendar for the next 6 months. This month? One week off due to the holiday. Then one full week back. The 3rd? 4 days due to MLK holiday. The last week? Short days. Why? Exam week. I really don't see the need to shorten the school week due to exams. They did not do this for MEAPs then why do this for exam week? O and the last week of this month? 3 days off to grade exams and post them. Must be nice to have these days off. Go figure.

Steven Harper Piziks

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 3:12 a.m.

$100K a year? Gosh, wouldn't that be cool. Incidentally, towny, what do you think someone should make when he has a Master's degree, additional certification, 20 years of experience, and holds down a job in which he personally supervises the projects of over 150 people every single day?

Barry

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 1:33 a.m.

&quot;real workers&quot; &quot;normal world&quot; &quot;... every other week there is a holiday they have off ...&quot; Wow. Simply, wow.

eom

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 1:18 a.m.

This is the problem with aa.com...you can say anything - even if it's not true. The last list provided (by aa.com) of those making 100k had 4 teachers on it. Last I knew, it took way more than four teachers to teach an entire district. If you aren't going to be factual, don't write a comment. Then again, that's your point, isn't it?

snapshot

Mon, Jan 9, 2012 : 4:33 a.m.

maestra, I'm going to conclude that there are so many entities and unions involved in exerting political and judicial influence that you must be an insider to keep track of where the money is going. You win via the confusion and complexity of the &quot;education&quot; issue that apparently only an insider such as yourself can understand. First I thought I was talking about 2011 and you bring up 2009 for Ann Arbor. You also bring up that another union organization sued for the 3%...you see I don't care about that...what I care about is the money is scarce and you confuse the issue with these meaningless details that are not productive and conducive to educating the children...they only serve to generate income and benefits for employees. I do think the deal unions have cut with constitutional amendments and all the entities involved is way overboard and needs to be streamlined and simplified. I am through with debating these petty details with you and will vote no on any and all funding since you have proven to me that it is too complicated for such an ordinary citizen such as myself to keep up with you educators. So the civil service commission which consists of 3 people, two democrats and a republican over rule the legislature who represents us citizens and the state employees union has the judicial system in it's pocket. That's what I get out of the debate. Here's a question for you, where's the money coming from? And do you feel good about taking from my pocket and putting into yours?

maestra27

Mon, Jan 9, 2012 : 1:51 a.m.

@snapshot With regard to your statement, &quot;(Ann Arbor is) not on your list of schools that have taken voluntary cuts. I will agree there are school districts that are being cooperative in settling for less....Ann Arbor isn't one of them.&quot; Nothing could be further from the truth. AAPS teachers gave $3 million in concessions in 2009-2010 and continue to work with administration to control costs. Further, the list I provided was actually a list generated by clownfish (which I acknowledged). There are HUNDREDS more districts across the state where teachers have made concessions. Google it . . . it's not hard to find.

maestra27

Mon, Jan 9, 2012 : 1:30 a.m.

@snapfish While the AFT Michigan does have approximately 35,000 members, the MEA is the more prominent teachers' union in Michigan with 157,000+ members. The parent organization of the MEA is the NEA (National Education Association), so forgive me for not recognizing that &quot;Randi whatever her name is&quot; actually serves as the president of the AFT. As for the 3% healthcare contribution, the MEA and AFT chose to sit on the sidelines while the other state employees took that case to court. [These were state employees who participate in the Michigan State Employees' Retirement System, not teachers who participate in the Michigan Public School Employees Retirement System (MPSERS).] The workers sued to stop the state from taking 3% from current workers' paychecks to fund state retiree health care. In August, the Michigan Court of Appeals ruled the contribution is unconstitutional because state employee pay is fixed by the Michigan Civil Service Commission, which did not approve the contributions (which are in essence a reduction in pay). The MEA and AFT have filed their own lawsuit based on the same premise. I'm not sure how that's being &quot;uncooperative&quot; since the Michigan Court of Appeals have already found that 3% healthcare contribution to be unconstitutional. As for the incentive program offered by the Secretary of Education, Arne Duncan, you would have to provide specific information about that program to convince me on that one. With incentive programs there are usually strings attached. Please feel free to provide links or additional information. Otherwise, please provide some legitimate examples as to how the MEA has been uncooperative.

snapshot

Mon, Jan 9, 2012 : 12:01 a.m.

maestra, apparently we are not on the same page. Randi Weingarten....leads your American federation of teachers union. since she is most well know spokesperson for teachers on a national level. The MEA's idea of advocationg for improved education is much different than Arnie Duncan's who is the secretary of education. MEA went to court over a 3% increase in healthcare costs. You mentioned &quot;imagine legislators passing laws related to medical practices.....they do, why should education be different. Teachers are not &quot;expert&quot; in money management issues and budgeting the business end of education. I see no need for consultation in this regard. Teachers don't even make good administrators as evidence with AFT hiring Randi who is a labor professional as described earlier which you had difficulty understanding. Arnie Duncan, secretary of education put forth an education incentive program that Ann Arbor public schools refused to participate in while crying about budget shortfalls. They are not on your list of schools that have taken voluntary cuts. I will agree there are school districts that are being cooperative in settling for less....Ann Arbor isn't one of them. I think I've addressed your example request for number 3 with two examples of MEA challenging 3% in court Duncan's incentive program.

maestra27

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 10:16 p.m.

@snapshot - In case clownfish doesn't see your request to provide information about the voluntary cuts that were taken by teachers' unions statewide, I will repost for you what clownfish posted earlier. (Keep in mind that these are only a FEW examples of the concessions taken by hundreds of local unions across the state.) Here's what clownfish posted: Recent news articles across the state: Sept 2011- &quot;Ravenna Superintendent John Van Loon said the teachers took a 5.5-percent wage reduction and agreed to pay more for their health insurance. Several Muskegon County districts settled on a wage freeze for teachers, but a pay cut was an unusual measure.&quot; July 2011- &quot;Detroit public school teachers will take a 10 percent wage cut and pay more for health care.&quot; Aug 2011- &quot;Mount Pleasant Public School teachers and the school board approved a one-year contract, cutting teachers' salaries and saving the district $600,000.&quot; Oct 2011 - &quot;PORT HOPE — To help ensure the district stays financially stable, the Port Hope Education Association (PHEA) agreed to a 10 percent pay cut for the 2011-12 school year, which was part of the contract ratified by the teacher union and the board of education earlier this week.&quot; Aug 2011- &quot;Northville teachers and school board members have OK'd a two-year contract that has teachers taking a pay cut, two furlough days and paying 900 percent more for health care coverage.&quot; Jan 2011- &quot;RIVER ROUGE —Teachers have agreed to significant salary and health care cuts for three years, beginning with the 2011-12 school year. The salary cut is set at 15 percent, and teachers also agreed to cap the district's monthly contribution for health care coverage.&quot; Jan 2011- &quot;OAK PARK — The Board of Education has ratified an agreement that will see teachers take a 5-percent pay cut this year that will continue through next year. The two-year contract for the 200 members of the Oak Park Education Association was rat

maestra27

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 10:11 p.m.

@snapshot I'm having a difficult time making any sense out of your comments, but I'll try to clear up a few things for you. 1) I have no idea who you're referring to when you speak of &quot;Randi whatever her name is.&quot; The president of the MEA is Steven Cook who was previously a paraprofessional in Lansing Public Schools. The vice-president is Nancy Strachan, a former middle school teacher from Wayne-Westland. They were elected by fellow MEA members to serve in those capacities. 2) Educators aren't asking to be part of &quot;negotiations&quot;, they're asking to be included in the education reform process. They are the experts, of course. It's always good practice to consult experts when developing new policy and law (regardless of whether it involves education, medicine, or another professional field). 3) Please give examples when you claim, &quot;legislators have been trying to get educators to cooperate for years with no luck.&quot; The MEA (and AFT) have always advocated for quality public education. Although I disagree wholeheartedly that the MEA has been uncooperative, I would HOPE they would be uncooperative if our legislators were not working in the best interest of public education. 4) Yes, I am still baffled . . . particularly related to the venom oozing from your response. This is precisely what Tom Watkins is referring to in his piece.

snapshot

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 8:38 p.m.

maestra, thank you for telling me how I feel...I would not have know without your telling me. Legislators pass laws without consulting the medical community all the time..think drug control, prescription reporting, abortion, birth control....think Hiippa under the Patriot Act. You're welcome. Also legislators have been trying to get educators to cooperate for years with no luck...your union and Randi whatever her name is that leads your union is not an educator...she spent some time in the college she got her law degree as an adjunct professor for just a short time. Otherwise she is a labor export having got her experience in the US dept. of labor and was recruited to lead your union for what she know about labor law. So much for your educator expertise....,you want educators to be part of the negotiations when it suits you but when it comes down to the nitty gritty you hire experts who aren't educators. So maestra are you still baffled or do we need more class time? Clownfish...I did miss that the the teachers unions took any voluntary cuts that were not legislated. Fill me in on those voluntary cuts that were taken.

godsbreath64

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 6:18 p.m.

Are you expecting the counter-republicans to come clean about anything? They would be fired for heavens sake, clownfish.

clownfish

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 2:55 p.m.

A@- maybe you missed the FACT that most teachers unions in this state HAVE taken benefit cuts and wage freezes.

A2comments

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 12:26 p.m.

I think the &quot;undertone of disrespect and contempt&quot; is against the teacher's union that: - doesn't acknowledge that IT needs to change by accepting the fact that ALL groups in our state and country have to take more of the burden on themselves. - negotiates for tiered benefits so teachers get better benefits than support staff - takes a militant-like stance, not unlike auto unions in the past, instead of a cooperative stance - doesn't provide specific info to new employees about the fact that membership is NOT REQUIRED, but the state does require that all employees pay &quot;shop fees&quot;. Nor does it explain how much these fees are. Many &quot;members&quot; are really not in sync with union stances, but &quot;joined&quot; not realizing they could decline. Read the Twitter feed on their home page... <a href="http://www.a2ea.org/" rel='nofollow'>www.a2ea.org/</a>

eom

Mon, Jan 9, 2012 : 11:25 p.m.

It's not a union problem. Administration needs to do their part. You can't keep someone, even with a union, if they aren't doing the job they were hired to do. There's a process to get rid of ineffective teachers, but it needs to be used in order for it to work.

hank

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 12:26 p.m.

We this and we that who's the we unless you have a mouse in your pocket.

YpsiVeteran

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 1:36 a.m.

When the stock market was booming and local and state units of government were allowed by unions to skip their &quot;mandatory&quot; contributions to the pension plans in order to spend the money on other things, did you complain?

jcj

Mon, Jan 9, 2012 : 1:55 a.m.

The only thing as popular as teacher bashing is blaming Gov Snyder for the education woes in this State! As if there were no problems before he was elected!

clownfish

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 2:44 p.m.

The money is there, it is just not being shared among the citizens. Those that &quot;create jobs&quot; by moving their firms overseas (whirlpool for example) run down the wages in MI, thereby creating this new era of low wage private sector jobs. Now that they have run down the wages, they complain about low wages and reduced revenue for the govt. A nasty circle of rhetoric from those that are causing the problem.

Poorman

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 1:58 p.m.

I think you miss my point. Schools were said to get money from the lottery. This was why it is OK to gamble for the state. The truth was, for every dollar a school would get from the lottery, they were just getting one less from another tax revenue source. Do you have any data that shows school budgets being correlated to lottery revenue? I see no correlation. If school budgets are dependent upon the lottery they would rise and fall with lottery revenue. They do not from the data I have seen. A state dollar is a state dollar regardless of it's source. The Gov didn't steal money from the kids, he just doesn't have enough money and all groups are complaining equally. If it were only schools complaining, I would say he was unfair. He is hitting every group with cuts. Even the evil private sector businesses, which generate the tax funds for the school budget, are struggling in this state and are taxed higher than other states. What you may not see is that we are in this together and we all need to give up at least some of our wages, pensions, and benefits. This is not &quot;beating down teachers&quot;, this is a beaten down economy. We just want teachers to act like they are part of our reality. What starting private sector employee gets a pension in today's job market? Don't keep acting like your beaten down while you get pay raises, it's a bit frustrating for the rest of us to hear.

godsbreath64

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 1:56 p.m.

&quot;Sadly, the charter schools may well be all our taxes can afford. They are growing in number. The good ones will survive.&quot; Hate to break the news to you and your supposition, Poor. But lurching from the rich success of Michigan public school system so Snyder can siphon taxpayer funds for &quot;crony capitalism&quot; employing the technique they use to test the pasta in the old country is both dereliction of our youth and as well financially leaving the barn door open. These are campaign debate issues. Snyder told us to get over it. Now is the time to get over him, ASAP.

jns131

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 1:40 p.m.

California is going to have the dumbest kids on the block this year. I just read they laid off 5,000 teachers averaging over 15,000 lay offs in with the school system. The system is broken and it needs to be fixed. But sadly all we can think about is tests, tests and more tests and then blame the teachers for a broken classroom. Hate to say it, but we need to stop keeping up with the Jones.

Fire Rick

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 3:15 a.m.

You missed the point, Poorman. Michigan voters decided that money directed to the School Aid Fund (via the lottery, sales tax, etc) should go directly to K-12 education. The evil governor took that money (against the will of the voters) and used it for something other than K-12 education. &quot;The lottery has represented a growing and relatively stable source of revenue for the School Aid Fund and Michigan public schools. Even as Michigan has exhibited declining employment over the last decade, the lottery transfer to the SAF has increased from an average of $595.5 million over the FY 2000-01 through FY 2002-03 period to $738.0 million over the FY 2006-07 through FY 2008-09 period. After prizes, commissions, and operational expenses are paid, 100% of lottery proceeds are transferred to the SAF, as they have been since 1981.&quot; (<a href="http://www.senate.michigan.gov/sfa/)" rel='nofollow'>http://www.senate.michigan.gov/sfa/)</a>

Poorman

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 2:48 a.m.

Hogwash on the lottery funds. The school budget was not raised or lowered when lottery ticket sales increased or decreased. The school budget is set independent from lottery sales and always has been. This lottery was sold to us as going to the kids, but school budgets do not and never have been dependent upon it. The budget is set by overall money available and there is not enough because the economy has been down.

Poorman

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 2:36 a.m.

Sadly, the charter schools may well be all our taxes can afford. They are growing in number. The good ones will survive.

maestra27

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 2:03 a.m.

&quot;If the governor buddies are running charter schools, he must not like them either because they get less funding per student then the public schools do.&quot; Hmmm . . . and guess what teachers are paid in charter schools?? Next to nothing . . . which is why there is so much teacher turnover in charters. Charter schools are overwhelmingly staffed by younger, less experienced teachers because working in a charter school is less desirable than working in a public school. While I can appreciate the enthusiasm younger teachers bring to the job, there is something to be said about experience and mentoring relationships. There is also something to be said about building a solid staff that sticks with you year after year. Imagine how difficult it is to initiate and maintain programs when the staff turns over so quickly. Charter schools are not the answer.

Poorman

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 1:53 a.m.

If the governor buddies are running charter schools, he must not like them either because they get less funding per student then the public schools do.

maestra27

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 1:48 a.m.

There are 166 SEA members (teachers) on that list that make $80,000+ and I would bet a large sum of money that each and every one of those teachers has a master's degree and 10+ years of teaching experience. Those at the higher end probably have taken on additional responsibilities such as summer school, coaching, clubs, school improvement, etc. I would also bet that each of those teachers started around $30,000 and it took MANY years for them to reach the top of their pay scale. Why is there so much disdain for the salaries that teachers' are paid? No one questions the salaries of other educated professionals.

Poorman

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 1:43 a.m.

The governor can't just print more money. He is cutting every part of the budget. I do not see any public sector with increased funding. Do you really think education funding is not coupled to this economy. He is not an evil person, he is just not spending what he doesn't have. Reality is cold.

Poorman

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 1:37 a.m.

Make that &quot;debate forever&quot;. Darn public education. By the way, my link showed over 180 teachers in Saline making over $80,000 per &quot;year&quot;. This was two years ago before a 3% raises each year increased these amounts even more. All in an economy that was seeing a reduction in private sector wages.

maestra27

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 1:36 a.m.

@Poorman - In response to your statement, &quot;Our public education system is going out of business in this state because wages and benefits are unsustainable.&quot; One could easily argue that our public education system is going &quot;out of business&quot; because our Governor stole close to $1 billion from the School Aid Fund this year to provide tax cuts to his buddies in big business. One could also argue that our public education system is going out of business because public tax dollars are being diverted from our public schools into the charter school system. I'm not buying your argument.

YpsiVeteran

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 1:31 a.m.

I think it's the ever increasing layer upon layer of useless administrators at $80-$90-$100K plus that are the problem. The money currently being allocated to education in this state is sufficient to support teachers and the classrooms. Unfortunately, it's being syphoned off through wretched administrative fraud, mismanagement and excess. Mr. Watkins is right; demonizing teachers is like blaming drivers for the holes in the road. It's also a useful diversionary tool for politicians and school boards to deflect attention from their meddling and failure to do their jobs.

Poorman

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 1:21 a.m.

A fair wage is subjective. We could debate this for ever. What we must agree upon is a sustainable wage. In the private sector, if your costs for wages or other expenses are not affordable, you go out of business. Our public education system is going out of business in this state because wages and benefits are unsustainable. Fair or not.

maestra27

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 12:51 a.m.

Honestly, the wages of a teacher (either high or low) has absolutely nothing to do with the lack of respect shown to the education profession over the last year in Michigan. Teachers have (unfairly) been made the scapegoat of Michigan's broken education system. They have been beaten up all year and it's time that it stopped. As long as you brought it up, what exactly is a fair wage for a teacher? This is something that always perplexes me. Parents want the best (and most educated) people teaching their children, but society doesn't seem to want to pay for it. The vast majority of teachers in Michigan have a master's degree, due in part to the State's requirements to maintain a teaching certificate. People in other professions requiring a similar level of education are often paid more than teachers. Keep in mind, new Michigan teachers make an average starting salary of $35,557. It takes them YEARS to get to the top of their pay scales. The average teacher salary in Michigan is $54,739. When you see a teacher making upwards of $80,000 (on the link you provided), it's somewhat misleading. Teachers making that amount of money usually have other responsibilities such as coaching after school, teaching summer school, or they may serve as chairpersons for their departments. So I ask, what is a fair salary for a teacher?

godsbreath64

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 1:04 a.m.

What in the world are you talking about? What is your message? Most authors indicate such when Opinion is followed by a colon and said opinion. &quot;Stop beating down our teachers - they are the key to unlocking our potential as a state and nation.&quot;

Sparty

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 9:32 a.m.

We are against waist? I havent seen any fat or bulimic comments?

joe.blow

Sat, Jan 7, 2012 : 10:59 p.m.

Like being an advocate for global warming and against waist .... while living in a massive mansion blowing power like a crazy!

Steven Harper Piziks

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 3:05 a.m.

Hear hear!

justcurious

Sat, Jan 7, 2012 : 10:15 p.m.

As Reagan used to say..&quot;there you go again&quot; turning this into an anti Republican rant.

godsbreath64

Sun, Jan 8, 2012 : 6:28 p.m.

No more liberty of thought?

justcurious

Sat, Jan 7, 2012 : 10:14 p.m.

Thanks for asking the obvious question we must all have.

Chaz H

Sat, Jan 7, 2012 : 9:43 p.m.

Silly me... Clinton left in 2001, not 2003.

Chaz H

Sat, Jan 7, 2012 : 9:42 p.m.

Ha! I must have been typing my comment while you were correcting it. You may delete my comment if you like.