Running for his life ... standing our ground against the violence against blacks
![032512_Trayvon-Martin.jpg](http://www.annarbor.com/assets_c/2012/03/032512_Trayvon-Martin-thumb-590x411-106976.jpg)
Trayvon Martin, 17, was slain in the town of Sanford, Fla., on Feb. 26 in a shooting that has set off a nationwide furor over race and justice. Neighborhood crime-watch captain George Zimmerman claimed self-defense and has not been arrested, though state and federal authorities are still investigating. Since the slaying, a portrait has emerged of Martin as a laid-back young man who loved sports, was extremely close to his father, liked to crack jokes with friends and, according to a lawyer for his family, had never been in trouble with the law.
Photo courtesy of Martin Family
We have been hearing a lot this last week about a "Stand Your Ground" law as it pertains to George Zimmerman and his shooting of unarmed 17-year-old Trayvon Martin. Zimmerman claims self defense even though there is mounting evidence that he actively pursued Trayvon and there still has been no arrest.
We hear a lot of support for "Standing One's Ground" laws that are all over the country. We hear about the "right to defend oneself" under the guise of the 2nd Amendment. But I can't get the image of that poor child, walking home with a bag of Skittles and flirting with his girlfriend on the phone, suddenly "running for his life" and pleading for someone to help him.
![032512_deborah-dean-ware.jpg](http://www.annarbor.com/assets_c/2012/03/032512_deborah-dean-ware-thumb-200x198-106978.jpg)
Rev. Deborah Dean-Ware
That poor child, lying there alone and dying while people cowered in their apartments in fear. Trayvon -- the latest of the thousands over hundreds of years who have "run for their lives” because they are not white. Sadly, Trayvon Martin won't be the "last."
I am an educated, white, middle-class woman. Walking down the street, I have never been seen as "suspicious." Nobody has ever called 911 because they thought I was up to no good. I have never been the target of the "Stand Your Ground" laws - I do not represent the images in people's heads when they talk about "the right to defend themselves" with deadly force.
I move through this world with a freedom that Trayvon never experienced, but a freedom he deserved solely for being a beloved Child of God. This freedom is what God desires for all of God's children. I believe God aches for these lost ones, the ones who fall because of hatred and systemic racism.
![032512_Trayvon-Martin1.jpg](http://www.annarbor.com/assets_c/2012/03/032512_Trayvon-Martin1-thumb-300x309-106974.jpg)
Michael M. Krop Senior High School students carry signs and chant during a rally demanding justice for Trayvon Martin on Friday in Miami Gardens, Fla. Martin was slain in the town of Sanford, Fla., on Feb. 26 in a shooting that has set off a nationwide furor over race and justice. Neighborhood crime-watch captain George Zimmerman claimed self-defense and has not been arrested, though state and federal authorities are still investigating.
AP Photo/Alan Diaz
So how do we, this day, "Stand Our Ground" against the violence directed toward people of color? How do we embody the deep and abiding love that God has for all citizens of this world, for each and every child whom God claims as "beloved?" How do we begin to deconstruct the systems of our society that has institutionalized racism, sexism, heterosexism?
Well, I believe we begin by grieving together, and praying together, and crying together. We witness to the preciousness of Trayvon's life. We turn to God's word again as a reminder of God's call to justice. We acknowledge fearlessly that we haven't always lived into this call for justice.
It is time to "Stand Our Ground" and remember that it is Holy Ground.
The Rev. Deborah Dean-Ware is the new pastor of The Church of the Good Shepherd, United Church of Christ, an intentionally multi-racial, multi-cultural, open and affirming, just peace, whole earth, accessible to all congregation in Ann Arbor. You may read her blog at pastordebponders.wordpress.com/.Â
Comments
Tru2Blu76
Wed, Apr 11, 2012 : 6:20 a.m.
@ Deborah Dean-Ware, RE: "Well, I believe we begin by grieving together, and praying together, and crying together. We witness to the preciousness of Trayvon's life." -- You seem to be just getting around to picking an incident which "proves" all the litany of allegations you claim. What about the statistics showing what happens to people of any race when they DON'T HAVE the right to defend themselves and others - without having to spend a fortune on lawyers and w/o having to face prison time. Let's have sympathy for ALL victims, that seems more legitimate than your race and faith-based "thinking." If the man who killed Trayvon Martin is found guilty of any kind of homicide: then WE are all in favor of seeing him punished. That's what a united, civilized people DO.
shepard145
Sat, Mar 31, 2012 : 2:49 p.m.
Is it alarming that the professional emoters and mostly white race hustlers out there want to lynch a Hispanic man because of what they read in a national democrat leftist press famous for corruption, bias, yellow journalism and lies? Look at those who list what they think they know about this case and try to show that this "skinny boy walking down the street with some candy" was murdered for reasons you frankly make up in your heads. We know AS and JJ make their living feeding the mobs hatred and NEVER apologize to the public or their targets when the facts later show they WERE WRONG, which happens OFTEN. This is not about corruption (other than the lynch mob press), but a complex tragic series of events that require our justice system to sort out and decide. THERE IS A LARGER ISSUE HERE. This should also serve as a warning to the voters about liberal legislators, prosecutors and judges about what happens when those charged with enforcing the law fail to use common sense - are prosecuting crime victims for defending themselves rather than "running away", and states try to legislate common sense with laws like "stand your ground". Regardless of SYG, this case was made far more complex then it is by a biased hater press trying ot lynch a Hispanic man without a trial while the first black president sits in the White House. .....what does that say about race relations in the United States today? As far as obama, "never let a good crisis go to waste" comes to mind.
Stuart Brown
Fri, Mar 30, 2012 : 4:05 a.m.
New facts that have emerged: 1) Zimmerman did not show obvious signs of injury at the police station. 2) The undertaker who handled Martin's body did not see any marks on his hands that would indicate any kind of violent struggle before his death. 3) Two shots may have been fired, not one. 4) Martin may have called 911. 5) Zimmerman was standing over Martin after Martin was shot (how did he end up in this position, he says he was punched, pushed to the ground and was having his head bashed in when he fired?) 6) A Republican legislator who wrote Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law does not think it provides a safe harbor for Zimmerman. 7) Zimmerman never stood trial or entered a plea when he was charged with battery on a police officer around 2005; the charges were dropped. This dropping of charges could be an indication of significant influence by the Zimmerman family in local political circles.
aawolve
Fri, Mar 30, 2012 : 12:06 a.m.
People jumping to conclusions while complaining about people jumping to conclusions. Hilarious.
shepard145
Thu, Mar 29, 2012 : 10:37 p.m.
I don't know how old this photo is, but ANOTHER SURPRISE TODAY: Martin was 6'-2" and a very good athlete. I heard him on some leftist crank radio station described as a harmless "skinny boy". ....once again - way to do you research!
shepard145
Thu, Mar 29, 2012 : 10:34 p.m.
You support the democrat party of labor issues? ....you're like 3 decades too late for that dude. Have you checked the unemployment rate lately? Like all working Americans, you would be much better served by a thriving economy that benefits everyone. Buying pelosi and obama's class warfare nonsense will never be in the interest of anyone who works for a living - even with the special hand outs to keep you all in line. Before you vote in November, I hope you do some research about what happens to working class men when socialists like your hero obama take over a country and run it into the ground. ...I'll give you a hint - the only winners and new royalty are those entrenched in "the government" - you are less than expendable.
Terry
Thu, Mar 29, 2012 : 12:09 p.m.
Never let the FACTS get in the way of a good story, protest, or rally. Right? Maybe we should pull back the reigns a little with this 'saintly innocent victim' act. I mean this kid, while tradgic, was by no means an innocent victim. When you assult a person you lose that title. I may have handled the situation differently, but then again I may not have. To have people treat this as though this guy was out to kill this kid because he was black is nuts. Why would he have called 9-1-1 if his sole intent was murder. I'm not even sure who we are throwing the race card at in this case. Is it the shooter, the attacker, the police, or Al Sharpton?
say it plain
Thu, Mar 29, 2012 : 3:05 a.m.
Watch Zimmerman's story become even less believable, people who don't think there was a 'problem' with the situation as presented... Here, @Scylding, is probably why the lead homicide investigator didn't believe Zimmerman's story! http://news.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-video-shows-no-blood-bruises-george-194108003--abc-news-topstories.html Surveillance tape from the night Zimmerman came in to the Sanford PD for questioning. First off, note how fit and 'ready for action' Zimmerman seems...not the pudgy pathetic watchman just hoping to stop the awful awful criminals in his neighborhood we've come to envision (and I can imagine a 17 year old kid, even one with tough-guy aspirations, being worried about why he was being followed by this person!) Note too how there seems to be no blood on his clothing at all. Note too how there seems to be no swelling or bruising at all on his face. Note finally how there seems to be no cut, would, blood, *anything*, on the back of his shaven head, nothing! wow... I can now totally see why the detective had a little trouble believing Zimmerman's account of having his head slammed into the concrete, his nose broken. I can see why someone might question the need for a man who looked like this after a fight (even accounting for his getting 'cleaned up' first) to *shoot dead* the other guy...
Independent_Thinker
Thu, Apr 5, 2012 : 6:07 a.m.
I'm curios "Say It Plain". Let's make a different story and replace Zimmerman with a guy named "John" who is 40 years old 6'0" 185 of pure muscle and works out daily with killer cardio and also happens to train 4 times a week with his handgun and is a crack shot with killer reflexes. Now let's say some punk named "Elmer" (a white 17 year old dude) who is 6'5" 180 pounds decides to take a swing at John while he's walking down the street for no reason. John gets hit in the gut twice from sucker punches, but he's in great shape and really doesn't feel it, but he has no idea who Elmer is and can tell he means business. Elmer says "I'm gonna kill you man" John says' "stop" but Elmer keeps coming. As Elmer goes to throw another punch John's lighting reflexes get his gun out and he fires 3 times dropping Elmer and killing him. John calmly keeps an eye on the body of his attacker making sure the threat to his life stays down until the police arrive. It seems like in your opinion this would be all John's fault because he wasn't pudgy and weak. Because he chose to be prepared it's his fault. Or did Elmer just stupidly mess with the wrong guy? This is hypothetical and I don't mean for this to directly represent Trayvon or ZImmerman. I'm just curious as to how you would answer this question.
shutthefrtdoor
Thu, Mar 29, 2012 : 8:23 p.m.
I saw the video...and I also noticed the police officer gazing at the back of Mr Z's head intently. If there wasn't anything there he would have just glanced at it IMO.
Scylding
Thu, Mar 29, 2012 : 3:44 p.m.
@Say it plain: I apologize, I shouldn't have said that you toggled to saying that he was a "commando." Please substitute the word "imply" for "say." It was the "fit and 'ready for action'" bit that got me.
Scylding
Thu, Mar 29, 2012 : 2:41 p.m.
@say it plain: I will say what I said elsewhere, and that is that I was expecting more trauma. But this morning, I noticed something I think you missed. I missed it at first, too. Watch the video again. Expand it to full-screen, then pause it at points spanning 1:06-1:07. I am seeing a long slice and surrounding redness on the back of his head. Remember, you're watching security footage under flourescent lighting, which does weird things to colors. I really do think there is some damage to the back of his head. As far as blood on the clothes, he's wearing a red jacket and you are looking at, again, a grainy security video under poor lighting. Hardly the best conditions to be trying to spot red drops or dots. It's a little weird how you are jumping on his fitness. Before, folks favoring the "Trayvon side" were going nutzoid talking about how Zimmerman weighed 250-300 pounds and Trayvon weighed only 140. I was all over 140 with TM being 6'3"; not feasible. Now, as expected, the 140 number is giving way to 150-160. And now, in this video, we see a much smaller Zimm, probably about 170-175. These guys were fairly evenly matched, it would seem. Yet now that the weight differential is all but gone, you toggle to saying he's a commando and that that is what made him "ready for action" and dangerous. You can't have it both ways. I'd say, given Zimm's frame, he's probably 15 pounds pudgy, but otherwise, yeah, not in bad shape. But that doesn't exactly make him a commando. Also, if you listen to the 911 tape, the guy is panting after running for only a short distance. Not in super great shape. Again, I was expecting more trauma, but I'm not going to go with "nothing there," and I think you would be making a mistake if you were to stick with that. People aren't being careful enough. They aren't taking the time to listen and look. They are jumping to the conclusion they want. Don't fall in that trap.
mun
Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 12:25 a.m.
To those who say the Sanford, FL police are doing their jobs, check out this link. http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-investigator-wanted-charge-george-zimmerman-manslaughter/story?id=16011674
mun
Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 4:17 p.m.
At least they're more objective than the right wing leaning ClusterFox. As for "what makes you think they're not doing their job, " the fact remains that George Zimmerman killed Travon Martin. Also, why were they not allowing this detective to go through with the investigation.
Scylding
Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 1:19 a.m.
What is it in the article that makes you think that the Sanford police are not doing their job, mun? That is your implication, right?
shepard145
Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 12:42 a.m.
Anyone still watches abc "news" and believes a word they say?? LOL These clowns are as useless as MSNBC and CNN. The sooner they go bankrupt the better.
Jon Saalberg
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 11:31 p.m.
I'm saddened that many people in our nation our more concerned about the right to carry a firearm wherever they want, to do with as they want, than they are about ensuring every American is educated, has enough to eat, and has a roof over their head.
Scylding
Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 1:43 a.m.
I am saddened by people who want to use the ruse of imaginary rights being denied as an excuse to deny us real rights that we currently have.
shepard145
Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 12:37 a.m.
That's because some refuse to face the truth, that guns preserve the peace unless in the hands of criminals. It's a tough lesson that one pacifist after another learns the hard way when they are victimized. Criminals don't acquire guns legally, which is a common problem with criminals. Like the stand your ground law, this case has zero to do with guns.
say it plain
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 10:09 p.m.
hey all you folks posting links showing unpleasant behavior from some of those asking for justice in this case... and posting links of 'leaks' that seek to make it seem like Trayvon somehow "deserved" what he got... how about this little leak? http://gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-investigator-wanted-manslaughter-charge-151838720--abc-news-topstories.html That the *lead homicide investigator* for the Sanford Police Dept filed an afadavit the night of Martin's murder saying he wanted to charge Zimmerman with manslaughter, and that *he did not believe Zimmerman's version of events*... but, this investigator was told by higher-ups that he could not pursue this?! Wow...now *that* is a relevant revelation!! This *police investigator* seems to have tried to stand his ground against the people who wanted to dismiss Martin as just another thug who deserved what he got. He wanted to make a charge, he wanted to gather further evidence, he saw 'problems' with Zimmerman's claims. I can't wait to hear more about how he was rebuffed in this!
say it plain
Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 1:43 p.m.
yes, @Scylding, I am sad to think that the terrible non-job that Sanford police did at the crime scene and shortly afterwards will mean that key evidence needed to address Zimmerman's claims and state of mind can never be had. I am very glad at least that Martin's parents successfully fought to get outside authorities to come in and 'investigate', because there appears to be good reason to distrust the investigation Sanford police had been conducting on their own. I wonder what else will come out about Zimmerman that might speak to his 'issues' surrounding playing police-officer.
Scylding
Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 3:57 a.m.
@SIP, the investigation never stopped. The police did continue on with the investigation. And don't forget, Zimm was not released at the scene. He was taken "downtown" for questioning. I suspect he didn't even have his lawyer there, at least at first. Who knows how long it was between the time he was taken to the shop and finally released. I don't. Is there an account of this? Anyway, I think there is one thing you and I can agree on. The case is fascinating, absorbing, and tragic. I want justice, for both men. But I don't want anyone's rights to be trampled. I hope that the police did actually do a decent job and that many of these questions can be answered to most people's satisfaction. However, I don't know how likely that is to happen.
say it plain
Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 1:23 a.m.
But since when do state attorney generals' offices weigh in at the level of a local police force's *investigation*?! How could a prosecutor's office, and one fairly far removed from the case at the time, the *evening it happened*, come into play about whether an investigation can even go forward? Of course there wasn't enough evidence...none had been collected by the police at the scene, another odd fact about this case! I can't wait to hear from this homicide investigator, who made an official statement that he remained unconvinced by Zimmerman's account. Did he perhaps indicate that there may be *other* accounts out there? We know that people have come forward claiming that the police had been uninterested in hearing about what they had to say. Did he perhaps wish there would be more evidence collected that night, but he was stopped from collecting it? While I do not want to suggest a 'cover-up', I surely want to suggest that there were even *police investigators* who wanted to make a charge here, but were somehow deterred. The State Attorney General's Office, says this article, says "no comment" about the story, but I presume it will come out, as will the witnesses whose accounts of the events throw Zimmerman's into question. I don't know how common it is for an investigator to have to call the State AG's office if he feels like the person who just shot someone to death isn't giving a consistent, believable story. I don't know how it is decided at the police force level to arrest someone for manslaughter, and at what point it is decided that any further investigation is a 'violation' of the rights of the killer. We will learn all about it I suppose. But it seems just *odd* to me that the investigator had to file a statement claiming *he* wanted to continue on with an investigation because something didn't feel right about Zimmerman's claiming self-defense, but he had to back off, per the AG.
Scylding
Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 12:12 a.m.
Glad you brought the article to light, SIP. I can't help but notice, however, that you corrupted the key point of the article. You said that the officer in charge "*... did not believe Zimmerman's version of events*" (your asterisks). The actual clause was ""he was unconvinced (sic) Zimmerman's version of events." (I put a "sic" in there because there is a "by" or "of," or some such word, missing there.) Your version could mean that the officer totally disbelieved Zimmerman's whole account. The actual version could simply mean that he saw enough inconsistencies that he thought a charge of manslaughter would be feasible. By doing this, you set it up so that it would seem like the state attorney's office totally contravened the lead officer's adamant conviction that Zimmerman was guilty of manslaughter in order to let Zimmerman go, as if they told the officer to disregard condemnatory inconsistencies; in other words, you are inferring that there was a cover-up. In fact, what the state attorney's office did was say that there was not enough evidence to charge him at that time. Police officers are not lawyers. I imagine it may be fairly common for state attorneys to render decisions that differ from the opinion of officers on the scene. Any criminal lawyers want to speak to this? Anyway, as the investigation is still underway, that could change. It has been possible all along. You may get your earnest wish yet, but the upshot is, there may be nothing sinister at all in the state attorney's actions.
shepard145
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 10 p.m.
This is a good example why mob rule does not work well. - you liberals would hung Zimmerman from a tree by now if your biased hatred was not controlled. This law was set up to avoid forcing people to run away or face prosecution and new facts are coming out that indicate Zimmerman was being attacked when Zimmerman shot him. The Grand Jury will need to sort out is whether Zimmerman pursuing a stranger in his neighborhood as part of his "job", Martin's reaction was to fight and injure him and if then Zimmerman was right to kill him in defense. Nobody is blameless, which is why this is a tragedy. ...and the press and other race hustlers are just making it worse.
shutthefrtdoor
Fri, Mar 30, 2012 : 12:20 p.m.
I agree Scy...honest debate is very healthy IMO. I believe it is what our Congress and other elected officials need to embrace right now. Both sides are guilty as sin. When I hear them talk, I get reminded of PeeWee Herman..."I know you are, but what am I?". There is an old Indian tale of the porcupines that I like to share with those that "fight" in my group. One very harsh winter all the animals were dying in there dens from the subzero temperatures...the wise elder porcupine called all of his offspring together and told them that they must huddle together to survive. After a short time of huddling they broke off and went their own way only to start dying off again. The wise old one called them back and told them..."you leave your brothers side because his quills poke you, irritate you, and cause you pain. But in order to survive this hardship, we must look past those little bothers and appreciate the benefits your brothers provide". The porcupines survived to prosper. IMO...That's what we Americans need to do. Don't sweat the small stuff Scy. We probably don't disagree as much as you think. Take care my brother.
Scylding
Thu, Mar 29, 2012 : 9:56 p.m.
@shutthefrtdoor: Well, we'll be going head to head in other threads, I'm sure, but it's good to have you as an ally in some areas. Thanks for your candid response. I think, because of the rise of the coastal populations, the Democrat party didn't need the south anymore, so they threw out God, guts, and guns, to a large degree and moved hard left where the progressives wanted them to go. It's a sad thing, IMO. I just listened to an interview with Jimmy Carter by Laura Ingraham, in which it was noted that he took every state in the south during his election and that that was the last time a Democrat was able to do that. In the interview, he also indicated that he does not support abortions other than those due to rape, incest, and if the mother's life is in danger. He went on to note that he thought that Jesus would not approve of such abortions either. I cannot imagine a guy like him, or one even more in support of God, guts and guns, ever winning the Democrat nomination again. Interesting stuff. The republican party has some changes to make, too. We're trying... See you around.
shutthefrtdoor
Thu, Mar 29, 2012 : 8:25 p.m.
Sorry for the scetchy writing...I was doing three things at the same time. Where's the EDIT BUTTON!! Dang it! LOL
shutthefrtdoor
Thu, Mar 29, 2012 : 6:03 p.m.
Thanks Scy...I appreciate the kind words. Actually my views on common sense and constitutional rights date back to when I was a young serviceman. I have had different views in the past. In my position now I am able to relay those positions in my party. They have GOT to see that their positions on self defense make us look stupid. All those views do IMO is make us look unAmerican. The reason I choose to vote Democrat is jobs and labor issues. I just don't see a lot of love from Republicans when it comes to the middle class. I do see the GOP playing on the fears of guy's like me and all the while lowering our economic power by hoarding all the jobs and money. And quite frankly no one will take my rights without a fight... ; ) I've posted here before that if my party would leave the gun issue alone...they would probably get the lion share of voters support. My opinion is you don't have to be a passivist and a victim to be a Democrat. God, guts, and guns built the Democratic party...and it's high time we go back to our roots!
Scylding
Thu, Mar 29, 2012 : 3:38 p.m.
@shtthefrudoor: I don't know if you will see this, but I salute you for your independent thinking. You are at odds with almost everyone in your party, it would seem. This event does seem to be thwarting normal expectations. For example, I was not happy with how Santorum characterized Zimmerman. He said something about him having a "sick mind." Way out of line. While I can see where @shepard145 is coming from in his assessment of the Democrat platform, I again give you credit for your strong postings on this thread. In all sincerity, is this giving you second thoughts about your party, though?
shepard145
Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 11:49 p.m.
In general, this generation of democrat leaders making all the news for your party are weak kneed cowards who crave laws to protect them from the slightest offense. They are excel at law suites, calling the press to tattle on others, back stabbing their neighbors and fear the decisive moral certainties of Christianity. They claim to support women, except those they disagree with and muslim women, who have been sacrificed on the alter of political correctness. They are also stingy, offering little but free advice to those in need, preferring "the government" take money from successful members of society. Think of Rosie O'Donnell, Nancy Pelosi, Bill Maher, MIchael Moore and the bitter Dave Letterman.
shutthefrtdoor
Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 4:09 p.m.
Let's not group everyone together...I'm a Democrat and I believe Mr Z was completely justified.
mun
Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 12:39 a.m.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-investigator-wanted-charge-george-zimmerman-manslaughter/story?id=16011674
Scylding
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 8:58 p.m.
Video of a mob of protesters in the Trayvon Martin case, high school students on walk-out from Miami Beach Senior High, ransacking a Walgreens in broad daylight today. http://www.local10.com/news/Police-Trayvon-protesters-ransack-store/-/1717324/9719674/-/xctonpz/-/index.html My favorite part is where they run away through the parking lot, right past a police car, and the police do......nothing.
genetracy
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 3:14 p.m.
Just like the Duke University told the lacrosse coach when he was firing him, "This case is not about the truth."
Skyjockey43
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 9:58 p.m.
Oops that comment was supposed to be directed at say it plain
Skyjockey43
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 9:57 p.m.
Genetracy, the similarities are, or should be, glaringly obvious. In the Duke case, the University, the local (and national community), the press, the clergy, and major political figures all rushed to judge the lacrosse players guilty before all the facts had come out. I guess you don't see any of that happening here huh? In the Duke case it turned out that the lacrosse players were completely innocent of the crime all the people had already convicted them of. Maybe the same thing will happen here, and maybe it won't. But we won't know until all the facts have been revealed in a court of law.
say it plain
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 8:51 p.m.
And you've decided that these cases are analogous because....? huh?
USRepublic
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 4:47 a.m.
The Reverend D.D. Ware... And all the Trayvon Disciples... Care to stake your reputation regarding the facts of this incident now? You should all be ashamed.
say it plain
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 8:48 p.m.
We should be "ashamed" because Trayvon's mother didn't want people to make money off printing "Justice for Trayvon" or "We are all Trayvon" hoodies and bumper stickers?! The shame coming from....? Thanks for playing... the "they're all the same, *those* people...false accusers and questionable motives all..." game that seems to come from a shame-worthy impulse imo...
USRepublic
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 4:30 a.m.
Ziggy Zapzilla...he is the best.... Read it and weep..... http://mediacdn.disqus.com/uploads/mediaembed/images/237/5970/original.jpg Is anyone thinking Tawana Brawley yet? MARCH 26--The mother of Trayvon Martin has filed two applications to secure trademarks containing her late son's name, records show. Sybrina Fulton is seeking marks for the phrases "I Am Trayvon" and "Justice for Trayvon," according to filings made last week with the United States Patent and Trademark Office. In both instances, Fulton, 46, is seeking the trademarks for use on "Digital materials, namely, CDs and DVDs featuring Trayvon Martin," and other products. The March 21 USPTO applications, each of which cost $325, were filed by an Orlando, Florida law firm representing Fulton, whose first name is spelled "Sabrina" in the trademark records.
Scylding
Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 1:06 a.m.
Feiger, that's JUST who we need involved in this case... Ugh!
Salem_Resident
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 7:30 p.m.
Does Feiger have an office in Florida?
USRepublic
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 4:06 a.m.
Let's bring in the "Reverends" You know....Jesse (the man with the bastard daughter) and Al (Tawana Brawley) Sharpton....... They are soooo even keeled....and sooooo objective. I really trust their insight and spiritual consideration to the circumstances....... Can't we all get along? No....says the New Black Panther Party..... Really?
a2citizen
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 4:30 a.m.
The New Black Panther Party? To paraphrase the old black panther party, it appears as though George Zimmerman defended himself by, uh, "any means necessary". For which he should be applauded.
Salem_Resident
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 3:40 a.m.
This WAS NOT a predominantly white neighborhood. White residents comprised less than 50% so that would mean the other 50%+ included persons of color, hispanics, etc. But of course, you saw that in the media, too right? (No, I'm not surprised) http://www.examiner.com/charleston-conservative-in-charleston-sc/zimmerman-was-on-the-ground-being-punched-when-he-shot-trayvon-martin
Salem_Resident
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 3:37 a.m.
Police report shows Trayvon to be 6' tall and 160 pounds. He was at some point, not sure if recently or not, a high school football player. Zimmerman is 5'9", couch potato material at probably 210 lbs(?) One on one, my bet for the advantage would go to Trayvon. I've read a lot of different info, including Trayvon was on a 10 day school suspension for possession of marijuana. That's why he was in Sanford (north of Orlando) on a school night when he lived and attended school in Miami, several hundred miles away. The photo being shown in this article looks to be 4 or 5 years old - it portrays a much younger kid. There's another picture on the web and it shows a significantly older, larger, teen. And yes, the police report indicates Zimmerman had a laceration to the back of his head, a broken nose and grass stains, wet spot on the back of his shirt as if he had been laying on the ground. And eye witnesses identified him as being on bottom, being beaten by Trayvon when they saw the altercation. How many other details are being distorted or obscured or plainly ignored by much of the media?!? Sounds like a lot!!!
Salem_Resident
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 4:22 a.m.
Correction - more details keep showing up if you dig deeper. Tray-von was 6'3" complete with gold teeth, several tattoos including one that covered his upper arm. He was pretty active on Twitter as Slimm (@No_Limit_NI**a). The account was closed shortly after his death but there are plenty of google cached images and messages. http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/was-trayvon-martin-a-drug-dealer Want to see a picture of George Zimmerman when he's not in county orange? http://thegraph.com/2012/03/george-zimmerman-is-an-hispanic-democrat-does-spike-lee-know-teamdueprocess-does-and-we-dont-care/
Eric Ebel
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 2:19 a.m.
What is disheartening, but hardly surprising, in this discussion is that some people are determined to make excuses for what went down. I can only think that a lot of people, in their hearts, see something "reasonable" or "understandable" or "excusable" about thinking that a young African-American male walking down the street in a predominantly white neighborhood -- though if Trayvon's father lived there, it clearly wasn't all-white -- is a "suspicious circumstance" which calls for a forcible response. It's not. This has nothing to do with "stand your ground" laws. (Michigan has one.) The very best that could be said for Zimmerman under such evidence as we have now is that when he sought out a confrontation with a skinny kid who wasn't actually doing anything illegal, the kid swung on him. (I don't have reason to believe that's what happened, but let's give Zimmerman the benefit of the doubt.) That's what the law calls an "affray" -- legalese for a "fight" or "altercation." In an affray, neither guy can legitimately claim self-defense. He certainly can't claim self-defense if he shoots an unarmed, smaller guy who is pummeling him. That's the law. (I'm an attorney.) Frankly, it's time we were a bit less "understanding" of people who try to keep you-know-who out of their neighborhoods.
Scylding
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 2:17 p.m.
(Got cut off) ...doing more than that, but I am out of space.
Scylding
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 2:14 p.m.
@Eric Ebel. You say you are giving Zimmerman "the benefit of the doubt" in positing that he "sought out a confrontation." I think you are doing just the opposite. I just listened to the 911 tape one more time, and to me, it seems he just is trying to keep TM in sight so he can direct the police to him. He doesn't want him to "get away." One possible interpretation of the evidence on the tape is that Zimmerman stops running shortly after the dispatcher says "we don't need you to do that," because the wind dies down. Supporting this, Zimm then says that he doesn't want to give the dispatcher his whole home address because "I don't know where this kid is." He isn't running anymore because he lost sight of TM; he's afraid to say his address because TM could be within earshot, for all he knows. This corroborates Zimm's report to the police, in which he stated that he lost sight of TM. Not surprisingly, TM was far faster than Zimm. What happened then, none of us can presume to know. All we have is Zimm's statement, and the next eyewitness evidence we have is a witness seeing TM on top of Zimm "beating him up." I am surprised an attorney would just assume that one party "sought out a confrontation" when there are no facts to back that up, and a statement on the part of one that it isn't the case. Zimm claims that TM confronted him then decked him. Also, you suggest that it was TM's race alone that made Zimm suspicious of him. On the tape, initially, Zimm answers the dispatcher's question about TM's race by saying "he looks black." Initially, Zimm said nothing about race, saying only that he looked "real suspicious" because he was "walking about" and "looking at the houses." It's only after TM starts to walk toward Zimm that Zimm states confidently that he is a black male. You are spinning it to make Zimm out to be a racist aggressor. You are doin
Eric Ebel
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 4:34 a.m.
Michigan Compiled Laws 780.971 et seq. It may not be exactly like Florida's, but it does prevent the establishment of a "retreat rule." If Trayvon's father did not live in the neighborhood, I stand corrected. The point remains that Zimmerman apparently thought there was something wrong with an African-American kid, who wasn't breaking any law, being there. And the kid ended up dead. I presume I have that right.
USRepublic
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 3:53 a.m.
Ericebel..... Actually.....Michigan does not have a stand your ground law as Florida does....check your facts....if they matter that is... BTW...Treyvon's father did not live in the gated community...check your facts.... Thanks for your rendition of the facts.... And.... Thanks for playing....
mun
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 2:15 a.m.
Travon Martin needed to stand his ground against George Zimmerman.
1bit
Fri, Mar 30, 2012 : 1:56 a.m.
I thought, Hot Sam, that we weren't privy to the facts. You now know what Trayvon said to Zimmerman? I rest my case.
mun
Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 12:40 a.m.
The 911 dispatcher told George don't follow him. Why did he follow Trayvon then?
Hot Sam
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 10:35 p.m.
No, Travon needed to say "good evening Sir, I am staying with my dad and just heading home from the store"....at that point nothing else would have happened...
dairy6
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 1:36 a.m.
If anyone bothered to listen to the 911 tape its pretty clear that zimmerman mutters under his breath a racial slur along the lines of f-word and "coon". Also, as pointed out many times, he is being told not to pursue and and one point he says something about how, "they always get away". Now i'm just pointing out what transpires in the call but many posters are trying to say this isn't racially motivated. From the call I find that hard to believe. Im not saying what happened one way or the other but on face value the call doesnt make zimmerman look good. I'm having a hard time believeing he didnt have some thing against black people. Wether he's at fault in the end or not this whole mess seems to have been percipitated by racial differences.
dairy6
Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 3:24 a.m.
Skyjockey, maybe your right. I just listened to the tape and that's what i thought i heard him say. Never went to ccn or watched any talking heads on tv since I don't have one. Furthermore, I never said anything about who attacked who or what happened for that matter. I only commented on what I heard. As for USrepublic stick your snide comments where the sun don't shine.
Scylding
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 1:31 p.m.
Oh, I mean I agree with Skyjockey and a2citizen. USRepublic didn't say what he heard. Oops.
Scylding
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 1:29 p.m.
The CNN spot where they use their enhancing equipment and play the clip over and over is here: http://latinorebels.com/2012/03/22/cnn-runs-isolates-audio-of-controversial-zimmerman-911-and-questions-still-remain/ I love how the CNN talking head, in typical Mainstream Media fashion, says "the word we are listening for is "coon.'" No leading there! I agree with Skyjockey and US Republic, I am hearing a "p" at the front end of the word, and that word could well be "punk."
a2citizen
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 4:26 a.m.
@skyjockey. Thank-you, I had listed to the CNN audio a couple days ago and they were trying to sell the word as "coons". I wasn't certain what was said. After listening to it again a few moments ago I agree with you...the word sounds more like "punks".
USRepublic
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 3:49 a.m.
Thanks for your rendition as well DA6.... Thanks for playing.....
Skyjockey43
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 3:17 a.m.
Actually Dairy you need to check out the 911 audio that has been enhanced by CNN. What was originally reported as a coon is quite clearly the word "punk". Having said that I will now sit back while someone claims that punk is now a racist term. Additionally, you need to look at the police report that states Zimmerman sustained abrasions to the back of his head, along with a broken nose, which would back up his claim that he was attacked first. This also matches the statement of a witness at the scene who unequivocally states that Zimmerman was on the ground being pummeled while screaming for help before the shot was fired.
Skyjockey43
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 1:12 a.m.
From the Orlando Sentinel: There is about a one-minute gap during which police say they're not sure what happened. Zimmerman told them he lost sight of Trayvon and was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon approached him from the left rear, and they exchanged words. Trayvon asked Zimmerman if he had a problem. Zimmerman said no and reached for his cell phone, he told police. Trayvon then said, "Well, you do now" or something similar and punched Zimmerman in the nose, according to the account he gave police. Zimmerman fell to the ground and Trayvon got on top of him and began slamming his head into the sidewalk, he told police. Zimmerman began yelling for help. Several witnesses heard those cries, and there has been a dispute about whether they came from Zimmerman or Trayvon. Lawyers for Trayvon's family say it was Trayvon, but police say their evidence indicates it was Zimmerman. One witness, who has since talked to local television news reporters, told police he saw Zimmerman on the ground with Trayvon on top, pounding him — and was unequivocal that it was Zimmerman who was crying for help. Zimmerman then shot Trayvon once in the chest at very close range, according to authorities. When police arrived less than two minutes later, Zimmerman was bleeding from the nose, had a swollen lip and had bloody lacerations to the back of his head. Paramedics gave him first aid but he said he did not need to go to the hospital. He got medical care the next day. From the Miami Herald: In October, a school police investigator said he saw Trayvon on the school surveillance camera in an unauthorized area "hiding and being suspicious." Then he said he saw Trayvon mark up a door with "W.T.F" — an acronym for "what the f---." The officer said he found Trayvon the next day and went through his book bag in search of the graffiti marker. Instead the officer reported he found women's jewelry and a screwdriver that he described as a "burglary tool"
say it plain
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 12:26 a.m.
What if a person *is* outraged at the killings that happen in Detroit, babies shot through windows, little boys shot for being outside and thusly in the line of the constant gunplay out in neighborhoods that aren't being policed? *THEN* do they earn the right to be outraged that a man who shot a child after pursuing him because he'd decided the child was 'suspicious' (and we can argue endlessly what *that* was about) can be left to walk free, not even tested for drugs and alcohol as is normal police procedure in homicides, claiming self-defense?! If they wish that police would bring to justice the killers of these innocent people in Detroit, can they also be outraged at the facts of this case? Yes, I think there are people who are outraged about the killing of Trayvon Martin who cannot wait for the facts which the police ignored, and for the facts of what the police did and didn't do, to come out. The only problem is that it will be hard to convict the man of the murder he committed given the apparently ridiculous way this "stand your ground" law is interpreted in Florida. In Detroit, you always hear that the cops wish people would shed light on the murderers' identities. In Sanford, there were people who wanted to tell what they saw, and the cops wouldn't let them. In Sanford, there was a cell phone record, and the cops didn't even check the cell of this "John Doe" to identify him, because after all he must have been the thug that Zimmerman claimed he was. In Sanford, we know the killer, we know he *pursued* his victim, but he was allowed to walk free. It seems like in Sanford, being a bully with a gun is 'protected' status for some people. This is why policework is generally best left to police. Any shred of 'truth' to a claim of "self-defense" from the vigilante Zimmerman requires Martin to have been under the impression he was being harassed and needing to protect himself somehow. And he *was* being harassed. What a horrible
USRepublic
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 3:47 a.m.
Thanks for your account of the circumstances...... Thanks for playing
say it plain
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 12:28 a.m.
mess!
Dog Guy
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 10:08 p.m.
I thank Rev. Deborah for her eye-witness account.
Pickforddick
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 10:55 p.m.
Absolutely, what foresight.
jjc155
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 10:03 p.m.
Just throwing this out there as it has been reported on in some MSM outlets, witness statements and police reports at this time. If Trayvon was indeed on top of ZImmerman and he was slamming Zimmermans head on the concrete road/sidewalk, then trayvon was indeed employing deadly force on Zimmerman and would have been completely justified in shooting travyon. Regardless of who the initial "agressor" (so many people are making a big deal about him following when the dispatcher told him not to, he has no duty to the dispatcher to follow their orders) was you can defend yourself against deadly force. Since there has been NO information that trayvon knew that Zimmerman had a gun until the point that he was shot, then there is no claim of self defense that Trayvon could have raised to justify slamming Zimmermans head into the ground.
Stuart Brown
Thu, Mar 29, 2012 : 3:27 a.m.
Not true. You don't need to see a gun to justify lethal force; that's why one should do everything possible to avoid an engagement (as Martin was trying to do.) I once had a martial arts instructor who liked to say that there is no such thing as a fair fight because someone has to lose and the loser won't think that is fair--his point was that any kind of fight is serious business. Hands can be just as deadly as a gun. Gun experts advise people to never draw a gun unless they are prepared to kill someone in self defense, the same applies in hand-to-hand combat. Did Zimmerman shove Martin or get up in his face in a threatening way? Remember, Zimmerman had no right to detain or even interrogate Martin let alone touch him. I have no doubt that Martin was concerned about his safety from his girlfriend's description of their phone conversation just before his murder. Martin was trying to avoid Zimmerman when the girlfriend said she heard Martin say something like, "Why are you following me?" and Zimmerman saying something like, "What are you doing here?" The girlfriend says she then heard what sounded like a scuffle and then silence. "What are you doing here?" is a hostile statement since it implies Martin had no right to be in the neighborhood. Zimmerman appears so wrapped up in what he was thinking, it appears it never occurred to him how threatening he must have been to Martin. He should have answered Martin's question with an honest answer and not a hostile question. Saying, "I'm the neighborhood watch captain and I don't know you" would have been better. The 911 tapes show a lot of hatred by Zimmerman towards Martin; Zimmerman did not handle this situation well.
shutthefrtdoor
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 6:52 p.m.
Good post jjc...and to add a point. Mr Z was on duty as a neighborhood watchman...it was completely expected for him to follow Mr M if he was an unfamiliar face in the area...no matter what color he may have been.
Scylding
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 1:17 p.m.
I've been thinking about what you said here, jjc155, and I think this is a big point. In legal matters, it certainly matters who initiates a conflict, but escalation is also a very big deal. If TM really was bashing Zimm's head into the ground after decking him, I think this could prove very exculpatory for Zimm. If you listen to the 911 recordings, the screaming goes on for some time. If it was Zimm screaming "help" over and over, it demonstrates, at the very least, that he was trying to pursue a different course of action other than shooting TM. Then, Zimm says TM went for the gun. This would be another exculpatory item, if true. It's looking like the folks looking for a murder conviction will have a steep, uphill battle.
Skyjockey43
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 10 p.m.
Congratulations on adding fuel to the fire reverend. Now that we're seeing t-shirts like these, and a $10,000 dead or alive bounty has been placed on George Zimmerman's head by the new black panther party, I hope you sleep well at night knowing that you, and people like you are responsible for inciting this lynch mob mentality. http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/trayvon-martin/cracker-tshirt-759832 http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/black-panther-rage-10g-capture-trayvon-killer-article-1.1050370 http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/black-panthers-offer-10000-bounty-to-catch-trayvon-killer-7584949.html http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/25/us-usa-florida-shooting-idUSBRE82O0F820120325
Scylding
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 9:05 p.m.
And, due to the fuel on the fire, we're now getting mob-ransackings of stores. http://www.local10.com/news/Police-Trayvon-protesters-ransack-store/-/1717324/9719674/-/xctonpz/-/index.html
HBA
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 9:04 p.m.
Thank you, Rev. Dean Ware for a sensitive and insightful opinion piece. There have been some comments posted questioning why such a big deal is being made out of this story. Thought there are facts to which we are not yet privy--and hence judgement should be withheld--there are a number of facts that are known. These include the fact that no attempt was made for 3 days to locate any of Trayvon's family; Trayvon's cell phone is missing; that under "normal" circumstances, Mr. Zimmerman would have been arrested and either held or released on bail pending determination as to whether a trial should or should not be held; no proper forensic investigation was made at the time of the crime--or at the crime scene; there was no statement in the police report that Mr. Z. had a broken/bloody nose. Now, we're getting the push-back before the facts have come out: Trayvon was suspended from school for allegedly having an empty bag of marijuana and he was wearing a hoodie. What do either of those facts have to do with this case? Thank heavens there has been such outrage. Would that there were more in similar type cases--be they black or white--or any other race/religion..
shutthefrtdoor
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 6:53 p.m.
Wrong place, wrong time for a post like this. The evidence is proving different...IMO
Pickforddick
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 10:54 p.m.
Really HBA Really
Scylding
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 10:34 p.m.
@HBA: you said "there was no statement in the police report that Mr. Z ha a broken/bloody nose." Page 7 of the police report pdf, words of Timothy Smith: "While I was in such close contact with Zimmerman, I could observe that his back appeared to be wet and was covered in grass, as if he had been laying (sic) on his back on the ground. Zimmerman was also bleeding from his nose and from the back of his head."
USRepublic
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 9:09 p.m.
Thanks for your version of the "facts" Much appreciated....perhaps you might want to heed your own advice.....
David M
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 8:52 p.m.
Just wanted to say one more thing, people tend to put themselves in place of either person and ignore the facts, replacing them with assumptions based on their own personality. Black people seem to put themselves in Trayvon's place and assume the best about him and the worst about Zimmerman, white people seem to do the opposite... Either way I think there are quiet a few more details that will come out, it's a tragedy no matter what, but it seems to me that few people are will to give BOTH young men the benefit of doubt. In the end this may have just been a misunderstanding that got way out of hand because both people overreacted. oh yes, and fyi, I'm from Texas, where its currently 80 degrees, so hello people of the frosty north :)
Scylding
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 4:25 p.m.
I do not identify with either of these men, racially. It never occured to me to do so. I ignored the story, at first. I had my mind on other things. When it didn't subside, I looked into it, and it didn't take me long to see that there was a mainstream media snow job afoot. It had all the hallmarks. To begin with, the first thing you see: the photos. The photo of Trayvon, a winning photo of him as a smiling, clean-cut looking 12 or maybe 13-year-old, not as the 17-year-old he was, much bigger and, as we have come to find out, with gold all over his front teeth. Next, the photo of Zimmerman, an un-smiling mug shot from an arrest years ago (charges dropped), complete with the criminal-orange jumpsuit, taken at a time when he was allegedly heavier than he is now (according to his attorney); true to form, the MSM chose this over the later photo of him as a trimmer man with a big smile, in a shirt and tie. Then, the claims that Trayvon was "just like any other teenager" who loved innocuous things like baking cookies for young relatives whom he babysat, not a kid who, frankly, was headed toward big trouble, on whom school authorities had found a screw-driver and a watch and jewelry, and who had been caught defacing lockers with profane graffiti and carrying a pot-residued baggie. The problem is the snow-job. It forces those of us who want to see a level playing field to fight the propaganda. If TM were the one with the blood coming from his nose and the back of his head and we had witnesses saying that they saw Zimm on top of TM, beating him up, I would be writing very different posts. As it is, I think the bulk of the early media reporting was ridiculously biased against Zimm and needed serious correction and explication. I did not do this out of racial identification; I did it because I hate the MSM and the narrative of racial division that it promotes.
Leftjay
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 9:13 p.m.
I agree with this. I found myself getting defensive about Trayvon because people were discussing his background in an attempt to either victim blame or minimize what happened,. The folks defending are probably doing when people talk about his past criminal behavior- I understand. I can really only speak for myself as one black male, but I think for black people , it strikes a nerve that a young male minding his own is mistaken/labeled as a home invader, and that a hero is going to intercept him. That's where all of this discussion is coming from (in my eyes). The events after were certainly tragic, and Zimmerman will have his fair day in court- but there is a larger shift of perception that we as a nation needs to go through. The other day on his show, Bill Maher said basically that our country needs stories like these every now and again to take a look at ourselves, and I agree.
Chicagobob
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 7:32 p.m.
As some of the above comments clearly indicate, the Ann Arbor area could use more ministers like Deborah Dean-Ware.
Pickforddick
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 10:51 p.m.
Sure we do
genetracy
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 9:36 p.m.
Or better yet, the former members of the Duke lacrosse team.
Skyjockey43
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 8:10 p.m.
Absolutely. Let's have more ministers who declare a person guilty before proven so by a court of law. Perhaps you should ask Richard Jewell if we need more ministers like this.
Rebecca Mase
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 6:26 p.m.
I am proud of my pastor and my church. All violence is unacceptable, as are laws that make murder unanswerable and weapons too easily available. We all know better in our hearts.
Skyjockey43
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 10:47 p.m.
All violence is unacceptable? You really believe that? I'd love to visit your magical land of unicorns and rainbows sometime. Imagine one of your loved ones is being viciously attacked by a crazed killer. Since ALL violence is unacceptable I suppose you'd want the police to simply ask politely that the attacker cease his objectionable behavior? And I suppose you would advise Roosevelt, after the bombing of Pearl Harbor, that he should simply secure a promise from Hirohito that in the future, perhaps they could sit down to a nice beer summit rather than that nasty little unprovoked attack.
USRepublic
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 6:45 p.m.
Rebecca, It appears your pastor (and derivatively your church) find it acceptable to rush to judgement without regard to our Constitution or the laws of the state of Florida...... We all know better in our hearts......
shutthefrtdoor
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 6:37 p.m.
I'm glad you're proud of your pastor and church. I disagree with the rest of your post...vigorously.
Scylding
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 5:18 p.m.
New article from the Orlando Sentinel has new details that will shape the discussion. Generally, they do not help those who wish to condemn Zimmerman pre-emptively: http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_arizona-iced-tea-suv-unarmed-black-teenager. One key point it indicates is that the police say that it was not until Zimmerman got out of his vehicle that the police liason told him "we do not need you to" follow. It also addresses the fact that Trayvon had been suspended from school for the possession of "an empty marijuana baggie." Perhaps most damaging: "With a single punch, Trayvon Martin decked the Neighborhood Watch volunteer who eventually shot and killed the unarmed 17-year-old, then Trayvon climbed on top of George Zimmerman and slammed his head into the sidewalk several times, leaving him bloody and battered, authorities have revealed to the Orlando Sentinel. That is the account Zimmerman gave police, and much of it has been corroborated by witnesses, authorities say."
1bit
Thu, Mar 29, 2012 : 9:17 p.m.
USRepublic: I find your condescension amusing, but unhelpful. You quote me saying something I did not and thn selectively cut and paste my comment together. You have made up your mind. Again, Zimmerman is the instigator (yes, "by definition", because he was the one who started the conflict). At a certain point, we all have the right to walk down the street without an armed, self-annointed, civilian harrassing or interrogating us. I don't know, and neither do you, what was said between the two but obviously it ended poorly.
mun
Thu, Mar 29, 2012 : 12:06 a.m.
Video of George Zimmerman the night of the shooting. There is nothing on his head and nothing on his back. http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/george-zimmerman-police-surveillance-16024475
maallen
Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 3:59 p.m.
Scylding 1 0 Stuart
Scylding
Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 1:50 p.m.
@Stuart Brown: (Previous response pulled, trying again). I will put this as plainly as I can. You just said (cutting and pasting): "Your immediately preceding comment claimed you had searched wikipedia for a reference to the girlfriend's phone call to Martin just before his murder and not found a recording." No, I didn't. You are misquoting me. What I said was that I went to Wikipedia and that I (cutting and pasting) "Could not find a recording of the girlfriend's conversation w/ TM, which you said was there." I just proved that you said it was there, but like McCavity, it wasn't. Furthermore, even if I followed the footnote, there was no recording. I just proved above that you said there was a recording; there isn't. Now, I have proved that you misquoted me in trying to deny this fact. How many times must we go back and forth before you admit you made a mistake?
Stuart Brown
Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 5:58 a.m.
Scalding, the egg is still on your face! First, I had initially thought the released info was a recording and later learned it was an account of an interview with the girlfriend. Once again, your disingenuous and glib cherry picking of the facts comes through since you quote from a much older quote. Your immediately preceding comment claimed you had searched wikipedia for a reference to the girlfriend's phone call to Martin just before his murder and not found a recording. This is technically a correct statement but completely obliterates the truth that the same wikipedia article documents a release of phone records at citation #49 that also reports what the girlfriend says she heard. I would also add that given the release of the phone recordings from the terrorists involved in a large suicide attack in India, I would not be surprised if actual recordings exist of Martin's phone conversation to his girlfriend. I have responded to your so called proof that Martin was stalking Zimmerman and in fact, Zimmerman's statements to police claim exactly this. The proof that Zimmerman was not in fact chasing after Zimmerman is disputed by the statement from the girlfriend which once again shows how crucial the final phone call is. The existence of the girlfriend on the phone right at the time of Martin's murder is a key piece of evidence, one which you seem loath to acknowledge. It has also recently come to light that an officer who questioned Zimmerman the night of the murder did not believe Zimmerman and thought he should be charged with man slaughter (a charge I think is more appropriate.) Did Zimmerman set out to kill Martin? Probably not, but what there is ample evidence of is a lot of hatred by Zimmerman towards Martin. It is still an open question if he used the word "coons" or "punks" but either way it shows contempt and hatred that was over-the-top. It's clear you want Zimmerman to walk--an outcome that will offend millions.
Scylding
Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 4:33 a.m.
@Stuart Brown: Quite to the contrary, I'm seeing the egg back on ya', because in response to Rosarium's protestation that Wikipedia is not a reliable resource, you wrote: "Finally, there is in fact good source material like the voice recordings of Martin's final call to his girlfriend and 911 calls." That's a cut and paste; no changes, scout's honor. (It's above if you want to verify.) So, "who said anything about a recording?" You did. Sheesh, talk about cognitive dissonance! As far as my "need to believe that Martin got what he deserved," I don't believe that at all. I just don't think Zimmerman deserves what you are trying to give him. The question is, why are you disregarding the facts that are exculpatory for him? In at least two places, I have challenged you to back up your prosecutorial claims with facts. You have yet to do so. First, however, I would like you to explain how you think the men came into contact after Zimm lost sight of TM, as I asked just above. TM could have continued on and left the neighborhood; Zimmerman was no longer pursuing. The inescapable conclusion (in my opinion) is that TM circled back to find Zimmerman. Could it be that he was looking to give him what he thought he deserved, just like you are?
Stuart Brown
Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 2:51 a.m.
Scylding, you now have egg on your face. Who said anything about a recording? Go to reference #49 at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travon_martin . Martin's girlfriend was on the phone with him seconds before he was murdered and she is talking publicly. The cognitive dissonance on your part is revealing; you obviously need to believe that Martin got what he deserved no matter what the facts are. Good going, apparently the threat of lone nuts with guns on the loose does not bother you as long as they're not shooting you, I presume. Zimmerman has a conviction for battery on a police officer, a violent act. Martin has no convictions.
Scylding
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 5:04 p.m.
@Stuart Brown: I looked at your vaunted Wikipedia entry on the event. Could not find a recording of the girlfriend's conversation w/ TM, which you said was there. There was talk of the attack from behind in news reports, and then there was talk of Zimm having said that TM decked him in the nose, etc. If Zimm really claimed both, there would be a contradiction. Can you prove that he claimed both to the police, with good sources? There are plenty of things those of you trying to convict zimm are avoiding. Like the fact that Zimm did stop following TM after the dispatcher said they "did not need him to." He stopped because he had lost sight of him, which he indicated late in the 911 call when he said that he had "no idea where this kid is." One wonders how TM, who apparently had out-run Zimm, came back into contact with him. TM's father does NOT live in that neighborhood. If TM had out-run Zimm and was continuing home, OUT of the neighborhood, why did the two meet again? Did you ever think of that?
Stuart Brown
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 3:22 p.m.
Thugs like Zimmerman realize that the dead don't talk, but now days, the dead carry cell phones that are sometimes on when the deal goes down. In this case, Martin's girlfriend heard the deal go down; why no mention of this on this thread? Martin was doing what a responsible person should have done, avoiding a conflict with a threatening individual when that individual approached him. Zimmerman is heard saying, "what are you doing here?" after Martin asked why he was being followed. This first hand witness account shows Zimmerman lied about the circumstances leading up to the shooting to police since he claims to have been jumped from his rear while waiting for police. The boy is dead and Zimmerman has no right to a self-defense claim. Martin would be alive if Zimmerman had remained in his vehicle and let police handle the situation.
USRepublic
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 4:17 a.m.
1bit....offers a 2bit reply..... He seems to know the facts......."must have been there......" and...by "definition" assumes Zimmerman was "picking a fight". Thanks for your version of "the facts" 1bit...... 12 1/2 cents is becoming increasingly worthless as this discussion moves on to reality... Thanks for playing.....
1bit
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 11:59 p.m.
I don't think you know what the term "sucker punch" means. By everyone's account, Zimmerman approached Martin. Zimmerman is the instigator, by definition. Call me old fashioned but you don't go picking a fight unless you are ready to finish it. The only reasonable explanation is that Zimmerman felt empowered by his weapon to instigate the conflict. The blow-by-blow is somewhat inconsequential in my mind as the result was set in motion by Zimmerman's initial actions. That's not media hype - there are 911 tapes. Again, apparently Trayvon's problem here seems to be that he didn't pull a gun and kill Zimmerman. Stood his ground with something besides his fists.
shutthefrtdoor
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 7:46 p.m.
Really?... "poorer fighter" = being sucker punched and having ones head bashed against the concrete? Bottom line is that this wild fire has been lit by the sensationalist media before the truth finally leaked out. This happened a month ago people. The media had plenty of time to present the facts before they SO irresponsibly lit the match. Remember what Smokie the Bear said???
1bit
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 7:32 p.m.
Scylding: The logic you are using has internal contradictions. Your argument (with selective cut/pasting) is to imply that Zimmerman was justified in killing Trayvon because Trayvon was actually the attacker. Because Zimmerman is a poorer fighter is no justification for his actions. Moreover, with your logic, Trayvon's fault was using his fists rather than pulling a gun and killing Zimmerman outright.
Scylding
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 6:04 p.m.
@Leftjay: I cited evidence that the police provided that says that Trayvon engaged Zimmerman. You simply claimed that it was the other way around and simply said "we've all heard that." They key is: from whom? You said that Trayvon knew Zimm had the gun, but you base it on nothing. Sorry, you are not doing what I am doing. You are making stuff up and citing no reputable sources.
shutthefrtdoor
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 6:02 p.m.
I don't believe there was any "brandishing" based on the OS article. It appears that Mr. Z responded to the request of not following and was returning to his SUV when surprised from behind. If Mr. Z had his weapon drawn I highly doubt Mr. M would have allegedly punched him and jumped on top of him. The authorities will be able to tell how close the weapon was from Mr M when it was discharged.
USRepublic
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 6:01 p.m.
It's pretty hypocritical to say "I will sit back and say "let the courts decide" and then in the next sentence talk about "the facts"..... Unbelievable.....give it a rest and "let the courts decide"
Leftjay
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 5:45 p.m.
I guess it would depend on when the gun was brandished right? No muddying, just offering a rebuttal to what you put out there. I will do exactly what you are doing: putting things out there that you want the public to know about the case (that is why you are cutting/pasting), and then I will sit back and say "let the courts decide". He engaged Trayvon after being told not to follow. We all heard that. He could have turned around as soon as he got the order, but didn't. That's what I am putting out to the public, "now let the courts decide".
Scylding
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 5:40 p.m.
@Leftjay: If it is true that Martin attacked Zimmerman the way Zimmerman said he did, that could hardly be called "standing his ground," and would be a far greater escalation of the situation than simply tailing somebody. Also, you suggest that Martin knew that Zimmerman had a gun. That would mean that Zimmerman had drawn it and was brandishing it about before the two even engaged physically. I've seen nothing to suggest that that was the case. Please, quit muddying the waters with these speculations that are based on nothing but your imaginings.
Leftjay
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 5:27 p.m.
The fact that Zimmerman followed at any point after being told not to is troubling to me. If you follow me in an aggressive manor (I think Trayvon knew Zimmerman wasn't following him to ask what the score of the all-star game was), and you have a gun, I might react as what I might think is defending myself. Trayvon was standing his ground too. As for the school suspension, what people fail to realize is that when folks paint him as "innocent", they are talking about this event. Zimmerman had no knowledge of Trayvon's background. He could have been an MIT scholar on break. He wasn't planning to do a break in like Zimmerman thought. Zimmerman had no reason to engage him, just like he wouldn't have a right to engage you
USRepublic
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 4:29 p.m.
Obama said....."If I had a son....he'd look like Trayvon" Well....here is what Obama's son would look like....because it is a pic from "Tray's" MySpace. http://patdollard.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Ax26X1-600x350.jpg Time for another Beer Summit.....guess what the beer of choice will be?
Scylding
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 5:42 p.m.
If this really is Trayvon, I think we can all see why the media needed to use outdated pictures of him.
Pickforddick
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 4:44 p.m.
I think Obama spoke too soon on this....hard to believe I know.
Skyjockey43
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 4:27 p.m.
Reverend Dean-Ware, I'll be anxiously awaiting your next sermon and op ed regarding the white Mississippi State student who was just murdered. According to press reports, Witnesses have stated that three black men were the shooters . I suppose those three are also equally guilty before a court of law has brought down a legal judgment. Somehow I don't think we'll be seeing any protests, marches, campaigns of "no justice, no peace" and no student walkouts. It just doesn't fit the narrative you see.
Pickforddick
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 4:40 p.m.
We all know this will never happen, she is not going to admit she was wrong just as others who spout here won't.
USRepublic
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 4:16 p.m.
Turns out..... "Trey".....was a thug...... Here is the proof....straight from his MySpace page..... http://patdollard.com/2012/03/was-trayvon-martin-a-drug-dealing-gangbanger/
mun
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 10:30 p.m.
George Zimmerman had brushes with the law too. http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-20/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-20120320_1_robert-zimmerman-domestic-violence-online-petition
Technojunkie
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 4:07 p.m.
Relevant commentary from a firearms expert here: http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/2012/03/23/george-zimmerman-and-trayvon-martin-what-we-dont-know/ "It has been reported that the gun was recovered with a full magazine and that only the chambered round had been fired. This is a condition we associate with something preventing the gun from cycling a fresh round from the magazine into the chamber after the shot was discharged. One thing that can cause that is another man's hand wrapped around the pistol, retarding its slide mechanism..." Combine that with the reports of Zimmerman being found bloodied and with grass stains on his back, along with witness testimony, it seems likely that Martin attacked Zimmerman before knowing he was armed, Zimmerman was outmatched by the football player, they struggled over the gun and Zimmerman fired at point-blank range. If Zimmerman were "hunting" Martin it would have been at distance. We won't know until more information is released and they can't do that until the trial or possibility of a trial is over. But much like with the DC sniper, the Duke Lacrosse players and Tawana Brawley, profiling is actively encouraged when politicians feel they can assume that whitey is guilty. Oh, the heady rush of self-righteousness! This media spectacle sickens me.
Scylding
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 4:22 p.m.
Thanks for the link. This also lines up with the one witness whom I have heard actually saw the men interacting. He said Martin was on top of Zimmerman "beating him up," as I have indicated above with a link to the interview. He stated that, by the time he made it upstairs, the man in the grey sweatshirt and had been on top was now on the ground and looked like he was dead.
Arno B
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 3:50 p.m.
The news today mentioned that a young man was murdered yesterday in Detroit. Why aren't people "carrying signs and chanting" for that poor fellow?
USRepublic
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 3:31 p.m.
The kid has tattoos and belonged to a gang....you would never know it by this photo. Bad Journalism......
thecompound
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 7:58 p.m.
Zimmerman's past was trotted out and used as an argument for his guilt. The photo they used of him until recently was that of him wearing an orange jumpsuit from a 2005 arrest (charges were dropped). So it is not surprising that Martin's past is being looked at. There are just too many "i think this happened" statements floating around and then being repeated (gotta love the web) as fact. With all the investigations going on, it is prudent to wait for the facts. It just sickens me though how the MSM is manipulating information and playing with peoples emotions and sensationalizing this case. I'm glad the parents were able to get the case reopened, but once carpetbaggers like Sharpton came in, it has become nothing but a circus, and that is unfortunate.
USRepublic
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 5:56 p.m.
Lefty, Since you must have been at the scene (since you purport the facts), I'm sure you can explain away the difference between the police report and your version of events. Again....a rush to judgement on your part......it's beginning look like the early rushers are going to have egg on their face.... Tawana Brawley anyone?
Leftjay
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 5:40 p.m.
I won't call you foolish, because we are debating on the little we both know- noone's foolish. The only thing I was responding to is the intial engagement after being told not to (which we all heard), and the idea that Trayvon having tattoos or whatever affected this situation. I guess I am just confused- is that supposed to mean that people shouldn't have sympathy for him, because he had tattoos and was shot while walking home from getting candy? This wasn't gang on gang violence, this an adult shooting a young man after engaging under the false assumption that he was there to break in someone's home. All other aspects aside, that is what Zimmerman called 911 for in the first place, which we all heard. Trayvon thought he was some creeper (indicated on his phone call), and Zimmerman thought the kid was going to rob someone. Both were mistake (well), but the adult's assumption proved fatal.
USRepublic
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 5:31 p.m.
Lefty, In case you didn't notice I didn't state what the facts of the case were...only you did..... Again.....read your own posts....you seem to know precisely what took place.... A rush to judgement can make people look very stupid.
Leftjay
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 5:19 p.m.
You don't know all the facts either, or do you have access something that I don't? All I'm saying is that Trayvon wasn't banging or drugdealing when he interacted with Zimmerman. He was getting candy from the store during halftime of the NBA All-Star. Delving into his character beyond his interaction with Zimmerman (and the events leading up to it) is all that matter. Give me some non-MSM info about the case, not a profile of the victim.
USRepublic
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 4:32 p.m.
Lefty....believe what you want to believe from the MSM... Those who are critical thinkers will start with the facts.... Pictures don't lie....besides....you don't know all of the facts....you are guessing at best.
Leftjay
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 4:29 p.m.
He wasn't gangbanging or drug dealing that today, even it is true. He was walking where he belonged (in his dad's neighborhood), and was engaged by an adult with a gun who was a stranger to him. Whatever his background doesn't justify being followed (especially after 911 operator told Zimmerman not to), and subsequently shot. Zimmerman didn't know anything about gangs or drugs in relation to Martin. He simply thought Martin was there to break in someone's house, foolishly engaged him, and made a fatal mistake.
USRepublic
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 4:14 p.m.
His MySpace page.....is the ultimate source. But since you are interested read the article the MSM refuses to write... http://patdollard.com/2012/03/was-trayvon-martin-a-drug-dealing-gangbanger/
Scylding
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 3:54 p.m.
On what source are you basing this claim?
Pablo
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 2:57 p.m.
These comments somewhat mirrors a healthy discussion, although several respondents "appear" to reflect on the very racism and bigotry which continues to permeate much of this society. A writer has stated that "I like how Reverend Dean-Ware established a multi-racial, mult-cultural, etc, congregation in a place like Ann Arbor. I wonder how long her congregation would last if she moved it to Detroit?" Please note that Rev. Dean-Ware did not "establish" this 54-year-old congregation of the United Church of Christ; the Church of the Good Shepherd has a long-standing record (locally, state-wide, and nationally) of being a progressive body of worshippers of various races embracing all of God's people. As the church's Mission Statement affirms: "We, the Church of the good Shepherd, recognize God in our midst and seek to grow in the knowledge of Christ...Into God's presence we welcome all who will come, and in our faith community, we celebrate the rich diversity of God's people. ..We affirm the worth of each person and strive to nurture each other in love...We seek to become a refuge where the walls that divide us are broken down and the wounded find healing...We work to make God's realm a reality both in our church and in the larger community." As respondent Cara has stated, "...some of you will never understand that because you will never understand what it's like to be black." As a white male, I have long been so aware of that "privilege." I would invite others' attendance at Church of the Good Shepherd to share in the knowledge that our pastor has a commitment to all of God's people. Let us pray for fairness, and that justice is served.
Skyjockey43
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 8:16 p.m.
Your church leader has denounced one of God's people publicly before all the facts are in. And you want to pray for fairness? Physician, heal thyself.
Rebecca Mase
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 6:35 p.m.
thank you Paul! Rebecca
luvdady
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 2:34 p.m.
the dispatcher warns him not to follow the "suspicious" (read: black) individual. why "read " anything into it? were any of us there ? maybe he was suspicious , but that doesn't justify the end result. Trayvon and for the thousands of other unnamed black men and women who have run for their lives -- run from slave traders, run from slave owners, run from lynch mobs, run from vigilantes, run from police with batons and water hoses. how about the white folks who stood along side those men and women? I guess they don't count? lets get over the race thing,
Pickforddick
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 2:39 p.m.
Why don't we let our law and judicial system figure this out instead of all this mob mentality flaring up?
Polecat
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 12:18 p.m.
How about we let the process play out instead of jumping to conclusions. All these people making assumptions, but what about the reports that Zimmerman was beaten by this kid. Also, why do they show pictures of Martin as a young child. What about the recent pictures on Facebook? I guess those might not fit the narrative of an innocent boy.
Leftjay
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 2:27 p.m.
Whenever someone dies tragically, the positive images are shown. Kids dies of drug overdoses all the time for example. On the anti-drug ads, when the parents are talking about how heroin or ex. killed their daughter, do they ever show the "party pics"? Come, come now.
Pickforddick
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 12:05 p.m.
What a shame we can't all just be Americans, some are living so far in the past that they will never enjoy the future.
vivian
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 11:27 a.m.
One thing I noticed when I first began reading some stories on this unfortunate event a few days ago...not a single one I saw recounted in a neutral and dispassionate manner exactly what occurred. Mostly the reporting has been on the reactions and fallout. If the people who are reacting are as much in the dark as I am about what actually happened, though, (I'm sure the information is out there somewhere, but it hasn't been front and center by any means), the reactions can hardly help being premature at best --and entirely unjustified by the facts at worst. It seems to me, as I look at these comments, that many writers' having put their efforts into sensationalizing a distressing but not definitively racially motivated shooting has had a very polarizing and ultimately destructive effect. Why make a bad situation worse by using it to exacerbate tensions and whip up negative emotions?
janeqdoe
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 5:17 p.m.
It's really quite simple. You've heard the phrase "if it bleeds, it leads". The Media exists for the sole purpose of generating advertising revenue. If they cannot generate conflict and perpetuate it, there are no readers. No readers = no advertisers = no profit
McGiver
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 10:58 a.m.
If Ms Dean-Ware was our pastor, I would ask for her resignation. She apparantly has a guilt complex from just being born white.
ChelseaBob
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 10:25 a.m.
I have the same question as many readers. This is a terrible tragedy and cannot be minimized, but why is everyday black on black violence ignored? When is Al Sharpton going to come to Detroit and demand that the murderers there be brought to justice?
Pickforddick
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 2:15 p.m.
Sharpton is worried about Sharpton more than anyone else.
Matt Cooper
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 12:46 p.m.
If you knew anything about Sharpton you'd know that he has for years been working to change and eliminate black-on-black crime.
Pickforddick
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 12:07 p.m.
He won't, who would pay him?
Stuart Brown
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 8:52 a.m.
Wikipedia has some interesting facts about the case: 1) Martin was 6' 3" and 140 lbs while Zimmerman is 5'9" and 250 lbs. 2) Martin's body was taken to the morgue and listed as a John Doe with no attempt by the police to canvas the area to determine if anyone new Martin. 3) One witness to the event claims that police misrepresented her testimony as corroboration of Zimmerman's claims when in fact she claims what she saw does not corroborate Zimmerman. 4) Most suspicious of all, Zimmerman claims Martin attacked him from the rear in a sneak attack while he was returning to his vehicle to wait for police. Zimmerman's claim in light of the phone conversation Martin had with his girlfriend just before he was murdered is ludicrous and indicates a clear intent to manufacture "evidence" to justify a bogus claim of self defense. The phone call Martin had with his girlfriend ends with Martin saying in the background words to the effect of, "why are you following me?" and Zimmerman saying something to the effect of, "what are you doing here?". This is not consistent with an unprovoked attack on Zimmerman from his rear. The fact that police take such ridiculous arguments at face value speaks volumes.
maallen
Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 3:41 p.m.
KeepingitReal, Out of all the so called "facts" you state, I am only going to point out one that is not a fact because I don't have the time to list al of them. "the fact that Zimmerman was "told to stand down" by the dispatcher" Can you please provide that 911 call where zimmerman was "told to stand down?" Because the 911 tape I listened to the dispatcher said "we don't need you to do that" after zimmerman said yes when asked are you still following him.
Stuart Brown
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 2:08 a.m.
Rosarium, Wrong about Wikipedia, it's as reliable as your going to get from your armchair. It also shows sources for the claims made so one can check them out. Finally, there is in fact good source material like the voice recordings of Martin's final call to his girlfriend and 911 calls.
KeepingItReal
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 3:41 p.m.
Stuart. Your comments are reflective of the scenario that is beginning to emerge of what actually happen. The fact that a narcotic officer was the first n the scene indicates a substandard police department. The fact that Zimmerman used a derogratory phrase to refer to martin indicates hostility; the fact that Zimmerman was "told to stand down" by the dispatcher but instead choose to get out of vehicle and approached Martin indicates that he was the aggressor. The fact that the dispatch transcript is being analyzed to discern whether Zimmerman used a racial slur..with today's technology, that will be determine one way or the other.The fact that the Florida politicians who developed stand your grow legislature clearly stated that the does not apply to what happened in Zimmerman's case. All these things add up to not look good for Zimmerman. He will be eventually convicted. Its just a matter of time.
Scylding
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 12:49 p.m.
Agree with Roasrium. Wikipedia is an open resource that just about anyone with a computer can manipulate. Especially with an event as controversial and recent as this, you simply cannot trust "facts" that you read on Wikipedia. 6'3" and 140 pounds? Do the math. I was a skinny cross-country runner in high-school and even I weighed 150 at about 5'9". This guy was a football player.
Rosarium
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 11:01 a.m.
Wikipedia is not a reliable source when all the facts are not in; it's listing the same subjective opinions that the media is reporting. What's next, a link to Facebook with a # of "Likes"?
Tulip
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 5:30 a.m.
Zimmerman's claims of self-defense are absurd. If he feared for his life, he should have stayed in his car. Taking race out of the picture for a moment- An agressor should not be able to claim self defense. Zimmerman actions should never be considered acceptable. He is an adult male who started a fight with a teenage male and who he killed once the teen got the upper hand. I wouldn't ever consider taking a gun to a fight so that if the person starts to win, I could then shoot them. Putting race back in the picture- Race and hoodie is a highlited point because it seems that it's Zimmerman's perception of a person up to no good. It was also reported that Sanford police initially sent a narcotics officer instead of a homicide detective. You would also have to live in that to feel the tension. I'm very sad after reading some of the comments here. It was not up to Zimmerman to prosecute anyone. An armed person approaching an unarmed person to start a fight which results in the unarmed person being shot and killed should be the point in this case. When you take everything out that doesn't add up, and that's why the quetions surrounding the case stands.
Pickforddick
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 12:18 p.m.
Genius......No
Cara
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 2:34 a.m.
I'm a black female and I live in Ann Arbor. Ann Arbor is highly racist but of course people choose to turn the other way and think all is well. What happened to Trayvon was indeed a hate crime! But some of you will never understand that because you will never understand what it's like to be black.
Scylding
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 2:37 p.m.
@Matt Cooper: You said "The 'witness' who made this rediculous (sic) claim was in fact a long-time friend of Zimmerman who wasn't even there the night he killed Martin." Would you be talking about the man interviewed in this clip, who says he saw Martin on top of Zimmerman? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuPmu8UUbpQ And if so, you have proof that he is Zimmerman's "long-time friend"? Also, the only injury I believe the police report mentions on Trayvon's body is a gunshot wound. If Zimmerman started a physical altercation, wouldn't there be other injuries to Trayvon. Finally, a "lucky punch"? One that broke Zimmerman's nose and put a laceration on the back of his head and grass stains on the back of his shirt? Explain how that would work, please.
Skyjockey43
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 1:59 p.m.
Matt Cooper, Thank you for making my point. We don't know exactly what happened that night because there are numerous conflicting accounts, and none of us were actual at the scene, therefore NOBODY has a right to unilaterally declare that this was a cold blooded murder of an innocent youth due to racism. Only when all the FACTS are made known in a court of law and not in a court of public opinion ca a judgment be made either way. I would hope that if you or one of your loved ones were accused of a heinous crime that you would be afforded that same presumption of innocence before having the new black panther party put a bounty on your head. But since you put so much faith in what the press has to say about this case, please note that every news outlet has said that the witness I was referring to Had no connection to Zimmerman at all.
thecompound
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 1:27 p.m.
I am a white male and i do work in Detroit. Detroit is highly racist against whites but of course people choose to turn the other way and think it is okay since it is a predominantly "black" city. What happened to Trayvon was indeed unfortunate and sad. But I will never be able to understand because apparently I can only understand it when it happens to white people? There. If hers can stay up, mine certainly should be able to, despite it's inflammatory nature.
Scylding
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 1:03 p.m.
@Skyjockey: slam dunk.
Matt Cooper
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 12:43 p.m.
Sky: "For instance, the shooter sustained an injury to the BACK of his head and a broken nose." And this is proof of what? That Martin attacked Zimmerman? Hardly. Ever stop to think that maybe these were wounds inflicted by Martin as he was fighting for his life? Is it possible that maybe Martin connected with a lucky punch milliseconds before getting a .38 slug in the chest? "Additionally, a witness has reported that he was on the ground screaming for help while Trayvon Martin was on top of him. " I've listened to all of the 911 tapes of this incident and each and every person was asked by the 911 dispatcher what they could see. ALL of them said it was too dark to see anything. The "witness" who made this rediculous claim was in fact a long-time friend of Zimmerman who wasn't even there the night he killed Martin.
Pickforddick
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 12:39 p.m.
@Skyjockey43 .........Very good comments and very truthful. Thank You.
Pickforddick
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 12:25 p.m.
Please tell.....how can you claim it is a hate crime when you have no evidence other than hear say?
Skyjockey43
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 11:45 a.m.
Also Cara, where were you and "reverend" Dean-Ware when a 13 year old boy was doused in gasoline and set on fire by two black 16 year olds who were yelling "you're getting what you deserve white boy". Those types of stories don't seem to warrant the kind of outrage we're seeing here. Maybe it's because that kid never knew what it was like to be black like you. Your blinding hypocrisy would be laughable if it weren't so
Skyjockey43
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 11:28 a.m.
Well Cara, If you believe it is racist for some students to be gone preferential treatment for admission to major university because of race, or if a jr high school principal only allowing students of one race to go on a field trip while the rest of the students are left behind, then I would have to agree with you that Ann Arbor is "very racist" But before you go making your grand pronouncements that this is definitely a hate crime, you might want to get a few more facts first. For instance, the shooter sustained an injury to the BACK of his head and a broken nose. Additionally, a witness has reported that he was on the ground screaming for help while Trayvon Martin was on top of him. But then again, I suppose, based on your comments, this ridiculous opinion piece by the "reverend" Dean-Ware, and the equally ridiculous Facebook posting of our former governor wearing a hoodie, If we've never been black like you then facts don't seem to matter.
Roadman
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 1:39 a.m.
Twenty-five years ago civil rights advocates were vilifying the "Subway Vigilante" Bernhard Goetz; he was subsequently exonerated by a jury of criminal charges based upon a self-defense argument. Many of his purported "victims" wound up in prison after convictions on unrelated violent felonies. Trayvon is dead. That is a very sad fact; however Mr. Zimmerman is entitled to a presumption of innocence and a jury trial before he can be found guilty and sent to prison. The author here cites "mounting evidence" but fails to specify what proof there is that there was an active pursuit. My belief is that this event is being exploited by many who want to advance an agenda of racial division characterization in our nation. I prefer to let our justice system sift through the evidence with the benefit of cross-examination as well as having a preceding thorough law enforcement investigation before persons like Reverend Deborah Dean-Ware begin parading around in their hoodies and sneakers.
Matt Cooper
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 12:38 p.m.
"The author here cites "mounting evidence" but fails to specify what proof there is that there was an active pursuit." 1. Zimmerman got out of his vehicle and went after Martin even after being told not to by the police. 2. Martin's girlfriend specifically said that she was on the phone with him as he stated to her he was walking away while being followed by a white man (while he may well he hispanic, Zimmerman could easily be mistaken at night for being a white male). 3. Zimmerman initially spotted Martin a bit of a distance away from where the actual shooting took place (I've heard estimates of as much as two full blocks). He got there somehow, didn't he? If he wasn't pursuing Martin, how did he get there? Are you proposing that Martin went to Zimmerman's car and dragged him to where the shooting took place?
Mike
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 2:24 a.m.
Brilliant! nice comment. Prepare to be censored for non-compliant group think.
YpsiVeteran
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 12:06 a.m.
I am sorry, Ms. Dean-Ware, but until you are as outraged about black on black crime, which occurs at many, many times the frequency as this heartbreaking Florida case, you are a part of the problem, not the solution. "...I ache for Trayvon and for the thousands of other unnamed black men and women who have run for their lives -- run from slave traders, run from slave owners, run from lynch mobs, run from vigilantes, run from police with batons and water hoses. " Until it occurs to you to ache for, and spontaneously think to include in your articles, the black 9 month old baby shot in his living room and the black 12 year old girl shot through the door of her home, both at the hands of same-race killers, you, and everyone else who is silent until the suspect is white, are irrelevant. I don't agree with Stephen Henderson often, but his main point in the below is valid: http://www.freep.com/article/20120325/COL33/203250689/Stephen-Henderson-Why-isn-t-there-more-outrage-when-innocent-kids-die-in-Detroit-?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE
Left is Right
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 2:45 a.m.
My feeling as well looking at the sad news out of our Michigan cities over the past months. Seems like we're more than numb to black on black crime.
Pickforddick
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 11:35 p.m.
I love what you said earlier Stallion "MR Zimmerman is an American as was Martin and Mr Zimmerman, as all Americans, is innocent until proven guilty by a court of law, not by any newspaper article" Everyone calling for Mr Zimmerman to be jailed should remember this.
shepard145
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 9:54 p.m.
This incident had nothing to do with the "stand your ground" law but now the professional "feelers and emoters" out there have a grip on the story. The law was referenced by news hacks and picked up by others even as the sponsor of the law explained that it offered the accused killer no protection from a murder charge to anyone who would listen. Few did since his truth was not fitting well with the now hysterical narrative just as they are careful to avoid pointing out that Zimmerman is not white - another inconvenient obstacle for race hustlers. This guy had been a neighborhood watch guy for awhile, seemed to be ramping up his aggression after homes were robbed (his claim) and now armed and looking for a fight with a stranger walking the area. This is how murder works - it is not nice or rational but at the same time, every murder need not be twisted into blather about the state of the nation even as the country's first black president sits in the White House and Farrakhan spews anti Jewish hate to welcoming left wing college campuses claiming to treasure his brand of First Amendment protection.
Matt Cooper
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 12:32 p.m.
Shepard, your comment might make sense but for the fact that Zimmerman's own atty. just yesterday publicly stated that he might well use the "Stand your ground" law as a defense for his client. Call it a matter of public opinion all you want, but remember one thing: Zimmerman, after shooting Martin in the chest, immediately lay the weapon on the ground and said out loud and loud enough for several neighbors to hear it "It was self-defense!!". Not "Oh God, someone please call 911", or "Someone please get an ambulance!" No. He said it was self-defense. Seems kind of odd to me that he was more concerned with convincing the neighbors that he was acting in self-defense than he was about getting help for the young man lying dying in the grass in front of him.
Pickforddick
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 10:27 p.m.
We have them here in our community as well.........what a shame.
shepard145
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 9:32 p.m.
As a glowing white college student out for a run in my parent's subdivision at night some years ago, the police pulled over and asked me where I lived. I told them, they said have a good night and on I went, impressed that they were watching the neighborhood. I did not "feel" my "race" was an issue, no news networks were called and nobody was injured.
maallen
Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 3:15 p.m.
@1bit, Where is your evidence that this random person from the neighborhood was "looking for a fight?"
1bit
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 12:32 a.m.
You're not dead and you were stopped by police, not some random person from the neighborhood looking for a fight while carrying a gun.
Skyjockey43
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 7:58 p.m.
The good reverend should really take a lesson from the Duke lacrosse incident. The university clergy there ALSO was very quick to make assumptions and castigate three accused lacrosse players of rape. And while they were spewing accusations from the pulpit, while angry mobs were protesting in front of the players' residence, while the new black panther party was making death threats inside the courtroom at the preliminary hearing, while the district attorney was dragging their names through the mud in front of every willing tv camera he could find, the truth was slowly coming to light. Finally the attorney general of the state of North Carolina conducted his own investigation and found the three players completely innocent, the district attorney was disbarred, jailed, and facing numerous civil suits, the accuser is now facing murder charges for the death of her boyfriend, and the same clergy that was so free in their accusations before the facts came to light is now strangely silent. You might try thinking about that before you follow down that same road of declaring guilty before proven innocent. You should be ashamed of yourself, but sadly I kind of doubt you are.
Skyjockey43
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 3:38 p.m.
Enso I agree about the state of critical thinking in this country. You are the best evidence of this. Insurmountable evidence? And where are you obtaining this insurmountable evidence? From the news media? Then you agree with me about the similarities to the Duke case. While the crime was different, the same public outcry as we're seeing here was displayed in that case. I remember quite clearly the same kinds of claims of insurmountable evidence being bandied about in the comment section of the Ann Arbor news back then. People were so outraged that a bunch of rich white boys could attack an innocent black girl. That is, until DNA evidence revealed that they were completely innocent and that no rape actually took place. And yet before any of the FACTS were made known, people just like you were demanding their crucifixion. Think that situation is different? Then maybe you should head o. Over to CNN where their own audio technicians have cleaned up the 911 recordings. While you're backing up your accusations based on insurmountable evidence of a racial epithet, people with just a bit more of a grasp of critical thinking have dismantled your claim. That is unless calling someone a punk is now considered racist. Please Mr. Critical Thinking, wait until all the FACTS have been released before you join in with the New Black Panther party's lynch mob
Scylding
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 3:37 p.m.
@Enso. Please, with facts, substantiate what you wrote as follows 1) Prove that Zimmerman called Martin a racial epithet. 2) Prove that Zimmerman "chased him down." 3) Prove that Zimmerman was told "not to chase Martin down." From what I have read, a voice expert has been called in and it is inconclusive what Zimmerman may, emphasizing may, have muttered. While Zimmerman admitted that he was, at one point, following Martin (911 call), I have seen nothing conclusive that he "chased him down," which employs a running tackle or a run and grab. Zimmerman was not told "not to follow." The 911 police liason (or whatever they are called) said, "we don't need you to do that," and I have not seen anything conclusive to say that he kept following after that. Looking forward to your "critical thinking."
Enso
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 2:56 p.m.
Rape is a far different crime than this was. The evidence is insurmountable that this guy shot a teenager, after calling him a racial epithet, after chasing him down after he was told by the police not to. This guy did everything wrong and there are phone call records that prove it. This guy isn't claiming innocence like the Duke players. Your analogy breaks down on so many levels. It's not surprising it has the highest vote... ahh... the state of critical thinking in this country....
Scylding
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 12:31 a.m.
What a protracted travesty that Duke case was. What a complete sham. Amazing how quickly and eagerly so many people appear to want to go down that road again. We're well on our way. Great post, Skyjockey!
Tom Joad
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 6:18 p.m.
The "poor child" was a 6'3" 200 lb 17 year old who attacked George Zimmerman as he was walking back to his SUV, according to an eye witness who saw Martin on top of Zimmerman beating him. Zimmerman was well within his rights to defend himself using lethal force. The eye witness was the one who relayed this information to the police on the night of the incident. That is why Zimmerman was not arrested and charged. The entire complexion of the case took a dangerous turn for Mr. Zimmerman when the 911 tapes were released and a person is heard screaming in the background for help. EVERYONE assumed it was Martin begging for his life, but, in fact, it was George Zimmerman who was the one heard screaming for help as he was being beaten by Martin. The eye witness confirms the pleas for help were from Zimmerman. The entire nation jumped to conclusions and became a public lynch mob in the media calling for Zimmerman's head. Zimmerman was not the aggressor in this case. As neighborhood watch captain he had a reasonable right to confront and follow Martin for acting suspicious in his gated community. Martin was trespassing there because he jumped a fence to cut through the neighborhood.
Scylding
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 12:57 p.m.
@Salem_Resident: I'm right there with you in my skepticism concerning TM weighing 140 at 6'2" or 6'3". There's "slim" and then there's emaciated. I suppose it's possible, but not likely I should think. As Stuart Brown notes, the Miami Herald states TM's weight as 140, and I have seen other news stories repeating this (one from NPR), but none of these reports mention where they are getting their information. Really, in the end, it doesn't matter all that much. Three eye witnesses report seeing Zimmerman on the ground, two with TM on top of him, one specifically saying Trayvon was on him "beating him up," so it would appear that whatever weight differential there was, TM had overpowered Zimm and was having his way with his face and head before Zimm finally pulled the trigger.
Salem_Resident
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 4:27 a.m.
Zimmerman 250 to 300 lbs?!?! At 5'9" I seriously doubt it from seeing his picture. No, not the one is the lousy fitting county-orange jumpsuit but in his everyday clothes, smiling for the camera. As for the kid being a normal sized 17 year old, at 6'3" and 200 lbs sounds like the football player he was versus Mr. Zimmerman who appeared to be classified as a couch potato.
Stuart Brown
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 3:09 a.m.
Scylding, your dumping on Wikipedia means you are grasping at straws; the source for the weight info is the Miami Herald. Martin's nickname was "Slimm" by the way. Zimmerman could have had up to 100 lbs of mass on Martin but was about 6 inches shorter.
Scylding
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 2:51 p.m.
Not so fast, boo. @Matt Cooper: You said: "Check your facts, Tom. Trayvon was in fact 6' 3", but he wasn't anywhere close to 200 pounds. He was 140 pounds. Zimmerman, while being only 5' 9", is 240-250 pounds." Cite your sources for these "facts," please, especially for the 140 pound weight for this 6'3" football player. Was it Wikipedia, as we saw in another post here? You also said: "the only person so far that has said the screams for help were coming from Zimmerman was a long time friend of his who wasn't even present the night Martin was killed." Not true. Here is a witness who spoke to the police and told them that he saw Martin on top of Zimmerman: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuPmu8UUbpQ
boo
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 3:59 a.m.
Matt Cooper, I noticed all the experts disappeared after your last post. Passed their bed time, or you just closed their case. I'm going to go with you just closed their case. Thank you.
Matt Cooper
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 1:20 a.m.
Check your facts, Tom. Trayvon was in fact 6' 3", but he wasn't anywhere close to 200 pounds. He was 140 pounds. Zimmerman, while being only 5' 9", is 240-250 pounds. Secondly, I dont believe there were any eyewitnesses because it was too dark and the security lights weren't working. Every one of the 911 callers, when asked by the dispatcher, stated that it was just too dark to see much of anything. Can you link an article where someone claims to have been an eyewitness and seen enerything that happened? Secondly, Martin was not in fact trespassing. He was staying with his father and the father's girlfriend for some weeks and had every right to be there. And even if he didn't, Zimmerman, who was not a member of any recognized 'neighborhood watch' program (this supposed watch program was not recognized by any of the local police departments, county sheriffs nor the national Neighborhood Watch organizations, whose rules for conduct specifically forbid the carrying of ANY firearms while acting as a neighborhood watchman, CCW or not) is not a police officer, is not legally empowered to stop, question and/or detain anyone let alone initiate a physical altercation and NO citizen including Trayvon Martin has any obligation or legal duty to stop and be interrogated by this man or any other. The Neighborhood Watch participants are specifically trained to NOT engage ANY persons, but rather to "observe and report". Finally, the only person so far that has said the screams for help were coming from Zimmerman was a long time friend of his who wasn't even present the night Martin was killed.
Pickforddick
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 10:25 p.m.
Very well said Tom, too bad other members of our community are striking out without any evidence other than hear say. I do believe the truth will come out for all to see and then we can form our own opinions based on that truth.
Terry Star21
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 7:29 p.m.
PS Monica...you answered your own question - 'Media Report'. Last time I checked the Police Report was our law.
genetracy
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 7:28 p.m.
I guess there was no reason for Zimmerman to continue to cry for help when the threat was neutalized.
Terry Star21
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 7:27 p.m.
Tom, I am very proud of you for using intelligence. The police report states all you have said, and it is a shame that many people want to believe rumors and the Reverends one sided story (no disrespect intended). I wonder if how some of our community think/respond, it will some day cause an innocent person being beaten, to think twice about any kind of self defense against the aggressor ?
Monica R-W
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 7:05 p.m.
Then, why does every media report state Mr. Martin was walking from the store on a sidewalk (gated community or not), where he purchased a bag of Skittles and a Ice Tea, except your account of this situation? What does Mr. Martin being a normal size and weight 17 year old, have to do with Zimmerman at 250-300 pounds belief that he had right to shoot to kill, due to Mr. Martin stature? Why did a neighbor report to a national large number media resources that the "cries for help" fell silent after she heard the gun shot, if it was Zimmerman that was screaming?
Monica R-W
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 6:16 p.m.
As left on your weekend voice-mail box Ann Arbor.com, I look forward to speaking with a employee in your news and/or editorial department about comments that were allowed to maintain on this Opinion/Editor piece by Rev. Dean-Ware that are clearly not aligned with any facts of the case that have been reported over the last two weeks by National News Resources; and are fueled behind bring tension into this Southeastern Michigan community. Rev. Dean-Ware, again, thank you for writing this heart-felt op/ed piece.
Davidian
Thu, Mar 29, 2012 : 1:20 p.m.
It's called Free Speech and if you don't like it, I would suggest moving to North Korea, Saudi Arabia, places like that.
Scylding
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 12:05 a.m.
"[A]nd are fueled behind bring tension into this...community." Reminds me of Sharpton's "Resist we much - we must and we will much about that be committed."
Pickforddick
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 11:50 p.m.
Careful........only certain individuals are allowed to say that.
The Black Stallion3
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 11:48 p.m.
Can I leave a voice-mail?
Pickforddick
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 10:29 p.m.
I do believe I heard this speech a few years ago in Detroit.
Pickforddick
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 10:21 p.m.
I sure am glad i don't have to try and censor another individual when they disagree with my opinion, I feel sorry for those that do.
Mike
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 8:44 p.m.
Why is it that every time someone disagrees with a liberal, their first counter argument is censorship. For shame!
Terry Star21
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 7:21 p.m.
Although the heart can ignore proven police report facts and believe what it wants.
The Black Stallion3
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 5:56 p.m.
MR Zimmerman is an American as was Martin and Mr Zimmerman, as all Americans, is innocent until proven guilty by a court of law, not by any newspaper article.
genetracy
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 5:45 p.m.
I like how Reverend Dean-Ware established a multi-racial, mult-cultural, etc, congregation in a place like Ann Arbor. I wonder how long her congregation would last if she moved it to Detroit?
genetracy
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 9:31 p.m.
I would never belong to a congregation that is more political than religious. Besides, if the reverand is so intent on helping the downtrodden and victims of this racist nation, then why build her congregation in a predominantly white, upper middle class city like Ann Arbor?
Leftjay
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 2:19 p.m.
Does it bother you that she created one? Why don't you join the congregation?
Jacob Bodnar
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 5:19 p.m.
How about we stand our ground against the violence of everyone. Just a thought.
maallen
Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 3:04 p.m.
@Enso, Where is the evidence that Zimmerman chased TM down to get a better shot? However, there is evidence that Zimmerman was going back to his vehicle because he lost sight of TM. And that is when TM approached him. If TM had stayed in hiding instead of approaching Zimmerman....
Enso
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 2:58 p.m.
There's a difference between standing your ground in self defense, and chasing someone down to get a better shot.
Scylding
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 8:20 p.m.
@Jacob: From all the factual evidence I have seen, that would appear to be exactly what Zimmerman did.
Pickforddick
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 5:07 p.m.
I would certainly hope that you people do not convict someone on a news report, in this country people are innocent until Proven otherwise. This does not come from the heart but from our laws.
Scylding
Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 4:12 a.m.
@Jake C: you sidestepped the point. We have all the facts on Obamacare, we don't have them all in this case. And, for the record, I think it very much matters what we understand and think about the constitution as American citizens, and I think it is pathetic that many people know very little about it.
Jake C
Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 2:05 a.m.
@Scylding: unless you're a Supreme Court Justice, I don't think your personal opinion about what is or isn't Constitutional really matters.
Scylding
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 4:38 p.m.
@Jake C and @bobslowson: the difference being that all the facts regarding Obamacare are out on the table, since, as Nancy Pelosi said, they passed the bill "so that we can find out what is in it." We we have the 900+ pages of Obamacare and we have the constitution and the years and years of public case-law the followed it. With the TM case, there is a non-public police file, and we have not "found out what is in it."
bobslowson
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 3:19 p.m.
Good one Jake C...and maybe the most logical post I've seen
Jake C
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 5:14 p.m.
Excellent point. Will you also wait until the legal arguments regarding "Obamacare" have been settled by the Supreme Court before weighing in with your opinions on that matter? Or have you already reached your own decisions before the legal system has fully settled the matter?
Terry Star21
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 7:19 p.m.
Very nice Pick....and maybe the most logical post I've seen.
KeepingItReal
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 5:05 p.m.
Every police officer involved in this case need to fired. It is obvious they cover up this tragedy from the very start. That sorry police chief finally decided to step down temporarily because he felt that he had become too big of a distraction and the Florid prosecutor step aside because he wanted to ensure fairness. each of these men know that there role in this execution has tainted this case. It would be a slap in the face to all citizens of Florida if either of them are allowed to return to their jobs.
Davidian
Thu, Mar 29, 2012 : 1:18 p.m.
When keeping it real goes wrong....
Mike
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 8:46 p.m.
This is the kind of opinion whose credibility is proportional to its literacy.
Scylding
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 8:26 p.m.
Another rampantly speculative post. Should be reported, but it is better to let it stand to show the obvious bias and retributive arrogance of those who think they should be Zimmerman's judge, jury, and executioner. @Terry: He's not joking. His name is "KeepingItReal," after all.
Terry Star21
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 7:18 p.m.
You are joking.....right ?
Monica R-W
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 4:55 p.m.
Thank you Rev. Dean-Ware for this article. One can tell by your words, you were speaking from your heart and we need more of this, in this great country of ours!
Left is Right
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 2:30 a.m.
Actually, we need more speaking from the brain.
Mike
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 8:48 p.m.
Speaking from the heart is what gives mobs their power and their caprice.
Terry Star21
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 7:17 p.m.
It is a shame however, that the heart sometimes ignores the police reports and believes what it only wants to.
genetracy
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 4:41 p.m.
I like how Obama refers to Zimmerman as a "white Hispanic". What is a "black Hispanic"? How are we supposed to know the difference? Is there a legal definition out there somewhere?
genetracy
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 9:49 p.m.
My mistake. The mainstream media described Zimmerman as a "white Hispanic" from the beginning, no doubt using the term "white" to fan the flames of racial tension in this incident. It did help Obama though, for it allowed him not to alienate his Hispanic support in his grandstanding on the issue.
David Frye
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 3:44 p.m.
Actually, I think the commenter is confused. I checked the transcripts, and Obama never referred to Zimmerman as a "white Hispanic." For the record, here is the full transcript of Obama's comments: Q: Can you comment on the Trayvon Martin case, sir? THE PRESIDENT: Well, I'm the head of the executive branch, and the Attorney General reports to me so I've got to be careful about my statements to make sure that we're not impairing any investigation that's taking place right now. But obviously, this is a tragedy. I can only imagine what these parents are going through. And when I think about this boy, I think about my own kids. And I think every parent in America should be able to understand why it is absolutely imperative that we investigate every aspect of this, and that everybody pulls together — federal, state and local — to figure out exactly how this tragedy happened. So I'm glad that not only is the Justice Department looking into it, I understand now that the governor of the state of Florida has formed a task force to investigate what's taking place. I think all of us have to do some soul searching to figure out how does something like this happen. And that means that examine the laws and the context for what happened, as well as the specifics of the incident. But my main message is to the parents of Trayvon Martin. If I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon. And I think they are right to expect that all of us as Americans are going to take this with the seriousness it deserves, and that we're going to get to the bottom of exactly what happened. Thank you.
David Frye
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 3:05 p.m.
Black Hispanics are people of African descent who come from Latin American countries, such as Afro-Cubans, Afro-Peruvians, Afro-Brazilians and so forth. (You may also be interested to know that there are in the neighborhood of 70 million to 100 million "Hispanics" of African descent throughout Latin America, as compared with roughly 30 million African Americans in the US. Most Latin American countries do not collect census data on race, so these numbers are impressionistic.) As with all matters of race, this is not a legal definition in the modern world but a matter of personal and community identification.
genetracy
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 7:25 p.m.
It sounds like Obama is doing the identifying.
Basic Bob
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 6:14 p.m.
According to the US Census Bureau, "People who identify their origin as Hispanic or Latino may be of any race"
The Black Stallion3
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 4:43 p.m.
Hypocrisy at its best
bruceae
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 4:24 p.m.
The national media and all the liberals really love a good race crime. It's really incovienant for them that George Zimmerman is Hispanic instead of a white male. Love the picture trying to make us think it was a 12 year old shot. Where's the picture of him in his hoodie? Then you have the election implications of all of this. If George had been white Obama and Eric Holder would both have been down there getting their pictures taken with George in handcuffs. But now if they arrest a Hispanic and god forbid he turns out to be innocent there goes the Hispanic vote, the state of FL and the election.
1bit
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 6:40 p.m.
"The national media and all the liberals really love a good race crime." This sentence is ridiculous. Do you really think anyone is reveling in Trayvon's death? Put your politics down for a moment and ask yourself if you really believe that statement.
ViSHa
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 5:50 p.m.
Has the White House commented on the "dead or alive" bounty that the New Black Panthers put on Zimmerman's head?
ffej440
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 4:42 p.m.
More like the International media. On 3/15 we made a milestone, earth changing step in Laser Hydrogen Fusion which could very well change the world as we know it. Google News showed 50 news reports worldwide. The Trayvon story is about 20,000 reports and growing every hour.
genetracy
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 4:09 p.m.
Would this case have received national attention if Trayvon was killed by another young black over his Air Jordans? No. It would have been page three of the local paper. I will join the outrage band wagon when the black community becomes just as outraged at black on black violence as they are with this case.
thecompound
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 8:56 p.m.
GeneTracy, at least this is good news: http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/news/Police-make-arrest-in-Pontiac-iPad-murder/-/4714498/9717626/-/2y1dhn/-/index.html
aanative
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 2:27 p.m.
Genetracy: EXACTLY! Thank you for stating what everyone overlooks. The American 'epidemic' of senseless violence, regardless of the race of victim or shooter.
genetracy
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 5:52 p.m.
That is sad. We never heard about it because there was no outrage. The memory of that kid probably lasted as soon as the funeral was over.
ViSHa
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 5:47 p.m.
Genetracy, your post reminds me of that recent shooting of a young man in Pontiac for his iPhone and iPad. Complete waste of a life, but you may have to dig for that story, there were no marches, etc... for him.
The Black Stallion3
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 5:05 p.m.
MR Zimmerman is an American as was Martin and Mr Zimmerman, as all Americans, is innocent until proven guilty by a court of law, not by any newspaper article.
Wendy Cooper
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 3:59 p.m.
I don't understand how we can lose sight of the facts on this issue. The fact is that Zimmerman reported that Martin was running away (probably because he was being followed by a suspicious man in a high crime area), when told by police not to follow-Zimmerman ignored that-Zimmerman was armed and Trayvon was not. We only have Zimmerman's side of the story and not Trayvon's because he is dead, we don't know if Zimmerman identified himself as part of a neighborhood watch and we don't know if his injuries were due to the fact that Trayvon was fighting for his life. Think about it though, you are in a high crime area, someone is following you, your young, they are harassing you, you begin to run to get home faster, and they begin to chase after you. Zimmerman was the adult and Trayvon was a 17 year old kid! He was bigger that Trayvon. He did everything wrong: he was alone following the suspected person, got in a fight with them, and he was armed. This needs to be investigated by the feds, not the local police department that took seven weeks to arrest an officer's son who beat a black homeless man. If this isn't racial profiling it comes very, very close and it doesn't matter if Zimmerman is half-white, mexican or white.
Scylding
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 1:26 p.m.
@Stuart: using the police report or the words of a witness, or other factual evidence, substantiate your claim that Zimmerman 1) was bigger than Trayvon 2) used "aggressive tactics." Your post relies heavily on these two assertions. Watch your sources.
Stuart Brown
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 3:22 a.m.
Zimmerman seems to have been convinced that Martin was up to no good which nobody believes to be the case after the fact. Zimmerman screwed-up big time but does seem to know what he needs to say to beat a murder wrap. If Zimmerman had not used such unnecessary and aggressive tactics in the incident, no doubt Martin would still be alive. The reason this is an issue is that when black people screw up and kill somebody, no mercy is shown for the killer regardless of the circumstances. Now that some quasi authority figure is the screw-up, we are hearing a lot of chatter about how we need to feel sorry for this moron thug. The usual burn-them-at-the-stake crowd has gone AWOL here and is now demanding that we all wait for the trial. The anger from the African American community is justified.
Scylding
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 8:15 p.m.
@Wendy: Your post is absolutely riddled with speculation. You have no proof that Zimmerman was "harassing" Martin. Asking him "what are you doing here" is not harassment. You have no proof that Zimmerman chased Martin when Martin ran, IF he ran. You have no proof that Zimmerman was bigger than Martin; the pictures of Martin associated with every article I have seen are very out-dated. He was no longer the little kid of those pictures. You make it sound like Zimmerman deliberately provoked a fight; you have no proof of that. A2.com, I thought you had a policy against speculation. About 90% of Wendy's post is speculation!
The Black Stallion3
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 5:11 p.m.
Monica...I think you should leave that up to a court of law, that is what we do in this country.
Wendy Cooper
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 4:53 p.m.
Well then, ffej, if this was not a high-crime area it seems to make this killing even more senseless.
The Black Stallion3
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 4:37 p.m.
Hi Matt
ffej440
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 4:32 p.m.
Not only does Wendy not have all the facts, what she has is wrong. A gated community is NOT a high crime area amongst other incorrect statements.
Pickforddick
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 4:04 p.m.
Do you protest to have all the facts Wendy? I think you are putting together a story that needs to have facts to back it up. Let us wait until these are verified before getting in an uproar.
The Black Stallion3
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 3:48 p.m.
@Chuck Warpehoski....How in the world can you make this statement "Zimmerman's profiling and murder of Martin " And not have the evidence and proof to back it up? Also, How is it that the A2 news allows you to make this kind of statement which violates their policy? These are the kinds of statements that cause so many problems in our community.
Scylding
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 8:04 p.m.
@Stallion: I think A2.com is often very selective in its application of the "guidelines." But of course, I'm sure you already suspect this. Hit the "Report Abuse" button on Chuck and cite the violation! I'm sure that's what happened to one of my posts, now not above. Personally, though, I never report the opposition. I enjoy attacking their violations and making them look stupid more than seeing their bias and hatred disappear. Whatever will make them look worse is what makes me happier. Classic schadenfreude. Good work in your posts!
Matt Cooper
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 3:03 p.m.
I'm wondering why my last two comments were taken down. I violated no policy of a2.com. Or does a2.com just arbitrarily decide that they just won't post comments they disagree with? Or with posters whom they don't like? I'd just like some explanation.
Ann23
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 10:45 p.m.
Yup, that's it. It's all relative.
The Black Stallion3
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 4:40 p.m.
Hi Wendy
Pickforddick
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 4:23 p.m.
Wendy has the answer I bet.
Mike
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 2:38 p.m.
I support George Zimmerman. The strong evidence is that he was assaulted and suffered injuries at the hands of this young African American. Now we have a Black Muslim group calling for a reward for Zimmerman "dead or alive". It's high time so-called "Reverends" spent more time preaching the bible and less time talking about skin color. It's high the President stop calling beer summits over badly played race cards and spent more time fixing the economy.
maallen
Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 2:50 p.m.
@mun Have you not listened to the 911 tapes? The operator did not tell George to STOP following him. The operator asked if he was following him and when Zimmerman said Yes the response was "We don't need you to do that." Nowhere did the operator tell him to stop following him. Also, Zimmerman lost him and went back to his vehicle where he was approached by TM. Zimmerman did NOT chase TM down.
mun
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 9:33 p.m.
The 911 operator told George not to follow him. So you support George chasing him down?
Terry Star21
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 7:06 p.m.
I agree Mike...the police report gives evidence of Zimmerman on the ground, bleeding and fearing for his life. Martin was running only after being shot, but the story tries to indicate he was an innocent bystander running away screaming and left alone to die. There is still a lot of investigation left, but the police report and the Reverend's story are two different stories - who to believe; the officers, witnesses and investigators on site - or someone who was not.
Monica R-W
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 5:17 p.m.
What does President Obama's "beer summit" have to do with a 17 Year Old young man, who will never graduate high school, attend his senior prom or start a college semester due to his untimely death? Seriously? You're picking at very short straws. So short, the straws cease to exist.
ffej440
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 2:33 p.m.
Since the hoodie and clothing are becoming an issue here, could someone explain why our kids (All Races) want to look like criminals ? First the baggy pants- a look inspired by jail inmates with no belts to hold them up. Now the hoodie which is used by most thieves to hide thier face and hair making ID more difficult. Instead of wearing this criminal fashion ourselves perhaps we should encourage better role models than gangsters. I also think the Rev. doesn't understand how police profile. I bet if she were spotted driving in a known crack area, she would be seen as "suspicous". Middle aged white woman dressed well would be getting stopped and searched for sure.
1bit
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 6:33 p.m.
I agree with your sentiment on kids' fashion, but adults asking why kids dress and do things differently than we want? We both know the answer...
Monica R-W
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 5:19 p.m.
ffej440, have you heard, Mr. Martin had on the hootie portion of his sweat-shirt because it was RAINING outside. So, if we understand your comment correctly, Mr. Martin had no right to put the hootie of his sweat-shirt on to cover his head from the rain? Seriously?
Boo
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 2:46 p.m.
Maybe the "reverend" has never been to an area where she would be considered suspicious or the minority. Based on her one sided view of profiling it would sure seem so.
The Black Stallion3
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 2:07 p.m.
Pickforddick..........You are so right, these people are just looking for something to get upset about. Let the investigation continue and in the mean time get upset about all the murdering that is happening in the black communities close to here.
1bit
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 6:30 p.m.
Look, I'm all for "innocent until proven guilty" but I'm also for common sense. Trayvon is dead. Zimmerman killed him. Nobody is disputing that. I'm completely fine giving the justice system time to charge a crime. I am not confident that would have occurred if public attention was not brought to this situation. @Monica: We don't agree on much, but on this one I think you are spot on.
Pickforddick
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 5:46 p.m.
It is this type of speculation on your part that creates so much racial tension in this country, I suggest you wait until all the evidence is in before finding someone guilty. Please chill out and have some respect for our judicial system, Mr Zimmerman has not been charged with a crime.
The Black Stallion3
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 5:37 p.m.
My point is that Mr Zimmerman is innocent until proven guilty and all you people trying to convict him before he is even charged with a crime are causing a lot of trouble in this country because you are basing your feelings on hearsay, so your point is?
Monica R-W
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 5:26 p.m.
"These people are just looking for something to get upset about. Let the investigation continue and in the mean time get upset about all the murdering that is happening in the black communities close to here." Who are "these people" and who "in the mean time get upset about all the murdering that is happening in the black communities"? Details please.... First, this case is out of STANFORD, FL....not Southeastern Michigan, second...you mean to tell me that if this was your son or relative that was shot dead while he was carrying Skittles and Ice Tea by a grown man you wouldn't be upset and third, Florida State Government officials and the Federal Government Civil Rights Department have rightfully stepped into this case of clearly a local police department gone astray. So your point is?
Pickforddick
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 1:58 p.m.
I think you people should stop the nonsense and wait until the investigation is completed before jumping to conclusions. It may well turn out to be a different set of circumstances than what you are hearing from others. Chill out.
Pickforddick
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 5:44 p.m.
It is this type of speculation on your part that creates so much racial tension in this country, I suggest you wait until all the evidence is in before finding someone guilty. Please chill out and have some respect for our judicial system, Mr Zimmerman has not been charged with a crime.
David Briegel
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 1:54 p.m.
If Trayvon had been a white kid gunned down by a black Zimmerman in his gated community there would be very little discussion. A black Zimmerman would have had his murder weapon confiscated, he would have been arrested on probable cause and he would have had drug and alcohol screens performed. That is standard police work. Interviews of the neighbors and potential witnesses would have occured. The cell phone would have been checked and interviews of the last contacts would have been a routine function. The Samford police dept is a joke.
USRepublic
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 5:20 p.m.
Don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant.....
Hot Sam
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 11:44 p.m.
Read the police report...the weapon was confiscated...just another one of those things overlooked by those yearning for something to blame on "racist America"...
Top Cat
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 1:40 p.m.
I would expect more from a Reverend than trying this case and coming to a conclusion before all the facts are not out. People love their outrage but this is not befitting a person of the cloth.
ViSHa
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 1:26 p.m.
While I am also not endorsing the outcome of this tragedy (as Hot Sam said), I think it is poor journalism to imply that the picture above is that of a 17 year old Trayvon Martin. It has been shown elsewhere that this photo is several years old. Why not say, for example, as shown at age 13 or 14 or whatever age?
maallen
Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 2:43 p.m.
@1bit, Have you not listened to the 911 calls? When zimmerman called, he didn't know what race TM was. So please explain how he was profiling him? If you lived in a neighborhood that had crimes committed over the past year, and see someone you don't recognize in your neighborhood, wouldn't you look at that individual more closely?
1bit
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 12:42 a.m.
Hilarious post if you weren't serious.
Scylding
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 7:48 p.m.
@1bit: no, 17-year-old males are not as helpless as 13 or 14-year-old males, of any race, and not as capable of over-powering a man, jumping on his chest, and beating his face until he breaks his nose and causes lacerations to the back of his head, as Martin did to Zimmerman. In other words, it would help the reality of the case make sense and would help defuse a very charged environment before it erupts into further violence.
1bit
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 6:25 p.m.
And if he were an older black man then it would be more understandable why Zimmerman was profiling him, accosted him and the situation then led to Trayvon's death? Are 17-year-old black teenagers more scary than 13 or 14 year old black teenagers?
Boo
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 1:18 p.m.
Blows my mind that some how slavery was brought into this. Last time I checked Slaves were not owned by hispanics. It is a very sad situation that took place, but i'm still unsure how this has become a race issue alone.
boo
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 2 p.m.
Race is always an issue in this country!
jjc155
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 12:42 p.m.
please do a google search for the preliminary police reports on this, they are on the internet. If Zimmerman was wrong I say put him under the jail, but it is quite obvious when you read the reports that there is MUCH more to this story that is NOT being reported and it become quite clear why he has NOT been charged at this point. This incident is being reported in a certain way for a certain reason.
shutthefrtdoor
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 3:01 p.m.
Tragic but true Scydling.
Scylding
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 7:42 p.m.
Yes, jjc155, this case has been groomed by the media from the get-go, right down to where they show out-dated pictures of one party to make him appear small and likely to have been helpless. We've seen this before, and the sad thing is, it will do far more harm than good.
A2James
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 12:38 p.m.
This problem is much bigger than "violence against people of color". Zimmerman is a minority himself, so technically this is interminority violence, and a reflection of our society's willingness to solve problems with the barrel of a gun instead of less violent means. As a white male, when I was younger I have been subjected to violence from blacks, and have the bullet scars on the side of my head as proof (and this happened in the Ann Arbor/Ypsi area). I never once even entertained the thought that it was a racial thing. Although, I have dealt with racial discrimination and violence from Detroit police simply for being "white in a non-white area". What does that tell you? It works both ways. Poverty and socioeconomics is a much more relevant problem than simply being a minority, and it affects all of us. RIP Trayvon, regardless of what happened, he did not deserve this.
shutthefrtdoor
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 2:59 p.m.
I was going to give a thumbs up to this post as I have had the same experiences...until I read the last 5 words. I wasn't there obviously, but the new evidence with injuries to back it makes this very tough. RIP Trayvon, regardless of what happened.
Hot Sam
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 12:19 p.m.
I am by no means endorsing the outcome of this tragic situation...I don't know any more about it than anyone else... I am wondering how so many are outraged at a man appointing himself "judge and Jury", are doing just that themselves...
1bit
Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 12:06 a.m.
Hmmm... let's try this one: If Trayvon had defended himself by shooting Zimmerman, then would it have been okay? He'd be standing his ground against a possible (armed) attacker. Some on this thread are implying that because Trayvon used his fists instead of a gun that he in effect deserved to be shot by ZImmerman. Nope, the instigator is ZImmerman. That's not hype. By his own voice on the 911 tapes, Zimmerman makes clear his intention in spite of the entreaties of the 911 dispatcher.
shutthefrtdoor
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 2:55 p.m.
@ 1bit...actually "castle or stand your ground" laws remove the mandatory incarceration if there is a preponderance of evidence that the homocide was justfiable. Mr Z is still accessible if needed. I think that is where the general public is mistaken. If Mr. Z did not have defensive injuries I'd agree with you.
Scylding
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 5:56 p.m.
Right on the money, Hot Sam. You didn't have to wait long to rest your case. There is a witness now who says that he saw Martin on top of Zimmerman, punching at his face. Very interesting how everyone was so willing, almost eager, to believe that Zimmerman was simply a racist monster who ran Trayvon down and shot him in the chest, and that the police force there would be so rampantly racist as to let him go if the evidence did not reflect something very different. Great post!
Hot Sam
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 1:06 p.m.
I rest my case...
1bit
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 12:59 p.m.
Take race out of it. Zimmerman should be in jail (or on bail) pending the outcome of a criminal case in why he killed an unarmed teenager. It's that simple - most are not being judge and jury. They are simply asking that a judge and jury actually hear the case! Injustice for one is injustice for all.
David M
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 12:04 p.m.
Dear Deborah, In response to your assertion that it was Trayvon who was screaming for help, I would point out several reports that have emerged over the last week. Firstly that the 911 call shows Zimmerman considered Trayvon's behavior, not his clothing or race, as what made him "suspicious." Given that Zimmerman lived there for several years and did not know Martin, and given that it is a high crime area, I think it's reasonable to assume that someone standing in the rain may have been "casing" houses to break into. Both men had a right to be there, and it is not illegal for Zimmerman to approach Martin and ask him who he was, as reported by Trayvon's friend on the phone. Many articles floating around the internet, including yours, presume that this incident was racially motivated, but I don't see any evidence to support that. A witness reported that the man on the ground screaming for help was George Zimmerman (identified as the man in the red sweater,) and the police reported Zimmerman had a broken nose, laceration to the back of his head, and grass stains on his back. The only injuries reported for Trayvon Martin is the gunshot wound. The evidence does not seem to support your title that Trayvon was running for his life. It's possible that this was simply a misunderstanding on both men's part that got out of hand.
shutthefrtdoor
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 2:49 p.m.
I would just like to add that the young man was pronounced dead at 19:30 hrs. There was not much time elapsed between 19:17 hrs when the second officer was dispatched. It appears that things moved very quickly, to the credit of the responding officers.
Ann23
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 10:22 p.m.
Completely agree with Scylding. Some on here are an inspiration.
Scylding
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 7:38 p.m.
Two reasonable men having a good interchange, and being open-minded concerning the factual evidence cited by each other. A pleasure to behold! Thumbs up gentlemen!
Craig Lounsbury
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 2:17 p.m.
I would imagine that securing weapons would be the first priority. I don't want to seem like I'm second guessing the first officer. i hope he worked as fast as he could to do so that he might give some attention to the guy on the ground ASAP. But none the less it certainly raises some interesting points in the whole mess. I would imagine a grand jury, or some investigative authority would talk to the Fire department guy who treated Zimmerman in the back of the patrol car. Again thanks for the link. Information is a good thing.
David M
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 2:07 p.m.
Good point, it does say that the next officer arrived "shortly" but who knows how long that was. I have heard from police officers that their first priority is to secure any weapons on the scene of a crime.
Craig Lounsbury
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 1:55 p.m.
Thanks for the link. It is readable and interesting. I do find it curious, if not disturbing that the first officer on the scene, the one who noticed Zimmerman wet and bleeding never bothered to bend over and check the status of the guy who was shot. ts not clear how much time passed between him cuffing Zimmerman and the second officer arriving.
David M
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 1:40 p.m.
http://www.propublica.org/documents/item/327370-trayvon-martin-police-report This is police report, couple of pages down, kinda hard to read due to the small font.
Craig Lounsbury
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 1:21 p.m.
"and the police reported Zimmerman had a broken nose, laceration to the back of his head, and grass stains on his back." was that in the police report? I only can find that as an allegation from Zimmerman's lawyer on TV.
David M
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 11:41 a.m.
Ah and one more thing, you've probably never had the police called on you for being "suspicious," but then again how often do women of any age commit crimes such as burglary? Not nearly as often as young men. How often do you stand around in areas of high crime? Probably not often, I'd bet you live in a much different community than Zimmerman and Martin did. The real question is would George Zimmerman have still called the police if it had been a white teen doing the exact same thing and dressed in the same clothes. Given his past 911 calls I would say that he would have.
Jack
Thu, Mar 29, 2012 : 4:42 a.m.
1bit - I have friends of alll colors and ethnicities. They do not act differently among one another. Sorry. You are presenting a very limited view of humanity.
David M
Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 8:57 p.m.
@1bit- I agree with you, I believe the grand jury will convene on April 10th to determine if it goes to trial.
1bit
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 6:17 p.m.
David: I think we agree in that we don't know all the facts or can ascribe intent. My point remains that a teenager is dead and his killer has not even been charged with a crime. Although this may yet occur, I'm not sure it would have if not for public outrage. It seems the presumption of guilt was on the teenager, who couldn't defend himself from his position in the afterlife. Let Mr. Zimmerman have his day in court and allow our system of justice to have its chance.
AnnieWood
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 2:44 p.m.
This is my point. http://www.freep.com/comments/article/20120325/COL33/203250689/Stephen-Henderson-Why-isn-t-there-more-outrage-when-innocent-kids-die-in-Detroit-
David M
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 1:24 p.m.
@1bit- Well you could be entirely right, but I don't think the evidence in this specific case supports your assumption. I understand that minorities are often treated unfairly or presumptions are made about them based on their skin color, but in this case I don't think that Zimmerman made assumptions based on Martin's skin color. I don't know about the Stanford PD, but if I were a police officer I might be inclined to take Zimmerman at his word given his injuries. If they did not follow procedures like drug testing then it might have been racially motivated, or possibly they just knew him fairly well from his numerous other 911 calls and let it slide, either way they messed up, but you can't make judgement as to their intent without evidence to back it up.
1bit
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 12:56 p.m.
Your idyllic comments are amusing, David. Reality has a surprising way of being inconvenient. I do not purport to know Mr. Zimmerman's original motivations or intent, nor do I know what the police or bystanders were thinking. But, yes, I still stand by the truth that Trayvon would be alive if he were white and Zimmerman would be in jail if he were black. Are you seriously suggesting that if a black man, who was told by 911 not to follow a "suspicious individual", confronted an unarmed white teenager and subsequently killed him that the black man wouldn't be in jail? Seriously? Perhaps I'm just older and have seen too much injustice, or subtle discrimination, to see this. I don't know you - maybe you are black. But if you are not then befriend someone who is and bring them among your white friends and see how your friends will act differently (they won't be racist, they will just not act as they would to someone who is white - they'll make assumptions about the person). Or as a white person, go to a black church and see what that feels like. Trayvon was "profiled" and that's why he's dead. So was Zimmerman, and that's why he's not in jail.
David M
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 12:21 p.m.
@1bit- you are presuming that Zimmerman's actions were racially motivated, there is no evidence to support that. You are also presuming that the Stanford police's decision not to hold Zimmerman is because he is not black, which is possible, but put yourself in their place. A man who claims self defense shows evidence of being assaulted, while the other person does not (as far as we know.)
1bit
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 12:12 p.m.
Yep, and how many of those white teens are dead? The simple and horrible truths: if Trayvon were white he would still be alive and if Zimmerman were black then he would be in jail.
AnnieWood
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 11:40 a.m.
This is a sad story. But where is the outrage about the gun violence in the City of Detroit that kills babies when they are asleep on the sofa? Making this a race issues is not to the point, our bigger problem is the use of violence to solve conflicts in this society.
Scylding
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 7:33 p.m.
@SEC Fan: I would say that having a person on top of you, beating your face with his fists to the point where you have a broken nose, is a bit more than simply claiming that "I was scared for my life." An eyewitness is reporting that he saw Martin on top of Zimmerman, beating his face with his fists, and this lines up with the police report.
SEC Fan
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 6:54 p.m.
This is 100% a race issue (I'm white). Are you telling me the only thing a person in Florida has to do is say "I was scared for my life" and they get to go home after putting a bullet in someone? That's called legalized murder.
Chuck Warpehoski
Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 3:02 p.m.
Annie, do you think that if George Zimmerman were dead and Treyvon Martin were alive that Treyvon would not already be behind bars?