Q&A with Charles Woodson: 1997 Heisman trophy winner says efforts to clean up college sports won't work
Although college coaches are expected to maintain an atmosphere of collegiality, they should be unafraid to speak out for what they know is right, just as they would expect their players to do.
No less an authority than philosopher Henry Thoreau wrote, “Cast your whole vote, not a strip of paper merely, but your whole influence.” College coaches, university presidents, and other persons in positions of authority must advocate fully for their principles to set the example and the tone for an institution.
Consider the statements from respected individuals in athletics following the downfall of Ohio State Football Coach Jim Tressel, who admitted to lying about having knowledge of ineligible student-athletes, along with several other allegations currently under investigation by the NCAA.
Charles Woodson
A quote from Alabama Coach Nick Saban in USA Today reads: “I still think this is one of the finest coaches in our profession.” MSU Coach Mark Dantonio has generally declined to comment on the Tressel situation, admitting that he is a good friend, and Tressel’s nephew is an MSU assistant coach.
Which of these men used their prominent public position to denounce Jim Tressel’s systemic mistakes?
OSU President Gordon Gee joked when asked back in March if he had considered firing Tressel saying, “No, are you kidding? Let me just be very clear: I’m just hopeful the coach doesn’t dismiss me.” In an AnnArbor.com interview this past week, U-M President Mary Sue Coleman was asked what she thought of how the OSU president was handling the situation, and her response was, “I just -- I can’t speak about that.”
Why not? How are we ever going to get off this merry-go-round, if we don’t step up and set the example, even if it’s at the risk of alienating colleagues or exposing our own vulnerabilities?
Former Michigan football standout and 1997 Heisman trophy winner Charles Woodson wonders if any efforts to do so would really matter. My colleague Dean Erskine and I spoke with Woodson last month on 1290 WLBY before Tressel’s resignation.
Woodson: You know what? It’s always going to be around. You look at the amount of money that’s involved in college athletics, professional level, whatever it is, it’s money, you know, and everybody wants it. So, if you’re a kid and you’re in a position where somebody thinks you’re good enough to give you some money … chances are you’re going to take it. You don’t have a lot of money, your parents don’t have a lot of money and so you’re in a situation where you get a scholarship to a school to play a sport and somebody says, “Here, take this.” Yeah, you’ll probably take it. It’s a problem that’s been around a long time, and it’s not going to change because everybody wants money.
Dean: Well, they say maybe if you pay the players when they come in or just give them something …
Woodson: They’ll just want more money. It may work, I don’t know. But if you give me five dollars, I’ll want ten.
Lucy Ann: You’re already getting a scholarship in many cases, too.
Woodson: You’re getting a scholarship, but it doesn’t matter what walk of life you’re in, whether you’re a businessman or a professional athlete or whatever it is, if you make some money, you’re going to want some more money.
Lucy Ann: Charles, one thing that has disappointed me is that nobody wants to speak out against a fellow coach. It’s a very hard thing to do. You never know where you’re going to end up in coaching and who’s going to be hiring you. If we’re going to have this stop at some point, someone’s got to stand up.
Woodson: Coach Tressel’s a winner first and foremost, and so you say great things about people that win.
Lucy Ann: What does that say about us, though?
Woodson: If he wasn’t winning, you wouldn’t even care. They’d weed him out in a heartbeat. But if you’re the president of that school and you take a guy who has beaten Michigan the last six out of -- whatever it is -- I hate to even say the number, you don’t want to say anything bad about that guy. You know, he’s won a national championship.
Lucy Ann: Then we can’t blame the student-athletes.
Woodson: No, no -- they’re kids!
Lucy Ann: And look at the example that’s being set.
Woodson: They’re kids! I mean just look at what’s going on in society. You look at the things that are happening economically on Wall Street; these are grown men who are cheating people. So you think about a kid who’s coming out of high school and you offer him, let’s just say, a thousand dollars, are you kidding me? You think he’s not going to take a thousand dollars? Forget about it.
Dean: Well, I think it comes down to boosters are going to do what boosters are going to do.
Woodson: They want their program to win.
Dean: Right and it means a lot of money for the universities if they do win, but what’s the answer? Sometimes all you need to do if you’re a coach or an administrator is you look in the parking lot and you see what that kid’s driving. If that kid is driving any kind of vehicle that he can’t afford, something’s wrong -- or am I being too simplistic?
Woodson: But it is simple, because coaches know what’s going on. Take the case of Tressel. He doesn’t want to say anything. One, he doesn’t want to get the kid in trouble. Then he doesn’t want to get the university in trouble. He hates that it even came across his desk because whatever’s going on, yeah he may know what’s going on, but he doesn’t want concrete evidence where he has to hold up for it.
Dean: And here is the worst thing, I think, that happened, and the NCAA did it. After they found out that the five kids at Ohio State traded their -- got money, tattoos, whatever -- they said they could play in the bowl game.
Woodson: That was wrong.
Dean: Because when they did that, they set a precedent that said that any kid who did anything after they played their last game, they can do anything they want. So, if you’re a kid who is going to go pro after your junior year or if you’re a senior, why wouldn’t you take something?
Woodson: Well, it’s all about the money. It’s all about that bowl game, so they’re allowed to play in that bowl game because if you have Terrelle Pryor, the marquee guy for a team, not playing in that game, then that game loses interest. The NCAA allows those kids to play because it makes money.
Dean: I’m going to put Charles Woodson as head of the NCAA. What do you do?
Woodson: What do I do as far as…?
Dean: You could wave a magic wand and make changes.
Woodson: Oh my goodness … (pauses)
Lucy Ann: I think you’re telling us there’s nothing you can do.
Woodson: Honestly, there’s nothing you’re going to be able to do. It’s going to happen.
Lucy Ann: It’s been said that money is the root of all evil, but look at the money that you have given to Mott Children’s Hospital and the big heart you have. We thank you. You have done just a tremendous job remembering those kids here and the University of Michigan, as you make your way in the NFL.
Woodson: Oh, thank you. I’m happy to do it.
Charles Woodson may believe there isn’t anything one can do about the state of college sports today, but as one man, he does set the right example. His charitable gifts, volunteerism, and hard work ethics are legendary. It starts with each of us as individuals remembering how powerful our own sphere of influence can be.
Lucy Ann Lance and Dean Erskine own Lance & Erskine Communications, which produces “The Lucy Ann Lance Business Insider” (M-F, 8 a.m.-11 a.m.) and “The Lucy Ann Lance Show” (Saturdays, 9 a.m.-12 p.m.) on 1290 WLBY. The programs are live streamed at www.1290WLBY.com, and podcast on www.lucyannlance.com. The above interview is a condensed version of a longer conversation that is edited for clarity. The complete audio interview is posted online at www.lucyannlance.com.
Comments
AA
Sun, Jun 5, 2011 : 2:37 p.m.
We rain riches on these people and look what it buys.
craigobr
Sun, Jun 5, 2011 : 2:26 a.m.
Lucy Ann: It's been said that money is the root of all evil, The actual accurate saying is "The love of money is the root of all evil"
johnnya2
Sun, Jun 5, 2011 : 12:35 a.m.
I have some major issues with the rules set forth by the NCAA, They are supposed to get "no added benefit" due to their participating in athletics. BUT, why are the athletes treated worse than an average student. They can not have a job during their season. A music major can take a paying gig anytime they want, even if on scholarship. The athlete can not transfer and continue to play football without sitting out a year. The business school major is not bound by this rule. An athletes scholarship does not have to be renewed if the coach or University does not want to, but a regular student generally only must maintain their grades to keep their scholarships. A student athlete must relinquish the rights to his likeness for commercial purposes. So the U can sell their jersey with their name on it with no compensation. How would that go over if we told a young Arthur Miller that everything he wrote as a student he no longer owned rights to, OR if we told Larry Page any ideas he had as a student were the intellectual property of the U. The athletes are actually university employees and should be subject to normal employee/employer relationships. <a href="http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=893059" rel='nofollow'>http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=893059</a>
Terrin
Sat, Jun 4, 2011 : 10:07 p.m.
That should have said, Michigan players are not calling for Tressel to be rung up the flag pole.
Terrin
Sat, Jun 4, 2011 : 10:04 p.m.
tater: If you recall, Tressel was one of the few people who actually spoke up for Michigan. He didn't cry that Michigan should be punished. Tressel came out publicly in Michigan's defense saying it was almost impossible for him to keep his players from practicing and the rules are hard to enforce so any Michigan violations shouldn't be taken to seriously. Accordingly, Michigan people shouldn't be calling for Tressel to be flogged. Moreover, current Michigan players are upset because they wanted to beat Tressel's Ohio State. If Michigan beats another coach, it isn't going to mean the same thing. Michigan's players are calling for Tressel to be rung up the flag pole. Further, in the grand scheme of things, Michigan was accused on cheating by practicing more. Michigan's coaches were accused of actively violating the rules and promoting the violations of practice time limitations. Tressel is being accused of trying to cover for players who sold Ohio State merchandise in violations of rules. He isn't being excused of promoting the selling the merchandise. The Ohio's players actions didn't give them a competitive advantage. Tressel took one for the team here. The only thing Tressel did wrong is not tell the truth about knowing about the players violations and failing to properly report it. Rich Rod should be sweating as now has to compete with Tressel for a new job.
Terrin
Sat, Jun 4, 2011 : 9:49 p.m.
Why would leaders from different organizations bad mouth Tressel? To do so assumes those people would have all the details surrounding the affair. Without knowing the details, people in influential positions shouldn't comment as their comments have more meaning. Further, many of the people probably know Tressel personally. Why speak poorly of somebody who already is being kicked around? Tressel, like all college coaches, are in a difficult position. If one of their athletes is getting a gift in violation of NCAA rules, through no fault of the coaches own, no option for the coach is pretty. If the coach suspends the player, the kid, the team, the University, and the coach will likely suffer a huge consequence. That doesn't seem fair for a violation in which nobody was really harmed. In the grand scheme of things, what the Ohio players are excused of doing doesn't seem horrible. It isn't morally wrong to sell merchandise. It simply is a rule the NCAA has in effect. Nobody was harmed. It didn't give Ohio any kind of advantage on the field. At the end of the day, if the news stories are correct, Tressel made a decision that he hoped would protect his players, his team, and the University. I hope he finds another coaching job soon. Whether true or not, he has always come across as an honorable man. He stood up for Michigan when Michigan was in trouble. It is also worth noting what Michigan supposedly did (namely practice more then allowed) did give Michigan a competitive advantage. Further, Tressel is a charitable person and has give a lot of his time and money back to the community.
Chase Ingersoll
Sun, Jun 5, 2011 : 12:08 a.m.
I'll hope that Michigan beats Ohio State next season, but I'm also hoping that Tressel is in the booth or on the NFL sideline quickly, making a lot more than he was making at Ohio State. The universities should not be putting the coaches in the position of being the players Mentor and Rat.
tater
Sat, Jun 4, 2011 : 9:17 p.m.
Hey, if Woodson doesn't want that "magic wand," I'll take it. Poof! Players can now take money from wherever they can get it. Boosters: step right up and buy the athlete of your choice. Pizza places: free pizzas for everyone on the team if you feel so inclined. Department stores: let's get these guys some nice clothes. Let the free market determine what the athletes get paid. If the schools themselves don't pay anyone, Title IX doesn't have to be involved, and athletes can be paid on merit. As for TSIO, Tressel, and today, it doesn't matter what the rules should be; what matters is what the rules are right now. And TSIO and Tressel broke them repeatedly, voluminously, and prolifically. They broke the rules and deserve to be punished to the full extent of the NCAA rules. TSIO people wanted Michigan to suffer severe penalties for fifteen minutes of stretching? Great. The shoe is now on the other foot, and that shoe is a revival tent (Tressel hypocrisy reference) compared to Michigan's. When they were hammering Michigan for fifteen minutes of stretching, I'll bet they never thought what "goes around" was going to come around. I don't know if I've had this much fun since 1997.
missionbrazil
Sat, Jun 4, 2011 : 4:44 p.m.
"They'll just want more money. It may work, I don't know. But if you give me five dollars, I'll want ten." I believe CW hit it on the head with this ... the idea of paying a stipend to college athletes sounds ok and it sounds like it could work, but I believe the flaw in that idea is that many will always want more ... and more ... and more. And there will always be someone out there who will offer it to them. And you will have some that feel that they are entitled to more, and they will take all they can get. What is disturbing is that more and more feel they are entitled. It's not just college athletics, it's the society we live in today.
missionbrazil
Sat, Jun 4, 2011 : 11:32 p.m.
For the players from poor families that want to play football and play by the rules, the stipend would work and would help them alot. Hopefully it would prevent some from breaking the rules to get some extra money. If that were to happen, then it would be great. I guess they would have to try it out and see how it works ... hopefully the abuses would be kept to a minimum.
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Sat, Jun 4, 2011 : 8:33 p.m.
mission wrote: "I believe CW hit it on the head with this ... the idea of paying a stipend to college athletes sounds ok and it sounds like it could work, but I believe the flaw in that idea is that many will always want more ... and more ... and more. And there will always be someone out there who will offer it to them." Maybe. But realize that, as it stands now, NCAA rules prohibit scholarship athletes from holding jobs except in very prescribed circumstances (e.g., their family owns the business). The result: athletes cannot make money so that they can go to the pizza place for a date. For middle class and upper class kids on the golf team, this is no problem. Their parents, relieved of the cost of a college education, have money they can throw at their college student athletes. For kids from poor families, however, that is not the case. And it is worth noting that virtually every time there are major rules violations such as those at Ohio State, the athletes involved come from underprivileged backgrounds (yes, there are exceptions--Chris Webber, for example). Giving athletes a stipend would end many of these shenanigans. Yes, there are those who will still violate the rules. But this will, I think, prevent many problems. And it is the right thing to do, given the NCAA's restrictions on its athletes holding jobs. Good Night and Good Luck
Will Warner
Sat, Jun 4, 2011 : 4:19 p.m.
Too many rules, people. Outlaw force and fraud and then let people make their way through life. Woodson is right.
Tru2Blu76
Sat, Jun 4, 2011 : 4:11 p.m.
I forgot to add that the Touhy family also was investigated by the NCAA for their "contributions" to Michael Ohr and for their "influencing" his choice of college he wanted to play for. The NCAA found no violations in THAT case - so maybe the NCAA might want to examine its own way of dealing with all contributions.
Tru2Blu76
Sat, Jun 4, 2011 : 4:04 p.m.
I was all set to state my opposition to this proposition that says essentially: "it's here - deal with it," but after reading Ms. Lance's statements and those of Charles Woodson, I'm having second thoughts. I'm always willing to fight for what's right - that's been true since I was in K-12 and defended others against bullies. Champion: someone who fights or argues for others or for a cause. So what cause are we champions going to fight for in this situation? Mr. Woodson is right: given their age group, these young exceptional athletes are going to see money and other gifts differently than someone who's a bystander judging them. And the coaches, athletic directors and college presidents are going to be in a bind if they try too hard to "correct this." What is suggested by Mr. Woodson's statements is that this kind of thing is universal at the college sports level. I'm guessing he knows better than most of us about that reality. If the Touhy family can adopt a poor black youth (Michael Ohr) and then encourage him to develop into one of the best college defensive players and one of the best NFL players, then cannot others also "contribute" to other college football players support? Maybe the answer lies in regulating such contributors rather than trying to regulate young players and their coaches and the universities they play for (champion). Getting all this out in the open makes it far easier to enforce rules of propriety. The Touhy family underwent investigation as prospective adoptive parents. Why not do the same to all these "boosters" - make them official contributors to college athletes? Make them register and make unregistered "contributors" subject to punishment - instead of punishing players and coaches.
Patriot
Sat, Jun 4, 2011 : 2:28 p.m.
For all these supposed great leaders (e.g., college presidents, football coaches, etc...) to side step the whole issue that Tressel lied, cheated, and covered stuff up - and admitted to it - shows a total lack of integrity from these people who are in very leadership positions that are in place to root out this kind of activity for maintaining and preserving the honor, respect, and dignity of these institutions. Thus, they are all true failures - professionally and personally. Now you see "into" these institutions for what they really are.
Tru2Blu76
Sat, Jun 4, 2011 : 4:18 p.m.
Remember that Tressel's troubles with the truth began long before his current violations. He always claims he "didn't know" about violations (including the notorious Maurice Clarett Affair). Tressel's been denying knowledge since he coached at Youngstown - all the while putting on the cloak of Christian Sanctity and Father Figure (in addition to being a "genius" as football coach). Logically, he can't be all of those things and still "not know" what he's supposed to know as part of his job.
John B.
Sat, Jun 4, 2011 : 3:49 p.m.
Well said.
Oldmaniac
Sat, Jun 4, 2011 : 2:18 p.m.
Folks - we can't just bury our heads in the sand. Collegiate sports generate big money and notoriety for many schools and as a result we have a situations such as that with Ohio. It is a complex problem with an even more complicated solution. But ignoring it and accepting the status quo will not solve it - it will only ecxaserbate the problem further. This has to be solved.
microtini
Sat, Jun 4, 2011 : 1:57 p.m.
Woodson's insight is really a breath of fresh air. I think he articulated the essence of the situation very clearly. One thing he didn't mention was that these rules are enforced much more strictly at schools that are not major contenders. Of course, this only reinforces the effect: the big Division I schools are the "pros". THAT'S where you get paid.
81wolverine
Sat, Jun 4, 2011 : 1:50 p.m.
Woodson is right - it's just human nature to want more for ourselves. But, people must also know there are rules that need to followed in life. Whether it's right or not right to pay players, the rules are there to prevent the abuse that will inevitably happen. The crux of the problem lies in the problem of "lack of adult supervision". The enablers here are the school administrators who tolerate the presence of overzealous boosters and look the other way. Ohio State is a classic example of this. The tail wags the dog down in Columbus. Until AD's, University Presidents, and Boards start to hold their schools to higher standards of conduct, the abuses will continue. The big question is whether some of these AD's and Presidents will have the guts to cut ties to some of these big donors because they're constantly skirting the rules.
Chase Ingersoll
Sat, Jun 4, 2011 : 1:38 p.m.
So I went to lunch and tipped the waitress/waiter 10 on a 25 dollar lunch because they were a nice U of M kid and I empathize with their situation and I've simply done something nice. But I give 10 dollars to a player or buy his mother a bus ticket so she can come and see him play and that is an NCAA violation??? I think what this is really about is the Universities and NCAA conspiring to not allow members of the public who empathize with these kids to give directly to them, but instead, force the public to give it to the universities where their sports bureaucracy can build a bigger stadium long after the player is gone and wondering why he suffers from short term memory loss. I say that the next time Ohio State is in town, everyone at the game take an extra 20 to pass to the fans who are over the tunnel and when the final gun sounds and the players run off the field, win or lose give them all a shower of thousands of 20 dollar bills. What the hell, do it the first game of the season and make it a tradition and even give the opposing teams kids a money shower.
FirsTri
Sat, Jun 4, 2011 : 1:09 p.m.
"It's been said that money is the root of all evil, but look at the money that you have given to Mott Children's Hospital and the big heart you have" Money is not the root of all evil as evidenced by billions of dollars that have been used for good over the centuries (case in point, the money that Woodson has given to Mott Children's hospital). It's the *love* of money which is the root of all evil.
missionbrazil
Sat, Jun 4, 2011 : 4:34 p.m.
Well said FirsTri ... the love of money is the problem. Like you said, in the right hands money can be used for all sorts of good.
Gwhizz
Sat, Jun 4, 2011 : 3:09 p.m.
Thank you. The LOVE of money is root of all evil.
David Briegel
Sat, Jun 4, 2011 : 1:03 p.m.
From the top of the NCAA to it's supposed leaders, the Presidents and the Athletic Directors, they see no evil, the hear no evil and they speak no evil. Mary Sue Coleman is shocked and dismayed and makes no comment. That's what leaders do? Is she afraid someone will be saying the same things about Michigan someday? Who and where is the moral high ground? The NCAA and the Universities make hundreds of millions off the spectacle and the athletes are a necessary evil. The kids see what's going on and they see the inequities. So many millionaire coaches who don't know where their star athletes really live or what vehicle they drive. Funny? I know the education they get is worth hundreds of thousands with the room and board but they are living with some kids who get fancy cars and vacations and all the other perks that the wealthy can afford and it is very difficult to not even be able to afford a pizza and a couple beers. I wonder why Charles wasn't asked about his personal experiences? I love Woodson and his perseverance with his career and his giving back to Mott. He represents someone who is leading by example and who could be the force for good. "It's going to happen"!?
Brad
Sat, Jun 4, 2011 : 2:50 p.m.
Mary Sue Coleman: "I am shocked, shocked that there is graft in college sports!" "Your $100M for this year's althletic income, Ma'am".
glacialerratic
Sat, Jun 4, 2011 : 1 p.m.
Marquis is the title of a nobleman. Marquee is the signboard above a place of entertainment, sometimes bearing the name of the star of the show, which, by analogy, is extended to mean the star player on a team or the individual who is the main attraction at an entertainment.
Tony Dearing
Sat, Jun 4, 2011 : 8:37 p.m.
That's been corrected. Thanks.
Hailmary
Sat, Jun 4, 2011 : 12:56 p.m.
This situation is predictable human nature. Just like raising your kids, you set boundries and just like the," good ol days" all the involved adults take an active part in insuring that the rules are followed. There was a time when adults got actively involved in raising young people this included, parents, teachers, ministers, aunts and uncles and yes even administrative people. It's called,"Adult Supervision" and without it as you can witness by todays kids there will be more, ohio state's. Jim Tressel failed these young men. When these young men tested the water which young people will do the safety valve which was in thise case Jim Tressel failed, this was nothing more than a lack of adult supervision.
1bit
Sat, Jun 4, 2011 : 12:21 p.m.
"They'll just want more money. It may work, I don't know. But if you give me five dollars, I'll want ten." I think he's exactly right. If you set up a way to pay players, maybe it should be based on performance (both on the field and off).