Q&A with Brit Satchwell: Ann Arbor teachers union president talks about school funding
Brit Satchwell: President of the Ann Arbor Education Association.
Lucy Ann: What is it that you don’t like about the governor’s budget?
Brit Satchell: Wow, that’s a huge question. Let’s first of all get away from schools for a moment and talk about democracy. His emergency financial manager’s bill gives the governor the right, given certain triggers, to remove elected officials from office -- the mayor, the city council, the school board -- and put a financial manger in place. I just see that as a huge question in regards to democracy; and then education and other issues fall in there as subsets.
Lucy Ann: The governor characterizes it as being helpful to those communities to empower them to rectify a very bad situation.
Brit Satchwell: We’ve got to break through the smoke screen of his rhetoric. I think that he’s genuinely well-intentioned, but his policies are 180 degrees from his own objectives. For instance, he’s proposing a cut of $470 per student that I liken to an asteroid. To have the ability to remove officials and put in people who don’t really know what’s going on in that community or school district is a disaster.
Lucy Ann: What will that mean in the Ann Arbor Public Schools?
Brit Satchell: This year the AAPS projected a deficit of $7 million dollars. As soon as Snyder declared his budget and the cuts per student, that projected deficit grew to $15 million. We’ve got a renewal coming up in May and if that fails, the projected deficit grows to $22 million.
Lucy Ann: We understand that these numbers are quite dramatic, but what are the sacrifices that the union has made?
Brit Satchell: Last year alone we gave $3 million in concessions. If you break that down, that’s $2,500 [per teacher.] The special enhancement millage failed, which was asking the average homeowner for about $200 a year. I regret that; and once the public wakes up to the effects, they will regret it too. Compare that to the $2,500 that each of my members gave. We’ve also capped our health care expenses for the district.
Lucy Ann: Explain how teachers are contributing to their health care.
Brit Satchwell: I pay 23-24% of my own. The cap in Ann Arbor is set at $12,500. If we choose a plan that is over that it comes straight out of our pocket. This is an example of the union working with administration to try and control costs. Health care costs are not under control of the teachers, school board, or city. That is a federal problem.
Lucy Ann: Any other cuts you can make that will help?
Brit Satchwell: The idea that schools or the public sector in general are not making cuts is absolute nonsense. AAPS has reduced itself by a third over the last five years.
Lucy Ann: What is the average teacher salary in Ann Arbor?
Brit Satchwell: The middle of our scale is about $60,000.
Lucy Ann: An incoming teacher?
Brit Satchwell: About $39,000. I’ve been here 15 years and I have a master’s. I’m making, ballpark, $85,000.
Lucy Ann: What does it take to increase that salary? Years of service?
Brit Satchwell: Yes, and educational attainment. A bachelor’s degree is paid less than a PhD. We have a lot of those in the AAPS. It is common in the public sector to attract talent to mediocre paying jobs. If people think $60,000 is more than enough, I don’t know what to tell them. A third of teachers leave within the first year and half leave in the first five.
Lucy Ann: Why not add to that mix the effectiveness of the teaching and the results?
Brit Satchell: Absolutely. I would be a hypocrite if I said I like meritocracy in my city governments and corporations, but not here. We need effective measures to reward teachers who are performing and to encourage teachers. I am all for objective evaluation systems and performance pay. But it has to be done right. There is a lot of research to show you how to do them. Take subjectivity out, put objectivity in, then everyone has trust in the system, and teachers rise or fall on their own merit.
Lucy Ann: Would that include how students do on tests?
Brit Satchell: That’s where it gets tricky. The test everyone refers to is the MEAP. The test is given at the beginning of the year based on the performance of skills last year. You cannot measure individual teachers that way. However, there are better tests that use value-added growth measures. We are discussing those possibilities.
Lucy Ann: Will there be teacher layoffs next year?
Brit Satchell: That’s where collective bargaining comes in. Is there going to be pressure on wages? Absolutely. What about staffing? Absolutely. Where we find the balance to cope is what collective bargaining is all about. We are working on objective evaluations and performance pay. We have good minds on both sides here in Ann Arbor, and they will tell you the union is a full partner in answering these questions.
Lucy Ann Lance is co-owner of Lance & Erskine Communications, which produces “The Lucy Ann Lance Business Insider” (M-F, 8 a.m.-11 a.m.) and “The Lucy Ann Lance Show” (Saturdays, 9 a.m.-12 p.m.) on 1290 WLBY. The programs are live streamed at www.1290WLBY.com, and podcast on www.lucyannlance.com.
Comments
Tina Richmond
Wed, Apr 6, 2011 : 2:06 a.m.
Brit, the AVERAGE teacher salary, as the question was asked by Ms.Lance was $72,761 for the 2008-2009 school year in the Ann Arbor district. This is according to Bulletin 1014 on the Michigan.gov website. The Bulletin lists the average teacher salary for every district in the state of Michigan as well as many other helpful expenditure/revenue metrics for those wanting the facts.
Steve Norton, MIPFS
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 2:44 p.m.
To "InsideTheHall" and others: Who's this "we"? If you're angry about your economic situation, taking it out on teachers is pretty absurd. Unemployment around the state, and in Washtenaw Co. in particular has been falling. (Agreed: not because of lots of new jobs.) Maybe most important, overall state personal income rose in 2010, is expected to rise this year and even more next year. And those are increases above inflation. So resources are out there, it's a question of who has them. The Snyder tax proposals have the effect of taxing low-income families even more heavily than they already are; high-income families are still being asked to contribute very little relative to their overall income. The main groups paying more under the Snyder plan would be moderate-income seniors (exemptions for the first $45K of pensions are gone) and low-income workers (earned income tax credit is eliminated). AND one billion dollars is cut from education, most of that from K-12. Why? To fund a $1.1 billion business tax reduction. The original $1.4 billion state budget deficit is being covered mostly by tax increases which fall most heavily on seniors and the working poor, plus state spending cuts. Schools thought they might get to keep the $170 in expiring Federal money (which backfilled earlier cuts) because the School Aid Fund is projected to have a $340 million surplus next year. Instead, the governor proposes to shift more than half of university funding, and two thirds of community college funding, into the School Aid Fund. So not only do K-12 school not get to recoup any previous cuts or even stand pat, they are losing more than $850 million. Business people around the state who want to attract top employees to Michigan know, and have been saying, that top-notch schools are critical to their chances for growth. That often concerns them more than taxes. These are the companies that will be creating jobs. They know what's in their best interests - so should the re
Steve Norton, MIPFS
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 3:04 p.m.
Hmmm. Character count malfunction. It said I was ok, but truncated my post anyway. The last line of the original post should read: "They know what's in their best interests - so should the rest of us."
Steve Norton, MIPFS
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 2:59 p.m.
I was originally writing in response to "ITH"'s original, deleted, posting. But : "The schools unions are full of hypocriscy....."It's all about the kids." What a crock!" I think that qualifies as angry. Mississippi and Alabama may be attracting jobs, but of what kind? Good paying jobs that can support a family and college educations? We've got companies right here who want to attract top talent, and they are telling us it doesn't help when the headlines are full of cuts and more cuts to schools. We're not "throwing money" at education, were systematically taking money away and have been doing that for many years now. None of the proposals on the table would prevent that from continuing. The resources are there. We are just afraid of asking those who can, to pay their fair share.
InsideTheHall
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 2:51 p.m.
Who said anyone is angry? The current path is not sustainable. Throwing money at education does not mean better education. A look at per pupil costs by state will prove that out. Mississippi and Alabama are attracting jobs? How can that be? Do they have a better public education system than Michigan? The schools unions are full of hypocriscy....."It's all about the kids." What a crock!
InsideTheHall
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 2:43 p.m.
"If the general public won't protect students from Snyder, teachers will." Brit Satchwell Mr. Satchwell: Please stop using our children as human shields to advance your union's agenda. Fact is if an across the board 11% giveback is achieved no teachers have to be laid off. Of course, the schools unions historically have no problem eating their young to "advance the cause".
nickd
Mon, Mar 21, 2011 : 11:29 a.m.
An outsiders view: 1) I also have a masters degree. Worked a 35 year career, 50 wks, 60+ hrs per week. My salary topped out at $45,000, then I was laid off as too expensive. I have no pension, no health insurance. 2) Where are the teachers when the cooks, janitors and bus drivers get fired? They're just as critical to a schools functioning, but they're the first to go when it comes to protecting the teachers. 3) Did I read you just hired a new superintendent. At $250,000 a year? And how many staff are over $100,000? A lot... 4) Is $60,000 too much? Is $85,000 too much? Dunno. But that's three times and two times the average salary in Washtenaw County. Come'on Brit.
Dr. I. Emsayin
Mon, Mar 21, 2011 : 3:19 a.m.
I hear from local talk that Pioneer is slated to lose about 25 teachers, some of the best in the school. Pioneer is really suffering for Skyline's opening in terms of teachers, sports, electives, combined levels of courses, even dropping German 4 completely so that students have to take it online instead of with a teacher. The more money cut now from the school system, the more electives will disappear, the larger class sizes will become and the poorer services will be from teachers who are overburdened all the way along the line to secretaries, counselors, custodians, and other assistants who help run the schools. Taxpayers voted for a 3rd high school, now they need to vote to continue the millage so our least able students will get the help they need without causing the funding to come from the general education classroom. The state doesn't mandate AP courses like they do special education services, so let's keep our schools afloat.
limmy
Mon, Mar 21, 2011 : 1:39 p.m.
Yes, and I noted that only 135 students applied for 100 spots at Skyline while over 400 applied for 120 spots at Community. Obviously, more and more parents and students want the smaller, more personal environment that a small/medium sized school like Community offers.
Tony Livingston
Sun, Mar 20, 2011 : 11:48 p.m.
Can someone tell me how cutting funds for schools leads to a better educated workforce? You know, the kind everyone says we desperately need here in Michigan? How does that work with more and more students crammed into each classroom? How does that help the kids that actually depend on the public schools to educate them? My kids are almost finished but I worry about my friends with 4 and 5 year olds. My guess is that anyone who can afford it will send their kids to private schools.
Dan Ezekiel
Sun, Mar 20, 2011 : 11:39 p.m.
Thank you for representing us so well, Brit. I just returned from Romeo and Juliet, a Sunday performance at Community High School. Absolutely amazing job by the kids--we have so much talent among our students! There are a lot of adult theater companies that wish they could present Shakespeare at so high a level of beauty and emotion. (Sarcasm alert:) Of course, there were a lot of those rotten freeloading highly-paid teachers there too, having spent the weekend and innumerable evening hours getting the students ready for their moment of glory. Another huge concession that we Ann Arbor teachers (and students and parents) have been giving for many years now is larger class sizes (and, at my level of middle school, more teaching time). I have watched my classes swell from 22-24 to the present 30 ish over the last few decades. My last hour 8th grade class has 32 students, of whom 19 are squirmy 13- and 14-year-old boys. Keeping them focused on learning makes for an exciting end to the day. I'm doing a good job of teaching them Physical Science, but I encourage those who think our work is a cakewalk to try keeping the energy going in that class at the end of a long hectic day! Gotta go now. Piles of papers to grade and lessons to finish. I wouldn't trade my job for anything, I love it. But remember, folks, teachers, firefighters, police, and nurses aren't the enemy! The last I heard, education schools are still accepting applications. If you want to get on the gravy train with me, there's still time. Thanks for letting me get that off my chest!
Brit Satchwell
Sun, Mar 20, 2011 : 5:39 p.m.
Don Bee, The 3% court ruling you refer to was for OTHER state employees, not teachers. Two cases, two judges, the teacher case has not yet ruled, you cite the wrong case. And the state just dialed up the contribution of the districts up by 3% in case the teachers win our case. Result: the district pays either way and kids lose... more of what Snyder calls "shared sacrifice". The teachers conceded about $3 million last year. That works out to about $2500 per AAEA member, when the community voted down a contribution of about $200 per average household in the millage... opposition led by primarily two very wealthy "pillars" of our community. Each AAEA member gave 12.5 times more than the public was asked to and refused to give. I don't expect you to feel my pain, it came out of MY pocket, not yours, but facts are facts regardless of your insensitivity to others' pain. AAEA doesn't represent transportation, custodial or maintenance. But we DID make an offer that would have brought THEM into the terms of OUR agreement. AAEA did not throw those employees under the bus, the folks who have been putting the screws on AAPS finances did, and I would include you among them based on your positions. You were not at the table and did not see us stick up for those employees. And the result is that our entire community's average standard of living was reduced. The "cut" crowd makes us ALL poorer. The retirement rules changed and are about to change again... with respect, please get caught up and correct yourself as I correct myself when I don't get my facts absolutely right, OK?
aataxpayer
Sun, Mar 20, 2011 : 10:33 p.m.
Brit, It wasn't shared sacrifice in an amount necessary to save their jobs - teachers choose to maximize their salary and benefits at the expense of others. Let's be honest - you basically forced the school board to dump the drivers.
SpamBot1
Sun, Mar 20, 2011 : 9:36 p.m.
@DonBee Considering the judge returned the money to public sector employees because the method used for taking the money was UNCONSTITUTIONAL and the same result appears likely for teachers, are you pleased or not?
DonBee
Sun, Mar 20, 2011 : 8:58 p.m.
Brit - Sorry, the Judge in the teacher case, only put the money in escrow, he has not ruled yet. The likely ruling is that you will get your 3 percent back. Also likely is with interest. No, I was not at the table, no citizen was allow to see, hear, or comment on the negotiations. No version of the contract or even the key terms was allowed to be discussed with the taxpayers. Yes, I know you are protected by state law, so you "CAN'T" inform the public before the vote.
John of Saline
Sun, Mar 20, 2011 : 5:51 p.m.
"AAEA did not throw those employees under the bus, the folks who have been putting the screws on AAPS finances did, and I would include you among them based on your positions." You know, if you'd show a little gratitude to the taxpayer who pays your salary, rather than insulting them when they ask questions, you might get further with your arguments. Just a thought.
timjbd
Sun, Mar 20, 2011 : 5:34 p.m.
Perhaps someone will ask the governor why slashing pay, benefits and jobs on those who can least afford it is preferable to raising taxes on those who can most afford it and who have benefitted by far more than the rest of us during the boom times? It's as if that option doesn't even exist because republicans fill the echo chamber with their pro-corporate, pro-wealthy talking points. And guess who owns the echo chamber- it sure isn't the hippies and public workers.
Brit Satchwell
Sun, Mar 20, 2011 : 5:15 p.m.
I want to clarify what came across as fuzzy math in my interview with Ms. Lance. Her transcript was accurate. Please use her link above to the entire interview. I was unintentionally fuzzy in an attempt to honor what we all share as a desire for simplicity... some among us don't want to be bothered with facts or details that fly in the face of the myths they have taken to heart. Re my comment that AAPS has cut "1/3": What AAPS cut on average over the last five years ($34.4 million total) is about $7 million/yr. The worst case deficit projection for next year is $22 million IF the non-partisan special ed millage RENEWAL fails in May. (The millage renewal will NOT raise taxes!) Result: Our average annual cut over five years is about 1/3 of what we could face next year. And if we are forced to face a $22 million deficit next year, that will make the new 6-yr total to $56.4 million, 30.9% (not quite 1/3) of AAPS's total annual budget target of about $182 million. Background: AAPS and AAEA plan to function at maximum quality and efficiency GIVEN the emergency financial situation that we as a state have allowed to be imposed upon our students by shrinking the annual budget over two years from around $192 million to a more sustainable (pre-Snyder budget!) target of about $182 million along a smooth glidepath to avoid programmatic disruptions as much as possible. This includes reducing full-time AAEA positions from around 1200 to around 1100. The needs of students won't be dialed down as shameful educational funding emergencies continue to be dialed up. Their needs grow year over year as do costs beyond AAPS's and AAEA's control. Snyder's budget will destroy our shared plan. Bottom line: The public must decide what it wants public education to be in relation to what they will pay for it. Vilifying educators who have contributed generously from their own pockets will no longer suffice. If the general public won't protect students from Snyder, teachers wil
DonBee
Sun, Mar 20, 2011 : 8:55 p.m.
Lisa - In state money, yes. In total income no. Of course the locally voted funds and other funds don't count when according to the education advocates.
Lisa
Sun, Mar 20, 2011 : 5:37 p.m.
I think it cannot be said enough that if one takes inflation into account, we are currently receiving $2000 less per pupil in Ann Arbor than we were in 1995 due to the state's refusal to honor its funding promises from Prop. A.
Lisa
Sun, Mar 20, 2011 : 4:53 p.m.
Again, the major problem with merit pay is funding. Florida passed a law taking away tenure for new teachers in exchange for merit pay but the bill does not include funding for merit pay and they are cutting funds to schools. How will the merit pay be provided? What do you do in a district like Ann Arbor where most of your teachers are very good? Does everyone who is performing well, whose students are doing well, get merit pay? Where does that money come from? If there is a limited amount of available merit pay, how will one decide if the excellent math teacher or the excellent music teacher gets it?
Tammy
Sun, Mar 20, 2011 : 3:47 p.m.
12,500 cap on the insurance...yet he still pays 25% more...What more coverage could you possibly need that is not covered with a 12,500 policy...Sorry Brit,hard to feel sorry for anybody with this type of coverage...Private sectors are lucky to get a 1/3 of this amount if any.Try the real world sometime
Lisa
Sun, Mar 20, 2011 : 5:01 p.m.
Tammy, According to this, <a href="http://www.annarbor.com/news/mackinac-center-ann-arbor-public-schools-lead-in-lowering-health-costs/">http://www.annarbor.com/news/mackinac-center-ann-arbor-public-schools-lead-in-lowering-health-costs/</a> Ann ARbor Public Schools is very similar to the average private sector employer with regards to health care. Second, MESSA covers things like speech therapy for children that are often refused by other plans. Teachers run MESSA and we know the importance of early intervention for children with developmental delays. Its a darn shame that other insurance plans DON'T cover these vital services.
aataxpayer
Sun, Mar 20, 2011 : 4:16 p.m.
Tammy, It sounds like Brit still has insurance through MESSA, which is affiliated with the MEA. As the AAEA president it appears that Brit chooses MESSA coverage as a form of solidarity with MEA leaders in Lansing. Note that the $12,500 limit probably still allows teachers without dependents to get MESSA coverage without paying any money, which must make the MEA very happy. A sensible change in Ann Arbor would be to require teachers to pay 15% of their premium with a maximum employer obligation of $12,500. Under this plan MESSA would have to play on a level playing field.
local
Sun, Mar 20, 2011 : 4:09 p.m.
He must have MESSA, the cadillac of insurances. Yes, teachers that take MESSA are paying out of packet and a lot out of packet. It is my understanding that the other two insurance choices are priority health and blue cross and those two choices come in at, or just below, the 12,500 figure. In theory, if it comes in below, the district is saving money by teachers taking one of those two choices.
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Sun, Mar 20, 2011 : 3:16 p.m.
"Another big piece is you got a rider no other union got in your contract to split any new revenue between the teachers and the schools. The custodians and maintenance folks give much deeper cuts (as a percentage of income) than the teachers did, and they did not get that kind of promise. " Yup. And another couple in a series of misleading so-called "facts" 1) So the teachers are to be faulted for driving a better deal than did other bargaining units? If it'll make ya feel better, DB, I suggest you go to a school board meeting and demand other bargaining units get the same deal. 2) Yes, the teachers will split "new revenue". That seems fair. They took cuts based on projections of revenue cuts. If the revenue unexpectedly went up, it seems only fair that the teachers get back some of their give backs (as should other units, as well). But given that the AAPS is projecting a $15 million deficit, this seems a moot point. Good Night and Good Luck
aataxpayer
Mon, Mar 21, 2011 : 3:38 a.m.
Ghost, You suggest that fiduciary responsibility required the AAEA to throw their fellow workers under the bus. I don't think so, but if I'm wrong it would be another example of why so many people are fed up with teacher unions.
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Sun, Mar 20, 2011 : 10:12 p.m.
Not that your reply has anything to do with fiduciary responsibility . . . There is a difference between advocating financial responsibility and bashing teachers as being lazy, over paid, under worked, etc..... Too much of the latter over the past year and very little of the former. And almost none of it informed by anything that could reasonably called facts (e.g., ignorance of the meaning of the term "fiduciary responsibility") Good Night and Good Luck
aataxpayer
Sun, Mar 20, 2011 : 9:55 p.m.
@Ghost, So why do you complain about "teacher bashing" - isn't it just taxpayers expressing fiscal responsibility?
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Sun, Mar 20, 2011 : 5:10 p.m.
aataxpayer: Let me introduce you to the concept of "fiduciary responsibility". You can, as they say, look it up. Good Night and Good Luck
aataxpayer
Sun, Mar 20, 2011 : 4:24 p.m.
Ghost, The AAEA looked out for itself at the expense of bus drivers and custodians. Management went along with the AAEA, but the AAEA didn't win any sympathy points with the public. The AAEA needs to work fast to improve equity or taxpayers may not pass the special education millage. Good luck.
SpamBot1
Sun, Mar 20, 2011 : 3:02 p.m.
@Don What rulings are you you referring to regarding health care contributions? I know that public sector employees have received a favorable ruling, basically returning the 3% that was taken from them. It was returned to the "privileged class" of workers because the courts ruled that the move by the legislature to take 3% was "clearly unconstitutional." The outcome for teachers is still undecided. The 3% taken from teachers, including Brit, is in a different court. Most interesting to me is that the courts have required that the 3% taken from teachers must be kept in escrow until a ruling is made in this case because the state has a history of playing games with money, and if the move is ruled unconstitutional, the courts did not trust that the state would pay it back to the teachers. It seems that happened one time before...
Vivian1
Sun, Mar 20, 2011 : 3:02 p.m.
DonBe, the rulings and Lansing did not include teachers' 3%. Teachers are still paying that.
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Sun, Mar 20, 2011 : 3:11 p.m.
Make certain you check every one of his so-called "facts". They frequently are not. Good Night and Good Luck
DonBee
Sun, Mar 20, 2011 : 2:40 p.m.
Brit - Nice try, about 1/2 of the give backs were overtaken by the rulings in Lansing telling the state to return the 3 percent contribution to the retiree health care. Another big piece is you got a rider no other union got in your contract to split any new revenue between the teachers and the schools. The custodians and maintenance folks give much deeper cuts (as a percentage of income) than the teachers did, and they did not get that kind of promise. The bus drivers took an even worse hit, they no longer exist at AAPS. Additionally you and your members can retire as young as 46 or 55 (depending on the plan) and 30 years of service. Sorry Brit, while I do not advocate cutting your pay, I also don't feel your pain. As to the budget issues at AAPS, most of them are self inflicted, including the new salary of the Superintendent.
Lisa
Sun, Mar 20, 2011 : 10:16 p.m.
If school times are coordinated so all children in the district can ride a single bus, you will need three times the number of buses. Which is more efficient?
DonBee
Sun, Mar 20, 2011 : 8:51 p.m.
I indicated that buses should be consolidated. I see 7 count them, seven AAPS buses pas my house twice a day. None are full by the time they get where they are going. I wanted school times coordinated so all children in a household could ride 1 bus.
Lisa
Sun, Mar 20, 2011 : 5:16 p.m.
DonBee, So many people on this site (including you if I recall correctly) were demanding that busing be 'outsourced' to save money. I don't recall a single teacher supporting that; in fact, many of us opposed that just like we opposed the outsourcing of our food services. But the district made their decision to outsource busing before they came to table with teachers. How were we to stop it? As for the superintendent's new salary, teachers have had no control over that. And yes, many of us are outraged. The difference in salary is enough to pay for an extra teacher in a classroom somewhere. Finally, yes, we can technically retire young but not with a full pension and benefits. Most teachers can't afford to retire young; its a rare individual who does.