Now is not the right time for more charter schools in Michigan
On Dec. 14, our state legislators passed Senate Bill 618 to allow more charter schools in Michigan. Wasting no time, Gov. Rick Snyder signed it into law on Dec. 20. The leaders in Lansing like the idea of choice and competition, and when the population in Michigan is growing, that way of thinking would be just fine.
But the population in Michigan is shrinking, which means that every year schools have to work with less and less money even if the per-pupil funding stays the same. Adding charters now makes the situation worse.
Janice Loomis
So, with the passing of this law, perhaps a new charter will open in your district. Most likely it will be an elementary because they are less expensive to operate and charters are often run by for-profit organizations.
Parents select a school for their child for a whole range of reasons. So, let’s say 100 students go to the new charter, about 17 students per grade level. At $8,000 per student, the public school has just lost $800,000. Now, where will they make the cuts?
The charter will hire 6 teachers, one per grade level. If those 100 students came from the same elementary school area, can the public school cut 6 teachers? Not likely. It’s most likely that the public school classes have 25-30 students in them. So, the public school will combine classes and maybe be able to cut three to four teachers. The average teacher salary in Michigan is $58,000 per year, and the average beginning teacher makes $35,000. If the district cuts four teachers, making the average amount it means it has cut $232,000 from the budget. But it’s lost $800,000.
Where will the other $568,000 come from? Are the electric bills any smaller because 100 students left? No. The books, desks, computers, etc. are already purchased, so no savings there. Does the district need fewer buses? Can it cut a secretary? Maybe. With all of the brain research in recent years, new instructional techniques abound. Does the district cut essential training for its teachers?
In reality most of the $568,000 will have to come from the core of the organization. Cuts will be made to already-established programs, and this is where the real destruction comes in.
The population in Michigan has been shrinking for years. Some districts have been hit harder than others; but overall, many districts have been dealing with these types of cuts even without charters coming in. Adding charter schools now is a deadly blow to public schools. It’s important that parents understand that adding “choice” will mean cuts to public school programs that have been taken for granted and have been an essential part of a public education system that helped create a successful nation.
If you check school rankings and other research, there is NO evidence that charter schools overall are more successful than public schools. So, why must our State Legislators and Governor add more now? When public schools announce decisions about having to close schools, make cuts to good programs or increase class sizes, understand that in these tough times, our State leaders have made a difficult situation worse.
Janice K. Loomis has worked in public education for more than 20 years as a teacher and administrator. She is principal of Hoover Middle School in Taylor and a resident of Ann Arbor.
Comments
ekimecir
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 9:32 p.m.
On average, charter schools are not performing as well as their traditional public-school peers, according to a new study that is being called the first national assessment of these school-choice options. The study, conducted by the Center for Research on Education Outcomes at Stanford University, compared the reading and math state achievement test scores of students in charter schools in 15 states and the District of Columbia—amounting to 70 percent of U.S. charter school students—to those of their virtual "twins" in regular schools who shared with them certain characteristics. The research found that 37 percent of charter schools posted math gains that were significantly below what students would have seen if they had enrolled in local traditional public schools. And 46 percent of charter schools posted math gains that were statistically indistinguishable from the average growth among their traditional public-school companions. That means that only 17 percent of charter schools have growth in math scores that exceeds that of their traditional public-school equivalents by a significant amount. In reading, charter students on average realized a growth that was less than their public-school counterparts but was not as statistically significant as differences in math achievement, researchers said. From U.S. News and World Report; <a href="http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/on-education/2009/06/17/charter-schools-might-not-be-better" rel='nofollow'>http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/on-education/2009/06/17/charter-schools-might-not-be-better</a>
timjbd
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 7:48 p.m.
I know the commenters here will be happy when "school choice" no longer includes public schools. That time is coming soon. Let's face it- at any given time, a minority of voters have children of school age. Even if MOST of them fought off the big-money backed propaganda and wanted strong public schools, there are not enough who understand the benefit- to society at large- of public education. As long as there are both McDonalds Academy AND Burger King Academy, that's all the choice they think is needed.
Townie
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 7:34 p.m.
Always interesting to see how skilled the Republicans are at shifting the public's attention from the real problems our society faces -- they've been very successful in demonizing public employees, schools, government in general that had little or nothing to do with the present mess. I guess it was inevitable since they'd worn out the 'gays', 'muslims' (though they're still using that one), abortion, immigrants, etc. to divert attention from the Wall Street crooks and liars. Bad prime loan selling, derivatives, CDOs, etc. and stupid wars -- followed by cutting revenues left us in this mess yet no one talks about it. Well, we got what the least informed in our society thought were the problems and the rich and Republicans continue to marginalize the middle class. Now that the wealthy and the large corporations have the 'right' (Citizens United, thank you!) and the money (thank you all those tax cuts) to control election media campaigns the transition is complete and the this thread illustrates it. Teachers working for minimum wage teaching the children of the middle class while the public schools are eliminated - think about where we are going (or have gone so far).
Michael Christie
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 5:33 p.m.
I would like to know where the tax dollars goes when parents send their children to Charter Schools? So you pay for a 'private' education and aren't a burden on the city to provide an education, but there's no reduction in taxes a household pays.
Jake C
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 9:44 p.m.
Long story short, instead of tax money going to public schools, they go to the charter schools: <a href="http://mi.gov/documents/PSAQA_54517_7.pdf" rel='nofollow'>http://mi.gov/documents/PSAQA_54517_7.pdf</a> "How are charter schools funded? All charter schools are funded through the State School Aid Act (1979 PA 94, as amended). A charter school receives funding through the per?pupil base foundation. By law, this amount may not exceed the per?pupil base foundation received by the local school district where the charter school is geographically located. Does a charter school qualify for state and federal grant funds in the same manner as a local school district? Yes, a charter school may access state and federal grants in the same manner as local school districts. Various factors apply to the eligibility of charter schools and school districts to apply for grants. The Michigan Department of Education (MDE) publishes a report entitled "Report of Grants Available," made available to charter schools and local school districts."
Diagenes
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 4:24 p.m.
Education is certainly a hot button issue. It is unfortunate that more politicians have not put forward proposals to improve the system. Gov. Snyder and the GOP lead legislature have the intestinal fortitude to try something that might improve the educational opportunity for Michigan's children. It may fail. It may suceed. But at least they are trying something. The status quo is not acceptible. If the goal is to educate children than many options should be on the table not just the 19th century model we have dominating our communities now. Not all children are served by the current public school model. Unfortunetly the education industry has morphed into two camps; one dominated by organized labor, and the other by private/religious schools. Charter schools are an attempt to bridge the gulf between the two camps. Parents should have the freedom to choose the best option for their children. There is a role for government to facilitate funding and ensure standards. Professional educators need to look beyond their own self interest and put forward proposals that will meet the needs of children.
KeepingItReal
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 4:01 p.m.
In his letter from a Birmingham Jail, the late Dr. Rev. Martin L. King chastised his Ministerial colleagues who admonished him for his non-violent protest and leadership that "now is not the time" for blacks to press for rapid social change in the Jim Crowed south. For centuries blacks had been subjected to the most inhumane conditions any human being had ever been subjected to in this country. His letter, pricked the conscientious of his ministerial colleagues and eventually they begin to understand the need for change., Unless you have been on the receiving end of poor education, constantly referred to in the "achievement gap" venacular, then Ms. Loomis, perhaps I can understand your sentiment that now is not the time for more charter schools. However, the traditional public schools have failed in their mission to provide black students with educational equity and it is now time for change.
Dog Guy
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 3:44 p.m.
Charter schools won't be putting millages on mid-February ballots. Charter schools do not slop in the property tax trough at all. No technology millages, no building millages, no bonds for redundant high schools, and they wouldn't have the mutual union assistance to pass them if they could propose them.
shadow wilson
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 3:40 p.m.
This is an even tempered op-ed; and with all the inflammatory false info being said about charter schools I appreciate it. The fact is charters are not taking anything away from public schools because they are public schools.Also charters are not for the elite or privileged and in fact if any of those so anti charter took the time to visit one they would likely see that most of the pupils are lower income. Charters represent the opportunity for parents to put their children in a school similar to a private school setting. They are no better than trad public schools.However, charters it is evident, are attractive to parents of poor children that have an active role in their kids education and are not happy with thrsd pub schools.
Mike
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 3:07 p.m.
Public schools are for profit as well. They profit the unionized school teachers who plunder the public with onerous contracts. This article is yet another attempt by these thugs to hold our children hostage so they can extract more monies from taxpayers.
TFR
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 2:38 p.m.
I wish that I could funnel my $8,000 for each of my two kids to the private school that I send them to! Heck, I would love to just have a portion of that so that our private school could thrive even moreso. It stinks that I have to pay taxes to support public schools that I don't send my kids to. So, teachers, Ms. Loomis, MEA, NEA, liberals; you are all welcome for me sending my kids to a private school on my own dime so that they are taught by teachers of like mind and spirit.... enjoy my money to use as you wish. Merry Christmas!!
glimmertwin
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 1:30 p.m.
I'm not sure what's worse - seeing the public district in your example struggling to handle the "loss" of the $568,000, or the fact they were getting $800,000 and still manage to disappoint at least the 100 families that elected to leave. The fact is if you don't like the merchandise at one place, you go to another.
Zach
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 11:18 a.m.
Loomis's argument is flawed in that she begins by accepting the premise that public education is a good that must be protected. She adds her remark that charter schools are not "more successful" than public schools almost as an after thought after having argued against allowing more charter schools based solely on the presumed harm caused to public schools. Why not let the public debate center, as many of the comments do, first on settling the question of whether public education or private education is more likely to result in an educated and prepared citizenry and workforce? Only if that question is resolved in favor of public education do her arguments become relevant.
eric
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 3:56 a.m.
Let's let the free market decide. Ms. Loomis' argument is akin to a UAW worker demanding everyone buy a UAW built automobile. And to solve her problem, as charter schools open and take away funding from public schools, I guess we'll just need fewer public schools. Fewer schools mean less overhead and the budget will come right back in line.
Arborcomment
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 9:01 p.m.
Eric, that's a nightmare for the left. Fewer public schools means fewer union teachers. Fewer union teachers means less union funds available for the democratic party. See how cranked they are on this story? Bringing in "defense department vs. war department", "banksters" even mircosoft - all the usual left hysteria. The possibility of removing the third leg on that government milking stool is very upsetting.
Billy Bob Schwartz
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 8:11 p.m.
Yup, eric, I think you've got it. Schools should only exist if they are really cheap. If we can only finally get rid of them, think how much beer money we would have! I would like to do that, and I have a list of others I would like done away with. They include, but are not limited to, the Army, the Navy, the Coast Guard, the Marines, the National Guard, the Air Force, police departments, fire departments, road commissions, legislatures, and a whole pile of other useless, inefficient, outfits. We should keep working on ending public education so our taxes go down, and I would like to start a new drive to bring competition to police and fire departments. Imagine it. We could have six or seven different fire and police departments in Ann Arbor. They could compete at a lot of levels. Most important, people would automatically call the lowest paid firefighters and police officers to come to their rescue, saving us all a ton of local tax money. I can't wait to get this started. Could somebody let Rush know about this new initiative, please?
Mick52
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 3:46 a.m.
Lack of evidence that charters are better? Perhaps because there are not enough charters. This is an interesting documentary: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx4pN-aiofw" rel='nofollow'>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx4pN-aiofw</a> Not a research based piece but interesting. If our public schools were so great there would be no interest in charter schools.
Chase Ingersoll
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 2:24 a.m.
This is no different than if Comcast were to telling the City of Ann Arbor that AT&T Uverse should not be allowed to access to the Ann Arbor market, or anywhere in the state that Comcast is offered, because AT&T Uverse has no better customer service record that Comcast and because the potential competition might cause Comcast to loose revenues and have to reduce their workforce.. But what I have to ask AnnArbor.com is, "if someone from Comcast submitted such an article about a competitor, would you even accept such submission, or would you at least require such an opinion to be submitted by someone with at least some perception of impartiality?" Chase Ingersoll
godsbreath64
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 7:43 p.m.
Well Snyder didn't want to compete with these campaign sophistry, alright. Not only is the election over, but so is the legislation. You still can't rest on the merits. There are none.
MIKE
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 4:29 p.m.
Rob, the issue is competition. Public schools don't want it.
Sparty
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 4:49 a.m.
How on earth does this compare to education? It's makes no sense at all to me and seems way off topic? Let's compare Mexico to pears next.
godsbreath64
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 2:16 a.m.
If the author can bring that smile to reward our children learning, much like this article and discussion, it is a bargain we all can be thankful for. Keep up the good work!
Nephilim
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 1:26 a.m.
What is the comparison of MEAP test scores between charter schools and public schools? I am curious since there seems to be speculation that every study is biased one way or another. Is there any reason that would not suffice as a base line of which institutions are meeting the basic requirements?
Billy Bob Schwartz
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 8 p.m.
The MEAP tests are a meaningless measure of education promoted by people who either don't know any better, or who use them as a way of turning people against the schools, or who, well, in my opinion, are pretty simple-minded. All it does is make parents and taxpayers unhappy with their schools for no real reason, and force schools to pound rote learning into the kids until they squeak. Make a list of the specific things you want kids to memorize, make up a paper and pencil test that sorta measures that, and then turn the teachers loose to pound those specific things into those young heads so the school and the teachers and the students and the parents can look good on that test. What about real education? Learning to think. Learning to find a problem, identify the parts of that problem, find a good solution to that problem, and prove it; learning to suspect that MEAP tests are not a good way to tell if a school is doing a good job, then studying up on testing and on the MEAP in particular, then deciding logically if it is worthwhile or not. Learning how to interact with many different kinds of people, and to tolerate (but not necessarily agree with) those differences. Learning to appreciate many different things in the world, including art and music and all kinds of cultural things, and to value and practice having an open mind. Well, a full description of a true education is too much for here, but suffice it to say that the there is a whole lot more to it than memorizing stuff for a government-ordained excuse for a test.
Steven Harper Piziks
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 4:33 a.m.
Uh . . . that web site is maintained by a group of charter schools. Not the most reliable source of information! Try here: <a href="http://www.npr.org/2011/04/28/135142895/ravitch-standardized-testing-undermines-teaching" rel='nofollow'>http://www.npr.org/2011/04/28/135142895/ravitch-standardized-testing-undermines-teaching</a> And here: <a href="http://voices.washingtonpost.com/answer-sheet/charter-schools/about-the-brill-story-on-chart.html" rel='nofollow'>http://voices.washingtonpost.com/answer-sheet/charter-schools/about-the-brill-story-on-chart.html</a>
Nephilim
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 2:12 a.m.
<a href="http://www.charterschools.org/press-room/710-release-strong-meap-results-for-charters" rel='nofollow'>http://www.charterschools.org/press-room/710-release-strong-meap-results-for-charters</a> Numbers kind of speak for themselves if the intent is to give the children the best possible environment for learning. Also, before anyone accuses of me with siding either way, I am not. I personally don't care. I have zero kids yet I seem to have to pay for three school districts including 3000 a year extra for that fabulous Dexter high school that they apparently just had to have. Like Saline, like whitmore lake and like Howel. I seem to recall that the Howell HS is vacant. Fiscal responsibility. I love it.
Macabre Sunset
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 1:06 a.m.
This was a decision the MEA made necessary. Sorry, at some point your union has to pay for its excesses. You've been enriched at the public trough for far too long, Ms. Loomis.
Albert Howard
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 12:49 a.m.
Like Borders, Ann Arbor is losing a generation to a new school of thought (charter schools). I support the Senate Bill 618!
Jacob Bodnar
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 12:47 a.m.
What about, ya know, teachers taking a pay cut to offset that amount? Or benefit cut? But I'm sure the union would fight against that, they'd rather see programs cut or even teachers cut over a pay decrease of even 2% for all teachers. What about getting rid of some tenured teachers and replacing them with new ones? Oh wait, can't do that, it's impossible to get rid of tenured teachers unless they want to leave. Or how about, oh I don't know, the public school do a better job at educating children so there's no incentive for parents to pull their kids out of public schools? Crazy thought I know, but it might work. The only reason there's demand for charter schools, or home schooling, or any other alternative to public schools, is because for many people public schooling is lacking and doing a poor job of educating their children. We can't just sit on our hands and whine that competition is going to change things. Duh, of course competition is going to change things, that's the very reason public school employees and the unions hate charters. They know their system is flawed, they know they're getting too good of a deal, and when competition finally comes, it's going to actually level the playing field and it will suddenly force the unions to live in the real world, where people take pay cuts in a bad economy and instead of complaining about it they thank God they still have a job.
timjbd
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 7:32 p.m.
Which part do you think merits rebuttal? It's just a bunch of talking points he heard on the radio. It doesn't matter how many times, for instance, a teacher explains that tenure DOES NOT mean they cannot be fired, someone makes the opposite assertion based on nothing to do with reality. Study upon study is linked showing results comparing public and charter schools and people like this Jacob get on here to claim no one has ever shown evidence of this or that. It's pointless to offer arguments to people who refuse to believe evidence in front of their own eyes. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" -Upton Sinclair In these cases you can substitute "identity" for "salary."
MIKE
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 4:27 p.m.
Great post, I guarantee you don't get one intelligent rebuttal. So far they're 0/2
Steven Harper Piziks
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 4:05 a.m.
Yeah! Let's cut those salaries because we want cheap, cheap, cheap labor to educate our kids. Because, yanno, you never get what you pay for. We want cheap, low-paid teachers educating our students. The Wal-Mart model is the way to go for our kids.
timjbd
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 1:51 a.m.
Hey, why not make teachers work for free?
menthol
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 12:40 a.m.
Why should we be forced to have competition in education? I am perfectly happy with government workers, with lifetime tenure, feeding carefully-selected edutainment morsels to my kids 161 days of the year, and then taking 96 straight days off, and then complaining about it. Why, I just got back from the tax-funded government food market, and my shopping bags are full of government surplus cheese, broccoli and spam. How dare anyone suggest competition could improve on that. And I drove there in my Government Motors Volt, which only costs 196% more than a comparable right-wing car. There are still loopy folks out in the sticks muttering that they weren't well connected enough to get some of those Stimulus funds. They would have if they belonged to an approved union, or contributed $100,000 to the campaign for Hope and Change in 2008. If you hear anyone running down our Generated, Veneered President, get their name and I will report them to Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner. He can quickly dip into their records and see if they are a tax cheat.
Steven Harper Piziks
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 4:03 a.m.
And you can drive your car on those tax-funded roads through neighborhoods kept safe by tax-funded police, get your water from tax-funded water lines, stop at tax-funded stoplights powered by tax-funded electricity, have your airplane directed to land by tax-funded traffic controllers, eat food inspected by tax-funded inspectors, take medicine inspected by tax-funded scientists, take a walk in a tax-funded park, swim at a tax-funded public beach patrolled by tax-funded Coast Guard, and . . . oh, never mind.
David Briegel
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 12:40 a.m.
And to alll above. Paying for public schools used to be the hallmark of an advanced and civilized society. We are drifting so far away with our Perpetual War Profiteering, Socialism for Banksters, "free market" no bid contracts for Drug Pushers, the failed drug war fueled prison industrial complex. An educated society is a threat to all of the foolhardy notions so prevalent amongst the right wing and tea drinking elites. Your version of a Brave New World will be the downfall of our once civilized and proud society! You hate unions but the War Profiteers, the Banksters, the Drug Pushers, the Prison Industrial Complex really have the most powerful unions in our society. Oh, and Happy Holidays!
Nephilim
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 12:07 a.m.
Is the president's children or any senator's kids going to public schools? Hmmmmm. Just wondering. If they're not, then I wonder why? Anybody help me with this?
Billy Bob Schwartz
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 7:26 p.m.
Why do rich and powerful millionaire types send their kids to well-known private schools instead of to beleaguered public schools? Do you think the connections they make at these schools and the high quality of the education, with no one in the general public ranting about their waste of money and their incompetence, might affect these folks? It's what really rich and powerful people do. I don't see how that ties in to the question of draining funds and better students from public schools with virtually no government oversight. Still, I think that's kind of why they might do that.
Arborcomment
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 3:40 a.m.
Neph, David quickly moved to the governor. Washington DC and the President is somewhat of an embarrassment to his concern. DC receives about the highest per student $$$ in the nation - yet has very poor results. Their top-notch administrator, making progress, and firing ineffective teachers, Michelle Rhee,was forced from her position when the mayor that hired her lost reelection. Obama's kids of course go to Sidwell Friends private school. Lastly, Obama and his party had killed existing charter school funding in the district through congressional action. This would have forced parents to move their children from charter schools they previously attended. Elections in 2010, public outcry, and a deal put a stop to it.
David Briegel
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 12:26 a.m.
And now you know why the governerd trashes the funding for our schools that his kids don't attend!
maallen
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 11:41 p.m.
@David Briegel, "Students and parents have plenty of choices." We are all waiting in anticipation of what those "plenty choices" are.
johnnya2
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 4:21 a.m.
"Since I am paying taxes, and as a parent, I should be able to send my children where I feel is best for them" You have every right to send your child any damn place you please. YOU do not own the tax dollars though. It would be like saying, i really do not feel TSA is the best use for protecting me and my family, so I want another option which is flying private jet. BUT, i want the money I would have paid for TSA to come to me to help pay for my private flight. All the money spent in Iraq was not the best use of MY tax dollars, so I want to pay for my own personal defense. I do not feel the government does a very good job of protecting me, so every dollar that would have gone to the department of war should be given to me and used as I see fit. I will also take this same attitude regarding roads, police, fire, the FDA, USDA, etc. Somehow the right wing lives by a philosophy that paying teachers a decent wage is a bad thing. Let's say charter schools become more and more popular. Teachers salaries are driven to $25k per year with no benefits and no tenure. Who will be the teachers? What reason would anybody get into the profession? As for the boring rant against flawed studies by DonB. No study can ever be unflawed. That is the nature of individual situations. Charter schools also have no legacy costs to bear. Those can never be taken out of the equation. No comprehensive analysis of data can be reached in 3 years or 5 years. In fact, it would take an entire generation to determine effectiveness. A kid may have done poorly in a traditional school due to a teacher that they did not like, or maybe a child matured from one year to the next, or the parents finally decided to get involved. No matter where you stand on the issue comes down to one thing. Parents who get involved in their child's education have the most successful outcomes. Though too many think they know about the HOWS of educations. I wonder if these same parents would tell a doctor how to operate
maallen
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 12:43 a.m.
@David Briegel, Wow, those are the "plenty of choices?" Private schools? Since I am paying taxes, and as a parent, I should be able to send my children where I feel is best for them, whether it be a public charter school or a traditional public school. As a parent, I know what is best for my children. Not a government agency dictating where I need to send my kids to school. Kind of interesting though, David, you certainly want everyone to pay for healthcare/health insurance. You think everyone should pay higher taxes for that, but give a parent an opportunity to send their child where they feel best, heaven forbid! That's not right. Let the government decide! I am glad there are choices, other than your mention of just private schools.
David Briegel
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 12:25 a.m.
You have the same choices as your governerd. Greenhills, Gabriel Richard and all the other schools. You just want the rest of us to pay for your "choice". No personal responsibilty for you guys! Just like I have to pay for your wars and your "free market Drug Pushers", you have to pay for your school. Don't like it, change it! That's what we get told!!
Linda Peck
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 11:40 p.m.
I love charter schools and freedom of choice. I will not vote for any candidate in coming elections who is not in favor of freedom of choice, especially where educating our children is concerned. We all have different goals and wishes for our families. We are not all cookie cutter parents and grandparents.
Sparty
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 1:42 p.m.
That's the beauty of Democracy. There are others who feel and will toe differently, however. Different cookie cutter taste apparently.
David Briegel
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 10:47 p.m.
I want a choice in our "defense" vs "war" dept. I want to pay for a military that defends our nation. You righties can pay for a military that bombs 8 Muslim nations and perpetuates the Profits of Perpetual War! You can create tomorrow's terrists today and the rest of us can build a better world. But that choice will never occur for the same reason you demand "choice" for schools. The basic "ideals" of the philosophy of your tea drinking party! Sanity be darned!
MIKE
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 4:23 p.m.
I can play this! You want no choice in school issues, then I want no choice in abortion issues. Sound logical?
David Briegel
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 10:41 p.m.
How is it that those noble "free marketeers" want the free market for education but not for the Banksters or the Drug Pushers? I expect a full report from the usual posters, DonBee, gorc, grye, jcj etc.
Andy Price
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 10:10 p.m.
Bring on the paid trolls. I do wonder how much they make though. And how does one apply for such a job? Are there postings on the Mackinaw Center web site?
Andy Price
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 10:05 p.m.
Now is the time for LESS charter schools in Michigan (and everywhere else). Our schools should NEVER be for-profit enterprises. Never.
Steven Harper Piziks
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 6:39 p.m.
The school itself must be non-profit, but (from the Michigan.gov web site): "[charter schools] may hire a management company (Education Service Provider) to operate all or any part of the school." So it runs kind of backwards. The school pretends to hire a company to work for it and run the school, and it pays a huge chunk of its per-pupil allotment to the management company, when actually, of course, the management company owns the school. It's a paperwork thing. The management company calls all the shots--they handle hiring, facilities, curriculum, EVERYTHING. But since the charter school has "hired" them, the school can say the school itself is non-profit.
maallen
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 7:26 a.m.
Steven, Your facts are kind of confused. Or maybe it's just you. What part of the law don't you understand "Michigan law requires charter schools to be organized as non profit?" So the charter schools are non profit. However, don't get that confused with the charter schools hiring for profit management company to help with things like janitorial services, lunch services, etc. Do you understand now? Good. There's a difference.
Steven Harper Piziks
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 3:57 a.m.
Sorry, maallen, but that's not true. The vast majority of charter schools in Michigan are run by for-profit organizations. That's not supposition; it's fact.
Andy Price
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 10:40 p.m.
...and that someone is still maallen. :)
maallen
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 10:28 p.m.
Looks like someone needs to read the laws that govern public charter schools. Public charter schools are non profit entities. Just because they hire a management company to manage their cleaning service, lunch programs, etc. does not mean they are for profit. Maybe someone needs to brush up on some reading.
Andy Price
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 10:18 p.m.
Looks like someone doesn't know what charter schools are or who runs them. And by "someone" I mean maallen.
maallen
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 10:13 p.m.
And you are correct. They are not "for profit enterprises." Glad we can agree on that!
Mo
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 9:47 p.m.
Here's my opinion: Your opinion is wrong. Charter schools are not subject to unions and tenured teachers that focus on how much benefits and pay they receive. They are actually being held far more accountable than public schools. They are authorized by public institutions and governed by the public. It's easier to shut down a charter than a public. They offer options and are innovative when it comes to teaching and learning. "For profit," what about "For salary." The only reason we have folks in A2 who are opposed to the charter school movement is simply because of unions. We have an obligation to find new ways to teach our children and hold educators to a higher standard; charter schools do just that. Lets not be opposed to the movement but rather supportive, we are all responsible for providing options for parents and a quality education for the kids here in Michigan.
Steven Harper Piziks
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 3:55 a.m.
Mo, actually that's not true. The new law allows charter schools to open with no accountability at all. Anyone at all can open a charter school now, and they don't have to prove that they can do a better job than the local public school--or even an equally good one. Charter schools don't have to meet higher standards, as you claim. That's simply false. They don't have to meet =any= standards until the first round of testing starts up.
SpamBot1
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 9:36 p.m.
Many posters here begin with the false premise that free-market competition will improve anything. I question that. There has to be a few instances where the invisible hand of the market did not serve public interest well... @DonBee... You dismiss so many studies as "biased." I agree that much of it is biased, but I don't write it all off. I have noticed one trend in the research; Every study I have seen supporting charter schools has been published by far right-leaning "Think Tanks." Every study I have seen questioning charter schools has been published by respected universities.
SpamBot1
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 11:11 p.m.
@DonBee I did read your response above and I appreciate your response. A discussion should be our motivation. I have only had time to review three studies including CREDO, the Mathematica one linked above (and below) and one shameless set of lies published by a think-tank funded by The Heritage Foundation. <a href="http://www.mathematica-mpr.com/publications/PDFs/education/cmo_final.pdf" rel='nofollow'>http://www.mathematica-mpr.com/publications/PDFs/education/cmo_final.pdf</a> I did read the rebuttal by Hoxby, but I think you put more weight with it than most do. The CREDO group refuted her concerns, and then she changed her concerns. CREDO refuted her concerns again. I think I misunderstood your second paragraph; are you saying any school that produces secondary certified teachers will produce questionable research? I think one of the major problems in the discussion about improving schools is that teachers are often shouted down and ignored as if they know nothing about how education works. I think we will have to agree to disagree on the CREDO research. My knowledge of statistics and research methodology is not as extensive as you describe yours and there is no way my daughters or wife would allow me to investigate the research as much as you have. However, in the case of CREDO, I am relying on Stanford, my knowledge of stats and research, and that the concern you bring up seems to be addressed. Are there any lit reviews out there?
DonBee
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 10:17 p.m.
Spambot1 - See my response above to your comment. The Stanford study is so flawed the University had a rebuttal posted on the website, and that rebuttal led to a string of longer and longer statistical rebuttals. If you take the time to work through them you find that the statistics are so bad, you would flunk a statistics 201 class. As to respected universities. I find it interesting that most of these universities are endorsed by the NEA for teachers to get secondary education and how the research was funded is not transparent. I have taken each study I could find and done the following. 1) read them in detail making notes 2) looked for offsets for changing schools and how that was controlled for 3) reviewed as much of the raw data and the statistical methods as are available 4) talked to educators and statisticians about the assumptions in the study 5) looked at the the results of changing the assumptions to match what is suggested by experts In all, I will reject these studies as flawed and unusable. Even if the funding was not an issue, the underlying research and statistical methods are so poor that I would fire someone working for me who did that bad a job. My job requires daily statistical work and that work has to be right. Sorry to burst your bubble, but there are NO good studies. As I recommended to Brit in this blog - the MEA has 3 years to collect and analyze information from the charter schools. If they don't like charters get a real study conducted and prove your point. Maybe partner with the Mackinaw Center - that would be a real ying/yang of a team.
Gorc
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 7:59 p.m.
Looks like competition has stirred the pot from those who are afraid to compete.
godsbreath64
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 7:39 p.m.
Gorc, that is why you put a leash on Lansing, not the principles educating our precious children. Thanks for the argument, but we really didn't need it.
Gorc
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 1:56 p.m.
Godsbreath64 and Johnnya2 - if the two of you have faith in the government to take care of your needs, then keep creating excuses their incompetence. Can you name me one entity that govenrment has its hands in that runs well.
johnnya2
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 4:01 a.m.
Competition would require a level playing field. The kid who attends the charter school still gets the right to use money that the local district uses for things like sports, band, etc. The charter school is not required to educate EVERYBODY. When you decide the autistic child won't work as well in your charter school because they do not have the teacher or capabilities to deal with them. BUT the traditional school is REQUIRED to teach them. Make charters follow every law that traditional schools follow, and then we will talk. Until then, charter schools are a mechanism to marginalize students who may not fit the ideal mold.
godsbreath64
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 9:23 p.m.
Nice attempt at the frame. Sorry 'bout your status quo :)
Gorc
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 8:49 p.m.
godsbreath64 - I found at least one...the author of this opinion piece.
godsbreath64
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 8:29 p.m.
you aren't looking, then.
USRepublic
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 7:50 p.m.
You just don't get it lady...
Sparty
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 4:36 a.m.
Yes, what would an Educator with 20 years experience as a teacher and administrator know about those areas ?
Andy Price
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 10:39 p.m.
Ladies...pffft. What do THEY know anyway?
godsbreath64
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 7:55 p.m.
or she just has fundamental pride.
Chris Carpenter
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 7:48 p.m.
Competition raises quality. People like Janice Loomis don't believe in competition - which is one of the greatest drivers of excellence. If the parents were happy with the current school and education their child was receiving, they would not want to switch them to a charter school. One of the worse things about public school is that unions protect seniority instead of protecting merit. So the best young teachers get laid off, and the burned out teachers using outdated methods like lecturing are kept. Sometimes a old teachers with a lot seniority will be kept to teach in a subject they minored in while an expert in the subject is laid off. If money is so much of an issue, why do we pay the new superintendent so much? Why don't some small school system like Willow Run and Lincoln merge to reduce duplication and overhead? If Taylor schools are so great, why doesn't Janice Loomis live in Taylor?
Steven Harper Piziks
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 6:29 p.m.
"Age/seniority does not guaranty success or excellence, much less a caring or nuturing attitude." I never said it did, bornblu. But the odds are certainly greater. You can take you car to the new mechanic, your health to the inexperienced doctor, and your legal problems to the rookie attorney if you like, and you might get your car fixed, be healed, and win your case. Experienced people can make mistakes or have problems. But the newer ones tend to make more of them. That's how they gain experience. I don't want someone to learn on my child.
bornblu
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 3:19 p.m.
Steven; I will stay away from a debate as to charter/public schools as I have had relatives teach and attend both (great enviornment for learning provided for and received in both). What I take issue with is your implication that only a long term teacher in a public school could address the issue of educating a child with a significant learning disability and ADHD. I also have a grandson with those issues. My frustration has been with the public school in not adhering to IEP results/recommendations, and no assistance by the school administration in holding his teacher accountable for implementing decesions made. It went so far as to have one administrator tell his parents and myself not to worry as the teacher "was an older teacher, unable to adapt, and that he would have a new teacher the following year". To be fair, we have had a much younger teacher simply fail to respond to the behavioral program to be implemented regarding daily assignments and who did not have the time to follow up through emails relative to nightly assignments. I am reminded of what was once told me; I was a new teacher, just out of college, who had spent two years in two very large city school system when I went to a much smaller system. I believed I had many new ideas that could be considered innovative relative to instruction but was told "this is not the way we do things here". Years later (many) I would come home quite exhausted and complain that we had too many young teachers on staff that wanted to implement new ideas and they did not understand that "this is not the way we do things here". Suffice it to say, I retired but have witnessed many others holding on for any number of reasons. Age/seniority does not guaranty success or excellence, much less a caring or nuturing attitude.
Steven Harper Piziks
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 3:37 a.m.
No, Chris. You've been given a line. You act as if experience is a bad thing. My youngest has some fairly severe learning problems and ADHD, and when I learned his fourth-grade teacher was a 30-year veteran granny, I was freakin' relieved. She's seen it all and knew instantly how to handle him. She knows who to talk to, what resources are available in the district for him, and exactly what kind of help he needs. If he'd had a first-year teacher fresh out of the box, I would have asked for a transfer to a different classroom. Who do you want operating on you? The doctor who's done a thousand operations or the guy who just got his medical license? Who do you want representing you in court? The lawyer who's fought a thousand cases and knows all the judges, or the gal who just passed the bar yesterday? Who do you want to show up when your house is on fire? The fighter who's put out a thousand fires or the rookie on his first call? Who do you want fixing the brakes on your car? The mechanic who's done a thousand brake jobs or the one who got his mechanic's license last week? And who do you want educating your children? Despite what Hollywood likes to show in movies, the new kid's supposed passion doesn't take the place of solid knowledge and experience.
godsbreath64
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 8:16 p.m.
Thanks for the myths!
MIKE
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 7:26 p.m.
So why is it that charter schools can educate a student for $8000.00 (and turn a profit), yet public schools apparently can't? "The average teacher salary in Michigan is $58,000 per year, and the average beginning teacher makes $35,000. If the district cuts four teachers, making the average amount it means it has cut $232,000 from the budget. But it's lost $800,000." Apparently Ms. Loomis is not a math teacher. Factor in the benefits/retirement costs of those four teachers, and they'd be closer to goal. A tweak here, a tweak there, and I'm sure they would make up the difference.
MIKE
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 4:19 p.m.
Wow Steven, charter schools sound bad. I'm sure no parent will want to send their kids to one, when the wonderful public school system is an option.
Steven Harper Piziks
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 3:27 a.m.
Because charter schools start their teachers at about $20,000 a year with few health benefits. (As a result, charter school turnover rate is extremely high--teachers stay for a couple years to get some experience, then jump ship to public schools. Charter schools teachers rarely have more than three or four years' experience and are often first-year teachers.) Charters also don't buy supplies (they require parents to do it), they don't have to maintain a fleet of buses, they don't have provide as many special education or ELL services, they don't, they don't, they don't. They rely on public schools to make up the gap.
DonBee
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 10:09 p.m.
Mike - You are correct - In Ann Arbor 4 teachers would reduce the budget by approximately $410,000. Additionally the reduction in other services would drop another $50 to 70,000. So it would be closer to $500,000 than the $232,000 claimed in the article. In most cases schools cut teachers first and administrators (management) last.
average joe
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 7:25 p.m.
Ms. Loomis- Perhaps the main reason that the parents of these students that chose to move their kids to a charter school is that they felt the public school wasn't giving their child an adequate education. What have you, as an administrator of an elementary school or your district done to remedy this, and turn your building into a school that parents seek out to educate their kids, as they do when they seek out a charter school. You can't just whine about it and blame the state, something that is for the most part beyond your control. But you can control what is in your building.
Tru2Blu76
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 7:25 p.m.
The underlying (always unmentioned) problem with "privatizing" schools systems is that primarily the wealthier families send their children to charter schools ("academies" etc). This is the phenomenon described as "Insulation by Wealth." So it's even harder on the remaining less well off families and their children. Private schools, even the most egalitarian, tend to instill elitism among the students who know they are being protected and provided (allegedly) superior education. As Ms. Loomis points out, private schools (corporations in their own right) shamelessly cherry pick from the most wealthy families and avoid taking on the more challenging grade levels. What's really low is that politicians with the Privatizer Bunny Agenda inevitably benefit when corporations support their campaigns and there's evidence that: after legislative service " comes further rewards. So this is the system "endorsed" by Gov. Snyder and his Corporate Lackeys for Corporations: it's "guaranteed success" for their corporate clients and bosses. Also guaranteed degradation of the public school system which formerly made the foundation for our democratic republic.
Steven Harper Piziks
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 6:25 p.m.
Don: Ah yes--the budget cuts everyone voted for when they put Snyder into office. How are those working out for you? Carpools, by the way, still cost money. And which charter schools provide transportation for all students? I'd like to know.
DonBee
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 12:03 p.m.
Mr Piziks - In Ann Arbor now if you have high school students it takes money too - because there is very limited transportation for high school students. Some charters actually have transportation and arranged car pools.
Steven Harper Piziks
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 3:22 a.m.
Actually, it takes money to send children to charter schools. Charter schools don't provide transportation (so a parent has to drive). Charter schools usually require uniforms, which parents have to buy. Charter schools require parents to buy supplies for their kids (public schools can ask but not require). The transportation issue alone often knocks a lot of families out because parents who get out at 5:00 can't pick the kids up at 3:30 and can't afford $150 a week for after-school daycare. Poorer parents are much less likely to enroll their kids in charters.
5c0++ H4d13y
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 10:43 p.m.
The wealthy send their kids to private schools not charter schools.
maallen
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 9:41 p.m.
@godsbreath64, love your "talking points." I see when you can't refute someone's statement(s) you resort to attacking the messenger. When you have something substantial to offer in the discussion I will gladly address it. So please tell me which part of my post you disagree with? Feel free to disagree, but back it up with facts.
DonBee
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 8:52 p.m.
TurBlu76 - Charter schools are free to all students to attend, just like the private schools. They are both state supported. It is similar the fact that Canada supports 2 or 3 school systems in each province, one is what we would call a public system, the others are what we would call charters or religious schools. Canada seems to do a better job of educating a population which has a higher percentage of 1st and 2nd generation immigrants than the US does, using fewer dollars on average than the US. Canada seems to have a pretty good democracy too, with multiple parties. So why should we force one solution on all children here, especially when it is so broken in the large urban areas?
maallen
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 8:27 p.m.
Someone needs to read the law again on Charter Schools. It is a PUBLIC school, not private. Where is your proof that wealthier families send their children to charter schools? Please explain how charter schools "cherry pick from the most wealthy families." "...public school system which formerly made the foundation for our democratic republic." Apparently someone doesn't know his history of our democratic republic. Our founding fathers were educated privately. They didn't attend public schools. As a matter of fact Thomas Jefferson wrote this in his State of the Union Address "It should not be proposed to take ordinary branches of education out of the hands of private enterprise, which manages so much better all the concerns to which it is equal." Thomas Jefferson, sixth annual message to Congress (1806). Even Thomas Jefferson knew the government shouldn't get involved in education because they do such a bad job of it. Up until 1840's schools were mainly private and not public. It wasn't until 1867 that the Department of Education came into existence, so please spare us that the public school system made the foundation of our democratic republic. We don't need more revisionist history. The public school system is doing a good enough job of that without help from you.
Chris Carpenter
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 8:07 p.m.
The children of the charter schools would naturally be proud. They will be getting a better education from a school that will also interact politely with their parents. The teachers will be hired and fired on merit and teaching success, not protected by unions.
average joe
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 7:31 p.m.
Tru- Charters are not "private" schools. BTW- I know of several parents who are not "wealthy" by any stretch of one's imagination, & find it hard to make ends meet. But, they are commited to their kid's education, and like wise are very involved at their kid's 'Charter' school.
MIKE
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 7:30 p.m.
We're talking a charter schools, not private schools.
braggslaw
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 6:05 p.m.
If I was a chicken farmer, I would try to outlaw beef and pork This column is so riddled with self interest, it is laughable
godsbreath64
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 6:48 p.m.
Right. Bulwarking her students from the party-before-countries.
timjbd
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 5:22 p.m.
Excellent summation. Thanks. And naturally, when you stick your neck out for public schools and you get attacked with nonsense by the usual right wing fact-free flamethrowers. These comment sections have become ridiculous. The federal education budget is under full assault by the forces of radical capitalism. The slashing of per-student funding is to be replaced by corporate sponsorship- Microsoft, Fox, Apple, Frito Lay, Pepsi, Coke, Nike, Reebok, Sara Lee, Kraft, McDonalds, Old Navy, A&F, Hot Topic, etc. These new for-profit rote learning factories have enough funding behind them to operate at greatly reduced per-student rates for as long as it takes to wipe out the public schools. Next, the corporate sponsors will move in and bring their products and funding with them. A perfect captive market where young minds can be assimilated into the world of consumerism. Computers and minimum-wage "class monitors" will replace teachers. Federal guidelines have been concentrated on testing so the curriculum can be delivered en masse by computer networks and easy to administer tests (also on computers). Ten years or so. By then, maybe Newt Gingrich will have gotten his wish and children will be forced to clean their own factories.. I mean schools.
timjbd
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 7:12 p.m.
In the past, the Detroit school board has been a total fiasco. Think Kwame Kilpatrick x 11. They may now want to think about going back to ward-based school boards but... they are facing the pressure I was talking about- right wing budget annihilation and the attack of the charter corporations and their ideological backers. Detroit is a model for what is coming to the rest of the state- no matter how well school districts are doing currently, they simply cannot defend themselves against attack from corporate "education." Even IF every citizen had children in the public schools, and voted in their actual interests, there are other issues that seem more pressing. These corporations are willing and able to carpet-bomb the whole state with their glossy propaganda and most people do not have the time, energy, inclination to attempt to refute it even though it is largely lies. So people vote for it because they believe that the "private sector" does things more efficiently and better even in a complete vacuum of evidence. It sounds like it should be true but that's only because the Heritage Foundation and ALEC and their ilk have been manufacturing that narrative for 30+ years.
Sparty
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 4:30 a.m.
My solution for places like Detroit is to let the people who live in Detroit elect their own school Board rather than have the Governor illegally usurp their duly elected officials, DonBee.
Arborcomment
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 3:18 a.m.
Not to worry tim, you've discovered the future and alerted us. Now forewarned, we can take steps to address.
braggslaw
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 5:54 p.m.
Wow
DonBee
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 5:33 p.m.
timjbd - And your solution for places like Detroit is/are?
MIKE
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 5:17 p.m.
Public schools have nothing to worry about if they provide a better service than charter schools. That should be what Ms. Loomis focuses on.
DonBee
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 12:01 p.m.
Mr. Piziks and Spambot - Go back to the threads on charters starting a month ago. I spent considerable time taking apart the CREDO study. Let's start with the fact it did not account for the loss of progress from changing schools. Then look at the rebuttals. The Mathimatica study has a similar flaw in the not accounting for changing schools. The CREDO study shows steady progress in year two in regaining lost progress (as would be found in any study on the impact of changing schools) and it shows that there is still more progress in the third year. Are you both just taking the MEA talking points that members are given or are you actually reading, critically the studies? Did you get beyond the executive summary?
Sparty
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 4:27 a.m.
And DonBee, What are the Expert Sources that discredit the studies you are referring to? Where are the links ? Or is it just you that find them "flawed" when they don't support your views ?
Steven Harper Piziks
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 3:17 a.m.
DonBee, you keep talking about these studies but never backing them up. Where are they? And when did parents become "customers" of schools? Are we "customers" of roads, firefighters, and police officers, too?
SpamBot1
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 10:53 p.m.
@DonBee If you typed with less hubris, we might be able to have a discussion versus an argument. I'll try. I looked back at the CREDO study as you suggested and found the complaint you brought up. I found that Hoxby's concerns were addressed by CREDO TWICE. A little more research found that some of Hoxby's other research is coming under new scrutiny. I think the CREDO study, which is widely held as excellent research and is the best thing we currently have available, should not be dismissed because of one woman's concerns, which were investigated and refuted two times. I did find another piece of research by MATHEMATICA. <a href="http://www.mathematica-mpr.com/publications/PDFs/education/cmo_final.pdf" rel='nofollow'>http://www.mathematica-mpr.com/publications/PDFs/education/cmo_final.pdf</a> There research repeats what CREDO found; Charter schools are not better than public schools. One difference was that Mathematica looked only at charters managed by non-profit companies.
godsbreath64
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 10:09 p.m.
Thanks for making the point you oppose with Condi Rice's war pedagogic, but we really didn't need the help.
DonBee
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 10:06 p.m.
spambot1 - Wrong - read the public rebuttal on the Stanford site by an other professor. A rare thing in a university. The statistical methods used are flawed and provide a boost to the public school scores. Wrong again because there are 20 or so studies that show that moving schools reduces progress in the next school year and the Stanford study neither controls for this impact, nor do they account for it in the numbers. Wrong again because the Stanford study shows students catching up in year two - similar to changing public schools and excelling in the third year (which is contrary to studies of public to public school transfers). All in all the fact that the MEA used a known flawed study as the center piece of their campaign and you and other MEA members continue to flog it is astounding. There are NO good studies on the impact of charters available to review. Every single study has a number of flaws. Both promoters and detractors have paid to have studies done - both sided created biased, bad studies. So far I have reviewed 13 studies. Want to offer another one - go for it.
SpamBot1
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 9:43 p.m.
What is "better service"? Stanford University found that public schools are superior to charter schools as measured by standardized tests.
MIKE
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 9:35 p.m.
"My comment says if your choice is to tap the keys rather than simply spend quality time on the holiday with your children, then you look like party does come before the children. Not even you can overcome that." Sounds like a pot/kettle thing there. And which party do you assume I belong to? (hint, it doesn't start with and "R") You miss the point that if public schools don't excel, there should be numerous alternatives.
MIKE
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 8:49 p.m.
godsbreath, I take your comment to say you DON'T have children in Ann Arbor schools? So what is your interest here? Until recently I had 2 children in the public school system. I recently moved one to private school, due to my misgivings on the education she was receiving.
godsbreath64
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 8:11 p.m.
Send your kids to the moon if that is your choice but leave the rest and the constitutional Michigan alone. You all wouldn't be so giddy on the web on Christmas if you had the children in the first place. It is your choice to be overwhelmingly on the wrong side of this. So enjoy.
Chris Carpenter
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 8:01 p.m.
Great point Mike. Happy parents won't switch if their kids are getting a great education and the school is giving good customer service.
MIKE
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 7:51 p.m.
No, I want MY precious child to get a quality education. You are the one worried about politics, not me.
godsbreath64
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 7:43 p.m.
You can embroider all you want. The fact still remains you are politicizing our precious children. Nothing more.
MIKE
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 7:13 p.m.
If teachers and principals had always focused on providing a top notch education, they would have nothing to worry about today. Charter schools would simply not exist. There, now you're up to speed.
godsbreath64
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 5:24 p.m.
It drains the resources the honest education needs in order(arguendo) to underwrite their competitors. Sorry. That is hardly "nothing to worry about." Get yourself up to speed.
godsbreath64
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 5:08 p.m.
Merry Christmas to all these root4scrooges and Snyder's resegregation of Michigan! With their swiping of the season done for the year, how they have any energy to write today is anybody's guess. Thank you annarbor.com for giving even their Christmas something to fur: a good argument for turning our backs on the children when they should be bulwarked from the party-before-countries.
godsbreath64
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 7:57 p.m.
I knew you would show yourself if I waited long enough, Bob :D
Basic Bob
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 6:12 p.m.
Anyone concerned about re-segregation should support equal funding and equal school choices for all students, especially in the districts hardest hit by white flight: Detroit, Flint, Pontiac, Ypsilanti, etc. They should back that up with strong opposition to "hold harmless" school funding in the rich communities such as Ann Arbor, Birmingham, and Bloomfield Hills, who have turned their backs on the children who really need help. The people who oppose these policies label themselves as "progressive", perhaps to distinguish themselves from real liberals who still care about the downtrodden.
David Briegel
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 4:55 p.m.
Students and parents have plenty of choices. They just want the rest of us to pay for their choices! We already pay and they just want to take their ball (money) and go play where they want. There are countless options available and you can just just like the gov has.
Billy Bob Schwartz
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 5:41 p.m.
I believe that this is what Ron Reagan said, approximately: If you don't like the local public schools, then send your kids to a private school. Sounds reasonable to me!
maallen
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 11:11 p.m.
@godsbreath64, Show me in the constitution where public charter schools are not allowed...I'll be waiting.
godsbreath64
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 10:24 p.m.
Proofreading caricature ... The privilege of it all. You can't pin a bow on the decimation, if not destruction of municipalities and expect a kiss. Catch up if you can. The constitution charges defense of the public, adult or children, from such a plutocratic siege itself. Got a problem with the constitution, go find a country who doesn't defend theirs. There is quite a market these days, so chop-chop.
maallen
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 10:06 p.m.
@godsbreath64 When you know your history facts, then we can have an intelligent debate. DId our founding fathers, presidents through Abraham Lincoln go to a "public" school or did they attend private schools, if they went to school at all? In 1867 the Department came into existence. Until that time the school system comprised mainly of private schools, not public schools. Oh, by the way, "ma" in my "surname" as you call it doesn't stand for Montana. The abbreviation for Montana is MT, not MO. But I did notice you got your geography right so the school system helped you somewhat.
maallen
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 8:38 p.m.
godsbreath64, Oh that's right, the government knows what's best for children, and not the parents. Let the government dictate where the child goes instead of letting the parent choose where to send their child. Let the government "protect unsuspecting children" and not the parent. Go government!
godsbreath64
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 8:05 p.m.
'tis the season for false narratives. fa-lala-lala-la, lala-di-da ..... Adult students makes choices for themselves. This is about if you are on the side of the civil society's history protecting unsuspecting children from The Party of High Crimes, War Crimes and resegregation. Sweep your shambled street before imposing on and tracking our precious children. You write like you are on the other side, theirs.
maallen
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 5:42 p.m.
What choices do parents have? Send them to a private school? Sure, it works for families that can afford a private school. It's about time that parents have a choice in where they send their kids to school. Instead of the government dictating to a parent where they have to send their kids. Can you imagine the outrage if the government did that to students who go to college? So why must one accept that at the lower education?
dairy6
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 4:36 p.m.
That's fine have all the charter schools you want. Make them all for profit and give them no state money at all. Problem solved. If Snyder and his cronies are truely for a free market economy and less government then it shouldn't be a problem for them. If you going to talk the talk then walk the walk.
Billy Bob Schwartz
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 5:39 p.m.
DonBee: Do I understand your points correctly? I will paraphrase. Detroit Detroit Detroit Detroit Detroit Detroit Detroit Detroit Detroit Detroit Detroit Detroit Detroit Detroit Detroit Detroit Detroit Detroit Detroit Detroit Detroit Detroit Detroit Detroit Detroit Detroit Detroit Detroit Detroit Detroit Detroit Detroit Detroit Detroit Detroit Detroit Detroit Detroit Detroit Detroit Detroit Detroit Detroit Detroit, and of course, Detroit. Did I leave anything out?
DonBee
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 11:57 a.m.
dairy6 - We pay plenty for schools in this state, most parents in Detroit and the other failed districts don't have the resources that Bill Gates offers. Jim Thompson offered to get out his own wallet and build schools. The American Federation of Teachers (AFT) and the MEA both got so angry, Mr Thompson gave up. Given that result, do you expect others to come into the state? There are lots of places that welcome money for education, Michigan did not.
dairy6
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 9 p.m.
If you all think it's such a great idea then get out your wallet and pay for it. That's what Bill Gates does. If republicans care so much about less government, the free market, and educating the poor then they would fund the schools themselves and find a way to make a profit doing it. I'm not sure why this isn't happening more but maybe it's too hard without tax payer dollars. Funny thing is, I thought republicans were all about hard work. So as I said it shouldn't be a problem for you guys get out your checkbook and get back to work saving the world with the free market.
godsbreath64
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 8:27 p.m.
Because, Carpender it isn't great for anything but indoctrinating the next generations of party-before-country robots. The Party of High Crimes, War Crimes and resegregation is the problem. It is within their own American Government classes that you will find success "lacking".
Chris Carpenter
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 7:59 p.m.
The states pays $8000 either way. Why not send it to a charter school where the kids will get a great education instead of a decent one. If public schools did a great job at educating kids and customer service with families, no one would want to switch to charter schools. Something is lacking, resulting in familes wanting to leave.
DonBee
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 5:32 p.m.
dairy6 - And trap over 100,000 children in failed districts like Detroit. Merry Christmas to them and you sir.
braggslaw
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 4:07 p.m.
No credibility as a member of the mea
Andy Price
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 10:38 p.m.
I feel the same way as braggslaw, only about corporations and the politicians they buy.
SpamBot1
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 9:40 p.m.
In what world does an educator have no credibility in a discussion regarding education?
DonBee
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 6:28 p.m.
braggslaw - I would suggest she, as a principal, is no longer a member of the MEA, but works in a building that is dominated by members and as a former member is probably very sympathetic to their cause. But most principals, having moved to management are no longer MEA members.
cette
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 4:27 p.m.
LOL just a homemaker...
cette
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 4:05 p.m.
If there was evidence charters were so much better, it would be out there. In a heartbeat. There isn't, and the silence speaks volumes. All they are saying, is the grass is greener over here, where we've never had grass before.
Sparty
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 1:31 p.m.
DonBee, So it's solely your opinion on the studies we should consider when you state they are "flawed"? No expert opinion? No factual links? Only you stating that they disagree with your opinion? Thought so.
DonBee
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 11:54 a.m.
Rob - Go back thru the chain on charters on this blog. I have written volumes on the issues with the studies. I actually took the time to find, read and do the math, have you? Or do you just take the MEA cliff notes and follow those Rob?
Sparty
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 10:55 p.m.
DonBee, who has said that the surveys you reference are flawed and biased? What are your sources? Links and facts please?
godsbreath64
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 8:19 p.m.
your echo chamber investigations are just that, Carpenter.
Chris Carpenter
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 7:57 p.m.
There is any evidence that charter schools do worse either. I have talked to parents of kids in charter schools who told me, the school pays more attention to interacting with the parents and take feedback from the parents into consideration. Instead of the usual public schools who have tons of paperwork and rules to follow and always say : "We are the experts - we know better than you parents."
Sandy Castle
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 6:57 p.m.
The evidence that charters are better comes from the high number of students leaving the public school systems and not returning. Parents who have left one school won't hesitate to leave another if their needs aren't being met.
DonBee
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 5:31 p.m.
cette - I can show you 7 studies that say charters are better (and 6 that say they are no better or worse) but all of them are biased and flawed. No one has under taken a truly unbiased look at charters. I wish they would, then we could settle this once and for all. Mr. Briegel - I would submit that the kinds of salaries that AAPS (and some other districts) are paying their administrators makes the public schools a lot closer to private for profit schools. OBTW - charter schools are not allowed to be for profit, but they are allowed to hire for profit management companies. So like the administration in Ann Arbor that seems to be very for profit, some charters seem to have for profit management. I will submit there is one difference - the charter management companies are honest about being for profit.
godsbreath64
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 5:15 p.m.
greener than the Grinches posting here already.
David Briegel
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 4:51 p.m.
The profits are sure greener!
thecompound
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 3:57 p.m.
"there is no evidence that charter schools overall are more successful than public schools" Is there evidence that they are less successful? What about the child that is failing for whatever reason or being bullied and nothing is being done? Or parents that are trapped in the "principal wont do anything/higher ups say they need to work with the principal" spiral? This whole letter is how losing students will FINANCIALLY hurt AAPS, but does not seem to care if AAPS is not working for the child. They should just suck it up so AAPS (or any public school for that matter) doesn't lose their funding that is tied to the child?
cette
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 6:29 p.m.
I don't necessarily agree with that. It's the management of the situation that's the problem.
aamom
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 5:27 p.m.
AAPS has school of choice. Try a new school. If you switch and still have a problem, odds are good that the problem probably is more with the child than the school.
David Briegel
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 3:45 p.m.
This is just more hating by the ruling elites. Driving funds toward their profit making friends. Repaying their supporters and harming those who support their opponents. Destroying public education has been a goal for years! Education and the educators are the enemy. The children are a pawn in their game!
Steven Harper Piziks
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 2:46 a.m.
"Happy people don't switch"? Oh, come on! That's not true at all. People can feel fine with their current situation until someone else comes along and convinces them to switch. Advertisers have been doing this for decades. Now the GOP and their for-profit, money-making friends are trying to do with the charter schools.
godsbreath64
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 11:09 p.m.
So you can seat only the political elite at the table. Please.
Chris Carpenter
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 7:53 p.m.
I am sure the ruling elite is friends with the charter school people. You must really believe in conspiracy theories. If public schools did an excellent job of educating kids and customer service with parents - the parents would not want to switch to charter schools. Happy people do not switch.
godsbreath64
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 6:30 p.m.
Recommit to the constitutional Michigan. Governors would be again excused for the charge dereliction in play today. Market and public confidence returns, but not the party-before-country's stale playbook. The children of the originally constitutional Michigan are under siege of plutocracy. Would you like a truck load of tonic to go along with all of that gin?
DonBee
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 5:27 p.m.
Mr. Briegel - Please provide me with alternatives within the reach of most families in Detroit. I would love to have a list sir. Right now, we are keeping the children in Detroit and other failed districts down. Do you have a solution (other than dump trucks full of cash?) to fix these districts?
David Briegel
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 4:51 p.m.
Gee Bob, I thought you were speaking of the Banksters in your first paragraph above. I think it's a pretty accurate description of the motives and intentions of the ruling party and their leader. Happy Holidays!
Basic Bob
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 4:01 p.m.
I think this is exactly what Rob meant by sarcastic and mean-spirited.
Sparty
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 3:37 p.m.
Thanks for a professional, expert opinion on charter schools Ms Loomis. I'm sure there will be plenty of sarcastic mean spirited replies, as that is what AA.com boards are filled with lately, but we also have many generous, thoughtful, experts and other reasonable individuals offering insight as well. Bravo!
godsbreath64
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 9:44 p.m.
Um, compound? "what is her expert opinion?" Lets see. Her bio follows the piece. That covers her ipressive expertise. The latter would be her opinion. I do believe the thread titled as such at the top of it. Yes, it did. Your other questions may have answered themselves with this little "did you know" tutorial.
braggslaw
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 6:06 p.m.
Nothing mean spiirited when fighting for choices for your children
thecompound
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 3:59 p.m.
What is her expert opinion? That there is no evidence according to her? Why are there no unbiased studies?
Top Cat
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 3:30 p.m.
Translation....Parents should not have more choices for their children's education because that could jeopardize my cushy salary and benefits.
Steven Harper Piziks
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 2:43 a.m.
The "choices" shouldn't come from people for whom profit is the primary motivation.
Mark Wilson
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 11:16 p.m.
@David Briegel "You just want the rest of us to pay for your choice." That's exactly what we who want a choice do when there are no charter schools, e.g. pay for your choice of public schools?
Chris Carpenter
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 7:51 p.m.
I totally agree. Competition drives excellence and customer service. If the schools did an excellent job educating students, then parents would not want to switch them to a charter school.
maallen
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 5:51 p.m.
@Briegel, Sounds so familiar? Hmmm...where have I heard this before? Oh wait, health care/insurance....that's it. Weren't you the one that said all of us should be paying/"helping" others for when it comes to health insurance. But now when it comes to education, how dare "I" have to pay for someone else. Can't have it both ways. And please explain the "plenty of choices" that parents have when it comes to education.
David Briegel
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 4:58 p.m.
Actually, there are plenty of choices. You just want the rest of us to pay for your choice.
Basic Bob
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 3:29 p.m.
Oh, "for profit" companies must be bad. Compare them to what non-profits and government entities pay their CEO's and executives. The chief of UMHS, AAPS, BCBSMI, etc., all make fabulous amounts of money, guaranteed contracts, and have to make no commitment to maintain profitability for individual shareholders - instead it is distributed to the already wealthy folks running the business in the form of bonuses and ever-increasing salaries. But seriously, our school districts have opened the door to competition through their inability to do what they are best at - educating our young people. After decades of shortages of engineers and other skilled workers, our school systems fail to produce. With our aging population, it is imperative that the few remaining workers are innovative, competent, and most of all productive. Instead we got unskilled dropouts, short-sighted bean-counters, and more teachers than we will ever need. While public schools in many parts of the country are a last resort, the heavy-handed tactics of both the unions and school administrators in Michigan have encouraged people to look for alternative outside our valued public systems. Artificial limits by public union-backed legislation will just propel us into national poverty.
DonBee
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 3:11 p.m.
Ms. Loomis - Sorry, but if you lived in Detroit or another failing school district, you would want options for your children. Living in Ann Arbor means you get the best of the best in public education in Michigan. I would love to see actual studies that are unbiased that prove your point on charters being no better, especially in districts like Detroit. I have now run thru 13 studies that people have pointed out and they are all biased a flawed - from either the supporters or the detractors of charter schools. If you really want no more charters, then volunteer your professional capabilities in Detroit to bring one of the schools there up to the standards in Ann Arbor. That would be a true Christmas present to those students.
Steven Harper Piziks
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 6:17 p.m.
Well, Don, much as I would like to help all students in Michigan, I'm pretty much confined to helping the 165 students in my classroom. I help 165 students every day. What are you doing to help?
Billy Bob Schwartz
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 5:27 p.m.
DonBee...So the solution to the problems of a few larger cities and their schools is to turn loose all the education-for-profit people all over the state and wreck the functioning districts??
DonBee
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 11:52 a.m.
Mr Piziks - Go back thru the stories on this topic over the last month. Others have posted 7 or 8 links. I went to the library at the University to get a couple, because they are not on the public side of the web. They are all biased - both sides. No, Detroit is not the only district, but it and a dozen more are trapped in failure. Those parents need a chance for their children. Don't they? As a member of the MEA is it not your job to help all children have a future?
Steven Harper Piziks
Mon, Dec 26, 2011 : 2:41 a.m.
Detroit isn't the only district in the state, Don, even if everyone likes to talk as if it were. I would like to see the 13 studies you're talking about. Do you have a link? And if it's through the Mackinaw group, don't bother. They're as unbiased as a bribed judge.
cette
Sun, Dec 25, 2011 : 4:06 p.m.
Don Bee, did you actually say that AAPS was the best of the best.... I need to lay down for a while...