AnnArborite

Fri, Jan 15, 2010 : 10:25 a.m.

Eliminate jobs? Close School buildings? Mid-Year layoffs? This sounds like the leadership of Scott Graden is less than effective. No one thinks about the mismanagement of the superintendent. I call for HIM to resign. Let him be laid off. I have a child that attends Houghton Elementary. I would be so sad to see her teacher or any teacher let go. The thought about laying off teachers mid-year really bothers me - especially the tender young age of students just beginning - they eagerly attach to their teachers - and is a traumatic shift if they are removed. Please everyone, stop and think about the children.

michaywe

Thu, Jan 14, 2010 : 10:23 p.m.

Saline is lucky to have Scot Graden. It's apparent his leadership is responsible for getting teachers back to the table. Saline teachers union and their leadership have earned my respect for recognizing the seriousness of the situation and stepping up to the plate. In exchange for the unions continued cooperation and the administrations sacrifices, next time I'm asked to approve a millage increase, I will!

chalkboardjoe

Thu, Jan 14, 2010 : 9:39 p.m.

@ Steve Norton-First, thank you for your very well articulated posts and efforts to provide facts. With that said, do you, or does any body else have any idea what the union due structure is (flat rate, variable rate, dependent on contract, dependent on position-teacher, custodian, etc., varies by district) and what the rate(s) are? And does anyone know what the financials look like for district unions, county unions, state unions, etc.? I know this is off-topic from the article, but I believe it is very relevant to the bigger story. If money is taken off the table, keep more in the pocket of all the employees who are represented by unions--and less in the pockets of the union organizations and infrastructure (those recent and repeated MEA ads have to cost something). The employees earned it. So, why should they suffer?

The Grinch

Thu, Jan 14, 2010 : 7:26 p.m.

Instine: You wrote: "We then will not need local teachers with master degrees." Sorry, but the only way to read this is that you think teachers do not need Master's degrees. It may not be what you meant, but it is what you wrote. You say I wrote: "distance learning is not a viable option." This is a gross misrepsentation and oversimplification of what I wrote. I wrote: "I can tell you that it is far easier to give quality instruction to X number of students in a classroom setting than it is to give it to X number of students in the DL setting." In other words, it takes me far less time to instruct 30 students in a classroom, and I can respond to their questions far more quickly than I can 30 DL students. To put it differently, assuming that the teachers are paid at the same rate, classroom instruction is more efficient and, therefore, cheaper, than DL instruction. I also wrote: "DL simply is not an appropriate instructional mode for many and perhaps for most students. So, as we move to the utopia of DL instruction, what do we do with the students who need the classroom setting?" You might not like this statement, but studies and student performance bears it out. Many DL students get left in the dust in DL classes. They need the structure, discipline, and face-to-face contact of classroom instruction. And I am certainly not saying that we should not work with DL. But I am saying that it is foolish to believe that it is appropriate for an entire segment of a school's curriculum to be placed in DL. I am also saying that it is equally foolish to believe that all students should be forced to take DL. Yes, we should use the technology for those students who are capable of working in it and then only in those disciplines where it makes sense. But to believe that DL is some form of silver bullet that will solve any school district's financial problems is fantasy and little more.

Anonymous Due to Bigotry

Thu, Jan 14, 2010 : 12:44 p.m.

The idea of trying a distance learning experiment with something critical like math seems quite crazy. It would make more sense to start with something else, which makes me wonder if the whole idea wasn't just posturing in order to force something else to happen. I really have to wonder how well distance learning would work for the "average" or below average k12 student. Especially the "at risk" students seem likely to just take it as an opportunity to skip class. (No, I'm not a Saline resident.)

Ine-Stine

Wed, Jan 13, 2010 : 10:34 p.m.

To The qrinch...I did not mean to imply that the online teachers not have masters degrees. What I meant is that it would not be necessary for the teacher overseeing the classroom to have them,which in turn it would seem would lower the overhead cost of teachers salaries. I can see your anger at such a suggestion, since you are a teacher however, you say you have taught DL classes for ten years,yet you say distance learning is not a viable option. How have you gotten away with it this long? I guess there should be a reavaluation of all the online classes taught by many of the colleges. I know it is extremely hard to embrace new ideas...but the technology is here. The bottom line would be the test score results of the students in this type of program. I truly believe if we want to be forward thinking, and unselfish then, at least some pilot programs of this concept should be incorporated into our educational system.

queenmom

Wed, Jan 13, 2010 : 6:12 p.m.

Thank you Steve Norton for providing some FACTS and "Grinch" for pointing out annarbor.com's feeding of the teacher bashing frenzy by those uninformed about school policies, funding, and law. Perhaps those in charge of annarbor.com should consider running a series of informative articles about these topics so the public can form educated opinions about the need for reform of educational funding and the unfortunate but necessary cuts all school districts are going to have to continue to make. Also, please reflect on these questions: Why does everyone feel they are qualified to judge education and teachers? Simply because everyone went to a school sometime in their life? Do we do that to other professions where individuals hold Master's degrees and more? Nurse bash? Dentist bash? Accountant bash? I think not.

YpsiLivin

Wed, Jan 13, 2010 : 5:42 p.m.

Just an observation. The root of the problem with our state's school funding is this: one out of every four jobs lost in the US during this recession was lost in Michigan. It would take a period of at least eight years of sustained job growth at 100,000 jobs per year to return Michigan to the employment rate it notched in 2000. That's just to get us back to square one. Michigan's lost nearly a million jobs this decade. We cannot fund our schools the way we have in the past. There is no going back to what we had because what we had is permanently gone and no millage is going to change that. We need to do things quite differently in the future and the faster we start working on the future, the easier it's going to be to make the changes we need to make.

The Grinch

Wed, Jan 13, 2010 : 4:42 p.m.

As someone who has been teaching distance learning classes for nearly 10 years, I can tell you that it is far easier to give quality instruction to X number of students in a classroom setting than it is to give it to X number of students in the DL setting. So I fail to see how moving from classroom instruction to DL instruction saves any money. Second, it is also clear to me, and numerous studeis have born this out, that DL simply is not an appropriate instructional mode for many and perhaps for most students. So, as we move to the utopia of DL instruction, what do we do with the students who need the classroom setting? Third, I fail to understnad, if the DL teachers are not employed by the district (an implication of lne-stine's post), how it is possible for there to be any form of quality control over the teaching or over the curriculum they teach. And if those teachers don't have Master's degrees (usually in the discipline they teach--what a concept--a requirement for subject matter expertise in the subject being taught), why would one think that the instruction they are providing is "quality"? Finally, it is the State of Michigan that requires teachers to have Master's degrees or to be working toward one. If you think that an inappropriate requirement, I suggest you write your state legislator. In the meantime, whatever and whoever is doing the instruction in schools accredited by and receiving funding from the state, the teachers are going to need Master's degrees. Ahh, but articles such as this give the teacher bashers more reason to bash teachers unabated while AnnArbor.com looks on.

Ine-Stine

Wed, Jan 13, 2010 : 1:42 p.m.

C'mon people on line education in a structured classroom is the future. You do not scare everyone by starting this concept with mathematic classes however,History, and Social studies are a good start to show how well the concept will work. We then will not need local teachers with master degrees. And the online teachers can be the best of the best with tried and proven concepts.

braggslaw

Wed, Jan 13, 2010 : 1:13 p.m.

Tough times = tough choices. I am confident that the children of Saline can get a quality education after restructuring. The super-majority of the budget is associated with teachers' pay and benefits. It would seem rational to cut the biggest expense. As a taxpayer, I am not willing to pay for cradle-grave benefits for teachers. This is especially true now, as the average income in Michigan has fallen off a cliff. Teachers are not a protected class of people.

GoblueBeatOSU

Wed, Jan 13, 2010 : 12:41 p.m.

Guess I should start by saying I'm sure many aren't going to like my suggestions, but these times demand significant changes. First Saline Schools has to significantly change the medical benefits the teachers are receiving. The medical insurance cost that the teachers pay for as a family need to be increase to $500/month, maybe more. At $500/month it would still be a lot less than employees at major corporations pay in the area. Saline Teachers would still have a great medical plan at lower cost than other people making the same salary. This next thought will cause a lot of outrage. School busing either needs to be eliminated or it needs to be a pay to ride type structure. If it is a pay to ride the fees collected need to cover 100% of the busing cost. I fear the cost of busing is going to skyrocket over the next five years. I doubt any school system is going to be able to support busing the way it is today. Maybe I'm wrong, but just rising fuel costs suggests I'm not. Saline would be better to sell the buses now when they can get some value for them. To hold the buses and then to try to sell them when ever other school system puts their buses on the market will mean Saline will recover very little value. Maybe I'm wrong, only time will tell. By changing medical benefits and busing I believe that would cover most of the budget problems for this year, unless the last numbers I saw changed. What is important is these two changes would save most of the teachers jobs. Saline teachers are IMO the best. I would hate to see any of them go. The next step would be to vote out everyone in Lansing. As Steve Norton, MIPFS pointed out this is not a local problem. IMO a complete lack of leadership in Lansing created this. Lets not forget Lansing also killed the Promise Grants for college. At a time with eduction should be the number one priority Lansing is killing it. When we replace the people in Lansing we can't just move them to another position. Dillon is a great example. Dillon is behind the school funding problem. It is Dillon's elected job to work with everyone in Lansing to ensure schools have proper funding. He has failed. To elect Dillon to any position would be a mistake. Again IMO. I know these suggests hurt, but I don't see any other way to save the teachers.

Steve Norton, MIPFS

Wed, Jan 13, 2010 : 11:48 a.m.

I'm not a Saline resident, but I wanted to point out a few general things: What school districts spend on buildings and renovations is legally separate from what they can use to pay for operations (salaries, etc.). The two funding sources cannot be mingled - there are criminal penalties for that. It's also true that a local school district can choose to tax itself to build and renovate, but not to pay for teachers. With the exception of the countywide millage, voted down last November, operating funding is controlled solely by the State. So whatever Saline has or has not spent on buildings doesn't really affect their operating budget, except for whatever it costs to run the buildings. And the cost of actually running a school building is a small fraction of the total cost: most of the money is in teacher and support salaries, supplies, and so on that would be needed regardless of where the kids were put. But newer buildings, and updated mechanical systems, can save a lot on energy and equipment maintenance costs. The other thing that's worth remembering is that in Michigan the school districts are totally separate from the cities or town they are located in. They levy their own taxes and have their own budgets. So what the city of Saline (or Ann Arbor) does with its budget has no connection with what the schools do. Moreover, while a city levies its own property taxes to run city government, property taxes for schools are all set by the state. So the 6 mills Saline residents pay for the State Education Tax, and the 18 mills businesses pay on commercial property, will not change no matter what happens to the SAS budget. There is really very little we can do at the local level to control school budgets, and the one major option was voted down in November. So the only choices we have now are how we cut spending.

Go Blue

Wed, Jan 13, 2010 : 10:17 a.m.

And Saline HAD to have that state-of-the art, luxurious new high school.......and all the work revamping the other school buildings just had to be done. Spending like there is no tomorrow without the slightest concern. And now the students and teachers have to pay the price. Where are the priorities here? Students are more important than a building. As usual, the fiddler is playing while everything around is burning. There is no concern in Saline to tighten the belt and stop the blatant spending, spending, spending. One would think these are high times with money just rolling in hand over fist. And of course, Saline could just be one of the few, if not the only, entity in Washtenaw County that continues to RAISE property taxes!!!!! Maybe its time for the employees of Saline to do what other cities are doing - take a pay cut, trim off some of those benefits that are above and beyond, and leave the benefits to the students intact. If teachers have to take a hit, it should be an across the board cut in the city - not just the school system. Priorities in Saline are out of whack just as the free falling spending is.

Mike

Wed, Jan 13, 2010 : 9:35 a.m.

People that believe that teachers are overpaid are sadly mistaken. Let me preface this comment by stating I am not a teacher - I worked in an office for over 30 years not in the schools. I recently retired and now substitute in schools in Wayne and Washtenaw counties. From what I have seen, teachers work tirelessly in their classrooms often having to supply materials, at their own expense, because the district does not have money to provide the necessary supplies. They purchase books and other educational materials for the classroom again because the districts do not have funds? How many of you must purchase your own supplies for where you work? People seem to forget that teachers are professional workers. They are required by the state to have a college degree, and to pursue additional college work as requirements for keeping their jobs. Are you required to go back to college for classes to keep your job? We entrust them with our most precious things, our children, and then refuse to provide them with the necessary resources to do the job. I agree that maybe we should consider looking at healthcare benefits - many employees have made sacrifices by paying more for their healthcare. Parents need to become more involved in the education process - volunteering to help in the schools as well as the extracurricular activities such as sports. Booster clubs could be used to raise money for in-class and out of class activities. I believe most teachers would welcome the extra involvement of parents in the education of their children. The State of Michigan has its priorities wrong - education should be the last area we cut funds in. Educational spending is one of the few areas that people can actually vote on funding - when people are financially strapped they will vote no on education - only because they have no alternatives. Maybe the Sate should open all areas of the budget to voting on by residents of Michigan - my guess is schools would be one of the last areas for cuts. After all, the students are our future.

Bob

Wed, Jan 13, 2010 : 9:34 a.m.

People keep buying all of this imported crap and it is going to get worse.

ez12c

Wed, Jan 13, 2010 : 9:06 a.m.

It is disheartening to read about the troubles our local schools have just trying to teach OUR children. Eliminating a subject or an extracarricular activity harms the experience. We simply cannot put any part of the education of our youth on the chopping block. That said, everybody must also keep in mind that these 600 staff members are part of our community. It is not hard to argue that they all have a hand in shaping our community's future. Cutting their salaries, inferring they are "rich" and have the "gold standard" is not fair. They have mortgages, they pay DTE just like you do. They shop at Busch's, ACO, and Briarwood. They buy their cars from Crispin. They are part of us. Cut their salary, lessen their impact on our kids, tell them that everyone else's mortgage is more important than theirs and they should get less and do more can all be summed up by saying "WRONG". Sorry, cutting the teachers isn't the answer, come up with another idea on how to fund school and teach the next generation. You can't do it alone, I can't do it alone but as a community we must solve this problem.

Happy Puppy

Wed, Jan 13, 2010 : 8:56 a.m.

Close Houghton and Union. I know it will cost money to close Union now, but the savings will make it worth it in the future. Try getting people to volunteer for the move to Liberty. I have worked in private industry where we moved locations and we worked on the weekends for free to get it done. I can't believe there aren't plenty of people in Saline who wouldn't help move everything from Union to Liberty if it would save millions of dollars in the years to come.

Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball

Wed, Jan 13, 2010 : 7:51 a.m.

The record will likely show that salaries and benefits were on the increase over the last 10 years while all other school programs (except Technology) were flat or have effectively lost budget dollars. Benefits for teachers should reflect average Michigan worker benefits - the total package that teachers get is entirely too high: gold standard health insurance, months of vacation, paid educational development, and more. NO one in Michigan gets a deal nearly as good. Michigan families (with super high foreclosures, super high unemployment, bankruptcies, and plunging property values, etc etc.) simply do not have the money to pay for all this. The total job loss in Michigan is shocking - under Granholm - 1 million Michigan jobs will have been lost. And that does not include all the salary cut backs and all the "under-employed" either.

MIjayceesB1

Wed, Jan 13, 2010 : 4:52 a.m.

It is wonderful to see local news reported in a timely way in 2010. Subjects such as these require an unbiased free press. A free press continues to force honest negotiations, or at the very least mostly honest negotiations from our public officials. How did the public pay for football and band in the distant past? Booster clubs were the name of the game and had very strong community leaders volunteer to raise funds to provide these opportunities to every child. The PTA has been a source for such fundraising and will continue to do so. Kiwanis, Rotary, Jaycee organizations and others will need to be rebuilt and/or strengthened by the newest generation of adults to make this happen. Ideas for the committees to consider from parents in our district include.....A two year pay limit for every single employee of the Saline Area Schools (perhaps $73,000?)......A two year stoppage of extra-curricular staff salaries - make these positions volunteer.....Re-organizing grades and closing schools in such a way that every 1-6 grader has recess every day (after all, recess is free).....Online educations with the Certified teachers from our district for those subjects which make sense......and many more great ideas are out being spoken of in our community. We must have constructive ideas brought to the bargaining tables. The time for honest professional negotiations is now. The time for the press to provide unbiased information has never been more important.