Local teachers considering allowing Michigan Education Association to pursue 'crisis activities'

snapshot

Sat, Mar 26, 2011 : 2:01 a.m.

Teachers are being asked to give up a few bucks and unions are making a war out of it. Teachers not in agreement should voice their opinion to the union leaders or this could get pretty ugly in the eyes of the public. Remember, union leaders are paid professionals who may never have set foot in a K-12 classroom. Does that make them mercenaries? No wonder they want to go to war over a few bucks. They're not in it for the money, or the kids, it's the power and the challenge. Teachers and kids are just pawns in the game.

fos24

Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 11:44 p.m.

A few bucks? Try 2 to 3 thousand dollars per teacher...There's already been a mandatory 3% cut for teachers to pay for current retiree pensions, as well as decreases in quality of health care and increases in co-pays. Many districts have gone without raises for multiple years, as well as no contract renewals. The state hasn't been responsible with the money over the years and finding a scapegoat is the easiest way out. In the grand scheme isn't even about teachers. The state doesn't want to take the time to dig in and research the best ways to deal with the problems it's facing. If corporations and privatization happen, everyone will suffer, except the man cashing the checks. The research shows that privatization costs equally as much or more than union paid employees. Smokescreens everywhere...

eom

Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 3:07 a.m.

This isn't about "a few bucks". This is about a great many things. Your simplification of the problem is absurd. If it were as simple as me giving up a "few bucks" we'd be clear for takeoff...and out of this financial disaster. The problem is complex, complicated and impossible to solve by teachers giving up more than we already have. We have and will continue to give concessions...paying more for healthcare - check, contributing to retirement - check, paycut - check, larger class sizes with higher expectations, less funding and more curriculum - check, paying for our continuing education out of pocket in order to get pay cuts - check....I am so sad that people have such anger toward us...we aren't the enemy, no matter what you may believe, we really aren't.

snapshot

Sat, Mar 26, 2011 : 1:52 a.m.

If public employee unions don't enough care about the kids to give up a few bucks and go on strike, maybe the state will terminate them and hire new, more dedicated teachers. As they are technically state employees, Governor Snyder may declare a state emergency, issues an executive order, and call out the national guard to man the classrooms while schools are re staffed with non union teachers. Could happen!!!! What's the state constitution say that would stop him? We may as well go "Third World" all the way. Teach the children well.

Lisa

Sat, Mar 26, 2011 : 2:12 p.m.

Simply because I respect myself enough to stand up to fight for my current wages and benefits (which are a cut!) does not mean I don't care about education and my students. I am not a slave nor am I brainwashed. I can think for myself and I believe I earn my pay.

snapshot

Sat, Mar 26, 2011 : 1:53 a.m.

make that "don't care enough".........

fos24

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 10:01 p.m.

It's ignorant to minimize it as just a strike for money. Anyone who does their research, is aware that public sector employees of equal or higher education make less than private sector employees. The reason the schools in the county stand so strong is because collaboration has taken place (in order to make more sound decisions), employees have been compensated competitively, and the community has been supportive. If those things cease, so too will the quality of the schools in the area. It's true that children our the future, so it's important to maintain quality learning environments. That can't be done if funding cuts continue. The conditions in an academic environment have to be conducive for children to learn. Cuts have gone on nearly every year for at least the last 10. Textbook shortages, class sizes growing, programs being cut, and the cuts continue. Only this time it's not to balance the budget, but to pad pockets. The attacks on teachers can continue and some will find other careers, which respect them, support them, and compensate them fairly. What of the future workforce? Why would they put themselves under attack? If one researches the direction our government plans on taking, one would likely see a path leading to the demise of quality public schools. Our mental health programs and systems were destroyed first. Will our schools be next?

fos24

Mon, Mar 28, 2011 : 11:32 p.m.

DonBee..Though that may have been some of the motivation, the majority of that money was funneled into building prisons. If you've walk the streets of Ann Arbor and Ypsilanti the last 15 years or so, you've noticed an increase in the number of street people who lack the skills necessary to be independent. Mental health wasn't strictly institutions, but also included support networks (many of which are now gone). Now, the money is to be funneled into business, instead of education. I don't see the union as being wrong for standing their ground when attempts to cut funding for education have gone on for over a decade and all of the attacks have been targeting the teachers. The only one standing up for the teachers, aside from the informed public (which are few), has been the unions. The level of education teachers must obtain and maintain has been greatly undervalued and the costs there continue to rise. Typically the ones who speculate and complain to the greatest degree are those who have no background in the field and are upset with paying taxes. Taxes fund many of the things we need, one of those being our future. If wages aren't comparable with the private sector on some level, the quality of educators will decrease, as those in the field will look to other means to care for their families. With all of the propaganda against teachers and how they've depleted our system, it's hard to keep an eye on the big picture and what is potentially happening. If the schools are privatized, the curriculum will be corporately dictated. There's a real risk of the underprivileged losing out here and I think there needs to be more awareness of this. People may not care, as long as their kid gets an education, but an uneducated population becomes everyone's problem. I'd love to see a comparison of the funding taken away from education vs. the funding to education in the state of Michigan over the last 20 years, along with inflationary increases.

DonBee

Fri, Mar 25, 2011 : 3:11 a.m.

Fos24 - Much of the decline of Mental Health Hospitals was due to the recommendations of the experts in mental health, saying that the people in the hospitals would do better in the community. Once the political class had that recommendation from the learned experts, they decided to follow that advice. I think both groups were wrong, but that is just my opinion. Right now there are two groups who are wrong on K-12 education, the union and the folks in Lansing. I was taught as a child, two wrongs, don't make a right.

aataxpayer

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 11:29 a.m.

Brit has offered to work overtime to teach the public. As a potential "student," I would like to know where and when the classes meet and whether it's only a lecture format or a true discussion that AAEA desires.

eastsidemom

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 11:18 a.m.

The states that have collective bargaining are also the states with the highest SAT scores. Unions are about power to the worker. I am proud my children were taught by union workers, supported and educated by union wages and their health care provided by union benefits. We all deserve the best America has to offer and unions have made sure we are along for the ride, not the just the robber barons. All the above is hot air by the haves!

Macabre Sunset

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 3:57 a.m.

While Lansing burns, Iris Salters is arranging a symphony featuring thousands of fiddles.

Heardoc

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 3 a.m.

Another comical moment by the MEA--- Go ahead and strike. This is just about money and more money for the union thugs. Public unions need to be outlawed. Charter schools appear to be the way to go for the kids -- better student to teacher ratio, more accountability of the teacher and NO UNIONS! No wonder the MEA hates charter schools. The death rattle is happening now with Public Unions -- sounds great.

Marshall Applewhite

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 2:57 a.m.

Can we all agree that the teachers are preforming a noble duty in society, but the teachers union is terrible for the education of our children? Let's get rid of the union, so we can eliminate the dead weight from the teaching ranks. Also, let's increase the compensation of the great teachers. This is a no-brainer for people who aren't so dead set on defending the existence of the union.

Lisa

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 12:14 p.m.

Marshall, That's not true. Good teachers do need protection when they disagree with their administration, when administration is a problem, when a parent becomes abusive, when they become expensive.

average joe

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 11:34 a.m.

Yes, the majority of the teachers are performing a noble duty in society and care about their students accademic welfare. Based on the letter from Salters, the MEA is only concerned about the jobs at the MEA offices.

Marshall Applewhite

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 3:27 a.m.

@Lisa The good teachers don't need any protection. It's obvious that the teachers unions are only interested in self preservation.

Lisa

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 3:07 a.m.

No, we can't agree that teacher unions are terrible for the education of our children because it is not true. The unions protect the good teachers as well. Without union protection, the most expensive teachers would be removed first and they are often the best teachers.

treetowncartel

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 2:24 a.m.

People please, you act as if the teachers are all holding a glass of kool aid and ready to go down with the ship. I had a close conversation with one today who is not going to follow the directive blindly. Things need to be saidm, things need to be done, but the decision does not need to be made immediatley. That being said, kicking education to the curb by cutting funds in such a drasdtic measure does invite the opportunity of voting with my feet and going to a state where my kids' future isn't on the chopping block.

A2Realilty

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 1:56 a.m.

My key feelings on this: 1) The MEA should not strike. I don't think that is productive. 2) Snyder's cuts to education are TERRIBLE. The cuts will affect the quality of our school systems. This will make our geographic region less desirable and subsequently lower our home values. 3) I think that it is RIDICULOUS to cut funding at the K-12 level and then move some funding into higher ed. The public schools can't raise their own funding, but higher ed can. Also, students who are interested in pursuing higher ed can get loans and work jobs. These aren't viable options for those in K-12. This funding shift should be UNDONE immediately. For something novel, I would love to see vouchers for free or reduced pay tuition at qualifying higher ed schools that would be offset by community service or public service hours after graduation. The hours would have to be worked within the State of Michigan to prevent "brain drain." This is a rough concept, but one that would be far better than just throwing some funding at higher ed at the expense of K-12 students.

average joe

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 12:56 a.m.

Like snoopdog, I have read Salter's letter, & agree it doesn't really reflect support for the students, but rather comes across to me as a sort of a pep talk to the members. What really sticks out at me is the statement that "the results of the vote (by members)will not be made public...." . So does this mean that no one will find out what the vote results officially are other than the MEA top people? If so, were I a member I would not be taking part in such a joke of a ballot vote, unless I was afforded the oportunity to examine the actual results(or #'s for & against) By the tone of this letter, one can guarantee what the results will be...... so much for being a "public" union.

Peter A Webb

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 12:25 a.m.

When the teachers' unions makes it harder to get rid of underperforming teachers, as they do from time to time, I have a problem with that. But when the unions' goal is to maintain or improve teachers' salaries, and keep class sizes under 30, I have no problem. I honestly wonder if the angry commenters here actually know any teachers. I personally know two people that teach in public schools. Both of these teachers have advanced degrees from prominent schools and both could be making a great deal more money than they do at the moment if they were to change lines of work. Not only that, but they would have shorter hours and less stress. Teaching isn't easy anywhere and nobody doing it at a public school is getting rich. Quite contrary to some of the loudest voices on this board, I would like to see salaries improve so that more highly-qualified instructors can be attracted to the profession. If I have to pay higher taxes to make that happen, I am fine with it.

snoopdog

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 11:56 p.m.

I just got done reading the letter written by Iris Salters to the local union presidents. It is very disturbing and obvious that their actions have nothing to do with the "kids", it is all about their wallets. I say outlaw public unions and throw the MEA to the curb, they make me sick to my stomach ! Good Day

macjont

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 2:10 a.m.

Wrong about the lens, Lisa. Snoopdog is completely blind.

Lisa

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 12:52 a.m.

Perhaps its simply because the lens you are looking through are biased.

Roadman

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 10:54 p.m.

These teachers are paid too much.

macjont

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 2:11 a.m.

Measured against a babysitter? Teachers make about $1 per hour per child, and really much less.

eom

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 1:03 a.m.

"These" teachers? Does that mean that other teachers aren't paid too much? Or is it just Ann Arbor teachers? What makes it "TOO MUCH"? What happens when "these" teachers are paid "too little"? I'll tell you what will happen...test scores will take a dive, property values will take another dive, and no one in their right mind will go into teaching. Then what? Oh, right, we'll blame the teachers for THAT. Got it.

skfina2

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 10:16 p.m.

As a teacher who received her letter from Iris Salters yesterday, a few points, especially for all of you teacher-bashers: 1) Yes, it actually IS all about the kids. Gov. Snyder is proposing to take a boatload of money out of the K-12 school fund, enough to close many districts' structural deficits, and move it into higher ed. Considering (and I say this as the parent of a UM student and a future MSU student) they can always raise tuition to cover expenses, but public schools have no way to raise revenue, this is grossly unfair. The proposed reduction in school funding will cause class sizes to increase substantially. Would you prefer your child to be in a class of 25 kids, or a class of 36? People who care about kids will prefer the latter. This may be hard for the teacher-bashers to comprehend, but the teachers I know are less concerned with our personal salaries and more concerned about what will happen to the state of public education in Michigan if Snyder has his way. I am sorry if this contradicts your idea of the greedy, "union thugs" you make us all out to be. 2) There is this perception that there are many bad, lazy teachers being protected by the union. I won't argue that bad teachers exist, although not as many as you make it seem. So how do we make sure that we have only good teachers in the classroom? Well, here's how NOT to: keep increasing the opportunity costs for smart, capable people to go into teaching. It's already hard enough to get our nation's best and brightest into the profession, and that's with current benefits like no health care premiums and guaranteed pensions. Remove those benefits, lower salaries, and you make it even harder. Or maybe you like the idea of our future teachers being scraped from the bottom of the intellectual barrel. 3) Don't confuse us with our leadership. I DO NOT want to go on strike. Neither do many of my colleagues. So we will exercise our right to vote "NO" at our local union meeti

1bit

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 5:16 p.m.

@lisa: "As I understand the complaint, people are unhappy that they have to pay tax on the business' profits AND on their personal income from the business" Nope, that's not how it works. The MBT is a gross receipts tax. Jenny Z owns a business. She pays her 10 employees, their taxes, sales/use taxes, and provides modest benefits. After overhead, the remainder is profit as is passed through to her personal taxes, where it is taxed at Federal/State levels. The MBT then looks at her gross receipts and taxes again (whether or not there is a profit or loss).

Awakened

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 12:30 p.m.

In Livonia last year they threatened to lay off 95 teachers. When the funding was secured to avoid that they gave the superintendent a $100,000 pay raise. Not the teachers in the classes; the administrator. Snyder was elected by a wide majority.

Lisa

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 2:26 a.m.

1bit, Poorer districts are already suffering. But yes, they might suffer more depending on how things are restructured. I don't think that is a necessity. IIRC, AAPS only gets about half the funds raised in the district for schooling; the rest goes to support poorer communities. While I'm not thrilled with the percent taken, I am not opposed to spreading some of the funding around. What I am opposed to is the absolute inability of our district to raise funds locally to increase our operational budget. As for the business tax, if Snyder wanted to reform the system, that's fine but it should be revenue neutral. As I understand the complaint, people are unhappy that they have to pay tax on the business' profits AND on their personal income from the business. How is that any different than a corporation being taxed on its profit and its employee's income being taxed? Further, isn't the obvious solution to spend more so that the business has a profit of $0 at the end of the year?

1bit

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 1:38 a.m.

@skfina2: Interesting ideas. Tuition at the college level has been going up and up too. Colleges will be reduced by 15% if they can keep tuition increases to about 7%. I'm not against a graduated income tax, but I'm not sure how much additional revenue it would raise. Don't corporations already pay taxes? @lisa: If school funding is local, won't poorer districts suffer? Local sales taxes would only hurt local businesses more - I think a better idea is to collect sales taxes from Internet sales (which most people are not reporting). The business tax cut as you put it is actually a reform - the MBT is double taxation on small businesses (maybe you can also "start by careful analysis of the problem").

Lisa

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 1:25 a.m.

1bit, You want suggestions? Start by careful analysis of the problem. The state is underfunded because it has cut taxes to the point it is underfunded. Local agencies (districts and cities) are underfunded because the state took away their ability to raise funds for day to day operations and is now refusing to provide the funds promised. Teacher pensions are a liability because the state stole from the teacher pension fund in the 90s. K-12 education is being hit especially hard this year because money in the K-12 school fund is being funneled to higher education. Now that we have identified the problem... the state government. We can identify solutions. Repeal Proposal A and return school funding to local control. Allow local communities to levy a sales tax. Don't implement the governor's business tax cut; we can't afford it. Oh and pay back the money stolen from teacher retirement accounts instead of making the school districts take that money out of their per pupil fund. Some other thoughts: We might be able to streamline administration costs at the district level by simplifying reporting to the state but that would require the state to invest in significant computer infrastructure. But unless you change the financing and restore funding, programs WILL have to be cut and perhaps even schools will be closed... especially since it is doubtful this will be the last rounds of cuts

skfina2

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 12:23 a.m.

I think the solution to the problem is to 1) return the money to the school fund and instead raise tuition at the college level; 2) amend the constitution to allow for a graduated income tax, then raise taxes people making over $500,000 a year; 3) since our local corporations will benefit from an educated work force, how about asking them to contribute to some kind of school fund? 4) cut the bureaucracy in central offices - people who don't directly affect a child's education. Just a few suggestions.

1bit

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 11:29 p.m.

I think like many of the other posters who don't want to "bash" teachers, we are also looking for educators to have solutions to the problem rather than the "don't cut me" mantra. As the State has less money, what is the solution to the problem?

macjont

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 9:50 p.m.

Mama, don't let your babies grow up to be TEACHERS Don't let 'em pick guitars and drive them old trucks Make 'em be doctors and lawyers and such And you know what folks, mamas have been doing that for some time now. If you don't believe me, go to the medical school and law school graduations this spring and check out the number of talented women in those classes. (My son's law school class of two years ago, more than 350 in number, was better than 50% female.) In the days of the "glass ceiling," those young ladies used to become teachers. (My law school class of 1975 had no more than 10 women.) So what some people seem to advocating is making teaching less attractive as a profession than it is now. With the changes some people seem to want, good luck trying to lure talented people away from law and medicine into teaching. Good luck to your children and grandchildren.

skfina2

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 12:27 a.m.

Amen!

jjc155

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 8:58 p.m.

watch the linked video to NEA General Console Bob Chanin giving a speech about what the NEA (and all unions) are all about. Real Nice <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwxiRXqH_hQ" rel='nofollow'>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwxiRXqH_hQ</a>

northside

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 8:24 p.m.

Wow: 226 comments (and counting) on something one union is only considering doing. No wonder public education and unions are under fire: every move they make (or even consider) is analyzed with a microscope.

Mike

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 8:18 p.m.

More than 1,450 area public school district employees made more than $75,000 in 2006, an income level matched by less than half the households in Washtenaw and Livingston counties, an analysis of payroll documents by The Ann Arbor News shows. <a href="http://blog.mlive.com/ann_arbor_news_extra/2007/08/how_much_pay_for_teachers.html" rel='nofollow'>http://blog.mlive.com/ann_arbor_news_extra/2007/08/how_much_pay_for_teachers.html</a> Read the above for yourself and you decide.......... Don't forget all of the paid holidays, personal days, etc....

treetowncartel

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 2:17 a.m.

Lets not forget they have the only jobs that force you to keep paying college tuition to keep the job.

macjont

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 2:12 a.m.

Why were they paid so little? They were worth so much more.

A2Realilty

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 1:43 a.m.

Mike you do realize that EDUCATION LEVEL has an impact on the income earned by a person, right? Comparing a pool of Bachelor (and in many cases, Masters) degree holders to the general populace SHOULD show that those with degrees EARN more.

Dennis

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 6:59 p.m.

Under the Democratic By-laws of any Union. The Officers must get permission from the membership to conduct any type of actions. The only thing that the Michigan Education Association is doing is called for by their by-laws. It is the same in any union in the private sector. I find it amazing that people (Republicans and Businessmen) that claim to want free-trade would deny workers the right to it, after all economies are made up of "goods and services". One's labor is a service and all workers should be allowed to negotiate a price that the employer is going to pay for their service.

HJK

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 6:50 p.m.

In many countries, teachers are revered like doctors and attorneys. Lower those wages and you will have the same pool of teacher that this country had 100 years ago: unwed women waiting to get married and men that were kicked in the head by a horse. You will be left with teachers that couldn't get a job doing anything else. Why would you want to pay a teacher less money than an engineer? They have the same education and specialized degree. 30 years ago, teachers use to encourage their good students to go into the field of education. I highly doubt that happens anymore. I would NEVER encourage my children to be teachers. They are under appreciated and under paid for the job responsibly. Anyone that has considered the field of education knows that you don't teach for the money, but it gets made up with job security and benefits. Those that support lowering teachers' salaries: how many of you would encourage your child to be a teacher and be willing to send them to U of M for 4-5 years to get their degree and certification? Teachers are educating our youth and in a direct position to make this world a better place. In my opinion, those that complain that teachers are over compensated only advertise their ignorance to the field of education.

Lisa

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 2:37 a.m.

EyeheartA2, My union provides some very valuable services to me and no, I don't think I'm getting screwed by them. I also don't believe that I would be paid more under another pay scheme. The problem with individual salaries is manifold but here are a few pieces: 1) there is a finite amount of money to be spent on salaries 2) there is a history in this nation of paying people more because of their identity, not their job (ie.. well, he has a family to provide for so he needs more) 3) politics would dictate who gets more money not performance and 4) I have a big mouth (as you may have noticed) and open it whenever I see something is wrong or disagree, I suspect that would damage my income if I were not on a salary schedule but I also think it is the right thing to do. I left engineering because I hated it. I love science and math but I hated the culture in engineering. And all engineers who wish to practice as an engineer are licensed by the state. This is a two part process. The first test is taken at the end of one's education and is called (or at least was called) the Engineer in training. This is an initial license and after several years of practice, one can attempt for the professional engineering license. I hold the first license. I never practiced nor did I care to. My focus was electrical engineering thought I have taken course work in civil, mechanical and aeronautical. I graduated from one of the best engineering schools in the nation. I would suggest that perhaps engineers need a union. The H1B visas are putting thousands of engineers out of work across this nation because they are cheaper.

EyeHeartA2

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 2:21 a.m.

Lisa; This means you are likely getting the screws put to you by your Union - too bad you are stuck in their rigid wage system, otherwise you and the others in your department might get more money. Also, why did you leave the engineering field? Engineering License? Civil Engineer I take it?

Lisa

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 12:43 a.m.

Please explain how the union stops the best and the brightest from becoming teachers since a) teacher unions work to improve compensation and working conditions and b) no one joins a union until after they have a teaching job.

Lisa

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 12:42 a.m.

Actually Bob, this teacher has an engineering degree and I'm not the only Math/Science teacher in AAPS who does. I also have a degree in education, a teaching license and my initial engineering license.

Basic Bob

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 11:28 p.m.

"In many countries, teachers are revered like doctors and attorneys." In many countries, voodoo priests, warlords, or suicide bombers are revered like doctors and attorneys. In this country, Ben Rothlisberger and Lindsay Lohan are revered above doctors and attorneys. It's a weak argument. And teachers do not have engineering degrees, they have education degrees. Teachers are not engineers, doctors, or attorneys. They are teachers.

Macabre Sunset

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 10:01 p.m.

It would be worth it if these were actually the best and the brightest. Unions ensure that doesn't happen, though. Since Michigan is shrinking, the best and brightest new graduates go elsewhere, and those with tenure remain, knowing all they have to do for job security is show up for work 180 days a year, home at 4:00.

Lisa

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 9:44 p.m.

Mike, What is wrong with that? Seriously? Do you want smart, educated, efffective, hardworking people in the classroom or do you want someone who is merely cheap?

Mike

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 8:21 p.m.

More than 1,450 area public school district employees made more than $75,000 in 2006, an income level matched by less than half the households in Washtenaw and Livingston counties, an analysis of payroll documents by The Ann Arbor News shows. <a href="http://blog.mlive.com/ann_arbor_news_extra/2007/08/how_much_pay_for_teachers.html" rel='nofollow'>http://blog.mlive.com/ann_arbor_news_extra/2007/08/how_much_pay_for_teachers.html</a> Read the above for yourself and you decide.......... Don't forget all of the paid holidays, personal days, etc.... Delete We're sorry. We were unable to delete the comment at this time.

DonBee

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 6:29 p.m.

I think Brit said it best: "Folks haven't clearly recognized the larger picture largely because local educators throughout the AAPS ranks have done an excellent job of keeping years of collective and willful financial negligence away from our students." We have run up the cost of administration to the point of absurd. We duplicate programs and capabilities at the district and WISD level, and we have a fossilized program of education that has made almost no progress in 20 years on an education gap that has been the #1 priority of the district. Brit also said "Planet Scary Union" which is what the MEA will be when they do a statewide strike. It will give the Teaparty fringers what they need to pull a Wisconsin in Michigan. Governor Snyder is trying to do the impossible, and it is going to hurt. We can either all buckle down and compromise or we can dig in with our Dogma. Michigan is #2 nationally in something according to the 2010 Census, number of people leaving. If Dogma wins in 2020, we will be #1

DonBee

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 10:50 a.m.

Macjont - When was the last time you were in a classroom teaching? For me it was yesterday morning. I may be an engineer, but I teach regularly at 3 levels, as a guest for elementary and secondary schools, in seminars for colleges and in tutorials for professional continuing education credit. You are right, I don't do day to day classroom management, I don't do standard lesson plans and I am not a certified educator. But I do have children. So yes, I know nothing about education.

macjont

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 2:14 a.m.

Ok folks. DonBee is an engineer and engineers know nothing about education or the work teachers put in. Read him/her if you wish, but you would learn more by looking at a blank page.

Lisa

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 9:45 p.m.

The AAAA is not the AAEA

DonBee

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 8:27 p.m.

Dennis - Check out the AAAA - Ann Arbor Administrator's Association, the principal's union in AAPS.

Dennis

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 7:18 p.m.

You only need to go back and check the number of "Teacher Strikes" in this State. It's very limited. Teacher's normally picket on their own time. The only thing I agree with n your statement is that "We have run up the cost of administration to the point of absurd. ". The last time I checked Administrators are not Union Members, they are Management.

Omega Man

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 5:40 p.m.

Teachers in Michigan are claiming a middle class status that is misleading. AVERAGE Michigan Teacher annual salary (NOT including generous benefits) = $57,317 Average Michigan Annual Wage = $47,476 in Michigan, $51,012 in Washtenaw (US Dept of Labor) This article needs updating with stats.

1bit

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 8:36 p.m.

As the others have noted, this has been studied and in general when comparing the salaries of public employees, their education level is discounted. When you compare public employees salaries against those with equal education levels, they are generally paid less than average. I certainly would not consider someone making less than $100,000 a year in salary/benefits to be rich or not middle class.

EyeHeartA2

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 6:36 p.m.

Ghost and I agree 4 times in a year. I don't see how 57K is NOT in the middle class. Is it above average? Yes, it is above an average that includes burger flippers and paper/plasic guys. BTW, that statistic is as meaningless at the "average masters degree" one.

Lisa

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 6:11 p.m.

Omega Man, The average worker in Michigan has only a high school degree, GED or didn't finish high school. So you are saying that teachers (who on average have a masters degree) have an average salary that is only $6K more than the average worker who has only a high school degree. That suggest that we are underpaid when considering our education.

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 6:02 p.m.

Wow. The average teacher, who has at least a 4-year degree, many of whom have advanced degree, made a whopping $3,536 more than the average Michigan worker. I'm sure they're all driving Beemers on that extra money. Good Night and Good Luck

AACity12

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 5:28 p.m.

@Macabre It may be class warfare but Rick is the one that declared it. When he decided to go after our teachers with cuts and our elder with his his pension tax. Then to turn around and give buisness a 1.8 billion dollar tax cut in hopes that they create jobs. That tax cut doesn't help my dad who is living on a 32K a year pension after 32 years of service. So yea it is Class warfare and the Rich are winning. With this plan the rich will get richer and the poor will get poorer. And we have to sit and wait and hope the rich throw us some scraps in the form of minimum wage jobs with no benefits. I say fight to the death teachers! Get every penny you can. You deserve it.

AACity12

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 1:29 a.m.

So the answer is to tax our grandparents and give it to the rich and hope that they throw some jobs our way? How well did that work with the last round of Bush tax cuts for the rich? It didn't!!! How about we give tax breaks to the lower third. They pay their bills, buy cars, and spend! That money moves up the line. The car salesmen makes money, the car company makes money. Landlords get money when people are able to pay their rent. Etc. Etc. Etc. The Big Corps have been making money in the last year. They are hoarding it and not creating anything in the way of work for us. The answer is not to make poor people poorer.

Mick52

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 6:52 p.m.

Wrong AACity, it was the majority of voters in the Nov 10 election that declared it when they voted for a change in how Michigan is being run. I see you offer no other solution to Michigan's fiscal problems other than continue the former tax structure. Well, look where that has gotten us. You want to keep digging the hole we are in, eh? In the meantime, other states are trying to attract business by doing the same thing, improving the tax structure to try to draw more. Or raising taxes significantly like Illinois. That okay with you? How do you like this?: <a href="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704803604576078291454012106.html" rel='nofollow'>http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704803604576078291454012106.html</a>

SayraPalein

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 5:11 p.m.

I grew up in country that tried to bring everyone up. Somehow, with the coaching from those of gluttonous wealth we have declined from "we" to "me or them". Our children are growing up in a world where as one rises up above the crowd, then he or she needs to be knocked back down. America, welcome to the third world!

Roger Roth

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 5:10 p.m.

I think it's important for everyone to understand: Anyone can strike. If all or most MI teachers strike, Snyder can fire them all, hire replacements (immediately improving MI schools, according to many here) and then, a great big charter school can be built and named "The Rick Snyder Charter School." It'll be a beautiful school, all shiny and happy, with lots of bright kids running around, learning and having fun. Training of teachers can be accelerated, salaries can be increased to entice the best and the brightest, and everything will come up roses, just like it did at Ronald Reagan International Airport. We've got to, in these troubled times, try to remain positive. We're in this mess because of the despicable union worker, and Reagan showed the world how to deal with those types! And he was a union man---------------------------------------------------at one time. Traitor!

skfina2

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 6:05 p.m.

Increase salaries to entice the best and the brightest? Wow, what an idea! Too bad Slick Rick doesn't get it.

Dale

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 5:07 p.m.

I have no problem with private sector unions. Public sector unions are a different animal because what is created is a LABOR MONOPOLY, with the added ability to help choose the people who will decide their compensation AND protect the monopoly by limiting choices, especially in education. i.e. legislators and school boards. In the private sector when a product or service is not available due to a word stoppage or is procieced to be of lesser value people can look for a different supplier. Not so with public wokers. People are stuck! Take electric companies, they are a monopolies. Educators along with every one else would scream bloody murder if they could shut down because they wanted a rate hike or any thing else for that mater. Why? Because there is no alternative source. That is why they are regulated. Educators want THEIR monopolies, WANT to be able to hold communities hostage. They are not intrested in the good of communities or chrildrenor the middle class as they clame. Just intrested in there own gain and at the expence of others. You want full bargining rights then support free markets in education! Compeat in the market of Ideas and Techniques in education. They won't because they can't!!

proudtobeme

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 5:01 p.m.

this is a little off topic but with all the teacher bashing I just need to ask,"How many people here spend money out of their own pocket on their job?" this does not include health care. I'm talking about things (materials,supplies) that are needed to carry out your job. So for example,anybody have to buy their own office supplies,or spend their own money on paper or file folders,etc.? Well,I do. Just the other day I went to the bookstore and spent over 100 on books for my classroom. I didn't HAVE to but it would be pretty difficult to carry out my reading lessons without these books. I try really hard not to spend extra money but sometimes in order to be a good teacher,I have to. I have been doing this every year for the past 14 years I have taught. I spend between 500-1000 per year on my classroom. This year it is less because I am really trying to watch my budget but I'll tell you it's been hard to carry out some of my greatest lessons without the materials. So please don't bash me for not paying on my "Cadillac" insurance or for earning a decent wage. And YES I get my summers off but I tell you what-I did not go into this profession because of that,and honestly any single one of you could have (and still can) go into teaching to get your summers off. Seriously,this is nothing new. We all had choices for our career path and I'm pretty sure you all knew that teachers don't work in the summer when you decided what to do with your life. So knowing that,why didn't you go into the teaching profession?

AMOC

Tue, Mar 29, 2011 : 2:25 a.m.

Proud, when I was working as an engineering manager in the auto industry, I frequently spent money out of my pocket to 1) maintain my professional license, including continuing education expenses, 2) provide amenities which had been cost-reduced by the company, such as meeting refreshments for staff members participating in job improvement / cost reduction efforts, 3) join and attend professional society conferences and classes, 4) buying and updating a personal computer and software compatible with the ones used at work, and 5) obtain reference materials like journals at $100+ / year subscription and engineering textbooks, at a cost of $200+ / book. I kept on doing this during a period of 6 years when there were no raises at all unless you changed jobs, not for cost-of-living, not for additional education or other certifications, not for seniority. (Not just a pay scale freeze, in other words but an actual pay freeze.) Further, I did this during a period when the employee-paid portion of our health insurance bills rose from 7% to 20% of the total, giving me an effective 12% pay cut over those 6 years. In no year did I spend less than $2k on what the IRS calls un-reimbursed business expenses, but I suppose the good news is that it never amounted to more than 2% of my adjusted gross income so I couldn't even claim a tax deduction for those expenses either. Nowadays, thanks to the much-maligned GWBush, (or maybe thanks to his wife, who was a school librarian by training) teachers can claim a tax credit of $200 for classroom supplies with no other documentation required. Doing whatever it takes, including spending out of your own pocket when needed to get the job done, is what professionals do. I would be delighted to become a teacher, if I could stomach the idiocy that passes for "teacher training" in the schools of education. There is an experienced classroom teacher turned academic in my family who keeps urging me to do that. .

DonBee

Fri, Mar 25, 2011 : 2:58 a.m.

MacJont - And if you check the IRS 1040, you can deduct them as a teacher too. But some expenses as am employee cannot be deducted and I am employee, not an independent consultant.

Lisa

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 1:31 p.m.

Pitts, I guess that you believe teachers in so called 'right to work' states are provided with plenty of supplies and equipment, that they never have to buy supplies because there are no greedy unions to demand every last nickel goes into compensation.

macjont

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 2:19 a.m.

DonBee, learn something about education and then we can consider your comments. "Consultants" take these expenses and deduct them from their income. They run a business. At least this is what I did in my profession.

PittsfieldPerson

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 1:32 a.m.

The reason you need to buy supplies out of your own pocket is because the unions insist that every last nickel is paid out in salary and benefits. They certainly never bargain for increased funding for teaching supplies.

Mick52

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 6:41 p.m.

I spent money on supplies for my job. While I think year round school would raise costs, I have always pondered that changing the school calendar would save money. If school was held through the summer and the vacation was Dec - Feb., the schools would not have to be heated to the level they are, money would be saved on shoveling sidewalks and parking lots, and busing. Kids can walk or ride bikes to school. No more snow days off. Wouldn't that save significant $$?

proudtobeme

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 6:30 p.m.

I've never heard of an EMT having to buy their equipment with their own money. And I spend my own money to go to workshops too.

DonBee

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 6:19 p.m.

Proudtobeme - Thank you for buying the books for your students. I think that is great. Please realize that others in other lines of work spend their own money too to be able to do their jobs, from EMTs that buy gear for their ambulances, to consultants who spend money for their workshops. No job is immune from having to spend money to do the job well. That is another change in the new America.

Jen Eyer

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 6:09 p.m.

It just got caught up in the "queue" with another comment that was blocked for good reason. A simple mistake.

EyeHeartA2

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 6:06 p.m.

Maybe the more appropriate question is why it was taken down in the first place? I see nothing wrong there. Well, I didn't see anything wrong with mine that got deleted this AM either. Still waiting to hear why. Perhaps AA.com doesn't know why either.

andys

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 5:31 p.m.

There you go Proud ... now its back, there is justice in this world. Tkx annarbor.com moderators!

proudtobeme

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 5:19 p.m.

Would love to know what comment was removed in response to mine. Oh and by the way,I totally support year round schools. I think we should go year round,there's no reason not to. Oh wait I guess that would cost money to run schools year round. Oh well!

andys

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 5:13 p.m.

Well had everyone known the trajectory of public sector pay and benefits vs. private sector 30 years ago, a lot of people may have made different choices. But more importantly, there is no more money. Some say tax the rich in MI, but that is a self limiting option, because if you hit them too hard many will look to move out of state. You can tax everyone, but really you are asking people much worse off to fund your pay and benefits. That's a difficult proposition.

bs

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 4:33 p.m.

See, Snyder isn't worried about a teacher's strike. His kiddos attend an expensive, private, school (where teachers probably make close to minimum wage salaries). Teachers at his kiddo's school can't strike, they don't have a union.... Snyder's not all that worried about police or fire protection either, after all, he's got a state police guard with him, and that house in lansing, let the darn thing burn, he's not paying for it... I sincerely hope that every teacher in the state goes on strike, and, let Snyder hire some scabs to replace them, he'll end up with the lousy education system he's paying for, new teachers with no experience and not a clue how to deal with kids.

macjont

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 2:21 a.m.

Mick, they'd tear you apart in today's classroom. You only think you can teach.

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 9:24 p.m.

"I have BA, MA and would be happy to teach. I just don't have a Teaching degree. If they fire all the teachers, I hope they revise the regulations so that smart people can apply for those jobs." Because one doesn't need to know anything about the science of teaching in order to be a teacher? Good Night and Good Luck

Mick52

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 6:34 p.m.

You do not have to have a union to strike. I have BA, MA and would be happy to teach. I just don't have a Teaching degree. If they fire all the teachers, I hope they revise the regulations so that smart people can apply for those jobs. I can coach basketball too.

Dale

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 5:12 p.m.

I have no problem with private sector unions. Public sector unions are a different animal because what is created is a LABOR MONOPOLY, with the added ability to help choose the people who will decide their compensation AND protect the monopoly by limiting choices, especially in education. i.e. legislators and school boards. In the private sector when a product or service is not available due to a word stoppage or is procieced to be of lesser value people can look for a different supplier. Not so with public wokers. People are stuck! Take electric companies, they are a monopolies. Educators along with every one else would scream bloody murder if they could shut down because they wanted a rate hike or any thing else for that mater. Why? Because there is no alternative source. That is why they are regulated. Educators want THEIR monopolies, WANT to be able to hold communities hostage. They are not intrested in the good of communities or chrildrenor the middle class as they clame. Just intrested in there own gain and at the expence of others. You want full bargining rights then support free markets in education! Compeat in the market of Ideas and Techniques in education. They won't because they can't!!

Moscow On The Huron

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 5:12 p.m.

Teachers at public schools can't strike, either. Well, not legally.

andys

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 4:57 p.m.

On a separate comment thread, it was settled that only one of Snyder's kids goes to a private school, the rest (other) goes to public. Can't remember how many kids he has.

Moscow On The Huron

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 4:03 p.m.

Here's a question: if teachers go on strike and lose their pay while doing so, will MEA officers also give up their pay, such as Salters and her $200K+ salary? If teachers are fired, will Salters resign?

Moscow On The Huron

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 4:06 p.m.

... and their 346 employees who make an average of $89K?

mw

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 4:01 p.m.

"Michigan teachers rank about 10th nationally in compensation, not first." But ask yourself, is Michigan the 10th richest state? No -- not even close. We were #34 as of 2009, and I'm pretty sure things haven't gotten better in the two years since then: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_income" rel='nofollow'>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_income</a>

Awakened

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 12:27 p.m.

The census figures came out yesterday. We are the only state in the union to have lost population over the last 10 years. Worse, the demographics have changed. While our population is close to the same we have lost 20% of our workers. We have a much higher proportion of retiree's and unemployed than any other state. Hence the need to tax the retirees. And as one I am seriously considering following the workers south to Texas.

Mick52

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 6:31 p.m.

I had the same thought. #10 ranking is not at all bad.

andys

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 5:02 p.m.

On a separate thread, it was documented that MI teachers when compared to housing affordability are the best paid in the nation. Or stated another way, sure other states may pay teachers more but the cost of living is much greater (probably for places like California).

Twelvestring

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 3:58 p.m.

Teachers considering this should understand that the actions discussed are playing straight into the hands of the government which will terminate them! What I suggest is that the Ann Arbor Education association work on constructive dialog(s) to lower the cost of education. One area for consideration should be School Superintendants. Why do we need a Superintendant for every district??? We're talking a salary of +$150,000 plus benifits. Michigan should go the rout Maryland did and have one superintendant per county. Lay off all the superintendants except one to over see the county school activities. Think of the savings per county ... let alone across the state

macjont

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 2:29 a.m.

Correction: the private sector will begin hiring and will pay as much as necessary .... etc.

macjont

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 2:27 a.m.

Arguments to the effect that "because the private sector has trimmed its sails, the public must also" have a fatal weakness. When the economy revives, the public sector will begin hiring and will pay as much as necessary to obtain and retain quality employees. The public sector will not rebound in this way. It took decades of struggle to raise the pay and benefits in the public sector (specifically teaching) to the point where a person could even hope to support a family. Once lost, this condition will be restored only through great struggle and considerable time. And the education of our children and grandchildren will be sacrificed to the exigencies of our current problems.

EyeHeartA2

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 5:18 p.m.

$150K - How ignorant can you be? We just hired one for $280K. Ooops, sorry, you said 150K+ (should be plus A LOT).

Moscow On The Huron

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 4:09 p.m.

To be fair, schools districts in Maryland go by county, not by municipality. So, that's still one superintendent per district. However, since their counties are so big (those around DC are among the biggest in the country), I'm curious whether their size has led to higher efficiency.

lbechard

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 3:46 p.m.

GOVERNMENT UNIONS Protecting mediocrity since 1958 Five decades of public sector unionization have given us a system where unions have had ability to elect their own bosses, so that every taxpayer effort at reform and restraint over the years has dissolved eventually into new rounds of benefits and perks for government workers. It's a system without the competitive restraints on both management and labor that exist in the private sector. It's a system that is undemocratic, unfair, unsustainable. The gravy train is ending. Government union members WELCOME TO REALITY. There is no more money. You need to cut back on salaries, benefits and pensions just the way the private sector has.

macjont

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 2:29 a.m.

Arguments to the effect that "because the private sector has trimmed its sails, the public must also" have a fatal weakness. When the economy revives, the private sector will begin hiring and will pay as much as necessary to obtain and retain quality employees. The public sector will not rebound in this way. It took decades of struggle to raise the pay and benefits in the public sector (specifically teaching) to the point where a person could even hope to support a family. Once lost, this condition will be restored only through great struggle and considerable time. And the education of our children and grandchildren will be sacrificed to the exigencies of our current problems.

L. C. Burgundy

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 3:46 p.m.

More general complaining and gnashing of teach from the D side and no real solutions offered. Work stoppage? You have got to be kidding me. Amazingly stupid.

macjont

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 2:30 a.m.

"stupid is as stupid does....."

L. C. Burgundy

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 3:50 p.m.

gnashing of TEETH. Sheesh.

DeeAA

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 3:30 p.m.

Cutting $470 per pupil over two years from state funding does not sound like a good deal for OUR students. Wasn't the lottery supposed to provide education funding?

Lisa

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 1:29 a.m.

Another example of the state's bait and switch routine to cut funding to local school districts.

Ignatz

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 3:44 p.m.

DeeAA, The lottery does go to education. All of it. The problem is that the politicians were taking away the money that previously funded education at the same time.

red9seven

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 2:59 p.m.

As a teacher with 12 years in the school system, and previously approximately the same time in the manufacturing sector, I believe I have reasonably objective view of this situation. Yes, I've been up until after 2am working on a new lesson plan, or grading tests and papers, but I have also enjoyed a security with my job which is the envy of my friends who stayed (or tried to stay) in their manufacturing jobs. My occupation stands out in three ways: 1) the 'give back' which Iris Salter refers to in her 3/18 letter to MEA members is a loss of what we 'could have had' and not a reduction in pay (where else can you find that job security?), 2) the pension I'll receive is much greater than that coming to my friends who stayed in the private sector and were fortunate enough to keep their jobs (and right now, it isn't even taxed!), and 3) while there are truly outstanding teachers (and I've seen Brit in action - he's great!), there are many who are just hanging on - this would not be tolerated in the private industry. I say this, no doubt to the chagrin of my fellow instructors, because I'm truly worried about the people in this great state. Too many of the parents of my students have lost their jobs, many moving south in hopes of a better future, or at a total loss in what do to next. This state needs drastic action, and this sounds equitable to me. I've never been a fan of the way MEA uses our dues; I wish it was more of a professional organization like the American Federation of Teachers, who does not funnel all their dues into political action. I'm ready for the vote in April, and I know I'm not the only teacher who feels this way.

macjont

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 2:32 a.m.

And I know plenty of teachers who think red9seven is full of it.

snoopdog

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 12:07 a.m.

Thank you, where do you teach, I want my kids under your study ! Good Day

Moscow On The Huron

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 11:19 p.m.

Red, be aware you're not alone. I know plenty of teachers who feel the same way.

jjc155

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 10:10 p.m.

This is probably the most honest and introspective post I have ever seen on AA.com. Thanks

Stephen Landes

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 2:56 p.m.

from previous post Change is hard. I don't see much change in public education. I see the same basic relationships that were common when I was in school and when my older relatives taught school 100 years ago: a teacher in front of a classroom of 20 to 40 students transmitting information and hoping that the retention rate is high. Yes, we have in essence automated some of the classroom with computers, but that hasn't, in my opinion, changed the basic method of teaching. We have a working world that is collaborative, team-oriented, data-driven, electronic, unconstrained by rooms and walls, and dynamic. Is this what our classrooms are like? If not, why not? What is the union doing to challenge members and districts to become best in class? It is an error to assume that to be best in class requires more money. What it takes is freeing yourself from self-imposed constraints of processes and procedures that served well in the past, but have outlived their usefulness. Rather than continuing in a defensive posture of "job actions" (right: these are called strikes and they are illegal) what is required is visionary leadership and a willingness to change everything in order to satisfy the customer. One metric that needs to be addressed: in its radio ads MESA describes the turnover rate of teachers in their first 5 years as 50%. That is a failing grade for any business. You cannot succeed with employee turnover like that. I think the union would serve its members far better by addressing that statistic than by all the old fashioned "barricades in the streets" language they are throwing around.

Wolf's Bane

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 2:51 p.m.

"The Labor Movement: The folks who brought you the weekend."

macjont

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 2:39 a.m.

I accompanied my wife to a meeting of the Michigan Reading Association a little over a week ago. Most of the teachers who attended paid their own way, an expense most could not afford but paid because these people wanted to do whatever it takes to improve themselves professionally. And you know what? Didn't see a Cadillac in the lot. The Cadillac benefit referred to is actually the health care we all should demand. (Do I hear "single payer?") The pension plan is anything but a Cadillac, trust me.

L. C. Burgundy

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 3:47 p.m.

Now reduced to demanding more and more tax money to feed their Cadillac government benefit and pension plans. I agree, it's been a sad downfall of what the union once was.

Allison

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 2:49 p.m.

So people think that for the time that the teachers put in, 5 days a week 8 months a year, they should be making less money, then tell the law makers you want your kids in school all summer long too, maybe 1 month break. Easy as pie the kids will spend more time in school get to learn their subjects better move on to different grades faster and get to college or work place or what have you in a shorter time. What Rick is talking about doing though is taking the money from the kids, making it so they don't get as much to spend on the students. That may or may not result in fewer markers and crayons and art supplies for young kids, no art class maybe, no gym class, fewer sports, or pay to play, I know AA already does that but some places don't. It would also mean no chess club no band or less kids can do those things. It could mean no after school programs for kids who would other wise be on the streets getting into trouble, think outside of AA think Detroit and Wayne county and some parts of Oakland county. Are you as parents willing to buy the Kleenex for your kids class room, the markers and chalk and the football helmets and the soccer balls and everything else? If you can afford to buy your kid those things good for you but as a parent I cannot afford to send my child to class with things the school should have and has always had. Think about it, "okay class tomorrow we are going to be painting so make sure you bring your paint brushes and paper because we don't have those things"

Stephen Landes

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 2:49 p.m.

I read both the Salters and Satchwell letters and can't remember when I've come across less useful scribblings. This is what passes for leadership in the teachers' union? Those of us who worked in industry in Michigan saw the changes that were possible when management and unions decided to work together to provide products at a price point that customers were willing to pay. We saw what happens when competitors come into "your" market and take it away from you because they provide a product at better quality and cost. Walk by any teacher parking lot and you can see that they, too, recognized that situation and bought a product that they thought was better at meeting their needs. Fortunately we have responded and products by US owned companies are resuming their place of prominence in the market. Unfortunately the pressure of competition does not affect the K-12 education business. Anyone choosing to send their child to a private school or to do home schooling still has to pay for the public school system. Teachers are insulated from the kind of competition that makes creative change possible. What I hear and read form the teachers' union is what we used to hear from private unions before they realized that they would make lives for their members better by working with business owners to make better products. The choices are hard and costly, but they need to be made. continued

Smiley

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 2:36 p.m.

Bottom line is Snyder is doing what he said he was going to do (something very few politicians can claim), and he's doing what is necessary. It will be painful for everyone because everyone needs to shoulder their fair share of the pain. But when it's all said and done, history will look upon Mr. Snyder in a very positive light. It's really simple - for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction - with our out-of-control spending, we've lived high on the horse for some time. Now, we have to face the music and live through the 'equal and opposite reaction' to our having lived high on the horse. Not fun for anyone, but it's as certain as the sun rising.

macjont

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 2:49 a.m.

Necessary? Only because of the tax breaks he is giving to business. Our spending is not "out of control." Our revenues are depressed because of the recession. Tell Snyder to go to Washing to lobby for a stimulus adequate enough to get us out of this mess, and that will solve the problem. Tell him to stop being a short-sighted Republican.

maallen

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 2:35 p.m.

So much for the teachers putting their students first. The union is more interested about "me" than the students. When the teachers authorize this strike it will be a sad day for the students. The teachers will claim victory while their students and their education that they claim to care so much about will lose. Sad.

macjont

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 2:50 a.m.

The Snyder program shows absolutely no regard for education. It's the states job to educate our young people. Stop dumping it all on the professionals we should be paying adequately to do the job.

Tom Whitaker

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 2:32 p.m.

Where free unions and collective bargaining are forbidden, freedom is lost. --Ronald Reagan 1980 He also called the right to belong to a union "...one of the most elemental of human rights."

Tom Whitaker

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 5:51 p.m.

"Negotiation needs to be a two-way street" And it has been all along. If teachers had a one-way street in negotiations, I think they'd have been compensated far more than they have been. Teachers are NOT over-compensated, but if you think they are, blame the officials and bureaucrats who negotiated their contracts, not the teachers or the MEA for doing a good job on their side of the two-way street. @Dale: YES! My point was two-fold. For all the conservatives (like Scott Walker) who think Ronald Reagan was the Messiah, they ought to remember that he was president of the AFL-CIO-affiliated Screen Actors Guild, and was pro-union, until of course, he was elected president in a conservative landslide, and then he wasn't. I think this example speaks volumes to all the independents and Demublicans out there who voted for the Nerd thinking he would simply bring some business-like efficiency to the Governor's office. These people are now stunned at his authoritarian power grab that more resembles the Polish authoritarian Communist leaders Reagan was speaking against than the home-rule, State's rights, small government conservatives that Reagan supposedly represented. Also, ERM is correct, that like the firefighters and police who are subject to Act 312, the controllers were not permitted to strike, by law. Out of frustration of working without a contract and not getting anywhere at the table, they made the unfortunate choice of striking, which gave Reagan all the ammo he needed to fire them.

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 5:30 p.m.

Eyeheart, We need to quit meeting like this! Yes, agree. And why this is SUCH an unbelievably stupid move by the MEA. Good Night and Good Luck

EyeHeartA2

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 5:15 p.m.

ERM - Good point...and very applicable to the current situation, where striking is illegal and could result in significantly lower payrolls when all those MS +30 teachers get fired (for cause) and replaced with the bottom of the payscale variety. In some cases the students would suffer. In others, they wouldn't.

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 4:45 p.m.

"He was not talking about public sector unions. How do I know? He also fired all the air trafic controlers. OOOPS forgot about that." Inconvenient Fact: He fired the air traffic controllers because they violated the law by going on strike. Had nothing to do with whether or not he supported public sector unions. Good Night and Good Luck

Dale

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 4:20 p.m.

He was not talking about public sector unions. How do I know? He also fired all the air trafic controlers. OOOPS forgot about that.

L. C. Burgundy

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 3:49 p.m.

No one in Michigan has advanced any such plan. I have no problem at all with private unions. However, being part of a public union should not and cannot be synonymous with "bleed the state dry so we can keep ours" which too many people think that's a license for.

Stephen Landes

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 3 p.m.

Great. Join a union. I have no problem with that. However, recognize that you can only charge what the customer is willing to pay. When the customer is unemployed, losing their own wages and salaries, and seeing their taxes go up you willfind you cannot beat them over the head to make them "Pay Up". Negotiation needs to be a two-way street, so when times change you may wind up with less than you are used to.

nekm1

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 2:29 p.m.

Here we go again. The State of ME instead of WE. Let's chase everyone away that actually works for a living, so more teachers, and unemployed can enjoy their government benefits. Sleep well tonight teachers, as your colors begin to show. It has NEVER been about our children, it has ALWAYS been about your selfish wants and desires. For 171 days of work a year, you should be ashamed of yourselves. Or better yet, get a job with Government Motors...at least that is a somewhat legitimate business. Take a moment and look into the faces of the kids in your classrooms, that you are saddling with expenses they will never be able to pay, just so you can "retire" to your timeshares, and cabins up north or down south, at their expense. Sleep well.

macjont

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 2:52 a.m.

Lisa puts it well. Nekm is FOS!

Lisa

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 5:20 p.m.

Sir, Teachers DO work for a living. We are the foundation for this state. Without teachers, there will be no educated workers for businesses to employ. Without teachers, there will be no schools to educate the children so that their parents can work. Your disdain for education and your painting of teacher is shameful. To tell us to go work for a legitimate business like GM in one breath and turn around to say that we are saddling our students with expenses they will never be able to pay in the next is rich. You seem to have forgotten that GM would be dead if it weren't for my students taking on an enormous burden to bail them out. Clearly this isn't really about schools or teachers but about your own ideology.

Tony Livingston

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 2:28 p.m.

Meanwhile, the CEO of Ford just received a $50 million bonus.

macjont

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 2:53 a.m.

These posts that defend outrageous corporate bonuses reflect the insanity that has brought our economy to its present state. We are doomed!

1bit

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 11:46 p.m.

The original comment is off topic, but if Mr. Mullaly were paid fairly, he would have had a billion dollar bonus, not one measured in millions of dollars. Feel free to calculate the difference in shareholder value from when the stock bottomed out to today's close. Feel free to calculate the amount of taxes paid by employees, Ford suppliers/dealers and their employees as well as benefits paid to them all. Feel free to also include debt repayments of over $15 billion dollars to investors who might have lost the value of their investments completely. Yes, I agree that CEOs are generally paid too much. Mr. Mullaly is the exception.

Lisa

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 5:15 p.m.

Mr. Landes, I see. You believe in paying for performance? Then why is AAPS losing funding this year? Or any year? Our school district is outstanding. Our test scores are excellent. That 50 million dollar bonus to ONE MAN would resolve the cuts for three entire school districts the size of Ann Arbor. I wonder what other bonuses were given out this year to Ford and GM employees. People keep saying that Michigan has been hit hard and that teacher's should share the pain and we have though apparently it wasn't a large enough piece of flesh to appease some... but now that our largest employers are doing so well and handing out bonuses, we are still being told that we should still feel the pain , that we don't deserve our current level of compensation (which is a cut!) and that we are selfish in trying to protect what we currently get. And I seriously doubt that when Michigan recovers these same people who demanded we feel the pain will be demanding we share the wealth.

EyeHeartA2

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 3:16 p.m.

Hey, if the teachers wanted to be CEO of Ford, they should have taken THAT job. Same logic as below, which I happen to agree with. "Hey, when they strike all you bashers can leave your current jobs or endeavor and go take this cakewalk of an assignment and reduce your wages and benefits to a pittance. Please invite me to watch the "Epic Fail" "Lastly, to those of you who are complaining about benefits and summers off, you chose your profession, I chose mine"

Stephen Landes

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 3:05 p.m.

And he earned every penny of it. The company has been turned around and did not file for bankruptcy. The product is tremendously better, quality is higher, value to the customer is great, and the measure of his value to the company is tracked every minute in the stock price. Yes, I'll pay him $50 million for demonstrated performance. And if he fails to perform he gets fired. Sounds like a good model for teachers, too.

dlb

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 2:17 p.m.

Classic GOP tactic. Demonize unions and pensions, keep the focus off the lopsided flat tax structure in the State that favors the wealthy. Seek to truly understand the issues before shooting off your mouths. Unions are a necessary force for balancing the interests of corporations and self-serving politicians. If some of the moneyed, conservative interests had their way in this country, we would all be working for $10/month! Hey, workers in 3rd world countries do it, why can't you? The reality is that public pensions were well funded until a couple of years ago. A combination of the stock market crash and short-sighted theft of the pension funds by politicians created this "crisis" - NOT because of "greedy" public employees.

Tom Whitaker

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 2:13 p.m.

I'm proud to pledge my support for teachers, publicly and forcefully, and using my real name. Thank you for your tireless dedication, your long hours, and your willingness to always put in just a little more work to help a struggling student. Please don't be discouraged by the anonymous commenters on this blog. If they can't even stand up and attach their real names to their rants, they are no threat to you, and they certainly don't represent the majority opinion.

David Briegel

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 5:21 p.m.

Excellent post Tom! If we can't respect our teachers more than the Banksters and the Corporatists, we are truly in trouble. We are so fortunate to have great educators in our midst. They make Ann Arbor a better and more desireable place to live!

Cindy Heflin

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 2:11 p.m.

Comments that violate our conversation policy have been removed. Please don't resort to name-calling.

macjont

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 2:56 a.m.

Staff, I have a suggestion. Why don't you attempt to take both the underlying article and the comments in response and attempt to frame the issue being discussed. In 30 years of practicing law, I learned that identifying and articulating the issues was an essential part addressing the problem at hand. With the issues properly framed, perhaps the comments would be more valuable.

ebgb

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 2:09 p.m.

Many states have ruled that organizing and participating in trade or labor unions is constitutionally protected. That is a fact. The current wave of legislation in Michigan, seems to be an attempt to undermine that constitutionally protected activity. Historically, workers unions have improved the status of all workers by paving the way for regulations guarding the rights of all other workers. Another constitutionally protected 'right' is for local communities to elect officials to represent them - including village boards and school boards. Under much of the legislation currently being passed in the Michigan Legislature, these rights are being eroded. Teachers and other public employees are just the first and perhaps the most organized groups to express outrage. Most communities will not like it if someone, not chosen (elected) by you, can come into your community and tell you how to live.

schlomo

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 2:05 p.m.

It IS ALL ABOUT THE STUDENTS. Snyder will take the taxes you pay for your child's education. It's the use of your tax dollars that's at stake here. What are WE going to do about that? Stop letting the uninformed comments distract us from the issue.

greg, too

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 2:03 p.m.

"Lastly, to those of you who are complaining about benefits and summers off, you chose your profession, I chose mine. If you wanted to work weekdays, have vacations and good benefits you could have easily chosen education but you didn't. I don't complain when companies get bonuses, profit sharing checks, overtime or any other perks. These are items I will never see in my line of work. Many of you complaining get some or all of those options." Just reposting this from a previous poster. We chose to get into this field to educate your children and this is how you repay teachers? Cut their wages, cut the funds they need to do their jobs, and then rip them to shreds when they fight back? I will never see a golden parachute of millions of dollars, I will never be able to go to work drunk or have a third of my work be recalled due to poor craftsmanship, and with the cut in pay, I will never be able to pay off my student loans that I took so I could educate your children. If you think you can do better, then as one poster said, home school your kids to get them out of our evil "secular education." If not, shut up and fund us to do the job you do not want to do. And to the posters who are blaming people who buy foreign cars, that has no relevance to this topic at all. Am I a teacher you would like because we drive a chronically failing chevy?

Moscow On The Huron

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 3:06 p.m.

"I will never see a golden parachute of millions of dollars" Same for us private-sector, non-unionized employees. "I will never be able to go to work drunk" Same for us private-sector, non-unionized employees. "and with the cut in pay" Same for us private-sector, non-unionized employees. "I will never be able to pay off my student loans" Same for us private-sector, non-unionized employees. "shut up and fund us to do the job you do not want to do." Is that attitude required for the job, or is it optional?

EyeHeartA2

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 2:17 p.m.

"I will never be able to go to work drunk" Funny you should say that. I know of several who have done just that. Their union backed them to the hilt, of course.

Jim Mulchay

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 2:03 p.m.

Tough choices abound; Is there a state fiscal crisis? I believe there is. The governor has submitted a plan to address the crisis - that is his responsibility; There are a lot of complaints about the governor's plan. Those go to our elected officials - then it is their responsibility to act as they feel necessary for the good of the state. I'd have preferred to see the MEA try to get the cooperation of the various school districts, boards of education and superintendents to act as a single voice for students in Lansing (maybe they did?). Is a "crisis activity" justified? that's for the MEA members to decide on their own. If this is the "NEW" model of government - elect officials, then shut the place down when we don't agree with the elected officials decision, it makes it unlikely that much of anything will get fixed in Michigan.

AMOC

Tue, Mar 29, 2011 : 1:54 a.m.

Jim- This is apparently what the Democrats and their perennial supporters in the teachers union consider to be the new model of government. It certainly makes their complaints about Republicans being the "Party of No" ring rather hollow to me.

macjont

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 3 a.m.

If there is a state fiscal crisis, how do you justify reducing taxes as Snyder is proposing? The crisis is, in part, manufactured to pursue an ideological agenda. Rachel Maddow has hit it on the head.

stillatownie

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 1:59 p.m.

Boy, the super rich republicans and their allies really pulled a fast one on us - turning the have-littles against the have-nots (and themselves). This has little to do with balancing budgets and more to do with a twisted political agenda. They can destroy a huge part of their opponents' base, while at the same time keeping their base ignorant and uniformed - just how they like them.

snapshot

Sat, Mar 26, 2011 : 7:08 p.m.

Oh well, live and learn. We'll see what happens. All those "ingnorant" people did vote though. Dems got a "schooling" maybe they need a remedial class to learn their lessons. If that doesn't do the trick, we may have to hold them back a grade.

schlomo

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 1:52 p.m.

Thanks Cash for making the most important point. I'm quite sure Snyder is very amused by all this bickering among us. Don't people see that we're ALl in this together? Divide and conquer is the classic strategy. I think those who dominate these negative attacks probably work for Snyder.

Audion Man

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 1:51 p.m.

I think if we would just cut taxes to zero and eliminate unions, we would experience infinate employment.

thinker

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 1:42 p.m.

The children of Ann Arbor will certainly NOT suffer if the teachers go on a protracted strike. Their parents can home school them, and they'll do better on their tests later. The can learn family values, not the secular humanism taught by the teachers. As public employees they cannot strike, but since when has that stopped them? Belt tightening has to be done by everyone--they get NO sympathy from me!

macjont

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 3 a.m.

Haaaaaaaaa!

Wolf's Bane

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 2:45 p.m.

Oh, good. You sound like Sarah Palin.

EyeHeartA2

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 1:38 p.m.

The MEA is in danger of overplaying their hand. If they go on strike they will lose the sympathy of a lot of people. Their UAW brothers may continue to support them (despite the Honda's and Toyota's that jam the faculty parking lots), but they will lose the support of a large number of their customers (who oh-by-the-way) pay their wages. I wonder if the Air Traffic Controllers Union told their members they couldn't possibly all be fired?

DonBee

Fri, Mar 25, 2011 : 5:04 p.m.

Macjont - Yes, the new unionized air traffic controllers are no better than the old unionized controllers.

macjont

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 3:02 a.m.

Read the Washington Post for today to see how well we've been served by the firing of the Air Traffic Controllers.

EyeHeartA2

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 3:26 p.m.

I tried to respond earlier, but I think the peoples ministry of propaganda has me on double secret probation. But, yes, this is clearly one of the seven signs. I think this may be twice in a week or so. Plus, I was getting sick of Richrod, so that's three at least.

jondhall

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 3:19 p.m.

When the Ghost agrees with you , you must have concern.

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 1:43 p.m.

Exactly my point above, eyeheart. We agree? Again???? The apocalypse must be near! ;-) Good Night and Good Luck

xmo

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 1:36 p.m.

Snyder was elected to run the state, legally. The teachers belong to unions which fund legislators, so why does the teachers union want to engage in illegal strikes? Fight the battles in the capital not in the classroom! First, they are setting a bad example and second they show that they do not respect authority.

David Briegel

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 5:13 p.m.

And the wealthy don't fund govt? Seriously? Slick just bought the office! Ignatz, good point about earning respect!

Ignatz

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 3:40 p.m.

I don't respect authority just because they are the authories. They have to earn it. I'm not even a teacher!

Plubius

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 1:33 p.m.

Why don't the teacher's hold their collective breath until their faces turn blue. That is just as professional/adult as going on strike.

Lisa

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 12:36 a.m.

Plubius Because I'm certain doctors, lawyers and engineers would stand silently by while the entire political class badmouthed their work, cut their funding and demanded better services at the same time? It is adult to stand up and speak out against something or someone when they are wrong, when what they are doing will hurt entire generations of kids. THAT is what Snyder is doing.

stunhsif

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 1:29 p.m.

Surprised ,no. Disappointed, yes !

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 1:26 p.m.

I support teachers. I support their right to bargain collectively . I do not support the MEA, and this desperate measure is one of MANY reason why I do not. From where I stand, the MEA has been sitting on the sidelines for years, providing little leadership and no politically feasible solutions to the problems that face our state and its membership. The time to act was six years ago. Or two years ago. Or, even, three months ago. This is MUCH too late and it is evidence of one of the MEA's leadership's MANY manifest failures: a complete inability to think strategically, to forward plan, to create the future rather than respond to the past. And this, it strikes me, is potential suicide. It reminds me of Mel Brooks's film, "Blazing Saddles." You remember that scene: The black sheriff points a gun at his head and says "Don't nobody move, or the [name redacted] gets it." In that scene the townspeople are so dumb that they let the sheriff escape. I doubt that the MEA's enemies are that stupid. They'll let the MEA pull that trigger. In fact, I think it just did. Good Night and Good Luck

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 6:35 p.m.

"The pattern is typical of all unions." No, it is not. And it certainly is not typical of all locals within a union. But it is much too typical of the leadership of the MEA. Good Night and Good Luck

Mick52

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 6:27 p.m.

I agree Ghost. The pattern is typical of all unions. Demand no change no matter what, then stand holding a union card unemployed some day. Also unions eat their young. When budgets tighten, those with less seniority get laid off. Not much protection there. I long for people to start saying, "what can we do to help?" Not "No, No No" And if you provide more funding for schools that means some other union's employees will take the hit. Union vs union is the part of the struggle here.

Lisa

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 5:05 p.m.

Ghost, This article was the first I've heard of this. All we've been told is that the union was holding a meeting next week. No, I don't believe striking is a good option. But there are many, many other ways that we can stand up for schools and our students without disrupting learning and those should be initiated. Perhaps should have been initiated a long time ago. We're reaching the point where we will have to close schools even in Ann Arbor if this death by a thousand cuts isn't stopped.

JSA

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 4:20 p.m.

Very well stated. I doubt the MEA will learn though.

Roy Munson

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 1:22 p.m.

The world has changed. When are you going to accept that?

Lisa

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 12:34 a.m.

You mean the state can't keep demanding more services from its public schools while cutting funding? I agree.

Mick52

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 6:21 p.m.

His point Alan, is the state cannot keep doing what it has been doing.

alan

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 1:25 p.m.

What is your point?

Alan Benard

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 1:21 p.m.

Every organized education employee in the state should walk out for a week. The roar of protest from working parents would result in Snyder's recall by the end of the year. Nothing less is called for -- this is an existential crisis for organized labor.

Mike

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 8:06 p.m.

I went to school in the Crestwood school district where they fired every teacher in the 1970's for an illegal strike. As a student I didn't miss one of them nor did it affect my education. I paid less per year for private school and my son received a far better education than what the public schools gave him. Bottom line is reform is way past due, you have a right to protect but the school board has a right to fire you and the public will support them.

Mick52

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 6:19 p.m.

It would the children who will roar when the school year is extending one more week into the summer.

DonBee

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 6:10 p.m.

Still my beating heart EMG and I agree on something. MEA is making the wrong move.

Kelly Davenport

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 5:07 p.m.

Lisa, moderators have removed several comments referring to people as "thugs" or employing other name-calling. There may have been a lag as we caught up with a fast-moving and long discussion thread. If you see other comments that seem to violate conversation guidelines, please flag them and we'll take another look. Thanks.

Lisa

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 5:03 p.m.

Kelly, Is calling teachers greedy, selfish and thugs sticking to the heart of the matter? Because there are a ton of comments on this board doing so that have been left up.

Kelly Davenport

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 4:03 p.m.

Please keep your comments focused on the heart of the matter at hand, and not on each other.

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 3:46 p.m.

"Once the news starts showing teachers strolling around Lansing with their Hitler signs (yes, they did that in Wisconsin)," Yes, comparing one's enemies to Hitler is SOOOOOOOO much worse than comparing them to communists (through your name and use of the hammer and sickle). Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Good Night and Good Luck

Moscow On The Huron

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 3:30 p.m.

ERMG is right on this one. If they strike the public will lash out at them, especially because parents everywhere will need to hire babysitters so they can go do their jobs. There aren't very many families around anymore that have one parent at home. Once the news starts showing teachers strolling around Lansing with their Hitler signs (yes, they did that in Wisconsin), while the rest of us are still working, they will lose all support. Add to that extending the school year into Summer (some districts used up all their slack on snow days), it will be a very unfriendly mess.

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 2:10 p.m.

Read my post below for my full feeling on the subject. Bottom line: I believe the MEA (the organization, not its members) is terribly run, top heavy, and lacks foresight. And, frankly, this is a strategically stupid move. If there is anything less than overwhelming support for this from the membership, the MEA will be the emperor who has no clothes. Even a 60-40 vote will harm the organization badly. If the MEA dies, it will be by suicide. As for progressive support: The MEA is proposing an illegal strike. I know it's old fashioned, but there are those of us who think that following the law is important, especially for those who teach our children. Good Night and Good Luck

Alan Benard

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 1:52 p.m.

If the teacher's union has this level of support among progressives in Michigan, then they should resign en masse. There truly is no hope for professional standards and an honest working relationship between labor and management in this state under these conditions. Let public education fall.

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 1:49 p.m.

We'll have to agree to disagree. When the AAEA went on strike in 1994 (might have been '95) it deeply divided this community, a community whose cottage industry is education. If A2 was so deeply divided over a teacher strike (legal at the time), I can only imagine how the state will respond to an illegal teacher strike now. I know I won't support it, and I think my track record on the A2.com discussions are clear regarding what I think about Snyder's and the legislature's agenda. Good Night and Good Luck

Alan Benard

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 1:40 p.m.

ERMG, a general strike or even rolling strikes is the neutron bomb of labor relations. If they had used it six years ago they wouldn't be in business today.

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 1:28 p.m.

I disagree. Working parents' anger will be focused on the teachers who caused their problem. This is a monstrously stupid move on the MEA's part. Good Night and Good Luck

scott hummel

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 1:17 p.m.

Okay, as a teacher, I feel that I need to respond to this article. First of all, the teachers aren't going to strike. It will cost them $300 PER DAY to strike. If you know any teachers that can pony up $1500 per week to walk in a picket line, let me know what district they are in...I'll apply immediately. Secondly, some of you are looking at the comment posted by @ Moscow on the Huron and blindly saying "hey look there!!! they are voting no!" You don't know these people or anything about them. That is precisely the problem here. People hear what they want to hear, then forge ahead without any sort of knowledge or basis for their arguments. Lastly, to those of you who are complaining about benefits and summers off, you chose your profession, I chose mine. If you wanted to work weekdays, have vacations and good benefits you could have easily chosen education but you didn't. I don't complain when companies get bonuses, profit sharing checks, overtime or any other perks. These are items I will never see in my line of work. Many of you complaining get some or all of those options. Before you start casting stones about benefits, look in the mirror and think about losing some of yours. As far as the pension goes, I have no problem taxing the pension though I believe if people are already retired you should not be taxing them. They have made a conscious decision on a fixed income, to lower that income is completely unfair. Tax those of us who will be retiring in the future and can make decisions with that reduced income in mind.

A2Realilty

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 1:26 a.m.

Excellent response. Too bad that you didn't teach many others on this board how to form and express thoughts effectively.

Felicia

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 10:24 p.m.

Thank you for your intelligent comments. There arent many posted these days.

tim

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 1:17 p.m.

Lets be realistic people - Nobody goes into teaching to get rich. If you took one years worth educational costs of going into teaching and instead bought a truck and a lawn mower you would make more money. Everyone wants to point fingers when things get bad. One answer that would have helped tremendously would have been a single payer health care system ( would have lowered costs by 40% ) but that was too radical for the Right, so instead they want to go into the union busting business. Protect big business-- crush little guy-- same old story ,same old song and dance.

tim

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 7:21 p.m.

To all who replied to my comment -- I think all teachers private/public should have unions-- but I also believe that parents should be allowed to have vouchers to choose the best school for their children.

tim

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 7:17 p.m.

Mick 52 go to the world health organization web page -- look at per-capita health care costs-- look at life expectancy -- We pay twice as much and don't live as long as countries overseas. You can't judge the US system by what goes on in A2-- things are pretty good in lower michigan.

tim

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 7:11 p.m.

Donbee the benefits are the reason people stay in teaching. Talk to AM snow removal and lawn care if you want a name.

Mick52

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 6:17 p.m.

Single payer health care systems do not lower costs. Nothing lowers costs of health care. Health care is expensive and it cannot be made inexpensive. A single payer system cannot be imposed in the US across the board.

DonBee

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 6:09 p.m.

Tim - Please give me the name of a guy with a truck and a lawn mower who has been in business for 15 years that makes $80,000 in pay, has a defined benefit pension, can retire at 55 and get free health care for life.

jondhall

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 2:46 p.m.

How about we reduce the school year to Eight months a year. A so called professional group needs a union?

Cash

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 1:15 p.m.

To complete my post above - Being rich is fine. Being rich and complaining about the salaries of hourly workers, not so fine. Being rich and driving economic policy that raises taxes on people making $17,000 a year and middle-class retirees to boost your company's profits?

DonBee

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 6:07 p.m.

Cash at $17,000 a year if there are 2 people in the house, the standard deduction means no Federal tax liability if you are claiming your deductions. And if you have no liability at the Federal level, then you have no liability at the state level.

treetowncartel

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 2:04 p.m.

That is easy, make gasoline cheap again.

grye

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 1:49 p.m.

You complain mightly about taxes, the wealthy, and the business. However businesses employ people and considering our current economic state, we need more jobs. What is your plan to help businesses grow?

Cash

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 1:12 p.m.

Snyder appointed Business Leaders for Michigan (BLM) CEO Doug Rothwell to chair the Michigan Economic Development Corporation (MEDC) Board of Directors. Another BLM member, Jeff Fettif, Whirlpool Corporation CEO, occupies the #2 Vice Chair position at MEDC. Snyder appointed four other BLM corporate members to the MEDC board. This gives BLM — a private organization — virtual control over an agency that makes decisions regarding tens of millions of taxpayer dollars and sets economic policy for the state. So, who is Business Leaders for Michigan? They are an 81-member politically connected group of top corporate executives, all of whom have deep pockets. They include more than 21 CEOs who make $1 million or more in compensation a year — often way more. Fifteen members of BLM's executive committee have given more than $2.3 million in political contributions, the vast majority going to the Republican Party and its candidates. These wealthy BLM CEOs — 21 of whom collectively make more than $107.5 million a year — have championed the notion that the state's budget problems are caused by overcompensated public employees. Who really controls Michigan today?

1ofalpha

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 5:44 p.m.

@David. Oh my. Sometimes I just forget my lot in life...how could I have such silly notions? Thanks...appreciate the humor--we're going to need plenty of humor to survive this. I'm waiting for re-location notices "to cut costs."

David Briegel

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 5:04 p.m.

Alpha, they are the victorious Class Warriors! We dare not speak of "them". Only the middle class are to blame!

1ofalpha

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 3:46 p.m.

@Cash. I really appreciate the clear identification of the "Power Elite." For some reason unknown to me it seems that many people simply don't understand just how this works--what a "rigged gig" this is, and who always takes the bump. If we had more documentation we might get this on the national stage. The language of cutting costs obviously does not include the very wealthy, proportionately, and reinforces the false belief that these individuals/organizations/clubs...will "trickle down" their bulk to the benefit of the economy. If you have more data, I'd appreciate it.

alan

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 1:08 p.m.

I wonder why teachers have become scapegoats. @macabresunset- Michigan teachers rank about 10th nationally in compensation, not first. They are 49th out of 50 states in 10 year percentage increase in compensation. The average starting salary in Michigan is about $35,000 for a person with a master's degree equivalent. That's pretty poor. The average compensation for k-12 is less than $55,000. Not great. They don't just work 9 months. Most of them work 10-12 hour days because they have to take their prep and grading home with them. I notice a generally poor attitude toward anyone who is paid with tax dollars. It's no wonder that we can't find bright students who want to become teachers. It's a crappy job. That said, I'm no fan of the MEA either. Defined benefit plans need to go. Pensions are one of the largest drains on budgets. But taking it out on the teachers isn't going to improve the quality of education. We used to have the best education system in the world and now it's pretty lousy. If this country is to survive I think it depends on educating our children.

say it plain

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 12:59 p.m.

Can anyone really be surprised that the response to Snyder's tactics be the same sorts of bullying-type activities that he's using?! Is he saying, hey, what I care most about is helping Michigan's children become the bright future of our state by streamlining non-instructional costs and keeping classrooms the best they can be? He comes at this with a totally adversarial position, not even attempting to build consensus goals and have that 'vision thing' about cost-savings plans that make sense and minimize pain. Given his particular circumstance of needing to deal with lots of lower- and mid-income pain-making *in addition* to the union-busting agenda of the GOP, I wouldn't be surprised that his 'positives' on the ratings polls will be even lower than his neighboring-state executives. I guess we all have to just trust in the largesse of the monied and entrepreneurial types, and wait hoping to catch the trickles, but his style of running things like the CEO that he is doesn't inspire confidence. Because governing and running a company aren't quite the same thing, and the false equivalence diminishes us all as people. At least the whole GOP charade is often more palatable when the person performing is better at convincing us that he feels our pain. But when you elect self-funded CEOs who run on their alleged 'nerdiness' that's lots harder to pull off! The disconnect between celebrating 'nerdiness' and cutting education like he's doing is not a good look for a new governor!

David Briegel

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 4:57 p.m.

We'll see where his "consensus" is fairly soon I think!

Stephen Landes

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 2:27 p.m.

Governor Snyder did build a consensus. We call it an election. He was elected on a platform of reinventing Michigan because Michigan is broken -- it is not "fixable". We have a system that is out of balance and it is driving employers away from our state. If we want to grow our state, increase employment, increase revenue to the state for the kinds of services people think they want then we need to do something radically different from what the previous administration tried to do for eight years. If you don't like the Governor's plan then you need to get some people together to come up with an alternate COMPREHENSIVE plan that will get the job done.

Roger Roth

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 12:54 p.m.

@Moscow on the Huron writes, "The teacher in our home will be voting "no" because we know we have it way better than most working in the state, we're not falling for the MEA's bogus, apocalyptic message, we know money isn't the problem (get rid of the horrible teachers instead), it's illegal (oh, yeah, minor point), and the only thing these "job actions" will do is turn the public against the teachers." I rest my case.

Rita

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 12:50 p.m.

Ditto "mw" comments. Michigan is at the bottom of the heap economically, and the only state to have lost residents in the latest census. A corporation with similar conditions would make drastic cuts. I value and appreciate the job that teachers and gov't employees do, but where is the money supposed to come from to support their "Cadillac" benefits.....while the people who pay the taxes are experiencing cut backs, foreclosures, job losses??? Michigan was built on the automotive industry.....just keep buying foreign name plates sending profits overseas, while watching this state crumble and wondering what happened......

Mick52

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 6:10 p.m.

That is a common comment ebgb, but it makes no sense. There are very few legislators and even if their pay was cut, it would have no real effect. Your comment, like many others, offers no real solution to the problem Rita points out. The fact is that what Michigan has been doing does not work any more. Something must be done and the Gov has every right to put a plan in place. If you have a real solution, post that.

DonBee

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 6:05 p.m.

ebgb - Pull a petition to do this and I will be first in line to sign it. Let's change the state constitution and stop anyone elected to office from ever getting any benefits after they leave office.

ebgb

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 2:32 p.m.

If we are to begin criticizing the benefits of state employees - lets start with the legislators! As far as funding, not for "Cadillac" benefits but to keep schools providing current materials and enough teachers to keep class sizes manageable, let's look to the School Aid Fund that was raided by the Governor and Legislature. According to the Michigan Association of School Administrators, that amounts to $896,000,000 foing to State Universities and Community Collages and NOT to K-12 education! Education is declining in Michigan not because teachers have good benefits, education is declining in Michigan because educators are continually being required to do more with less!

treetowncartel

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 12:49 p.m.

Hey, when they strike all you bashers can leave your current jobs or endeavor and go take this cakewalk of an assignment and reduce your wages and benefits to a pittance. Please invite me to watch the "Epic Fail".

treetowncartel

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 2:16 a.m.

@ DonBee, good point. I have two daughters, background checks are overhead we can't do away with.

DonBee

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 8:11 p.m.

Treetowncartel - If the administration would allow volunteers to teach during any strike, I would be willing to go into the classrooms and teach. I doubt they will allow it to happen, after all we would need background checks and special training and.... all the other professional stuff we lack. On the other hand, I just finished 4 hours with a 7th grade class in Boston, it was a wonderful day and even the teachers enjoyed it (maybe only because they did not have to do lesson plans). I feel like I got the knowledge across - some of it in very unconventional ways.

Moscow On The Huron

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 1:43 p.m.

This is the root of the misinformation: the lie that teachers make less than everybody else, or even less than the average. It's simply not true. They are doing VERY well, in both pay and benefits (especially benefits). I know this first hand by being a part of a household with a public school teacher in it. For some people, changing to teaching would result in a reduction in pay. For others, it wouldn't. For those without jobs, it wouldn't. For those who have taken pay cuts, it wouldn't. For those who are on reduced hours, it wouldn't. And as far as the "cakewalk of an assignment," same thing. Some could handle it and would enjoy it, some couldn't.

Wolf's Bane

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 12:33 p.m.

Wonderful, now we have the teacher union drawing lines in the sand! Justified? Yes. But, again, Ricky Snyder's rampant slashing and burning will only effect our children negatively, not his!!! Ah, to be rich, powerful, and to have the least bit of regard for his fellow citizens and his constituent's children. Reminds me of a story: This scorpion approaches a pond and needs to get across. He spots a beautiful frog and asked the frog to ferry him across. The Frog looks at him bewildered and says: "No, because you'll sting me and then I will die!" The Scorpion replies, "Naw, I won't. I need to get across... and you're my ticket, so why would I sting you and kill us both?" The Frog replies: "Okay, I guess I can trust you." So, the Scorpion crawls on top of the Frog and they embark on their crossing. About halfway, in the middle of the pond, the Frog yells out: "Ah, you stung me Scorpion... why!? Why did you do that? Now we'll both drown...ack." Before the Scorpion disappears below the surface, he replies: "Because it is in my nature."

Wolf's Bane

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 12:13 p.m.

@Mick52, it is called an analogy: Drawing a comparison in order to show a similarity in some respect; "the operation of a computer presents and interesting analogy to the working of the brain"; "the models show by analogy how matter is built up" See, a little education goes a long way.

Wolf's Bane

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 12:11 p.m.

36 people agree. :)

Mick52

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 6:06 p.m.

Real pertinent to this issue Bill.

B2Pilot

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 12:33 p.m.

So the teachers Union is going to threaten to strike if they don't get what they want!!! like spoiled kids! My wife took a 10K a year pay cut to keep her job, I have friends who have gone to a 4 day work week to keep their co-workers working, i have a friend who was asked to take a 15% pay cut 3 years ago to keep their employer in business. The Union continues to attack the middle class - How dare you! We have passed every millage increase you have come to us with over the years and now you threaten to strike if you don't get to keep everything you have !! The middle class is paying your wages and benefits We are in a recession if you havn't figured it out yet! Don't be surprised the next time you come to us for a millage increase that it goes down in flames and your Union run school board is voted out! Unbelievable!!

DonBee

Fri, Mar 25, 2011 : 2:50 a.m.

Lisa - 1 millage, poorly explained does not equal all. Almost every millage AAPS has asked for in the last 20 years has passed.

Wolf's Bane

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 12:17 p.m.

@ stduilder, actually I started one company and have been employed at 4 others. I have always believed in hard work, but also in being efficient and hiring the best. Hence, my perspective. I think anyone who works over 50 hours a week and is self employed or runs their own company is doing something VERY wrong. Again, the right education equals the right opportunities, equals the ability to recognize and fix inefficiencies. Perspective and smarts.

Lisa

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 12:28 a.m.

Actually, every millage hasn't passed and many teaching positions have been cut as a result.

sbbuilder

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 10:39 p.m.

bill Most likely, you have been an employee all of your working life. Thus, your perspective. Try running your own business and you'll probably recant much of what you've written.

DonBee

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 6:03 p.m.

Anyone who works works more now than people did 20 years ago, get used to it. There are billions of people in the world who want your job. Ask any IT professional about outsourcing to India. Ask any teen in a town with a theme park about the visa'ed workers who take their summer jobs. You all helped get us there. Shop a Wal-Mart or Target? You just sent your money to China and Vietnam. Drive a Honda or Nissan, while they might be assembled here many of the labor intensive parts are done elsewhere. Doctors are not unskilled and most of them work weekends their whole career. Welcome to the new America. With hard work you can stay employed.

Moscow On The Huron

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 3:16 p.m.

"Do you think Snyder works weekends?" I'm sure he does. "Do you think teachers do?" They sure as heck do. The one I know works evenings, weekends, and summer, correcting papers, planning lessons, going to training classes, calling parents, preparing for conferences, buying and/or making supplies. Without complaining.

Wolf's Bane

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 2:49 p.m.

Yeah, if you have no education, you can pretty much count on working weekends for the rest of your life. Do you think Snyder works weekends? Do you think teachers do? I don't (unless, I have deadline). Education = Power. If Snyder gets his way, the very poor will have less power and bag your groceries... paper or plastic?

Moscow On The Huron

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 1:36 p.m.

Oh, no, working on a weekend? That's a civil rights violation! Bill, do you ever go to the grocery store on weekends? A bar? A restaurant? A movie? The drive-through window at the bank? A stage play? The emergency room at the hospital? These all require people to work on weekends. So let's get unions for all of them so they don't have to work on weekends, and then everything will be closed from 5pm Friday until 8am Monday. Including the emergency rooms at the hospitals.

Wolf's Bane

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 12:34 p.m.

Without unions, you would be working weekends. If you don't already do.

jasna

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 12:32 p.m.

It's one thing to strike when you are actually in negotiations and there is a contract dispute. It's quite another thing to strike because you don't like the way the governor plans to manage future crisis.

jondhall

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 12:25 p.m.

Teachers Union what a novel idea, why not work them 12 months out of the year? I have some really great ideas for improvement, it is called long hard hours. Merit based pay, like the rest of the country has. No defined benefit plans. Supply your own Health Care or get on the Obama plan, like you voted for. A professional group needs a Union, is that an oxymoron?

michaywe

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 3:36 a.m.

Individuals who can, do. Individuals who can't, teach (in public schools, not private or charter)! MEA makes the profession look and act like factory workers. They should be treated the same - no job security and enjoy benefits like their comrades! Teacher's, lose your union, it is giving you a bad name!

Lisa

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 12:23 a.m.

Nurses have unions. Do you believe they are not professionals? Doctors and lawyers have 'professional organizations'. How is that really different from a union?

Basic Bob

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 11:14 p.m.

They need a union because they are not professional, they are trained to do a specific job, like most everybody else. Doctors and lawyers do not DEMAND respect for their vocation, they earn it.

Jonny Spirit

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 4:10 p.m.

So only unprofessional people need unions. Are you calling line worker for Fords stupid or your not smart enough to negotiate. Careful what you say "jondhall" you may be poking the wrong bear with a short stick. Your comments are ridiculous and I guess only your job is hard work and long hours.

Roger Roth

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 12:21 p.m.

The aristocracy in this state and country is flirting with danger. We're in a class war. Keep pushing, and the masses of middle class and under will finally stop fighting amongst themselves as they do here (which abets the wealthy agenda) and direct their anger and action where it belongs. This country is in big trouble. Read the signs. You doing OK by no means indicates things are rosy for the rest of the country. Think, like your teachers taught you to.

Lisa

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 6:26 p.m.

Ben, Teachers are taxpayers too.

The Ben

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 6:04 p.m.

What on Earth are you talking about? Teachers' salaries are partially paid by middle class people. Your definition of "middle class" is way too narrow. It doesn't necessarily mean "union member." Everyone wants to make the Republicans out to be evil villains, but this isn't Ford or GM. Republicans don't pay for teacher salaries. They don't get to pocket what the teachers give up. My self-employed, dad who brings home $40,000 per year without benefits, pays for teacher salaries. So the teachers are going to get all riled up so that people like him have to keep paying for their retirement? What a joke. The only "class warfare" happening here is the Protected Class (government workers) vs the Unprotected Class (taxpayers).

DonBee

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 5:56 p.m.

Class war? The public union class vs the taxpayer class? The political class vs the taxpayer class? The welfare class vs the taxpayer class? The Private middle class vs the public upper class? The retired class vs the working class? Which classes are you talking about?

Wolf's Bane

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 12:35 p.m.

What are you going to do, rebel? Rise up? No, because you have too many bills.

Top Cat

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 12:15 p.m.

Teachers and Public Employees work for us the taxpayers. We do not work for their Unions. It is time to draw a line in the sand and make this absolutely clear.

David Briegel

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 4:48 p.m.

Like that line we drew for the Wall St Banksters who created this mess?

Moscow On The Huron

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 12:08 p.m.

Nice example for the kids: making plans to engage in illegal activities. Very nice. I have three words for Michigan teachers: air traffic controllers. Any teacher who strikes should be fired immediately. "But we don't have enough new teachers to replace them." Well, what's the difference? If they illegally abandon the classroom and are hanging around Lansing doing the "Hey, hey, ho, ho" thing, they're not in the classroom anyway. Unemployed teachers who want to do dedicated work instead of bicker and complain will flock to Michigan to take the open jobs. According to the letter sent home to teachers yesterday, if they are fired the MEA plans to clog the courts for months and even years forcing districts to prove each and every teacher was participating in strike activities. Well, let's all help out - let's all get out there with our video cameras and catch every one of them on the picket line and provide the film to the courts. The teacher in our home will be voting "no" because we know we have it way better than most working in the state, we're not falling for the MEA's bogus, apocalyptic message, we know money isn't the problem (get rid of the horrible teachers instead), it's illegal (oh, yeah, minor point), and the only thing these "job actions" will do is turn the public against the teachers.

DonBee

Fri, Mar 25, 2011 : 5:02 p.m.

Hey Macjont - Note that the Air Control's Union issued a statement about the sleeping air controller today. So they too are unionized again.

macjont

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 12:17 a.m.

Hey Moscow. How's that air traffic controllers thing working out? Read: Tower at Reagan National goes silent as planes attempt to land at: <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/tower-at-reagan-national-goes-silent-as-planes-attempt-to-land/2011/03/23/AB9aslKB_story.html?hpid=z2" rel='nofollow'>http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/tower-at-reagan-national-goes-silent-as-planes-attempt-to-land/2011/03/23/AB9aslKB_story.html?hpid=z2</a> We really showed 'em! So you want to do the same thing to our schools. Right?

Mick52

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 5:53 p.m.

Well put Moscow.

Lisa

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 5:49 p.m.

Moscow on the Huron, AAPS teachers have the right to not join the union.

Ignatz

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 3:36 p.m.

Moscow, It doesn't have to be MLK-like to resist what's wrong. Many large negative issues started out as smaller ones.

Moscow On The Huron

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 3:12 p.m.

Roy is correct. There are also a lot of teachers in private schools who would love to move to the public schools for an increase in pay. From most private schools, that is, not including a couple high-brow ones in and around Ann Arbor.

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 3:11 p.m.

"Also... it's only the lazy, ineffective teachers who are afraid of losing the union." This is one of MANY lies conservatives tell themselves. With no unions school districts will not fire poor teachers. The will fire expensive teachers because firing expensive teachers will save them more money. They are expensive because they are experienced. And because they are experienced they frequently are the best teachers. Moreover, I've known more than a few teachers in my lifetime who would have been fired, not because they were "poor", but because they dared challenge administration for stupid decisions that would have harmed children. The union protected those good teachers. And this unveils another lie that conservatives tell themselves: people who get fired deserved to get fired. All too frequently that is not the case. They get fired for personality conflict. They get fired because they are smarter than their supervisor and therefore are a threat. They get fired because they report safety violations, malfeasance, etc... Books could be written on the subject. Good Night and Good Luck

Moscow On The Huron

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 1:29 p.m.

Also... it's only the lazy, ineffective teachers who are afraid of losing the union. Those who work hard and are effective know they will excel even more once the union, whose soul purpose is to maintain the status-quo and protect the worst teachers, is out of the way. School administrators know who the bad teachers are. Parents know who they are. Other teachers know who they are. Even the students know who they are. Until we get rid of the system that keeps them in the classroom, bringing down educational, students will suffer. It's amazing to hear the left go on and on about "education is everything" and "without education we are all lost," but they won't do the one, simple, obvious thing that will fix many of the problems: replace the bad teachers.

Roy Munson

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 1:26 p.m.

There are PLENTY of teachers to replace them. A huge number of graduates from MI move down south to get jobs. They would love to come back here to teach in Michigan. Even in this era of cuts, it would be a nice salary increase to what they are used to getting in the South.

Moscow On The Huron

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 1:20 p.m.

Until public school teachers have the option of NOT joining the union, your talk of "rights" is ludicrous.

Cash

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 1:02 p.m.

I beg to differ. MLK was murdered in Memphis while supporting a group of city workers who were being pushed around by the city. This in fact IS a MLK moment.....taking away the collective bargaining rights of workers.

Moscow On The Huron

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 12:27 p.m.

Good try, Ignatz, but this isn't exactly one of those Martin Luther King Jr. moments. Like I pointed out, it's wrong for multiple reasons.

Moscow On The Huron

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 12:15 p.m.

And speaking of illegal, watch for those doctors handing out bogus get-out-of-class-sick notes like in Wisconsin.

Ignatz

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 12:11 p.m.

Illegal does not necessarily equal wrong.

drewk

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 12:02 p.m.

So first a 5% pay cut and additional health costs isn't enough. Now another 20% pay cut. I don't think so. My costs are going up just like everyone elses.

DonBee

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 5:53 p.m.

Take a 50% cut like my family did. Many Michigan families are struggling with how to make due with a lot less, including a large number of UAW members. Our choice was a job or no job. Not a fun choice. I don't want to see teacher salaries cut, it makes no sense, but their needs to be reform on the number of districts and administrative overhead.

jondhall

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 12:26 p.m.

Get a Summer job like the rest of America!

mw

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 11:51 a.m.

Michigan used to be one of the richest states in the country. Now it's getting close to the bottom 10. Michigan has 'lead' the nation in both population and per-capita income loss. And Synder wasn't responsible for any of that. It's inevitable that public employee wages are going to have to come into line with Michigan's new economic circumstances. Inevitable. But it can be done well or badly. I can be done as it has been in Detroit, where we see a seemingly endless spiral of crises, deficits, and deterioration in services leading to population loss and more deficits and crises. Or we can get ahead of the curve -- lowering costs while preserving the quality of services. Given that state government is mostly personnel costs, that's where the cost reductions are going to have to come from. In education, we need to get rid of the defined-benefit pensions, early retirements, and cushy health plans. These things need to be brought in line with what other Michiganders receive. We need to cut bloated administrations and non-instructional staffs. And if we're going to attract people and businesses to the state (or at least retain the ones we have), the quality needs to stay at least as good as what we have now even while we're reducing expenses. An intransigent MEA 'going to the mattresses' with 'crisis activities' and marches on Lansing is the last thing we need.

DonBee

Fri, Mar 25, 2011 : 5:01 p.m.

HJK - Considering Michigan is below the national average on reading and math scores in 4th and 8th grade on the NAEP, you don't have much to brag about.

HJK

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 7:02 p.m.

Continue cutting the pay for teachers and we can have schools like KY and TN. Yeah, that is a great plan. NOT!

Lisa

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 6:25 p.m.

Oh and Don, You do remember that adjusting dollars for inflation excludes costs like energy which have quadrupled.

Lisa

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 6:24 p.m.

Don Bee, Actually, what I would say was that before Proposal A, all of the extra funding that you want to include in the per pupil spending but can't be spent on things like gas, or teachers or books, my thought is that those funds were STILL separate back then and not part of the per pupil allotment. But I don't know for certain as I wasn't here. The other thing you know but like to ignore is that there have been significant increases in the obligations of school districts that have not been funded by the state or federal government.

DonBee

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 5:52 p.m.

Lisa - Not true and you know it. If you take the total revenue to AAPS - 1995 to today the numbers are up. You and the other advocates want to ignore all the locally raised funds. Be careful how you respond, there is a local millage coming up. If you say that local money does not count, some people may believe you at the ballot box. I want to see the millage pass, the kids deserve it, but the voters deserve honesty too.

Lisa

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 4:53 p.m.

It is unreasonable to expect the same level of services for far less. Our per pupil funding has dropped by $2000 in real terms since 1995 and still the cuts come.

Roger Roth

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 1:11 p.m.

Anything else have to "come into line with MI's new economic circumstances?" Like taxes, food prices, energy, tuition, all the usual drains on middle class buying power. Michigan is in trouble, first, because Big Three Mng. screw up royally, for years, then, we being vulnerable, pro-corporate, pro-financial industry DC socked it to all of us. Now, you want the middle class to continue taking the whip. What do you know about Snyder's corporate life that allows you to aver that "he wasn't responsible for any of that?"

KJMClark

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 11:27 a.m.

"Feel the pinch too, like everyone else" ***Everyone*** else??? You've got to be kidding. All those folks I see every week in their BMWs, Lexus, Porsches, Hummers, and Jaguars are feeling the pinch huh? ROTFLMAO! Sorry, but there are still a lot of *very* wealthy people, getting richer by the day, who aren't feeling any "pinch".

DonBee

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 5:49 p.m.

Northside - There was a Wall Street Journal in the breakfast place yesterday. In it was an editorial about Michigan. The editorial said "The war is over and the middle class lost in Michigan". We all lose when things go to this extreme.

Peter Jameson

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 5:07 p.m.

I can almost guarantee that charlie sheen is a democrat.

David Briegel

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 4:40 p.m.

northside, guess which class is winning? The Charlie Sheen class!

northside

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 2:07 p.m.

If you point out that the wealthy are doing great while the rest of us are asked to 'share the sacrifice' you get accused of "class warfare." But if you accuse teachers making an average of 50K a year of breaking the state's financial back? That's just good, sound logic.

Moscow On The Huron

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 12:11 p.m.

... and the thief who steals them would be a Lexicon?

Macabre Sunset

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 11:37 a.m.

Sometimes I wonder if the plural of Lexus should be Lexi. Anyway, nothing like a good ol' bout of class warfare to fire up the crowd. Let's create some more bogeymen... I see folks living in the suburbs in nice houses and COMMUTING... I see folks who don't recycle their #3 plastics... I see folks who shop at Nordstrom! Fun game, this class warfare stuff.

Cash

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 11:25 a.m.

From Free Press (not mentioned at Ann Arbor.com): Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder has quickly fallen out of favor, reaching levels of unpopularity lower than first-term Republican governors in neighboring states and almost as low as the end-of-term numbers reached by his Democratic predecessor, a new poll shows. The poll released by Public Policy Polling on Tuesday found half of Michiganders disapprove of Snyder's job performance, compared to 33% who approve. When former Democratic Gov. Jennifer Granholm left office in December, 57% of Michiganders disapproved of her job performance, compared to 34% who approved.

michaywe

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 3:12 a.m.

Popularity is only important to party hacks and insecure winning candidates. Nice to have a Governor who doesn't need the job or the salary - public service exemplified!

Will

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 11:15 a.m.

How much did "crisis activities" accomplish in Wisconsin for the teachers?

Tony Livingston

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 2:24 p.m.

It's not over yet in Wisconsin.

northside

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 1:30 p.m.

Um, they sparked a national movement?

Topher

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 11:06 a.m.

Teachers really shouldn't be paid at all. Perhaps there should be a trade of teaching for apples and water. We know, after all, that teachers should essentially be slaves to parents and students. The more we can make them indentured servants, the better. Let's not let these thug middle class citizens tell us what to do! Step up smarter citizens and fight for your right to put teachers in their places! They've gotten away with too much and need to be punished. I certainly hope for the day when all education is privatized and my students can be taught by great private enterprise such as Dow, or Domino's, or McKinley. Or robots.

Awakened

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 12:15 p.m.

Public education directed by the Federal Government through grants should end. Creating metrics to manage teaching (like "No Child Left Behind") is nuts. Teaching is not a numbers game. The goals should be set and funded locally.

HJK

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 6:53 p.m.

Great response!

Lisa

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 4:50 p.m.

And Macabre finally admits what this is really about... ending public education.

grye

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 1:37 p.m.

I do hope you are being sarcastic. Teachers have educational requirements that far exceed most other employment positions in this State. Their pay needs to show this. Granted, there are some bad teachers that have been protected by the union and some benefits are not in line with those of private industry. it would probably be justified to change the retirement system for new teachers coming on board. But as a whole, teachers are important and do a great job. If you are unhappy with the public school system, run for a seat on your local school board or just put your kids in private schools. Complaining about the problem doesn't solve it, actions do.

james Kurtz

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 11:27 a.m.

Parents senf their kids to school for several reasons: Some expect that their kids will receive an education that will enable them a decent job when they graduate. Some expect that they will learn enough that will enable them to go to college. Some expect that they will get enough good grades that will enable them to get an academic scholarship. Some expect that their kids might get a sports scholarship. Some expect them to just learn how to read and write and get along with other kids and some send them to school to just get them out of the house. Then there is the group of parents that have mentally and physically abused their child that want the school system to perform miracles and erase the abuse that the parents have performed on them. We see all these kids that you have read from the above statements and in 90% of the time we meet the parents expectations and yet many thinks we don't deserve the little money and benefits that we struggled for for over 70 years. You think we want to go on strike? Guess what we can't. Governor Engler saw to that in the early 90's when he signed a bill that said we would be fined 300.00 a day if we did. So don't worry about strikes; worry more about keeping us our jobs so we can meet your expectations because in reality you wouldn't be able to come close to meeting the expectations you expect and get from us.

Macabre Sunset

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 11:12 a.m.

Slavery? No. Not even in the Lincoln school district (Lincoln did, after all, sign the Emancipation Proclamation). Privatization? Absolutely. Robots? Isn't that what you get when you hand out tenure?

sbbuilder

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 10:59 a.m.

Finally, when the teachers' backs are to the wall, and they will possibly feel the pinch too, like everyone else, they authorize 'crisis activities'. Why the tip-toeing when everyone knows this is a STRIKE? Let's see: kids, money, kids, money, kids, money. Decisions decisions. It looks like the choice will be money.

sbbuilder

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 10:25 p.m.

HJK I have had my own business for the past seventeen years. Consequently, I have a very good grasp of where every dollar goes. Total compensation = Pay + bennies. Your contention that they get paid beans is silly, and you don't even mention benefits. No, teachers are compensated quite nicely, thank you.

HJK

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 6:52 p.m.

Teaching is a job! Not volunteer work. They get paid beans as it is. Your argument is pointless. Where do you work? I would love to tell your boss that you don't care about the money, but the work itself.

Lisa

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 4:49 p.m.

Teachers have given up a substantial amount. Some more than others. I suspect that you won't be appeased until salaries are so low that teachers with children are forced to apply for welfare because they can't afford to work with daycare costs. On the other hand, we've cut taxes again and again while cutting school funding again and again. This business tax cut is coming directly out of school programs. But somehow the teachers are greedy and selfish?

David Briegel

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 4:36 p.m.

It's either their money or yours. We know what selfish means! To heck with teachers and kids!!

Mich Res and Alum

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 11:03 a.m.

It's not like the MEA is doing this to get increases in wages - they are doing it because Snyder is trying to cut funding by ridiculous amounts! The teachers are trying to stand up for EVERYONE'S children! If you have a kid in public education you should be just as outraged and engaged in this issue as they are.

Cash

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 10:59 a.m.

The puppet masters begin their corporate sponsored tv and radio ads next week...pushing the corporate agenda put forth by Snyder. If we want our vote to ever count again we'd better step up and support Michigan workers.....when they lose the middle class loses.

birch creek john

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 10:41 a.m.

I hope that everyone will read Brit Satchwell's letter. It is well written, and outlines the issues as well as I've seen done.

Macabre Sunset

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 10:36 a.m.

Nice. The most compensated teachers in the country are planning a strike. It's all about the children, isn't it?

Macabre Sunset

Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 3:54 a.m.

According to the Mackinac Center for Public Policy: <a href="http://www.mackinac.org/12781" rel='nofollow'>http://www.mackinac.org/12781</a> Maryland has slightly higher pay, but fewer benefits (hence the use of compensation rather than salary - I realize teachers rarely have any grounding in economics, but I include the terms for the benefit of others). It also has a far greater cost of living. Michigan is, without a doubt, the best state for employed teachers. The problem, though, is we are losing population and unions force the schools to fire the youngest and brightest first. As for the straw-man from HJK, no, I am neither Republican nor conservative. If you bothered to actually read more than my comments about public unions, you'd know that. Teachers are nowhere near as well educated as doctors and lawyers. I dated someone back in my Michigan days who was in the ed school, and the work they were giving her was so basic we could nothing other than laugh at it. Math for teachers, which is considered a "hard" course, is little more than an Algebra primer. So, no, I would not encourage my son to be a teacher (though if that's what he wants, I won't try and stop him). I think my son is capable of far more, though it is frustrating dealing with the social engineering crap they get every day instead of real instruction. If all these EU countries are so wonderful, maybe immigration is open there and people who feel public unions are the be-all and end-all can move. Oh, but immigration is far more restrictive, and the countries that have made all these promises of golden pensions and benefits are going bankrupt. Like we will if we don't enact reform now.

antikvetch

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 7:43 p.m.

"Doctors and attorneys" are paid based on fees they generate. Teachers are paid by taxes compelled by the state. Apples and oranges....

Adam S.

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 7:15 p.m.

Actually, my annual teacher salary here is about 10K less than I would be making if I had stayed in Montgomery County, Maryland.

HJK

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 6:36 p.m.

@ Macabre, it is obvious from ALL your comments that you are a Republican conservative and it is predictable on what you are going to say. Michigan teachers are NOT the most compensated in the country, please get your facts right or you will continue sounding like Beck. My argument to you is that teachers are well educated professionals. In many EU countries, teachers are revered lik doctors and attorneys. This may explain why their education system is better. Lower those wages and you will have the same pool of teacher that this country had 100 years ago: Women fresh out of college waiting to get married and men that were kicked in the head by a horse. You will have people that graduated from college and couldn't get a job doing anything else. Why would you want to pay a teacher less money than an engineer? They have the same education and specialized degree. 30 years ago, teachers use to encourage their good students to be teachers. I highly doubt that happens anymore. I would NEVER encourage my children to be teachers. They are under appreciated and under paid for the job responsibly. So Marcabre, would you encourage your child to be a teacher and be willing to send them to U of M for 4-5 years to get their degree and certification? Teachers jobs are JUST as important as doctors and attorneys. They are educating our youth and in the position to make this world a better place.

Joker Man

Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 3:44 p.m.

The most compensated teachers in the country...according to you?