maallen

Fri, Nov 5, 2010 : 4:23 p.m.

@tru2blu76 "1. It was the Reagan Administration Republicans who pass the measure allowing the use of Social Security funds for "other purposes" It happened in 1967, and Dingell supported it. Last time I checked, Reagan wasn't the President then, but then again, maybe tru2blu76's revisionist of history maybe Reagan was? For the time being, I will stick with Lyndon B Johnson as being the President in 1967. And allowing the Social Security to be used in other programs, general fund, happened in 1967. And good ol' Dingell supported it! Yet, he says he wants to protect social security, but to this day he refuses to put social security into it's own seperate fund so that the government doesn't have access to spend it on all these other programs. That is why I have kept saying his words don't match his actions. The liberals really need to start doing their homework and stop listening to these politicians slick words and phrases. Let's just hope the people who were elected and re-elected actually listen to the voters. It is ever so important not to keep re-electing those that keep failing us.

American Family

Thu, Nov 4, 2010 : 12:52 p.m.

@Tru2Blu76:...they'll join the matured ranks of critical thinkers and won't be wasting their time blowing such brand-loyalty winds." Remember this. "Matured ranks of critical thinkers" are for something, or against everything. They do not just blow in the wind and hope. I am for America, and her way of life. Most Liberals today just want to dismantle her. Well, they'll have to come through me first to do that. And I am not alone comrade. :) Lotssssss of RED in the states, on the map two days ago........ Very little BLUE. Wonder what that means???!

Roadman

Thu, Nov 4, 2010 : 12:34 p.m.

God bless Michigan and Governor-Elect Rick Snyder. We need his leadership and intelligence.

American Family

Thu, Nov 4, 2010 : 12:23 p.m.

@Dan H: What you said was very well put. And almost correct (99%) :) The US Constitution and The Bill of Rights can be changed. While I think it need not be changed at this time, there have been times in our countries past, where the super majority of the States (The People) felt there needed to be something added or voided. Thats where the Amendments come in with The Bill of Rights. Many people today under the age of 35 have no real idea what the US Constitution and The Bill of Rights say or mean. It is not really taught in our Public Schools any more for some sad reason. You learned, and your mom and dad made sure you did. I am second generation American. ALL of my grand-parents came from the "old countries." They left for a reason. Freedom to be themselves and the true ability to strive for personal and financial improvement for themselves and their decedents. My spouse is a Naturalized American. My spouse (from Japan) choose to become an American. While we are personally very proud of our forefathers and their countries overall accomplishments in history; we hold no allegiance to them at all. And my spouse thinks the same. But we do not call ourselves something dash Americans; we are only Americans. For example; we do not celebrate other countries holidays, it is not our countries holiday. I think you are very well educated, and I hope others listen to you and learn. God Bless America. ( did you hear a liberal pop on that last piece??)

Dan H

Thu, Nov 4, 2010 : 10:10 a.m.

American Family, I don't agree with everything you say, and that's OK because I almost never agree with everything someone says...nor do they with me. However, I can tell you're the kind of guy I respect: good and decent and full of commonsense. However, one thing I did want to point out is about your comments that most Americans don't agree with Obama...and then you mention that they can try to change The American way if they want, even if you believe they will fail. I would disagree with that. As a fellow admirer of much of what the Founding Fathers gave us, it's very clear they wrote the bill of rights and the constitution the way they did. There were certain things that were not supposed to be changed, although unfortunately they have been. This is why Democrats, especially those who never bothered to read a bit of history, are dead wrong when they call America a democracy. Al Gore used that line constantly in his presidential debates against Bush (I voted for neither of them), but just pointing this out. He kept harping on about preserving our democracy. It's interesting to me that he chose to use those words, and of course, most liberals eat it up unquestioningly. However, as you know, we are a constitutional republic, NOT a democracy. We do not live in a country where the majority rule on something should become law. Let's take me as an example. I'm Asian. Born in the US, but first generation Chinese American. If 51% of the population tomorrow believed all Asians should be shot on site, should that be allowable? If we were a "democracy," then if 51% says something, that's the way it should be. Of course, our Founding Fathers realized this. That's why we have a constitution and a bill of rights. A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine. - Thomas Jefferson A couple of excerpts from an article that I think helps illustrate some of the fundamental differences. People should read some history for themselves and make up their own minds: "A constitutional republic is a state where the head of state and other officials are elected as representatives of the people and must govern according to existing constitutional law that limits the government's power over citizens. Unlike a pure democracy, in a constitutional republic, citizens are not governed by the majority of the people but by the rule of law. The original framers of the United States Constitution were notably cognizant of what they perceived as a danger of majority rule in oppressing freedom and liberty of the individual. For example, James Madison, in Federalist Paper No. 10, advocates a constitutional republic over a democracy to protect the individual from the majority. The framers carefully created the institutions within the Constitution and the United States Bill of Rights. They kept what they believed were the best elements of majority rule. But they were mitigated by a constitution with protections for individual liberty, a separation of powers."

American Family

Thu, Nov 4, 2010 : 9:05 a.m.

@Tru2Blu76: "What did Reagan have right? " He said that America is the one, last, and only hope for TRUE Freedom left in the world, and that we are a beacon of Freedom for those who crave it and can not find it in their own countries. Was his speech sort of "starry eyed"? Sure, but in its core it is true. I have lived in England and Germany (West), and Canada. I stood for a while in France and Spain. I know very personally people from various countries in Eastern Europe, South America and various Middle East counties. My friends and acquaintances from those places all tell me that only in America have they found the Freedom to be themselves and the true ability to strive for personal and financial improvement for themselves and their children. I do not buy in to what ANY political party has to say. Prove it to me I say. But I see the Democrats moving fast towards Socialism. And Full speed ahead under Obama. Nope, his way and leadership, and his followers are wrong to me and to MOST Americans. In the Ann Arbor area there many Liberals. Most Liberals like some form of Socialism. Most Conservatives do not. Only in America can polar opposites live together in peace. Look around the world. Riots, killing, fire, and the like are going on by polar opposites. Our American way allows very different people to live together in peace. Washington and the Founding Fathers set it up that way. Reagan agreed, and so do I. If people that so much hate the traditional American way of life want to change America, I say try. It is the American way. But after you fail, and you will; leave or settle down and blend in and become part of America, not a thorn in it's buttocks.

Dan H

Thu, Nov 4, 2010 : 8:47 a.m.

For people out there, not True, since he's blinded, I'd like to edify a bit on how social security works. For some reason, people think we can keep paying for bigger and bigger government and the more we delude ourselves, the more painful it's going to be when everything crashes. Social Security, like all ponzi schemes, pays out people from fresh money coming in. So consider that when it started, there were people who literally got a lot more money out of it than they ever paid into it. Just like any good ponzi scheme, the people who get in early can benefit. Also, consider that the social security administration itself is a HUGE, bloated government organization that has to employ a great many people to oversee the operation. The financial ramifications of that is a dollar into the SS system isn't a dollar out. I don't know how much of the money that is paid into the system is actually sucked up by the SS administration and its employees itself, but I'm sure it's not insignificant. Finally, consider that there is no "lock box" for the money. I still remember the presidential debates between Al Gore and George Bush and Al Gore kept referring to the "Social Security Lock Box," which is funny if the issue wasn't so serious. Why funny? Because there is no lock box. Gore was implying that the money that's coming in is being tucked safely away for posterity and being used to pay out current recipients. That's a joke. In reality, the money that went to fund social security is used by the Government as part of its general expenditures. Which is a highly corrupting influence. This means that money can be used to pay for other social programs, wars, whatever. I use these two examples here because democrats tend to like social programs but don't like wars; whereas many republicans think wars are OK but don't like social programs. So this should bother both sides. So, the bottom line is: the money is effectively gone. Why does it continue? Well, of course, there are working people and self employed entrepreneurs like me who pay the tax as part of our self employment tax (15.3%). This keeps it going for a while, just like Bernie Madoff's scam kept going on for years and years. But people like me will NEVER EVER see a penny of that money back. Because the whole ponzi scheme is going to unravel well before then. That's why social security and medicare are sometimes referred to as "unfunded liabilities." The funds to actually pay for these things don't exist. They've already been spent by our reckless government. So, just remember all of this when you hear people like Tru claim that social security and medicare actually work just fine. Just like Bernie Madoff's ponzi scheme did too. Only difference is none of us have a choice to join in on this ponzi scheme (unless you are Amish, in which case you're not reading this anyway). Now, I am not passing a moral argument here. The monster has been created and it's going to end terribly. I'm not saying current recipients should be stiffed or something like that. That wouldn't be fair if they have been paying into the thing their entire lives. But SOMEBODY--A LOT of somebodies--ARE going to get stiffed. That's a fact. If this is what people like Tru says "works" then I'd hate to see what he says is an example of a program that doesn't work.

Dan H

Thu, Nov 4, 2010 : 8:33 a.m.

Tru, Wow, your examples are terribly flawed. Social Security works...until it doesn't. Just like Bernie Madoff's Ponzi scheme worked until it didn't. As long as there's more money coming into the system, it works. Social Security is a ponzi scheme mathematically. This is why you are naive. Even honest politicians wouldn't solve our problems because honesty doesn't mean you actually know what's right or wrong. It just means your honest. And even asking for a bunch of honest politicians is incredibly naive in and of itself. One day when the whole house of cards comes crashing down, the ponzi scheme of social security, medicare, all of it, then we'll get to see "see, we're right." Not that I will enjoy that, because our society is going to disintegrate for a while. I can't believe any serious person can try to argue that social security "works." Bernie Madoff's ponzi scheme would still be going today if the crises of 2008 didn't happen and he wasn't hit with redemptions. The only difference is with social security, we can't "redeem" anything. So it will keep going until it crashes.

Ray D. Aider

Thu, Nov 4, 2010 : 2:18 a.m.

If find the entire discussion about the "smart" voters of A2 amusing. I have not seen the word "wisdom" used. I dare say that many in A2 are "smarter" than Confucius, however.... There are a lot of smart people who get themselves so far in debt that they cannot pay for their mistakes....lucky for them, they are 'smart' enough to know that they can declare bankruptcy. It still doesn't equate with wisdom. It's not 'smart' to get in debt. (Why do I suddenly think of the name Bernie Madoff? No dummy there, agreed? A GREED!) There are a lot of smart people who get married, but not wise enough to know how to stay married. I'll take wisdom over smarts any day. Once when I was showing off my smarts a few decades ago, a wise man said to me, "It's what you learn after you know everything...that counts". To equate intelligence and education with wisdom....is, forgive me, foolish.....so get over yourself. Grasshopper.

magnumpi

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 10:53 p.m.

@ Andrew, i agree with your views on straight ticket voting. out of curiousity, did you split ticket vote for the presidential election?

David Briegel

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 10:44 p.m.

America is just like the woman who keeps on going back to her abusive partner because he promises that things will be better this time. But they never are!

American Family

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 10:44 p.m.

@Andrew MacKie-Mason: I fully believe in our America. Our way of life. Our traditions. We as a people are not perfect. We have done, or allowed bad things to happen in our history. But the American people over all are a noble people. We try to do the right thing. We correct mistakes, we make them. I have lived in other countries. None as grand as America. Reagan and Washington had it right. I do not agree, and never will agree with ANY form of Socialism. Liberals have been empowered of late to an extreme by the current President, but in the end Traditional American beliefs have, and will prevail. I really chuckled when you said " I'm not complaining about America: you're the one who seems to be." Really? LOL I agree with the right to open debate. So debate. You saw how the extreme "Left", well left, or will leave after "We the People" have had enough of the Socialism experiment. Socialism is just not American.

American Family

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 10:28 p.m.

@Andrew MacKie-Mason: I fully believe in our America. Our way of life. Our traditions. We as a people are not perfect. We have done, or allowed bad things to happen in our history. But the American people over all are a noble people. We try to do the right thing. We correct mistakes, we make them. I have lived in other countries. None as grand as America. Reagan and Washington had it right. I do not agree, and never will agree with ANY form of Socialism. Liberals have been empowered of late to an extreme by the current President, but in the end Traditional American beliefs have, and will prevail. I really chuckled when you said " I'm not complaining about America: you're the one who seems to be." Really? LOL I agree with the right to open debate. So debate. You saw how the extreme "Left", well left, or will leave after "We the People" have had enough of the Socialism experiment. Socialism is just not American.

Andrew MacKie-Mason

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 9:55 p.m.

@American Family: Yes. @American Family: "True, but show me a better place for it and the average person to flourish then what the Founding Fathers set up for us 221 years ago. And no, Socialism in any form was not on the table at all then." Well, considering that the average person was enslaved, either in chattel slavery or political slavery, I think what we have now allows the average person to flourish much better than what the Founding Fathers set up. @American Family: "You both seen to dislike the American way of traditional government and way of life. So leave to a place you might like better. China, Cuba, Venezuela, even Canada to a much lesser extent. And don't let the door hit your buttocks on the way out." The American form of government is meant and designed to be one that allows for change and evolution. I'm not complaining about America: you're the one who seems to be.

ViSHa

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 9:53 p.m.

"As for the message of the tough nerd, his only message was that he was different and we should trust him" LOL, where have i heard that before?

American Family

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 9:50 p.m.

@Andrew MacKie-Mason: Yes I can. Can you? @Speechless: "Capitalism itself has no inherent requirement for democratic institutions" True, but show me a better place for it and the average person to flourish then what the Founding Fathers set up for us 221 years ago. And no, Socialism in any form was not on the table at all then. You both seen to dislike the American way of traditional government and way of life. So leave to a place you might like better. China, Cuba, Venezuela, even Canada to a much lesser extent. And don't let the door hit your buttocks on the way out.

Andrew MacKie-Mason

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 9:47 p.m.

@rulieg: "this know-it-all arrogance, I'm sad to say, has always been a hallmark of my hometown. why do you think people around the country love to see U-M lose so much? it takes us down a peg." I find it amusing that sports would ever take anyone down a peg. As to the rest of what you were saying: it's a nice story, but it's simply not what we're actually arguing. You've constructed a nice strawman, though. Government needs to be there in the many cases where the free market can't create the opportunities necessary for personal responsibility to matter. Conservatives seem to think that anyone who isn't as rich as them just wasn't trying hard enough. But conservatives don't even seem to recognize all the things they use every day that wouldn't exist without government.

Andrew MacKie-Mason

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 9:33 p.m.

@rulieg: "this know-it-all arrogance, I'm sad to say, has always been a hallmark of my hometown. why do you think people around the country love to see U-M lose so much? it takes us down a peg." I find it amusing that sports would ever take anyone down a peg. As to the rest of what you were saying: it's a nice story, but it's simply not what we're actually arguing. You've constructed a nice strawman, though. Government needs to be there in the many cases where the free market can't create the opportunities necessary for personal responsibility to matter. Conservatives seem to think that anyone who isn't as rich as them just wasn't trying hard enough. But conservatives don't even seem to recognize all the things they use every day that wouldn't exist without government.

rulieg

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 9:28 p.m.

Monica and Andrew and leaguebus and the other lefties on here are spinning the same old nonsense. "How are the illiterate people in Detroit going to get jobs? Is it their fault that they are illiterate?" well, yes, leaguebus, to a great extent it IS their fault. this election was about personal responsibility. that's something the statists don't get. and liberals seem to think that everybody but them is a complete moron. black people and other minorities must be nanny-stated from cradle to grave, given food stamps and Section 8 housing vouchers, enslaved once again but this time by the federal government. conservatives on the other hand are stupid in a different way. they--for some weird reason--don't understand or appreciate the amazingly wonderful wonders President Obama has done for the country. even after yesterday's landslide GOP victory, they still believe that we will really really like healthcare if we just give it a chance. this know-it-all arrogance, I'm sad to say, has always been a hallmark of my hometown. why do you think people around the country love to see U-M lose so much? it takes us down a peg. fellow reasonable people: I don't think we're ever going to be able to change the political leanings of our beloved Ann Arbor. but we don't have to listen to liberal horse puckey without responding!

Dan H

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 8:43 p.m.

By the way, I am not interested in people who espouse free market ideals but then do the opposite or the contrary. Bush talked about the free market and constantly intervened. It's his actions, not rhetoric, by which I judge him. I even heard Obama say on CNBC once : "Let me be clear, I am a strong advocate of the free market." I also choked when he said that. The military/industrial complex can talk about free trade, but it isn't. Wall Street loves to talk about free markets and free trade until they demand a huge bailout from their buddies over at the Federal Reserve. That's totally different than free trade itself. Again, I don't care what you personally want to believe. You can choose whatever system strikes your fancy. But none of the examples that I've cited about are free trade. Notice that the crux of the problem is the government. If Wall Street wants a bail out, it takes government complicity to make it happen. If one private business wants a regulation that favors it over another, it takes government action or complicity to make that happen.

Dan H

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 8:35 p.m.

The free market is the best system possible. There is nothing delusional about it. There has never been a truly free market. Any objective thinking and study of economic history shows free trade is what generates prosperity. I really don't care to argue this point with you. You can conclude what you want. I think it's pure delusion that you would think otherwise. The alternative is a mixed economy or command control. You can pick your poison as you see fit.

Dan H

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 8:32 p.m.

True, No offense, but you are living in a dream world that is naive. We certainly could go back to a gold standard. Of course, we probably won't, but we could. The Founding Fathers were not omniscient, but they could see a lot of what would happen which is exactly why they wrote the constitution. Which is why we had gold backed money. Your notion that all we need are honest politicians is incredibly naive. The founding fathers had studied currency debasement in previous civilizations. The roman empire for example debased/diluted their currency to pay for expensive wars that eventually led to their demise. The Founding Fathers were aware of this. Their study of history taught them that unless their was a way to keep politicians honest, they would naturally become dishonest. Which is why we have the corrupt system we have today. So excuse me if I find it incredibly naive on your part to think although the gold standard is history that we can't re-implement one....and that we just need more honest politicians. No, what we need are safeguards in place that FORCE politicians to be honest. The gold standard was one such example. In any event, I don't expect a return to a gold standard in the near future so in m view, we're on a crash course to currency destruction and endless government boondoggles till it all comes crashing down. You can wait for your honest politicians to ride en masse into office. We disagree strongly on the notion that the Founding Fathers couldn't see a lot of what would happen.

David Briegel

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 8:02 p.m.

Don't you mean "lame stream" America? Good night to be oblivious to what lies ahead. Wait till Slick Rick shows you his budget. 3 billion to make up and where do you geniuses think he will find 3 billion? From the Aqua Budha? Stephen Landes, nice rhetoric, but you didn't say much just like Rick hasn't said much. 3 billion? From Where? Alan Goldsmith, As usual you are on target. Wait till his majesty has to deal with the fringe in his own party. For all who complain about the class warfare while continuing to throw more and more at the clear victors, your logic escapes me! YOU crunch ANY numbers you wish from the last 30 years and explain the redistribution of wealth that has occurred and how the lower and middle classe have benefitted? And then keep voting for more of the same trickle down mythology! Sheer fantasy! Rape, pillage and plunder! As for the message of the tough nerd, his only message was that he was different and we should trust him. We will see how that works out. He consistently behaved as though all he had to do was to show up. And frankly, that is all he did! Ed, I wish you were here more frequently as there are some that are way too fast with the delete/moderation nonsense. Half of what is on this thread might normally be gone!

John Q

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 7:49 p.m.

"And don't forget it was Granholm standing in the door of a failed Detroit school when the administrators were robbing the DPS blind and that wealthy construction business guy from Plymouth was rebuffed in giving Detroit a good school." Quite a bit of the robbing was done under the Engler-appointed school board the last time the state took control of the schools. But don't let the facts get in the way of your talking points.

Dan H

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 7:46 p.m.

TrueBlue, Nixon was a disgrace. I am not a republican. Voting for Rick was the first time in my life I ever voted Republican. I've never voted Democrat, however. FDR was a disaster who prolonged the Great Depression. He also confiscated the gold of private Citizens. The US was still on a semblance of a Gold standard due to the Bretton Woods agreement of I believe 1944 (or perhaps it was 1945). That made the US dollar the reserve currency of the world and it was negotiated because we promised other nations that they could exchange their foreign reserves for gold if they wished, to bolster confidence. Then Nixon severed the last connection to Gold as you note in 1971. We have paid the price ever since. This has allowed deficits to spiral out of control, the purchasing power of the dollar to plunge relentlessly over the decades, and will ultimately bring on a world of hurt for the US in the not too distant future when we lose world reserve currency status. So, yes, status quo Republicans can be JUST AS BAD as Democrats, which is why I don't vote for them. Rick, on the other hand, has never been a politician and immensely successful in the private sector. Armchair wannabe liberal economists on these threads who know how much taxes businesses can pay, how they should be regulated, how prosperity is generated are a joke. If they actually got into the free market and built businesses, they'd see just how difficult it is. They'd also get to contribute a lot in taxes, too, rather than just demand other hardworking entrepreneurs who put themselves on the line daily do.

Dan H

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 7:40 p.m.

Andrew, Capitalism is free trade. We are based on life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness. I know it may be difficult for the liberal mind to contemplate what liberty implies...but free trade, the pursuit of one's own interests are a couple of examples. Capitalism, true free markets, are the economic system supportive of that. Liberalism, which is underpinned by the belief that someone has the rights to the fruits of someone else's labor, is antithetical to liberty. Therefore, socialism is as well, which is the doctrine liberals adore. "Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations entangling alliances with none." ~ Thomas Jefferson I'm sure you'll spin this in some liberalized way, and go for it. Anyone with common sense will see that liberty and commerce are diametrically opposed to the liberal credo.

Dan H

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 7:34 p.m.

Speechless, Nobody said the Founding Fathers were perfect. But they were highly intelligent, well read men. They studied philosophy, political science, they were men of the Englightenment philosophy that did so much to push human kind forward. When you actually study what they did, the government they crafted -- a constitutional REPUBLIC -- NOT a democracy, it's all the more amazing. The fact that they risked their own lives in signing the declaration shows their heroism for their beliefs. Slavery was a blot and I knew a liberal sooner or later would trot that out as an example. However, let it be known that the slave trade is STILL alive and well in Africa to this day. So why don't you spend time criticizing them rather than trying to criticize the Founding Fathers who weren't "perfect." I'm sure you're perfect too.

Andrew MacKie-Mason

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 7:12 p.m.

@American Family: "New age Democrats (not the old time Democrats of the 1960's and back) & Liberals & Hippies & Progressives & Communists & Socialists & Marxist need to understand that our founding fathers gave us, a Capitalist styled Representative Republic. They did not give us some version of Socialism. This is sending the current White House administration a message that we do not want any form of socialism. The very large majority of Americans, and Michiganders are not Communists or Liberals or Hippies or Progressives or Communists or Socialists or Marxist. This is a Representative Republic, based in Capitalism. If you don't like the United States, or Michigan leave and go to Cuba or Canada. It is just a few minutes away, and you can live in Socialists heaven and be happy forever more. Need help packing?" Out of curiosity, can you explain the differences between Democrats, Liberals, Hippies, Progressives, Communists, Socialists, and Marxists? Or do you actually think those are synonyms? And, where in any legal founding document does it guarantee capitalism in any way?

Andrew MacKie-Mason

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 7:05 p.m.

@EyeHeart: "Fair enough with respect to your position. However, if you look at Monica (whom you came to defend), her position basically boils down to: People in Washtenaw County are the smartest in Michigan People in Washtenaw County voted Democrat (or didn't fall for the Republican to be more accurate) Therefore we are right and the rest of the world is wrong. (plus we are the smarest, just ask me) Then went on to "prove" this by a bunch of jibber jabber that seems more appropriate for a chamber of commerce brochure than a discussion on intelligence." Without trying to put words in Monica's mouth, it seems like the core of her argument was this: Snyder's message was designed to appeal to something other than intelligence, and Washtenaw County fell for it less than other parts of Michigan, therefore Washtenaw County is smarter than Michigan. You can dispute the assumptions there, but it's neither an illegitimate nor arrogant argument, really.

Speechless

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 6:57 p.m.

"... Democrats... & Liberals & Hippies & Progressives & Communists & Socialists & Marxist need to understand that our founding fathers gave us a Capitalist styled Representative Republic...." They also bequeathed us a large and complex system of human slavery. They additionally chose to deny the right to vote to 51% of the non-slave, adult population purely for reasons of gender. Initially, they did not even allow many of the "proper" gender access to the ballot box due to not owning land. Also, tribes native to America were subject to ethnic cleansing. It's not especially wise to hold up the 'founding fathers' as golden idols to be worshipped. (And where are our founding 'mothers' of invention?) Various aspects of their legacy are best abandoned and subsequently remembered for the lessons they provide in mistreatment, discrimination and social error. The Declaration of independence, Common Sense, the Bill of Rights, and other early documents and practices offer a starting point to build upon. Our national history after the 1780s includes many organized grassroots efforts, some successful, to expand democracy and equal treatment under the law within both the public sphere as well as in the 'private' economy. Citizen activists understood the arbitrarily limited nature of the American experiment in democracy, and have long sought to rectify its considerable inadequacies. Capitalism itself has no inherent requirement for democratic institutions, since corporatism can thrive under a military junta or strongman dictatorship. Captains of industry not infrequently prefer the "stability" of brutal, autocratic regimes, hence the strong business support in the past for a Mussolini or a Pinochet. Today, a non-democratic China is fast becoming the leading capitalist economy on the planet, something which governor-elect Snyder tacitly acknowledges through his profitable business dealings over there.

Andrew MacKie-Mason

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 6:53 p.m.

@Tru2Blu76: "My point was / is: there isn't a sizable portion of voters who are "stupid." No -voters are deceived by party propaganda from both (actually all) political parties into believing there are "two opposing sides." It's just not so." I'd say that the number of straight-ticket voters belies that a bit. Maybe not entirely (there are people who research everything and then agree only with one side's candidates), but the fact that so many people vote straight ticket implies that they're voting for parties, not candidates.

Andrew MacKie-Mason

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 6:50 p.m.

@Ram: ""Opportunity is a nice myth" What does that even mean?! Every post of yours so far has been some snide remark, asking people to "provide evidence for... broad claims". Yet you throw out the generalization "Opportunity is a nice myth" with the great evidence of "I live in the real world"." I'm not getting "snide" when people don't give reasons, I'm getting snide when I ask for reasons repeatedly and they just keep on going. I didn't justify that specific claim because I thought it would be obvious, but now that I know it wasn't I'll elaborate. The American myth of opportunity is that we can create a system where everyone has an equal opportunity to succeed and then have no further government involvement. The fact of the matter is, any remotely capitalist system creates inequality which is then passed down through the family system. It's like with education and affirmative action. Some people say "just make education equal from the beginning." But that's impossible. And getting close probably involves some sort of affirmative action (i.e. Getting low income people an education so they can help their children). And equality of opportunity is important, not just some baseline "opportunity". While economics isn't zero-sum, it is relative. Does that explain it any better? I'm on my phone now, but I can write more when I'm back on my computer.

Monica R-W

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 6:11 p.m.

@EyeHeartA2 Where do you live again? You tag suggest that would be Ann Arbor.... "Low unemployment = intelligence? Anyway, the arrogance meter seems to be pegged today." Yes, indeed....why is Washtenaw County and Ann Arbor (you seem to forget in your replies, as I continue to denote both areas with my posts...i.e. 1 + 1 = 2) low unemployment rate directly reflects the value of education within this community. Who would have a problem with an educated and employed population? Have a wonderful evening, by the way.

Ram

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 6:05 p.m.

In my opinion, the elephant in the room in regards to Detroit is the War on Drugs. The government has made all these drugs illegal. That means that it is difficult (but not impossible) to get them. This drives up the price, because the supplier undergoes extra risks. So one can sell, and profit from the sale of, these drugs. To sell the drugs, one has to risk going to jail for being in this business. So someone who can make the same amount of money legally won't take it. But someone who does not have a paying job, or who will not have the money to attend college and get a better job someday, will be attracted to the sale of drugs. This is a major factor drawing away students from Detroit schools. On a related note, this is a cause of urban violence. The profit from the drugs goes to the gangs, who buy weapons. They then use the weapons to kill other gangs in the hopes of lowering competition and raising prices. Libertarian Party Libertarian Party Libertarian Party

Ram

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 5:55 p.m.

Andrew: "Opportunity is a nice myth" What does that even mean?! Every post of yours so far has been some snide remark, asking people to "provide evidence for... broad claims". Yet you throw out the generalization "Opportunity is a nice myth" with the great evidence of "I live in the real world".

Jay Thomas

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 4:50 p.m.

@Monica: It is grossly unfair to say that Detroit has not been supported since Coleman Young took office in 1967. It's actually the opposite: it has been nothing BUT supported since that time. The education and other funding laws were changed to include the sales tax and without state and federal money generated and transferred from outside its borders Detroit would simply not have any schools (look at the value of Detroit real estate to see how pitiful its funding would be). Before that time Detroit actually paid its own bills and was the job capital of the state. Today Detroiters cannot find even minimum wage work without traveling elsewhere. Under Mayor Young Detroit raised taxes 17/20 years and went from below average to a high tax city with the worst crime problem in the nation. Only a few companies have any desire to invest there as a result. Democrats have also been in charge of our state quite a few times since then... while at no time have Republicans run anything in the city (will someone PLEASE take some responsibility... or is EVERYTHING always the fault of evil conservatives, even if they do not control any of the relevant political offices?) On a note of agreement, I also think Archer was a good Mayor, simply because he tried to be a uniter and did not attack suburbanites constantly (and Bing is telling it like it is... but he got there too late).

cinnabar7071

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 4:42 p.m.

@ leaguebus do you think John Conyers can fix this?

leaguebus

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 4:38 p.m.

How are the illiterate people in Detroit going to get jobs? Is it their fault that they are illiterate? The Detroit Schools are broken, is it the people that live in Detroit that are to blame? Or are they the victims of broken schools? If we drop all aid to the jobless in Detroit, what are the jobless going to do? Cutting taxes more will at some point cut the aid to these people. Should they go hungry? Should the innocent children of these illiterate people without jobs suffer hunger because their parents cannot get jobs or aid? Government in a civilized country has to deal with things like this. Call it Socialism if you must, but we cannot allow these people to be hungry. WE need to fix their broken schools. We need to make help them become literate. That takes money and programs that work.

Jay Thomas

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 4:36 p.m.

The info posted by Ed on Detroit illiteracy is eight years out of date (from 2002 with a 10% unemployment rate listed for Detroit back when Granholm was running for the first time -- it is estimated at 50% at the end of her reign). I couldn't find anything more current either because google is becoming less accurate all the time. I do remember articles in the Detroit papers over the past year quoting figures just OVER 50% however. Only 25% of DPS students graduate. Very few students graduate from Wayne State either. On a recent math test Detroit came in worst for the nation (at 25% -- no better than guessing). Many people in key positions related to Detroit education have been found to be illiterate or semi-literate at best. Detroit spends more (and is building more new schools) than the suburbs and yet Detroiters now send 1/3 of their children to suburban schools (that often have less money, older buildings, etc). Throwing more money at it won't fix it either (it hasn't for Washington D.C. the most expensive in the country). And don't forget it was Granholm standing in the door of a failed Detroit school when the administrators were robbing the DPS blind and that wealthy construction business guy from Plymouth was rebuffed in giving Detroit a good school.

Andrew MacKie-Mason

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 4:28 p.m.

@Dan H: "Detroit has voted democratic (liberal for 40+ years). I contend that's an illustration that what is going on there now is a result of liberalism. Now, cite something that shows me it's the result of Republican rule." First of all, who says that it has to be related to either Democrats or Republicans? The government actually is not the cause of everything. The free market could pretty easily play a role (other things necessary for survival in the short term are economically preferred to things like education, which only have long-term benefits, when a group of people are extremely poor.) And if we have to find some governmental cause, Detroit (especially educationally, but also economically) is also influenced by state and national politics, both of which have been Republican for significant amounts of that time. @Dan H: "And as far as your gold and silver claim being false, your argument is totally laughable. Thomas Jefferson warned SPECIFICALLY against a Central Bank. Alexander Hamilton warned SPECIFICALLY against currency debasement. That's what the Fed does." They may have warned about it, but neither Thomas Jefferson nor Alexander Hamilton have constitutional authority. You claimed that money other than gold or silver is unconstitutional, which is just patently false. It's not in the Constitution. If it is, I challenge you to show me where. @Dan H: "For anyone who wants to educate themselves on currency debasement, read: http://www.constitution.org/uslaw/coinage1792.txt" Yes, that is a link to an old law about the coining of money. And? At one point, we backed our currency up with gold and silver. The section you've quoted is basically an anti-counterfeiting measure. But I think you're mistaking an old law with the Constitution. That, my friend, is a law. This is the Constitution.http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html @Macabre Sunset: "We would all love to provide everything for everyone. Unfortunately, that's not possible. All we can provide is opportunity." Opportunity is a nice myth. So is the American Dream. But I live in the real world. And, by the way, one significant part of the shift was because the GOP tricked older people into thinking they were better on entitlement (Medicare) than Democrats.

Dan H

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 4:06 p.m.

Pay attention to this segment in particular people, just to see how far our government has diverted from its sound origins. Section 19. And be it further enacted, That if any of the gold or silver coins which shall be struck or coined at the said mint shall be debased or made worse as to the proportion of the fine gold or fine silver therein contained, or shall be of less weight or value than the same out to be pursuant to the directions of this act, through the default or with the connivance of any of the officers or persons who shall be employed at the said mint, for the purpose of profit or gain, or otherwise with a fraudulent intent, and if any of the said officers or persons shall embezzle any of the metals which shall at any time be committed to their charge for the purpose of being coined, or any of the coins which shall be struck or coined at the said mint, every such officer or person who shall commit any or either of the said offenses, shall be deemed guilty of felony, and shall suffer death. Once upon a time we had a gold standard that backed our dollar. That meat it was NOT fiat. That meant the government could NOT get reckless and expand the money supply willy nilly to pay for pork, corrupt schemes, arbitrary wars, massive social programs and so forth. That means when the Fed was created unconstitutionally and we were eventually taken off the gold standard, what is going on now is the currency debasement Alexander Hamilton is talking about.

Dan H

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 4:01 p.m.

For anyone who wants to educate themselves on currency debasement, read: http://www.constitution.org/uslaw/coinage1792.txt Or if you're a far left liberal, just take Andrew's word as gospel.

Dan H

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 3:55 p.m.

Andrew, Wow. You will twist anything you can. OK, let's do it this way. Detroit has voted democratic (liberal for 40+ years). I contend that's an illustration that what is going on there now is a result of liberalism. Now, cite something that shows me it's the result of Republican rule. And as far as your gold and silver claim being false, your argument is totally laughable. Thomas Jefferson warned SPECIFICALLY against a Central Bank. Alexander Hamilton warned SPECIFICALLY against currency debasement. That's what the Fed does. It's pure fiat now. You can spin anything the way you want, I really don't care at this point, because I can tell when TSHTF you are going to be one of those people who won't see it coming. Me? I've already protected myself because I know monetary history. You? You can keep trusting the government. I'm certainly not going to try to talk you out of it. You're exactly the type of spin-liberal whose mind I don't care to change. Hopefully the other people here, the ones with active minds, will research this stuff for themselves.

Macabre Sunset

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 3:19 p.m.

Reading the comments here, I'm not sure the Democrats understand why the independents switched sides this year. We would all love to provide everything for everyone. Unfortunately, that's not possible. All we can provide is opportunity. To get there, we have to keep government small. That was the message yesterday. If the Republicans don't get that, then they will be surprised when this wave doesn't continue two years from now. Let's get companies hiring again so people can provide for themselves. This is the land of opportunity, not the land of entitlement.

Andrew MacKie-Mason

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 3:17 p.m.

@Dan H: Ok. I read the AnnArbor.com endorsement, and I don't see anything in there attacking him for his wealth. Can you maybe point to specific passages, unless you're just making it up? @Dan H: "There are tons of clueless remarks from people on the political threads how Rick simply "bought the election" to boot. Meaning, of course, that he only won because he threw enough money around. Implied in the indignation is a resentment of the money itself." I think this quote reveals your true paranoia about the issue. Decrying the influence of money in politics is nowhere near the same thing as decrying wealth in general. I'm not asking you to "waste your time" pointing things out for me. I'm asking you to provide evidence for your broad claims, which is a reasonable thing to expect, I think. You did say that no taxes are good, when you said that tax cuts are always good. If you continue cutting taxes indefinitely, you will end up with no taxes. So, what do you think is the right ending point for tax cuts? @Dan H: "It's still in the constitution that only gold and silver shall be money." That's false, and I would recommend rereading the Constitution. What it actually says is that no state shall make anything but gold and silver into money. It places no such restriction on the federal government. You also still have yet to prove anything about your Detroit claim. So far, it's just assertions without evidence. @EyeHeart: "which makes the original hypothesis that Ann Arbor voters are so vastly more intelligent than the unwashed masses all the more preposterous. Since you really can't measure it. Only a degree from U or M, followed by living in Ann Arbor proves that you are truly intelligent - and then only if you vote Democratic. Some of us downriver hillbillies snuck in and got us some education when it wasn't so hard to git into this here fine lernin' establishment. Came hear mostly 'cause they used to play good football. I shore did like that Bo guy." Just because intelligence can't be measured numerically doesn't mean you can't make reasonable judgments about intelligence. For instance, the conservative that you satirize in your last paragraph, the one who cares more about football then education, tends to be much less intelligent. (By the way, that kind of person does actually exist, scarily enough. Like the woman in the large trailer who spent her Friday evening drinking beer on the Pioneer parking lot and then questioned my right to have the UM logo on my car when I told her I didn't care about football.) I'm not sure why you say "Only a degree from U or M, followed by living in Ann Arbor proves that you are truly intelligent," since that isn't the position that I, or the original person you were talking to, was taking. For one, the only claim I've made, or that I've seen someone else make, has to do with living in Ann Arbor. I've never made a claim about a UM degree, even though you keep trying to frame my position in that way. Nor have I seen anyone say anything about voting Democratic=intelligence. In my experience, there are a lot of very intelligent Republicans in Ann Arbor too. It's a more intellectual town, and that attracts smart people of all ideologies. It's the John McCain and Volokh Conspiracy conservatives, if you will, rather than the George W. Bush and Glenn Beck Republicans. There are many intelligent people all over. A lot of intelligent people are in Ann Arbor, and it tends to attract those who appreciate intellectual discussion and pursuits, of whatever intellectual stripes. If you want to dispute that, feel free. But please stop trying to mischaracterize what I'm saying. @EyeHeart: "Why? Because they vote the way you like?" In my experience (and, as we can see here, obviously there are exceptions) because people in that area tend to discuss and consider things more intelligently. By the way, I'm just as dismayed with the straight-ticket Democratic voters as the straight-ticket Republican voters.

Monica R-W

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 3:05 p.m.

EyeHeart, how about because we are. Feel free to review the thread above and below, for details. If you are having an issue with "understanding" this.... ONE of the lowest level of Unemployment in the state-Washtenaw County The highest level of 4 year degreed residents in the state-Washtenaw County The highest level of residents in the state who graduate from K-12 education-Washtenaw County Lost Pfizer but gained Google second headquarters within two years-Washtenaw County Home to more than One Top level University-Washtenaw County In fact, Washtenaw County has 5 colleges or universities, within its landscape: -University of Michigan- Top 10 School -Eastern Michigan University-Added students by double the last two years -Cleary University (Original housed in Ypsilanti, Michigan....now headquartered in Livingston Country but, with a growing campus in Ann Arbor, Michigan)-Highly Recognized Business College and proud to be a Alumni! Corcordia College-Top Religious Based Higher Learning Educational Institution Washtenaw Community College-Rated within the Top 100 of Community Colleges within the entire Untied States. Proud again, to be Alumni of WCC! Won one of Green Energy Battery Production Plants, in the state-Washtenaw County-Ford Rawsonville Plant Has Two Toyota Research Facilities within its' landscape-One in Superior Township and the other in Milan...by the way, both of these facilities are in what? Washtenaw County Need I say more?

Stephen Landes

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 3:05 p.m.

RE: the discussion on Detroit, education, liberals, and illiteracy. The following is from the US Census Bureau and can be found at http://www2.census.gov/govs/school/08f33pub.pdf Average spending per pupil 2007-2008 school year US National average $10,251 Michigan average $10,069 Ann Arbor average $11,790 Detroit average $12,016 Whatever else is going on in Detroit I doubt it can be said that some nasty "conservative" somewhere is limiting the financial resources available to Detroit Public Schools. Anyone is free to check the report at the above link and see if I made a mistake in identifying or selecting data.

John Q

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 2:52 p.m.

"since the government has been the largest growth industry in the US over the last 24 months, of course the unemployment is low in Lansing and Ann Arbor." Care to back that up with statistics? Government employment has been declining all over the US as people are laid off from schools, local gov't, state gov't, etc. "It is not the local policies that make the unemployment low, it is the government engine that has made unemployment low." What? All conservatives tell me that government doesn't create jobs. Now you're telling me the opposite?

DeeDee

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 2:41 p.m.

Wow, thanks AA.com for bringing us that american spirited quote about "getting the hell out" if you don't happen to believe the speaker's personal view of the Republic or how to interpret the Constitution. It's certainly what made this country great, created our melting pot, and made this a beacon in the world of equal rights and tolerance, etc. Maybe he should move, to say China, or Russia, where he can see what the results of that "if you don't like it " attitude take a society. But, at least he made clear how mean spirited the "republican" agenda really is.

Monica R-W

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 2:35 p.m.

Let's really remember history here folks. Detroit has not been supported since the 1967 riots. Follow that with the election of the city first African-American mayor, the Late Coleman Young. Now, as for Detroit itself, I will agree with one thing. People of the city trend not to vote in their best interests. Kwame was a great example. They had two other great candidates Freedom Hendrix (D) in 2005 and Gil Hill (D) in 2001 and instead, gave Kwame the vote, twice. This was a mistake and an error. In the same aspect, Dennis Archer (D) was a GREAT MAYOR for Detroit. Personally, I wish he would re-consider running again and remove Dave Bing from office. I have yet to see what Bing is doing to improve the city. Moving on back to A2 and Washtenaw County. We do have the smartest voters in Southeastern Michigan. As for what liberals have done....let us remember the eight years of John Engler (R)(crickets...) and the mess he left for Governor Jennifer Granholm (D) to clean up. With what she was handed over, combined with the state of the economy under the last four Bush years, she did the BEST JOB she could do to avoid Michigan from falling completely off the map. She fought for the bailout of the auto industry. She kept social programs (that were needed and necessary with the economic situation of the state) from being destroyed by the state Republicans. In addition, she went to Washington, D.C. to promote our state as the LEADER, to create the next stage of Green energy in electric vehicles and wind energy. She cut, cut, and cut again the prison budget and population to save the deficit of the state, place non-violent offenders out of prisons and back into halfway houses. We cannot grow in this state with the Prison Industrial Complex. It takes up way too much of our tax dollars. Granholm also ownsized the number of State Government employees but, receives little credit for that. Google second headquarters in Ann Arbor is one example or PRIVATE SECTOR JOB CREATION Granholm fought hard for and won. The Movie Industry, is another. The battery plant in Holland is a third. Yes, many more jobs were lost in our state but, it easily could have been much, much worst. Another Granholm creation (now lost) that I think was an example for the nation, was the Michigan's Promise Scholarship. She was willing to cut her signature program, to balance the budget. In addition, she worked with the GOP to try and re-establish the program that help many Michigan middle class families, afford higher education. Hopefully, "nerd" Snyder will find a way to re-enact this needed and necessary program. Now, I am not a Granholm cheerleader. In her first election in 2002, I debated on voting for her. Still, to paint Michigan's problems like it was all her fault and she did nothing about it is WRONG, dead wrong. This is a quick summary of what Governor Granholm did while in office to work, to work behalf residents of Michigan. Now wonder Washtenaw County and Ann Arbor, voted her in twice by majority margins.... Let's see what "nerd" soon-to-be Governor Snyder will do. If he follows the Tea Party and Extreme Conservative line....mark my words, he will be out in 2014....if not recalled, before that.

discgolfgeek

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 2:34 p.m.

I find it ironic that Timothy Kelly used Canada as the example for failed socialism. Canada has a balanced budget, not a 14 trillion dollar deficit, and none of their banks required bailouts during/after the financial meltdown. Their dollar, once worth.70 to our 1.00 is now even with ours and will soon be worth more as our dollar continues to plummet in value against other curencies. And they manage to nationally insure the health of all their residents while running a balanced budget. I agree that their taxes are high but the reality is their country is financially in way better shape than ours.

Dan H

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 2:14 p.m.

Of course I never said no taxes at all is not a good thing. Again, I'm off to the gym. We DO need a government. And what we actually need is a TINY fraction of the bloated, immoral one we have now. The Founding Fathers were highly educated, brilliant men who risked their lives and their personal fortunes to give us the most unique government in the history of the world. That led to our prosperity that is now in its twilight. The rule of law, court systems to arbitrate, contracts, etc., those are all things we need. There is a role for Government. Just not the unconstitutional government the liberals (and sometimes the republicans) want to give us. The constitution is now a dead letter, even though it's still the law of the land. Let me give you one example before I split. It's still in the constitution that only gold and silver shall be money. Alexander Hamilton, the first Treasury Secretary, knew that governments would become reckless if it was allowed to debase the currency. So what is the punishment for currency debasement? Life in prison? No. It's death. They knew it was that serious. The Federal Reserve created in 1913 is unconstitutional. It still exists and we have to deal with it. But what the Fed is doing is debasing the currency. These laws still exist technically. Hopefully some people here, if they do anything at all, will actually take time to read our constitution and try to understand WHY it was written the way it was. I'm not saying the Founding Fathers were perfect or got everything right. But they got A LOT right.

dennisd49

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 2:12 p.m.

Dan I'm slightly left of center and thanks for your comments. It is probably my Catholic School education. I believe that we are all responsible to help where we can and how we can. I usually and consistently vote Democratic since they fit my beliefs more closely but I do watch what has happened in the past. If we don't learn from it we will repeat it and we have. I have seen thousands and thousands lose their jobs while corporations are setting records with their profits. When is it enough to continually make huge profits and mindlessly continue to pursue the bailouts and handouts. I have seen constant attacks on public education without any real solutions to fix it. All I want is for those who profess to be religious ask themselves.....What would Jesus do? After all he did drive the money changers from the temple and forgave the prostitute. Only in this Country can we express ourselves without fear. When all is said and done this Country and this State is worth fighting for. I think we can all agree to that regardless of our opinions of how to do it.

Andrew MacKie-Mason

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 2:08 p.m.

Oh, yeah, and you also forgot to address how you're going to show that Detroit illiteracy is linked to Detroit liberalism. Or are you just going to assert it without evidence?

Dan H

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 2:07 p.m.

Andrew, I'm going to work out. Sorry, I'm not going to waste my time with further rebuttals. If you didn't see all of the comments attacking Rick just for being Rich you apparently haven't visited AnnArbor.com much. Even in the editorial where AnnArbor.com endorsed Rick, they themselves expressed some dismay about how just being rich and successful seems to be a negative mark in and of itself. I suggest going back and reading that endorsement from a week or so ago. There are tons of clueless remarks from people on the political threads how Rick simply "bought the election" to boot. Meaning, of course, that he only won because he threw enough money around. Implied in the indignation is a resentment of the money itself. Forget about the fact that this isn't even correct. If it were, Dick Devos would have clobbered Granholm because he threw a lot more money around than Rick and still lost. Go back and read the political threads for yourself if you want evidence. I'm not wasting my time pointing them out for you. To all the liberty lovers: fight the good fight! America depends on you.

Andrew MacKie-Mason

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 1:59 p.m.

@EyeHeart: Educated is not the same as intelligence. It is more a sign of a privileged upbringing thrown in with some tenacity. Anyway, all those dunderheads that live in Oakland and Macomb county are curious how we ended up with a copy of their IQ test. I'm confused by your comment about IQ tests. Are you saying that they're a better indicator of intelligence than education? And, you misread my comment. I didn't say that university areas attract educated people. I said that they attract intelligent people. Of course, even relatively stupid people can get through a degree. But they're not the type of people who choose to live in a town like Ann Arbor, at least not on average. @Dan H: "However, there's one thing the supply siders got right and that's that tax cuts for the wealthy." Nope. Wealthy people hoard money, they don't spend it. @Dan H: "And, don't make any assumptions about me. Even when I was flat broke, I always believed the economic fruits of someone's labor was theirs and not mine to redistribute. Assuming they made it legitimately." Then don't make assumptions about what assumptions I'm making about you. Where did this even come from? @Dan H: "Notice how liberals, at least the far left ones, resent the rich...just for the sake of being rich. That's all it takes for the resentment to build. Forget about the fact that Rick Snyder was a self made guy who came from nothing. The wealth alone is cause for resentment. Yet, also notice that even know liberals resent the wealth, they know they need it. They are always scheming to redistribute it. If money wasn't important, then I suggest liberals all move to some cashless society without a medium of exchange." I don't know why you assume that liberals resent the rich. I'm pretty far to the left (at least in American terms) and I don't resent the rich. I generally don't subscribe to self-loathing. And there are very few liberals who actually want to get rid of markets. They just think that markets shouldn't determine everything (especially life and death). @Dan H: "All of the endless comments I read from the far left deriding people like Rick who came from nothing and achieved wealth are slammed for it" Can you point me to the comments that attack Snyder for being rich? @Dan H: "Notice how liberals, such as yourself, look at people keeping more of their own money as CREATING the deficit problem when it fact it's the SPENDING that is the problem." Umm, no. Deficits are caused by the combination of low revenue and high expenditure. I'm pretty sure that all liberals know that. It seems you don't, though? @Dan H: "I don't expect you to get any of this, like most liberals don't, which is why I expect liberals to feel the brunt of the pain when the collapse happens." I don't, mostly because your comment was disorganized, lacked a clear thesis or direction, and was not actually a response to anything I said. So, let's bring it back to your original, crazy claim. Do you actually think that no taxes whatsoever would be a good thing? Because that's what you originally said.

Dan H

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 1:52 p.m.

Dennis, I'm not sure if you're a liberal or not. I'm assuming you are left leaning based on your question to me. I get the impression that you are one of the genuinely caring liberals who genuinely wants to make society better. Your question, and I'm not trying to dodge it, entails a huge, detailed response. What you are asking, as I'm sure you must realize, it not a simple thing. I can't rattle off an answer for you, because to do so, we'd have to catalog all of the reasons the collapse of Detroit happened in the first place. But it's good that you care. Hopefully you will continue to do the right things, but not use government force to achieve those ends. That always ends badly.

Dan H

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 1:43 p.m.

Andrew, You commit fallacies like all liberals tend to do. First, let's get a couple of things straight. I am not a supply sider. However, there's one thing the supply siders got right and that's that tax cuts for the wealthy. Bush was a disaster but there's one thing he got right: tax cuts for the so called rich (many of whom aren't rich at all). But rich is a nice label the liberals love to trot out to steal the fruits of other people's labor. When Obama lets the tax cuts for the so-called expire, it's going to hammer the economy. And, don't make any assumptions about me. Even when I was flat broke, I always believed the economic fruits of someone's labor was theirs and not mine to redistribute. Assuming they made it legitimately. I never resented the successful. I thought they should be emulated. Notice how liberals, at least the far left ones, resent the rich...just for the sake of being rich. That's all it takes for the resentment to build. Forget about the fact that Rick Snyder was a self made guy who came from nothing. The wealth alone is cause for resentment. Yet, also notice that even know liberals resent the wealth, they know they need it. They are always scheming to redistribute it. If money wasn't important, then I suggest liberals all move to some cashless society without a medium of exchange. However, we know this will never happen because as Ayn Rand once brilliantly said "Run for your life from any man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter." How right she was. All of the endless comments I read from the far left deriding people like Rick who came from nothing and achieved wealth are slammed for it...but of course they want his money to achieve their own immoral ends. As an aside, notice how liberals will give wealth a pass when it's one of their liberal gods who has it. Who is the richest person in the US senate? Yes, that's right. It's good ole JOHN KERRY, who actually MARRIED into the money. His wife, of the Heinz Ketchup fame, who never earned a penny of it. John Kerry owns a yacht worth 7 million, but the liberals pulled for him and his unscrupulous running mate, Edwards. The only difference between Kerry and Synder is Rick earned it and Kerry didn't. But I digress. The point of cherry picking one fact like cutting taxes (or not) for the so called wealthy cannot be viewed in isolation. First of all, I didn't vote for Reagan either but on RELATIVE scale, Reagan ushered in a huge amount of prosperity. He was the President who helped rebuild the economy that was left in shambles by the double digit inflation of the Carter years. The deficit Reagan caused was his massive spending on defense. I didn't agree with it, but that had NOTHING to do with the tax cuts for the so called rich. Notice how liberals, such as yourself, look at people keeping more of their own money as CREATING the deficit problem when it fact it's the SPENDING that is the problem. So, yes, even under Reagan, despite the things he did right to help correct the Carter nightmare, he started to run up the deficit which was a mistake. It was the SPENDING part of that equation that he screwed up, not the tax cut side. You see, you and all the liberals are going to get a major reality check when the full faith and credit of the US government becomes a term people actually laugh at. It will happen one day in the not too distant future. When that day happens, and we're all feeling the horrible pain of it, a beautiful thing will happen. Economic reality will finally set in, wiping all the delusions away, and entire unproductive agencies of the Federal government (and of State governments) will collapse and shut down. That period will actually be needed for the nation to eventually regain a sound financial footing. There is no other choice, except for the Fed to hyperinflate our currency away, and if they do that, then society will most assuredly collapse. I don't expect you to get any of this, like most liberals don't, which is why I expect liberals to feel the brunt of the pain when the collapse happens. Just remember: it was your big spending ways that will cause our eventual demise.

dennisd49

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 1:42 p.m.

Thanks Ed....we needed to be reminded that there is humor in almost everything.

Andrew MacKie-Mason

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 1:36 p.m.

@InsideTheHall: "One of the many things we learned last night is that the Socialist Republic of Ann Arbor is out of touch with mainstream America." Out of curiosity, do you understand the intellectual distinctions between communism, socialism, liberalism, progressivism, and their respective sub-groups? Or do you just like throwing labels around?

Andrew MacKie-Mason

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 1:35 p.m.

@EyeHeart: "and that my friends, pretty much sums up the arrogant attitude the people of Ann Arbor are famous for." It's obviously false to think that everyone in Ann Arbor is smarter than everyone in other places. But it's also false to think that everyone is equally smart. And places like Ann Arbor with major universities and a strong school system, do tend to attract intelligent individuals.

Andrew MacKie-Mason

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 1:24 p.m.

@VISHa: "gotta love Ann Arbor tolerance---anyone who disagrees with you is stupid and nuts, lol." Saying that some people who disagree with you are stupid or nuts is not the same as saying that anyone who disagrees with you is stupid and nuts.

Andrew MacKie-Mason

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 1:21 p.m.

@Dan H: "Tax breaks, however, are always a good thing. It's too bad liberals don't understand how prosperity is generated in a society." You do realize that that logic leads directly to anarchy? Do you think that anarchies are the most prosperous societies? @Dan H: "As I said in my first post on this thread, Detroit is the poster child of liberalism. Reality is terrible to face, isn't it." Can you provide any proof that the relationship between liberalism and illiteracy in Detroit is causal rather than correlative? It seems much more likely that Detroit is largely illiterate because of conservative assaults on the public education system.

skfina2

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 1:20 p.m.

@Dan H, "Tax breaks, however, are always a good thing. It's too bad liberals don't understand how prosperity is generated in a society." Um...were you around during the Reagan years? We saw then that trickle down economics didn't work, and they won't work now. Tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans end up right in their bank accounts or investment portfolios, not in the economy. But they do dig a nice hole in the deficit. Extending Bush's tax cuts to the wealthy will cost the country approximately $700 billion, right while we're in the middle of two wars and the worst financial situation since the Great Depression. How will they be paid for? Nobody in the Republican party has an answer for that. As for prosperity being generated, it is...for the wealthiest of the wealthy. The poor and the middle class have been stuck in a rut for years, while the rich get richer. This is not an opinion, it is a fact. Income redistribution has been occurring at an unprecented rate over the past decade - and not in a good way. And now Republican officials across the country will crow about reducing government spending to reduce the budget deficit, while any reputable economist will tell you that is exactly the wrong thing to do to get the country back on its feet and get people working again. Remember 1937? Probably not, but you should read up on it. Cuts in government spending plunged the country back into a depression. Does that sound appealing to you? It never ceases to amaze me how so many people can vote against their own economic self-interests.

dennisd49

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 1:15 p.m.

@ Dan H I'm glad that you were right on your statistic.....now what are you and all the rest of us going to do to correct the problem. Ignore it? Or are we going to put policies in place to address the problem. It's a shame in this Country that is a true statement. Shame on us?

Dan H

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 1:09 p.m.

Thank you, Edward, for digging that up. I stand corrected on a technical standpoint since it technically isn't a "majority." Now, liberals may want to chew on that horrible statistic. A MAJOR city that was once prosperous now has a nearly 50% illiteracy rate. For those who aren't just bad at reading but compromised in math, that means approximately 1 in 2 people in that city can't read. As I said in my first post on this thread, Detroit is the poster child of liberalism. Reality is terrible to face, isn't it.

Dan H

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 1:05 p.m.

Independent Thinker, I agree. It is annoying, that label "progressive." It implies they are for something great, when in fact, there's nothing great about their agenda whatsoever. However, liberals also stole the terms liberalism, which used to imply a libertarian. So now libertarians have to say "classical liberalism" to differentiate a constitutional government, and individual liberty (and all that implies), just as Stephen Landes used in his excellent post.

Dan H

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 12:58 p.m.

Gibulet, How dare I? It's a fact: a majority of people in Detroit can't read. That's what illiterate means. You can thank liberalism for that, whether you want it agree wit it or not, it's a darn fact. I said DETROIT. I didn't say the majority of liberals or progressives can't read...but the fact that I clearly said DETROIT in that sentence maybe questions your ability to do so. I am not fenced in by any blind political ideology. I put a huge amount of blame on Bush for the current situation. Obama has done nothing but make a bad situation worse. It's amazing to me that liberals can sit here and blame Bush all day long and give Obama a pass. You mark my words: we're headed for another Great Depression and it's going to happen BEFORE Obama leaves office, because most of it is being exacerbated by him. To be fair, if Bush were still in office, it would happen too. Deal with it. Obama's change was bogus.

Roadman

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 12:51 p.m.

Congratulations to our Governor-Elect Rick Snyder. Even though he did not win his Ann Arbor hometown, Michiganders gave him the biggest margin of victory in a Michigan governor's race since 1986. Ron Weiser is seeing his vision for a new conservative-run state government take shape.

dennisd49

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 12:45 p.m.

@ IT 1. What you refuse to take into consideration is that "without new ideas" there would have been no progress in our Country at all. That goes all the way back to the founding of our Country. If the idea of breaking away from England hadn't been there we'd still all be British citizens. If Edison hadn't "Invented" the electric light we'd still be burning candles. If Henry Ford hadn't started his company we'd be riding horses. For the most part I can agree with you. Were you talking about manufacturing products in our Country instead of importing them? Maybe we need to enforce "Free Trade" instead. 2. By all means what "LIBERALS" do with THEIR agenda may be unchanging. So to is a constant attack on Social Security, the idea that everyone is entitled to low cost insurance, or "REPEAL THE BUSINESS TAX" that is the creed to the "CONSERVATIVE". What would be progressive and not "smoke and mirrors" would for both parties to work on the issue and not be partisan about it. Or is that a new, novel, idea too. 3. Taking things back to what they were is not bad if they work. Unfortunately, we wouldn't even be having this conversation if they had worked. And you're right....it doesn't have to be new, it only has to work. 4. Again you're right when you say that I'm Liberal. I am if it means standing up for people less fortunate than me. If it means not placing my self-proclaimed morals on the rest. If it means working to make a difference in the future and not just by going back to the failed policies of the past. What we need is a BALANCE in policies and laws that are best for EVERYONE and not just the "BUSINESS". Maybe it would be better to ban both liberal and conservative from our vocabulary, go to a party system that promotes cooperation and working together instead of dividing us and concentrate on making the "AMERICAN DREAM" available to all of us.

Independent_Thinker

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 12:04 p.m.

Progressive is the most ridiculous smoke and mirrors term I have ever heard. I wish people would stop using it. The words "success" and "progress" are so completely subjective that I find it insulting to my intelligence to tell me you are a progressive. If you are not progressing something that is important to me (or the guy or girl next to me, etc), just how is it progressive? It's progressive to you, that's what you mean!! And, not this is not a partisan rant, I just despise nonsense terms. Why hasn't Gibulet's comment been removed yet? It contains caps. Many of my posts have been removed for that. Oh, wait, it is putting forth a liberal agenda comment, that's why.......

Independent_Thinker

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 11:56 a.m.

ACLABT, +1 Monica does sound like just another bitter liberal full of complaints, offering no solutions, and thinks that government should be a full on monarchy and we its subjects. My recollection of public school is that about 50% of teachers are sub par at best. I continue to wonder why people are always saying throwing more money at them and hiring more of them will somehow increase educational levels. What we need is a better educational system and the removal of sub-par etachers, not more or higher paid sub-par at best teachers. IT

Gibulet

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 11:46 a.m.

@ DAN H "than the liberal/progressive/illiterate (a majority can't even read there) city of Detroit." How DARE you. You disagree with a viewpoint, so you attack it and place them in a category with completely dissimilar things? Because I am progressive and liberal, I must be illiterate? That's like saying because you're Republican you must be stupid and do drugs. You have no actual point, so you smear other's ideals and beliefs. PATHETIC. Have you ever even BEEN to Detroit? Apart from the complete lack of caring from officials who have just "let the city go" there is no money for proper education....but that doesn't mean people can't read. There are colleges and hospitals in Detroit that contain highly educated people with more reason than yourself.

ACLABT

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 11:32 a.m.

Monica You sound rather vindictive and intolerant. Ann Arbor is full of do-good, angry, intolerant liberals. To the extreme. It was no surprise that Virg won that county. But by how much? One or Two percent? You are predicting what Snyder will do and stating it as fact. Get a grip. The liberal dems time is over. Read the writing on the wall. No one wants them in power.

Independent_Thinker

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 11:30 a.m.

@dennisd49, On the other hand LIBERAL: "Open to new ideas; broad-minded; tolerant". You can't "Re-invent" by keeping things the same. There are a few problems with your statement: 1) Being open to new ideas, broad minded and tolerant is not necessarily effective. Saving instead of spending and balancing a budget are not "new ideas". This whole "new ideas" thing is a red herring in many ways. Many of the most solid and effective ways to do things are simply old ideas that are not being enforced. 2) The defintiion of liberal in the dictionary in no way represents what liberals in government do. Their "agenda" is also an unchanging one that hides behind the code word "progressive". Exactly what qualifies as "progressive" is smoke and mirrors. 3) You can't re-invent by keeping things the same. No, but you can take them back to what works, it doesn't have to be new. 4) Your comment seems to reflect the average - I am a liberal and how I strongly feel about things and the fact that I discuss them with my heart on my sleeve makes others less intelligent than me. No, actually putting your nose to the grindstone gets things done. Most people commonly defined as "intellectuals" these days are often weak people who talk instead of do. They are flapping maws incapable of real achievement and think with their emotions instead of their brain. Ideas come from the heart and are executed by the brain. As you can see, ideas from the heart (change anyone?) with no brainpower or work behind them always fail. IT

DonBee

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 11:22 a.m.

@Monica R-W - You will find the highest concentration of government supported jobs in those two areas (I include universities in government supported jobs), so since the government has been the largest growth industry in the US over the last 24 months, of course the unemployment is low in Lansing and Ann Arbor. It is not the local policies that make the unemployment low, it is the government engine that has made unemployment low. There is nothing wrong with this, it is just a fact of life. Cuts to the state budget will disproportionalty impact employment in Lansing. Depending on how the UofM reacts, it may have a large impact on Ann Arbor too. What will come will be painful for everyone in the state. Something that each person believes in will end up with cuts. Sure we can raise taxes, but to what level and on who? Gasoline in Florida is 10 cents a gallon cheaper than Michigan, Texas is 15 cents cheaper - the difference - state taxes. How much can you raise taxes before people decide to leave, look at Detroit, if you have a good income, your first move is out of the city and the tax structure. Don't think people will not move further if the taxes get higher. We need a balance, and it will be painful to find the right balance point between new taxes and spending cuts. I feel for Rick Snyder right now because it will take a toll on him. I want to thank everyone who stood for election in the state, regardless of party or office. I for one could not stand to have someone dig into my life, put words in my mouth or have people attribute things to me that I had not intention of doing. Anyone who stands for office today is to be praised not punished. Their families also need our thanks and apologies.

cinnabar7071

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 11:20 a.m.

"the TWO areas of the state with the lowest unemployment rate our county AND the area of Lansing, voted against "nerd Gov" and, for Bernero." The same could be said about the areas with the highest unemployment rate Detroit. Don't worry we will set it up so YOU can take care of yourself and not have to rely on big Gov't.

dennisd49

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 11:19 a.m.

@ Stephen Landes I don't disagree with many of the statements you made. However, I don't consider myself a Socialist, a communist, nor do I want to redistribute the wealth. My point is, we need to rethink the names, i.e. Liberal or Conservative, that we have been tagged with. I agree that we need to work together to solve the real issues. I don't agree that Businessmen can solve the problem magically by "getting rid of the business tax". Will that solve the problem? Will that bring back the better paying jobs that have been sent "off-shore" or to China, Mexico, South America, Korea, etc. that have left in the name of pursuing high profits and high bonus's. That has been my experience in the 31 + years that I worked. As far as the redistribution of wealth, you only need to look to the auto industry, retail such as Wal-Mart, education, Banking, etc. to see where things are going. WE, want the best but we DON'T want to pay for it. $1.7 billion in profits in one quarter by Ford Motor Company. MichCon, DTE, Oil Companies, etc. posting huge profits. Worker's making do with lower paying jobs while the Banking Industry foreclose on their homes. There has to be a balance to profits and wages and in goods and services in order for the majority of American Middle-class workers to survive. I don't see a move by either party to address the real problem. We need a Manufacturing Policy" in this Country, in this State. All the rest of the world has them. Is it wrong to build and manufacture the goods we consume in this Country? Look to your Bible. Who did Jesus drive from the temple? It was the money changers. It wasn't the common people.

InsideTheHall

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 11:07 a.m.

Monica: All that is missing is the violin music. To quote President Obama: "Elections has consequences."

Monica R-W

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 10:57 a.m.

Say what you will about Ann Arbor and Washtenaw County but, I will go as far to say we have the smartest voters within Southeastern Michigan. We look at the facts and determine our vote, based off those facts. Not a "nicely packaged" commercial that stated "jobs, jobs, jobs" without ONE real idea how to create one. Here is some facts for "nerd" Governor Snyder. Michigan's pain which has been deep, will be WORST on the financial front in 2011. Our 2010 budget was saved by President Obama's stimulus package. There is no stimulus money coming into Michigan in 2011. So, "nerd guy" will take off the "I am the nice Republican" gloves and get to cutting. Education spending....cut (get ready for the the classrooms to get larger and teachers to be eliminated). Social programs...gone. (In a time when more Michiganders are receiving Food Stamps and Medicaid...look for Medicaid cuts to be drastic and Food Stamps to be a thing of the past). Prison spending....up, way up (we will have to lock up more of our citizens since, Snyder will cut every lifeline available to keep them afloat). Environmental policy...out (drilling for oil and adding crap to Michigan's Great Lakes, will be the law of the land). We in Washtenaw County were SMART ENOUGH to see past the BS and know the impact of what the "nerd" will do to our great state. Here is the kicker....the TWO areas of the state with the lowest unemployment rate our county AND the area of Lansing, voted against "nerd Gov" and, for Bernero. Amazingly enough, both of these areas managed to achieve LOW unemployment during very difficult times with LIBERAL policies. We might have lost the battle yesterday but we will win the war! Michigan will give "nerd Snyder" a Blanchard treatment, (one term and out you go) in four years, when they realize "cute" campaign commercials have NOTHING to do with pulling our state, out of the deep crisis it is in. Enjoy the victory now, GOP. Michiganders will learn this lesson in "4 short years" and vote all your candidates....back to the sidelines. That is if "nerd Governor" is not recalled first.....

Stephen Landes

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 10:36 a.m.

@dennisd49 Interesting thoughts you have but I completely disagree. Being conservative in principles and liberal in terms of being open to new ideas are not mutually exclusive positions. Mr. Snyder is conservative in principle -- personal liberty and personal responsibility, limited government, etc -- and liberal in being open to new ideas: how could he be a successful venture capitalist and be close-minded to new ideas? Where we get into trouble is applying the term liberal to a political party. Everything I read and here in this town form people who profess to be "liberal" is in fact very biased: people who believe in conservative values are ignorant, stupid, uneducated. Those people are the least liberal of any I know. They may be "left wing", socialist, or some other political or economic point of view, but they are not liberal. Mr. Snyder will not be keeping things the same if by that you mean retaining the mass of government and programs left to us by years of traditional big party politics. He will return us to constitutional government where government serves the needs of the people and treats people as its customers rather than, as John Dingell described it with respect to health care, the master creating "regulations to control the people". We do need to reinvent Michigan by reinvigorating the creativity and innovation of our people, getting government off their backs and out of the way, and using government to create a regulatory environment that encourages growth. Let's see if we can have some real discussion about what terms like conservative and liberal really mean rather than using them as inappropriate nick names. Our Funders gave us a Declaration of Independence and a Constitution that are derived from conservative principles: that our rights come from our Creator and not from government, that government is put in place by the people to secure (protect, not dole out) life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. These same Founders were also interested in scientific advances and recognized the need for social change. They weren't stuck in the acts of the past and it is here that we make a great mistake. We tend to confuse conservative principles with lack of change. Think about this from a science perspective: gravity is a principle, but the uses we put it to are wide open to new thought and limited only by our investigation and creativity. Subscribing to principle, unchanging laws which govern our fundamental relationships, is true conservatism. Valuing open thought that appreciates and seeks new applications is true liberalism. I have read thoughts from some who are bemoaning our recent election because they think it means the end to, for example, the film credits in Michigan. The assumption is that no or reduced film credits means no film making. I think what they are saying is that creativity needs to be subsidized by or even proceeds from the state. What some people seem to forget is that one person's subsidy is another's burden: what apparently frees one person to express themselves in the case of state money restrains others by adding to their economic burden. Creativity is not the child of the state, but is inherent within each of us. What we most need is an environment that takes the limits off people and allows them to be whatever they want to be. Those who believe they can only achieve by feeding at the public trough are the most dismayed and lost of all of us. What these folks seem to be clinging to is socialism, not liberalism; an economic philosophy rather than a political philosophy. What they essentially are asking is that all of us pay them to exercise their creativity, isolated from economic reality; that their "creative juices" are more important than their neighbor's right to pursue happiness in their own way. In my opinion Democrats need to be honest about who they are. They like redistributing wealth in the honest belief that they will help people. The impulse that drives this policy is honorable, it calls for socialism, not liberalism. I have no more regard for those Democrats and Republicans who would tell people how they must live their private lives: that isn't conservative, it is tyranny. What we most need is conservative principle, learning about, honoring, and following the Declaration of Independence and our Constitution, and true, classical liberal thought knowing that ideas are valid when they don't violate principle: at one time the sun revolving around the earth was a new idea, but it was invalid because it violated principle. Not all ideas are valid, but we need to think them and discuss them and not be afraid to discard them when, like communism, they are found to violate our most basic principles.

michaywe

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 10:33 a.m.

"Here we go again. More war, tax breaks for the rich and the only civilized western country with no national health care"..annarbortownie. You're crowd has had two years to end the war, develop a tax policy that contains something other than increases, create jobs and destroy our health care system. Now we can get over the past two years of leaders refusing to work with rich, white men who own companies and instead of demonizing them, ENGAGE THEM! BTW- who say's we're CIVILIZED?

American Family

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 9:47 a.m.

New age Democrats (not the old time Democrats of the 1960's and back) & Liberals & Hippies & Progressives & Communists & Socialists & Marxist need to understand that our founding fathers gave us, a Capitalist styled Representative Republic. They did not give us some version of Socialism. This is sending the current White House administration a message that we do not want any form of socialism. The very large majority of Americans, and Michiganders are not Communists or Liberals or Hippies or Progressives or Communists or Socialists or Marxist. This is a Representative Republic, based in Capitalism. If you don't like the United States, or Michigan leave and go to Cuba or Canada. It is just a few minutes away, and you can live in Socialists heaven and be happy forever more. Need help packing? And by the way. Enough with bashing President Bush. It is President Obama's turn, and has been his game for the last year. Under his leadership things have gotten worse, not better. Even the Chinese have warned him of financial irresponsibility with the American economy! So give it a rest.

Tom

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 8:40 a.m.

Indeed, this is only the beginning. Now comes the difficult part as the push and pull of politics can resume since the republicans have a foothold. The republicans have captured a beachhead from which to offset the unrestrained policies of the left and the people (public opinion) can sway the outcome. Power unchecked was becoming a tyranny. Thank God for the wisdom of the founding Fathers that discovered a way to course correct without bloodshed.

jcj

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 8:28 a.m.

tigger112 " Obama has been called everything from a nazi, to a socialist, to a communist, to an alien, to a liar, to a traitor and more - much more." And Bush was called some unflattering things before, during and after his term. Which proves my earlier point. "And that is that if someone thinks different than you they must be stupid." When does the finger pointing and name calling stop? How is it that the same voters that were geniuses 2 years ago have now suddenly lost their marbles. The only difference between those that call Obama names and those that call Bush names is the Bush naysayers think they are doing it from a loftier throne.

xmo

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 8:23 a.m.

I love the way the Dems rewrite history. Bush was President for 8 years but the Dems controlled the house his last two years. So it was not Bush and his cronies it was Bush and the Democrats. For the last 4 years the Dems have controlled the House and the Senate, the only thing could could do was approve or veto a bill so in reality the Dems have been in power for the last 4 years. Look what we got 10%plus unemployment and trillions of dollars in debt.

Dan H

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 8:21 a.m.

tigger, You are amazingly blinded by your partisanship. It's amazing to me how people can't just get out from their fenced in beliefs. A lot of what you say is true about the Bush administration. Some is incorrect...that deregulation caused the problems but I'm not going to argue that here. Let's just focus on what we agree on: bush got us into the wars; bush started TARP; bush ran up deficits, ALL guilty as charged. Then amazingly you try to give Obama a pass. Are you kidding me? Obama has done NOTHING but scale up what Bush disastrously had already done. Obama has exploded the deficit. Obama could have pulled us out of the wars, but he hasn't. Obama EXTENDED the bail outs of Wall Street when he didn't have to. Obama put in the same Wall Street cronies and team that Bush had. You have just got to be kidding me. Bush started a huge mess and Obama is extending that mess and we're all going to be another Great Depression within 2 years time. So stop trying to defend the left. Democrats are best hope? You have got to be joking.

Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 8:15 a.m.

@tig - please continue your thoughts: Which Bush policy tanked the economy? I always hear the phrase but I never hear the details - I am interested...

David

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 8:04 a.m.

Ok GovNerd. Get out your check book. It now yours to rescue.

ViSHa

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 8:02 a.m.

completely agree with you jcj

dennisd49

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 7:55 a.m.

Congratulations to Mr. Snyder. He was not my choice for Governor. I just hope that Governor Elect Snyder does what he says and "Re-invents" Michigan, though I doubt that can happen with a conservative Republican leadership. You don't have to look far to understand why I believe this. According to Webster: CONSERVATIVE means "wanting to keep things as they are and being against change and reform". On the other hand LIBERAL: "Open to new ideas; broad-minded; tolerant". You can't "Re-invent" by keeping things the same. "The Democrats need to understand that our founding fathers gave us a constitution," he said. "They didn't give us socialism. This is sending President Obama a message, a big message: We are not socialists. We are not communists. This is a Republic and this is what it comes down to. If you don't like the United States, get the hell out of here and go to Canada.". With an attitude like this we are heading into the same old fights, the same old policies from the Republican leadership.

jcj

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 7:42 a.m.

The inclination is to lash out at annarbortownie for his remarks. But they only mirror what most of us think to some degree. And that is that if someone thinks different than you they must be stupid. Well the fact of the matter is that most people want what is best for their families and the country. And it does not matter what side of the political spectrum they are on. I can't see where either party has a monopoly on brains. We could all point to what appear to be lame brain idea's by the either party over the last 50 +years. We can blame Bush or Obama for all our troubles but we the people need to take some responsibility for our greed. We all want something for nothing.

Smiley

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 7:34 a.m.

While I disagree with much of the progressive liberal posts here, looking through their eyes, I understand their perspective. I think many of their goals are admirable, but I differ in opinion on the means to accomplish them.

Dan H

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 7:23 a.m.

To Ann Arbor Townie, If "a nation is only as strong as its weakest citizens" then surely a state is no different. That means the entire state of MI is no better than the liberal/progressive/illiterate (a majority can't even read there) city of Detroit. We took a huge step back a long time ago with the massive government intervention proposed by liberals. Detroit is the poster child of liberalism run amok, not republicanism (even if there is much to fault the republicans for). However, I will agree the war was a terrible thing. Tax breaks, however, are always a good thing. It's too bad liberals don't understand how prosperity is generated in a society.

ViSHa

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 7:10 a.m.

gotta love Ann Arbor tolerance---anyone who disagrees with you is stupid and nuts, lol.

annarbortownie

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 7 a.m.

Looking at the national results one can never underestimate the stupidity of the American voter. Tea partiers are nuts and no one seems to have figured out that it took Bush and his cronies 8 years to completely screw things up. It would have taken more than 2 years to fix it. Here we go again. More war, tax breaks for the rich and the only civilized western country with no national health care. A nation is only as strong as it weakest citizens and we just took a huge step BACK.

InsideTheHall

Wed, Nov 3, 2010 : 6:49 a.m.

One of the many things we learned last night is that the Socialist Republic of Ann Arbor is out of touch with mainstream America. Even John Dingell in his protected bluest of blue districts saw his margin of victory drop below 70% for the first time ever.