Cheryl

Wed, Jan 5, 2011 : 5:57 p.m.

@Marie: "There isn't enough information in either article with which anyone could put forth a viable judgment one way or the other. I think that both the girlfriend and the mother are going to have to step out in public, bite back any fears they have of humiliation, and both provide their side of the story. Without public testimonials by either person, Ann Arbor will never let this story rest." "It's a horrible situation all around, and the involved parties are simply going to have to make a stand." It's a private issue, not something that needs to be discussed in public. It's been three weeks since Ann Arbor.com published the story and already Ann Arbor has let this story rest. Few people are posting comments. They surely have very short memories and shallow brains that lack concentration, contemplation, and reflection. Welcome to the world of the internet and twitter.

Sam Smith

Mon, Jan 3, 2011 : 6:39 p.m.

xinu, I apologize for being snarky about the amygdala. I was wrong to do that to you and anyone else. I've read it's theory on social emotional development in the the past and I have attended a conference about research studying the amygdala with anxiety and depression and suicide attempts. I see what you are writing about but without being snarky, I think there's more to this than just the amygdala. This situation is a mess. Please accept my apology.

xinu

Sun, Jan 2, 2011 : 4:29 p.m.

"Do you really think the Board of Education would vote to dismiss any teacher without a proper investigation? Who is in a union? After consulting a lawyer? Do you really think a teacher's union would not protest an unfair allegation or investigation?" yes, i do. you should not say things you don't know anything about. xinu

Sam Smith

Wed, Dec 29, 2010 : 2:52 p.m.

xinu Wow explain that to Mr. Mark! About the kiss and email part of your analysis with the neural pathways. Wow I thought I read and heard it all and then this! There's a little more than the amygdala going on here. And a social world does not preclude concepts of right and wrong. Jumping to conclusions? Do you really think the Board of Education would vote to dismiss any teacher without a proper investigation? Who is in a union? After consulting a lawyer? Do you really think a teacher's union would not protest an unfair allegation or investigation? Do you really think a lawyer is credible by playing on emotions and stating the word appropriate is the New Scarlet Letter in 2010? 2010? Not 1600s but 2010 in liberal Ann Arbor? That it is acceptable for a teacher to do this? You would approve this kind of behavior by a teacher to a child/your child? Wow! Simply incredible!

jenniferh

Wed, Dec 29, 2010 : 2:30 p.m.

@Xinu I appreciate your knowledge of the brain, but your comments don't add additional facts to this new story. Please don't post any more comments unless you know something about what really happened with Mark and the student 5 years ago and are willing to share it with us. We (at least I for one) are not interested in your brain theory. As Marie, DBV, ViSH, Speechless and a few other people commented, there is little information and too much speculations. I want to know what really happened and if the school district has made an appropriate decision or not about Mark's tenure. I have been waiting for A2.com to report additional findings and facts or someone else who knows the truth to come forward and let us know by talking to the reporter or posting a comment to the A2.com.

xinu

Wed, Dec 29, 2010 : 12:28 p.m.

@DBV i agree with you. but you should understand we live in the social world which rewards "simplicity" and "efficiency". have you read my comments posted Dec 19? most of us have developed a specialized neural pathways such as: male teacher + female student => sexual relationship suicidal student + desire to help => school counselor they allow us to jump to conclusions without deliberations that require our conscious attention and time, two of the most precious resources in the social world of human beings. The act of deliberation demands that we stop to think, stop to do daily routines and chores in our busy lives, and our lived experiences in the modern social world have made the neural circuits to be associated with negative emotions via the amygdala. xinu

Bill Rosenthal

Tue, Dec 28, 2010 : 10:05 p.m.

To: erd Your comment (12/18/2010) that "The relationship described in the News is between consenting adults. It is not the business of the School Board to regulate such relationships given the evidence that has been presented. It is the business of the School Board and the Huron Administration to ensure that a decent educational environment and competent teaching is provide for students. The Huron Administration and the AAPS Administration more generally are fully aware they employ counselors who do not know the names of the students with whom they work, and employ teachers who lack the ability to teach the courses they are assigned. While wasting time and money on what appears to be a frivolous complaint stemming from a deeply disturbed family situation, the School Board is failing to address issues that plainly do fall within its jurisdiction (and how far can we, as tax payers, trust a Board that is offering an irresponsibly high salary for an as yet not to be identified superintendent; it would be unkind to suggest that the Board has taken on this issue to suppress its failure to perform its basic fiduciary responsibility)." I totally agree with you. The school counselor for my daughter was too busy with other students he had to deal with and he had hard time remembering my daughter's name who also was in depression after she entered a high school (not Huron). She tried to see him but often he wasn't available when she needed him the most. I heard from a parent who has a child in Huron orchestra that the school district had hired an outside attorney a few months ago who specializes in the tenure laws. It's really a waste of our tax money to go after a poor guy who may or may not have behaved professionally five years ago. I wish they would use our money to hire better counselors and teachers than to hire a lawyer to pursue the allegation that is way out of a statute of limitations. As you "unkindly" suggested, I too wonder, if the school district and the board are using the case against Mark as a smoke screen to cover up something much more serious that may not at all be related to the Mark's case. Could this possibly be a distraction strategy to hide some "real" and "serious" issues within the district from us tax payers?

Sam Smith

Tue, Dec 28, 2010 : 5:52 p.m.

No one is thinking that this is a "game" but it's not all about Mr. Mark either. It's about all students, their parents, teachers everywhere. I don't know if his career or life is ruined or not nor do I want this for him, the girlfriend, the girlfriend's family, his students. There are professional standards in place for a reason. Every job, every career has them like it or not and these standards should be applied without favoritism or manipulative means. These professional standards do not always have to be a breaking the law--people can't go to work nude because it's their Constitutional Right and Freedom of Speech (unless it's a nudist colony). Professional standards are values and qualities that are agreed upon and upheld by a group who believe that is the right thing to do. You don't like the standards you can try to change them such in the case of discrimination or find another job. No one is making this a game far from it. Professional standards, healthy boundaries and suicide are all very serious.

Sam Smith

Tue, Dec 28, 2010 : 4:34 p.m.

I would like to add that regardless of the mother wanting to control her adult daughter... True, when a child turns 18 they are now considered an adult. There is nothing more heartbreaking than to see your adult child, brother or sister, etc. hurt himself/herself somehow and you can't do anything about it because he/she is an adult now. If you think this is no big deal just wait. People question the mother's motives and people are questioning Mr. Mark motives. Motives aside--do we want this type of behavior between a teacher and a student without a parent's knowledge? Do we want to risk the life of a student by not taking the proper treatment for suicide (still no guarantee if proper treatment but more likely suicide or harm could come from inappropriate treatment)? What if this wasn't Mr. Mark? We should all support this? Does it bother anyone that he did this in secrecy other than a ride to a school concert? It's OK he's "trustworthy" but what about someone else?

Sam Smith

Tue, Dec 28, 2010 : 3:59 p.m.

People ask "Why is the mother starting this now?" Not sure, perhaps she didn't know back then. Even the best of teens don't always tell the best of parents what they are doing especially if the know a parent won't approve. What parent would approve of a 40 year old teacher writing a disturbing email, kiss their child, go out with your child without your knowledge or treat your child who is suicidal is this way (again without your knowledge)? What parent? It doesn't matter why now. Heck for that matter maybe it's the girlfriend who is resenting his time spent with his students one on one (teaching a student to parallel park, etc.) and leaving her behind. I'm not saying it is the girlfriend --the point is that it doesn't matter who. It doesn't matter why now and by who because right is right and wrong is wrong. The question is: Was there inappropriate, unhealthy, unprofessional, untrustworthy behavior? It also doesn't matter that this is between a white man and an Asian woman. This is Ann Arbor and it's very diverse. This is about a 40 year old man in a position of authority over a 17 year old student who was also vulnerable in that she was suicidal. What facts that are reported on what Mr. Mark did --is not acceptable as positive in professional standards in "American" or any other culture. If so please let us know. And please find me one teacher, one healthcare professional who would advocate the use of a disturbing email and a kiss, a golf outing and watching a hockey game, and a dinner without letting the parent know is a way to treat suicide. Parents you'd welcome this behavior by a teacher? Psychologists and Psychiatrists anywhere--do you do this for your patients? Teachers--what do you think? OK we will wait to get all of the facts but with what facts are known/reported this is inappropriate behavior. If what is reported are not facts and are lies then Mr. Mark should set the record straight. I know I would. Suicide is very serious--did Mr. Mark take her to a health professional for help or did he take it upon himself to be her therapist? I'm waiting to for all of the facts to come in too but people are missing the point when they blame the mother, focusing on when (do we want this to ever happen again?), make it racial or cultural, accuse the school board of wrongdoing. OK how to treat suicide? What middle ground to handle this are people proposing? I ask legitimate questions and am not making judgment on Mr. Mark but on the behavior in question. I'd be asking the same questions and stating that suicide is serious to whoever did this.

DBV

Tue, Dec 28, 2010 : 8:40 a.m.

So many people have negative comments on this...why is it people are not waiting for all the facts before they make a decision. Why is it that human nature always jumps to the worst. Most teachers have students or parents who like them or who don't...doesn't make them a bad person. In 9 years there has never been an accusation or complaint. This complaint does not come from a student, but a parent who just doesn't like the relationship. Why is she starting this now? Why not 5 or 6 years ago? Readers wait for the facts...don't take it all out of context...this is two people's lives and careers...not a game.

Margaret965

Sun, Dec 26, 2010 : 12:49 p.m.

@Sam Smith You posted "And before anyone blames the student's mother again give her the same "wonderful" that is given to Mr. Mark. This woman has (like most parents try) sacrificed many things and loves her daughter very much. She is not the villain." I think there is much more to the story we don't know. Have you read a news report of AAPS school board meeting written in the ann arbor chronicle? It says "Parents challenged the board to be confident in their assessment of Marks behavior, and not to rush to judgment. They likened the districts investigation to a witch hunt, and a vendetta brought by the parents of the former Huron student who Mark is now dating. Yi Keep added that there are ethno-cultural issues at play, contending that the former students parents are using Mark as a pawn to control their daughters behavior. http://annarborchronicle.com/2010/12/21/aaps-pursues-tenure-charges-against-two/ And I watched Yi Keep speak in the board meeting on youbute. She said "Asian culture is different from American culture... this is in root a personal issue, it's not a public issue.........'s parents can't get her to see their way, so they determined to use Mr. Mark basically as a pawn." You should watch it too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50a65hI3VpY According to the ann arbor chronicle article, there was another lawyer who spoke in the board meeting. The article says "Marian Faupel, an attorney and former member of the Saline Area Schools board of education, encouraged the board to follow the law." The article does not say if the lawyer is representing the mother or the district. I think she was the lawyer who represented defendant parents in the famous Baby Jessica case. She must be a very expensive lawyer. If the district hired Marian Faupel to investigate Mark's conducts, it would be really a waste or our tax money.

jenniferh

Sun, Dec 26, 2010 : 11:33 a.m.

@Sam Smith "Do I think he should be fired? I don't know but now he is wrote "my life is in your hands" to young, impressionable idealistic teens for viral support campaign rather than be a role model and step up. He's continuing the same type rescue me-rescue you guilt trip laden manipulative email as he did 5 years ago." Please read Nancy's comment carefully, Sam. Mark did not appeal just to students. He appealed to Parents/Students/Alumni" and I think his appeal is addressed more so to the parents and alumni, they are the ones why pay tax to support the school district, not the students.

Bill Rosenthal

Sat, Dec 25, 2010 : 3:41 p.m.

@ Margaret965: thank you for the link to Roumel's video. I don't hear him saying what the AA.com reporter wrote in the article. I will watch it again but I agree with you, the reporter must have quoted from Roumel's letter to the school board. Did he send a copy of the letter to AA.com too? How did AA.com obtain the letter? @ jenniferh: thank you for making an effort to transcribe Roumel's speech. What did Roumel mean when he said the woman involved with Mark "is doing a lot better than she was and I think that drives some people crazy" Did he mean the school administrators? Can't be a mother of the woman, can it? What kind of mother would not feel pleased to see her own daughter overcoming depression? Happy holiday

Margaret965

Sat, Dec 25, 2010 : 7:59 a.m.

@Kyle " Marks attorney, Nick Roumel of Nacht Law, said the district could lose a teacher who not only did his job well, but also inspired his students. " " For me, theres a little irony that theres a lot of teachers who come to work every day and do their jobs and they dont necessarily inspire kids, but as long as they dont do anything wrong, they keep their jobs and keep working, he said. But a teacher who inspires students like Chris Mark does makes one alleged error because he cared too much, and gets the boot. " I don't hear Nick Roumel saying the above. Are you quoting him from his letter you received by accident? I watched a youtube video of Roumel speaking in the board meeting. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZHqu_ml_bg&feature=related There are six other speakers on youtube. Search for the videos with "Ann Arbor Public Schools Board Meeting Public Commentary"

Alex

Thu, Dec 23, 2010 : 7:45 p.m.

@Stephie Choi, agreed, huh, shows how much some people don't know doesn't it?

Stephie

Thu, Dec 23, 2010 : 2:51 p.m.

You captioned the first picture wrong. He was standing, not sitting.

jenniferh

Wed, Dec 22, 2010 : 4:34 p.m.

Transcription of Nick Roumel's address given during the boarding meeting held on December 15, 2010 (I taped the meeting played on CTN channel 18 last week. Has anyone seen if the man as reported in AA2.com article uploaded his video to youtube?) Trustees and superintendent Allen thank you very much. This is what I would have said to you had I been able to address you (note: in the closed session which preceded the public board meeting, he requested for his attendance but was not permitted). This is an extraordinary case with extraordinary circumstances and I cant be as frank in public as I might have been in private to talk about some of those details. But what I can assure you of is that everything youve heard in this room today and everything Mr. Mark did in this case was guided from his sense of trying to help, and he did help, and the young woman involved is doing very well today. She is doing a lot better than she was and I think that drives some people crazy But we look at some of the facts in this case we need to bear in mind what actions actually occurred, and what we are holding against him, that are subjective. And we use this word sometimes, and I think, you know while I was in high school I read a book, The Scarlet Letter. And we have this new word these days.. that word is appropriate. And thats the new Scarlet Letter. Its somebodys judgment of what is appropriate. Chris Mark broke no law. Chris Mark broke no rule. Chris mark acted from the heart. He acted out of his sense of help. He succeeded. He did in the same way he helped all of his other students, and we have to keep all that in mind. If you believe that some of the communications that some of the actions were not appropriate, its incumbent upon you as a board to put some guidelines and standards in place, because there were none. If you know that teachers need to be able to go forward without having to make an assessment, now they need to have those standards in place so (when) they cant make an assessment on unique circumstances or what I call an extraordinary circumstance so they can. have to decide am I doing something somebody might deem as inappropriate. There were no warnings that were significant, whatever there were they were not significant enough to document. Here we are four years later. Four years later and in the meantime if you think, if he acted inappropriately then punish him. Send him a message but it doesnt have to be the death penalty. And if you are being told, that you have no choice but to terminate or, essentially slap on the wrist, that is completely false. Its absolutely false. Your attorneys know that anything we can creatively come up with that protects the children in this district to your satisfaction and does not throw away an extraordinary teacher who has given his heart and his soul to his students is in this case that would be appropriate. So he is an extraordinary teacher. He is a fine young man. I have enjoyed getting to know him. I have never seen this kind of astonishing support for a teacher. And if he was truly a danger or a problem to the district why do you have, no other complaints, but say one parent in nine years. And this is a time when people, if they do have a complaint, you know they come out of the woodwork. So I ask did you find it in your hearts and in your creative minds to come up with a solution where we can satisfy everybodys concerns and not engage in brinksmanship [inaudible]. And I look forward to trying to reach that resolution with you. So, thank you very much. I appreciate the opportunity to speak to you.

jenniferh

Wed, Dec 22, 2010 : 7:56 a.m.

@Kyle Feldscher at A2.com " Chris Mark broke no law. Chris Mark broke no rule. Chris Mark acted from a sense of wanting to help and acted as he did with all of his other students, Roumel said. " Roumel did NOT said it. Please be accurate when quoting someone. This is what Roumel said in the board meeting. "Chris Mark broke no law. Chris Mark broke no rule. Chris mark acted from the heart. He acted out of his sense of help. He succeeded. He did in the same way he helped all of his other students, and we have to keep all that in mind."

Marie

Tue, Dec 21, 2010 : 10:11 p.m.

I've read this article and its comments time and time again, and I've come to this conclusion: There isn't enough information in either article with which anyone could put forth a viable judgment one way or the other. I think that both the girlfriend and the mother are going to have to step out in public, bite back any fears they have of humiliation, and both provide their side of the story. Without public testimonials by either person, Ann Arbor will never let this story rest. It's a horrible situation all around, and the involved parties are simply going to have to make a stand.

Speechless

Tue, Dec 21, 2010 : 11:31 a.m.

"... there is an incompleteness of information and until there is, if there ever is, everything is speculation/hearsay. Probably a more current comparison might be 'Doubt'...." Yes, I'll go along with that! Doubt provides an excellent metaphorical comparison.

robyn

Tue, Dec 21, 2010 : 12:06 a.m.

@ Sam: That's a very good question - "if it were your daughter"... Probably one of the reasons it's more difficult for me to really make any type of "judgement" regarding this issue. On one hand, I have a very good and very close relationship with my own daughter. While she is quite open with me in sharing everything from basic school 'gossip' (usually wondering what she should do) to some pretty deep discussions about her own feelings about things. But I'm not her friend - I'm her Mom. Something I have always made very clear to my kids - I love them dearly - but I am not one of their 'buddies'. I would hope if things got to a point in her life that she even contemplated ending her life - that she would be able to come to me. But what if she didn't? A good friend of mine lost her own daughter a couple of months ago. She took her own life, she was just 17. My friend is completely lost. I can't even fathom the idea of losing one of my children much less the thought of their death by their own hand. If there was anything that my friend could do to go back and change things - she knew her daughter was having some problems - but her daughter didn't tell her how much pain she was in - maybe if she had shared it with just one person who cared enough, she would still be here. But then - on the other hand - knowing my daughter like I do - and she IS one of those kids that is 14 going on 80, (Totally skipped the teen stuff - but I'm waiting for it to kick in with a vengence.) I would definitely take a closer look at any relationship with another adult outside of our family that seems closer than 'normal' for her. And she does have a couple of really great teachers that she is 'close' to. HOWEVER - I also know those teachers and I am in contact with them so I know what's going on. But I would definitely go to the teacher to find out what's going on and if there is a reason for my concern. But that's just me. Maybe all parents are not like that. This topic is a real 'thinker' - so many different views - and none that are completely right or wrong.

ViSHa

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 11:02 p.m.

@Speechless, i definitely see your point, and it would be a lot easier for me to believe his version/intent if they were not involved romantically now (not sure how soon after graduation this began). i also don't like the way the students are being manipulated for his benefit (i know they don't think they are). You are correct, however, there is an incompleteness of information and until there is, if there ever is, everything is speculation/hearsay. Probably a more current comparison might be 'Doubt';)

Speechless

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 10:08 p.m.

There are some who continue to demand Mark's head on a platter despite an overwhelming incompleteness of information. Why the blood lust? Does anyone have a connection to a school board that must feel a tad defensive? While the more negative, knee-jerk final judgments have called to mind the villagers in The Scarlett Lettter, now I'm leaning toward The Crucible as a metaphorical comparison. After all, who needs evidence?

glacialerratic

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 9:21 p.m.

About the "permission" given by the mother, its worth recalling what was in the original article, which seems to have been forgotten after all these comments: "According to Roumel, Mark only spent social time with his current girlfriend three times while she was a student going golfing and watching a hockey game, visiting her home to take her to a middle school concert with her mothers permission and a "quick dinner" at Applebees." All we can know from this statement is that the mother gave her daughter permission to accept a ride with Mr. Mark to attend a middle school concert, and not to the other activities mentioned by Mr. Marks lawyer. No one can conclude that her parents knew about these other episodes or understood the extent or nature of the teacher's involvement with their daughter.

Sam Smith

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 9:08 p.m.

@quieted OK This is how it goes and I didn't invent the wheel. Most jobs are not union and are called "at will" employers meaning they can fire you pretty much for whatever they want (some basic rights are the exception), Not to scare the young teens of the world but jobs are scarce and employers want no nonsense, professional, intelligent, objective, qualified, accountable people. I don't know how much more info you need to be shown that he was wrong with the email and kiss. Sorry, but the real working world does not work that way. If he was not union I can't think of any place that would not fire him after he did that for nothing more other than the fear of something called harassment, Find me one teacher, one mental health professional who would say this email or kiss is not wrong to treat a person who was suicidal.. He could have apologized, showed that since that time there have been no further incidents, offered to be monitored (maybe he did) or even quietly resigned to save the community. He has a union and the union would not let this get to this point unless it is serious. Again he has a union. Do I think he should be fired? I don't know but now he is wrote "my life is in your hands" to young, impressionable idealistic teens for viral support campaign rather than be a role model and step up. He's continuing the same type rescue me-rescue you guilt trip laden manipulative email as he did 5 years ago. There is cause for alarm here. His life should not be in anyone's hands but his own. Not his students! What is he saying to them? His career may be in jeopardy but to write his students that his life is in their hands? My cousin killed herself. Suicide is very serious. This has gone too far.

ViSHa

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 7:59 p.m.

i guess the "my life is in your hands" is par for the course for this passionate man. has it ever been stated in a story how the BOE got ahold of the email? I understand aa.com got it accidently by an employee being included on the email list, but if it was between Mark and the student, how did it ever get in the hands of AAPS?

Matt Cooper

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 7:56 p.m.

Just for thos einterested in finding out a little bot about the professional ethics possibly involved: 1. The Association of Americna Educators Code of Conduct (http://www.aaeteachers.org/index.php/about-us/aae-code-of-ethics) states: "4. The professional educator makes a constructive effort to protect the student from conditions detrimental to learning, health, or safety." Some please explain to me how kissing a student on the cheek is "constructive effort". 2. There are a number of other publications which clearly indicate that the type of behavior Mark displayed are in fact inappropriate.

Quietted

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 7:28 p.m.

@Sam Smith The only thing hurting is this article and its lack of true insight into the issue. All this article has done is create gossip within the community, something that's hurting everyone involved in this case. The general public does NOT have enough information to sentence Chris Mark just after reading this article. All sides of the issue are not represented in great enough detail for anybody to make that judgment.

Sam Smith

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 7:07 p.m.

Is it healthy to tell students that "my life is in your hands?" in Mr. Mark's viral support request? What will happen to them if things don't go the way they want? Someone please talk to the man! How many more must he hurt?

Sam Smith

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 5:58 p.m.

I'm not judging him either. His email is disturbing and the kiss however innocent crossed a healthy boundary. Whatever time passed and I found out about them I would report it to the school because I would not want this happening to some other vulnerable student by any professional teacher or care giver. This is not treatment for someone feeling suicidal. If it is please let me know with credible experts.

Sam Smith

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 5:16 p.m.

@aaquestion Thank you I was not aware the mother gave permission. My son or daughter going out with a teacher--it would depend. Did this teacher let me know my son/daughter was feeling suicidal? Does this teacher have training to help my son/daughter for suicide? Does the school and his wife know about this? I do add wife because of the healthy boundary issue. Make it moral or not. This is not a matter of secrecy what I do so in good faith I would want the school and wife know OK at least the school because of privacy protection. Could I live or forgive myself if I was the only one who tried helping someone and he/she ended up killing him-/her-self? Probably not because I'd always question if I had got this person more qualified help if it'd save his/her life. So I'd let the school or least a suicide expert assist me. So many are hurt by this. I wonder if there is a middle road to this too and yet part of me is very upset by his unprofessional behavior if it is true what A2.com reported. What about his children? What about the students of Huron? Was this an isolated lapse of judgement or could it lead to something more dangerous and not necessarily by Mr. Mark. Sometimes the worst offenders look and act very normal--look at Bundy, Gacy and Dalmer. Does this open the door for further abuse --again not necessarily by Mr. Mark but by someone else? Will there be better mental health services for students? What can we all learn from this and change for the better?

aaquestion

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 3:56 p.m.

@Sam Smith, Actually, I would like to add on to your question. How would you feel comfortable to give permission to a 40ish male teacher to be out alone with your daughter? Based on the report, the mother gave her permission 5 years ago and no complaint was filed 5 years ago. Now is a mess. Students get hurt, parents get hurt, people involved get hurt. I am with Robyn; since I don't get the full story, I don't want to judge. I just hope things resolved quickly and get students back to 'normal.'

Nancy

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 3:53 p.m.

Here is the message from Mr. Mark on the support Mr. Mark facebook event urging students to 'go viral'.... message from Mr. Mark: Parents/Students/Alumni, If I have ever made a positive impact on your life, my union advises that you MUST respond, in writing, if you feel my termination would be unjustified. PLEASE EMAIL TO: ***** My life is in your hands. '05-'07 are especially important. Please go viral. The time to act is NOW!

Sam Smith

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 3:51 p.m.

And before anyone blames the student's mother again give her the same "wonderful" that is given to Mr. Mark. This woman has (like most parents try) sacrificed many things and loves her daughter very much. She is not the villain. Many parents have teens and adults that are mentally ill or are recovering. It's too easy to blame the parent who is hurting just as much if not more from these things as his/her child. The mother may not have been perfect but find me the perfect parent. So back to the question of how you would feel/think if a 40 year old wonderful teacher "helped" your daughter/son age 17 (are parents still legally responsible? can a 17 year old sign consent if unstable?)) with some serious as suicide (and had no training for this) and did not let you know about it. He wrote an email like Mr. Mark did (motives not clear) to your son/daughter, kissed him/her on the cheek, took him/her out for a meal alone--kept this secret from you and the suicide ideation from you the parent? If Mr. Mark took this student to a credible counselor for suicide let this be known. If Mr. Mark took it upon himself to treat this student's suicide ideation in this way find me one credible person who supports this approach. Suicide is very serious and that is what is being claimed as a fact for Mr. Mark's motive--he is going by this. I'm not judging--I am very concerned that the concept of suicide, family and mental health issues are ignored here.

Sam Smith

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 3:05 p.m.

Question to all: How would you feel/think if a 40 year old man "helped" your daughter age 17 with something as serious as suicide and not talk to you (her parent) about it? Forget the time of 5 years, the age of consent, etc. I wonder what psychologists and psychiatrists would say as well.

Sam Smith

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 2:37 p.m.

@Speechless Facing consequences does not necessarily mean losing his/her job. I'm wrong sometimes and even I have to face consequences of any decision I make good, bad or otherwise. Everyone eventually faces consequences even if they think they got away with something. Again, what if the student did kill herself after only seeing Mr. Mark? One could argue but she didn't kill herself--but that's not answering the question.

robyn

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 1:43 p.m.

So your educational background makes you an expert about each and ever individual's thought process and motivations? Me thinks you have studied yourself into a 'god complex' if you falsely believe that you now know what lies in the hearts of all men based upon what you read. I have stated that I neither support not condemn Mr. Mark. I do not know him personally. I do not know the young woman he is dating personally. What I do know is that some teachers form closer bonds to their students. You can say it doesn't happen - but I see it all of the time in my own kids' education. ESPECIALLY with teachers that they have for a period of years. I can see how those bonds would become more of a 'peer' type bond as the kids progress into the latter years of high school. This type of peer relationship also has much to do with the maturity of the student. I have met adults that are as immature as a teenager - and I have met teenagers that are far more mature than many of their peers. So you can't make a blanket judgement about people you do not know. I respect your opinion based upon what you are studying in school, however - like so many subjects in school - real life experience can change the black and white issues addressed in a classroom to more of a grey area that has no iron clad solution or resolution. Sometimes things are just subject to the events and individuals involved. They must be based on just those events and individuals. As a STUDENT - majoring in social work - you will no doubt find that once you begin to apply what you have learned at school - there will be situations that just aren't as clear as you once thought they were. It's called life and coupled by experience - it can be a far better learning tool than any book or classroom discussion. I understand why you think the way you do. I probably have decades of life experience that have changed my attitudes about things. When I was in college - I really thought I knew it all too. You will eventually find that having knowledge and being able to apply it are two different things. Especially when dealing with people, the complexities are far too vast for any one issue to be the same for all concerned or any one answer/solution to fit each and every situation - no matter how similar. What I find most concerning is that while you disagree with my thoughts on this subject: the issues are too complex to be determined and there is too much information left unanswered - I am simply not prepared to make a judgement upon this teacher based upon what has been written in the article or by other posters. Yet - you can condemn someone for things you have no personal knowledge of along with anyone who disagrees with you. I certainly do hope that you find a way to balance justice with compassion and understanding before you become active in your chosen field of study.

Matt Cooper

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 1:10 p.m.

To put it in another very similar way, I am a social work major at EMU. I am considering going into counseling as a professional career choice. Let's say I go into private practice. Further, let's say I am counseling a woman that is potentially suicidal. I am very concerned that she may well hurt herself. Then, at the end of a particularly, painful counseling session, as she's leaving my office, I give her a pat on the hand, followed by a kiss on the cheek. Later that night I just can't sleep, worrying about whether or not she will hurt herself. So I send her an email saying that I love her, my son loves her, lots of people love her, etc. I then take her out to lunch one day instead of our usual counseling session. What would you say then? Would you still defend the behavior? It's the same thing. The power structure is exactly the same in both types of relation ships. Bottom line: If Mark was so concerned with the safety and well being of this supposedly suicidal student, he knew the proper protocols for dealing with the situation, and he knew those protocols did NOT involve him becoming personally involved. He should have walked the student, during school hours, to the school psychologists office and let the professionals deal with it. For him to do anything else invites controversy.

Matt Cooper

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 12:58 p.m.

@robyn: First of all, the thing about the burglar. You missed my point entirely, which, after reading your posts on this and other subjects, surprises me not. I wasn't saying anything other than that I am sick of reading Mark's supporters going on and on about what a wonderful man and wonderful teacher he is, and how because he's such a wonderful man and wonderful teacher he couldn't possibly have done anything wrong. EVER! To wit, the comments by alex chmiel, in which he states "I personally know why, she didn't trust anyone other than him because of the way he works on a personal level with students. In my life time of school, I have NEVER seen a teacher better than Mr. Mark". So, Mr Chmiel thinks that Mark was the best teacher ever and was there when these situations happened with the former student? Doubtful since Mr' Chmiel was in the 5th grade at that time. Or does he have direct personal knowledge of what Mark and his now 23 year old former student girlfriend do and did together? Secondly, all school systems, including the Ann Arbor Public Schools have protocols in place to deal with suicidal students. They also employ degreed and licensed professionals that are trained to deal with suicidal students, among many other social and academic issues. And to my knowledge Mark was never trained in any way to deal with situations such as this. But even then, there are professional codes of conduct in play that Mark clearly crossed. No teacher should EVER kiss any student in any way (on the cheek or otherwise) under any circumstances at any time. No teacher should ever take a student out to lunch on personal time even if only for the reason that it would appear to be inapropriate. This crap about Mark having more of a peer relationship is bunk! There is inherently a built-in power structure in the teacher/student relationship and you can't get me to believe for a second that Mark didn't realise this and understand that it would, at the very least, give the appearance of an inappropriate relationship for him to conduct hmself otherwise. Whether or not Mark had sex with a student is not necessarily the point. The point is that he made some serious mistakes in judgement that could, and in my opinion should, affect his career in teaching forever more. And what makes those mistakes in judgement even worse is that he was a teacher for 9 years and knew the school districts position, he knew the professional ethics involved and knew he could get in serious trouble for his actions/relationship with this student. And no, there are no grey areas when it comes to a teacher kissing a student (again, on the cheek or otherwise). It is totally impermissible. Mark knew this and chose to do it anyway.

robyn

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 10:54 a.m.

@ Matt Cooper: There is too much grey area for anyone - but those directly involved or with intimate knowledge - to make a determination as to whether of not Chris Mark is guilty of anything. The article did not state that a sexual or romantic relationship began while the woman (whom he currently has a romantic relationship with) was still a student. There are people who have stated that they know the person and have made it clear that this did not happen. That is a major point in all of this. While many people, based upon their own unique and individual experiences and beliefs, feel that Chris Mark 'overstepped the boundaries'by becoming too involved with his students on a personal level - that does not prove him guilty of anything but allowing a more 'equal/peer' teaching style. Apparently this style has been beneficial to some students while others did not like it. The fact that his attorney asked the Board to 'find some middle ground' is not an admission of guilt - outright or implied. It simply means that the attorney understands that there is a grey area regarding ethics - meaning that the dilemma is due to the fact that border between right and wrong is blurred. This is frequently a problem when human interaction involves the necessity of making choices and decision based upon trust, compassion, friendship and even love. In this case - there are so many emotional and personal factors involved - none of us and probably not even the Board will be able to ever come to a clear and fair decision. You mentioned the guilt of a burglar - being caught stealing for the first time. What if that burglar was stealing bread and milk to feed his hungry children? Is he still a common criminal - or did he do something wrong in order to make something even worse right? No offering alternative suggestions - the burglar had been through his options - they do not work for him or they are not an option he can pursue.

Steve Pepple

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 7:22 a.m.

A comment containing unsubstantiated allegations about the performance of certain other school employees has been removed.

Speechless

Mon, Dec 20, 2010 : 12:07 a.m.

"... What if another employee decides they need to help a student but this time it doesn't have a fairy tale ending...." Judge each situation separately. "... Let's say the Board takes all the nuances into consideration and says 'well, his heart was in the right place, we'll let this slide.'..." "Letting this slide" does not necessarily follow from "taking all nuances into consideration." How about a temporary suspension? Maybe have Mr. Mark do an unpaid "time out" for a year, followed by something comparable to probation status upon return to the classroom? I don't pretend to know what an optimal resolution might look like, but it doesn't seem at all hard to come up with options other than the extremes of total exoneration and termination. "... the board may only have a few choices, given that the Teachers are all covered under a union contract...." Dang! Those unions!... I'll wait for a union rep to show up and speak to this.

Matt Cooper

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 10:32 p.m.

@alex: "Despite Mr. Mark's peck on the cheek toward the student, your not seeming to grasp the fact that it was a sympathetic gesture of support and kindness. People think its an abomination that he spent time with her out of school while she was still attending Huron, people aren't understanding that she was suicidal!!!!!!" And what, exactly, makes you think, or better yet, made Mark think that he was the most qualified person to handle a suicidal student? What makes either of you think that Mark giving said student a kiss on the cheek and an email saying the things it said was the most prudent way to handle a suicidal student? Is he a psychologist? Suicide prevention counselor? What special training does he have that would enable him to deal sucessfully with a suicidal student? I don't knonw why you are so passionate in your defense of Mark, but you need to take an honest and reality-based look at these questions and seek out truthful answers. Until you do this you will be blind to anything other than the version of the story you want to believe whether it's truthful or not.

Matt Cooper

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 10:25 p.m.

Two things really bother me about this. 1. I am tired of people spewing on and on ad nauseum about how even if Mark did something wrong, he only did it this one time, and that nobody else has come forward to accuse him of anything inappropriate in his nine years of service to the Ann Arbor public school, and that that fact should allow him some leeway if he did do something wrong. Get it straight: the fact that this might be the first-ever complaint does not, in any way shape or form have any bearing on whether he did or did not have an inappropriate relationship or conduct with this particular student. That's like saying of a first time burglar "Well, he hasn't burgled before so he couldn't have done this burglary, either". The logic there just doesn't work. 2. It bugs me that his lawyer should ask for "trustees to find some middle ground between proceeding with tenure charges and doing nothing." If his lawyer really did ask for this "middle ground", to me thats as good as admitting guilt. And if he's admitting guilt, he needs to be severely punished (ie; losing his job and never being allowed to teach again). If he did nothing wrong, and truly believes in his own innocence, why ask for leniency? Why ask for some "middle ground" to be found in terms of punitive action? Whether or not Mark is guilty of anything, I don't know. But from what I've read and the comments I've heard his atty. make, the whole story, from his end, sounds a bit too fishy to me.

xinu

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 8:51 p.m.

this must be the hottest story in ann arbor in years, it has gotten more than 100 comments in just a few days since the story was published and the counter keeps cricking. even michigan football news rarely attracts 100 comments. my observation: most commenters seem to have short circuits in the brains; they jump straight into simple conclusions. i see few commenters who are thoughtful and keeping a cool head (robyn, speechless, CountyKate, musicrat... to name a few cool heads). do most of us have special neural pathways that run something like this? male teacher + female student => sexual relationship suicidal student + desire to help => school counselor okay, i am not for or against the accused teacher, mark, but a2.com/news has reported only the school administrators' side of the story and there is none so far on the teacher's side that might give some insight. yes, i get that the teacher denied the allegations and he is a popular teacher well-respected by many students and their parents. can a2.com dig deeper and shed some light on the story from the teacher's perspective? as a few readers commented, i also want to know why accusing the teacher now 5 years after the problem had allegedly occurred, and if the school board's investigation was thorough and fair to the both parties. it truly amazes me that, when there are so few known facts about this particular case, people come up with many different interpretations of the few known facts, only to settle on one of the 3 outcomes: fire the teacher, let him return to the school, settle on some middle ground. we have no other ways than to fill the holes based, inevitably, on one's own lived experiences and imaginations, which are subjective. each mind ends up creating different reality. a truth is, realities are inexhaustibly rich and beyond a reach and understanding of us who are simply reading news stories and readers' comments. only the teacher, the female student involved, and her mother would know the truth. the school administrators, trustees, and particularly the rest of us casual observers many of whom most likely are just enjoying a "real" reality show unfolding in front of us, will probably never know the truth. but remember, reality shows are meant to be watched from safe homes. in this particular case involving a popular (and probably talented) teacher, he is now being accused of the actions he took 5 years ago possibly out of kindness, and if he is really dismissed as it seems likely, he will probably not be able to find another teaching job in any other school districts. his career and life will be destroyed. i am inclined to sympathize with him. i appreciate the difficulty the school board has faced in the decision making. i hope the trustees have reached the decision only after very careful examinations of the evidence from the both parties, and with long deliberations. and, thank you, speechless, after 2 days of silence, for posting very thoughtful comments again. xinu

DonBee

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 8:06 p.m.

@Speechless - I will let the lawyers weigh in, but the board may only have a few choices, given that the Teachers are all covered under a union contract. It may be that the only choices they have are to either let him return to teaching or pursue the tenure charges. None of us know what has gone on over the last 5 months that Mr. Mark has spent on the payroll of the district, but not in the classroom. We probably will never know. We don't know what part the union has played in getting to this point they are not talking. We do know that the union has fought for their members in every prior incident involving a teacher. So we do not know if there is a reasonable path available or not. We don't know what has or has not been offered to date. What we do know is that we are out the services of the teacher, the pay for the teacher, lawyer fees, and pay for the substitute. In short, so far no one has won anything and I am not sure the is a winning path available for anyone. Even if Mr. Mark returns to the classroom, how many parents will trust him in the future? We don't know the answer to this, just like we don't know the whole story to date, and never will.

ViSHa

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 6:13 p.m.

Let's say the Board takes all the nuances into consideration and says "well, his heart was in the right place, we'll let this slide". What if another employee decides they need to help a student but this time it doesn't have a fairy tale ending? Will how they handle this be able to be used against them in the future? Or, what if this current relationship sours and the woman decides to sue the school (is their a statute of limitations?). I will say that it does seem strange that the Board is going all out on this but did nothing concerning the principal who broke district policy and state law.

Speechless

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 5:45 p.m.

"... What about healthy boundaries? We should not have any? Bottom line: If Mr. Mark did something wrong he should face the consequences as we all face consequences if we do something wrong. If Mr. Mark did not do something wrong he'll get his job back...." All right, let's repeat that key phrase more time:  middle ground. The odd notion that Ann Arbor's school board must either give Mr. Mark full exoneration, or else permanently punt him onto the sidewalk, is just fantasy. A logical and considerate approach to this controversy would necessarily have the board openly evaluate a range of possible responses when making its judgment, with full exoneration and tenure charges representing only the far extremes of all possible measures. Instead, in the handling of this matter, the school board has shown itself incapable of coming to terms with complexity, ethical ambiguity, and social nuance. It has simply failed.

nightstars

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 2:34 p.m.

Good afternoon, y'all. I'm an 07 Huron grad, and here's my two cents. Several people have mentioned how, by virtue of working with students for longer than a semester or a year, personal relationships can form. This makes sense. But, I'd like to ask, what (if any) contact did she have with support staff? School counselors, psychologists, etc...people who ARE hired to do this sort of work? I understand that it's hard to talk about personal matters with someone you don't feel comfortable with. So perhaps, hindsight being 20/20, what could the school have done? When I attended, each grade level had two counselors, divided by students' last names. These professionals would stay with the class for four years. I'm guessing this was so that students could develop that comfortable bond, necessary for honest discussion. For my class year, 2007, there was a "good" counselor and a "bad" one. I was fortunate enough to be assigned to the "good" one. The "good" one was perceived by students to be more approachable,understanding, caring, respectful, etc. Even if they weren't assigned to her, students frequently tried to make appointments with the "good" one instead. I don't recall who the counselors were for 05 (06?) and how they stood with the students of that year. I do hope she was able to talk to other staff members than Mr.Mark, simply because no one should take on another's depression alone. It is too easy to be overwhelmed. Also, I recall that at Clague, we had daily time with our "advisories" (homeroom) that helped us to get to know teachers in a non-academic, yet approiate, setting. We didn't have that at the high school level, but I think it's even more important there. May fewer and fewer students slip through the cracks every year.

Sam Smith

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 2:21 p.m.

@Speechless Why are you making this out to be a moralistic condemnation? Sure, some people are doing that but what about professional objective standards? What about healthy boundaries? We should not have any? Bottom line: If Mr. Mark did something wrong he should face the consequences as we all face consequences if we do something wrong. If Mr. Mark did not do something wrong he'll get his job back.

Speechless

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 1:08 p.m.

From further above: "... I cant believe how ignorant some people can be... You don't even know the whole story...why judge now?..." Well then, welcome to the more dysfunctional features of the adult world.... For a certain minority, it's all about jumping at the opportunity to climb into a pulpit (i.e., this discussion thread), where one can freely spew a message of fire & brimstone to anyone who will listen. There's a cathartic release, or maybe a certain euphoria, that they'll experience when getting the chance to act out internal anger through open condemnation of some other individual — particularly a person labeled by society as having questionable integrity. I strongly doubt that people here who render crystal-clear condemnations have any real interest in the full facts of this situation — whatever those are. The myriad details surrounding Mr. Mark's situation appear rather complex, and they call out for nuance in both understanding and resolution. It's clear from the back-and-forth commentary here that a good deal in the way of background information needs to be carefully weighed and evaluated. Full social context and timeline are important. Contextual distinctions have been created by the nature of the music classroom in an Ann Arbor public school, the dynamics of family relationships gone awry, the very practical inclination of students to seek counsel from those whom they already trust, and so on. For those who genuinely care, all this evades any cookie-cutter, cut & dried solution. Yet the school board, in displaying a capacity to abdicate ethical responsibility, has sought to simplistically play its decision as a completely black & white matter of choosing between Good or Evil. Our society's conservative religious heritage has long encouraged this tendency toward heartless, ill-informed indulgence in old-fashioned, Old Testament damnation. It's a mindset allowing no middle ground, only the purity of Heaven or the raging fires of Hell, and it has, unfortunately, long permeated secular society. The culture metaphorically critiqued in The Scarlet Letter hasn't completely gone away. Yet even Dante understood something about the utility of creating a 'middle ground' with his imagined nine circles of Hell, as described in The Divine Comedy. In the much less culturally conservative regions of western Europe, people tend to think we're sometimes kinda nuts over here on this side of the pond.

ViSHa

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 9:25 a.m.

I understand the suicide angle of this story. I would like to know, possibly from other high school teachers, is it common practice to kiss a student on the cheek if they are feeling down or upset? (a peck is a kiss right??) Also, per the email, is it common for teachers to refer to their relationship with students as "matters of the heart"? I doubt that this girl was the only depressed teen in high school in all of ann arbor---is this the typical way for teachers to handle it in AAPS?

Sam Smith

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 8:58 a.m.

Again, what if this student killed herself after just going to Mr. Mark?

Sam Smith

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 8:47 a.m.

If someone was suicidal and came up to me because I was the only one he/she trusted, I will encourage that person to seek professional help with a expert in that area and not indulge in a god complex. I can still be supportive of that person and not abandon him/her. Suicidal ideation is very serious. If I were to treat it like I knew what to do for it that would be taking it lightly and dismissing the needs of the person. No one person can do it all for someone else nor should he/she try. If you really love and care about someone you encourage and support healthy relationships with other people not be a control freak or know it all. Mr. Mark missed the mark.

Doug

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 4:46 a.m.

I think an important aspect of this case we are all forgetting is that fact that the young woman was suicidal at the time. It seems to me that the reason Mr. Mark went so far out of his way for this one student (the e-mails, dinner, etc) was because he was trying to save a life. Considering the connection Mr. Mark develops with his students constantly over the years, it should be safe to say that Mr. Mark cared for her like he did his other students if not more. Now let me ask you all this: if somebody you cared about came up to YOU specifically saying he/she was feeling suicidal, or if YOU were the only person who noticed he/she seemed suicidal, would you send that person you care about AWAY or try to help him/her? In that moment, would you think about yourself and about keeping your job safe or would you want to help him/her as best you can? Say you decided to send him/her to the trained professional but they didn't see anything wrong with him/her and didn't do anything more, or maybe you didn't see any positive change in him/her? I'm not saying other faculty members wouldn't try to help (though I guess it could be a possibility, however small the chances may be); I'm just saying what if something like this happened to you. Wouldn't you still do all you could to prevent him/her from ending his/her life? What I see here is a teacher who did all he could to save a student's life and succeeded, but since there isnt a direct correlation found between his help and her nonexistent suicide, he's being condemned for actions that appear inappropriate in normal circumstances.

David

Sun, Dec 19, 2010 : 3:26 a.m.

@Alex You're saying that even if we show you proof that what Mr. Mark did was illegal you would still support him. Keep an open mind, do not blindly follow Mr. Mark.

robyn

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 11:32 p.m.

@ Amy: Thanks for the response. That's not necessarily the way things are here in our district. Many of the teachers have kids in the school - so our kids form friendships that brings them into the teacher's lives on a different personal level. When I was in school I worked in the councelor's office for a few years - the school psychologist used to take me out to lunch every couple of weeks - along with a teacher I used to help out (tutoring her students in reading and math). When I got into high school - one of my teachers was the husband of the school psychologist - at that point I used to baby sit for them on weekends. They also knew my parents quite well. By today's standards - that out of school interaction would be frowned upon. I always got a birthday and Christmas present from them. Maybe it's just how much the world has changed. We have to be skeptical of everyone's intentions. It's pretty sad when teachers have to feel that they need to protect themselves and be distant form their students so that no one can think their caring or compassion toward a student is laden with ulterior motives. It's also a sad state of affairs when people automatically assume the worst of people.

glacialerratic

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 11:01 p.m.

Music programs in Ann Arbor high schools seem to enjoy an unusual amount of autonomy from administrative oversight. These programs can be very insular. Perhaps more effective monitoring and mentoring would have prevented this very serious dereliction of professional responsibility. Also, perhaps students could be taught what an acceptable relationship with an adult teacher, mentor, counselor, or supervisor looks like. From reading some of these posts, it appears that students would benefit from learning how to recognize when boundaries are being crossed by adults who they expect to trust, like, and respect, and to know what to do if this happens.

Marie

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 10:58 p.m.

As a high school student, I have mature friendships with many of my teachers. I have experienced and can imagine situations where I may choose to go out to coffee with them or have a private conversation with them during school. And that's maturity; being able to conduct one's self in an appropriate manner with all individuals. In fact, some of the best teachers ARE the ones that a student can befriend and build a personal relationship with. However, many high school students and some teachers simply don't operate on that level of maturity. Also, I do know that many music teachers at high schools are involved in or even run additional music programs outside of school. In Saline, this is very much so the case. Because of this, many music students have pre-existing frienships with teachers before they even enter that intructor's class. Music tends to be far more personal a class than other academic classes. I'm not condoning Mr. Mark's alleged behavior at all; I'm merely providing some neutral background from a high school student. If proof arises that he did indeed have a romantic/sexual relationship with a student, then by all means, fire him. There is no shortage of passionate conductors looking for an ensemble to guide. I personally know of several talented musicians who will soon graduate from U of M with teaching degrees. Isn't Michigan trying to keep college grads in local jobs? But hey, that's another story entirely...

Alex

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 9:54 p.m.

@Sam Smith, I personally have not hung out with him one on one, but I've attended out of school events that just had those students and Mr. Mark. I would not care if Mr. Mark hung out with my sister one on one, she's 12. My sister has met him at past concerts and is supporting him, as long as my parents, and entire family.

Alex

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 9:47 p.m.

@Davidian, The relationship was not sexual until years after she graduated, so who cares, she was of age and Mr. Mark and her both made their own decisions. Would you rather send her to a random school counselor that she doesn't feel trustful with, then increase her chance of her killing herself, seems sick to me. Mr. Mark's relationship with the girl in high school was nothing but a mere supportive gesture, just like the peck on the cheek. Most people seem like they are reading over the part that she was suicidal. What if she asked you to come see her personally or something, would you tell her that you'd be stepping out of your boundaries as a teacher? When he took her out to a dinner, and when he gave her a peck on the cheek, it was a MERE sympathetic gesture, which most people aren't understanding, someone stated in a recent comment that people watch television shows every day about a cop, doctor, etc, bending the rules some how so that that gesture can benefit someone else, those exact people watching those television shows praise the person who bent the rules as a "hero". But in reality people like that are scorned because "boundaries" are broken. Mr. mark broke no laws what so ever, if you can send me a link to any laws or agreements that were broken by Mr. Mark, I will look over them. But my support will continue to always stay for Mr. Mark.

Sam Smith

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 9:39 p.m.

@Alex Did you hang out with Mr. Mark one on one? Would you like this if he did what he did to this student to your sister?

Alex

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 9:22 p.m.

@DonBee, I'm not saying that teachers and students should have romantic relations, and the girl Mr. Mark was spending time with wasn't under age, she was 18. Anyway, I do see what you are saying but I belive that teachers should be able to have good relations with their students and "hang out" with them outside of schools, they form bonds which is good.

DonBee

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 8:35 p.m.

@Alex Chmiel - Before you go into the classroom as a teacher and start dealing with minors as an adult. I would suggest you look up the state laws. I think you will find that you need to know about what is and is not legal before you end up in trouble. If a Dentist or a Doctor sent that kind of a letter to a patent who was underage how would you feel? How about your cub scout leader? You have not been through training and probably have not studied the law. I hope you do before you make a decision on how you would or would not do something. A little research on the web will show you how some situations have gone wrong. Not always because the teacher really crossed the line - they just got a little too close. I hope if you want to teach you do, I think you would be good, based on your posts.

Alex

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 8:14 p.m.

@Amy Lesemann, So your telling me that you think its wrong for teachers to become good friends with students, and to treat them as exact equals instead of just students? I'd treat my students the same way as Mr. Mark did.

Alex

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 8:07 p.m.

@Sam Smith, there was never any abuse in the girl and Mr. Mark's relationship at all. @robyn, your making extremely good points aswell.

Sam Smith

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 7:57 p.m.

Teachers are hired to teach not be best friends with students. There are ways of caring for another person without crossing boundaries. A lot of people with boundary issues are really only thinking of themselves and essentially making it all about them not who they purport to care about. This is very sad because so many are hurt by this. Mr. Mark has taught a lesson about boundaries. Is he going to teach a lesson in accountability now? I'm sorry but Ann Arbor has not choice to do something about this otherwise it just gives the green light for teacher abuse. If Mr. Mark is as gifted as reported he will be able to find another job.

Charlie Zhang

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 6:58 p.m.

@ robyn You bring up an excellent point. The way you put it... well, it's just very easy to see how a music teacher's relationship with his/her students is different from that of a normal teacher. A student might have the same music teacher for four years in a row, whereas he/she would only have a "normal" teacher for a semester or two. As a result, the student and the teacher would be significantly closer and friendlier with each other than expected. I've never thought about it that way before, but thanks for bringing it up! Someone should have brought up this point at the board meeting.

Charlie Zhang

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 6:52 p.m.

@ Those wondering about Christopher Mark's girlfriend... I happen to know the girlfriend personally, and I've heard her side of the story. If what she says is true, and I have no reason to believe that it isn't, then she was no longer his student when they engaged in a relationship. Perhaps Chris overstepped his bounds as a teacher in becoming too friendly with his students, but if nothing sexual occured, then his conduct shouldn't call for such a severe punishment. I would recommend a temporary suspension and a fine at the most, but destroying someone's career over something so obviously blown out of proportion is not the right thing to do.

Quietted

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 5:42 p.m.

If Mr. Mark's girlfriend was taken advantage of, why doesn't she speak out? Is it normal for one to stay silent? I don't think people are thinking reasonably-- both were consenting adults in this relationship which still holds strong after 5 years. The complaint was brought up by the girlfriend's mother 5 years later. Not by the girlfriend herself. Legally, this relationship is acceptable.

Amy Lesemann

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 3:56 p.m.

@robyn...I have commented before. I am a teacher, and as a reading specialist who works with gifted and talented (not in the A2 district- there are no g&t classes in the A2 schools), but at St. Thomas the Apostle Elementary School on Elizabeth Street. I also work with remedial students. So I often work with students from the time they arrive, in first grade, until they graduate, in eighth. We do, in fact, form very close bonds, just as close as Mr. Mark forms with his students. I do not "hang out" with them; I do have THEIR PARENTS over for dinner, because the parents are my peer group. The students are not. I do not kiss them on the cheek. They are not my facebook friends; I have told their parents I do not facebook students -ever. I do not go out to dinner with students one on one; when I was the advisor to BackTalk Magazine at Thurston Elementary, I had groups of students over to my house, but other adults were there as well - I would not have a single student over one on one. At St. Thomas, we are also trained that it is for THE TEACHER'S protection that we should not interact in that way with students - because unfortunately we may have the unbalanced student who makes an unjustified accusation against us. It has happened that a student who is being sexually abused by a parent, but cannot bring him or herself to say that, will, in an attempt to get help, accuse someone else of the crime. We professionals must be aware of our roles, our limits, and our responsibilities. It is so sad that Mr. Mark, a truly gifted and inspiring music instructor, lost sight of the limits of his role, and his responsibilities to get the student help from other sources - as frustrating and difficult as that may be. I do feel bad for him. My daughters do regret losing his talents. But just because this event is in the rear view mirror DOES NOT MEAN he is not culpable.

ViSHa

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 1:12 p.m.

you bring up an excellent point robyn--it is a bit unfair to the woman to have her personal past issues out for all to see, especially knowing she had been fragile in the past. hopefully, she is stronger now to withstand the scrutiny. How long of a procedure is this bringing up tenure charges? Is there a typical pattern on how these things go?

robyn

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 12:52 p.m.

@ Alex. I'm not really on anyone's 'side'. I don't know this Mr. Mark personally. I can only go by what has been posted here by the people who do know him. It seems to me that he was not only a teacher to many of the students - but also a friend. That said - the issues that don not seem to have been answered are: Did the relationship Mr. Mark and the young woman (and yes - she is a woman now) have now become "romantic" while she was a student. I do not see any evidence of that here, in the article OR in the emails. Why has this become an issue now? Years after it supposedly took place? While I do not know the mother and what relationship she had or now has with her daughter - I have to admit that I do question her motives, especially considering that her daughter is now an adult and has been involved with Chris Mark for a period of years. The issues (which are extremely personal and have to potential to cause this young woman extreme grief 5 years after they took place) being made public really do not sit well with me. As a parent - I would be mortified for my child to have her emotional difficulties displayed for the public to gawk upon. This is probably the creepiest part of this mess... I have pointed out that the relationships and bonds that can form between instructors and student in the schools' music departments are different than other teacher/student relationships - just due to the period of years that these instructors and students are together. While some teachers have weighed in - they are, for the most part female and not one has stated that they were in a position to have workied with a student on a daily basis over a period of 4 - 6 - 8 years. I would think that anyone who spends that amount of time with certain people (students or co-workers) on a regular basis would really get to know them, more so than people they spend far less time with. Finally - there has been NOTHING presented - by the article OR posters that have stated that the relationship Chris Mark has with this former student is a 'pattern of behavior' - there have been no other reports of his being 'romantically' involved with a student/s. The ONLY pattern that has been that this teacher was closer to many of his students than the average teacher - but after years of being with them that's sort of natural. I just hope that those who are going to make the decision about Mr. Mark do so looking at the issues objectively rather than personally.

ViSHa

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 12:44 p.m.

sorry David, i mixed up the names of the high schools in one post. i appreciate your thoughtful post with a differing opinion to show that, like any teacher, Mr. Mark is not necessarily beloved by all. You bring up some interesting points without making sweeping generalizations.

ViSHa

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 11:10 a.m.

Erd, i think you make a lot of good points and appreciate them especially knowing you are not a "fanboy". I am on the fence concerning dismissal, but I do wonder if parents with middle school music students going to Huron will be wary of interactions their child would have with Marks should he stay. Will everything be viewed with a microscope and all actions be dissected for inappropriateness? Will AAPS require this teacher's "passionate" personality to be reined in and would he still be an effective teacher if he needed to change this? Lots of questions....

David

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 10:58 a.m.

I need to clarify a few things. Mr. Mark is from HURON not PIONEER. Secondly, the article is incorrectly reporting this female as having graduated in 2005, in fact she was class of 2006. I graduated from Huron in 2005, and was in orchestra for three years. I actually quit orchestra before my senior year, and a lot of other seniors did as well. I believe that only three class of 2005 students were in orchestra their senior years. I cannot speak for others, but Mr. Mark was the reason I quit. Some of you will quit if he's no longer there, but realize that there were some of us that quit because he was there. He was not professional in my opinion, there were moments when he was immature, and he was not a great conductor. I don't think he inspired much passion in us. Many commenters have spoke of all the accolades Mr. Mark has brought the Huron orchestra; however, Huron hasn't won a Grammy Signature award since 2005. They had won them in 2001, 2002, 2003, and 2005, most of those before Mr. Mark became conductor of the Huron orchestra. A five year lull in Grammy Signature awards? I realize that there could be other things going on with the Huron Music Dept that could be causing this, but I have no idea what it is as I'm no longer affiliated. I was in the same section as the female in question, and although I didn't see any improper behavior between the two of them, I know that she was incredibly vulnerable, and as someone said previously, a wounded gazelle. To take advantage of such a person, when he was already in a position of power, is an unbelievable lack of judgment. How often do you hear a teacher use the words "wrath I will bring" with a student? That in of itself shows a teacher willing to terrify a student into doing what he would like. And I also agree, after watching that board of education meeting, the students speaking did Mr. Mark no favors. It matters not how passionate a conductor Mr. Mark can be, the Ann Arbor Board of Education's responsibility is to provide the students with teachers that they can learn from and trust. There clearly are other conductors out there that can provide comparable teaching ability, but without the predatory behavior.

Alex

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 10:32 a.m.

@ViSHa, No one told us to stand up for Mr. Mark. We are doing it ourselves because of what we believe is right. The case against him is completely ridiculous, the email's "leaked" paint Mr. Mark in a false light as someone trying to be romantic with a student. She was suicidal! Crossing over his "boundaries" as a teacher to protect a student from killing herself is an act of heroism. @erd, I agree with you except for the personally not liking Mr. Mark thing, and that his actions were at all inappropriate, but you make a great, great point and I hope the Board of Education sees things like you and I do.

erd

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 10:01 a.m.

As the parent of a former member of the Huron Orchestra I can say that I dislike Chris Mark personally, but also respect his ability as a teacher. That said, I find the action taken against him inappropriate. I do not approve of his conduct with students, but I also do not think that it rises to the level of dismissal, unless one is also to dismiss the supervisors who knew perfectly well that he was/is a man of strong emotions who expresses himself in powerfully emotional terms. Nothing in the messages quoted surprises me, and nothing in those messages, knowing the way that he relates to students, makes me think that there was any sexual suggestion or that a student who knew him well would think that this was the case. If the administration of Huron felt that this sort of communication was inappropriate it should have taken action years ago, or have counseled Chris Mark against expressing himself in this way and disciplined him if he did not do so. There is nothing in the record to suggest that the administration of Huron regarded Mark's persona (vividly on view at any orchestra event) as inappropriate. The relationship described in the News is between consenting adults. It is not the business of the School Board to regulate such relationships given the evidence that has been presented. It is the business of the School Board and the Huron Administration to ensure that a decent educational environment and competent teaching is provide for students. The Huron Administration and the AAPS Administration more generally are fully aware they employ counselors who do not know the names of the students with whom they work, and employ teachers who lack the ability to teach the courses they are assigned. While wasting time and money on what appears to be a frivolous complaint stemming from a deeply disturbed family situation, the School Board is failing to address issues that plainly do fall within its jurisdiction (and how far can we, as tax payers, trust a Board that is offering an irresponsibly high salary for an as yet not to be identified superintendent; it would be unkind to suggest that the Board has taken on this issue to suppress its failure to perform its basic fiduciary responsibility).

ViSHa

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 8:56 a.m.

@ alex: " I am a Sophomore and I assure you that Mr. Mark has done NOTHING wrong here." No disrespect, but you were what, in fifth grade five years ago? How can you assure anyone about what occurred at Pioneer five years ago? I also think you do MANY teachers a disservice by claiming any other teacher but Mr. Mark would laugh at a student's physical appearance. I am sorry that apparently in YOUR experience, you have only had uncaring, robotic teachers since kindergarten but I can assure YOU, that there are many caring teachers in AAPS, despite what you have experienced. I agree that the five year time span is suspect, but I also think it is shameful for, whomever's idea it was, to use passionate students to fight this battle for a grown man.

Davidian

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 8:40 a.m.

Alex, Having an intense and personal relationship with a vulnerable student--a relationship that turned sexual at some point--is simply not acceptable. That is the bottom line. The people you are criticizing are hardly ignorant. They are overwhelmingly concerned with the mental, physical, and spiritual safety of the students. They don't need to be one of Mark's students to understand the scenario. That seems to be the basis of your argument, and it isn't a good one. I know that he has inspired you and many other students, and this is really sad. I know how important music is to you (and me too). But bottom line: becoming a student's lover is NOT how you deal with someone that is suicidal. In fact, that is the classic abuse of power scenario. Relationships like these rarely turn out successful. In fact, they destroy bonds with friends and family, and often end in disaster. This has already happened. Take a look around and see the devastation that this has brought to you and everyone else involved. Only one person is responsible--that is Mark. The school board is trying to protect you and they are doing the right thing. Allowing him to keep his job is an implicit endorsement of this type of relationship. The next target of manipulation by a teacher may be you or someone close to you. This is what they are trying to prevent, because as you know all too well, there is never a happy ending.

Alex

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 2:17 a.m.

@Robyn, I'm sorry, I was angered on my last comment. I'm tired of hearing these ignorant people calling my only good teacher things such as "Creepy, Monster, etc. " I read your recent comment and see that you are on Mr. Mark's side? All I was saying is that, why continue on with your passion if the one who always inspired you is gone. That's how everyone else is looking at it. There's no orchestra teacher such as Mr. Mark, I can assure that by experience. But whatever happens, happens. If it ends negatively, we will protest peacefully.

Alex

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 2:17 a.m.

@Robyn, I'm sorry, I was angered on my last comment. I'm tired of hearing these ignorant people calling my only good teacher things such as "Creepy, Monster, etc. " I read your recent comment and see that you are on Mr. Mark's side? All I was saying is that, why continue on with your passion if the one who always inspired you is gone. That's how everyone else is looking at it. There's no orchestra teacher such as Mr. Mark, I can assure that by experience. But whatever happens, happens. If it ends negatively, we will protest.

Alex

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 2:11 a.m.

@robyn, The point I'm trying to make is that there isn't another orchestra teacher like Mr. Mark, so why bother even trying if he's gone. Why tried to put back together his years of work that all the people protesting against him, along with the board, destroyed. The even worse part, is that there isn't a district that will employ him. They'll think of him as a "Predator" or "Monster." Why put forth effort into something he took years to build but took only seconds to destroy? Maybe you should ask yourself why you would want to take away 100's of people's joy.

robyn

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 1:50 a.m.

@ Alex and the other students that have said they'd quit if Mr. Mark isn't there. He has spent so much time teaching you - would HE want you to quit? You should ask him - I'm betting he'd tell you not to.

Alex

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 1:25 a.m.

" Quietted Posted 1 day ago I feel that many people are taking this email out of context. By adding one's own assumed meaning of the text, one misinterprets the true message in this email, whatever it may have been. Also, we must consider the victim's story. Why would this woman not report the teacher if he was truly harassing her? Why would her mother bring up this case 5 years later? Why did she not report his actions at that time? Mr. Mark merely gave a troubled student the love her parents did not provide. It is sad to see that this is his downfall. " Exactly, I'm agreeing with you %100, the mother I believed accused him of an inappropriate relationship because she was "jealous" of the support and love he gave her daughter, that she did not provide. Very, very sad world we live in today. Like I said in previous comments, I will quit Orchestra after my 6 years of playing if Mr. Mark is terminated, there will be no joy in my weeks after weeks in high school, I will have nothing left to look forward to for the rest of my 2 and 1/2 years at Huron. And trust me, there are hundreds and hundreds of students at Huron who feel the same way...

Alex

Sat, Dec 18, 2010 : 1:10 a.m.

@annarbor28, you are completely missing the point. Despite Mr. Mark's peck on the cheek toward the student, your not seeming to grasp the fact that it was a sympathetic gesture of support and kindness. People think its an abomination that he spent time with her out of school while she was still attending Huron, people aren't understanding that she was suicidal!!!!!! Would you rather her kill herself rather than talk it out with a teacher? It looks like it! The peck on the cheek was nothing but a supportive gesture towards the girl. Now I bet you'll question, "Why didn't Mark send her to a counselor"? I personally know why, she didn't trust anyone other than him because of the way he works on a personal level with students. In my life time of school, I have NEVER seen a teacher better than Mr. Mark. Not one teacher I know at my school actually cares how the student is feeling. Here's a story. Last year as a freshman in Philharmonic Orchestra, it was a couple of weeks before a concert and I went to go get a haircut at a barber downtown. The barber wasn't paying attention and accidentally cut a large bald spot at the top of my forehead. I covered that bald spot for weeks until the day of the concert. I asked Mr. Mark if I could wear the had during the concert and he questioned why. I showed him the bald spot, stared for a minute, smiled, and said, "Cool dude." Now I can ASSURE you that any other teacher would BURST out with laughter. This is why we are all so supportive of Mr. Mark. Because no matter what the adults say, we know him better than you do obviously. I assure you that none of the adults protesting against Mr. mark will ever get to know him on like we do, because all that they have heard are accusations and rumors. They don't know the true story, they haven't put themselves in Mr. Mark's shoes. Honestly, what would YOU do if you were a teacher, you had a student that only trusted you, and was ready to end his/her life in one big swoop. Send her to the counselor's office and tell her/him you can't talk to them outside of school even though they requested it. That would definitely increase the student's thoughts of suicide. Not only that but it would also lead them into you losing their trust. @polochica2011, I will also quit Orchestra if Mr. Mark is fired. Do you adults who are against Mr. Mark see what you are doing to the students. Mr. Mark has built an empire of music over his past years of teaching and you are about to knock it down in one blow. It's pointless, there's no evidence of the former student and him having "romantic" relations while she was at Huron. Unless you can prove otherwise with VERY VERY strong evidence I highly suggest that the tenure charges are dropped immediately. Think what your doing for all the kids who want to become musicians in their very near future. Please, reconsider your opinions so we can all make this right.

annarbor28

Fri, Dec 17, 2010 : 11:28 p.m.

If Mr. Mark has this type of relationship with students (giving one a peck on the cheek, going out shopping and to lunch with another, etc), and it is allowed and accepted by the Ann Arbor Public School System, then it must be assumed that this is within the code of conduct for all teachers, aides, administrators and other employees. This will have to be the norm. So any married or unmarried employee, heterosexual or homosexual, who wishes to have a relationship with a student, suicidal or nonsuicidal, that goes as far as kissing on the cheek, and includes virtually any and all social activity, will have to be allowed to do so, if Mr. Marks is able to return to his job. Unless you want to restrict emails that involve love and pecks on the cheek for suicidal students only. Just saying. You all make the call. You will have to expect a lot more close fraternization between adults and children. You may not even be able to designate behavior according to the child's age. So your 8 year old may be getting lunch and pecks on the cheek by a 45 year old teacher, and this would be OK by the school system. Personally, I think it is a wrong standard for teachers, but maybe I'm just living in the 20th century.

musicrat

Fri, Dec 17, 2010 : 5:48 p.m.

@Mjc, it is impossible to deny that there are obviously many differing views on, in this one case, what behavior was "inappropriate" or "appropriate." Should the board fire someone because some people believe, subjectively, that his behavior was somehow inappropriate? There were no laws, and the lines he may have crossed are obviously drawn in very different places for very different people. Should we so quickly judge someone while trying to ignore our inherent differences? EVERY case needs to be treated as a special case with extraordinary circumstances. As speechless and some other have said, there IS a middle ground. In a case that is already so controversial, trying to separate the results into two extremes - him going back to teach and "continue to be a possible predator" or being fired and ending his career - will just make it worse. In addition... we really have so little information about all of this. We have some news articles that appear to be five years overdue coupled with public opinion and emotions. I will wait before I judge on something so important.

keith_urbanFan93

Fri, Dec 17, 2010 : 5:29 p.m.

I cant believe how ignorant some people can be... You don't even know the whole story...why judge now? Mr. Mark is a fabulous teacher and the three years I had with him (Im a Senior) I will NEVER forget He shouldn't be fired and EVERYONE who is orchestra right now at huron would agree with me. Since the news came out on thursday, my friend said she might quit orchestra... since it doesn't look like Mr. Mark is coming back anytime soon, if at all. I wouldn't doubt it if some other people said this also. Everything that he has built through his years at Huron has been destroyed and the music program will NEVER be the same if they hire a new orchestra director.

Quietted

Fri, Dec 17, 2010 : 4:38 p.m.

Mr. Mark was one of the few teachers who knew me. He knew my strengths and weaknesses. He was the one who reached out to help me when I was burglarized at school. I trusted Mr. Mark, because I knew he cared for me, possibly one of the worst musicians in orchestra. As one of the slowest cross country runners at school, I also knew what it was like to be left behind. To have nobody wondering where you are, what troubles you had, how far away you were... It was painful and I always felt neglected. Mr. Mark showed me that I was still important, though I struggled with music. I was going to ask him for my college recommendation letter. His termination will cause me to lose a recommendation and have to try and establish a deeper connection with another teacher. This will be hard since no other teacher has known me for more than one year. Sure, you may call me lazy, but it takes time for me to come out of my shell and build relationships, especially with educators. I sincerely hope that Mr. Mark will be able to return.

seldon

Fri, Dec 17, 2010 : 4:12 p.m.

I'm with Speechless. I think there should be a middle ground here.

Alex

Fri, Dec 17, 2010 : 4:11 p.m.

"user-pic Tesla86 Posted 1 day ago I'd like to surmise a perspective from Mr. Mark's standpoint. A student presents herself (as reported) with an extremely difficult situation at home, so bad that she would rather end her life than go on. Think about the gravity of what the girl (as reported) presented. What would you do if someone said that to you? Stop and imagine that someone has just told you they want to end it all. Would you not do or say things you felt would help save him or her? Would you know deep down that this is the most important thing, that is, to try to help and save this person in that very moment? What would say to them? Would you appreciate your words being misinterpreted later? Yes, in that very moment, those seconds, this teacher may have felt this student's life took priority. There was nothing romantic about it. If you were the parent of such an individual, would you appreciate that someone was helping your child, or would somehow become angry because you would hold some responsibility in such a situation, angry because you didn't like the manner in which SOMEONE ELSE had to help your child? Please don't forget that the parent (as reported) gave her permission to the teacher to accompany her child with no one else in tow. We watch situations like this on TV dramas everyday. Some doctor or police officer "bends the rules" to save someone, help someone, or try to bring true justice. We sit and watch and hail the TV characters. We may feel that we wished this was how life really is. And here is a situation. The fact that Mr. Mark is now seeing the girl is irrelevant. While some may not like it, it is what it is, but is not inappropriate. If a teacher dates a former student, so what? I can think of worse ways people have met. I feel that Mr. Mark was motivated by true human empathy and compassion. Yes COMPASSION, not passion. The measures he took may seem to some as extreme because the situation appears to have been extreme. Perhaps he pitied her. I hope that you would feel such pity for someone in this kind of circumstance. I believe this trial is enough to make him pay. If you want him to wake up, I'm sure he has. This is not enough to warrant a job loss, a career loss, or something that will haunt him for the rest of his life. He should not be punished for helping a student in need. We all say and do things that others find questionable. It is a matter of getting the root of the issue. The root being the motive and the outcome of the situation from years ago. Perhaps this is a wake-up call for parents to love their children. I have taught in Ann Arbor schools, and I shudder at some of what I see. And there are many positive things as well. We all need good role models when we are young; the most important being the parents. When this doesn't happen, you better believe teachers need to step in; the classroom wouldn't function as well if they didn't. This situation was very personal because (as reported) her life appears to have been on the line. We need each other. I feel Mr. Mark did respect this student, and did keep an overall distance. The situation appears to have been a very fine line and imperative because human life was involved." I am 100% agreeing with Tesla86. I am a current student at Huron High School right now, I am a Sophomore and I assure you that Mr. Mark has done NOTHING wrong here. This former student was at the point of ending her life. Mr. Mark was lending her a sympathetic hand. For all of you saying that he should have known his boundaries, for all you teachers claiming that Mr. Mark should be fired, if a suicidal student came to you and was very close to ending her own life, would you tell her that you can't talk to her on a personal level? Would you not do everything you could to stop her from taking her own life? The former student trusted Mr. Mark to a great extent. Roumel is right with his statements. A peck on the cheek is a big deal to most of you? Why don't you investigate all the counselors who constantly hug children for moral support in their hard times? Mr. Mark operates in a manor in which he gets to know his students as friends, why is that such a problem!? You might as well fire every teacher at Huron for that. I can assure you that most teachers at Huron know at least 50% of their students on a personal level. For example, Mr. Bondroff teaches American History. He knows a friend of mine, Levi Mazza, on a very personal level. Bondroff has pictures of students who hunt hanging on a cabinet in his room, might as well investigate him too shouldn't you? The Board's decision is unfair and ignorant. Their accusations on Mr. Mark are coming out of no where with lack of information. I do hope greatly that Mr. Mark returns from this useless trial for helping a suicidal student. Also, who cares if he is now in a relationship with the former student, they are both of age and age should not matter. Nothing romantic went on while the former student was in high school. The leaked email was greatly misinterpreted by most. When Mr. Mark said " I LOVE YOU, (student's name). I always have--after I met you. My son, LOVES YOU! Jesus LOVES YOU. Why won't YOU love YOU? YOU are surrounded by people with FANTASTIC judgement (sic)! Just give in and accept the fact-- YOU ARE LOVEABLE, FANTASTIC, WONDERFULLY TALENTED and a JOY TO HAVE THE PRIVILEDGE OF KNOWING! Can I lay it on ANY thicker? " he was reaching out to her because she was suicidal. He was trying to help her not end her life because of her home situation. As a student I know Mr. Mark has done NOTHING wrong and these charges should be immediately removed. I hope that all of you will reconsider your thoughts and maybe put yourselves in someone else's shoes for once in your lives.

Davidian

Fri, Dec 17, 2010 : 2:42 p.m.

Completely inappropriate on SO MANY levels--socially, religiously, romantically...I don't know where to begin or end. So I'll say it: He should be fired, without a doubt. And he should stay away from teenage CHILDREN.

robyn

Fri, Dec 17, 2010 : 2:19 p.m.

@ Nancy: Thanks for the additional input. I have a daughter in orchestra - not at Pioneer, and she's not in highschool yet. But she began in 5th grade and has continued with it every year and plans to stay in orchestra. As a parent I have noticed a different 'dynamic' with the orchestra classes that isn't there with other courses. In the orchestra - there is a group of kids that have been together each year - spending time in that particular class each day. They have had the same instructors throughout. This group of kids and the instructors will continue there orchestra 'relationship' all the way through high school. Not only that - they spend additional time at concerts, competetitions and other music related activities. I think it becomes much easier to form a closer bond to the teacher when they are part of your school life (and sometimes after school life) for a period of 3 to 6 years. I can see why the teachers would have a different relationship with their students also - as opposed to a teacher that may only have a student for a year or so. Not very many teachers are in a position to spend as much time on a daily basis with their students - it's reasonable that they would really get to know the kids and be able to relate to them. There is also the fact that a student that is close to a teacher that they have been with for a long period of time would be someone they would trust more with their own personal problems - even over a 'special councilor' that they have had relatively NO contact with. Think about it - some of these kids have been through more step parents than music intstructors in a 4 - 6 or 8 year period.

limmy

Fri, Dec 17, 2010 : 12:57 p.m.

Obviously this teacher has many redeeming qualities. But, he sent an email to a student saying "I love you". That is going to be hard to defend. My guess is that he will be terminated. It is really sad for everyone involved. I know that many orchestra students and parents take their music extremely seriously and they do not want to lose a dynamic teacher. It would be good to have the decision, one way or another, made quickly so that everyone involved can move forward.

mike from saline

Fri, Dec 17, 2010 : 12:08 p.m.

Needy? Vulnerable? Teetering on the brink of giving up? As a man, I can tell you, that many [if not most] hetrosexual men look at women and girls with these characteristics, the same way as a lion looks at a gazelle.....with a bad limp.

Nancy

Fri, Dec 17, 2010 : 11:47 a.m.

@robyn Actually I graduated the same year as her. I had no idea that there was anything going on if there was anything going on, but what you may think is interesting is that the moment I heard that Mr. Mark was accused of having had a relationship with a girl from my class, I immediately thought of her. I didn't think it was true, but she was the only student I thought it may have been possible with. As to all of the comments about how wonderful Mr. Mark is, and how passionate he is- this is definitely true. I had a lot of great experiences in Orchestra with him. However, after finding out about this and reading some of the evidence, I strongly feel he should not be teaching anymore. It's just sad that he didn't know how to help someone without crossing boundaries and ruining his life. He had such a nice family and adorable children. I guess I just don't understand what he was thinking getting involved in a relationship with her. I'll repeat what I said earlier: Just because someone has had an emotional impact on tons of students does not mean that he is above all standards. The way he's acted shows tremendously poor judgement. It's really sad that in the future i'll have to know about this situation every time I think back to my high school Orchestra years.

A

Fri, Dec 17, 2010 : 11:33 a.m.

I, like Nancy, am a graduate from 2006, and was highly active in the orchestras throughout my time at Huron. I spent many a lunch hour and occasional time after school with friends practicing (or playing guitar, drums, etc., as any form of musical interest was encouraged) in the orchestra room. I never had ANY idea that something like this was happening until years later when I was in college and heard rumor of this relationship. More recent students have brought forth situations that definitely don't seem to help Chris Mark's cause... discussing time spent with him outside of school, painting an "unprofessional" or "inappropriate" light on the student/teacher relationship. The fact of the matter is that I, my friends from high school, more recent students, parents, etc. all have faith that this man would do no harm to any student. That part aside, it seems like their relationship while she was a student may have been borderline inappropriate, but there is no evidence that anything legally punishable happened. I think this is a matter of people prying into a man's private life, and the fact that his has been brought up 5 years later (too late) is ridiculous.

MjC

Fri, Dec 17, 2010 : 9:58 a.m.

aaquestion - I will repeat my earlier post. Teachers hold a position of 'power' over students. Teachers determine grades, administer exams, prepare student recommendation letters, and can also verbally encourage - or humiliate - students in a classroom setting. Mr. Mark's actions with this high school student were completely inappropriate. Mr. Marks knows this. The school board must fire him. If he had any respect for Huron High School and the students he was paid to educate, he would have resigned the moment he crossed over that line.

aaquestion

Fri, Dec 17, 2010 : 9:13 a.m.

@To Mr. Mark: Please allow me to use your words. Jesus LOVES you. Please don't give up on yourself. @To AA.COM: If you believe that you report this because we fellow citizens have the right to know about this matter, please report the full story, not just the results and some 'evidence.' We want to know what brought up the initial complaint (we don't need to know the names but we need to know the reasons behind this whole thing) and what was the procedure and process to lead current decision. Seems it's like a black box for the last 5 months. @To All (including myself): My child is in Huron Orchestra now. I cannot remember how many times I have seen Mr. Mark spoke in tears during the orchestra performance nights in front of all parents. He acknowledged parents' support, he thanked the students' hard work, he appreciated the school staff support, and he ended up in tears. Yes. He is such a passionate person. I cannot say for 100% sure, but I believe if you ask any orchestra student, boy or girl, you would only hear good things about Mr. Mark. Orchestra class is the class that my kid does not want to miss even if this kid is sick. Beside music teachers, probably there is no other teacher will see your high school kid EVERY day at school for 4 years. It's very likely that the music teacher is the one that your kid will trust most in school. Adults, please ask ourselves honestly. Who will go to those professional helpers first when we encounter some personal issues? If we cannot do it ourselves, why we blame other people? In Bible, John 8:7 "Let the one among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her." I guess only those who never made wrong judgment calls or never acted cross boundaries have the right to criticize Mr. Mark. @To the mother & family: Jesus LOVES you. I guess 5 years ago, you probably could not thank Mr. Mark enough for saving your precious daughter. Current situation, everybody loses in my opinion. The school is going to lose a very good teacher, a man is going to lose his career, a relationship is going to be jeopardized. Of course, the world will keep going on and unrelated people may forget this fairly soon. However, when in the quiet time, I hope you really feel in peace.

ViSHa

Fri, Dec 17, 2010 : 8:46 a.m.

Does the attorney disclose at what point after graduation the student became his girlfriend in the five year time span? If, as another poster wrote, he did have a wife in 2005, i would believe the innocence of the emails and outings more if she came out and supported him.

Steve Pepple

Fri, Dec 17, 2010 : 8:32 a.m.

A comment that contained speculation about motives has been removed.

skigrl50

Fri, Dec 17, 2010 : 7:57 a.m.

Suffice it to say that there are many holes in what is being reported. If folks out there that are being so judgmental really did know all of the facts you may think differently.

padfoot

Fri, Dec 17, 2010 : 7:37 a.m.

AA.com owes Bill Harris, special ed AD, a big apology for not fact checking the first version of the article and naming him, not the teacher at Haisley, as having tenure charges levied against him. Really, really irresponsible. Shame on you for such sloppy publishing.

bobbyt

Fri, Dec 17, 2010 : 2:09 a.m.

When did they start dating - before or after her graduation? What does the school policy say about student-teacher relationships? No one seems to know...

alan

Fri, Dec 17, 2010 : 1:52 a.m.

Several comments make the assertion that it is inappropriate for a male teacher to have a relationship outside of school with a female student. Why this particular distinction? I'm troubled that people are so quick to attach some lurid connotation to any personal interaction. When I was a kid, teachers were neighbors and part of the community like everyone else. We knew where they lived, we helped with yard work, house sat when they went on vacation, walked their dogs. They had us in for lunch and gave us rides if we needed it. We knew that being friends with the teacher would help us mature personally and academically. They were part of the village that raised us all. Did this man violate any law? Did he have a sexual relationship with the girl while she was his student and underage? If I read correctly, she is now in her mid twenties. Maybe he loves her. We should all be so lucky.

CountyKate

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 11:10 p.m.

I am bothered by what appear to be holes in this story. I see a lot of opinions here, but I'm not sure we have all the facts. I am particularly bothered by the five year gap between the girl's graduation and these allegations being made by the mother. The girl is now, what? 23? Why wait so long? I don't have any idea what side to come down on, because I don't think we have the full picture here. There is something about all this that seems out of kilter and I suspect there's a lot we don't yet know. Meanwhile, Mr. Mark is being tried in the court of public opinion. Sad.

Db10

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 10:56 p.m.

As many teachers have pointed out, this relationship crossed boundaries. If he wanted to help this student, he should have involved the parents and school counselors for permission and professional guidance respectively. What also concerns me is the continuing relationship that developed romantically. He created that stage for this relationship while she was in high school creating a close and perhaps dependent bond. This relationship does not give her the chance to freely explore and develop other romantic relationships appropriate for an 18 year old. I can understand the mother's concern.

aradant

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 10:45 p.m.

Sally makes a good point, there are plenty of bad teachers in the district, but they're jobs are protected by tenure and and worst mediocre behavior. Mr. Mark is a very effective teacher, but because of this one act he faces loosing his career. Also, some have expressed concern that this could happen again with a student. Is it at all possible that this girl was just an exceptional woman that he truly loved. I'm not saying he did or didn't feel that way while she was a student, but the fact that they continue that relationship should alleviate fears that this is an everyday action for Mr. Mark

Sallyxyz

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 10:25 p.m.

Professional, caring teachers who support students having difficulties are to be praised. I think in this case, however, the teacher stepped over the line, and let his personal feelings cloud his judgment. An excellent teacher will respond with support in a situation such as this one, but that teacher will also know when to refer the student to get professional help. Huron has counselors who are trained to deal with suicidal students and students having very serious difficulties, and the student should have been referred to those professionals. However, based on the information provided in the AA dot com articles, I don't think he should lose his job over this error in judgment. Perhaps a reprimand is a better approach for this excellent teacher. I personally think the district should spend more time on getting rid of poorly performing teachers (and there are some bad ones out there).

magnumpi

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 10:13 p.m.

I know it shouldn't matter, but now knowing that he was married during the time of the email and the outings (according to another poster) and obviously isn't now-- that bumps up the "ick" factor for me.

5c0++ H4d13y

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 9:51 p.m.

@Patti Smith What's funny is I used to pick up my principal on hot days when he was walking home. He lived around the block from me. He accepted sometimes but he was walking for the exercise so often he declined.

shepard145

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 9:06 p.m.

...so if a person attends Huron High they can never date anyone who teaches there - even years or decades later? Oh please! What is the definition of a "student" - is she a student for life? It seems to me if he wants to date a girl the day after she graduates and is 18, have fun. The notion that he is in a position of power is no different then most marriages where men are the principal authority in their homes and the women follow - that is perfectly natural. The fact that he wrote those corny emails that she then spilled to the world is more pathetic then anything. If he is guilty, it's of poor judgment when it comes to women.

robyn

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 9:03 p.m.

@ Nancy: Obviously you were a year behind the student in the article - but for three years she was at school and in the orchestra. Yet you seem to be saying that this information that has come out now is the first you've heard about it. My question - Was there any indications of 'something going on' while you were there? If it wasn't obvious to the people that were there every day - I have to wonder how much of the story has been blown out of proportion. Schools are like rumor city - not much happens that doesn't get passed along...

robyn

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 8:30 p.m.

I read the 'letters' or emails... Okay I may be guilty of crossing the boundaries with an 8 year old. One of my son's lttle buddies was over and kind of bummed out becuase the other kids were not including him. I said "Don't worry about it little dude - I love you. You can come in with me and help me make ice-cream cones." Now that I realize how inappropriate that is to some people - I will not do it again... (Yeah - right.) Just wondering - has this teacher EVER been accused of having any kind of romantic/sexual relationship with any other student? (In Ann Arbor or any other prior school district - even as a teaching assistant?) No one has addressed whether the romantic relationship began BEFORE or AFTER her graduation. Did the mother of the student ever bring up the involvement between her daughter and the teacher while the daughter was a student at Pioneer? If not - what was the reasoning for waiting for so long to finally come forward? I'm not trying to dismiss or excuse the actions of any of the parties involved - but I hardly think anyone - least of all those of us that don't know the full story - can leap to conclusions based simply on our own moral standards and beliefs. This is a very personal issue for those involved. If I have read the story correctly - the student and the teacher are still together - so apparently this wasn't some sort of temporary fling. I also don't get the impression from the story that this teacher took advantage of a vulnerable child - if he were some kind of predator - he would have access to a lot of 'vulnerable' girls and that doesn't seem to be the case.

Heather

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 8:23 p.m.

If Mr. Mark is allowed to continue to have influence over young and impressionable kids its only a matter of time before he "helps" another lost and misguided teen. Perhaps with this investigation we try and find out if there were other professional shortcomings. I, as a mother of 3, all of whom play instruments or are deeply interested in the arts would be devastated if my child started dating a teacher regardless of when the relationship starts. It is my contention that an individual illustrates a track record of behavioral patterns and if this is an isolated incident I would be incredibly surprised. Regardless of his popularity, although popularity to me is another red flag, He has done a grave injustice to the school, district and his profession. If as a society we are appalled at female teachers that exhibit the same lack of professional restraint, how can this injustice go unpunished? Mr. Mark has been suspended with pay. In translation, those of us paying into the school system are not only paying Mr. Mark's salary, benefits and any other form of compensation, we are also paying for a full time sub? In a state like Michigan that is in financial ruins this man has added a burden financially along with his lack of professional judgment. How is this justified? As far as another student describing a day with a "friend" is another level of disbelief for me. How is this not showing a serial sense of behavior?

mkm17

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 8:07 p.m.

Speechless makes thoughtful comments. It had not occurred to me before now that a teacher could, in fact, have had such a relationship with a student and retain his job. I would be dumbfounded if there were not a district policy prohibiting a teacher from engaging in the behaviors (including the peck on the cheek, significant time spent alone in each other's company, and e-mail) described in the article. I find it curious that other students or AAPS staff, at least a few of which must have known of the teacher's behavior, did not report the teacher to a school authority.

Nancy

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 7:46 p.m.

I was in Huron Orchestra for four years and graduated in 2006. With all the information i've seen about this case so far, especially the email from Mr. Mark posted in this article and the written statement from 'the girl' (not naming names) on the Support Mr. Mark facebook group- I can definitely say that I am glad the school board is firing Mr. Mark. Just because he emotionally impacted a bunch of students does not mean that he is exempt from being punished for a thing like this.

Sam Smith

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 7:42 p.m.

Trying to keep an open mind... what if she did kill herself because Mr. Mark took it upon himself to be the only one to help her?

aradant

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 7:13 p.m.

For all those looking at excerpts from his "love letter," please read them yourself (linked in the word "girlfriend") to get some context before you judge his comments. Remember this was a man desperately trying to save the life of a student. He was the only person in her world she could get this help from. I'm speaking from the perspective of a student who knows that teens almost never go to a designated counselor, we go to the people that we know best and that we trust whether that be a best friend, a relative, or a teacher.

Susan Montgomery

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 7:05 p.m.

@jeff4179 - Regarding the issue of " no one calling him a "monster" " you would have had to be there or watch the repeats on cable to see how another speaker referred to him... I made that reference suspecting that that person was going to be there.

Speechless

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 6:45 p.m.

"... Roumel... urged trustees to find some middle ground between proceeding with tenure charges and doing nothing...." "... This is a teacher with boundary issues...." "... His behavior appears inappropriate and a generous interpretation is that he exercised bad judgment. But what school district policies did he violate that would make clear to the rest of us the grounds for his dismissal?" "... No [one] is claiming that he is a "monster"...." Lawyer Nick Roumel acts as a voice of reason on this matter. Please notice that his choice of words does not absolve his client of acting inappropriately or straying outside the professional expectations that most parents and teaching colleagues hold. He instead asks the very sensible ethical question of why the decision must be all or nothing. Taking an all-or-nothing approach in making the judgment call — which will determine this teacher's future livelihood — is so arbitrary. It speaks more to very traditional, religious-driven fears than to rational, appropriate justice for questionable social decisions made five years ago among parties of unequal age and authority in the classroom. This news report, as a result, reads a bit like a scene from The Scarlet Letter re-staged in modern context. As a society, while we slowly get over issues like sexism, homophobia, and gender roles, our not-yet resolved hysteria over sexuality continues to express itself in different, less examined ways. Based on the details available, I'd lean toward a more restrained penalty. It seems unnecessary to reach for the nuclear option and blow up his career. Booting him out of the profession appears to go too far, and I'll bet that those who angrily call for his head on a platter probably hold the quiet fear that they, too, have the capacity to do as they imagine he did — or to go further. This is similar to those evangelical preachers who loudly condemn gays as a way to distract from, or deny, the repression of their own same-sex desires. That Mark has such broad, loyal support from many students and parents ought to count for something. It makes the school board's all-or-nothing approach look unhinged. Then again, this is the same board who greatly inflated the salary for a new superintendent for no good reason whatsoever. Should Chris Mark ultimately lose his job and teaching career, hopefully his supporters within the community will assist him in making a new beginning. ------------ On a side note, I recall that at least some of the countercultural 'free schools' of the 1970s expressly resolved to break down social boundaries and lines of authority inside the classroom. They placed teachers in the role of learned mentors and older peers. Students had a fair degree of input on decisions over individual curriculum and group activities. Despite being intentionally blurred as a matter of agreed-upon policy, boundaries between teachers and students did still exist, of course. Respectful behavior was expected from all.

Will

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 6:21 p.m.

It is my opinion that if any school employee believes that a student is suicidal, that employee has the responsibility to immediately notify the administrator and/or counselor to insure that the necessary steps are taken to obtain professional help to prevent loss of life.

Mick52

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 6:15 p.m.

I think the behavior here is questionable, but what I do not like about this is that it is so old. If the teacher was doing this with a current student, that is one thing but this retroactive action five later. I wonder why for 5 years there apparently was no issue, but all of a sudden there is. I wonder what the mother's reason was for bringing this out now. It should be handled per the law if applicable, and per school policy if there is one. If there isn't, there will be. Lacking a legal violation or a complaint from a "victim" (Mom is not a victim) this should be deposited in the equivalent of a "statute of limitations" circular file.

Soothslayer

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 5:59 p.m.

And wuv, tru wuv, will fowow you foweva...

Mark

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 4:55 p.m.

One thing to consider here. The same behavior towards another student could easily end up differently with a student complaining of sexual harassment. End of employment. Even if it was consensual, it is still inappropriate. As far as the delay in bringing this forth...we obviously don't know the full story.

musicrat

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 4:47 p.m.

For those thinking he "crossed the bounderies," what boundaries? As stated, the mother gave him permission to take the student in his car. What law did he break? What is "appropriate" to you as a parent - are you going to use this as your basis for firing a real man with a real job and a real life? People should step back and take another look after their "shudder" because consider this: The student was (according to some of the previous articles) very troubled and suicidal. Mr. Mark wrote a letter to her to help support her. From what's been printed, I see an extremely supportive teacher. For those who argue that the student should've seen a counselor - students don't know or trust counselors. They speak to people they can trust, and have few people they are willing to open up to. This is especially true for young, troubled teens. I know many have an issue with teachers dating former students but come on, they're both adults. And also, why the five year wait? The mother waited all these years to report something so serious? The information we have been given has been extremely controversial and full of questions, doubt, and personal speculations. Doesn't seem like enough to fire him. All I hope is, it won't be personal feelings and bias that decide this case. Let's be careful not to judge too quickly on what limited information we've been given.

aatownie

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 4:41 p.m.

OK-I get that she was a needy student and that her "teacher" was trying to be supportive when she needed support, HOWEVER, the wording of the emails sent telling the student that she held all the power in the relationship, and that she should not break his heart does not mesh with the role of a supportive teacher-it crosses the boundaries by miles into the language of a major crush.....

Mark

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 4:32 p.m.

I wasn't going to write anything, but there are a lot of posts by people that are not connected with the Huron Music program. My daughter attended Huron and graduated in 2006, so I can only speak from what I know about that period. Chris Mark did a wonderful job with the orchestra students -- they were challenged and performed some extremely difficult and complex pieces, and it was obvious that they thought very highly of him. I found Chris to be personable, hard-working, and dedicated to doing as much as he could for the students. However, just as the University of Michigan has a code of conduct for professors and students, I am sure there is even a more stringent one in the AAPS. As others have noted, there is a problem when a teacher uses bad judgment in teacher/student relationships. You can be a great teacher, but a train wreck in other ways. Part of being a professional is knowing what to do in situations such as this. If a student has family/personal problems you try and help them through counselors trained in those areas. It's not like Chris didn't already have a wife and two beautiful young children that needed his attention. Nobody likes to see students in bad situations -- however, the way Chris handled it seems inappropriate and we may never know the full story. You can still like the teacher, the man, and not like his choice of action. Good people make stupid choices, and on many things we get a free pass, unless it's a transgression such as this. You simply don't put yourself into that sort of situation, no matter how pure your motives are. It's a sad situation for all involved, and the blame has to sit squarely on Chris, since he was the adult, and nothing I have seen in the news has convinced me that he should be back teaching here. Unfortunately, should he be fired, he will have a hard time finding a similar position within the public schools.

StarChild

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 4:22 p.m.

Kind of amazes me that anyone would think his relationship with the student was appropriate. Kind of reminds me of the "foot massage" test in Pulp Fiction. Would Mark send a note to a male student saying that he loves him, that he has all of the power in their relationship and please don't break his heart? "You're sayin' the note don't mean nothing, and I'm sayin' it does. I've given a million high school girls a million notes and they all meant somethin'. We act like they don't, but they do. That's what's so cool about 'em. This sensual thing's goin' on that nobody's talkin about, but you know it and she knows it, the school board knows it, and Chris Mark shoulda known better."

Listen

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 4:18 p.m.

To the casual observer (which most of the posters here are), Mr. Mark's behavior may or may not seem inappropriate based simply on your opinion of what you feel is inappropriate. Because they are teachers, Ms. Lesemann and Halima are posting from a position of experience and knowledge. They obviously know what types of teacher/student interactions are appropriate and how a teacher could effectively handle a situation with a troubled student. A2.com has not yet reported on the school's official policies on student/teacher interaction, but you can rest assured that the school board knows what these policies are, and their action to terminate him are based on the fact that he behaved in ways that were inappropriate per the policy. Even if the board were on the fence about what to do, Ms. Peng's "supportive" speech would have sealed the deal to terminate him. She might think it's perfectly acceptable to spend the day shopping with her teacher alone, but I am guessing it's very much against the rules, and he probably knows that. The fact that he continues to socialize alone with his students indicates his judgement hasn't improved at all in the last 5 years.

Deb

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 3:50 p.m.

I find it quite interesting that more people seem willing to mistrust the motives of the mother than the teacher in this situation.

Ashley Weigel

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 3:18 p.m.

@Runr Dad; I totally agree; thank you for pointing that out. I think she made the situation worse for Mark

Ashley Weigel

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 3:15 p.m.

For those supporting Mr. Mark; Perhaps he didn't do anything wrong or break any rules, but it is still really inappropriate for teachers to send students emails like the one Mark sent his former student, as well as "hanging out" with their students outside of school. That really crosses boundaries. Before you go off again on the school board, think about what kinds of relationships teachers are SUPPOSED to have with their students; they help you out and everything AT SCHOOL and don't spend alone time with students OUTSIDE of SCHOOL

robyn

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 3:07 p.m.

While I understand the very strong opinions people have about this subject, I really don't thnik any of us (unless we're directly involved and/or know the people involved personally) can really determine what exactly the teacher did and it it did cross the boundaries. It's even more difficult to define what exatcly the boundaries between a teacher and student encompass and where they are limited - just from what some of the teachers have posted. I'm not surehow much of those boundaries are self imposed and how much are imposed by their school district or whomever dictates their code of conduct. The other issue I have with all of this is the student's age. She was a senior when this took place - so she'd be about 17 or 18 years old during her senior year. Not some naive little child. Face it - there are more than a few 17 and 18 year old seniors with children. If a girl that age can make the choice to have and keep a baby - a HUGE decision - what makes the girl in the story incapable of making major choices? I don't know her - but I have known teenagers that were wise and mature beyond their years. (I've known some adults that didn't have the sense my 10 year old has - and that's not much.) So - how can anyone say this girl was taken advantage of becuase she was young - or immature? Okay - I do get the aversion to the age thing. Personally it's a little creepy to me - age difference is too close to a Dad thing - eck. But that works for some people - and it may have played a huge psychological role in the relationship for the girl. And I too wonder why it took the Mom so long to get upset enough to make noise about it now. I this the family dynamics involved probably have more to do with control than concern.

aaparent

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 2:57 p.m.

@Kyle & A2.com -- I realize that Nick Roumel works at Nacht law, but it's nice of you again to put a link up to their law firm I have read newspapers for more years than I want to admit and it is not standard to list the firm name when you quote an attorney. (NPR's the car guy's mock long law firm names when they credit their own attorneys: Dewey, Cheatem, and Howe.) My point is that you are giving this law firm an advertising plug in your reporting and I don't think that is typical unless you are doing a bio on the attorney. Nick Roumel's former position on the school board is a piece of information that is relevant to your topic, not the new firm he has affiliated with. @A2.com -- how was the editorial decision made to publish these emails when so many people in the Ann Arbor community know who the parties involved are and this should be a private personnel matter? I'd be curious to hear how Jack Lessenberry, a veteran journalist, would have gone about reporting this story. I think he would have done it differently. @Amy Lesemann -- good points.

treetowncartel

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 2:43 p.m.

Why would it be fifferent if he was a PE or math teacher? BTW, Huron had a gym teacher or two back in the 70's, 80's and 90's who may have been crossing the boundary lines. I'm not naming names, but I do know the Shenanigans were well documented in the old ann arbor snooze.

HaeJee

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 2:41 p.m.

I dont want to make any quick judgments based off a AA.com article of someones professional character. I do think it says a lot about a teacher that does hold so much respect and support from their students. I am NOT convinced that he should be fired based on the information provided. I am interested in why the mother would file a complaint 5 years later. What purpose did she have to raise this now that her daughter is a consenting adult?

brynn

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 2:29 p.m.

While we clearly do not have all the information about this situation, I have to say that, based on what is reported here, I believe the school board is making a mistake. Having been a teacher for 22 years, I certainly understand that there are limits which must not be crossed with students. On the other hand, it sounds as if Chris Mark's behavior was at worst borderline in this case, especially given what seems to have been the dire family situation and emotional condition of the student. I'd also like to note the fallacy of believing that only "experts" should be involved in counseling students; in fact, as teenagers, students often reach out to "non-expert" adults for a sympathetic ear and solace from family situations that appear to them to be intolerable. My own daughter was actively involved in theatre as a high school student in Ann Arbor. When she was a senior, a young man in his twenties (not a teacher), who was working with the theatre students fell madly in love with her. He did nothing before she graduated, though he did attend some of the students' parties. On the other hand, my daughter was not suicidal, nor even unhappy particularly. As soon as she graduated, he declared himself. Subsequently they married and now have a young son. After graduating from college, she founded a successful theatre company, and he began a public performing arts high school. She is now almost thirty. Should I have intervened and attempted to have my son-in-law disciplined? Should I have ruined their futures? What possible purpose could this serve? People cannot necessarily control their attractions to others; they can control their behavior, but I don't see in this case that Mark's behavior should be judged inappropriate. Also, while I know you don't want to publish anything that might cast aspersions on the mother involved (understandably), I can't help but wonder why it has taken five years for these charges to "come forward." In two years, the statute of limitations would have expired. Can A2.com cast any light on this curious aspect of the situation?

mkm17

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 2:28 p.m.

Windy's post gives more support to my assertion that students are not yet mature enough to judge what is an appropriate relationship. If anything, the post will cause more harm than good to Mr. Mark's cause.

dexterreader

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 2:02 p.m.

It's all about boundaries and common sense. Being a teacher puts a person in a position of authority over any student. I do not personally know this man, and I am sure he is an outstanding teacher, as is evidenced by the number of supporters who attended the "hearing". But he was still the adult in the situation, and she was the child, and a vulnerable one at that. It's unfortunate, but even the appearance of anything besides a completely innocent relationship is not a good thing in the teaching profession.

Windy

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 2:01 p.m.

Mr. Mark was my teacher for three of my high school years. No one really knows how great a teacher and person Mr. Mark is until you actually have had him as your teacher... From the eyes of a parent or school board member, it is blindly different than one of a student. Mr. Mark was intimidating at first, but he gave off a warm atmosphere. Being in the lowest orchestra, I was afraid he would treat us like we were lower than all the other orchestras. It didn't go down like that. Mr. Mark was a wonderful storyteller, he really did know how to deliver not only through music, but also words. A lot of times, we would get distracted and be caught in discussions. They weren't even boring discussions either. Orchestra with Mr.Mark truly was a class not only about music, but about life and the world around us. Which may sound kind of weird, but that is how I perceived it in the end... and I never really realized this until after. Truthfully, it doesn't really surprise me that Lauren and Mr. Mark hung out. If you're one of his students, we all have hung out with Mr. Mark outside the classroom, not once, but many times. The only thing that may strike someone else's eyes is that she was alone with Mr. Mark. Again, this doesn't shock me all too much either. I don't know the policies with a teacher hanging out with a student, but I just don't feel that this is wrong... I would have bad chills if it were a different teacher, like a math teacher or PE teacher. If you were a student of his, you just know what it's like... You can go to Mr. Mark for anything, talk about what is troubling you, what's stressing you out, or just advice on anything. He will literally drop EVERYTHING he is doing at the moment you need him and do his best to help you. When you're talking to him, he's not staring at the ground or continuing to do what he's doing. He will give you your full attention when you're in need of him. I have nothing else really to say... Mr. Mark was one of my few favorite teachers at Huron. I liked a lot of my teachers, but Mr. Mark was more than a teacher to our orchestras. He was the reason that everyone was so close, like a family. I can't even imagine how orchestra will be at Huron now.

Dexterdriver

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 1:46 p.m.

These student "supporters" are painfully naive and apparently unaware of standards of proper ethics involving students and teachers ("huh"). This joker ought to have been fired before now. Unfortunately, it took the girl's mother to bring this tawdry relationship to the surface. Hopefully, this case may wise up other educators who are tempted to seduce their young, impressionable charges. You can't do that. There are few things that can get a teacher fired. However talented regarding music education, this fellow doesn't have a clue about the boundaries one must maintain when given the privilege of educating young people in a public school. Too bad about that, but there are a lot of qualified people, aware of a teacher's proper role, who would love to have his job........and......one of them soon will!

Amy Lesemann

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 1:35 p.m.

As a teacher, I have encountered suicidal students. I have encountered students who were being molested. Over the years, good teachers become the confidantes of troubled students. But if you ARE a good, professional teacher, you know your limits, and you know what to do when your student needs more help than you are trained to provide. You take that student directly to the counselor. You sit with them as they call the suicide hot line. You arrange a parent teacher principal guidance counselor meeting. You do NOT play a role you are not trained to play. Being a teacher is often about knowing your limits and knowing when to say no, I'm sorry, I care about you a great deal, which is why I'm saying no. Here is a person who lost track of the limits, and that is catastrophic. It is one thing to take a group of students out for ice cream, but it is an altogether different thing to take a single student out for dinner. I find it difficult to believe that people can't understand that difference. I had a superb a.p. biology teacher who is, unfortunately, still the best instructor I ever had. Unfortunately, later I found out he was also a pedophile, molesting many boys in the school. But he was brilliant - a brilliant, disturbed, sick man. How do we reconcile these things? It's so horribly difficult. But two opposites can exist in one person. Somehow he must've justified his behavior to himself. It was devastating to find out the truth about him; obviously it changed how I felt about my experiences with him. What my biology teacher did was terrible, and much worse than what we're dealing with here. But I do feel that what Mr. Mark did was wrong and showed extremely poor judgment. But we have to understand that great teaching abilities and poor judgment can exist in a single person, and then figure out what we can live with, and what we can tolerate. Where is the limit? What can we accept as a community? There's the rub.

mkm17

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 1:07 p.m.

Tesla86 makes excellent points. However, a teacher is not trained in social work or counseling. If the student's situation and state of mind were as grave and desperate as has been described, the only reasonable course of action for the teacher should have been to refer the student to the school's principal, counselor, social worker, or even CPS. I'm not sure what role Mr. Mark saw himself in. Advisor, friend, confidante, counselor? Any of those roles were *not* Mr. Marks's role. He was the student's teacher. Period.

Tesla86

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 12:50 p.m.

I'd like to surmise a perspective from Mr. Mark's standpoint. A student presents herself (as reported) with an extremely difficult situation at home, so bad that she would rather end her life than go on. Think about the gravity of what the girl (as reported) presented. What would you do if someone said that to you? Stop and imagine that someone has just told you they want to end it all. Would you not do or say things you felt would help save him or her? Would you know deep down that this is the most important thing, that is, to try to help and save this person in that very moment? What would say to them? Would you appreciate your words being misinterpreted later? Yes, in that very moment, those seconds, this teacher may have felt this student's life took priority. There was nothing romantic about it. If you were the parent of such an individual, would you appreciate that someone was helping your child, or would somehow become angry because you would hold some responsibility in such a situation, angry because you didn't like the manner in which SOMEONE ELSE had to help your child? Please don't forget that the parent (as reported) gave her permission to the teacher to accompany her child with no one else in tow. We watch situations like this on TV dramas everyday. Some doctor or police officer "bends the rules" to save someone, help someone, or try to bring true justice. We sit and watch and hail the TV characters. We may feel that we wished this was how life really is. And here is a situation. The fact that Mr. Mark is now seeing the girl is irrelevant. While some may not like it, it is what it is, but is not inappropriate. If a teacher dates a former student, so what? I can think of worse ways people have met. I feel that Mr. Mark was motivated by true human empathy and compassion. Yes COMPASSION, not passion. The measures he took may seem to some as extreme because the situation appears to have been extreme. Perhaps he pitied her. I hope that you would feel such pity for someone in this kind of circumstance. I believe this trial is enough to make him pay. If you want him to wake up, I'm sure he has. This is not enough to warrant a job loss, a career loss, or something that will haunt him for the rest of his life. He should not be punished for helping a student in need. We all say and do things that others find questionable. It is a matter of getting the root of the issue. The root being the motive and the outcome of the situation from years ago. Perhaps this is a wake-up call for parents to love their children. I have taught in Ann Arbor schools, and I shudder at some of what I see. And there are many positive things as well. We all need good role models when we are young; the most important being the parents. When this doesn't happen, you better believe teachers need to step in; the classroom wouldn't function as well if they didn't. This situation was very personal because (as reported) her life appears to have been on the line. We need each other. I feel Mr. Mark did respect this student, and did keep an overall distance. The situation appears to have been a very fine line and imperative because human life was involved.

treetowncartel

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 12:28 p.m.

This is definitely a "Dual Relationship". If Mr. Mark were a licensed social worker, or licensed health professional, he would probably lose his license. While me have had good intentions at the time, there are definitely some boundary lines that need to be respected. If this were the school counselor or prinicipal pecking her on the cheek would it be appropriate?

aaquestion

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 12:04 p.m.

who is the parent who sent the email? how can this person obtain this email? did aa.com verify the email contents before publish it? in other words, anyone can just send you an email and you publish it? what's the initial intention to file complaint for this teacher at this point if the 'relationship' was indeed there 5 years ago?

robyn

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 12:03 p.m.

From the article: He said Mark had only received that one complaint in his nine years of teaching at Huron. Mark saw the former student socially three times while she was at Huron, according to the document. Roumel also alleged the e-mails exchanged between Mark and the former student were severely misrepresented in the tenure case brought forward by district administrators. (The communications were) a supportive e-mail to a student who was teetering on the brink of giving up, Roumel said in the statement. So does 'socially' infer a "date" or the teacher meeting ith her outside of school in the role of an adult friend with no romantic/sexual involvement. Two people can be attracted to one another and NEVER act upon it - or wait until the time when acting upon it is appropriate and acceptable. Also - the article states that this teacher has met socially with at least one other student in helping her learn to drive. So - I guess I have to wonder if it's okay to meet with a student socially if there is no attraction to them but it's not okay to do so if there IS an attraction? Which you really wouldn't be able to confirm until at time when that attraction is acted upon. If there was NO romantic or sexual relationship during the time the student was still in high school - then this would be a case of punishing the guy for his thoughts/feelings. While - as a parent - I would be very concerned about a more than close student/teacher relationship if my own daughter was involved. IF nothing happened during that time and my daughter made the choice AFTER she graduated to pursue a romantic relationship with that teacher - there is not much that I can do. (I can say whatever I want - think whatever I want - but if she's an adult, she can make her own choices.) I would also hope that - as a parent - I have done a good job of helping my daughter learn to make good choices for herself and trust her ability to do so enough that I would be able to support her decisions. But that's just me - and I don't think the article gives enough information to determine whether the teacher breeched the boundaries or not. (And you can't be guilty for your thoughts - if that were true ALL of us would be in jail for something...)

Susan Montgomery

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 12:01 p.m.

To clarify the reporter's comment, and @aaparent: Unless another parent sent him the letter from the lawyer, the letter was INADVERTENTLY sent to annarbor.com by a parent who was intending to share it only with the orchestra parents group and was not aware that reporters were also on the recipients list of the email he was replying to. It was not this person's intention to send it to AnnArbor.com reporters.

A2Susie

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 11:56 a.m.

This is so very sad. A teacher who inspired his students to do their very best is lost to the district and probably to teaching on the basis of some emails, a peck on the cheek, and a few outings. Perhaps there is a smoking gun that we as citizens have not been made aware of, but I don't see it yet. I hope the district realizes that all due diligence is required before they end a man's career. That so many students and parents have trusted him and believed in him makes me wonder if he is being railroaded.

Kyle Feldscher

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 11:51 a.m.

@aaparent: Nick Roumel does, in fact work for Nacht Law, here's the link to his profile: http://www.nachtlaw.com/bio/NicholasRoumel.asp. As for the e-mails, they were in a statement that was obtained by AnnArbor.com through an e-mail from a parent. Roumel said he did not intend for the statement to become public.

jeff4179

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 11:49 a.m.

A lot of those at the meeting and the commenters on this site are distorting the issue. No in is claiming that he is a "monster" who "manipulates young women into relationships." He is being charged with an inappropriate relationship with this particular former student. The fact that he has spent time with other students without treating them inappropriately does not mean that he did not have an inappropriate relationship with this particular student. It appears that he crossed the line with this student based on the email that his lawyer claims has been distorted (it looks pretty bad without being distorted) and the fact that he was not inappropriate with EVERY student is not relevant.

DonBee

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 11:37 a.m.

@dextermom - No I did not, I choose to highlight what she said, not how or why she said it. It is not for the student to notice the contact is wrong, it is the teacher's job. Ms. Peng has never had training on this issue, I assume the teacher has. He, not she is wrong here. But, the fact that this happened at all means we all lose here. A great teacher (by everything I have heard and read), a student who should have been protected, other students who don't realize what they are doing is crossing boundries, the community and the tax payer. My issue is how to we move forward and avoid it again?

sigdiamond

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 11:36 a.m.

A2.com: Did Mark's attorneys release these emails to the newspaper or was this information included in the school board packet, open for the public to read? Is there a PR campaign Mark is indirectly organizing through his attorneys to help save his professional reputation rather than keeping the details of this personnel matter private? If making these e-mails public is part of a PR campaign by Mark and his lawyer, it's the worst PR campaign in the history of the universe.

aaparent

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 11:05 a.m.

@Halima, Topher, Amy Leseman -- Excellent job explaining how procedures could be follow and boundaries respected while still helping a student. @ A2.com -- Your coverage should have provided the information the above posters did regarding standard procedures and professional boundaries. If the information wasn't available, you could have written that the reporter asked for a copy of any policies the district has and at press time, the information wasn't available. I think that would make your news coverage more effective. @ A2.com -- Susan Montgomery said the emails were sent to the A2.com by parents. I think your news article should be clear about how you obtained copies of the emails. Is Mr. Mark objecting to this information being publicized or is he involved in asking parent supporters to help him? I think the school board is correct to investigate this further. Professional boundary lines were crossed at the time the teacher was an employee and in a position of power and supervision over the student who was in a vulnerable position. Mr. Mark could have handled himself more professionally.

John Q

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 11:03 a.m.

For those saying he should be fired, which actions warrant him being fired and on what grounds? His behavior appears inappropriate and a generous interpretation is that he exercised bad judgment. But what school district policies did he violate that would make clear to the rest of us the grounds for his dismissal?

mkm17

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 11 a.m.

My husband is a teacher. He makes sure that his classroom door is always open (literally), and that he is not alone with a student. I believe the Boy Scouts have a policy in which a one scout leader may not be alone with a scout. In other words, two leaders must be present. Mr. Mark's relationship with his student was inappropriate on many levels, not the least of which being that he exposed himself to a possible allegation of wrongdoing by a student. I get chills thinking about the wave of supporters.

magnumpi

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 10:57 a.m.

Seems as if the leaked email is the smoking gun. Loose lips sink ships and all that. I would have thought something as sensitive as the email would have been handled with more discretion.

walker101

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 10:16 a.m.

Inappropriate behavior becoming of a teacher, what were his intentions and he understood the consequences. It's sad when you intrust in an adult to perform in a professional matter when dealing with minors. But since this is Ann Arbor the reprimand will be a slap on the risk and all will be fine. As a father and grandfather I don't want any adult regardless of how inspiring he or she may be left alone together with a minor especially male and female, if he cared so for his much for his student as his attorney claims, he should have used better judgement. Yeah he inspired all right.

Ellen

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 10:12 a.m.

I don't think that the removed post, regarding the huge age difference, was inappropriate, and I agreed with the poster. A 40 or 45-year old teacher should have healthy boundaries, and should have known better. It's a misuse of power to flirt with a young, impressionable student. Creepy.

Topher

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 10:04 a.m.

I agree with Amy Lesemann & Halima - Teachers are NOT meant to be students' friends. Going shopping, hanging out, and spending one-on-one time is bizarre and frankly creepy. This does not mean that teachers do not care about their students or act on their behalf outside of school. As Halima points out - there are safe and smart ways of acting. As a teacher myself I've dealt with situations - finding a way to help the student is important. It's just as important to do it in a safe way for everyone. A teacher acting impulsively to "save" a student should be looked at with skepticism - why does the teacher have a savior complex and what policy measures should have been followed (Not that these necessarily apply directly to Mark).

Patti Smith

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 10 a.m.

I am a teacher and there is a line that should not be crossed. For instance, I can't give the kids a ride in my car under any circumstances. So that means if I see one of my cheerleaders walkingn to school in her uniform on a -10 degree day, I just have to wave and drive by. I've had kids perk up when I say that I have a FB and email account. I always tell them, "After you graduate, we'll see but for now, no. I may love you to pieces but no...and besides, I'm pretty boring anyway!";) I've known teachers who take kids home for the weekend, give out their private cell numbers, friend them on FB...I wouldn't do that in a thousand years, personally. This whole conversation though reminds me to bring up something that should be mentioned. How would this be if the teacher was female (and say, not awfully ugly) and the student were male? I see so many double standards in the teacher-student situations when the genders are the opposite than they are in this situation.

magnumpi

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 10 a.m.

Are the supporters for this teacher going to be on Ellen?

ViSHa

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 9:29 a.m.

Good post Halima. I think getting permission and registering with schools is definitely the way one should go although I guess things could get cloudy if the student comes from a very dysfunctional home. And i agree Ms. Peng's comments are probably having the adverse effect she desired.

RunrDad

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 9:17 a.m.

I remember when I was in high school and I asked one of my teachers for a ride home. I trusted him - he was one of those funny/cool teacher's who all the students liked. He quickly said "no, can't do it". He clearly stated that it was against policies to be one on one with a student in his car - even for a 5 minute drive. At the time I thought the rule was a bit extreme. However, there was a line, and he didn't even want to go near it - much less cross it. He's still a teacher there today. Peck on the cheek? All day outings? To me, when Peng was trying to defend him, she exposed even more wrongdoing.

Halima

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 9:10 a.m.

I am a teacher and I do not believe that it is wrong to have contact outside of school with students. I do, however, have some serious questions about Mr. Mark's relationship with this particular student. The Board was correct to have begun a formal and legal inquiry. Many of us who care about students have relationships with them outside of the classroom. I can remember one particular case in which the parents of a gay student of mine were having difficulty dealing with his having come out. He felt very bad about their rejection and wanted to have a supportive adult in his life. The Mom and Dad gave me written permission to have him visit in my home, to ride in my car, and to sit with him in cafes. I submitted this written permission to the administration of the school, spoke to the administration to make sure I understood what was appropriate and what wasn't, and proceeded to act as an "extra Mom" to this young man. Eventually, the Mom and Dad came around and began acting in their parental roles as before. I still had permission to see him outside of school, but he didn't need as frequent supports. Today, he is a happy and healthy adult (25 years old), with a Masters' degree and working on a doctorate, and I see him probably three times a year. F I can think of many other examples in which caring colleagues took care of a student, sometimes even having the student move in with them. What distinguishes my case and that of the others I know from that of Mr. Mark is that we obtained parental permission and registered this with with the school. We also, in the cases I know about, helped students with whom there was no question of possible sexual motive. The case of Mr. Mark's interaction with the unnamed young woman is suspicious because it is not normal for a male teacher to take a female student to a restaurant or anything of the sort. Most male teachers would be terrified of the accusations which could be made if they were to spend a day with a female student as described in the article. The letter excerpted is even more concerning. It contains, as other posters have mentioned, language with connotations of romantic rather than teacher-pupil love. The Board was right to begin an inquiry when it had evidence such as that to contend with. Finally, Mr. Mark's current relationship with the young woman causes community discord and is itself problematic. People in Ann Arbor do not like to see a teacher "dating" a former student. If he married her according to the law, there would be a lot less concern. It seems that this gentleman, who may and may not be a fine orchestra teacher, has used poor judgement in his relationship with this young woman both when she was a student and today. To return him to the classroom without thoroughly investigating the charges would have been short-sighted for the board to have done.

Steve Pepple

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 8:58 a.m.

Several comments that included attacks against the mother for reporting the situation have been removed pending further review.

MjC

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 8:58 a.m.

"Mark saw the former student socially three times while she was at Huron, according to the document." And if this statement is true, he must be fired. Teachers hold a position of 'power' over students (assigning work, setting grades, distributing exams, providing college recommendation letters, etc.) Mark's behavior crossed the line. The school district has no way of knowing whether or not he'll repeat this behavior again (doesn't matter if this very young woman is now his girlfriend). Past behavior is a good predictor of future behavior, right? So the school board must let him go. Parents have a right to know that their children (even their teens) are being educated in a safe environment free from master manipulators and creepy teachers. Sorry Mark, but you knew better.

Amy Lesemann

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 8:42 a.m.

Mr. Mark is a superb teacher. Both of my children had him as orchestra students. HOWEVER...reading that email was extremely disturbing. Telling a student that she has "all the power in the relationship" is disturbing. A teacher should NOT be alone with a student for a day. This is a teacher with boundary issues. As a teacher myself, for 16 years, I don't know how Mr. Mark could have missed this concept as a professional. You do NOT have a social life with students. He went out to dinner with this student. Kissed her on the cheek. Totally inappropriate. I would have been very, very upset if this was my daughter. He needs to go. It's unfortunate, but true.

aajeff

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 8:20 a.m.

If even a small part of the information out there is accurate, I don't see how anyone could conclude that this teacher's behavior was at least inappropriate. A male teacher should never be spending time alone with a female student away from the school or sending personal emails. It seriously brings into question the teacher's judgement and that alone should be a reason to investigate what happened and question whether he should be in the classroom. I'm pretty sure there is more evidence than what has been published and we don't know the entire story. And the student is his girlfriend now and she has been for how long? It's interesting that blame is being placed by some on the Mother or the school board..and since he is such a "great teacher", we should think it's all okay. Geez.

RudeJude

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 8:14 a.m.

After reading portions of his e-mail to the student (linked from the word "Girlfriend" in the article), I can see the inappropriateness the school board cites. Telling a student he loved her from the day he met her, telling her she holds "full power in the relationship," begging, "don't break my heart, I can't take it." It's love letter written under the guise of a teacher passionately trying to reach a troubled student. Well, he reached her all right. It seems clear a line was crossed while Mr. Mark's now girlfriend was his teenage student. I hope the school board dismisses him and finds another passionate orchestra teacher that can keep his relationships with students in bounds.

jcj

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 8:06 a.m.

@dextermom I agree that society has made everything looked warped when it comes to an adult spending time alone with a child. BUT this was apparently not just tutoring!

jcj

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 8:03 a.m.

@DonBee We might not be in total agreement but at least on the part about his time with a student.

jcj

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 8:01 a.m.

We are in total agreement DonBee Most of the supporters irregardless of what they say now. Would NOT approve if it were their daughter! It is just too bad that we have to pay as well as those involved for his misjudgment. If this were a county commissioner drawing pay for doing nothing everyone would be up in arms!

dextermom

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 8 a.m.

DonBee - I think you missed the sarcasm in Ms Peng's comments. And as a former teacher and current mom, the fact that adults are told that being alone with a child that is not their own is a problem with our society, not the adult. The vast majority of "inappropriate contact" is within the family.

DonBee

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 7:43 a.m.

Ms. Peng is right, spending the day with a teacher alone, is inappropriate. Everyone who has to deal with children is taught that they should never be alone with a child that is not their own. The liability for doing so is potentially too high. Three social outings with the original student while she was in school and he was the teacher - if they were alone on these outings -is wrong by any stretch. Mark is probably a gifted teacher, but his actions with teenagers is not what I would want for my children. I have children headed to Huron. I am sorry to see a gifted teacher leave the school, I am sorry to see the public pay for someone to sit at home for 5 months. But, as a parent, I need to see that my children are safe in school. I am sorry for everyone involved, no one won.

ViSHa

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 7:37 a.m.

Call me a square but i can't imagine my teenage daughter spending the whole day with her single, male teacher outside of school. aside from that, i think a link with the district's policy concerning troubled/suicidal students would be nice to have included in the story. also, interesting about the "accidental" email.

braggslaw

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 7:24 a.m.

If he was sexually involved with the the girl while she was a student, he should be fired. If it happened after she graduated...they are both adults no issue.

Steve Pepple

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 7:10 a.m.

The spelling of Lauren Peng's name has been corrected in the story.

Susan Montgomery

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 7:01 a.m.

It's Lauren "Peng" not "Ping". @aaparent - Annarbor.com received the letter by accident when it was being shared with a group of orchestra parents. One parent had sent a letter to the group copying AnnArbor.com reporters to make them aware of the meeting. Another parent replied sharing the letter, he thought privately, to the parents group, unaware that the reporters were on the recipients list. Neither Mr. Mark nor his lawyer expected or wanted that letter to be made public.

aaparent

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 6:46 a.m.

Kyle & A2.com: why do you keep stating that Roumel works for Nacht Law? In other news stories, the attorney's name is mentioned without an advertising plug for the firm A2.com: Quoting Mark's supporters and how beloved he is does not explain to readers what the district policies are for teachers and staff when a student is distressed or suicidal. Can you post the district policies on this or talk to the teacher's union about what is standard procedures teachers are supposed to follow when a student is troubled. The fact that Mark is beloved, a passionate teacher, etc. is separate from whether he acted within professional boundaries and these are boundaries other teachers respect. A2.com: Did Mark's attorneys release these emails to the newspaper or was this information included in the school board packet, open for the public to read? Is there a PR campaign Mark is indirectly organizing through his attorneys to help save his professional reputation rather than keeping the details of this personnel matter private? I thought tenure proceedings were confidential unless parties involved choose to make the information public.

Joe

Thu, Dec 16, 2010 : 6:26 a.m.

How come there is no picture of the girlfriend?