aamom

Mon, Nov 14, 2011 : 3:07 a.m.

You had all weekend and you waited until 9:40 on Sunday night to start teaching your child something that you felt was important? I bet you would have had time earlier if you hadn't been busy reading 97 page reports and telling everyone how the educational sky is falling, all while your child sits there not understanding his math. No wonder our schools are failing.

A Voice of Reason

Mon, Nov 14, 2011 : 2:37 a.m.

<a href="http://www.mackinac.org/15803" rel='nofollow'>http://www.mackinac.org/15803</a> Here is the link that summarizes some of the national data. Being next to a world class university with bright students, smart people to be teachers, we should expect to be top in the nation, or at least in the top 60. I will try to get more information from NAPE. Need to go and reteach my child math because his teacher was not there to teach him math again. Most parents are reteaching at night.

A2anon

Mon, Nov 14, 2011 : 12:49 a.m.

Huh? On page 25 there is a list of math scores for different states in different years, and all are within points of each other. The national average is 240 and Michigan is 236. So what exactly are you referencing?

Jack Panitch

Sun, Nov 13, 2011 : 4:25 p.m.

Panache, huh? I'm doing a 360 looking all around, but that's gotta be me, right? The report you linked is 97 pages. Can you provide a cite to the specific data you want us to focus on? Also, if it's Michigan data and not Ann Arbor data, can you show how it translates through? That would really help focus things.

say it plain

Sun, Nov 13, 2011 : 6:29 p.m.

Fair enough, @Jack Panitch...

Jack Panitch

Sun, Nov 13, 2011 : 4:50 p.m.

Say it Plain: Different people have different levels of knowledge about the District's finances. The District has to get everyone on the same page, if we want a response that reflects the entire community's will. This is just the start of that process. So, folks need to show up and explain clearly what additional information they need and why they need it. Different segments will have different interests. Once it's clear what areas require greater focus, I would expect the District to be able to provide the level of information everyone needs to make and justify choices. There's nothing unreasonable about that. There could be a lot of excuses for the low turnout. Emphasis on the excuses. Because if you don't figure out some way to participate and provide your excellent input, you are letting someone else eat your lunch.

say it plain

Sun, Nov 13, 2011 : 3:54 p.m.

Ah, but @JackPanitch, I presume that the SBE isn't asking for people to sit around tables and brainstorm about how to cut here and there enough to add up to $14 million dollars, right?! That might require a different level of 'transparency' if the AAPS is truly *serious* about asking community members how to achieve some real cost-savings. For instance...if they asked parents/stakeholders how *they* would cut $250K from varsity sports, they might have *not* come up with the answer the Athletic Directors did when they were asked to do this without community input, and decided to just eliminate freshman sports, right?! If the parents at these round-tables could see how much freshman sports cost, and how much *all* the sports expenses were from *all* cost-centers, then they might have been able to suggest savings-measures that wouldn't have required such unpleasant back-tracking. But instead, the AAPS did what they did, and waited for &quot;pushback&quot;. If they are really interested in being responsive, they could choose instead to make these sessions *real*...perhaps the lack of actual info is what's stopping people from coming in droves to participate?!

Jack Panitch

Sat, Nov 12, 2011 : 11:21 p.m.

That's a lot of questions to pepper me with. And I'm having a tough time following you: for example, take another look at your last question and maybe rewrite it to say what you meant to say. I'm not going to guess, because that would be too dangerous. But short answer: no. For starters, the District is already providing all of the transparency information required by the SBE. There may be a better way of being transparent, but the District is doing exactly what the law requires it to do. If we want the District to move to some other method, we would have to change regulatory requirements: <a href="http://www.michigan.gov/documents/mde/Budget_Transparency_Reporting_327912_7.pdf" rel='nofollow'>http://www.michigan.gov/documents/mde/Budget_Transparency_Reporting_327912_7.pdf</a> <a href="http://www.michigan.gov/mde/0,1607,7-140-6530_6605-159882--,00.html" rel='nofollow'>http://www.michigan.gov/mde/0,1607,7-140-6530_6605-159882--,00.html</a> (the check registers were a state-wide request/initiative of the Mackinac Center <a href="http://www.showmichiganthemoney.org/10694" rel='nofollow'>http://www.showmichiganthemoney.org/10694</a> and the District's reporting appears to be in arears). And make no mistake: blogging here is no substitute for actual participation in the budget process. You have to participate for your voice to be heard: attend budget meetings and provide input, write letters, call and speak with Robert Allen, call and speak with a Trustee you may know, answer surveys, attend BOE meetings (or watch them on Channel 18). But that's not to say that the District should hide the information we, the community, need to aid us in making informed decisions, but it's also not to say that the District has ever done that in my experience. If I want answers, I ask questions, and I get real answers from real District employees in real time. See, if you participate, you can actually ask for relevant additional information, and if the request has merit, i.e., you can explain the important reason why it is needed, the District will provide it, because if they don't, the political repercussions will get out of hand. Folks who blog here but don't participate in the official process have no voice.

Gardener1

Mon, Nov 14, 2011 : 1:10 a.m.

ISD has higher wages. Remember when ISD took over the bussing, it was having to post the administrator or the busses at a higher wage than AA was paying because their administrators are paid more. For an establishment that is set up to funnel funds from the state, there is a price premium. It is another layer that is not that effective. It would be nice to know their budget!

Basic Bob

Sat, Nov 12, 2011 : 4:53 a.m.

Or let's take the opposite approach. Hire lots of people. Raises for everybody. And who will pay? I know - the unemployed, incarcerated, and homeless.

A Voice of Reason

Sun, Nov 13, 2011 : 3:41 p.m.

&quot;No one can have better&quot; when we, the tax payers are footing the bill and the teachers/administrates have guaranteed a jobs for life and have no accountability for teaching our children. We are already at the bottom Mr. Ghost. Finally our test score cuts reflect the national test and not a test which only 30% is a passing score. Why would a Gov. allow test results like this? Don't we want to know how well our schools are performing? Please think about this sir. MESSA money goes to the teacher's union which is paying their leaders $350K , owns a $1million dollar building in Ann Arbor and sneaks in 1/2 of their Union leader's salary into our budget. They make sure schools boards are full of yes men/women. The union does not train their employees to be better teachers, protects bad teachers, drug dealers, etc. Please be for the children of our town. Jennifer G. and the MEA that has stolen money from our children. Stop protecting the adults. The new Gov. is rewarding successful school districts and giving incentives vs. maintaining the status quo. We are 48th in the nation in test scores and look at the numbers 1/2 are passing our meap and &lt;10% low income/african americans. If you are interested in keeping a permanent underclass, then leave things as they are with an open check book so the teachers are always happy. Brighton school board negotiated a contact that they could not afford, and the school district did not have the mean to raise any revenue. Please look at who is really making the calls in public education. It is not the children for sure.

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Sat, Nov 12, 2011 : 3:29 a.m.

&quot;It is totally attainable. Get rid of Messa&quot; You, apparently, have not been paying attention. 1) The state just enacted a law that requires 20% contribution by the vast majority of public employees toward their health care costs. This budget projection takes that into account. 2) MESSA is a red herring. Before the 20% mandatory contribution, the AAPS contribution was the same no matter the provider. The more expensive the plan, the larger the contribution by the employee. Teachers on MESSA were paying the difference. Under the 20% plan, they'll be paying more. 3) Gotta love the logic of your post. No one can have better than you. Race to the bottom logic, just like the guv's and his bought-and-paid-for legislature. 4) The private sector has made cuts mostly by reducing its work force. The state has lost hundreds of thousands of jobs, mostly in the auto industry (yes--the auto industry's woes are somehow Jenny's fault. LOL). So why don't you find where $14 million in jobs can be cut from the AAPS. 5) The guv has stolen money from the school aid fund so as to pay for tax cuts to his buddies. Restore that money and the AAPS and most other schools in the state are not in this pinch. But don't let facts get in the way of a good fairy tale. Good Night and Good Luck

Basic Bob

Sat, Nov 12, 2011 : 4:57 a.m.

Which children outside of the district?

Steve Norton, MIPFS

Sat, Nov 12, 2011 : 6:16 a.m.

Grumpy - I put the word &quot;secret&quot; in quotes because the information was sitting there on the AAPS web site. It may have been obscure information, but it was there. I'm not sure how many people were &quot;confused&quot; by this situation other than a handful of posters on this site. Claiming that the district was keeping information secret was a clear untruth being used for political purposes. DonBee - once again, you print claims about me and my work in a public forum that are false and could be actionable. Yet you do this from behind the protection of a pseudonym. In my private sector work, I do web development and communications work for small business and nonprofits. As ED of Michigan Parents for Schools, I do grassroots lobbying work on school funding issues. As a parent and citizen of AAPS, I have volunteered to help campaign for a few millage renewals and one new tax. I have never been paid for any of the millage campaign work, and neither were any of my colleagues on the Citizens Millage Committee. Your statement strongly implies otherwise. I demand that you explain yourself and retract your wholly false accusations.

DonBee

Sat, Nov 12, 2011 : 2:53 a.m.

Mr. Norton is a marketing and communications person working with school districts to get millages passed. He wants to see both millages passed for the district.

Stephen Lange Ranzini

Mon, Nov 14, 2011 : 5:59 a.m.

@A Voice of Reason: thanks for the very interesting report! The chart of page 24 indicates that 22% of students in Michigan are &quot;Below Basic&quot; (fail) and 35% are &quot;Proficient&quot; or &quot;Advanced&quot;. The table on page 23 indicates that only the states of West Virginia, Tennessee, New Mexico, Mississippi, California, Arizona and Alabama have worse scores. That puts us tied with Alaska for 8th from the bottom. Awful!

A Voice of Reason

Sun, Nov 13, 2011 : 3:58 p.m.

Here is a link to the national report card for 4th grade math. Michigan is near the bottom next to Alaska and Alabama. Our new cut scores where changes to reflect national standards, and because Michigan does not have a choice but to get its act together! If this is success to you, then keep the status quo. <a href="http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/pdf/main2011/2012458.pdf" rel='nofollow'>http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/pdf/main2011/2012458.pdf</a>

Stephen Lange Ranzini

Sat, Nov 12, 2011 : 6 p.m.

@sh1: The State Board of Education implemented the new cut scores in a bi-partisan vote. The methodology was established as follows (from the Q&amp;A at <a href="http://www.michigan.gov/documents/mde/New_Cut_Scores_FAQ_365040_7.pdf" rel='nofollow'>http://www.michigan.gov/documents/mde/New_Cut_Scores_FAQ_365040_7.pdf</a> &quot;11. How were new cut scores established? The recommendations were the result of an intensive collaborative research study conducted by ACT, the National Center for Educational Achievement (NCEA) and the BAA Measurement Research and Psychometric unit with significant contributions from the BAA Technical Advisory Committee, Michigan's institutes of higher education, and others. The cut scores were officially established in September 2011 when the State Board of Education adopted the new cut score recommendations.&quot; Under the old MEAP scoring system, a score of 40% out of 100% was generally a passing grade. Under the new system a score of about 66% is a passing grade. 30+ years ago when I was in public school, a 40 was a F as was 56 or less, and a 66 was a D+. The standards of our public schools being too low in the past are why 21-23% of our children graduate as functional illiterates, a burden on society and unable to pay their way through life since being a productive member of the information society requires not just functional literacy but being able to use Information Technology effectively.

Basic Bob

Sat, Nov 12, 2011 : 5:04 a.m.

The problem with the old scores - it is difficult to see change when you have 95% year after year. At least we can visualize improvement with the lower scores. And you better believe there is room to improve in how we teach science to fifth graders. A successful program will show improvement (not necessarily parity) in all ethnic groups. So what are we to do about this? The answer is to spend wisely so we are free to teach effectively. These annual budget wars are not helping.

Jack Panitch

Sat, Nov 12, 2011 : 4:50 a.m.

Part of the reason for starting the discussions this early is to get everyone onto the same page. Mr. Lange Ranzini has just given us a great example of why this is so important. He misleads the reader by not providing a full explanation of the change in the cut scores. The approach has the effect of creating an emotional response and tends to disrupt the conversation. I'm not saying that's his intent, but that's certainly the effect. And actually, that's kind of a good thing at this stage of the conversation. The freer people feel to speak their minds openly, the better off we can be at rooting out misconception. By January, if we all stay focused, we will have kicked out the cobwebs and be able to engage in much higher level analysis of this material. If we can get out from behind our conspiracy theory mentality (you know who you are), we're going to find that the District is making a sincere and responsible effort to provide us all the information we need to inform ourselves and then let them know what we value most, so they, the experts, can get us to where we want to be with the painful choices that we, as a community, not AMOC, not a Voice of Reason, not DonBee, not Jack Panitch, not Steve Norton, not any of us individually, but all of us together have to make. So they need to ask for ideas, and they need to talk to us to find out what we value most, and they need to do simulations to think everything out to its nth logical conclusion in the real world and they need to come back to us with real world proposals and everything else that fell on the cutting room floor and why sufficiently in advance of June 30th to get our final community &quot;sense of the budget&quot; so that the trustees can make the best informed decisions to get something in place by June 30th. Again, to get a well-informed community discussion going, one based on reality and not fiction, one based on thoughtfulness and not misconception, you have to start the discussion early.

J. A. Pieper

Sat, Nov 12, 2011 : 1:45 a.m.

Very interesting, the district hasn't shared this with staff yet. I am not surprised though - how can a student be PROFICIENT with a skill when they get 1 out of 4 items correct? This is how the test has been graded in the past, which has been a total lie to the parents, students, and community. Now that same student has to get 3 out of 4 correct to be proficient, which makes more sense to me. What do the reading and math scores look like?

sh1

Sat, Nov 12, 2011 : 12:19 a.m.

The cuts scores are arbitrary. Don't put too much stock in them. It's just a way to make privatization look more plausible to the public.

Stephen Lange Ranzini

Fri, Nov 11, 2011 : 11:38 p.m.

@Steven Harper Piziks: 60% of the students in AAPS failed that MEAP test. It's just one illustration of a very serious problem. What are our +$180 million a year buying? Bad results for our children? You don't care? I hope you were trying to make an joke?

Steven Harper Piziks

Fri, Nov 11, 2011 : 10:54 p.m.

Who cares?

Steve Norton, MIPFS

Sat, Nov 12, 2011 : 5:09 p.m.

DonBee, I was responding to &quot;A2Hell's&quot; comment. I took that to be about central administration; perhaps I was wrong. If your argument is that we should have district-wide principal sharing, please present it as such. I think you would have found a large group of parents at that meeting quite ready to respond to that. It's not honest to talk about &quot;cutting administration,&quot; including principals and deputy superintendents, unless you are willing to specify specifically which ones you believe should be removed. Which schools do you believe should share principals? How do you pair them up? Which of the two deputy superintendents do you believe should be fired: instruction or operations? They already have a pretty small administrative team. The burden is on you to prove that those people are not needed, and to say which ones you think we can do without. Generalizations simply won't wash.

DonBee

Sat, Nov 12, 2011 : 2:50 a.m.

And building administration is....? and when you add the two together you get numbers that are way over the top on a per student basis. TIme to trim principals and deputy and assistant superintendents, as well as the consultants that are hired by the deputy and assistant superintendents. There seems to be a flock of former Southfield administrators doing consulting work in AAPS right now. I did not know Southfield was that much better of a school district that we should be learning from them.

a2edu

Wed, Nov 23, 2011 : 3:28 a.m.

The fat at Balas Administration Building is ENORMOUS. Cut there first.

DonBee

Sat, Nov 12, 2011 : 2:01 p.m.

Yes, Mr. Miller - Plymouth-Canton has one Athletic director and one assistant.

Russ Miller

Sat, Nov 12, 2011 : 4:23 a.m.

Does Plymouth Canton make do with one AD? <a href="http://pcep.pccs.k12.mi.us/athletics" rel='nofollow'>http://pcep.pccs.k12.mi.us/athletics</a> P-CEP Athletic Directors: Sue Heinzman (734) 416-2925 and Tom Willette (734) 416-7775

DonBee

Sat, Nov 12, 2011 : 2:47 a.m.

The real number is closer to $1 million dollars - At each high school, AD and Trainer comes to approximately $250,000. Please staff that is not included in this audit report as athletic costs, but rather buried in the cost of school administration. I would suggest if Plymouth-Canton can do with a single athletic director and 3 high schools with sports teams (and more students) that AAPS should be able to also. Call it $700,000 or about 5%.

Kara H

Fri, Nov 11, 2011 : 11:28 p.m.

$300K is only 2 of the ADs. With the third, it's probably more like $400K. Add each of their secretaries and trainers and it gets much larger. Anyway, simply cutting ADs isn't much of a solution, but that it's only 2.6% or whatever of the total is a silly position. Cutting school spending by this much in this economy with property values down and per pupil state funding being cut will have to be done 2% and 5% at a time. Lather, rinse, repeat until desired effect is achieved.

Steven Harper Piziks

Fri, Nov 11, 2011 : 10:52 p.m.

$350,000 is about 2.6% of $13M.

a2edu

Wed, Nov 23, 2011 : 3:27 a.m.

I agree completely. When the public finally finds out how much this community spends on failed administrators, communications directors, art &amp; music coordinators - all who are totally unnecessary, and have NOTHING to do with student achievement, there will be demands for cutting at Balas. This community needs to elect better school board members who are able to address this major problem.

Kara H

Fri, Nov 11, 2011 : 11:20 p.m.

@stephen: I agree. I wrote to the school district to inquire about the audited financial report for 10/11 and if it was available for review in preparation for these forums, but not surprisingly received no response. But I'm with you, I can't see the point of forums/meetings to talk about the next budget until the previous full one is closed out and the actuals are available. It does kind of smack of being a PR stunt and little else.

DonBee

Sat, Nov 12, 2011 : 2 p.m.

Russ Miller - The transfer money and how it is spent is detailed. In the audit, the balance of the $15 to 17 million spent on sports, sports facilities, and sports transportation is not. Nor is the reduced class load that some coaches get included in that break down or the staff that is in the building administration included. So you have the detail of the surface of the ice berg, but not the rest of it.

Russ Miller

Sat, Nov 12, 2011 : 4:53 a.m.

DonBee - Annual financial reports have been posted for years on the AAPS site and the detailed athletic fund expenditures go back to at least the 05-06 school year. You've repeatedly raised the issue of Booster funds. Those aren't paid by the district, so what's the problem? The booster organizations are separate 501c(3) organizations with non-secret annual IRS form 990's on file if you want to know how much money is involved. They serve as account holders for some club teams and offer limited fundraising opportunities to teams by working consessions, etc. The 2010-11 report doesn't include pay to participate revenue because the fees hadn't been imposed yet. The insurance benefit fee revenue is shown. I believe transportation costs are included in the report. For the sports my kids have been involved with at Huron I'm certain that they are. Finally, I too would like to see a breakout for maintenance costs. Tell us about teaching overtime related to athletics, and what makes you believe that it's is not included in the athletic fund?

DonBee

Sat, Nov 12, 2011 : 2:44 a.m.

Yes, Steve this is how the spend the $3 million from the general fund. It does NOT include booster money, fees from students to play, cost of field maintenance, sinking fund and bond fund spending on athletics. Overtime, reducing in class load for coaches, bussing to games, etc. It is however better than any previous report, because is shows at least 10 percent of the money spend on Varsity sports. Now get the district to give us the rest of the spending and we will have something to discuss.

Kara H

Fri, Nov 11, 2011 : 11:12 p.m.

I'm glad you found that. I was going to post the link for you once I got done with work for the day. If people back up just one level in the URL provided, they can download audited Financial Reports for the past several years. <a href="http://www.aaps.k12.mi.us/aaps/admin.bussvcs/documents_and_publications" rel='nofollow'>http://www.aaps.k12.mi.us/aaps/admin.bussvcs/documents_and_publications</a> It also links to the check registers that Stephen mentions below, but as he also points out, they're not up to date. IMHO, only the audited Financial Reports are worth the effort to analyze. The &quot;User Friendly&quot; budget format is difficult to follow, not detailed enough, and folds too many expenses into too few overarching categories.

a2edu

Wed, Nov 23, 2011 : 3:22 a.m.

As an employee in the district, I can tell you that she stays at the Balas building. We've not seen her in the schools. She is surrounded by Balas lackeys who no doubt have bent her ear. It's like the blind leading the blind over there.

thecompound

Fri, Nov 11, 2011 : 7:40 p.m.

Completely agree. I would be curious to know if people on the &quot;inside&quot;, i.e. teachers, etc...feel Green is living up to her salary/expectations? Are there things we, the public, don't see that she is doing? Personally I think these parent/public forums are a way of stroking the public to make it look like they are willing to try anything, when in fact they are not, just my personal opinion.

a2edu

Wed, Nov 23, 2011 : 3:18 a.m.

Balas will fight tooth and nail to make sure this info does not get out.

say it plain

Fri, Nov 11, 2011 : 6:28 p.m.

Right, like the ones who do all the extra-curriculars we never are allowed to see the spending on!

AMOC

Sat, Nov 12, 2011 : 3:07 a.m.

Ann Arbor's gifted and talented kids from poor and working class families rely on on our pubic schools to appropriately develop their talents. Those families can't afford the excellent private schools catering to gifted kids from affluent families. High school is too late to differentiate; too many kids have shut down for lack of challenge. As a matter of equity, we need a free, transportation-provided gifted and talented program in Ann Arbor. Plymouth-Canton can afford an excellent program, on $1k less per student than Ann Arbor gets. Why?

A2comments

Fri, Nov 11, 2011 : 8:51 p.m.

State and Federal guidelines give schools incentives to bring people UP to the average, i.e. work with students that are having issues. That's why we have a high number of teachers/aides to deal with students with problems. Having programs to work with gifted students get little focus. In another state, we got so disgusted with this that we skipped our child over 6th grade, at the objection of his elementary school principal, but with full support of his new middle school principal. He thrived on the challenge, and attended Huron High and found a great selection of AP and advanced courses to pick from. Students can also take a class if they qualify at WCC, and Calc is often taken there, and mostly paid for by the high school (because that level isn't offered in our schools).

Tony Livingston

Fri, Nov 11, 2011 : 8:15 p.m.

I would agree that a gifted and talented program would be really helpful. And yes, there are a lot of gifted and very smart and talented students in Ann Arbor and many, many, many of them are in AAPS high schools. Ann Arbor draws some of the smartest and most talented people in the world so it makes sense that there would be a large group of very talented students here also. But, I cannot imagine administering something like this --- who gets in and who doesn't. Talk about unhappy parents to deal with.

Kara H

Fri, Nov 11, 2011 : 8:10 p.m.

So now we're Lake Wobegon, &quot;where all the children are above average&quot; ? :-) I'm OK educating all our kids equally well. Just want to make sure we're doing that at least.

say it plain

Fri, Nov 11, 2011 : 6:27 p.m.

It is kind of odd that in such an 'above average' kinda town as Ann Arbor, we can't seem to work out a place in the public schools for all those gifted children we breed here ;-) They manage it in other cities somehow...

a2edu

Wed, Nov 23, 2011 : 3:15 a.m.

This is the elephant in the room. For the life of me, I cannot understand why this community doesn't demand the firing of half the employees at Balas. We'd save 6-8 million right there. . . . . and I bet student achievement would actually go up.

say it plain

Sat, Nov 12, 2011 : 2:11 a.m.

I agree that counselors need to help students with their schedules, @Steven Harper Piziks, but it seems for some reason that this is close to *all* they do sometimes...they hardly schedule time to get to know the kids or talk to them about larger plans and strategies for taking courses, graduating, etc., unless a problem arises. Really, in part, I suspect that it's because they have too much busywork to do and are handed too many kids per counselor to even make it feasible to get to know the kids--at least at the comprehensive high schools in town. Community gets much much better counseling, for a number of reasons.

Steven Harper Piziks

Fri, Nov 11, 2011 : 10:44 p.m.

Uh . . . schools =do= use a computer program to schedule students. But someone has to talk to the students and figure out what class to put them in. (&quot;Kiddo, you failed a semester of English, and now you have to make it up. Your schedule currently has you in a music class, but we'll have to give you a repeat English class instead. Except there isn't such a class during your music class, so let's see . . . we can move you into a fourth hour math class instead--oh, no, wait--that class is full. How about we try . . . &quot; You can't do this with just a computer program.

Anonymous

Fri, Nov 11, 2011 : 10:17 p.m.

High school or middle school counselors aren't supposed to do schedules. Ann Arbor is one of the few districts that requires it's counselors to have a teachers certification and also one of the few districts that treat them like school counselors. They do more scheduling than counseling! Counselors are extremely needed to help counsel kids. I'm in agreement, get a computer program to schedule kids in classes and let counselors do the jobs they are trained to do!

A2comments

Fri, Nov 11, 2011 : 8:46 p.m.

High School Counselors replaced by computers? Really? You clearly don't know what a counselor is supposed to do all day. That said, one of our children attended Huron, and they had way TOO FEW counselors for the kids, the ratio was absurd. The counselor got nothing done on time, was ill-prepared for any type of discussion, and at graduation it was embarrassing that she had to read the names off a list, and mispronounce them, because she didn't know her kids (the other counselor did know his kids). This isn't a problem limited to AAPS. In another state we experienced the same issue, counselors are poorly suited for the job, and often hold other positions (like a coach of a team), and can't begin to give good advice to the students, especially where college is concerned.

say it plain

Fri, Nov 11, 2011 : 6:25 p.m.

No, high school *counselors* are desperately needed... But you're right...currently, apparently, way too much effort seems to be spent working out the problems/intricacies with coordinating students' schedules! Counselors would be much better utilized getting to know the students well enough to advise/counsel them!

local

Sat, Nov 12, 2011 : 2:39 p.m.

not charging to attend. charging to apply to attend. We have to weed out the truly gifted and talented, and it cost to have someone administer and score a test to check for that.

J. A. Pieper

Sat, Nov 12, 2011 : 1:31 a.m.

AAPS won't do this, they cut their gifted and talented program years ago, they also cut out having class rankings at the HS levels (there is no first in class, etc., you are just in the top 5 % or whatever), they lowered the entry point for National Honor Society, they won't have a developmental kindergarten, why? Because there is a lack of students in these areas from one culture...

Steve Norton, MIPFS

Fri, Nov 11, 2011 : 9:57 p.m.

That would violate the state Constitution's requirement that it provide a &quot;free and adequate&quot; public education. Can't charge tuition to attend.

Kara H

Fri, Nov 11, 2011 : 5:58 p.m.

Amen! I mean, Arg!

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Sun, Nov 13, 2011 : 5:27 p.m.

&quot;I have copies of all the material used in the budget session in front of me, I believe AMOC correctly stated the situation.&quot; This statement, of course, presumes that you are representing their content accurately. Given your misrepresentation of an article you linked in another sub-thread in this discussion regarding lawsuits over state funding of education, I think it highly likely that your understanding of those documents is not correct. Good Night and Good Luck

DonBee

Sun, Nov 13, 2011 : 1:54 p.m.

I have copies of all the material used in the budget session in front of me, I believe AMOC correctly stated the situation.

Steve Norton, MIPFS

Sat, Nov 12, 2011 : 5:04 p.m.

Actually, we also had extracts from the 09-10 audit report on the table with plenty of detail. But fear not, it's on the web site in full.

AMOC

Sat, Nov 12, 2011 : 2:49 a.m.

Grumpy – The question sheet asked if the info given was clear and sufficient. The facilitator at our table reported that our group wanted more detail on a long list of specific expenses. I hope the more-detailed "Audited Budget" format will be available for the meetings planned for spring of 2012. Last night we didn't even have the User Friendly Budget from this year on the tables, just a few pie charts showing very broad categories of costs and general fund revenue estimates. TheCompound – I have formal training and a lot of experience in small-group facilitation and process development. I strongly believe that AAPS's practice of using their staff to facilitate the discussion and record the input of community members has led to "steering" the discussions and selective recording or editing of comments from the community members who participated in this and previous forums. I further believe that parents self-censor their comments when their kids' teacher, coach, or principal is at the table or at the meeting. I said as much to Superintendent Green last night after the meeting.

Stephen Lange Ranzini

Fri, Nov 11, 2011 : 10 p.m.

@Grumpy: Your answer is in my post below.

thecompound

Fri, Nov 11, 2011 : 9:02 p.m.

@AMOC, did you feel that by having half those attending being AAPS employees altered or influenced the discussions? In another comment section someone mentioned they thought having a parent or non-AAPS employee taking notes would be better so as to not steer the conversation in a different direction. Did you feel that was happening at all? I appreciate your feedback, I was not aware of this budget forum but am aware of the one next week.

A2comments

Fri, Nov 11, 2011 : 8:43 p.m.

Did you ask the direct question of Ms. Green - &quot;Will you show us the expenses that make up this big number, that disguise how top-heavy our district still is and obscures athletic department numbers&quot;? Or are you just stating that they still aren't tell us this info?

cette

Fri, Nov 11, 2011 : 6:33 p.m.

I think your point about not detailing sinking fund expenditures, special ed, federal grant funs and outside agency grants is these are variable costs and income, nothing is for sure about them. Who knows how much special ed kids will cost, who knows if they will get grant money? Sinking funds are set I believe, and are assigned to particular areas, building for instance. What's really is left is people salaries, once busing is cut and athletics. The thing about cutting busing is that it will begin to affect some kids attendence. Leaving where it is is probably best case. Most schools are big and need two principals, and some schools need different principals than the ones they have, but that's a different story.

Grumpy

Fri, Nov 11, 2011 : 2:45 p.m.

AMOC, I'm curious what the administrator's response was to your (and Ron Granger's) point in paragraph #2 in your post above. Did they indicate they were currently working on providing complete transparency to the taxpayers? Or did your point fall on deaf ears?

DonBee

Sun, Nov 13, 2011 : 1:53 p.m.

Mr. Norton - knowing what I know about Community and other buildings, having spent time in them, really looking at the energy infrastructure, that $11 million could have made a big, difference. But, no we spent it on Athletics instead. Each choice on how each piece of the budget is spent has an impact on the rest of the budget. For instance the decision to build a comprehensive, instead of a magnet high school. The decision to spend &quot;left over&quot; sinking fund and bond money on Athletics facilities, instead of energy efficiency or for technology - that the district is now crying poor about (and yes, some of the bond money and sinking fund money could have gone for data center upgrades, and backbone upgrades - maybe not laptops). Treating each piece of the budget, as if it has no impact on the others, your method, causes larger and larger structural problems in the district. Only a holistic look at the spending makes sense. Because there are impacts. The whole $220 million plus is the budget for AAPS, not the $180 million that the &quot;we need more money&quot; folks want to claim. That other $40 million does have an impact on how the first $180 million has to be spent in the future. I am on topic.

Steve Norton, MIPFS

Sun, Nov 13, 2011 : 6:35 a.m.

Actually, my understanding is that the district had an energy efficiency program that was generating savings, as well as using the sinking fund for numerous capital upgrades that would cut energy use and repair costs (new boilers, and so on). Why do you assume that whatever was spent on athletic facilities came at the expense of other improvements? I also seem to remember that dramatic cuts to district-paid athletic busing were implemented for this year as well, though I cannot recall the precise details. Finally, I also understood Skyline as a solution to the overcrowding problem at Pioneer (in particular) and at Huron - that's certainly why I voted for the bond. And that has actually come to pass. I don't think there was any conspiracy to build a bigger school just to have more athletics. I'm not necessarily defending high levels of spending on varsity sports, but we need to stay on topic here. It's the general fund that's in deficit, and the solutions need to come from the GF, new revenue, or shifting anything we can out of the GF and onto other revenue streams (capital expenditures).

DonBee

Sun, Nov 13, 2011 : 3:24 a.m.

Mr Norton - Again not true. You want to purely focus on the general fund and claim it is insufficient, you desire to ignore the other 30+ million dollars a year the district gets. If that $11 million this year had been spent on energy efficiency and AAPS had gotten the same level of results as other districts, the structural deficit would have been reduced by approximately 7 percent of that 11 million or $770,000 a year. But instead it was spent on grandstands, weight rooms, and changing rooms. So we the taxpayers have to find an additional $770,000 a year in the general fund. If we had built Skyline as a magnet school (the majority choice of the people in the two forums I attended) it would be 70% small in volume (no gym, etc) and would cost less to staff and run. But, the administration decided that Athletics were too important. The magnet programs promised and the new staffing of only 19 (the promise of the then administration) new staff members have never been kept. Overtime for grounds keeping, custodial services, support staff for the athletic directors, buses to away games are not in the transfer to the athletic fund, but come out of school budgets - as far as anything public indicates. In total we are probably looking at Athletics eating more like $5 to 7 million of the general fund and another 5 million or so a year of sinking and bond fund money - which could reduce energy use by about $300,000 a year. But, why let facts get in the way?

Steve Norton, MIPFS

Sat, Nov 12, 2011 : 5:02 p.m.

DonBee, the only thing that is relevant to the topic of this article - how to close the general fund deficit - is the amount of general fund money that goes to athletics. If you want to question our community's love of varsity sports, by all means do. But recognize that it is a separate question. Just because the AAPS admins have not had time to slice and dice data to your specifications does not mean that things are not transparent. We have the GF numbers we need for the budget discussion.

DonBee

Sat, Nov 12, 2011 : 1:53 p.m.

This is the transfer from the general fund. There is a lot more that gets spent on Athletics. 1) Over $11 million of sinking fund and bond money in 2011 2) Booster money of an untold amount for various sports (AAPS has twice refused FOIA requests on this point) 3) Custodial overtime and grounds keeping costs 4) Staff costs for the Athletic Directors (in the building administration rather than the transfer from general fund) 5) busing to away games 6) etc. The last estimate that was worked up was that Athletics at AAPS was more than $20 million a year, all in from all sources.

Brian Kuehn

Sat, Nov 12, 2011 : 12:07 a.m.

Thanks, Steve. I never would have found that display of data on my own. So it looks like roughly $3,000,000 of direct expense for varsity sports. A starting point any way.

Steven Harper Piziks

Fri, Nov 11, 2011 : 10:51 p.m.

Why are you so hung up on bowling? $19,000 is about .14% of $13M.

Steve Norton, MIPFS

Fri, Nov 11, 2011 : 9:54 p.m.

I invite you to look at the most recent (2009-10) annual audit report, where on page 59 and following you will see revenues and expenditures for each sport at each high school. Boys and Girls bowling at Huron cost $19,309 that year. Last year's audit report should be out next week or so. <a href="http://www.a2schools.org/admin.bussvcs/files/aapsfinancialreport0910.pdf" rel='nofollow'>http://www.a2schools.org/admin.bussvcs/files/aapsfinancialreport0910.pdf</a>

Steve Norton, MIPFS

Fri, Nov 11, 2011 : 9:47 p.m.

It's true: the taxation of pensions, cuts to the EITC, elimination of deductions and other such changes roughly covered the state budget deficit. The cuts to K-12 so that the school aid fund could cover a lot of university and community college funding were to cover the huge tax cut that results from phasing out the MBT. They chose tax cuts to business over education spending, and were pretty explicit about it at the time.

A2anon

Fri, Nov 11, 2011 : 5:26 p.m.

Lansing took the K-12 money and gave it to higher ed, who has the ability to raise money in other ways. They then took the higher ed money to pay for the big tax cuts to businesses. I disagree with choices completely.

Basic Bob

Fri, Nov 11, 2011 : 4:22 p.m.

I think it would be great if Lansing restored the school money. But who is going to restore the tax receipts to them to pay for it? Local funding works great in Ann Arbor with its high property values, but consider the impact that would have on less affluent communities in the state. I personally don't think it's fair for Detroit and Flint to fail because they can't collect the same tax we do. Maybe for some this is a tea party issue, but mostly it's just how it is.

KJMClark

Sun, Nov 13, 2011 : 1:42 p.m.

Just as good - email the Board with your ideas: <a href="http://www.aaps.k12.mi.us/aaps/boe.home/board_member_contact_information" rel='nofollow'>http://www.aaps.k12.mi.us/aaps/boe.home/board_member_contact_information</a> They even have a handy email-them-all-at-once email address: boe@aaps.k12.mi.us

AMOC

Fri, Nov 11, 2011 : 2:40 p.m.

Actually, I believe some of the people responsible for the decisions do read this site. Last night, school board trust school Glenn Nelson read from a list of suggestions that sounded like a print-out of previous-article comments from AA.com

Basic Bob

Fri, Nov 11, 2011 : 4:16 p.m.

After trimming the buses in my neighborhood, they had to immediately add them back in. You see, kids in my neighborhood use the bus to get to school. (except for the one professor's kid who gets to use Daddy's car) What alternative would you suggest for students who live 7 miles from school and 3 miles from the nearest AATA stop?

justcary

Thu, Apr 19, 2012 : 3:15 a.m.

Lead balloon indeed. Families will stampede for the charter schools. Arts are superacademic, not extracurricular. They integrate the various intelligences, foster critical thinkers, and add the fourth R: relevance of education.

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Sun, Nov 13, 2011 : 2:06 p.m.

@DonBee: Do you ever actually READ the links you provide before you post them? The article you link has strongly suggests that the former system would pass muster. Let me explain. The article starts by pointing out that in the recent past 20 states had had their educational funding model thrown out as unconstitutional ACCORDING TO THEIR STATE'S CONSTITUTION. Also, it is worth noting that 9 of the 20 states are southern states, a region whose history of under-funding public education is well know and, of the other 11, 7 are states with very small minority populations (e.g., Wyoming), so I doubt the NAACP (your original post) was at issue there. But the core of the article was this: that those state constitutions required either an "adequate," "basic," or "thorough and efficient" education for all children and if the STATE did not provide one it was found to have violated ITS OWN constitution. The Michigan Consitution requires none of the above. Article Eight Section 1 reads: Religion, morality and knowledge being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be ENCOURAGED. Nope, the article you posted is not about our state. But even if it were, there is nothing in it to suggest that what one local school district levies for its own operation in any way comes to bear on what any other local school district levies for theirs. In that case, the Milliken precedent controls, because that is exactly what was at issue there. So, thanks for pointing out that article. Proves my point, actually. GN&amp;GL

DonBee

Sun, Nov 13, 2011 : 3:16 a.m.

Christopher Berry is assistant professor at the Harris School of Public Policy at the University of Chicago. Charles Wysong is a student at Stanford Law School. Disagree with you Ghost, sorry. Check out: <a href="http://educationnext.org/school-finance-reform-in-red-and-blue/" rel='nofollow'>http://educationnext.org/school-finance-reform-in-red-and-blue/</a> In 20 states lawsuits have succeed on school finance and in almost every case it dealt with discrimination against low income schools.

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Sat, Nov 12, 2011 : 6:56 p.m.

&quot;Returning to local taxation to run each school district is discriminatory and will get the Federal Government involved in running our schools and distributing the funds for the schools. &quot; You can, of course, cite case law that substantiates this ridiculous statement? Because, were it true, there'd already have been a suit filed because, on a per pupil basis, the state gives more money to A2 than it does to Detroit. If the state can get away with such inequities, there is no way that it is the responsibility of one school district to hold itself to what another district can or cannot do. This is the finding of the Supreme Court in Milliken v. Bradley (1974). Though the issue in that case was cross-district busing, its logic hold here. So, no, returning the state to local funding holds ZERO chance of a federal lawsuit being filed, much less won. Good Night and Good Luck

DonBee

Sat, Nov 12, 2011 : 1:49 p.m.

johnnya2 - Sorry Returning to local taxation to run each school district is discriminatory and will get the Federal Government involved in running our schools and distributing the funds for the schools. I number of states were sued successfully on this point by groups like the NAACP. Proposition A was designed to offer some local enhancement, while keeping things close enough to avoid federal oversight.

johnnya2

Sat, Nov 12, 2011 : 1:10 a.m.

@thecompound We CAN have both, it is just moronic voters through the rest of the state who decide a community like Ann Arbor can not determine what tax rate is best for their school system. Music, drama, the arts, and physical fitness ARE part of a well rounded education. I wonder how the people who advocate the three R's think that will prepare a student for the future. There are no computer classes in the three R's. In fact, is reading Shakespeare any more valuable in the real world than playing Mozart? Is writing a paper on the symbolism of Moby Dick more valuable than learning how the human body works? Is learning quadratic equations any more valuable than learning how to make Excel spread sheets?

thecompound

Fri, Nov 11, 2011 : 7:42 p.m.

@ Steve, while I agree with the sentiment, I guess we need to decide what is more important for the disadvantaged, the enrichments or reasonable class sizes, etc...It appears we can no longer have both.

Steve in MI

Fri, Nov 11, 2011 : 2:57 p.m.

&quot;Pay to play&quot; is a very bad way to save money, and a very good way to widen the achievement gap between students from poorer families and students from wealthier families. Students who are active in sports and extracurriculars do better in school, period. Students from poorer families already enter school at a disadvantage; we spend HUGE sums of money trying to close that gap. Making it harder for those students to access the enrichment programs that can help them would undercut the academic support efforts that the schools are rightly making for at-risk students.

AMOC

Fri, Nov 11, 2011 : 2:36 p.m.

AAPS sports teams are already pay-to-play, although the fees don't come close to covering the costs of facilities and coaches'. I found out at the budget forum last night that Skyline's choir, bands and drama groups also &quot;pay to play&quot; through a booster club, the &quot;Skyline Friends of the Arts&quot;. There are, and should be, classes during the school day in music, drama, literature and art, as well as &quot;physical education&quot;. Those disciplines are part of what it means to be educated. We can and should keep those classes, even if all the funds for sports, after-school clubs and extra-curricular activities are raised privately.

alan

Fri, Nov 11, 2011 : 2:09 p.m.

Many believe that band, drama, and art are just as much of a well rounded education as the 3 R's and are not extra-curricular. Maybe not specific sports, but physical fitness also.

eom

Sat, Nov 12, 2011 : 4:01 a.m.

I'm confused, I didn't realize the Ann Arbor teachers were given lunch every day. Huh. I must have missed the memo, as I've been providing my own lunch for the past 15 years. If you eat a school lunch, you PAY for the school lunch. Seriously? You think they give us lunch every day?

thecompound

Sat, Nov 12, 2011 : 12:40 a.m.

I highly doubt that teachers and administrators eat the slop that they are passing off as food.

Andy Price

Fri, Nov 11, 2011 : 10:02 p.m.

yeah, that's not $14 million though. Not even close.

sh1

Fri, Nov 11, 2011 : 2:01 p.m.

Do you really think teachers and administrators don't already pay for their own lunches?

Steve in MI

Fri, Nov 11, 2011 : 2:52 p.m.

@CBG - we have them, we just don't make a public display of worshipping them or forcing non-religious people to say &quot;one nation under god&quot; every morning.

Charlie Brown's Ghost

Fri, Nov 11, 2011 : 2:20 p.m.

It's Ann Arbor. Most households don't have American flags.

johnnya2

Sat, Nov 12, 2011 : 1:02 a.m.

Food has already been taken out of the equation. it actually MAKES money for the district. So if you do that, the gap is larger than 14 million. Eliminating bus service is the mentality of the wealthy or those with automobiles. EVERY citizen has a right to an education, not just those who were born to a family that can afford a car or transportation.

Steve Norton, MIPFS

Fri, Nov 11, 2011 : 9:42 p.m.

In any case, food service has already been outsourced and no longer represents a cost to the district (I believe) since Chartwells covers their costs from the price of food. Students receiving free and reduced lunch are generally covered by Federal and State grants.

Blerg

Fri, Nov 11, 2011 : 2:45 p.m.

Getting rid of lunch isn't an option; uou obviously have no idea how many AAPS students get a free or reduced price lunch (or breakfast in come cases!).

AMOC

Fri, Nov 11, 2011 : 2:13 p.m.

Superintendent Green was at the meeting. In person. She was still there when I left, and there was evidence when I arrived that there had been a pre-meeting of the AAPS presenters and &quot;discussion facilitators&quot;.

justcary

Thu, Apr 19, 2012 : 3:10 a.m.

Teachers would have to teach every hour and the fifth day would be their preparatory day. The buildings would have to be open. fugeddaboutit.

AMOC

Sat, Nov 12, 2011 : 2:01 a.m.

Less than 20% and more than 5% of busing, heating and lighting expenses, and cleaning/custodian wages. Not even close to enough by itself, but every little bit helps.

sh1

Sat, Nov 12, 2011 : 12:12 a.m.

There would be transportation and custodial savings, though don't know how much.

Steve Norton, MIPFS

Fri, Nov 11, 2011 : 9:41 p.m.

Not much, since the state mandates the number of days/hours of schooling each year. Cut the week, and you'd have to extend the day. Would probably be a near wash.

justcary

Thu, Apr 19, 2012 : 3:08 a.m.

a2edu nails it. They held meetings to brainstorm Middle School Restructuring and it became clear that the plan was already laid. They intended to remove the Advisory program from middle schools; calculated it would save X; then told the public &quot;we must shave X from the middle school budget, please give us your ideas.&quot;

a2edu

Wed, Nov 23, 2011 : 3:11 a.m.

AAPS has a long (and not so proud) history of asking for input and then disregarding it because the decision has already been made. Why attend a meeting that deals with chump change issues when HUGE structural cuts need to happen? I think the low turnout is because Ann Arborites are hip to this sort of posturing by AAPS administrators.

KJMClark

Sun, Nov 13, 2011 : 1:38 p.m.

Two points to make here - the budget forum was the very first thing on this week's Clague Newsletter, and the administration sent out another email on the fifth on MEAP testing and the budget forums. So if you have a student in the district, you probably did get something about it. But in fairness to us parents, they buried the forums under the &quot;MEAP&quot; headline, and most of us probably just trashed that email. Second, it's darned hard for a number of us parents with two or more kids in the district to make it to things like that, particularly when you have kids at different schools. Besides, these forums are largely a waste of time. You can have a much bigger impact by just sending email to the school Board, and then you don't have to worry about the administration spinning your comment when they report it back to the Board.

johnnya2

Sat, Nov 12, 2011 : 12:59 a.m.

Marilyn asked, &quot;How do you think the word should get out? &quot; If only they would invent something that allows people to send messages electronically to each other. They could call it electronic mail, but shorten it to email. Or they could invent a service that takes information to each persons home. They could deliver these items 6 days a week. To quote John Lennon, &quot;Maybe I'm just a dreamer, but I'm not the only one&quot;

Marilyn Wilkie

Fri, Nov 11, 2011 : 5:54 p.m.

AMOC, thanks for explaining that. How do you think the word should get out? It seems to me that just about everyone in town used to read the Ann Arbor News at one time. Now, I'm not so sure they have transferred over to AA.com

AMOC

Fri, Nov 11, 2011 : 2:11 p.m.

It wasn't even 60 parents. Around half of the people at this event were AAPS employees. Part of the problem was that there was no AAPS announcement of the forum to all AAPS parents. Only the most dedicated and involved parent group officers would have heard of this in time to plan for childcare, etc. Or people who read the announcement here 2 weeks ago.

johnnya2

Sat, Nov 12, 2011 : 12:55 a.m.

Yeah, leaving kids to their own devices is a good move. I know there has never been a high school age kid who did anything stupid like do drugs, drink and drive, have unprotected sex, poop on their rivals football field. If this is a solution, the cost off the resulting issues will car exceed $14 million

Andy Price

Fri, Nov 11, 2011 : 10:49 p.m.

Yeah, because 14-18 years olds can be left unattended with no problems whatsoever. Ask a teacher if this isn't an ignorant suggestion.

Steven Harper Piziks

Fri, Nov 11, 2011 : 10:32 p.m.

And who would oversee the students in the study hall in the cafeteria . . . ?