Snyder: Fire ineffective teachers after two years of poor performance

Posted on Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 11:06 a.m.

Snyder: Fire ineffective teachers after two years of poor performance

By Kyle Feldscher

This story has been updated.

Gov. Rick Snyder proposed sweeping changes to numerous areas of Michigan’s education system Wednesday, measures he believes will take the state into the 21st century.

Calling Michigan’s educational system “broken,” Snyder proposed major reforms to teacher tenure and pay as well as changes to early childhood education, a loosening of some limits on charter schools in the state and expansion of the state's schools of choice program. Snyder said his plan would help update an education system still set on graduating students from high school to work on an assembly line.

Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder proposed sweeping reforms to teacher tenure and other aspects of the state's educational system this morning.

“The benchmark for success in our educational system is how do you go through K-12 and get that high school diploma,” Snyder said. “How do you get that high school diploma and have that huge party that says you are now prepared for life? That worked really well for some time, but again the world has evolved and now we’re in a position to say we’re in an age of technology.”

In his speech, Snyder emphasized a performance- and results-based system for many aspects of the educational system, including funding, teacher compensation and changes to tenure.

In his proposal to change teacher tenure, Snyder outlined a model rewarding multiple years of successful teaching. He said teachers who showed continuous growth for three years in a five-year probationary period would be awarded tenure. However, tenured teachers who were found ineffective for one year could start losing tenure status and if they were ineffective for two straight school years, teachers could be replaced.

“After two or three years of ineffective teaching, someone should find a new profession,” Snyder said.

Snyder called on state universities to improve their teaching programs and said state teaching certification tests should further prepare teachers leaving college for the job. He said teachers deserve more recognition in terms of compensation, saying the teacher pay system needs to evolve from compensation based on degrees attained and time working as a teacher to one based on performance.

Snyder said he would work with the state board of education to create a category for “master teachers” to keep those in the profession in the classroom as opposed to being steered into administrative positions.

Snyder said he wanted to work with statewide unions and teachers to bring about these changes.

“I’m always open to working with people. The issue here is not picking a fight; it’s not that old win-lose attitude that we’ve had too much in our state,” he said. “It’s about solving a problem. If anything, I would hope in particular the teachers themselves would help solve this problem.”

In his address, Snyder also proposed increasing the number of charter schools in the state.

He said he did not want to lift the cap on charter schools entirely, but did want to lift the cap on charter schools in districts with failing schools. Snyder said he wants to encourage high-performing charter schools and hold them to the same standard that he would hold public schools.

Snyder also said he wants to expand the state’s Schools of Choice program.

He said all school districts should allow the program and families should have the freedom to choose the district they want.

“If they have the space available and they’ve made it clear they have space, after they take care of their in-district needs they should be open to taking kids from other districts,” he said. “They shouldn’t be able to say those kids can’t come.”

Snyder also proposed changes to the way intermediate school districts operate, saying he wanted to give intermediate school districts the ability to bid on non-instructional services in any school district.

John Austin, president of the state Board of Education, said he was pleased Snyder took on so many of the board’s recommendations and he looked forward to working with board members to define many of the proposals laid out in the governor’s address.

“Now, we have a lot of specific work to do to help implement,” he said. “We have to design what it means to have a teacher preparation program that delivers teachers who are very effective in raising student achievement, we have to design the process for evaluating teachers on the job in a fair and appropriate way to help them build their skills.

“We’ve got a lot of assignments but they’re assignments we’ll happily take because we asked for them.”

Among other reforms proposed by Snyder were anti-bullying legislation and increased flexibility in school programs to help high-achieving students be challenged.

Kyle Feldscher covers K-12 education for AnnArbor.com. He can be reached at kylefeldscher@annarbor.com or you can follow him on Twitter.

Comments

15crown00

Fri, Apr 29, 2011 : 5:24 p.m.

almost all politicians are bad including Snyder let's use these vague standards to fire them after 6 months. who will set the standards for teachers?probably the lying,stealing,cheating politicians.that's like letting a thief decide how long other thieves should spend in prison.how u gonna find an unbiased person (or unbiased people)to make the call. having said that people who can't or don't do their jobs certainly should not keep them and it makes no difference what job they have.then we get right back to the problem of who decides and on what basis?

Live with Art

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 4:01 p.m.

Why is it so difficult for a "business man" to see that you get what you pay for, and that part of the ills of education is that not all parents take responsibility for promoting it at home? What will entice the best and brightest into a profession where you can expect to be blamed for students not achieving state goals, you can expect cuts to pay and benefits, and you are thought of less than the guy that hits, throws or kicks a ball. Add to that Snyder's wanting to make rules that judge performance and it is the students who will suffer the most. How are you going to determine if a teacher is a "good" or "bad" teacher if they have students who have Individualized Education Programs, IEP's or 504 Plans in their classes? What if parents are absent much of the time from the child's life due to having to work or a broken homes? Lack of parental involvement has been shown to have averse effects on student achievement. If these students don't meet the state standards for their age group are you truly firing a "bad" teacher? How, if a instructor is being judged as "good" by out- performing other instructors, would they not be "cutting their own throats" by sharing their outstanding lesson plans with others? Doing anything to cause the hording of excellence does not seem like a scenario that you would want to encourage. In every other profession getting more training is considered a "good" thing, one that will give you more expertise in your field. Yet Snyder says, "the teacher pay system needs to evolve from compensation based on degrees attained." (AnnArbor.com, 4-27-2011) So they shouldn't improve themselves, or they just shouldn't expect to be rewarded for improvements? How is a teachers performance not tied to their own education? And if continuing your own training is not a way to improve performance, what is?

DonBee

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 11:04 p.m.

So I guess you did not read the letter Live with Art. Since you completely ignore the Early Childhood and the k-3 initiatives. As to teacher education and performance, I know a teacher who took an online degree in culinary management, a master's degree. They got their step increase. I have no clue what that had to do with teaching 2nd grade, but the district paid the step increase. So tell me how they relate, please?

BioWheels

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 3:01 p.m.

While we are at it, lets fire ineffective legislators and governors as well. Let's set up a standard by which all elected officials must adhere to. Then, after they have met the qualifications to be hired in the first place - the correct training and the certification, have them evaluated by a separate committee each year. Then, if they don't meet the qualifications, then fire them after 2 years. Just because they are voted in, doesn't mean they are effective in their profession. It's time the governor met his own standards.

DonBee

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 11:01 p.m.

And the metrics are? What do you consider the metrics BioWheels? Balancing the budget? Not violating the laws of the state or federal government? Give me your metrics.

BhavanaJagat

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 2:13 p.m.

I am glad to note the number of responses that this topic has generated. However, there are two areas of human activity where the individual is responsible for the outcome. The two areas are 1. Education, and 2. Health. If we understand the Learning Process, it begins with the attitude of the student. The student must motivate himself/herself and mentally prepare himself to commence learning. We need to prepare the student to make sure that he understands his responsibility and his role in the learning process. There are ways to establish this self-motivation, and involve student fully in his own learning. All other efforts would be futile if the student has mental inertia/lethargy, and is simply unwilling to learn. Learning should prepare the student to think for himself in the area he had received his learning. The testing essentially must involve a testing of the capacity of the student to think on his own and apply his knowledge in a reasoning process to verify the validity of a statement or of a thought, or of an idea. The Governor has not displayed a basic understanding of what could be named Education and I am pleased to announce that he has failed for lack of critical thinking. He is not a thinker. He could be good actor. He will get a better pay by choosing the lucrative profession called Entertainment.

DonBee

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 10:59 p.m.

BhavanaJagat - I disagree, I had teachers who spent time getting me interested and motivated. Without them, I would probably be a high school graduate at best. Young students need inspiration, and encouragement. The motivation comes over time, as they find that there are wonderful and interesting things to learn. Great teachers do this. And the best of them teach K-3, that is where the flame need to catch fire.

Carole

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 12:57 p.m.

RE: teachers performance. I agree with macjont -- regarding determining a teacher's success using test scores. This should not be done -- there is so many factors that go into teaching and to base a teacher's ability on test scores alone is not appropriate. There are those students who do very well, learn well but freeze when it comes to taking a test -- I do feel that a look at the tenure process is important -- there are some teachers that achieve tenure that should not have done so -- and then, it takes forever to get them out of the system. Who does the evaluations of the teachers? Who does the evaluations of principals, and the rest of the staff?

thinking outside the michigan box

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 12:29 p.m.

Every student deserves an effective and competent teacher. Thank you Governor Snyder for putting the students needs first!

macjont

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 1:15 p.m.

Cutting education funding is putting students needs first? Give me a break!

macjont

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 2:50 a.m.

Mama, don't let your babies grow up to be TEACHERS Don't let 'em pick guitars and drive them old trucks Make 'em be doctors and lawyers and such My sons were too smart to follow my advice that they become teachers. They thought Willie Nelson a bit smarter than their old man.

macjont

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 1:17 p.m.

DonBee- The comments to these articles is scratched. The "same snippet" remains applicable to the issue. As long as the nonsense continues to be put forward, the "snippet" will be issued.

DonBee

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 3:55 a.m.

macjont - Your record is scratched, it keeps repeating the same snippet. Put a penny on the needle of that turntable.

Jay McNally

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 2:41 a.m.

Cash notes that Snyder "can't even dream of a Detroit classroom." Not so. Detroit classrooms, compared to Ann Arbor, are more a nightmare than a dream, surely. The problem is that Cash and defenders of the status quo can't dream of a government that respects children enough to demand excellence, or of a union that is not ashamed of it policy of expending unlimited resources to protect the most incompetent teachers.

macjont

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 1:18 p.m.

Respecting children? A cut in education funding does anything but respect children.

RUKiddingMe

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 12:50 a.m.

It seems like I'm seeing a lot of people share the dissatisfaction with judging teachers' performance, and a lot of people seem to think that you can't do so accurately or fairly. So what is the yardstick by which teachers' performance is measured? I mean, they ARE staff, right? We do all agree that they should do a good job, I believe. So there HAS to be some way to assess a teacher's performance. I'm assuming that all the people against this performance-based idea aren't saying that once a teacher is hired, they stay unless they sexually abuse a student. So what IS the way that you measure a teacher's performance?

1bit

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 6:57 p.m.

"there is no adequate yardstick" I have heard this mantra over and over (and I used to say it too). It is not true. Outcomes can be defined. Ways of achieving those outcomes can also be defined. It is not easy but it can be accomplished. One must eventually choose to be part of the future lest one be run over by it.

macjont

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 1:20 p.m.

Did it ever occur to you that there is no adequate yardstick. This American obsession with quantification, measurement, etc. is insane. It is the unquantifiable that lies at the heart of most of what we try to quantify. More on this in another comment.

Speechless

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 12:45 a.m.

Why not evaluate 'ineffective' teachers by the same standard as Wall Street applied not long ago to top investment executives who did so much to help instigate the 2008 economic meltdown: Give them HUGE bonuses! That'll teach 'em…

Dante Marcos

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 12:26 a.m.

A thought-provoking piece on Snyder's desire to liquidate Benton Harbor: <a href="http://www.politicalruminations.com/2011/04/republican-governor-rick-snyder-begins-rape-of-michigan-to-benefit-wealthy-cronies.html" rel='nofollow'>http://www.politicalruminations.com/2011/04/republican-governor-rick-snyder-begins-rape-of-michigan-to-benefit-wealthy-cronies.html</a>

DonBee

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 3:54 a.m.

A fact free, name calling liberal rant. If you want to provoke thought, a well reasoned, article on what is going on without the name calling would interest me. This was designed to "inflame the base"

Huron 74

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 12:09 a.m.

My daughter is about to become a math teacher. My grandmother, uncle, aunt, mother and sister were all teachers. She was going to become a pharmaceutical salesperson, but did math tutoring and loved helping people. People become teachers for that reason. I don't think many teachers sign up because they expect riches or easy times. The problem, Mr. Snyder, is not with the little people who are trying to help others, it's with the system we have for financing schools. Why is this the only tax we vote on? The higher priced properties are usually owned by older people who have no children in school or by farmers who may have a few children in school but can't afford higher taxes. The State of Michigan should be the first state to say, we're going to educate our children first! Mr Synder, let's dump that worn-out old corporate mentality of firing people to save money. It's easy, it's simplistic, and in this case, it's stupid.

AMOC

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 11:50 a.m.

Hey Huron - The problems you cite with our tax system is why Michigan moved away from funding schools with purely local property taxes back when we adopted Proposal A. Now we all, of whatever age, whatever property we do or don't own, pay an extra 2% in sales tax to help the State of Michigan finance our public schools. This buffered our schools against the recent bursting of the housing bubble, but hasn't helped as much as might be hoped because state sales tax receipts have dropped with employment levels and Michigan's population. Gov. Snyders' plan doesn't fire anyone right now; only those teachers who can't get their students' average achievement to progress by one year per year, for two years in a row would potentially lose their jobs. It sounds unlikely that your daughter would be one of them, but if it is, she can always fall back on Big Pharma instead, right?

1bit

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 12:06 a.m.

You can't improve what you can't measure. I think student achievment is relatively straightforward to assess in core subjects. The question is if they are not doing well, is that a failing of the teacher, the parent(s), or both. Though not easy to tease this out at first glance, statistical analyses can find outliers (both teachers and districts). Perhaps process managers can be brought in as well. Obviously, blaming teachers is not the answer (and I did not get that impression from Gov. Snyder) and giving teachers the tools they need to help students is what we want. I think this outline is an important first step. I would hope the major players here would step up and participate rather than dig in their heels. It's not perfect on the first pass, but it can and should be attempted. Saying "no" is not really an option.

1bit

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 3 a.m.

It's ironic that you quote Einstein, considering that he dropped out of the equivalent of high school in Germany because he "felt out of place and victimized by a Prussian-style educational system that seemed to stifle originality and creativity. One teacher even told him that he would never amount to anything.". (<a href="http://www.biography.com/articles/Albert-Einstein-9285408)" rel='nofollow'>http://www.biography.com/articles/Albert-Einstein-9285408)</a>

macjont

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 2:21 a.m.

Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted. Albert Einstein

snoopdog

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 11:30 p.m.

One thing is for certain, the days of "status quo and no accountability" are over . I held my breath when I voted for this guy but could not be happier with everything he is doing. Keep it up Rickster, the public education union folks are singing the blues and that means good things are down the road for our children and the taxpayers. Good Day

macjont

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 1:22 p.m.

L.C.- I'm not MEA, but I will sign a recall petition. And I will work to have others sign. I personally know a couple of dozen non-MEA members who are willing and ready to sign.

L. C. Burgundy

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 2:52 a.m.

Dream on cash. The signature requirement won't even be met. Even the MEA only has so many goons.

SillyTree

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 12:23 a.m.

You are right. People should be held accountable. Teachers that don't teach should be held accountable. Parents that don't parent should be held accountable. People that make reckless remarks such as yours should be held accountable. You need to find the problem before you can fix it. The you can hold people accountable. Singling out specific groups as the cause of a problem is an old tactic. Doctors and mechanics can tell you that the apparent cause of a problem is not necessarily its root cause. Systemic problems require systemic solutions. If the statistics that measure a teacher's performance are directly related to those things that are under a teacher's control, I am all for these metrics. Unfortunately they are not. I could not find this quote in the article. "status quo and no accountability" Are you quoting yourself in real time? We are obviously not teaching science very well. We don't use corelational studies as causal proof. They only hint that further scientifically sound study is required. This is a shotgun approach and not only will it likely result in damage to many peoples careers, it won't create any benefit and is likely to cause harm.

Cash

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 11:48 p.m.

Only 'til July 1st...can't do too much harm. that's not far away, don't worry.

Dog Guy

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 11:20 p.m.

"After two or three years of ineffective teaching, someone should find a new profession," Snyder said. Heck with two or three years, my friends say that if accountability were instituted I wouldn't last two weeks. To MichiganFrontiersman "(which includes the teachers, you make it sound like they aren't taxpayers)": I am forced to return to the public treasuries some of the tax money with which I am paid. This annoys me, but it in no way makes me a net taxpayer. I am a longtime tax parasite; perhaps you have another job which requires you to pay more taxes than you are paid. If so, thanks. deres, "We'll pay the good teachers lots of money to be teachers after we get rid of the bad ones!". Wake me up when it is time to retire. Thanks. dogpaddle says, "there definitely needs to be lots of educational reforms and it really does take a village." He does not finish the saying: It takes a village to raise an idiot.

Mike

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 10:53 p.m.

Why do teachers even get tenure? They have a union behind them to grieve any wrongdoings against them. Who else gets a lifetime employment contract after sneaking by for a few years? You can tell which teachers just want to get tenure then put their teaching on auto pilot.

15crown00

Fri, Apr 29, 2011 : 5:33 p.m.

how about Federal Judges ?

Anansi

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 4:51 a.m.

Mike, I am a teacher. I earned a BA, and then I earned a MFA, and then I earned a Ph.D. In total, I studied for twelve years. While earning my MFA and my Ph.D., I also taught as an instructor--teaching two courses per semester in addition to taking a full load of graduate school and in addition to serving as a writer in the public school systems. After graduating, I worked for six years--teaching, thinking about and improving my teaching, reading and studying to keep up to date, publishing, and so on. That is, I taught my classes and did research. I met with students beyond the required office hours. I graded, taught, and prepared my lectures, sometimes spending 12 hours a day working. I did not sneak by for tenure. Like most teachers, I earned tenure. And since receiving tenure, I continue to teach, revise my pedagogy, prepare lesson plans, study and keep up to date in my field, write and publish, meet my students beyond the allotted office hours, organize events outside the classroom, serve on committees, answer questions about careers and graduate school, write letters of recommendation, grade, grade, and grade some more, and yes, I continue to work 8-12 hours a day. Where is the auto pilot?

macjont

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 2:21 a.m.

How so, Mike?

Dan Ezekiel

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 10:37 p.m.

So here's a problem. The Ann Arbor Public Schools, and most other districts in this county, AREN'T broken. I went to the AAPS, so did my kids, from K-12, and I have taught in them for more than 20 years. I, and my kids, and my students, have benefited from some very amazing schools and some very gifted educators. Both my children were admitted to select colleges (U of M and Kalamazoo College), and both have done well there. My former students visit after starting college and commonly remark how well-prepared they felt when they got to college, both academically and in their ability to relate with students of many backgrounds. These schools have cultures and traditions that have developed over many decades and make them what they are. Just for example, Pioneer HS was just recognized as THE top music high school in the nation for the second time in less than a decade by the Grammy foundation. Three AAPS middle schools were among the top 10 statewide in MEAP scores in at least one category this year. Creating a one-size-fits-all plan, which 'fixes' the AAPS as if its problems are similar to those of the Detroit system, has the potential to inadvertently diminish the culture and traditions of schools that currently work amazingly well. This isn't to say that AAPS schools can't be improved, we can always improve. But much of what may be needed at supposedly 'failing' school districts isn't needed here and may unintentionally hurt succeeding schools.

skigrl50

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 12:07 p.m.

Dan - I agree that AAPS does a fine job of educating students, mine did quite well and were very prepared for their collegiate programs. AAPS does a great job with out accelerated students, an ok job with our average students, but what about our lower performing students? The kids that are having a really tough time meeting the new graduation requirements? We're not doing such a great job there, in fact I would say that we are failing many of these kids. What can we do to boost these kids up? I agree that not every child is college bound, but I do believe that every child has the right to earn a high school diploma. Maybe we need to look at 5 years of high school for some kids, who knows... but AAPS needs to reach these kids too...

Dan Ezekiel

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 10:48 a.m.

Yes, I did read the proposals, and AAPS have much to fear. We are currently in the process of losing 70 teaching positions for next year, after a similar loss last year. After cutting back year after year, because the School Aid Fund was in deficit, this year we face our biggest cut ever, though the School Aid Fund is in surplus...

L. C. Burgundy

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 2:50 a.m.

So here's a problem. The Ann Arbor Public Schools, and most other districts in this county, AREN'T broken. --- Well then, AAPS and its teachers have nothing to fear and tons to gain from the Governor's proposals - you DID read the actual proposals, yes?

David Briegel

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 12:50 a.m.

Dan, actually it is about the tax level for the privileged few amongst us who don't want to pay taxes any longer.

David Briegel

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 12:48 a.m.

Dan, Rick and Mike K. and their TeaPublican psychophant enablers want to abolish that outstanding music program. "Best practices" is a downward spiralling rush to the bottom. The wealthy will still have their exceptional private schools. To Hell with the rest! Best practices could bring all programs to superior levels. That is NOT their goal!!

Mike K

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 11:10 p.m.

Dan - agreed, AAPS isn't broken. The debate isn't about whether or not it is broken, it is about state reductions per pupil, and the cost of education to the taxpayers.

a2citizen

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 10:34 p.m.

Can we make firing the governor retroactive to Granholm?

a2citizen

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 1:56 a.m.

California San Carlos High School, Class of 1977.

treetowncartel

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 1:24 a.m.

No, she didn't go to a public school in America.

MB111

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 10:29 p.m.

This is terrible, people should not be held accountable for their performance.

ViSHa

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 12:01 a.m.

LOL

Townie

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 9:58 p.m.

OK, but let's also have the same rule for Governors. Rick, shape up or you're out of here in 18 months. So far your performance has been decidedly subpar. Your math with the $1.8 billion to corporations (needed to create jobs he says) doesn't add up any more than the 'job creation' figures at SPARK did.

A2Dave

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 9:14 p.m.

Deal, if we can fire governors after 2 years for poor performance. Come to think of it, why have to wait two years. Gateway certainly came to regret waiting that long.

SillyTree

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 9:14 p.m.

We don't want to prepare students for assembly line jobs; we want to make teaching an assembly line job.

Dr. I. Emsayin

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 9:02 p.m.

Anti-bullying legislation does not seem to apply to the Governor or to the emergency managers.

DonBee

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 12:32 a.m.

Or to the anti-Governor posters on this site.

Roger Roth

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 8:44 p.m.

@macjont "Successful teaching" is getting a certain number of kids (no one knows exactly how many) to perform up to some arbitrary standard on standardized achievement tests. It could be 25% of them, 50%, or 80%. If, say, 20% don't meet the standard, that's OK. "Ineffective teaching" means any human who can't take one or a class of sub-standard students and get them up to standard--as determined by a test. It's all about standards. We're all alike. Same needs. Same intellectual and psychological make-up and same baggage. Same interests. Doesn't matter. The grand plan of the state and country is to weed out the chaff and find a few good scientists, a few good mathematicians, a few good IT's and the like so that we can maintain our place as number one in the world economic race. Everyone else can be minimum wage. Period. There's nothing more obscene and idiotic than making it your goal to make every student "college ready." Except, perhaps, for the electorate to buy that absurdity. Now, if Rick were interested in really educating people instead of training them for college or jobs, then he might be onto something.

AMOC

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 2:30 a.m.

Roger - It's pretty obvious you didn't read what Snyder actually said in his speech, or even the portions the article quoted. Perhaps your reading comprehension scores didn't meet the "standard" you complain of.

macjont

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 2:25 a.m.

Roger, I agree that they are trying to define "successful teaching" in exactly that way, and if you are saying that is inappropriate, I agree, also.

say it plain

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 8:41 p.m.

Just to be clear, I haven't seen/read the speech, but the letter itself DOES NOT make teacher tenure the centerpiece of his reform proposal, at least not in any way I can see. So why is it the headline here?!

Stephen Landes

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 9:54 p.m.

@ Kyle So rather than selecting a headline based on the actual content of the 13 page letter your headline writer chose to pick something that would as controversial as possible. The result is skewed commentary rather than enlightenment -- "good" job

say it plain

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 8:55 p.m.

Fair enough, I suppose, it surely is one of the most contentious indeed! And it is the part of the proposal I too have the most problems with/ questions about. But even there, as he controversially proposes a quick boot to those who "don't perform" while we still would need to hammer out what counts as performing, and who gets to evaluate etc., he also adds some interesting talk about improving teacher-education programs to truly help teachers-to-be get good at helping students learn, and to reforming continuing education and teacher-certification processes to encourage people who might become fantastic teachers enter the profession more easily and be rewarded for their abilities in the classroom rather than 'mere' degree-attainments.

Kyle Feldscher

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 8:47 p.m.

Mainly because teacher tenure reform has been one of the main topics of discussion among people in education since Gov. Snyder took office and today was his first real indication of what he hopes to reform the process with. Simply put, it may not be the centerpiece of his reform proposal but it is surely one of the most contentious pieces of it.

zip the cat

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 8:34 p.m.

All you whiners and complainers are getting just what you asked for when you voted him in in a landslide over bernero. And why all the uproar,these are his proposals,nothing has been voted on He'll be lucky to get a fraction of what he wants

say it plain

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 8:31 p.m.

I was pleasantly surprised by the content of this letter! Did I miss it, or is a link to it included in the article body? @Technojunkie posts one near the top of the comments section... I wish Snyder had a better style because I think with better 'salesmanship' the proposals here would be mostly pretty easy to agree on. Aside from needing to get a little more specific about *how* effective teaching would be determined, there are a lot of good ideas here, including mention made of effectiveness evaluations for *administrators* as well as teachers, a more efficient and focused emphasis on early childhood issues, increased commitment to providing early-college and technical credentials to MI high school students, statewide anti-bullying legislation (hoorah!), and at least lip-service to looking at best-practices for teacher-training and peer-planning-time, as well as requiring open-bid processes for ISD and district coverage of various services. There are aspects that will be controversial beyond the teacher-evaluation scene, I'm sure, like money going to most-improved districts, and required schools-of-choice programs, but those can be productively discussed, I'd think.

say it plain

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 8:37 p.m.

And of course, there will be the issue of greater allowance of charter schools, and the implication that more testing will be needed. The thing that worries me most is the testing, really, and I guess a lot of how this plays out will come with the specifics on the plans. For instance, will new testing merely be a sweetheart deal for some publishing house/data management company or other? Will teachers/researchers get to help in the choice of those or will it be solely political? Will the charter schools offer true choice or will they be mostly of the mega-education-corporation variety?

Lac Court Orilles

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 8:09 p.m.

Snyder without any educational preparation is able to propose changes that are in opposition to research and best practices. Snyder is a TEACHER BASHER. He will fool some of the people some of the time, but not all the people all of the time. I would never recommend that a bright young person enter the teaching profession when people like Rick Snyder are in power to ruin their lives. Snyder's attacks won't stop there. Once he has eliminated all of Michigan's public schools, he will consider himself a success. Let's evaluate Snyder on the number of new jobs that he personally created that pay a livable wage with health insurance. After all, he got our votes on jobs, jobs, and more jobs. Where are his results??? Let's hold a TENURE HEARING for Rick Snyder to see if we want to continue employing him!!!!

Bob W

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 8:04 p.m.

sjausi, I believe we call those elections. ;o)

dogpaddle

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 7:54 p.m.

As a former educator (so understand I'm not selfishly trying to protect my own interests here), while trust me, there definitely needs to be lots of educational reforms and it really does take a village. We all (educators from the top administrators to every single support staff at every level, parents and students themselves) need to work together to go back to being a leading nation again. However, I do not understand (at least in public education) why the subject of tenure has become a political football (like Obama's birth certificate - it's a distraction from real issues). This headline is not a headline. Bad teachers can be fired for poor performance in two years or less if the administrator does their job properly and without prejudice (that prejudice, by the way, can also affect this merit pay political football that gets tossed around, too). All tenure does is protect GOOD teachers from BAD administrators and I would hope that Ann Arbor has very few of either. If a teacher is burned out or not doing their job, tenure does not allow them to stay. All an administrator has to do is document their poor performance (hopefully fairly) and out they go. So when Snyder and his supporters come up with REAL educational reforms that really will improve our crumbling school systems, then I will listen.

skigrl50

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 11:56 a.m.

But it can and does take years... and to get them out of the classroom they go on administrative leave and go up north and build their retirement homes. I truly believe that when a district puts a poor teacher on paid leave that they should at least have to go to "work" everyday. That may be filing papers, answering phones, etc. But they shouldn't be able to sit back sometimes for years and collect a free paycheck.

Audion Man

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 7:52 p.m.

I'm trying to figure out who is next... we've gone after the unions, government employees... now teachers are being demonized. In our race to the bottom, who is the next scapegoat?

a2citizen

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 2:05 a.m.

No David, not the poor, downtrodden, abused, persecuted and discriminated against white guys. They need help just like anyone else. I was thinking of more the millionaire, smug, arrogant white guys. The ones that make up .025 percent of the U.S. population.

David Briegel

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 12:58 a.m.

a2cititzen, Where is my violin? You mean the poor, downtrodden, abused, persecuted and discriminated against white guys? LOL

a2citizen

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 10:33 p.m.

The next scapegoat will be white males.

Mike K

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 8:06 p.m.

The logical answer is politicians!!! Or were they first? The cost of government and government services should be a continuing and lively discussion as it really does directly effect many of us. Civil discourse is the key to this debate.

macjont

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 7:44 p.m.

Many comments here (and in response to other articles) assume that our educational system "is not working." This is false! For many students, the system works perfectly fine. They graduate and are admitted to top universities with the requisite skills and knowledge to succeed. If one controls for the effects of poverty, and its resulting deprivations, American public schools stack up very well against those of other countries, even if one focuses only on test scores. What this nation is reluctant to do is focus on the cause of the problems educating those students whose test scores depress the whole and make us look bad in comparison to other countries. The reason is pretty clear: it cost money to address poverty; it's far easier to point fingers at teachers.

DonBee

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 3:51 a.m.

macjont - If you think only children in poverty fail to graduate you are completely out of touch with the system. Many very bright children are not challenged in the system, and they end up out of the system with no diploma. I would do some research on who drops out before you make blanket statements like this. And yes those bright students are thrown away by the system. It is a shame they are, one of them might have been the next Einstein - who by the way had trouble learning in school.

macjont

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 2:31 a.m.

DonBee, that means 84% do OK. I don't think the 16% are thrown away by the educational system. They are thrown away by a society that leaves many of them in poverty.

DonBee

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 12:30 a.m.

majont - And for the 16 percent of Michigan students that the public schools throw away - it works?

Tony Livingston

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 9:12 p.m.

Bravo.

bluetonguedlizard

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 7:34 p.m.

Can we do the same thing with ineffective Governor's?

SonnyDog09

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 5:32 p.m.

Yes. It's called an election. Who would you like to vote on whether a teacher should continue to be a teacher? I actually like the idea of having some sort of election as a component of an evaluation matrix that determines whether a teacher keeps their job. The trick will be determining who the electorate is. Letting their union brothers vote will ensure that no teacher is ever sacked.

macjont

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 2:33 a.m.

BasicBob, I think you are confusing "recall" with "impeachment." Not sure what the law on this issue is in Michigan. But using the California example, they got rid of a governor without any showing of criminality.

Basic Bob

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 11:56 p.m.

Short answer: Yes, if he does a bad job you can get rid of him in 4 years. If he does something criminal, sooner. Under this recommendation, teachers would have a similar grace period of minimum 2 years, but probably more because their supervisors will give them the benefit of the doubt.

Jonny Spirit

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 11:50 p.m.

Why does he get tenure, get rid of him now. That's the way he would want it.

a2citizen

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 10:32 p.m.

Only if it is retroactive to Granholm.

javajolt1

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 8:48 p.m.

Actually yes. Wait for the next election or initiate a recall.....but he/she would have to actually be ineffective first.

Bob W

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 7:34 p.m.

There are certain professions we seem to over-glorify and teaching is one of them. I worked as an at-will, salaried professional for my entire working life. I find it hard to believe someone can't develop standards for evaluating teaching performance. I, and my peers, were given standards to meet each year. How we performed against them at our reveiw, determined how, or if, we were rewarded. How is it teachers have the protection of both a union AND tenure? Really reward the good ones, fire the bad ones, just like life everywhere else.

AMOC

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 12:02 p.m.

Bob - It is actually just as easy and just as fair to develop performance standards for teachers as it is to develop performance standards for computer programmers, accountants, engineers or sales reps. No person who works in any kind of organization is completely in control of his or her "inputs" to getting the job done. Nor is a single number or other measurement commonly used to measure professional performance. My recent professional duties included teaching specific techniques to fellow employees, who were mandated to attend the classes. Their learning, as measured by tests, was indeed a part of my performance review. And also part of the performance review of the employee-students. Teachers as a group need to get over their horrors of being measured or compared and participate in making whatever evaluation system is used appropriate, transparent and as objective as possible. They're supposed to be professionally familiar with evaluating students; part of their job is to give feedback to guide further learning and to assign grades. They should be invited to apply that knowledge and experience to their own situation.

David Briegel

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 1:02 a.m.

gyre, two days in a row! Good post!

grye

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 7:54 p.m.

Teaching is not like other jobs. Your standards are probably some measurable metrics like total dollar sales, number of cars sold, etc. As a teacher you are managing on average 30 kids in the classroom. That is a difficult task at time in and of itself. Then you must convey information in a format that will excite them and make them want to learn. However not every kid learns the same way. So you must be able to identify the different ways, tailor your lesson plan to incorporate all the ways to ensure everyone has the opportunity to learn. Then you have the vary levels of current competency the must be dealt with. Kids read and write and different levels. However if you are teaching a language arts class, you need to be able to address all levels and hopefully raise everyone's capability. But you can't bring everyone to the same level. So your tailor the program to address the differences. What happens if the school system doesn't have a standardized curriculum for your class? Need to develop your own. But will the standardized test address your curriculum or someone else's? While this is all going on, kids will misbehave and time must be taken out to deal with them. Parents call and complain. New rules must be implimented from the district office. And don't forget about the special needs kids that require additional attention in class. Often there is no assistant to help. Further distractions. This is why evaluation standards may not be that easy as you think. There are many factors that skew the results. You may think this job is over glorified. However it is one of the most difficult to deal with day in and day out. Your job is probably much easier.

Michelle Peet

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 7:31 p.m.

News Flash: Teacher Tenure is NOT the problem with education. The tenure program simply outlines clearly defined steps to remove teachers, when necessary. Unfortunately, we have far too many administrators who are simply unwilling to put the time in to document the handful of poor teachers who need to leave the profession. Every profession has bad apples, and to remove them from a tenured position one must simply follow the guidelines clearly articulated in the contracts. None of us want to work among "bad" teachers---and, whose definition are we using? Also, Snyder talks about removing teachers after only two years of ineffectual teaching. Teachers are trained professionals who must often, quite suddenly, adopt a new course or curriculum after having taught something else for many years. Even highly skilled teachers will admit we aren't solidly in control of a new course for at least two or three years. And, as has frequently been mentioned, how will success be measured? Testing? How do we weight the societal factors? What about special education numbers? What about the huge numbers of students in need of special ed certification who frequently fall through the cracks, and never receive the services they need? They're then not counted in our measurements as needing additional help, but when the test numbers are low, somehow the teacher is to blame? I agree with those who have suggested that until Snyder spends a couple of days in some diverse public education systems, he will remain clueless as to the depth and magnitude of the problems our public education system needs addressed.

DonBee

Fri, Apr 29, 2011 : 11:35 p.m.

David - As expected, blame someone else. Never answer the question. Dodge the obvious. Due Process is a canard that the teacher's union (not the teachers) use to keep their position of power, so they can pay their union president more than the President of the United States.

David Briegel

Fri, Apr 29, 2011 : 2:08 a.m.

Don, It only proves how bad the administrators are!

DonBee

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 3:47 a.m.

So what I am hearing is: We have a process, but with the union, lawyers, and all the other obstacles an administrator has to be insane to use it. So far no one who is an advocate for teachers or education can provide any information on how many times it has been used. Blame the administrators is their comment, there is a process in place. I challenge you to prove it has worked, give me a number. Otherwise, I believe it is a canard.

macjont

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 2:35 a.m.

Can't give you a number DonBee, but there is a procedure in place ..... if administrators were only willing to buck up and use it.

David Briegel

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 1:04 a.m.

Don, If you think that number to be high then that is the number of incompetent or lazy managers!

DonBee

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 12:29 a.m.

Michelle Peet - How many tenured teachers have been removed in Michigan by due process in the last, oh 5 years? Can you give me a number?

Tony Livingston

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 9:11 p.m.

I definitely takes more than 2 years to become an expert teacher. Classroom experience is really important.

P.T.

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 7:27 p.m.

I think that teachers who need help or aren't teaching well are very well known by EVERYONE in the building they work, and by the parents and students who are NOT getting the education they need. Sorry, my mom was a great teacher, requested by parents and I have a soft spot for teachers, BUT my kids have had teachers who spend their class time eating, scrolling on the computer, and basically the kids are doing nothing.

81wolverine

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 7:22 p.m.

If we keep doing the same thing we've always done, we'll keep getting the lousy results in our educational system that we've always gotten. This country isn't near the bottom of the educational rankings among developed countries for no reason. At least Governor Snyder is willing to make bold changes. And his idea to hold teachers accountable for good performance only makes common sense. I'd say everyone reading this article has had awful teachers in school growing up that shouldn't have been in the classroom. Yes, the majority of teachers probably did a good job on the whole. But, I think a fair evaluation system could be created with no problem. I see lots of people complaining about Snyder's plan, but very few propose their own ideas to fix our broken educational system. I repeat - if we keep doing the same thing, we'll continue to get the same lousy results.

a2scio

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 7:15 p.m.

Can we fire him after 2 years of being ineffective because that will he is in the wrong profession?

redstate

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 1:25 p.m.

Sorry-you have to wait 4 years. And overcome the 20% margin he was elected by.

a2scio

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 7:23 p.m.

Oops - it should read "that will SHOW he is in the wrong profession."

John of Saline

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 7:14 p.m.

What about discipline? A teacher saddled with even a few troublemakers in their classes is at a huge disadvantage. Change the law to allow discipline-problem kids to be removed more easily and dealt with outside of the classroom. Make it so the parents can't sue or complain their way to having their little walking problem screw up everyone else's chance at an education.

Will

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 7:43 p.m.

The public school teachers to whom I've spoken, have said that parents schould be outraged at how much instruction time is taken away from average students because of all the problem one's and their parents. Private schools won't accept them, but public schools have no choice. Teachers have to go through long hours of meetings and processes to finally get a student removed. Teachers spend most of their time having to focus on problem children and children with severe disabilities.

Mike K

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 7:26 p.m.

Great point! All the talk is "collective" when many households simply don't value education as much as others.

CONCERNED CITIZEN

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 7:12 p.m.

Good for the governor, you have to start somewhere. Why shouldn't teachers live by the same standards that the rest of us live by. Most of us keep our jobs, get raises etc...based on performance. There are far too many "mediocre" teachers that have been taking up space in the system and getting paid really well. It is an important job that needs to be done by competent people. Rick Snyder has the right approach...and if a teacher is doing a good job, they shouldn't worry!

macjont

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 2:37 a.m.

I agree. The Gov has to start someplace. The problem: he's starting in the wrong place and headed in the wrong direction.

whodat

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 7:04 p.m.

The first step in ensuring teachers succeed? Well, naturally it's cutting education funding by $300 per student.

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 6:58 p.m.

If I do my job lousy once, I am done. Why would you wait two years?

macjont

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 2:37 a.m.

Because your job can be done by an idiot. That's not teaching.

Mike K

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 6:53 p.m.

I once had a conversation with a liberal educator over a beer. He remains a dear friend of mine. The question I put forth to him was that if it cost $1 MM to educate 99% of the students, and $2MM to educate 100%, what would you do? His answer was to spend $2 MM. In as much as I understand the idealogy behind his answer; it was hard to understand the reality of the answer - granted it is a hypothetical question. My reply was that is was basically "unfair" to put the additional cost onto society to educate 100% at twice the cost of 99% - especially in light of the fact that only half of income earners pay income taxes. Viewed in this light, these taxpayers have a double burden. I am glad for reform in education, and glad that we have Governer Snyder talking about new ideas.

DonBee

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 3:44 a.m.

macjont - All of them? Really? Tell me how please.

macjont

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 2:38 a.m.

The problem: the ideas he is talking about are bad ones.

xmo

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 6:39 p.m.

Defining teacher success is easier than you think, The students take State or National tests, simply grade them on the improvement from one year to the next. This way, teachers can be objectively rated instead of subjectively rated. This is not perfect but we do use the SAT test for college admissions. (these test were created by the teaching profession)

skigrl50

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 11:43 a.m.

You also need to look at how many times a student has moved. Some of the AAPS schools have students moving in and out on a regular basis. You may have a student move into a school and take the MEAP 3 weeks later, that should not count against that teacher...

DonBee

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 3:43 a.m.

"doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is the definition of insanity" Albert Einstein

macjont

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 2:39 a.m.

Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted. Albert Einstein

treetowncartel

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 7:49 p.m.

I agree with grye, there are a lot of variables. One idea is rotating teachers through districts. However, rating districts will result in cries of racism and other things, so be you need to be prepared for that can of worms too.

DonBee

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 7:45 p.m.

I would probably think to be fair to the teacher that several factors come into play: 1) Where were the students at the beginning of the school year? 2) How many students stayed in the same class all year 3) What was the attendance rate for the student (if they are not in class they can not learn) 4) Where are the students at when the year ends I don't know what the metrics or the measurement instruments should be. I do know there is a lot of work in this area in other countries. I was in a meeting in Sweden when one of the folks talked about his sister losing her job as a teacher because her students did not make adequate progress. She had to go back to school for a year before she could apply to be a teacher again. I suspect there is a lot we could learn from other countries on how to measure students.

grye

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 6:56 p.m.

The standardized tests will provide a number but there are other factors that can influence the data for the entire class. Special needs children may not improve as much as children at the higher end. In an language arts class, some students will have much higher reading capability levels while other will be much lower. If the results show the class as a whole, teachers with a mixed group will show lower average results than a class of all high learners. Yet the invididual performances will exhibit improvements across the board, even for the mixed group. However if teachers are only rated on the class average, good teachers will not be rewarded in a mixed environment. There needs to more than just averaging the test scores.

Will

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 6:29 p.m.

One of the historical reasons catholic schools were successful over the years was due to a unified curriculum. All students who attended catholic schools were studying the same curriculum from the same text books. They also took the same final exams for their grade-level, no matter what catholic school they attended. This gave a greater accuracy to testing. All teachers and students in catholic education were aware of what they were expected to teach/learn by the end of each year. Michigan's Department of Education can't even agree on a common curriculum for each grade-level and subject! Curriculum, text-books, criterion change from one school and district to the next. They have failed to provide a unified curriculum and the necessary text books/materials. Perhaps the best way to measure the success of teachers is to provide them with a unified curriculum, unified text books, and tests which correspond to the unified curriculum.

DonBee

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 3:53 p.m.

MacJont - I think you need to do a bit more research before you say they don't apply. I really do.

skigrl50

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 11:39 a.m.

Both of these types of institutions have parental involvement which is the missing ingredient in many of our schools. The high schools have students fighting, students not attending class, students stealing from each other, bullying, and on and on and on... Many parents of these students blame the schools... they aren't teaching their children about taking any responsibility for their actions... but then again the parents aren't taking any responsibility either. It doesn't matter what curriculum we have, if kids are ready and willing to learn they are not going to be successful. Maybe we need to have a "parent bootcamp" to get parents on board. Get their kids to bed at a decent time at night instead of shopping at Meijer at 11 PM, have reading materials for them from a young age, use the public library...

a2citizen

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 4:36 a.m.

And those of us who can identify the differences cancontinue to type in silence and read.

macjont

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 2:42 a.m.

Neither military schools nor Catholic schools are relevant to the problems faced in public education. I'll leave it to readers to identify the differences. Any reader who cannot identify these differences ought to stay silent and listen.

a2citizen

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 1:48 a.m.

Don, I have worked on over 40 military installations around the world but I must admit I do not know. I did not have children then so I was not paying attention. But I do recall that the schools had: -a well defined audience of kids from the base -the support of their parents I don't know about the unified curriculum But since you brought up uniforms...at least one of their parents wears a uniform. Not sure what that means.

DonBee

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 12:27 a.m.

Tony & a2citizen - Military schools have neither nuns nor uniform students. They are mostly staffed with young teachers - there is no tenure and the jobs are not in the GS system. Yet they do well. I wonder how?

a2citizen

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 11:08 p.m.

Tony, but now they don't have nuns. But they: - still have well defined audiences of kids from the parish. -still have support of the parents. I don't know about the unified curriculum.

Tony Livingston

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 9:07 p.m.

Catholic schools were also successful because they had nuns. They weren't paid like normal employees. They also had a well defined audience of kids from their parish and had the support of the parents. That said, a unified curriculum could be worth looking into. They have that in Japan, also.

DonBee

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 7:41 p.m.

The same for the US Military Schools, they allow children to move from base to base anywhere in the world and pick up where they left off. Teachers have very little room to change the lesson plans, or the order of material presented. More than 70 percent of students go on to college - and most of their parents have only a high school education. Not a bad result.

A2Since74

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 6:42 p.m.

A unified curriculum is also common in grade and high schools in Europe and the UK. Many years ago I attended the 5th form in Scotland after my Junior year in the US, and took the so called A Levels administered throughout the UK.

A2Realilty

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 6:20 p.m.

I'm much less interested in the idea that we should pay for performance and much more interested in hearing how good and bad performance will be objectively measured. Conceiving and implementing an objective mechanism for evaluating teacher performance is the challenging part. Being the "idea" guy is easy. I could craft a speech stating that we need to end world hunger, only use renewable energy sources, and make healthcare universally available and affordable to all. That doesn't mean that any of my goals, while noble, can realistically be accomplished based on my ability to write a speech. I'm disappointed in the Snyder's speech. I expected more tangible solutions if this is a problem that he wants to solve. This is seagull management at its finest.

A2Realilty

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 12:46 p.m.

@DonBee Personally, I'm fine with the existing system of pay based on years of service and education/degrees. While imperfect, I think that it is simpler and costs virtually nothing to manage. Pay and teacher performance are really two different things. Money is not a motivating factor for someone to do a good job, so I'd eliminate any notion of tying performance to base salary. I don't have a great solution for evaluating teacher performance. I do know that currently, a principal can (contrary to what many believe), identify, document and terminate a teacher who is underperforming. The problem is that the vast majority of principals don't walk through this process. Firing an employee (teacher, engineer, sales, etc.) is a tedious and unpleasant experience. In today's litigious society, avoiding a wrongful termination lawsuit requires that a specific process be followed with supporting documentation. Whether this is done under the current system by the principal or Snyder's proposed vague system, it will require an investment in time. I'm open to suggestions on a fair, easily managed mechanism for evaluating teachers. The struggle is that it is a complicated topic. The questions that you raised about 16% not finishing high school and the deficiency that poor children face can be attacked somewhat by the other portions of Snyder's Letter with which I don't think that you and I have much disagreement. Truth be told, though, many of the issues behind those two topics are really based at home and with the parents. We can throw as much money as we want at homes that have bad parents and we'll have little impact. The reality is that there are some homes in which education isn't valued. No one can fix that problem aside from those living under that roof. What would you suggest for evaluating teacher performance? (By the way, while I support teachers, I think that there are far more poor performers than 1:100.)

DonBee

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 3:41 a.m.

So what do we do? Leave it as it is and just ignore the issues? We need an honest dialog on what makes sense, some of his ideas make no sense to me. The evaluation and tenure ideas both need a lot more meat on the bones before I believe we know what we are doing or that they make sense. But what would you do differently? Ignore the minority of teachers who can't/don't teach (probably 1:100 or less). Keep letting 16 percent of students never finish High School? Keep the deficit that poor children have in education? As I said, I think there are items that can be put into law and we can move forward. I also think that if our Congressmen in Washington are not asleep at the switch that some of the early childhood items could find money from outside Michigan for a couple of years to start the programs running. Eventually Michigan needs to pay for Michigan's education needs. How we do that is beyond me. A suggestion to raise some taxes met a wall of opposition, both on business taxes (yes, some were going up) and on retirees. So where do we find more money? What do you cut or how do you get more revenue? Education needs to be both effective and affordable.

A2Realilty

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 1:07 a.m.

@DonBee - The other struggle that I have with the visions that Snyder is layout out is that many of them cost money. Extra funding for meeting this... extra funding for meeting that... What about the cost of evaluating the teachers? When I managed a group of 12 engineers, I found that it took most of my time just to monitor and accurately evaluate their performance. The HR department had an involved system that required substantial documentation on my part. I can't conceive of how the largely subjective concept of teacher performance can be effectively surveyed, documented and reported without it requiring additional headcount. This costs money. All these "money out" categories are struggles for me; particularly when I compare them to Snyder's recent budget where he is cutting funding for K-12 schooling. Lastly, if anyone thinks for a second that the teacher evaluations will not be expensive and will not require substantial documentation, I think that they are terrifically mistaken. Wrongful termination lawsuits will spring up from all those teachers whose employment is terminated after either 2 or 3 years of bad reviews. Training the evaluators, managing the documentation, and reviewing all of those cases to prepare against litigation will require a bigger HR group and... cost a lot of extra money that isn't going toward the educating your children or mine. Overall, the meat of Snyder's Letter leaves me wanting...

DonBee

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 12:25 a.m.

A2Reality - It is nice to see something a bit more balanced in your response. I too have problems with how to measure or even what to measure for teacher effectiveness. As I indicated in my original post, there needs to be a dialog on the whole letter. Let's figure out what is easy to accept, works and should be implemented and get that done. Then lets work on the rest of it. Some of it probably should end up in the trash, some modified and some accepted. Where people draw the line will depend on where they are on the education spectrum.

A2Realilty

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 9:26 p.m.

@Don Bee - -- More from last post -- Performance-Based Teaching: This is the root of my previous post to which you responded. Really, there's nothing in this that states HOW TO MEASURE aside from saying that 40% of the assessment is based on student achievement growth. Determining HOW to measure the abstract quality of effective teaching ability is really the big issue. Snyder has failed to do this. On Page 9, Snyder quotes Gates' statement that: "Of all the variables under a school's control, the single most decisive factor in student achievement is excellent teaching." If we really embrace this and conclude that the most important thing in education is to make sure the students are getting excellent teaching, then the overwhelmingly most important section in Snyder's Letter is the section dedicated to determining what is a good teacher. Since Snyder did not adequately define this, the effectiveness of his Letter is muted.

A2Realilty

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 9:25 p.m.

@DonBee I'm happy to open a discussion about the Education Reform Letter by Snyder. First off, I agree that there are many points in his letter with which few could debate. Some of the statistics are disappointingly dismal. Consolidating the Great Start - Early Childhood activities seems fine. I would like to see more information on the 84 funding streams. Performance Based System for Schools: I think that this is also fine; however, I expect that the 238 deficient districts will struggle with this. If they are struggling, they'll lose the opportunity for the funding. This will make it harder for them to recover. Better students will leave for greener pastures, further worsening the situation for those schools. Seems like a death spiral. I'm unconvinced that charter schools and SOC will help those who need it most in those districts. School Safety: Good, but what does an acceptable anti-bullying policy look like? This is a bit mom-and-apple-pie for me without the specifics to truly understand what is being specified. Any Time, Any Place, etc.: Seems fine.

DonBee

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 7:39 p.m.

So did you read the letter in the link above?

treetowncartel

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 6:11 p.m.

There is an oxymoron in the room. The children we educate are leaving this state after receiving an education to get a career and a life they can't get in this state. So, is our education system that bad, if it were as bad as it is made out to be those kids we educate would not be able to move on to other states and get those good jobs. Where are the jobs you promised us Mr. Snyder, where are the jobs? You are on the clock, do work !

DonBee

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 3:35 a.m.

Granholm emptied the rainy day fund, Granholm did not reduce spending to any measurable degree. Granholm created hundreds of loopholes in the tax laws lowering what companies and rich folks paid. Granholm helped make it easier to sue in Michigan for product liability. Granholm spent all the stimulus money, the 20 year tobacco settlement and most of the other streams of revenue from outside the state are mortgaged for years. Granholm shut much of the forest land in the UP to logging and other economic activity - forcing people to leave the UP. Granholm created a film tax credit that cost the state over $100 million dollars this year. Granholm failed to wield the line item veto to reduce spending or special deals. No Governor Granholm had absolutely NO responsibility for the state of Michigan's finances. None at all Macjont.

macjont

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 2:46 a.m.

Granholm did not bankrupt this state. Policies coming out of Bush's Washington bankrupted this state.

Mike K

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 8 p.m.

No, I don't believe that our education system is broken, although I do hall my own kids across town for their education within the district. In debate is the cost of education, and that's where the uproar is. Many find it appauling that Snyder would decrease state revenue by what, $300 per pupil? Snyder will be accountable for jobs 3 years down the road. Absolutely. For the good of Michigan, I hope he is successful. I truly believe some want him to fail.

treetowncartel

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 7:45 p.m.

Yeah, I was a little facetious in my last part. But my point is our kids seem to be able to find jobs elsewhere with the skills and education they got here. So is education really the problem it is painted out to be, or is the fact our unemployment rate is so high that people are looking for any type of scapegoat they can. As it was once said, its the economy stupid. Now mind you Snyder did say he will create jobs, those are his words and not mine.Now I know in 3 years if the jobs are not there he will say he was going to create a climate for job growth, but that it just wasn't possible. I've been around the block before. I will add that if gas keeps going higher, the recession is back in full swing. I think maybe he could look into hiring some Attorney Generals and go after those fat cat mortgage brokers everyone promised us would pay for the last recession a few years back when the housing bubble burst. those are a) jobs created he can take credit for and b) jobs that increase the state's revenue.

grye

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 7:31 p.m.

Dude: glad to see you will give him 4 years. I was beginning to think he had to get the jobs in 4 minutes. I would definitely like to see college graduates stay here to make Michigan a better place and grow the economy. How about Michigan funding 50% of their education with a promise to stay here somewhere between 5 and 10 years after graduating (very similar to the feds funding teachers and doctors for economically disavantaged areas). Could be a great incentive to stay here. If they leave, they pay the entire amount back. Wow. a suggestion instead of a complaint.

skigrl50

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 7:21 p.m.

Really?? Be reasonable! He's been on the job 4 months... It took our last governor 8 years to nearly bankrupt our state.

treetowncartel

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 7:14 p.m.

Grye, I know this, and I also know that Granholm stepped into a recession era and is not the reason for all of our jobs being gone, either here or around the country. But, he campaigned on that platform, so he is stuck with it. and in 4 years, he either has to put up or eat crow. At least Granholm took some trips to try and bring in some employers. And trust me i am not a fan of Granholm's either. the first subjext i spoke about was our kids in this state taking their education they got here and going to greener pastures. Seems our education is just fine, just the grass is greener on the other side. So, if we are all going to rest on that premise, and I know I can go back and find where snyder himself said our kids are leaving this state after we educate them, then it obviously isn't our education process that is to blame for our lack of green pastures. Follow me dude?

Mike K

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 7:03 p.m.

I was educated in another state, and came here. Jobs and education are not neccesarily connected, and candidly, because we are free to leave and live wherever we want, one must take interest in how good an investment education really is; especially in light that many households do not value it. I would agree with you on the jobs. They are coming, not necessarily due to Snyder, but more from a simple recovery standpoint. Just talked with a new hire in the Chicagoland area today who was "let go" due to the economy.

grye

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 6:40 p.m.

Dude, job creation isn't like ordering a pizza; it will be there in 30 minutes or less. It takes time for the economy to pick up, companies to grow some profit to allow expansion and hire more employees. Did you think that 1 week into the job Snyder should have solved the economic problems and doubled the number of jobs? Get real.

snapshot

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 6:10 p.m.

I see a lot of bad attitudes about the way the US does business from people who make a living off the way the US does business. Why stay and put up with US?

Cash

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 6:09 p.m.

A classroom with primarily rich kids with wealthy highly educated parents, access to Cadillac health care plans, gated communities, exposure to the arts and laptops etc. A classroom in the inner city with kids from poor homes with uneducated parents, gang infested neighborhoods, no health care and poor dietary choices. Tell me how you prove the teacher for each classroom is either effective or ineffective.

Rork Kuick

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 2:49 p.m.

To answer the original Cash question, I'd try to compare teachers with similar types of students to each other, using a statistical model. It's about like not comparing teacher in AA with Detroit at all. I'm probably repeating gyre's response a bit, with nerdish details. It'll take a complicated model, and background data on the students that we'd want to adjust for like performance last year, change in performance last year, wealth and education of the parents, and several other factors (some models have dozens of parameters). The model will not be perfect though, and folks will have to learn to realize that its assessments will be noisy - you'd only be able to act with confidence on the more extreme cases, perhaps only after several years of data. It'll take good measurement instruments too. It may be expensive to implement. Aside: A good model may be able to demonstrate the teachers in Washtenaw County are very capable on average - it is an expected result, but it is the wrong question to ask. We pay (relatively) well, and we have the best pool of candidates to choose from. When openings occur, there are more highly-qualified candidates here compared to any other place we could name perhaps. I will never ask that teachers in Detroit or Iron River be as good as ours. Do I expect good models will be used, with proper criteria used for decision making in individual teacher cases? I'm a bit pessimistic. Some commenters think it's easy, others think it's impossible, I think it is hard. Any methods implemented may be hard to validate too (we may lack control data for example).

Cash

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 8:58 p.m.

I don't think he is informed on the realities of life in the inner cities. Until he is, he can't fix anything because you cannot fix what you don't know.

Cash

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 8:57 p.m.

Paul, One school does not a district make. Do not assume that I do not do my research. Detroit has low test scores. Detroit has a serious poverty problem. Detroit has a serious crime problem. When you walk to school without any food in your gut and afraid of being raped or killed, it's a tad harder to deal with school. To ignore what is going on in Detroit is to fly blind.

DonBee

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 7:38 p.m.

Cash - That is to me why the Early Childhood pieces that are in Governor Snyder's letter are most important. Without this support, there is no reason to even consider any other changes. The Early Childhood piece I highly support. Do you? Or because it comes from Governor Snyder - it should be tossed out with the bathwater?

snapshot

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 7:12 p.m.

You're a teacher? You tell us.

Paul

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 7:08 p.m.

Cash, Please do research before you comment, Martin Luther King Academy is the third best middle school in the state. It resides in Downtown Detroit and is 100% black and has 60% of the students on free or reduced lunch. Yet these kids perform better in math and writing than every middle school in the state (except 2). Don't believe me, Please go to the following site below.. O yeah.. they are an incentive based pay system. And I ask you to find a study that shows incentive based pay doesn't work, (so long as the organization isn't funded by the MEA in some way). <a href="http://www.schooldigger.com/go/MI/schoolrank.aspx?pagetype=top10" rel='nofollow'>http://www.schooldigger.com/go/MI/schoolrank.aspx?pagetype=top10</a>

grye

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 6:38 p.m.

Not an easy task. Although your first group can exhibit many of the same problems that you suggestively infer may be generated by the influences of your second group. There are many cases of inner city teachers that have excelled in moving kids beyond the ghetto environment. It will take a deep review to gather the critical tools necessary to properly evaluate teacher performance. I just hope that a one-size-fits-all method will not be used since there are so many factors that can skew the data.

SonnyDog09

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 6:04 p.m.

Oh no! They want to evaluate my performance! I might not get a raise every year. They might fire me if I do not do a good job! The horror... Welcome to the real world.

DonBee

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 3:49 p.m.

Jake C - I would like to see the teachers keep what they have. But complaining about the reductions teachers have taken in Michigan for income is not a way to gain support, most people in the private sector have taken much deeper cuts.

Jake C

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 4:38 a.m.

The ignorance here is astounding -- teachers in Ann Arbor already get evaluated on a regular basis. Why does no one here seem to realize this? Maybe because no one in the media ever mentions it. And after a certain level, teachers no longer get any sorts of automatic raises beyond a minuscule cost of living increase, which sometimes doesn't even keep up with inflation. This doesn't even take into account all the wage and benefit cuts teachers have conceded in order to keep their districts afloat. Any other complaints about how teachers should be dragged down to the level of all of us poor schlubs in the private sector in order to keep things "fair"?

DonBee

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 3:29 a.m.

a2flow - My feeling is that if you measure the delta (beginning of the year to end of the year) for students in the teacher's class for the full year with good (How you define good is an open issue) attendance in school should give you an idea of how the teacher did in transferring knowledge on the topic. What you measure and how you measure it is beyond my ability to determine. I think it is unfair to compare last year to this year, or for students that skip a lot of school or for students that do not spend the whole year with the teacher. I believe that a teacher does make a difference and that difference should be measurable. If as some people indicate (which was what my prior comment was based on) that the teacher can NOT make a difference, that we have a real problem in education and schools should probably be closed and day cares established. I believe that teachers should have resources and be compensated. I can be convinced that teachers make no measurable difference in the schools and so it does not matter who we put in the classroom. A number of the education advocates seem to be strongly pointing that this is true. I do not believe it.

a2flow

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 1:27 a.m.

Don, If I understand what you are saying, I don't agree with you. It's not a thing where teachers have no control, but without home support it's very difficult to make a difference. An average teacher in Ann Arbor secondary has about 150 students per day. Of these, some will not be ready to learn. These students will miss somewhere around 40-50 days per school year. Roughly 1 out of 4 days. Their parents may let them stay home just because...or maybe to watch younger siblings...or in one case years ago, because he had a headache but then was allowed to play video games all day. The reality is regardless of teacher effort and building support programs, some students will make very little effort to do well. The parents will refuse to discipline them and will blame the institution. As someone that has had a student teacher before, good teachers do make difference. But the fact that parents/students are not being held accountable as well is a fatal issue in this debate. Beyond this, there is also the issue of how this would be measured. As the NY Times has pointed out, these metrics do not always provide a good basis for evaluation. How does one evaluate Ann Arbor Public vs. Detroit? Ann Arbor has three schools in the top 15 for MME performance. And how do you evaluate different teachers within the same district? Some teachers teach only the smartest, while others have mostly students that have failed since they were little. Does the teacher with the lower track students get fired and/or their wages cut? The AP teacher makes a $100K a year and teacher of the year because of their students' amazing achievement? The devil is in the details.

DonBee

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 7:36 p.m.

Ignatz - To look at your statement, I have to wonder - It does not matter how good or bad the teacher is, it is all about the children. No teacher can change how much or how little the child will learn because that is completely out of their control. Is this what you mean to say? If it is, there are implications in who we hire and what we pay for teachers. If it is not what you mean to say, then I would suggest thinking about how you present this though to the wider public. I for one think that great teachers can make a significant difference regardless of the parents or the home situation. But that is just my opinion. Home situation and parents do make a difference - I have no issue with that. But to absolve teachers because of home situation?

Ignatz

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 6:55 p.m.

SonnyDog09, the teachers I know would not/do not mind being evaluated. Their concern is that they will be held responsible for things outside of their control. Perhaps its from years of being scapgoated.

SonnyDog09

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 6:48 p.m.

I've worked in positions where my performance was evaluated for years. It's not the end of the world. I don't understand the "sky is falling" mindset. Why don't you wait and see what performance metrics are proposed? Teachers evaluate students all the time. I find teacher's aversion to any evaluation of their performance to be hypocritical.

A2Realilty

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 6:22 p.m.

It's not IF their performance is evaluated. It's HOW will their performance be evaluated. Amazed that you can't understand that.

Dennis

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 6 p.m.

Once again we want to blame "bad" teachers, tenure, etc. We want to blame everything but what is really the problem. If I was going to blame anyone it would be the Michigan State Board of Education. After all, most of them have been there for a long time. Where have they been if we have a "failed", "broken", education system? Where have the local school boards been during this massive "failure". Oh, they were too busy blaming the teachers, the MEA, and unions in general. Charter schools, and virtual schools are not the answer to our problem. Mr. Snyder has no idea of how to "fix the broken" school system and Charter Schools are only a way to privatize the schools and reduce the wages of teachers and support staff across the state. His "business" background does not make him an expert in education and from what I see, he has no experience with the public education system at all. Maybe it's time to recall the Michigan State Board of Education. They haven't been able to keep things going in the "right" direction. Kids and teachers are not business indicators and should not be "measured on a dashboard". After 31 years in the auto industry I've seen how misleading management "dashboards" really are. They are like any data, they can be skewed to show you anything you want to show.

DonBee

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 7:32 p.m.

Dennis - Did you take the time to read the full letter or are you responding to the article and the comments?

braggslaw

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 5:51 p.m.

As a taxpayer and a parent I want my tax dollars to be used wisely when educating my kids. I am dismayed by all the special interests which are trying to block this agenda.. 1. what is wrong with consolidation of school districts? 2. what is wrong with examining teacher benefits and pension and determining if there is financial sanity? 3. what is wrong with parents taking their kids out of a school that they do not like and putting them into a school they do like? 4. what is wrong with using market dynamics to determine teacher compensation?

Patti Smith

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 3:43 p.m.

Braggslaw, here is the problem with number three. We have kids in our school who are on their fourth school this *semester*. Mom doesn't like a teacher or they feel the kid is getting "picked on" or they don't like this that or the other or they don't like that you are trying to discipline a kid and on and on. The kid ends up moving from school to school to school with no stability and always being the "New Kid". I've seen it happen to many kids and it rarely ends well. As for the money issues...it wouldn't be wrong if I could count on getting paid a decent salary by administrators. Historically, teaching is a female dominated profession and we were paid accordingly...I mean, it was just the girls working for pin money, right? Until that attitude changes, I'll take my union thanks.

redstate

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 1:22 p.m.

I'll tell you what is wrong with those ideas. It takes the power (and money) from the union and gives it to the parents. The union is to decide who, where, what, and when your kids are educated. Any change to that is an attack on their "rights".

bulldog01

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 5:40 p.m.

It's about time some one make some sense out of the education mess. There was one teacher in the high school that all my kids had and all he did was pass out dittos - the same ones to all of them. They weren't even up to date and he stayed because he had tenure. Also, all school district should be made to have schools of choice!

Tony Livingston

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 9:01 p.m.

Dittos? That was a really long time ago!

kmgeb2000

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 5:35 p.m.

As many of others have indicated in one fashion or another, we now "measure" the success of the students through standardized testing. Yet, the product of learning is to be able to "think" and understand concepts, not recite facts which is the byproduct of standardized testing. Nobody seems to point any fingers at the parents of "underachieving" children. When they fail or fall behind its the teachers fault or the school system. The parent must have seen class grades at some stage before graduation. You can change all the teachers and all the schools, but if the parents are not engaged enough too motivate their own children then its still all folly.

Mr. Tibbs

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 5:26 p.m.

It is broken. the education system has been taken over by liberals who have a social agenda instead of an educationall agenda. How many of you have head of a text book, with the rather un-politically correct title, of "colored heroes of the american revolution" how many of you know who it was that segregated the united states military? how many out there know Abraham Lincoln was republican? And that while it is widely taught that the civil war was fought solely to end slavery is wrong? My niece had a full ride scholarship and minored in history. she had to drop it. Her professors refused to debate these topics! which as it turns out, this was just fine as she is now running, not just an assistant manager, as so many affirmative action employers insist such employees have on thier uniforms to make them feel good.....she actually runs several stores in michigan, for a some what well known national retailer! so what is the lesson here? if you choose to do so, no matter how deep the bucket of crabs may be, you can still climb out if you work hard enough at it! Dismantle the NEA! Dismantle any union that takes your money and gives it to any politicain you disagree with. I think thier should be a law stipulating that if your union gets involved with a politacl candidate, you should have the right to refuse to give your money to a candidate you do not like! including teachers unions and democratic/communist leaning political parties! but then again, right or left, we the people still loose! FAIR TAX! is the only way!

Jake C

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 4:31 a.m.

Huh, Mr. Tibbs it sounds like you may have your own social agenda you'd like to push on anyone who'll listen. Mind telling me who told you all about the "colored heroes of the american revolution"? The closest book I can find was published in 1855: <a href="http://docsouth.unc.edu/neh/nell/nell.html" rel='nofollow'>http://docsouth.unc.edu/neh/nell/nell.html</a> In the language of the day, that's probably the most politically correct term anyone had yet come up with. And who segregated the military? Beats me, why don't you tell us? Actually, every military was segregated until Progressives finally got enough momentum to get things changed. Political parties are merely pawns of larger interests. The terms Republican and Democrat don't really have any greater meaning than whatever corporate interest is backing the "lead horse" at the time. Sadly, some people seem to buy into this false dichotomy moreso than others... Why you think a "Fair Tax" will magically solve everything is beyond me...

Lovaduck

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 5:19 p.m.

The problem is, as many psychologists who empirically study the educational process, is often the home environment--which all the committed "effective" teachers in the world cannot overcome. When kids go home to homes where no one cares, or CAN help them with their education, to neighborhoods where poverty is rampant and no one respects education, it is hard to ask the schools to do everything. With both parents,even in middle class homes, working one often uses the schools as a substitute parenting system, which it was never intended to be. PTA meetings are often sparsely attended out of necessity. The problems of this have to do with class, poverty, the disrespect of education and learning, the competition of alternative media for kids, etc. THESE PROBLEMS ARE ENORMOUS, and simply beating up on teachers and their unions is not the answer. (By the way, I'm NOT a teacher). We have to take on society's problems holistically and no one wants to step up to the plate and do this; because it's so overwhelming. So, we pick on teachers and the educational system.

AMOC

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 12:26 p.m.

I didn't see anything beating up on teachers in the Governors' proposal. Nor did I see anyone blaming teachers (or the school system as a whole) for poverty, violence in the neighborhood or a lack of respect. I do think it's completely unreasonable to say that teachers, who chose their profession, have no responsibility to do what they can to engage their students in learning, to communicate with parents in ways the parents can understand and accept, and to take the students from wherever they are academically to a years' worth of progress over a year in their classroom. That's supposed to be 40% of a teachers' measure of effectiveness according to the Governor's proposal. That doesn't sound like picking on teachers to me. That many students don't actually spend a year in any particular teachers' class, or school building, or even school system is an excellent argument for a state-wide or even a national curriculum. If parents living in poverty don't respect education, perhaps it is because they were disrespected when they were in the system. Good teachers can forge a connection that will change that attitude. Complacent teachers complain about it.

DonBee

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 5:16 p.m.

I took the time to read the actual letter that the Governor prepared. I would highly advise people to read the letter. There is much there that almost anyone in Michigan can agree with. Many of the proposals would find home with some of the most liberal democrats in the state (especially the early childhood development and the focus on closing the gap for children in K-3). I would urge people to engage in a real discussion of the letter. There are a number of problematic items - Effectiveness, metrics, tenure, etc. These are items that the MEA should engage in dialog with the Governor on. Surprise many of the problematic items were on the table prior to Governor Snyder taking over. To succeed, the state needs to make education more successful. I don't think that just throwing money at the current system will do that. While there is much I need to learn more about and some that I outright disagree with, this is a bold starting place for a discussion. I can only hope that discussion happens, it is the only way to put our children on a path to success in the future. I am assuming that education should put children on a path to success. Am I wrong?

A2Realilty

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 9:27 p.m.

@DonBee Please see my response to your reply to my post. It is in the reply section after my post.

grye

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 6:27 p.m.

Excellent message. Too often there are opinions tossed out without any background knowledge. An educated discussion would be refreshing.

Cash

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 5:13 p.m.

The single least effective public employee group is the Michigan Legislature. And yet, he never has even metioned their pay, their expense accounts, their pensions for life. Fix Lansing FIRST, Snyder. Physician, heal thyself.

godsbreath64

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 2:24 a.m.

Richard Dale Snyder has had to fix himself since he holed up out on the pontoon boat for grades that allowed him to exit the University of Michigan(arguendo) with a law degee before he learned something. This why he wants scores. He doesn't know what learning is.

Cash

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 11:46 p.m.

Well Mike...I don't know how to tell yo uthis...but he has done NOTHING about the legislature.Doesn't even mention them. Never a word about their nice fat pensions for life after serving their short term.

Mike

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 10:49 p.m.

That was the last governor, that's why most of the democrats were booted out so that someone with some guts and resolve would do what should have been done years ago.

grye

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 6:26 p.m.

Can he lower their pay or is that something the legislature must initiate? Just like our US Congress with their lavish retirement, health car, expense accounts, and free haircuts. Did I forget to mention the get out of jail cards for any laws they break?

Paul

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 5:10 p.m.

For those of you that keep saying "he never sent his kids to public schools". Well, if you had the money, wouldn't you pay extra to send your kid to a better school that has a proven track record? And doesn't that show his dedication to his kids future.. Wow. wouldn't it be great if he took that passion for education to Lansing and tried to improve public schools.. O wait.. he is, and he's getting beat up over it.. Give it a chance people.. Anything is better than the system we have now. You can't show improvement if your not measuring success!

DonBee

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 3:47 p.m.

His oldest boy road the bus with mine. His daughter road the bus with my younger children. She asked to TRANSFER to Green Hills. He was actively involved in the school community in Ann Arbor for several years.

Tony Livingston

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 8:59 p.m.

Actually, I do have the money. Our kids go to AAPS and I am very confident that they are getting an excellent education. It is not perfect, but isolating your child in a private school filled with priviledged students is not a good idea. Public schools have a responsibility to every one including kids that need special education help, kids that don't come to school, kids who's parents are uninterested in education, etc. There are a lot of very sucessful students coming out of public schools.

grye

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 6:24 p.m.

2 of his kids attended Huron HS. They are given a choice of schools. His youngest wanted to attend a private school and yes, he can afford it. So can many others.

Hot Sam

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 6:14 p.m.

Unless these people are going to demand that ALL elected officials send ALL of their children to public schools, then the subject shouldn't be brought up.

deres

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 5:10 p.m.

"Who are the bad teachers?" "Everyone knows who they are!" "OK, who?" "You know, the BAD ones!" "Can I have a name?" "Well, my neighbor was complaining about Mrs. Q at XYZ Elementary - she sometimes showed movies in the class!" "OK, that's one out of 18 teachers at the school you mentioned. Anyone else?" "None that I can think of, but there are BAD teachers!" "You can name one out of eighteen teachers at an elementary school that serves mostly lower-income families, the one that sends food home with the students on weekends so they will have something to eat after Friday's lunch and before Monday's? The school that would be closed tomorrow if it was only test scores that were used to determine a school's progress? That's it?" "I, well, you know - bad teachers! Bad teachers! We need only good teachers! We need to get the best teachers!" "I don't see how lowering their pay, reducing their benefits, constantly criticizing them while raising standards to unreachable levels, and removing job security is going to attract those awesome teachers you're mentioning. How will that work?" "We'll pay the good teachers lots of money to be teachers after we get rid of the bad ones!" "How? We have huge budget problems. You're suggesting that getting rid of bad teachers, and raising the pay of good ones, that will help the budget? Where will the extra money come from?" "Umm - I, er, uh - get rid of the bad teachers! Boo, bad teachers! Booooo!"

Mike

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 10:48 p.m.

I have a single parent friend whose son wanted out of his math class because the teacher made him feel stupid. After the school refused he took the bus home after second hour and failed allof his classes afterward. We're not serving the kids we're making sure the teacher no one wants has a class full of kids so they can get a salary. I've experienced idiot teachers myself who when you aksed a question they either said look it up it's in the book or you should already know this. So guess what you don't ask again because you don't want to be made to feel stupid. Not every kid learns the same and they wouldn't be asking if they knew the answer, duh!

ViSHa

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 7:30 p.m.

how about the middle school teacher who gets moved from math to english for numerous complaints of ALL kids not learning anything? i suppose social studies will be next year.

deb

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 6:29 p.m.

how about my dexter high school teacher who taught current events and ninth grade biology. He showed the news to us four days a week and we took an exam on fridays. He was paid somewhere between 70-80k a year. I would say he qualifies

alan

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 5:07 p.m.

The best indicators of educational achievement are socio-economic status and educational attainment of parents. My kids achieve because they are fortunate to have an intact household with two educated parents who instilled in them the value of education. Other kids are not that fortunate and thinking that holding teachers solely responsible will bring any real change is naive.

alan

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 10:53 p.m.

@ Mike I think you make my point. How can we expect teachers to be responsible for fixing what is a much bigger social problem?

Mike

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 10:43 p.m.

I came from a not so rich background and was the first in my family ever to go to college. Intact and supportive family is most important, socio-economic staus is an excuse. Unfortunately our culture has TV shows that basically glorify teenage motherhood. Many young mothers have mutiple kids with multiple fathers. If Jesse Jackson wants a cause he should take after Bill Cosby, instead they treat him like he's an Uncle Tom.

A2Realilty

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 6:25 p.m.

An accurate opinion that is sure to be unpopular.

SalineBob

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 5:06 p.m.

So essentially Rick is saying the educational system is broken and he's blaming the teachers. That's an insulting generalization. Most teachers are hard working and very dedicated. Of course there are a few that are not so good at it. I've seen governors and businessmen too who weren't very good at what they do. Then the State encourages a system where teachers and schools pretty much have to teach to the test--or they get a bad grade. Tests are way overrated. They are only a small part of the feedback a school should receive, along with grades, graduation rates, jobs attained and student success in college, parental comments, community interaction, good school administrative leadership and on and on. Students aren't just numbers, they are people.

DonBee

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 3:46 p.m.

deb - He did say it. he said we have great teachers and they need to be able to teach (paraphase). The quote ran on NPR last night and this morning.

Marshall Applewhite

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 7:42 p.m.

"So essentially Rick is saying the educational system is broken and he's blaming the teachers. That's an insulting generalization." Have you ever heard the phrase, "The truth hurts"? Remember, Rick represents the entire state of Michigan. Not just wealthy areas like Ann Arbor, Saline, and Dexter.

deb

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 6:27 p.m.

he didnt say it, but the reality is good teachers should be the foundation of a good school. So to an extent build a solid foundation . . .

grye

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 6:21 p.m.

He is not blaming the teachers. He is blaming a system that needs an overall. Good teachers are beloved. Bad teachers never go nor do they even get help to improve because of tenure and union brotherhood.

Stephen Landes

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 5:47 p.m.

Try reading the letter and doing so with an open mind.

Patti Smith

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 4:58 p.m.

I teach students who were born addicted, live in poverty, are totally or partially blind and where English is not spoken in the home. How are you going to measure if I'm effective? State tests? I guess I'd better start looking for another job.

EyeHeartA2

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 4:23 p.m.

Of course I see the problem. This is not unique to teaching. (Who has a harder job, the coach of the Lions? or the Packers) - maybe it depends on your objectives. If the objectives of both coaches was to win 14 games, it is easier for the Packers coach. If their objectives are to win 6 more games than last year, it is easier for the Lions coach. Your assumpion is that the person doing the rating and designing the performance review is incompetent. Not every teachers challenge wil be the same, so their objectives will not be the same. You and every other good teacher can spot the bad apples a mile away. There are not too many, but they are there and easy to see. Why is it hard to point out the obvious? Also, another question to ask yourself: Do you think somebody else could do your job significantly better than you? Sounds like, in your case anyway, probably not, so you really don't need to worry about it too much.

Patti Smith

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 3:12 p.m.

Crap, how did I change my tune...my brain is fried and I don't remember (sorry) MA, I know what you are saying...I've had people tell me that a success for me is to keep them out of gangs/prison for one more day.... Tony & Doug--thanx :) EyeHeart...wow, yeah I have worked (and do work with bad teachers) but the problem is...what I think is bad might not be bad to others. Like I think the math teacher who says the problem once, won't differentiate for special needs students and sits at her desk eating the rest of class (not making this up, friends) is a bad teacher. But some general ed teachers want me to get my students up to grade level and think I'm a bad teacher if I can't accomplish this. See the problem? I can do a lot, but I can't teach the blind to see and I can't replenish brain cells eaten up by crack :( (I wish!)

Doug

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 1:56 a.m.

What you do can only be measured by the attitudes, behaviors, and successes of students in so many areas. Only educators understand what successful teaching is. Your tasks are enormous and educational communities need teachers like you. Don't become discouraged. Things can only improve. Bless you!

EyeHeartA2

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 12:40 a.m.

You tell us Patti - How would you propose it? or are you just going to fall back on the old saw "it is impossible to measure if a teacher is good or bad" BTW, have you ever worked with a bad teacher? How could you tell?

Tony Livingston

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 8:53 p.m.

Good for you, Patty. Keep up the good work.

Marshall Applewhite

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 7:41 p.m.

To put it bluntly, I don't really believe we're going to have much success with our public education system being responsible those students. If we can keep a born drug addict from staying out of prison later in life, we've done our job as a society.

Dennis

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 6:04 p.m.

I agree Patti, but you've changed your tune just a little from one of your last postings. Not so easy when they want to measure you is it?

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 4:56 p.m.

I agree with a lot of what he said except for the school of choice. Some schools have closed their doors for a reason and it should be kept that way. There are enough schools in this state that allow anyone to be in their district and it is that schools choice. The people that live in that district have to pay the taxes for that school, if that child's parents don't live in the district it is less money that is paid. We don't need all the schools to brought down we need to bring up the schools that need help!

squidlover

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 4:51 p.m.

I'll give Snyder credit for addressing what is obviously a failing system in a state that is in peril. However, I just don't see all sides having the will to work together to find specific solutions. Saying "After two or three years of ineffective teaching, someone should find a new profession." has merit, but is also difficult to measure with the wide variations in socio-economic standings. In general, I don't believe MEAP accurately reflects the abilities of the students who take it (perhaps I'll feel differently after the standards are increased next year), but if a teacher in a school has classes that underachieve by the standards within that school, or school system depending on the size of that system, that teacher should be held responsible. I think to dismiss a teacher after 2 years of falling below standards is a bit harsh because of cycles of students that he/she may be given, but at least that information should be strongly considered before offering that teacher tenure. Now if a teacher were to fall below standards 3 years in a 5 year span, I would probably not have a problem with the idea of dismissing that teacher. School boards need to look at how the money is being spent. Too many examples of unjustified spending with the AAPS board (I feel that we've opined about this ad nausuem). Finally, if the community really wants to make a positive difference with this situation, contact your local school(s) to see how you can volunteer. Ask about how you can help in the classroom or with summer learning projects that your school may be involved in. You know, something more effective (and more mature) that turning your back on a speaker at commencement.

grye

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 6:20 p.m.

And since all sides have never been able to resolve very fundamental problems, it takes a leader to force change. As a CEO he knows. When change is necessary, you can't make everyone happy. You can't even make the majority happy. However you do what is best for the system. That is what he is attempting to do. But many out there only believe that his intentions are self serving. Open thine eyes people. You have had them shut for too long.

Stephen Landes

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 4:42 p.m.

I read the entire 13 page letter on reforming our state's schools and I say "hurray" - we finally have an adult looking at the entire picture and offering a proposal for improving the education of our children. There is no denying that the outcomes of our education "system" leave much to be desired. Good people, no matter how motivated to do well, cannot achieve when limited by an outdated system. That means that even the best teachers are limited by what old fashioned, outdated, bureaucratic systems throw in their way. We need to completely restructure education in this state. If you don't like the governor's plan then either propose a different, but equally comprehensive, alternative or offer adjustments to his proposal. However, sitting back and writing "this gover-nerd must go" is simple-minded and distinctly unhelpful. Joining with the MEA leadership and shouting "h*** no we won't change" is futile and childish. Grow up and make positive suggestions.

godsbreath64

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 4:27 p.m.

Yes Ace, he really does need to split before the next dawn. His posture is starting to show that he knows this. Maybe he looked at his public sector resume' and bigger-than-anything-you-know-government and can finally face the truth. Sign your recall petitions everybody!

blahblahblah

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 4:23 p.m.

"Michigan's education system is not giving our taxpayers, our teachers, or our students the return on investment we deserve," Snyder said, noting Michigan ranks 21st in the country in per-pupil education spending, but ranks much lower in terms of academic performance. From The Detroit News: <a href="http://detnews.com/article/20110427/POLITICS02/104270387/Gov.-Snyder-targets-teacher-performance-in-sweeping-plan#ixzz1Kk0PrRzf" rel='nofollow'>http://detnews.com/article/20110427/POLITICS02/104270387/Gov.-Snyder-targets-teacher-performance-in-sweeping-plan#ixzz1Kk0PrRzf</a>

jgtrueblue

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 4:20 p.m.

No one can ever satisfy everyone. Gov. Snyder is taking the painful steps that our state needs. The opposition has the "loudest" complaints because they do not like change. Our previous gov. was a puppet, who for eight years dug us deeper into this horrendous situation. She did NOTHING!!!!! Let's let this man get us on track. Teachers must be held accountable and EARN their pay and benefits. Change is demanded here. It must happen. The protests against our new govenor are greedy, arrogant and symbolic of those who DO NOT care about the future of our state. They epitomize the give ME, give ME, give ME attitude that is the center of the problems. I believe the great, valuable and successful teachers will have no problem proving who they are. Accept the necessary changes for Michigan - tough as they will be. The fact so many cannot accept is it was an overwhelming majority that wanted Rick Snyder and CHANGE.

DeeAA

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 8:25 p.m.

Are you dissatisfied with YOUR children's teachers? Or are you just generalizing here? Do you actually have any children in the public school system? Snyder sure likes his private-school education for HIS kids.

Top Cat

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 4:14 p.m.

The reaction by the public education monopoly and their union to any attempt to reform tenure and hold them accountable for the results of their work shows where they stand. Public servants work for us, the taxpayers. We do not work for them and their union. We respect their work and professionalism. However, we the taxpayers and our elected representatives will define our expectations of their work, how they will be measured and what we are able and willing to compensate them. If they don't like it, let them sell their services elsewhere.

Michigan Frontiersman

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 9:27 p.m.

The reason teachers need the union is because without them they get horrible benefits and low pay. Take a few courses at EMU and then go teach in a Charter School. Maybe then you'll rethink whether it's worth taxpayer dollars (which includes the teachers, you make it sound like they aren't taxpayers) to provide the teachers insurance and a good pay.

treetowncartel

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 6:18 p.m.

Courses would interupt our time with beer. Which by the way, Top Cat still owes me with his Pick for Andy Dillon a few years back.

HaeJee

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 4:43 p.m.

How do purpose "they" will define "our" expectations? Considering the elected representatives are not qualified to define educational standards. You may have faith in our politicians, but I believe majority of us don't. I recommend you take a few educational courses at EMU and learn about our educational system.

Rosie Lemons

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 4 p.m.

And I might add that Michigan has one of the best public school systems in America, or at least they did have before budget cuts and crowding the classrooms became the norm. One thing is for sure, we can't solve our economic problems by robbing the future of our children.

DonBee

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 10:45 p.m.

42 in my kindergarden class and in the high 30s all through grade school, in small town Michigan. Over crowding to beat the band. 5 service academy graduates, 2 to Harvard on scholarship, an even dozen to the UofM (3 are now MDs), 16 to MSU and more to other colleges - total graduating class - 98. Percent of free lunch 60%. Yes, class size makes a huge difference in success and poverty is the key driver for non-success. My experience proves it.

Rosie Lemons

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 7:44 p.m.

If you start shoving 30+ kids into one classroom especially at the lower grade levels, regardless of what our budgetary constraints are, you will be severely compromising the children's education. Call it what you will, but it's a reality.

blahblahblah

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 4:26 p.m.

MI ranks 21st in the country in per-pupil spending yet ranks much lower in student performance, so something besides just the money is at play here.

The Ben

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 4:22 p.m.

We didn't start cutting the budget because it was fun, or because we hate children. Have you been paying attention the the economic news in Michigan for the past decade? Do the math. No one wants to "rob the future from our children." There's just a lot less money to pay for things. Stop trying to turn this into a movie plot. There's not necessarily an evil villain in every disagreement.

javajolt1

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 3:56 p.m.

I don't understand why the MEA, tenure and teaching excellence engenders such an aggressive negative response. - Everyone wants teaching excellence. - U.S. students in public schools are near the bottom of the pack worldwide and falling - There have been numerous documented examples of teachers interacting with your kids that have no business being in a classroom. - These poor teachers take the space of great teachers that want to teach. They're BOTH teachers - you mean the MEA cannot make the distinction between the two? So why - when tenure can institutionalize poor teachers and make it nearly impossible to get rid of them, does the union whip up such a frenzied negative response to constructive change? Consider this: Excellent YOUNG teachers are the first to be laid off when underperforming teachers with temure get to retain their jobs. Excellent teachers with a lot of seniority are excellent teachers. Period. They will stay. What is so wrong with trying to fix a system that has run off the rails? The senoirity system and tenure sure isn't used in the private sector. If you don't perfom, you're out. The idea of a company or business keeping a lousy employee is laughable. Yet in our schools, it's written into an employment contract. What is the MEA afraid of here??

javajolt1

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 6:42 p.m.

@ northside A reasonable response. I agree with much of what you say. But if "teacher quality is only one factor that influences how students perform....." Why not address that one head on, identify the other metrics that influence outcomes and address those too? By saying teacher quality only address ONE part of the equation, so forget about it, doesn't make too much sense. Also, I don't think measuring teacher quality is ONLY the result of determining how smart a 7 year old is. How about we determine how smart a TEACHER is? We do this in medicine on and ongoing basis with (CME) continuing medical education requirements? Seems to me this would be something the MEA/NEA - an organization representing educators would and should embrace. I appreciate what you're saying though.

Mick52

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 6:23 p.m.

Good comment Java, I see most are in agreement. I see no reason why anyone would oppose a program proposed by a politician that promotes improvement. Of course we do not know if a new program will work, but we do know what we have been doing is not working. That is what program evaluation is, determine what doesn't work so it can be fixed.

northside

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 4:50 p.m.

java there's a very simple answer to your question: teacher quality is only one factor that influences how students perform. If it was the only factor than yes, standardized test score-based merit pay would be very fair. The biggest factor, research shows, is economic class background, something teachers have no control over. Or to put it another way: would you want your paycheck determined by what a 7-year-old does or doesn't do? Especially a 7-year-old that may or may not come from a background that facilitates educational success?

tom swift jr.

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 4:39 p.m.

sorry, folks, I'm not an educator, nor do I belong to a union (never have). Snyder has no clue as to what will "fix" this state...his only goals are to "fix" the profits for his corporate cronies. I'll trust his intentions about public education when he enrolls his daughter at a public school.

cinnabar7071

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 4:14 p.m.

I don't see a problem either Tom, could you explain. I do see a problem when we as a nation spend more then any other country in the world on education, yet 9th is the best we can do in testing.

javajolt1

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 4:04 p.m.

Ummm. no. Why don't you tell us what you see that that is so clear that would so completely invalidate looking into other solutions. Calling me blind doesn't quite make that happen for me.

tom swift jr.

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 3:59 p.m.

are you really so blind as to not see the problem with these suggestions? That's very, very sad.

tom swift jr.

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 3:55 p.m.

Really Ricky? Tell me how the teachers in Detroit are going to be paid? By the success of their students? How about the teachers in Ann Arbor??? God Forbid that a teacher draw a class that is on the wrong side of that achievement gap, eh? Might as well just turn in the resignation. It's a shame that teachers will have to put more time into gaming the system to end up with the right class list in order to be considered "effective"... This man has no experience in education, sent the jobs he had at gateway overseas, and is about to put a stake through the heart of our education system. The rally is at 8 am on Saturday, Pioneer HS, be loud!

Rork Kuick

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 1:26 p.m.

Critics of measurement typically assume a certain model will be used, and then argue their assumed model is stupid. And it is. Models that really try to tease out the effect of the teacher are complicated, since they have to adjust for many other known effects, mostly about what kind of students they got. The model Snyder might be thinking about also sounds overly simple. You want to be able to get an idea about how a teacher is doing compared to other teachers with the same kind of students. It's hard. The details are very messy. If you want to start getting dirty try the fairly readable review of the Economic Policy Institute, "Problems with the use of student test scores to evaluate teachers". I am not endorsing their conclusions, just saying it is one introduction to the issues. Mark the Mad Biologist at scienceblogs occasionally discusses the issues too. He's got pretty good stats background, but not good enough for my tastes, so beware.

AMOC

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 9:22 p.m.

It seems to be that you are assuming that no teacher in any system is good enough to be able to help the Detroit students achieve "at least one year of academic progress per year of instruction". That's what Gov. Snyder said the system should be able to expect, on average. Unusually able students regularly make 1.5 to 3 years of progress, provided they are not held back by demands that they spend one years' seat time per year of school curriculum. I think that bar is set pretty low, actually. A teacher can and should take even students who are somewhat below average from where they are to a years' worth of progress in a year. This is especially true of kids with learning disabilities but normal-or-above intelligence who are supposed to be receiving "special education" from specially trained (and better-compensated) teachers. Sad to say this doesn't always or even usually happen in our school systems.

macjont

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 7:38 p.m.

deb, not something beyond statistical probability or experience.

deb

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 6:23 p.m.

Looking at it the teacher would have to draw the wrong class a couple times in a row. . .

Rosie Lemons

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 3:55 p.m.

While this sounds good on paper, who or what will decide whether a teacher is effective or not? This is not as easy as it might sound. Basing it on scores only can't work. No one would want the 'problem' children as it would affect their scores. Having principals evaluate teachers could be problematic as well. Just as there are good and bad teachers, so are there good and bad people in administration. Who evaluates them and decides whether they are in a position to know a good teacher when they see one?

Rosie Lemons

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 1:08 p.m.

<a href="http://realteachermichigan.blogspot.com/" rel='nofollow'>http://realteachermichigan.blogspot.com/</a> A graph showing hours worked vs salaries paid for each country. half way down.

alternativeview99

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 2:52 a.m.

I think you all miss an important point. Is the purpose of education to train workers or enrich the lives of individuals? If the purpose is to train workers, the effectiveness of teachers can easily be judged by those who employ workers. And, let's not pretend. These people are looking for the highest skill in doing what they want for the least cost. If the purpose of education is to enrich lives, it is not so simple. Are children able to judge effectively if their lives have been enriched? I know in many cases I did not appreciate the value of some teacher's work until years later. Should parents be the judge? Some parents, (maybe even many), might not have a clue. Should taxypayers be the judge? Afterall, taxpayers pay for the education. In coming up with criteria to judge the performance of teachers and say what is great teaching and what is not, you need to start by deciding what great edcucation is. What needs to be accomplished as a result of education? If you want to say it is the ability of students to pass certain standardized tests.....go for it! But, recognize that teachers will then teach to the test. Why would you expect them to do any differently? You think their love of teaching or a subject could compensate for what they put up with in this system year after year? Have you looked at any of the studies on compensation? What do these studies say about how much great teachers could earn in another profession? Are you that sure their love of teaching is enough for them to put up with it year after year? So, before we start talking about how we get rid of bad teachers, how about defining how we will measure good teaching.....and good learning for that matter. There is a BIG difference when you are simply training people to be great workers and trying to draw out through education the talents people have to make a contribution to society. They are simply not the same thing at all.

Mike

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 10:38 p.m.

Real easy, ask the kids and parents. If the counselors were honest they would tell you which teachers the kids are trying to bail out of their classes.

Rosie Lemons

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 7:37 p.m.

good question Mick52.... How DO we know that their schools are better than ours? I do know that if you make testing scores the guideline by which we judge performance, teachers will be forced to teach to the tests and all creativity will go out the window. In addition to that, who will take the kids that don't perform well on tests? There are children that no matter what you do, will not score well on tests. Private schools don't have to take these kids. Public schools do. I didn't say that I knew what the answer is. But I do not what it isn't.

macjont

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 7:37 p.m.

Good point here, Mick52. Maybe they aren't superior. If you control for scores derived from our impoverished students, our schools compete very well, even if you restrict your focus to test scores. The Ann Arbor schools, which will be affected by Snyder's proposals just as much as other districts, has done an outstanding job of preparing its middle and high end students for admission to some of the top colleges in the country. While I want to address any shortcomings relative to the rest of the student body, I do not want to jeopardize the positive aspects of the Ann Arbor system. Snyder seems to ignore this risk.

Mick52

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 6:15 p.m.

If we have determined that children in other countries learn better because of their scores, why shouldn't we do so too? Or if the international school are not basing learning on scores how in blazes do we know their schools are superior than ours?

Mr. Ed

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 3:51 p.m.

Snyder said his plan would help update an education system still set on graduating students from high school to work on an assembly line. That statement is very offensive and shows his disrespect towards our parents that built this country. This man has got to go.

Mike

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 10:37 p.m.

He was only saying that in the past you just had to get through high school and you could get a decent paying job but now we have to educate our kids at a higher level if they want a job similar to one that took a basic high school education not too long ago

skigrl50

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 7:02 p.m.

A bacholor's degree is the new high school diploma. To get a job on "the line" these days, one needs to have an associate's degree due to the high degree of technology used in manufacturing today.

Mick52

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 6:12 p.m.

To add to grye note on technology, in re to assembly lines many jobs are now being performed by robots. The plants don't need as many employees as before. Many other jobs are gone too because of technology. Can't remember the last time I bought music from a person. Its all online. The loss of jobs to technology I think is one aspect of the unemployment issue that you do not hear much about.

Mr. Ed

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 5:25 p.m.

Not all kids in school have the ability to go to college. Some will have to take a different path. I don't disagree with the needed change in the educational process. But with the statement being said it sounded very demeaning to a non college graduate. Education is very important. But education starts at home with caring parents. The teacher can only do so much. Skills and vocations are a good way to develop the kids that will not go to college. We will always need skilled trade.

SonnyDog09

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 5:14 p.m.

You used to be able to get a good job "working on the line" with a high school diploma or less. Those jobs and those days are gone and they are not coming back. I don't see anything wrong with stating the obvious.

grye

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 4:33 p.m.

Times have changed Mr. Ed. The automobile manufacturers are no longer the cash cow they once were. Computers didn't even exist when our parents attended high school. Technology is the future. To prepare kids for optimum opportunity, they will need more learning in the technology areas. Hopefully they will continue their education and develop new ideas for the future. Not all will want to go to college or even be suited for it but our focus should be to offer the opportunity. No disrespect.

thehawk

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 4:13 p.m.

What is so offensive about saying that our schools must change with the times? We are progressing from labor to technology, and schools need to prepare graduates with more skills, and a path to college.

A2Susie

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 3:44 p.m.

Unfortunately, there are teachers who are burned out or simply unsuited for teaching, and it is very hard to induce them to improve or force them out once they have tenure. If there could be a small team of master teachers from a different school (e.g., Pioneer teachers would do Huron) who would come in to evaluate and help problem teachers, I think it would be possible to actually help some, and convince others that they should find another career. The quality of teaching can have a profound impact on a struggling student, and every student deserves his/her best shot.

SonnyDog09

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 4:48 p.m.

I don't think that letting union brothers evaluate the performance of their union brothers would be very effective. We would be like Lake Woebegone: "All the teachers are above average."

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 3:52 p.m.

I think the chances of persuading an ineffective long-term tenured teacher that they should quit and find a new job are roughly zero. During my kids time in AAPS there were a small handful of teachers we ran across that were outrageously, comically terrible. They got shuffled from school to school (and, in middle-school, from team to team because other teachers didn't want to work with them any more than parents wanted them for their kids). But these people didn't have marketable skills that would have paid them anything remotely close to the wages and health & retirement benefits of a senior Ann Arbor teacher. They might have come to hate kids and their jobs, but there was no way they were leaving on their own.

Technojunkie

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 3:39 p.m.

13-page letter here: <a href="http://www.michigan.gov/documents/snyder/SpecialMessageonEducationReform_351586_7.pdf" rel='nofollow'>http://www.michigan.gov/documents/snyder/SpecialMessageonEducationReform_351586_7.pdf</a> I'm glad to see nutrition get a good mention.

Marshall Applewhite

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 5:14 a.m.

eom, Sure it's "possible" to terminate poor tenured teachers, but the administration simply doesn't have the resources to fight the union for all these cases.

eom

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 8:50 p.m.

Actually, you CAN get rid of tenured teachers if administrators do their JOB. If a teacher has low performance evaluations year after year, they can be dismissed. However, if they don't GET these low evaluations because it takes work on the administrator's part, they won't be dismissed. Unions aren't the issue. Tenure isn't the issue. Finding effective ways to evaluate people and finding effective evaluators, that's an issue.

Ace Ventura

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 3:36 p.m.

Rick really is to much to stomach he really needs to just go away.

f4phantomII

Fri, Apr 29, 2011 : 6:53 p.m.

The problem, for you, is that he was elected to a four-year term by a (large) majority of voters. He may "just go away" but not for slightly less than four years at the earliest. As broken as our state is, I would welcome any success.

Mick52

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 6:08 p.m.

The Gov's plan focuses on improvement. Why is that so hard to stomach?

Snehal

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 4:30 p.m.

Do you have a better solution? If so, then talk with him or just shut up and obey what he does.

The Ben

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 4:17 p.m.

It's actually "too much," not "to much." How did such a poorly-written post receive 9 thumbs-up votes?

cinnabar7071

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 4:03 p.m.

You libs hate when a responsible person is in charge. So what don't you like besides the accountible part?

Ignatz

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 3:31 p.m.

More vagueries from the Governerd. Once he and his oligarchs define them to thier likeing, it'll be far easier to get rid of those "bad" teachers who voice opposition, amongst other things. A better approach would be to fire poor performing parents. He is right in one aspect, though. We no longer graduate students to work in factories. We graduate them to enter military service to protect the interests of mega corporations.

Joe Hood

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 3:10 a.m.

You could always ask the parents to name the best teachers. You can also check the records for the teachers that are trying to finish out their years for retirement and are no longer engaged. If a teacher is no longer engaged, why force them to continue to teach to get their retirement. Get rid of the administrators and give those teachers admin jobs.

Cash

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 11:43 p.m.

Craig, I think that IS the point. It is absurd to fire a teacher for a poor performing student who has parents who are poor performing parents in terms of encouraging the child (or absent for any support at all). We can't get rid of the parents who shoulder a huge repsonsibility in this issue....so firing a teacher is going to be pointless as the loser parent will still be there....helping their child lose.

Craig Lounsbury

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 9:09 p.m.

you lost me at "fire poor performing parents" While they can be a big part of a child's success or failure they can't be fired so you have no point.

macjont

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 7:32 p.m.

A2Susie, I don't see any "name-calling" in this comment, or at least any that is univited. Rick called himself a "nerd.," and he is the governor .... I think?

Ignatz

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 6:51 p.m.

A2Susie, Mr. Snyder referred to himself as a nerd in his campaign. I simply finished the loop and it does show my lack of respect for him and his ways. grye, what I'm looking for are specifics to what he means by poor performing. I would hate to have a job where my performance depends on many factors outside of my control.

grye

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 4:43 p.m.

Rewarding good teachers is an excellent idea. There are too many in the system that coast along since tenure becomes their teflon suit. However I worry that standardized testing will not take into account students' various levels of capability or level of improvement nor will it take into account special needs children within the classrooms. Regarding your vagueries comment; hopefully you weren't looking for a finished program that showed screw A goes into hole B and nut E goes onto bolt J. This is an overarching plan, not yet detailed.

A2Susie

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 3:46 p.m.

Is it really necessary to resort to name-calling to make your point?

macjont

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 3:26 p.m.

Now for the tough part: defining "successful" teaching; "ineffective" teaching; etc., etc. etc. If we fall back on testing, testing, testing, and test scores, test scores, and more test scores, we will be headed down the wrong path. Teachers are not engaged in selling cars or meeting assembly line production quotas. Let's see if Rick can tackle the tough part of his proposal. The speech was easy.

Jake C

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 3:58 a.m.

@macjont: Many public schools have legally implemented a uniform policy and had good outcomes from it. That's not to say it's worked for every school district that's attempted it, but if you're resorting to uniforms, you obviously have some issues that need to be solved with drastic measures. Definitely not something that's needed in Washtenaw county, but could be worth looking into for parts of Wayne and other struggling districts.

macjont

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 : 2:18 a.m.

Mike, I've raised two children, both of whom went through the Ann Arbor Public Schools and are currently accomplished professionals. As for "good" teachers and "bad" teachers, I think it's a little like pornography --- you can't define it, but you know it when you see it. This, however, would prove an inadequate test to determine who get fired, who gets retained, and who gets how much for his or her services. The uniforms and other private school solutions? You need to get in touch with reality here. It won't work .... unless you are ready to cast aside all those students who do not conform to you demands. The public schools do not have that luxury. Sorry, but whenever I hear or read educational solutions coming from someone so steeped in the private school approach, I have a hard time seeing further discussion as being productive.

Mike

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 10:58 p.m.

Not so tough, just ask the kids and parents. If the kids don't want to be in certain teachers classes they won't learn. If you have kids you know what I'm talking about. Have the kids wear uniforms to school so they can concentrate on learning vs. trying to get the best gangster look. They can be as indivdual as they want once they get home or graduate. Most private schools require uniforms for a reason, they've figured out something the public sector hasn't.

macjont

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 7:03 p.m.

Mick52. Testing is essential, but it must be properly done, with the proper purposes in mind. My wife, after a 40 year career in the classroom (I believe a successful one), spent the last 4 years of her educational career working with a Michigan program called "Reading First." It involved one more layer of testing that produced a narrowly focused curriculum that, in the end, was harmful for the education of the students. If you have not done so already, I urge your to read Diane Ravitch's "The Death and Life of the Great American School System: How Testing and Choice Are Undermining Education." She shows the dangers of "testing" and other current panaceas for our educational problems, and she provides alternatives. How one structures pay under those alternatives, I am now sure.

Mick52

Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 6:04 p.m.

I agree with you on your first point, evaluating success and effectiveness of teachers may be the key element. But I do not understand the problem with testing. How else do you judge a student's learning? I think it could be revealing to see if students are mastering certain aspects of education and I can think of no way to determine that unless students are tested.