In wake of school shootings, officials say it's not feasible to have an armed guard at every building
A week after the tragic shooting in Newtown, Conn., National Rifle Association Vice President Wayne LaPierre called for an armed guard in every school to help prevent similar incidents from happening again.
But in Washtenaw County, school officials said posting guards or police officers at schools is simply not financially feasible.
The issue of school security continues to be a concern for school officials and parents alike in the wake of the Connecticut tragedy. A teenager's shooting and critically wounding another student in a California school Thursday could thrust the issue further into the limelight.
Representatives from Ann Arbor Public Schools, Ypsilanti Public Schools, Lincoln Consolidated Schools and Saline Area Schools all said their districts are reviewing their safety procedures in the wake of the Newtown tragedy. However, at this point, adding more security — in the form of additional police liaison officers or armed guards — is not on the table.
Steve Laatsch, assistant superintendent of instructional services in Saline, said the district held a meeting last week to get the the review of school security started. At this point, increasing the amount of armed security in school buildings isn’t being talked about, he said.
“Financially, we aren’t in a position to house every school with a police officer,” he said.
Saline Area Schools splits the cost of the liaison officer at Saline High School with the Pittsfield Township Department of Public Safety. Laatsch said the total cost to the district to have the officer at the high school is $47,000.
Ann Arbor Public Schools used to have police liaison officers at Pioneer High School, pictured here, and at its two other comprehensive high schools, but they were eliminated to save money.
Ann Arbor Public Schools was paying approximately $350,000 per year to keep liaison officers at Huron, Pioneer and Skyline high schools before ending the program before this school year to save money.
Ann Arbor schools spokeswoman Liz Margolis said the district is working with the Ann Arbor Police Department to review risk assessment plans at each of the schools in the district.
“I do not believe we would opt for armed guards at our schools,” she said.
Ellen Bonter, superintendent of Lincoln Consolidated Schools, said having a liaison officer in schools is not the only thing that determines the safety level of a building. Officers are just one level of the precautions districts take to protect their students, she said.
The Washtenaw County Sheriff’s Office has one deputy assigned to the school district. A new deputy was recently assigned to the district. The previous liaison officer had worked in the district for 11 years, Bonter said.
She said the relationships liaison officers develop with students, staff and the school community are more important to school safety than the gun holstered at the deputy’s waist.
“This relationship extends to our children, our parents, our staff and others that interact with our schools,” Bonter said. “That is so much more valuable, and provides much more security within our community, than any simple security guard function.”
Some officials are also concerned about the effect having an armed guard in every school would have on the students who are in the buildings every day.
Sharon Irvine, executive director of human resources at Ypsilanti schools, said the armed liaison officer is important to safety at the middle and high school levels. However, she’s not positive having an armed guard in the district’s elementary schools would do any good.
“Armed officers are critical for the safety of YPS students in secondary buildings,” she said. “However, it is not likely to make elementary buildings safer, except to handle a rare situation like Newtown.”
Laatsch said it’s possible to argue a school would be safer with an armed police officer in each building. But, Laatsch said district officials have to be careful to keep school buildings vibrant places of learning and having officers patrolling the hallways with guns could detract from that atmosphere.
“My own opinion is we have to be careful about what we turn schools into,” he said, adding officials have to consider “the overall impact of what schools become when you start doing that.”
Instead of making rash decisions in the wake of a tragedy, Laatsch said Saline officials want to make sure any new policy is measured and well thought out.
There are a lot of ideas being proposed and discussions will be taking place during the course of the month on how to improve security in schools, Laatsch said. There are safety plans for every building in the district and those are being reviewed as well.
“We’re being proactive about this and looking at policies and procedures, but we’re not going to enact some policy that doesn’t make sense because we’re being reactive,” he said.
Kyle Feldscher covers police and courts for AnnArbor.com. Contact him at kylefeldscher@annarbor.com or 734-623-2537.
Comments
L. C. Burgundy
Tue, Jan 15, 2013 : 4:52 p.m.
The obvious solution is to allow those teachers and school officials which choose to take appropriate training to be allowed to carry concealed in the school and to stop abrogating or banning the right of adults to self-defense in schools. Our beloved governor vetoed this option, however. I remain befuddled at the idea that you can somehow decrease violence by decreasing an innocent's ability to defend him or herself.
Ihatetobethatguy
Tue, Jan 15, 2013 : 11:39 p.m.
hmmm...I don't like the idea of teachers packing. I did teach for many years and own guns, but don't carry and would not had I been given the option. However, there are many administrators and other staff who are not in the classroom who could work. Also, because of the school calendar training could (and should) be much more extensive. So I would propose: Non-classroom staff can carry IF -They complete 60 hours of training Every year (2 weeks in July or August) -3 day long refresher courses during the school year -Written approval from the district super AND school principal Otherwise I think we leave it to the cops.
Paul Wiener
Tue, Jan 15, 2013 : 3:42 p.m.
Just in case the sheer lunacy - or is it sociopathology? - of having armed guards posted at every school "entrance" isn't enough to discredit the idea, here is another reason: almost no school has only one entrance. Most schools have several, even many entrances: each would need an armed guard. But wait: why have them only at school entrances and exits? Why not on every school bus? At every school sporting event? At every PTA meeting? At every pep rally? At every band practise? Why expect a crazed gunman to storm only a single event, location or entrance? The cost of arming a "guard" alone at every school - not to mention teachers, principals, janitors, secretaries - students? - whoever - should be multiplied by dozens of times before one felt "safe" enough to proceed with the first 35-minute class. It amazes and sickens me that this conversation is taking place.
hail2thevict0r
Tue, Jan 15, 2013 : 8:09 p.m.
True, which is why you need to remove the "gun free zone" IMO. It's certainly not the answer, but just the thought that someone may have a firearm may be deterrent enough. If no one does, obviously the same result could happen. But I'm not so sure why people are afraid of allowing legal, responsible, people from carrying in these "gun free" areas? There are over 1 million CCL holders in Michigan and how many times have you heard of one of them going on a rampage? I haven't heard of a single case. There is reason that all of these shootings happen mostly in "gun free" zones. Along with proper education, tightening of regulations on purchasing firearms (all sales have a background check) and further enforcing the laws on the books should really help in decreasing gun violence. But nothing, short of rounding up all the guns in the country, will stop a shooting if our only answer is to ban assault rifles.
Mike
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 7:20 p.m.
Along the presidents line of reasoning we should get rid of cars "if it saves the life of one child", along that line of thinking they should never leave the house since they risk infectious diseases, accidents, and life in general................we'll never rid the world of dangerous whackos, but the progressive whackos are working on trying to control every eventuality in our lives, so that should make us all feel safer..........
Enso
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 2:15 p.m.
"officials say it's not feasible to have an armed guard at every building" That, and it doesn't work. Columbine had an armed guard. University of Virginia had an entire police station on campus. Children's blood is on your hands, NRA.
Mitch
Tue, Jan 15, 2013 : 8:23 p.m.
Funny, Gun control + bigotry == genocide. Just ask the people of Khmer Rouge; Tutsi people; Armenians. Or a little closer to home, where Gun control is prevalent in Mexico. And NO America does not allow us to have RPG's or full auto, but Mexican official's still have the audacity to blame the US.
hail2thevict0r
Tue, Jan 15, 2013 : 8:06 p.m.
Officials tend to agree that having the armed guard at Columbine did, in fact, some some lives.
Enso
Tue, Jan 15, 2013 : 2:10 p.m.
Cars and guns... radically different. Your false-equivalency fails. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence
Bcar
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 6:11 p.m.
whatever enso, you dont know what you're talking about. columbine did have an officer, who was TOLD and trained to WAIT for SWAT and NOT enter the building... you cherry picked one school that had an officer, what about alllll the other schools in the country who have an officer or other armed security, teachers etc, how many mass shootings have happened to all of those schools??? exactly, just one, Columbine.. guess the DOT has the blood of even more children on its hands for not banning cars, that just so happen to kill even more kids...
david craven
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 2:14 p.m.
We protect out money , politions, and hollywood elite with firearms why not our future leaders. It seems they are the most inportant to us as when the GOVERNMENT wants something passed they say it's for the kids. Try to figure that out? Years ago we had a place for these deranged people but in the wisdom of not hurting their feelings we shut them all down and let them do what they want to us. Hey but the government is looking out for us or are they?
Rugeirn Drienborough
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 2:07 p.m.
From the South China Morning Post, retrieved Jan 10, 2013: "Repercussions from a Henan school knife attack that injured 23 pupils last month are still being felt as Beijing security officials announced on Wednesday that every kindergarten, and primary and middle school in China will hire at least one full-time security officer." The Chinese not only think it's a good idea, and that they can afford it--they're actually doing it.
Bcar
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 12:22 p.m.
How much $$ in total is spend on multi-layer school FIRE SAFETY (building materials, fire codes, sprinklers, drills, etc), compare that to how much $ and thought goes into school violence safety...
Bcar
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 11:37 a.m.
The city will WASTE $700k+ on a crappy water sculpture, but our kids aren't work that much??? Pfftt... And its not feasible to put armed security in each school?? BS! SURE IT IS! JUST TRAIN AND ARM any TEACHER who wants it!!
Tru2Blu76
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 4:49 a.m.
Just gotta add RE: "But in Washtenaw County, school officials said posting guards or police officers at schools is simply not financially feasible." -- Of course this make sense on the surface. But that kind of dismissive thinking ALSO tends to eliminate AN ARRAY of alternatives which are effective defense against the kind of attacker this is all about. None of our school officials seem familiar with the idea of consulting experts in security. Frankly, I'm amazed at the lack of initiative displayed by Wayne LaPierre but FRANKLY I'm equally amazed at the lack of initiative displayed by school officials ( up to and including Mary Sue Coleman!). An alarmed, bullet-proof security door costs a couple hundred bucks. I bet if a new statue of Mary Sue Coleman were recommended, there'd be plenty of contributions (to meet a much higher price). Come on, folks, you've all heard of American ingenuity and many of you know something about American engineering too - the kind which has been doing "the impossible" for going on two centuries. If you think you're going to fail: you will. I'm just not buying into that. Interesting: at the first word about financial sacrifice all the proud "defenders of children" suddenly turn tail and disappear (or applaud the ridiculous notion that says "it can't be done"). You wan't high cost? Try telling us that 80 million non-criminal gun owners will give up their 300 million guns for UNDER 3 billion dollars.
Tru2Blu76
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 4:02 a.m.
1, RE: A2comments wrote; "The NRA represents just over 1% of our citizens. We, the other 98.8%,... " Actually, the NRA has only 4 million members but is a very potent spokesman for the 80 million gun owners in the US. So A2comments understates his case by a factor of 20. Gun ownership is becoming more of a staple of American life. 12 years ago, only ~48000 Michigan adults had CPLs. Today that number is 351,000 and growing by about 24,000 per year. 2. More importantly RE: "Instead of making rash decisions in the wake of a tragedy, Laatsch said Saline officials want to make sure any new policy is measured and well thought out." Well thought out? How about the 20 year delay in providing proper security doors in schools? School vandals commonly break into schools. All schools shootings were done by young men with meager ability - and succeeded as much because of incompetent efforts to ADEQUATELY PROTECT our precious children and teachers as any other factor. (Same applies to businesses which attend only to their immediate security interest and what they're forced to do by law. 3. Cost / Benefit analysis is fine. But when did it become more cost effective to disarm 80 million non-criminal citizens vs. providing available security for everyone? If everyone cares about protecting children as much as they claim: then it follows they'll stand ready to find ways to fund some version of armed protection (including volunteer teachers who will be trained - probably by federal funding - to carry well concealed guns while on duty. The proposal (gun bans, mandated removal of certain kinds of gun magazines, etc) of gun phobics and over-excited, easily manipulated adults isn't a policy which is "measured and well thought out." - It's an outright stampede. We'll know what kind of mistake a stampede is: after we've run right over the edge of the cliff.
martini man
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 3:25 a.m.
Here's an idea .....Each school could fire one liberal teacher, and hire an armed guard. Money much better spent with no increase in budget. The liberal would never be missed, and the guard could come in mighty handy. Of course this will never happen, but it's just an idea. I don't think those signs saying "Gun free Zone " will actually dissuade anyone bent on mayhem. Sorta like those signs proclaiming "Drug Free Zone " ..
Radlib2
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 3:57 a.m.
All the best teachers are liberals;professors, too, for that matter, as most of the people with advanced degrees are liberal. Look at the states with he mot highly-educated populus, nine out of the of them are liberal. The bottom ten are red states.
Steven Taylor
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 2:31 a.m.
They've got no money to arm the school resource officers.. Which are already sworn officers usually with WCSD... (At least they were when I was an Ypsi Student) why not just tell the officers to carry their side arm? But we've got plenty of public money that's taxed out of us for goofy art in downtown A2?
genetracy
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 2:11 a.m.
Posting an armed guard in every school is about as unfeasible as confiscating every assault rifle in the country.
Tru2Blu76
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 4:22 a.m.
Maybe you haven't heard about American ingenuity (or American engineering). It IS feasible to protect school kids and teachers. It's just that none of the commonly available, effective access control methods have ever been tried IN schools.
LXIX
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 2:02 a.m.
Most humans have the ability to kill. And reason out why not to. It is a mutual survival processing that keeps us at peace (discounting idiot warmongers). Guns and security can sway many of the undecided away from violence - but not all. The only solution is to make it impossible for everyone to kill (itself impossible if they are to be free thinkers). Or ensure that those few incapable of "consensus reasoning" are confined by therapy, bars, and/or medication. Wait a just a CinC, that means that Bush and Obama would have had to leave office.
talker
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 11:11 p.m.
The most unbelievable comments in this discussion come from posters who claim the Connecticut massacre didn't really happy and is a hoax with memorial sites being established before what they consider a hoax attack. Please ask the parents if their children are dead. Please ask spouses and children if their wives and parents are dead. Please ask the survivors if it was a hoax. While you're at it, stay away from sites that evade the facts. Second, there was an inconsistency in the claim that if the principal had a gun that was locked up in her office (to keep children from getting it), the principal and the 25 others would have still been killed. The attacker came in shooting and there was no time to unlock a gun, aim it, and shoot.
Tru2Blu76
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 4:14 a.m.
Discounting tinfoil helmet claims, I still have to point out that you've set up a syllogistic argument re: armed school personnel. Obviously, a legitimate defensive setup allows a trained person to carry a concealed handgun, be protected by commonly available intrusion barriers which PREVENT surprise attacks, and to deliver effective fire against armed intruders IF they do get inside. Access control / intrusion prevention is a well developed concept which is widely used: EXCEPT in public schools. Maybe you don't believe in the right to self defense, but maybe you can believe in protecting children and school teachers?
G. Orwell
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 12:04 a.m.
talker What I stated are FACTS. Unless facts do not matter to you, I'd suggest you do your research. Don't believe everything you are told by the media. Think for yourself.
talker
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 11:12 p.m.
Obviously, I meant "happen" instead of "happy."
grye
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 10:33 p.m.
An armed cop in every school across the country? And when mentally ill people take out their vengeance in malls and other places, will we require an armed guard in every store? At what cost do we want our safety to be 100%? This will bankrupt us just as the wars in the Middle East and our inept congress (you know, the ones with no fiscal sense) have been doing to us for years.
Ihatetobethatguy
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 7:10 p.m.
As a gun owner and parent I do feel that a responsible and reasonable consensus can be found. -Background checks on ALL firearm purchases. No more private sales, every purchase must go through an FFL. -Background checks to include mental health records. If someone has been flagged as a danger to themselves or others, they will be denied, with an appeal process. -If someone fails a background check or is denied purchase for some reason the local authorities should be notified. Adam Lanza tried to buy a firearm prior to the shooting. I was not there so I can't say what happened but such a system could have avoided the tragedy. -Armed guards in the schools. My children went to a local private school for many years and every day we went we were greeted by the armed security guard. He was a class act and I felt my kids were safer because of him. Many of those in Congress writing our laws send their children to schools with armed guards. Though I do believe there should be a much higher level of training for armed school guards and I do not believe teachers should have guns in their classrooms. For those who say that Columbine shows armed guards don't work, it was my understanding that the liaison officers were out of the building at the time of the shooting. Further, it is my understanding that at the time the procedure was to wait for the SWAT before going into a building to engage a shooter so that's what the officers did. As a result, the procedure has been changed. -5% tax on all 30 round mags and "assault rifles"—proceeds to go to school security plans and mental health research. From what I've read these guns are used in about 5% of shootings. -8 hour course required for all handgun purchases. Most shootings are done with handguns. Would also cut down on straw purchases -8 hour Carbine course required for all "assault rifle" purchases
Klly76
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 7:45 p.m.
Now if only the govt had enough sense to sit down & come up with such a plan. They would rather wait for another tragedy to occur to try and further prove their point and disarm the American people. Yet EVERYWHERE they go (i.e. President) they are surrounded by "armed" men and women that are protecting their lives!
Riverman
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 7:35 p.m.
Very well stated and is inclusive of numerous items to reach the desired outcome. Just not some feel good think like banning guns which is not going to eliminate the killings.
Fat Bill
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 6:58 p.m.
I can hardly find the right people to drive truck for twice minimum wage...why would you believe schools would be SAFER with armed guards working for McDonald's type wages? You want fries with that?
Klly76
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 6:33 p.m.
I completely agree with G. Orwell. There are so many discrepencies in the story, It makes you wonder who you can trust these days. The facts are so suspect and it seems as if there is a much larger agenda at hand. The whole thing is quite disturbing and the american people need to open their eyes before its too late.
a2citizen
Tue, Jan 15, 2013 : 1:02 a.m.
George, Re-read my post. I definitely don't trust the media.
G. Orwell
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 10:14 p.m.
a2citizen But, without any evidence, you will trust the media that lied to us about WMDs in Iraq, I've got a brand new bridge on Stadium I'd like to sell you. I will give you a great price for it.
a2citizen
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 4:13 p.m.
George, No, a police scanner is not good enough.
G. Orwell
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 4:01 a.m.
a2citizen Is a police radio scanner stating that the black Honda belongs to Chris Rodia good enough for you? Please Google it. Also, two men were arrested behind the school. One man ran away from the police. Three police officers gave chase and caught the guy. He was handcuffed and brought out of the woods and placed in the police car. He was wearing a black top and camouflage pants. Exactly what we were told Adam Lanza was wearing. I thought Adam Lanza acted alone. Yet another "lone gunman" theory. If you are not informed, please Google it. Everything I've told you is FACT.
a2citizen
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 3:47 a.m.
Please state the discrepancies released by the police/government. Not something you read in some online blog, published by an itinerant journalist, or info provided by an unnamed source. Also, please provide a link to the alleged discrepancy.
G. Orwell
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 3:44 a.m.
Jonnta2 Just listen to the police radio scanner. They clearly reveal that the black Honda belongs to Chris Rodia. Which means Adam Lanza did not drive his mother's Honda (Nancy Lanza owns a white BMW) to SH. Thus, the entire official conspiracy theory cannot be true. Furthermore, there are memorial, tribute, fund raising websites/Facebook pages that were created days and weeks before 12/14/12. I am merely stating facts you may not be aware of. Maybe if you were informed, you may come to a different conclusion than the official one.
johnnya2
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 2:54 a.m.
@GOrwell, YOU are the one required to prove your crackpot theory. If YOU believe it is a staged event PROVE it . We can not prove a negative. No credible evidence exists. In fat, I could say gun manufacturers staged this event to make people more afraid that gun sales would be restricted so it would improve their bottom lines. There now we both have theories.
G. Orwell
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 12:01 a.m.
Brad It is typical. When you cannot prove something, you call people names. Please grow up.
northside
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 11:42 p.m.
@ Brad: LOL.
Brad
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 9:47 p.m.
What's your position on the moon landing?
Klly76
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 6:13 p.m.
It is not the responsible, registered gun owners that pose a threat to society. The criminals will obtain guns regardless of any laws. People only ask for changes in gun laws when a tragedy occurs. Rarely do you hear of the stories of people who survived horrific crimes because they were able to defend themselves. With all of our armed forces returning over the next few years coupled with extremely high unemployment rates, there is NO reason we shouldnt be able to put armed officers in every school in America. I also believe that any teacher with a permit and the proper training should be able to carry in school. It wont solve all problems but it would definitely make any criminal think twice before entering a school and harming innocent human beings. Again, its not the responsible gun owners or the gus. #TRUTH
Bcar
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 12:13 p.m.
got any facts johnnya2 that PROVES more guns = more deaths? we'll be waiting...a long time...
johnnya2
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 2:52 a.m.
So, when that teacher is confronted with somebody trying to do a crime and that teacher shoots an innocent person are you going to be ok with that? The armed security at Columbine TWICE missed a shooter, so you really believe a TEACHER will be able to hit somebody? I would also say maybe you nee dot spend some time in a school. What happens when the first student gets a hold of a gun and decides it is possibly a toy or accidentally kills another person. You still can not comprehend that more guns means more gun deaths PERIOD. Based on your theory of more guns, there should not be fewer nuclear weapons but MORE. We should let Iran have them. In fact each of us should have one for ourselves so we can "defend" ourselves>
Mick52
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 5:46 p.m.
I am glad this idea is being disregarded. I don't think it would make much difference. You lock the doors, people still get in. People hold the door for you, the kids will let you in. I am as qualified as anyone to be an armed guard in a school but it would drive me nuts. These schools are big. What door should I be near? What if a shooter comes in at the other end of the building? Can I go to the bathroom? It only takes seconds for a shooter to cause a huge impact. He would likely shoot himself before anyone with a gun could show up at the scene. Also the cost issue. You do it and nothing happens and some number of years down the road you will be wondering why you are paying for it. It is horrible but the reality is it just does not occur often enough to do something like arming people in schools. Put the resources in mental health care and try to identify people that could turn violent.
Tru2Blu76
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 5:22 a.m.
I agree overall: a lot can be done that hasn't been done. I disagree with your scenario, though. A properly prepared security system would do three things: 1. prevent entry, 2. send an alarm to those inside & to the local PD to speed first responders, 3. Provide cover for the armed defender while reducing cover for any attackers. No "prison-like" school - everything is made to look normal until the critical moment. Actually theres 4: alarms pin point the location of the attackers while the attackers have no idea of the location of defenders. So far, all the school shooting have been done by youths with meager ability and resources (most stole the guns they used). They were not trained as assault troops, by any means. So if you (or I) were given the job of protecting a school, we'd be backed by A PLAN and resources (like having places of cover and an alarm system). Any delay caused by distance to scene would be compensated either by completely blocking entry or delaying it. Having police notification alarms: police routinely patrol school neighborhoods, so they could arrive quickly and provide "guns outside" while you (or I) provided "guns inside." This arrangement would be as widely known as police response to bank robberies: providing a potent deterrent to would-be mass killers.
music to my ear
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 5:43 p.m.
what ever it takes, what ever it cost there is nothing in this world more important than protecting our kids and what is so sad it could happen any where at any time it took the shooting at conn to finally get through the government that this can no longer go on. open more hospital for the mentally ill .arm the teachers, put in scanners to detect guns whatever it takes.
G. Orwell
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 5:42 p.m.
This whole SH shooting is very suspect. There is not a single piece of evidence to back up the official claims. No evidence and the evidence presented have all been debunked. For example, the black Honda Civic found at the school did no belong to Adam Lanza's mother. When the police ran the plate number of the Honda, the owner came up as Chris Rodia. Also, there are numerous SH memorial/tribute websites that were created prior to the shooting. These are FACTS. Please look it up.
G. Orwell
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 3:54 a.m.
Jonnya2 Another fact you may not be aware of is that two men were arrested at the back of the school. One man was chased into the woods by three police officers. He was caught and put in handcuffs and brought out of the woods and placed in the police car. He was wearing black top with camouflage pants. Exactly what Adam Lanza was described wearing. There is an AP helicopter footage of the chase. Again, if you are not well informed, Google it!
G. Orwell
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 3:33 a.m.
jonnya2 So, facts don't matter to you? Then you are the crack pot. I am sorry if what I said bothers people. But, the truth is the truth. I am market stating the truth.
johnnya2
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 2:48 a.m.
I don;t need to look up crack pot theories. Just as I do not believe GWB blew up the WTC. If you believe people could put together a coordinated effort to stage an event like this, you really need to seek help.
G. Orwell
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 11:59 p.m.
northside Did you actually look at the facts/evidence or are you merely drinking the MSM/government kool aid? I'd suggest you research and think for yourself. Did Iraq have WMDs?
northside
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 11:42 p.m.
Wow, that's a truly impressive level of conspiracy paranoia!
G. Orwell
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 8:06 p.m.
This is a BIG HOAX to attempt to confiscate firearms.
johnnya2
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 5:24 p.m.
1. Columbine had TWO armed officers on premises. How did that one work out for them? 2. Video games/movies have nothing to do with it, since these games and movies are sold worldwide, yet the majority of these types of crimes happen in the US> 3. Those who think guns are protection should ask the shooters mom in Newtown how having all her protection worked out for her. If she did not decide to bring guns into her home I doubt this massacre happens. There is NOTHING in the constitution that says arms can not be registered, in much the same way, I can not say, I am the religion of JOHNNYA2 and all my income is now tax exempt or that I am free to sacrifice virgins at the alter because my religion says it is ok.
johnnya2
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 2:43 a.m.
@Mick http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2012/12/21/columbine_armed_guard_colorado_shooting_shows_that_nra_s_shield_program.html
Mick52
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 5:48 p.m.
No 1 is interesting, do you have some documentation on that? First I have heard that. Up to your post I have read Columbine had to wait for swat teams to show up. Or did the shooter kill himself before the school's officers showed up?
Bogie
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 4:54 p.m.
Yep, there's not enough money to have an armed guard in schools. How about taking the security (cops, checkpoints) out of the courthouse, and use them. Oh wait.....we can't do that. We have to protect our elected officials. They are way more important than children.
Mick52
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 5:49 p.m.
You want to see that in schools? I think it is overboard at the court house.
Stan Hyne
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 4:51 p.m.
Every television program that kills 6 people per hour most likely desensitizes people. Bad as the killings were, trying to change the world to prevent the next nut probably will not solve the problem. Having armed guards in every school, mall, store, and house in the United States will not solve the problem. The problem is us, live with it.
Bcar
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 12:09 p.m.
dont need an armed "guard." just armed citizens if they want to be.
Basic Bob
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 4:55 p.m.
I like those shows. It is escapist fantasy. I don't shoot at people, do drugs, torture people, rape, and kidnap just because I see it on TV.
Nicholas Urfe
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 4:27 p.m.
So it is too expensive? The millions in after school sports spending is more important?
AMOC
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 7:04 p.m.
Unfortunately, yes. Athletics are more important to our school staff than safety or academic achievement. We have high school classes starting at 7:30 or 7:45 am ENTIRELY because swapping the start time with elementary schools would interfere with athletic practices.
mgoscottie
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 5:45 p.m.
Honestly, compared to the extremely remote chance of a tragedy occurring in the safest world that has ever existed and the unlikelihood of anything happening positive, probably...
clownfish
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 4:25 p.m.
I am pleased to see so many people supporting more mental health screening. Now go phone your legislatures and tell them to stop cutting funding! This has been a particular interest of many GOP politicians, including our own Gov Engler, who SLASHED mental health facility funding years ago. The last GOP led federal House voted 33 times to defund/kill "Obamacare", which seeks to increase access to mental health care. Many House republicans voted against Bush era rules that would have required health insurance companies to cover mental health care. Last I looked only one GOP governor was willing to accept new Medicaid rules that would help cover mental health care. They have also slashed funding for police, fire and teachers. I like the Pogo quote.
genetracy
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 2:17 a.m.
JFK was the president who emptied the state hospitals and dumped the patients on the streets back in the ealy 60's. So you think the problem has only recently come to light becuase the evil house republicans slashed funding?
Michigan Man
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 1:24 a.m.
Some people get so lost in this debate. My condolences to those who are so confused that they cannot see the simple, direct and practical solutions that are so obvious.
Max
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 5:26 p.m.
Clownfish is so reasonable. It is the clowns (the likes of Jon Stewart) who tells the truth ...
AnnArBo
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 4:19 p.m.
Interesting that when Bill Clinton proposed and passed his COPS program, that was supported by Pelosi and Reid, which provided federal money for police in high schools, it was widely hailed as a great program. Today this same idea is seen as somehow being foolish by those same people.
AnnArBo
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 11:58 p.m.
You can do the practical thing, increase securty, or the political thing, pass more laws.
clownfish
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 4:34 p.m.
The COPS (Community Oriented Policing Services) program was not about putting cops in just schools. It was about Community Policing, police in schools being one part. And the GOP opposed it then. It was not long after Wayne LaPierre said armed government agents were "jack booted thugs". Now the GOP appears to seek a government solution as well, hiring more armed government employees with (I suppose) an increase in taxes to pay for it? So yes, people flip flop. Just ask the guy that signed an "assault weapon" ban in his state then ran with support of the NRA ,for President.
GoNavy
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 4:10 p.m.
I'm going to sit back and watch as nothing happens. The President doesn't have the power, the Democrats don't have the votes, and the Republicans don't have the will.
Tru2Blu76
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 7:48 a.m.
The Republicans, as much as I dislike them, HAVE the will to protect everyone's right to self defense. So I'm guessing you think that's the "wrong" kind of will. I'm no Republican supporter, but I'll go with whichever side knows what's right in this area. The Democrats don't have the votes - because their "will" is contrary to human interest. And they eventually won't hold the office they currently hold - BECAUSE of their obviously errant ideology AND the 45-year failure of gun control laws.
northside
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 11:40 p.m.
Odds are you're right: nothing will happen at the political level. In the meantime, a lot will happen at the personal level: more mass shootings.
ArthGuinness
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 3:50 p.m.
The last few mass shootings have involved quite a bit of planning. Knowning there's an armed guard in every school simply changes the first step in that plan. A well-planned surprise attack on a poorly trained armed guard (or "liaison officer") would usually be successful, although it could slow down the attack and alert the police earlier. I'm not necessarily against it, it's just massively expensive when perhaps we could do more cost-effective things. There's plenty of things to do to reduce gun violence, but there's other aspects as well. For example, start funding mental health programs again. Switch the stupid standards for TV where a nipple is evil but any amount of violence is A-OK. Etc.
Tru2Blu76
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 7:40 a.m.
What do you consider to be "quite a bit of planning??" All of the "plans" which have come out of post-shooting investigations typically amount to one or two youths getting ticked off and deciding on murderous "revenge" on some real or imagined "offenders." How much planning did the two Columbine shooters do - other than break into one kid's grandfathers gun cabinet. How much planning did Adam Lanza do - other than to decide he could more easily kill his mother to get her guns vs the difficulty he had trying to buy one? Set up arguments are annoying: only you say an armed school guard would be "poorly armed." That's flawed reasoning, the intention is exactly the opposite. And how does a youth "surprise" a properly trained and prepared armed adult guard?? And you pre-define school defense plans developed by security experts as "massively expensive." Another set up argument. Highly annoying, because commonly available, affordable equipment and personnel already exist. I've talked to an architectural engineer who's familiar with school designs. He agrees: just having PROPERLY MADE security doors would be a big step toward stopping most attackers completely. They are not "massively expensive" especially because they'd do what Obama-Biden-Feinstein-Mary Sue Coleman FAILED TO DO: making such common security available for schools. As for armed personnel: it's been repeated several times: teachers may want to volunteer to be armed (with something effective, not just guns). Such defensive weapons can be concealed from the kids and in trained hands have been proven more effective than EMPTY HANDS. If you think negatively, Mr. Guinness, you will get negative results. Among my friends is a woman who has a Master's in psychology: she also goes armed. And she had to shoot and kill an ex-con who followed her home, broke in and attacked her.
Technojunkie
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 3:35 p.m.
Repeal the "gun-free zone" laws that make schools defenseless targets for suicidal murderers. Most of these shooters either surrender or kill themselves at the first sign of armed resistance. Offer to pay the training and CPL cost for school employees, maybe $300 each. Then go about the hard work of dealing with the mental health issues these killers have. Get it through your heads that bad guys don't obey laws. The ease at which certain people (you know who you are) can acquire marijuana ought to be instructive. Disarmament of the civilian population is the primary prerequisite for dictatorship. Gun registries are the primary prerequisite for disarmament, which is why I'd like to see the blatantly unconstitutional CPL system dismantled in favor of constitutional carry but getting the government to obey their constitutional restraints seems like a lost cause. Remember this next time some politician loudly proclaims their support of gun control. The Germans thought "it can't happen here" too.
Mitch
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 8:46 p.m.
I do legally go into "gun free zones".
Wehrwolf
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 8:43 p.m.
+1 for repealing "Gun Free School Zones". Of all the mass shootings in which more than 3 people were killed in the last 50 years, ALL occurred in a "Gun Free Zone" except for the Gabby Giffords shooting, which happened outside in a parking lot. We've tried this failed "experiment" for far too long. Signs don't deter criminals hellbent on killing. A person on site, whether it be an on/off duty LEO, security guard, or armed civilian can and has deterred mass shooters. They don't need to be Navy SEALS or SWAT operators to potentially make a difference; they just have to be speed humps to slow the shooter down, make it harder for him to kill, and allow people to escape. There is no "worse alternative" than allowing a nutcase to run unopposed, shooting people at will.
jns131
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 5:20 p.m.
Interesting thought here. The gunman in Aurora who did the theater shooting? The reason he chose that theater was because of a sign in their window. The sign said Gun Free Zone. What a better target then this to see what he can get away with.
clownfish
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 3:52 p.m.
The German Nazis came after unions too. Would you support laws strengthening the structure of unions? Perhaps the overturning of the new "right to work" law? They also hated and cooked gay people. Do you support laws granting gay people protection from discrimination? Do you think the GOP would join you in that support in an attempt to keep us from becoming like Nazi Germany? And they had a strong sense of Nationalism, do you support less pride in Nation and more in Community? They also used Arabic Numerals, would you support the ending of the use of Arabic Numerals in classrooms?
clownfish
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 3:47 p.m.
Who is calling for a "Disarmament of the civilian population"? What do you see as a "well regulated militia"? Would record keeping fall into that category?
hepcat
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 3:34 p.m.
It's the NRA's idea, let them pay for armed guards in schools. They could use a fraction of the money that they to lobby politicians.
Tru2Blu76
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 6:22 a.m.
The "NRA's idea" as you put it is but one of a list of possible, reasonable alternatives - MADE TO ADDRESS a serious problem (school insecurity). It's not just the NRA suggestion - though it was presented incompletely and poorly overall. It's an idea in the heads of every adult who has faced threats to their lives and safety or to the lives of people they care about (including other people's kids). So, other than sarcasm, what have you got in the way of reasonable, effective defense for school kids and teachers? I've be very interested to know because I'm concerned for my daughter, who's a U of M grad and a grade school teacher.. BTW: since she once held an NRA firearms instructor certificate, I find it easy to believe she would make a fine gun-carrying guard for her students. Both you and Wolf's Bane would do well to get over your ideological high. Your support of Obama-Thoughts will likely result in an all-Republican government before long. You both make the choice a lot easier. :-)
Wolf's Bane
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 9:19 p.m.
Better yet, get the NRA out of policy making. I have had it with these death clowns.
buvda fray
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 3:23 p.m.
Why isn't anyone talking about pepper spray? It's not a bullet shield but it can reduce fatalities in a gun battle emergency. Airline pilots self-select if they feel willing and able to carry firearms. I would be in favor of the teachers at my kids' school self-selecting to do training and carry pepper spray. I could even see recurrent disaster and defense training being mandatory even if the pepper spray part was optional.
Wehrwolf
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 8:36 p.m.
Pepper spray (OC) and other chemical agents have their place but are not the best response to a threat of lethal force such as seen in an active shooter scenario. They may not incapacitate the attacker enough to make him stop; most OC systems do not have the range necessary to effectively stop someone who is, for example, at the far end of the room or hallway; there is the risk of the defender becoming incapacitated themselves; you would contaminate an enclosed space such as a classroom; mil-surp gas masks are cheaply available and would completely neutralize an OC defense. It is clear you don't have very much understanding of pepper spray, or self defense in general. I would highly encourage you to look into an actual organized class that covers these topics, such as the one linked below. If you are willing to look there are many excellent training programs in Michigan alone that are taught by highly experienced individuals who actually do know what they are talking about. Hollywood and TV isn't the best place to learn what being in a true defensive situation is like. http://www.michigantrainer.com/index.php/event/less-lethal-centerline-22/?eID=71
mgoscottie
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 5:43 p.m.
I like your idea, I keep nitric acid just in case, but pepper spray would be good for those that don't have chemical access....
clownfish
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 3:19 p.m.
No doubt, in order to keep our freedoms our children need to be overseen by armed government agents and be required to go through metal detectors as often as possible.( Except at airports, because the TSA [tasked with keeping our children safe] is a useless government agency, according to conservative commentators,- ) And no taxes should be raised to supply these new protectors of freedoms. And we should hire the lowest bidder, then complain about bad government when the lowest bidder fails to secure our children in locked down, guarded facilities where they are forced to recite a Pledge written by a Socialist. It's what "less government in our lives" voters want.
Radlib2
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 3:11 p.m.
Put it up for a millage and let the voters decide.
Radlib2
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 11:28 p.m.
I wouldn't.
Bcar
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 12:01 p.m.
for once we agree! Id vote for that one!
jns131
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 5:18 p.m.
Snyder is signing laws this month, maybe sign a volunteer posse? Keep our schools safe law? Who knows where we can go with this.
Dog Guy
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 3:05 p.m.
In 1950's Detroit, students assumed that the male science teachers and administrators always were armed although we rarely glimpsed a handgun. The age of majority was 21 and we had these responsible adults protecting us. I was aware of some teachers being paid extra to coach or teach an extra class but there was never mention of paying staff to carry heat or of an ammo allowance. Mostly ex-military, they knew their duty and did it successfully. What has changed is that we teachers are no longer expected to be responsible adults.
Tru2Blu76
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 7:11 a.m.
Whoa there, Dog Guy, there you go reminding people (many too young to remember) that things were WAY different (and in some ways better) back in the fifties (and even in the sixties). I'd post about the gun club we had at our high school (early 60s) when "boys" would bring their fathers' 30-06 semi-auto rifles TO SCHOOL. But I'd probably cause some brain hemorrhages among the gun phobic crowd. Our 1963 year book actually features a full page photo of one member (age 17) posing with a rifle in front of our school. This was no country school, either. It was a suburban town just 4 miles north of Detroit. In those days, high school kids talked about fist fights but NEVER once did I hear anyone mention using a gun against "enemies." It was as you say: we never, ever thought of misusing a gun - there were too many teachers (males, mostly) who would and could kick ass to allow such thinking or talk.
aamom
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 4:21 a.m.
So many questions here...... Why did you only assume male science teachers and administrators were armed? Were the male math teachers too liberal? Why weren't the female teachers armed if that is what it took to be "responsible?" Were they irresponsible?
Brad
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 2:45 p.m.
So what can we agree on? How about instituting the same set of checks and regulations on ALL gun sales. Sporting goods stores, gun shows, person-to-person sales. All of them. There's already a system in place for doing it, it just isn't used for all transactions. Can we start with that? If you think there's a problem there, please explain.
Tru2Blu76
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 6:49 a.m.
I'm one of those who think reasonable gun regulation is working as is. But I'd caution you on a couple of points: 1. The incident which started this emotional tsunami had little or nothing to do with Adam Lanza getting a gun. He just murdered his unsuspecting mother to get her REGISTERED gun. 2. All of the mass shooters on record have a common profile - which is completely and obviously different than that of the typical gun buyer. 3. In actual numbers, the mass shooters are proven to be an extremely small minority - so regulating the other 99.999% doesn't make much sense, even from a cost/benefit standpoint. Just asking for a more clear-headed approach: IMO, it seems apparent that there's an emotion-based OVER FOCUSING on guns. Also: it may take anyone a moment of reflection but the actual history of "gun control" as an issue shows it has done little (considering the cost and injustice) to stop physical violence or violence prone individuals. That's since the Gun Control Act of 1968 - 45 years. No one thinks a thing about licensing drivers - I think it's about the same for guns. A gun owner OUGHT to be able to show he's competent to own a gun. So training and testing? Yeah, I'll sign on for that (without the usual tinfoil hat paranoia over government dictatorship, etc.). :-) We also forget the recent past. During the 1960s (the "Viet Nam War Era") the annual death toll from auto "accidents" was 55,000. That - happens to be - close to the TOTAL American death toll from TEN years of war in Viet Nam (58,000). People forget this - today, the annual death toll from automobiles is EVEN HIGHER compared to the death tolls from both Iraq and Afghanistan. Everyone wants to end the "deadly war" in Afghanistan: but if the US continued for another 165 YEARS there, the death toll would just about equal ONE year's automobile death toll.
Macabre Sunset
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 3:29 a.m.
We could. We might as well. But what would that solve?
Jim H
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 3:04 p.m.
Would your solution have had any effect on any of the shootings? No. Mental incompetence is not included in the database used for background checks. Perhaps that is a problem.
Jim H
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 2:27 p.m.
Interesting that some think Officers detract from a "vibrant atmosphere". The Officers at Lincoln were a positive influence on my kids and built long lasting friendships with many of the students and parents. Police are good guys, not Gestapo.
Jake C
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 8:49 p.m.
Like all ideas, I'd say it could be a good idea or a bad idea depending on the implementation. If you want to do it positively, I'd say you start by hiring a well-trained, highly-paid security officer, like a retired police officer or maybe a returning US Army vet, and make it their primary job to assist and spot day-to-day problems like bullying and child abuse. That helps create a positive and friendly environment. If you want to do it poorly, you could plunk down some cash on a few metal detectors and put a minimum-wage barely-trained security guard at the front door who frisks kids and inspects their Spongebob Squarepants backpacks from 8 AM - 9 AM, and also scans the IDs of adults who want to enter the school. That creates an atmosphere of paranoia and fear.
Jim H
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 4:31 p.m.
Kyle, Laatsch refers to"an" Officer in each school, not 20 or 30 in a school. If that is what he meant, it doesn't appear in the article.
Kyle Feldscher
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 3:24 p.m.
Jim H - I don't believe Steve Laatsch was saying one or two officers would detract from a positive atmosphere, instead alluding to having 20 to 30 officers in a building would be a negative.
murphthesurf
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 2:25 p.m.
350K for 3 cops ? why so much? saline only pays 47k. which seems resonable if its a full time position !!
Basic Bob
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 2:40 p.m.
Saline doesn't pay anything. Half is a grant, half is a gift from the township. Let's see what happens when the grant runs out. $94k is reasonable for a single officer in the school, once you figure in the cost of benefits and equipment. But is it necessary? They never had an officer in the school until they found the grant money, and you haven't heard of any major heroin busts or criminal investigations in the school that would justify their continuous presence. It's a nice cushy job for a union member, from a township budget that has a $1M annual surplus.
Riverman
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 2:35 p.m.
Saline splits the cost of the officer with the police department, thus the total is $94K which is still less cost than the Ann Arbor schools pay per officer.
Gramma
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 2:02 p.m.
Back in the 60's, there was a cartoon called "Pogo." there was one statement in it that became famous at the time, "We have met the enemy and it is us." A nation that must be armed against itself cannot thrive.
jcj
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 2 p.m.
While am in favor in principle for restricting or eliminating assault type weapons. That will not stop those who want to do damage and neither will absolute security in the schools. It does not take a genius to figure out a way around armed guards and locked doors.
Mike
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 12:34 p.m.
You are then in favor of disarming Americans and making them vulnerable to something worse than you can imagine..............study some history my friend
Bogie
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 4:57 p.m.
no, but it does buy time.
Wolf's Bane
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 1:58 p.m.
A armed guard at every building is just simply idiotic given that Columbine had posted an armed guard which did not prevent any of the murders. No, the way to protect our kids is to stiffen background checks, ban assault weapons, and close these gun show freak loop holes.
Mitch
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 8:39 p.m.
And those "armed guards" coward in a corner to waite for the SWAT to come in. The police have since had a change of tactics since then. -- So have I, so I go to school armed.
Macabre Sunset
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 3:27 a.m.
The armed guard helped at Columbine - he may well have saved a few lives, but he couldn't prevent the tragedy. Schools are simply too big, and this particular assault was actually well organized. To prevent this kind of thing entirely, we would need an entire squadron at each school. So, what is the price of a life taken in this manner? Do we spend everything we have to protect the schools, only to leave the buses untended? That's kind of like spending everything we have to protect airplanes when terrorists have millions of other ways to spread terror. One thing is for certain: if the media plays up a tragedy in a politically correct manner, people will respond with illogical solutions - like arming teachers or turning every school into a police camp.
Engineer
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 1:37 a.m.
There is NO gun show loophole. I have got guns at a gun show and the federal background check was done with a cell phone. I can sell a long gun to another private individual without the background check but the feds do not need to know everything. Do you need to check for DUI of a potential buyer of your used car when you sell it? No. The problem is not guns. The second amendment makes all others possible. Without it you open yourself up to the likes of Hitler.
Ihatetobethatguy
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 1:37 a.m.
1. Of all the things I've read about Columbine, this is not one of them. 2.The Assault Weapns Ban of 1994 and Brady Act are two seperate pieces of legislation. The AWB ended in 2004 and the Brady Act for background checks is still in place. 3. How about we keep the discussion civil and avoid name calling?
Wolf's Bane
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 9:17 p.m.
1. Actually, the armed guard was present, hiding ion the closet. 2. The Brady bill was watered down by the NRA, we need a REAL assault weapons ban. 3. Gosh, I had no idea we had so many gun-loving psychos living in and around Ann Arbor.
eom
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 9:12 p.m.
Exactly - they KNEW there was armed guards, yet, they figured out how to kill people despite the school being "protected". People take breaks, get sick, and aren't always in the right place at the right time. Guns. That is our problem. Period.
Ihatetobethatguy
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 7 p.m.
As was pointed out, the liason officers were out of the building when the shooting started at Columbine. At that time the proceedure was to wait unit the SWAT team came but the events of that shooting changed proceedures.
Bogie
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 5:01 p.m.
There was an assault weapon ban from 1994 to 2004. Columbine happened in 1999. K?
AnnArBo
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 4:14 p.m.
The armed guard at columbine was not on the campus when the shooting happened
Michigan Man
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 1:49 p.m.
Really surprised that the the town with the smartest people in the nation would not support armed officers in the Ann Arbor schools at the 100% level. Additionally, do not be foolish and think Ann Arbor does not have enough money to fund this fine, community oriented and proven method of protecting our young people.
Gramma
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 2:27 p.m.
Continue to ask for a police state and it will probably come about.
northside
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 1:33 p.m.
It is a sign of how crazy the U.S. has become that we're even discussing the NRA's ridiculous idea.
Bcar
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 11:54 a.m.
nortiside, do you have any idea what actually goes on in a court house? its not all crime related LOL
northside
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 11:35 p.m.
@ Bogie: A courthouse, being a courthouse, is filled with people who have been accused or convicted of crimes. A school, being a school, is filled with 7-year-olds. That's the difference.
Bogie
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 5:04 p.m.
Do you have a problem with armed guards, and checkpoints in Courthouses? If not, why? What's the difference?
Brad
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 2:34 p.m.
You took the words right out of my mouth. But the loudmouth extremes always get a lot of air time here in the US. Heck, there is one entire "news" network entirely based upon that premise.
Silly Sally
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 1:32 p.m.
Go back 20 years ago. This sort of thing never happened with the exception of the nut in Texas in 1964 and the nut who blew up the school in Michigan in 1929 or so. So, what has changed? Guns? No. Our society? Yes. How? Mental Health services, morality, video games, something. Guns are only the tool. Evil doers would only find another method. An armed guard, even two, is a silly idea. It makes as much sense as protecting me from lighting strikes by building a roof over a golf course.
jns131
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 5:15 p.m.
If they had those MRI things back then they would have found the tumor that caused the problem in the first place. Again, I agree, mental illness is the problem. Then there is the problem of the mentally ill getting those guns. How do we stop it? Good question.
GoNavy
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 4:09 p.m.
Actually Sally, it turns out that Charles Whitman (the individual who killed 14 people at the University of Texas in 1963) did in fact have a severe physical mental illness. The autopsy performed on Mr. Whitman discovered a glioblastoma (a highly aggressive and invariably fatal brain tumor) in the hypothalamus (the white matter located above the brain stem). This tumor would have proven fatal by the end of the year in which Whitman died. Mr. Whitman had sought help prior to the shootings, noting to several professionals that he was having strange thoughts (some about killing) that he had never had before.
clownfish
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 3:36 p.m.
You, and the NRA could be right, Sally. It may in fact be the free market and fewer government services that is to blame. But, if we go back 20 years, reality is there to greet us. According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, in 1993 there were 581,697 crimes involving guns with 17,048 fire arm murders, 2007 saw 385,178 crimes committed with guns and 11,512 murders with firearms. actually crimes committed with firearms have gone DOWN. In 1993 there was an attack in San Francisco, Gian Luigi Ferri's killed 8 and wounded 6. Colin Ferguson killed 6 people and wounded 19 before being subdued. In 1995 a guy blew up a federal building, killing hundreds. That facility was guarded by armed guards. I submit that going back 20 years shows that "this sort of thing" DID in fact happen.
K32
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 1:21 p.m.
Ann Arbor gun-fearing suburbanites might make themselves feel good by advocating gun control, but with over 300 million guns out there, it is an exercise in futility. Better to have armed guards who might be able to stop a murderous lunatic than simply waiting politely to be killed.
Engineer
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 1:32 a.m.
Plus disarming your citizens is the first step leaders like Adolf Hitler took to make his safe society. Not that great of an idea.
jcj
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 7:09 p.m.
clownfish How many of those calling for armed guards in the schools are doing tutoring? I am not suggesting I would be among those volunteering. And there is a difference between volunteering as a guard and volunteering to shoot people. By the way when MY children were in school I did LOTS of volunteering and spent many hours getting to know the students and teachers. I can only assume you are doing your part!
jns131
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 5:13 p.m.
NRA and Hunters. I kind of like this theory.
clownfish
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 4:10 p.m.
Interesting. Right now schools are ALWAYS seeking volunteers to do all sorts of things for students, and often cannot find people. But, apparently asking for armed people to show up to shoot at other people will gain slews of volunteers? I find that slightly disturbing. Maybe if you have time to show up as a guard you have the time to show up as a tutor? http://a2schools.org/aaps.partners/community_volunteers
jcj
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 1:55 p.m.
Basic Bob Be careful what you wish for. I don't think it would be that hard to get volunteers.
K32
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 1:52 p.m.
Basic Bob, count me in.
Basic Bob
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 1:29 p.m.
I think we should staff the school with NRA volunteers.
G-Man
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 1:14 p.m.
A lot less expense to train and arm the teachers and staff. We all knew the "armed guards" at the doors was a pipe dream.....
Steven Taylor
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 2:38 a.m.
scottie, while 18 year olds can purchase and own rifles, they cannot purchase nor carry a handgun until they are 21. and you are probably much to young to realize that Pioneer High School actually had a rifle team and a shooting range on the grounds of the school.. Do some research before you spout. As for a teacher being armed, why not give them an option. There are numerous reports of individuals (teachers or security) stopping an armed threat as opposed to upping the body count. Look up the Pearl, MS school incident back in 96-97. The shooter was stopped by the Vice Principal who went out to his car and retrieved his 45cal. handgun and holding the shooter at bay until police arrived. keep posting stuff that we grown ups can cut apart buddy.
zigziggityzoo
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 6:15 p.m.
18 year olds that are armed? What? There are no laws that let an 18 year old carry a firearm in a school. Period.
mgoscottie
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 5:36 p.m.
I don't want to be armed, I do not want to have to discipline 18 year olds that are armed, and I do not want my kids with an armed teacher.
Carole
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 1:12 p.m.
The recent shooting in the elementary school, without a doubt, if the more horrible than words can explain. The school administrators did everything right including keeping the doors locked, etc. The shooter broke a window and got in. What we can continue to do in the schools is to be alert to keeping the doors locks, being observant, have a plan should something develop, and pray that it never happens again. The other thing that should be looked at is the mental health system and having people be alert to those who need help -- in this last case, there should never been any guns in the home of this person.
Mike
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 11:20 p.m.
Carole - are you proposing removing windows from schools? You may be on to something. Also we could put body armor on all students and teachers and outlaw cars so he would have had to walk there and not risk an accident. More people are killed in accidents annually than the Vietnam War.
mgoscottie
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 5:36 p.m.
Since jns can find an implausible scenario no action should be taken ever....
jns131
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 5:11 p.m.
If you take a look at Pioneer High School for instance. All doors are locked except for a few. What most do is have an alarm that goes off and instantly tells the office that there is a problem. It is all well and good unless it is a squirrel that accidentally chewed thru the wiring causing a mass stand off. More cameras and more monitoring. Otherwise it won't be squirrels next time. It will be the nuts.
Riverman
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 1:31 p.m.
Very well stated.
Tom Todd
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 12:51 p.m.
When are the citizens of this once great country going to stand up and demand we put our nations interest at the for front and stop rebuilding and influencing decisions in other countries having military conflicts that do nothing but drain resources from our pocket books and our children's also. Are we really a third world country that only can shake it's fist or can we again be The brightest and best country in the world that real cares for it's citizens and can do everything at home to protect them.
mgoscottie
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 12:56 p.m.
When the current elderly become too senile to do anything I think you will see a shift where things get better, in the meantime normative rhetoric for everyone!
katmando
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 12:49 p.m.
Break resistance glass around the door would have work better. Unless you've had 100s of hours of urban combat training getting into a fire fight with a gunmen is your death sentence. And then what happens if the killer comes in with body armor? A hand gun isn't going to stop them, and don't tell me you'ld shoot them in the head. For one thing you will not know they are in body armor until after you shoot them there and then it will be to late. A head shoot is a 1,000 to 1 shot.
Rugeirn Drienborough
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 2:03 p.m.
Why is it that the good guys require hundreds of hours of training to survive, while the bad guys don't? What's magical about being the bad guy? The fact is that armed confrontations between law-abiding citizens and criminals occur regularly. Go to Google News and search on the phrase words "shooting" and "self-defense", or "armed intruder" or "homeowner shoots" and you'll have quite a variety of incidents to study. In most cases the good guys win.
Bcar
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 11:49 a.m.
OK then kat, so police aren't allowed in schools either then, because they sure don't get 100s of hours of urban combat training... And ever hear of a body armor drill? Its called two to the chest, one to the head... And what makes you think these killers have massive amounts of SEAL training? Yep, they don't, they're typically not good shots and don't know any tactics, they just shoot unarmed fish in a building.
Mike
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 11:17 p.m.
katmando - Did the gunman have 100's of hours of training also???????What happens if he shows up in a tank? what if he has hand grenades? what if, what if......... BTW if you shoot a guy in body armor he feels it a lot. Bottom line is we want the ability to protect ourselves. If you don't then don't buy a gun and stay out of the lives of the rest of us.
jcj
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 7:15 p.m.
mgoscottie I bet there are more than 20 families in Newtown that would like to have had the chance for armed teachers in the school!
Mick52
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 5:39 p.m.
Billy is right on, you get shot with a bullet in your armor, it hurts. I disagree though about a 9 mm it is a fine round and a .40 is not that much more bullet. Its not the size of the round its where you put it.
mgoscottie
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 5:34 p.m.
Adam Lanza also probably would not have had the easy gun access he did if the NRA did not exist. Not definitely, but I bet there are 26 families that would take that risk in retrospect.
Bogie
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 5:10 p.m.
Yes, Adam Lanza was a well trained sniper! LOL! He was an evil, disturbed punk, who would have been dropped easily, by a trained individual.
Billy
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 3:48 p.m.
Do you have any idea what it feels like to take a .40 in the chest while wearing body armor? Apparently you don't since you think body armor is some magical forcefield... Body armor doesn't make you invincible....unless the only thing being thrown at you are 9mm SMJ rounds....in fact it's because of the north hollywood shoot out that you won't find ANY cops with 9mm weapons anymore. Your idea that body armor makes someone invincible is just as ignorant as the idea that someone with a gun could magically stop a shooter JUST because they had a gun...
Craig Lounsbury
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 3:15 p.m.
"Unless you've had 100s of hours of urban combat training getting into a fire fight with a gunmen is your death sentence. ' One alternative is to get away from the notion of a police liaison and move toward the notion of former military people who have had combat training. Please don't think I am espousing that. I am just suggesting that argument has a logical "solution".
SonnyDog09
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 12:29 p.m.
I love the semantics. "Liaison Officers" are ok, but "Armed Guards" are not. What's the difference?
Bcar
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 11:46 a.m.
Really Hesh? How many cops do you know? Not all of them are that bright (some are!). What makes them different from a rent-a-cop? Oh, that would be just a bit more training... so why not train a rent-a-cop??? Any so now there is no training that could ever prepare anyone for a school shooting/chaos? Well next time a shooting happens, I guess the cops/SWAT will just have to wait outside until the shooter is out of ammo... yeah, that makes sense...
talker
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 10:41 p.m.
What is Wackenhut's charge per security guard? How many guards would be needed at each school and in each district? Without discussing how good a job they might do, the cost would be high.
Not from around here
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 6:29 p.m.
I'm sure Hesh can provide some statistics to support his wild innuendo, or maybe he should be removed from annarbor.com?
Bogie
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 4:51 p.m.
Well Hesh. The Fermi 2 nuclear plant is protected by "security guards." Heard of Wackenhut? Maybe it could work in schools?
Hesh Breakstone
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 4:42 p.m.
The difference is that rent-a-cops or more accurately security guards, now with guns... have a well known track record of not always being on the up and up. Cops know that often crimes are committed by security guards for what ever reasons of which I'm not going to speculate... So is it a good idea to take someone who works for very low wages, may not have ever been trained in how to discharge a firearm in a crowded building full of panicking kids (if such training could EVER be put together....) and rely on them to keep our kids safe? I think not and this entire notion of arming anyone in schools is very, very ill advised in my view... The nearest thing that we have ever had to trained folks who could do this job are sky marshals who DO receive training in taking out perps in a crowded airliner where one misplaced round either depressurizes the aircraft... or kills a frequent flier who may not live to get the frequent flier perks associated with the flight... If given the choice of arming people in schools or banning "weapons of mass destruction" which in my informed view... means assault style weapons, high-capacity mags, etc. I'm all for gun control. 20 little kids died, 6 very special adults too - if this is not enough for any reasonable person to reexamine their need for guns and more specifically certain sorts of guns the problem is not the loonies who do these school shootings - the problem is us.....
A2comments
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 12:19 p.m.
The NRA represents just over 1% of our citizens. We, the other 98.8%, need to drown them out. Large clips and assault weapons need to be banned. Background checks and registration for all private sales.
hail2thevict0r
Tue, Jan 15, 2013 : 6:59 p.m.
It's amazing how little people seem to know about the 2nd Amendment. It's not to protect one's right to hunt, Bob W, and there's no such thing as a 30 round clip A2comments. A clip puts rounds into a magazine. The 2nd Amendment is to allow one to have the right to protect themselves - from whatever is the threat. Our government, a foreign government or an intruder could all be seen as threats. If a gang of 5 people break into my house and I'm limited to a 7 round magazine, like the New York legislation just passed, I'm pretty much dead. If riots happen like they did in LA I sure as heck don't want to be stuck with just a bolt action hunting rifle. People act like the government is always there to protect us and the fact is, it isn't. There are many examples just in the last 20 years where the government broke down and left the people in a free for all (Katrina). It happens. There are reasonable gun control measures that should be taken (background checks for every sale) but banning a type of firearm will never solve the problem we're looking to solve. Having an armed guard is a similar type of band aid. I can tell you this, when we tried to stop drunk driving 20-30 years ago we didn't do it by banning sports cars.
Mitch
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 8:35 p.m.
LG capacity is not about hunting. And if you are not willing to defend your house from a voilent intruder. Leave me to what I think is necessary for my house.
Bcar
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 11:43 a.m.
ALL gun owners I know are ok with closing the gun-show loophole. And are also 100% ok with mental health records/checks, however if you want a target on that one, aim at the ACLU preventing all states from adding mental health records to the checks. And Gargoyle, grrreat comment! Love how "well, that's different..." yep, sure is...
Engineer
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 1:30 a.m.
A2 Comments you sound like you would really like another world leader who wanted to restrict guns to only those he approved. Perhaps you have heard of him, his name was Adolf Hitler.
Mike
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 11:12 p.m.
mgoscottie - can you just admit you're uncomfortable around guns and we can all move on with our lives? what kind of comment it that?
Mike
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 11:10 p.m.
A2 - you really don't understand the second amendment and why it was put in place to protect you and yours. I'll give you a clue: it has nothing to do with hunting.................that's because you have never lived under a tyranical government.............
Ricardo Queso
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 5:33 p.m.
"Status quote"? You shouldn't be allowed to vote.
mgoscottie
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 5:32 p.m.
What is the gay agenda? Also, can you just admit that you are uncomfortable around gays and we can all move on with our lives?
Gargoyle
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 5:19 p.m.
A2comments, your same argument about the NRA representing 1% of the population could be made about the Gay population. I'm betting you don't have a problem with them and their agenda.
Brad
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 2:57 p.m.
The majority of gun owners are "semi sane" and need to "put aside their paranoia"? Thanks for interjecting some "rationale" thinking.
GerryD
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 2:24 p.m.
Unfortunately, you'll never get a better suggestion/answer (other than vacuous things about more education and such). I've been engaged in this debate so many times and it always comes back to the utter impossibility of making a change because of the current status quote (even talk about future changes will elicit a comment about how long guns last, so it changes still won't have an impact). Rationale people don't seem to realize that when they start this "every option is beyond fatally flawed", they leave no room to find a solution and they themselves start looking like zealots. The semi-sane gun owners (which is the majority) would do themselves a huge favor if they put the extreme "dont take my guns" paranoia aside and engage in a real debate, accepting that the only answers are likely to be imperfect ones, but good ones none the less.
Bob W
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 1:45 p.m.
Sally, how about an alternative suggestion?
Silly Sally
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 1:25 p.m.
And what good would this do? There are so many millions of rifles and pistols in private hands now with detachable clips , plus several times that of clips, this is a very silly idea. An evil person would have no trouble getting one. Against the law? They don't obey the laws. Do you think that it is politically possible to take all of these legal guns away from their owners? You are dreaming. It is like stopping arsonists from burning down buildings with gasoline by banning gas cans, when anyone can siphon gas out of their car int a milk jug if they wanted to. Oh, so, so silly.
Bob W
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 1:05 p.m.
Actually, we need to ban "detachable " magazines and limit capacity to 10 rounds. If you're a hunter and can't hit your mark after 10 shots, you might want to consider taking up chess.
mgoscottie
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 11:58 a.m.
I don't see how paying someone minimum wage to shoot bad guys at elementary schools could possibly go wrong. Why does the NRA still exist? Why don't all of the normal hunter band together and form a new organization that doesn't come off as a bunch o rednecks?
Not from around here
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 7:36 p.m.
My expeerience with annarbor.com is that racist, exist and off topics comments are only deleted if they are against the wrong race, sex or political party. Annarbor.com constantly allows all republicans to be called tea bagger or idiotic and ignorant, all white people to be called racist and men to be vilified. Sad but true. I really miss having an honest local paper.
a2citizen
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 7:07 p.m.
@not from around here: I noticed the "white trash" remark and sent a note to the editors. However, the remark is still here. Since the comment brings up race it should be noted that that : -13% of the population makes up over 50% of the murderers. -13% of the population makes up over 25% of child molesters The statistics on gun ownership are remarkable in that ownership is spread across all ages, races, political, economic status, education status,... As long as people perpetuate this issue as partisan (rep vs dem), racial (black vs white),...nothing will ever get resolved. Race baiting, as proferred by mgoscottie, does little to bring people together to solve this problem. http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/race.cfm http://www.prevent-abuse-now.com/stats.htm http://www.statisticbrain.com/gun-ownership-statistics-demographics/
Not from around here
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 6:26 p.m.
Geez mgoscottie, nasty little racist remark there. I'm surprised it was allowed to stand! "white trash" ? If you had used a simular comment about any other race you wouldn't have been up here for a second!
jns131
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 5:08 p.m.
Trust you me, if a bunch of hunters were to patrol the schools no one would think twice about coming to a school with a loaded rifle to do what ever. The hunter has a goal and one goal only. So I hate to say it, I like the idea of hunters on patrol. Buck shot anyone?
GoNavy
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 4:05 p.m.
"Unions" of all sorts exist to protect minority interests against the predatory interests of others.
Jim H
Sun, Jan 13, 2013 : 2:06 p.m.
$150,000 per year doesn't sound like minimum wage.