Michigan education panel outlines school reforms at Pioneer High School event
Almost 300 people attended a forum about education policies and reforms at a Pioneer High School auditorium Monday.
Danielle Arndt | AnnArbor.com
People came from throughout the east side of the state to participate in a panel discussion on current education issues, reforms, financing proposals and possible legislation facing Michigan's charter schools and traditional districts.
The Washtenaw Alliance for Education, in conjunction with the State Board of Education and Ann Arbor Public Schools officials, coordinated the event.
The Michigan Board of Education has been traveling around the state convening such forums since early February to discuss the direction that education needs to take in the state as well as some reforms and ideas already in the air, said State Board President John Austin.
Austin, along with fellow State Board member Eileen Weiser, is an Ann Arbor native with children who have gone through AAPS or are currently enrolled. Austin also has high-schoolers at Ypsilanti New Tech this year.
Both state officials sat on Monday's panel in addition to David Arsen, a Michigan State University professor of education administration, and Peter Ruddell, an attorney and member of the Michigan education finance team that's working on rewriting the State School Aid Act — or drafting the Michigan Public Education Finance Act of 2013.
Republican Gov. Rick Snyder asked Ruddell and another Lansing lawyer, Richard McLellan of the Oxford Foundation, to head up an effort to draft school finance and choice recommendations to be considered this year. Ruddell and McLellan are co-authors of the proposed public act, which was introduced to the State Legislature in the fall during lame-duck session.
Ruddell also is a former student of Arsen's at MSU, although the two are at the opposite ends of the education reform debate, which led to some spirited conversation Monday.
AAPS school board trustee Glenn Nelson said the group involved in organizing the panel could not have been more pleased with the education leaders who agreed to participate. He said Austin, Weiser, Arsen and Ruddell represent the most diverse range of views involved in the education policy debate to date in Michigan.
Primary topics of the discussion were the implementation of the Michigan Public Education Finance Act of 2013, oversight and quality controls of proposed reforms and improving the quality of Michigan's teachers.
Ruddell and those carrying out Snyder's mission say fundamentally, what they are trying to do through the Public Education Finance Act is ensure the state's $14 billion annual investment in education produces citizens that are career ready.
The education finance act is best known as Snyder's "any time, any pace, any way, any place" plan that proposes students can take classes anywhere they want, with the state's per-pupil foundation allowance following the student from one educational institution to the next through a voucher system.
But Arsen said Monday the Public Education Finance Act was a draft and there has yet to be any revisions of it.
"It lacks coherence … and doesn't have practical provisions for implementing the unbundling (of per-pupil funds) or the voucher-based system," he said, adding it also ignores the fact that special needs students cost more to educate than general education students. "This needs to be recognized in the way the state distributes money. … School choice policies exacerbate the problem (and create) strong incentives to enroll low-cost students."
Arsen added the finance act was "not informed by an understanding of teaching and learning, but was an accounting exercise that does nothing to address school facility financing," leaving facilities to be funded almost entirely by local property taxes through millages. This creates big variations in what schools have the ability to prepare for and leads to dramatic differences in schools facilities across the state, Arsen said.
Ruddell said Arsen is correct that the legislation does not address funding for school facilities.
"Our charge was to take what the governor already said he wanted done and to put it into a bill," Ruddell said.
But he highlighted a few other items of the Public Education Finance Act, such as increased online learning opportunities and the early graduation scholarships.
"Why are we holding students back from graduating if they're ready?" Ruddell asked.
He said perhaps the best part of the legislation is it prevents students from being trapped in the district where they reside and gets rid of the concept of Count Day: "Why does it matter where a student is on the first Wednesday in October?"
He added economically disadvantaged students are involuntarily mobile and may switch districts frequently in a single year. This aspect of the legislation also is intended to hopefully further future innovation and student centered learning, Ruddell said.
Michigan Public Education Finance Act of 2013 was designed to operate in conjunction with House Bill 5923, which currently is stalled in the House Education Committee. This bill would permit virtually any company or public entity to become or to open a school with little oversight, Arsen said.
From left are panelists Eileen Weiser, David Arsen and Peter Ruddell.
Danielle Arndt | AnnArbor.com
Weiser said she recognizes how volatile charter schools are and that traditional public school district employees tend to view them as taking resources from their school districts.
"I don't know if most of you know this but only 5 percent of all the public schools in Michigan are charter schools," she said Monday. "... (The Michigan Department of Education) can close down authorizers and can close down charters and we have. We have no mechanism to close down public school districts. ... Until now, now we can send them to the EAA (the Education Achievement Authority)."
The EAA was unveiled in June 2011 as a way to redesign public education in some of Michigan's lowest performing school districts.
Education reform bills proposed in the fall would allow the EAA to take over all Michigan schools in the bottom 5 percent of schools academically. The bills also would have expanded the EAA's power and have permitted the entity to serve as an authorizer for charter schools anywhere in the state. However, the additional powers have now been stripped out of the legislation, Austin said Monday.
He added the state needs a "turnaround district," as the EAA has been dubbed, "when we fail miserably to help ... an academically struggling to succeed or to close it out and replace it. ... (The EAA) is a learning program that has a chance."
Austin said his biggest concern with House Bill 5923 is that it could create too many more bad schools than the state already has to deal with. He said making sure there are quality controls built in is crucial. He also said for-profit charter school authorizers that have been proven to run bad schools should be prevented from opening more charters.
But Weiser cited a recent Stanford University study that revealed charter school students in Michigan are showing more growth than their traditional school district peers. Weiser said education officials should see what's working for the charters and consider "cross-pollinating" teaching methods.
Arsen disagreed with Weiser's assessment, adding the Stanford study released in January is on top of a pile of numerous other studies that came up with different results. He added in low economic and urban areas, the percentage of charter schools is much greater than 5 percent. He said less than half of the children who live in the Detroit Public Schools attend the traditional district.
Arsen said the level of "turbulence" this causes in these areas is significant and more than half of children do not attend the same school from one year to the next. He said this is not the type of environment that fosters learning.
A Skyline High School junior shared her perspective Monday in lieu of asking a question like other audience members at the forum. She said the educational quality problems that schools in Michigan have are not due to schools not having nice buildings or enough technology or online courses.
"The problem in my eyes is inadequate teachers," she said. "… We need to fix the teachers who aren't good at their jobs. … Spending money buying new computers or making our schools more green or whatever, isn't going to make a kid want to come to class if their teacher isn't good at teaching. Spending money to help our teachers get better and be more engaging, that'll help with attendance as well. … Honestly, I think adding more technology to schools is a problem. Technology is a distraction."
Austin said he agreed with the student and earlier also expressed his concerns about pushing the door wide open to online education institutions.
In 2011, Snyder signed into law a new teacher tenure reform bill and created the Michigan Council for Educator Effectiveness to start developing a statewide teacher evaluation system that accounts for student growth. Several models currently are being piloted throughout the state. Lincoln Consolidated Schools was one of 14 pilot districts. However as of a February update from the MCEE, Lincoln was no longer able to continue in the study.
"Teacher quality is the thing that moves the needle on test scores. And that's where I hope we put more of our focus," Austin said.
Additional reading:
Danielle Arndt covers K-12 education for AnnArbor.com. Follow her on Twitter @DanielleArndt or email her at daniellearndt@annarbor.com.
Comments
Kathleen Kosobud
Wed, Mar 13, 2013 : 3:37 p.m.
The conversation on the AnnArbor.com site is pretty typical. Somehow, not having to sign your name brings out the worst in many people. I appreciated that some people actually signed their comments. The overhaul proposed for school finance, aka "Oxford Plan", is most prominently an inequitable plan. It assumes that all parents are equally capable of taking advantage of all choices. My biggest take-away from the panel was that none of them have first-hand experience with the fundamentally discriminatory consequences of the plan. People who have no cars have fewer choices. People with no access to technology have fewer choices. People whose children have special educational needs have fewer choices. Under the Oxford Plan, people whose children are considered "hard to teach" have fewer choices, since schools have the right of refusal to take these children. I harbor no illusions that this makes for educational equity--it further solidifies inequity based on ability, income and need. Kathleen Kosobud My comments (not said, but sent)
dotdash
Wed, Mar 13, 2013 : 3:44 p.m.
I agree with everything you say. I wish legislators would look at the probable outcomes of their policies, rather than just trying the first thing that comes to mind and pushing it through. Could we try with one district first, at least, rather than the whole state? I think the rush to do something -- anything -- is operating here. I also agree with you about people signing their names. I wish I had the guts, but some of the posters on AA.com are pretty hostile and I'm not sure I'm comfortable having my name out there.
Kathleen Kosobud
Wed, Mar 13, 2013 : 3:39 p.m.
I guess I don't know how to publish a link. Here's a second try at showing what I have sent to the Michigan Board of Education: (backburner-nkk.blogspot.com/2013/03/comments-to-michigan-board-of-ed-forum.html)
Eileen Weiser
Wed, Mar 13, 2013 : 12:16 a.m.
Regarding the Stanford CREDO study: as an anti-charter activist, David Arsen was anxious to lump the study in with previous studies on charters. I disagree. - the growth results were solid, and show why it's important to consider not just raw test scores but a child's starting point and their achievement gains. The state needs just this kind of analysis for every school, to help administrators and teachers evaluate whether they are helping all children reach their potential. Both David Arsen and I were one place off on the K-12 education dollars being spent in Michigan. Most of the national studies academics quote are for state revenue only, exclusive of local millages as few states have our system. My quote of 8th in spending was for all revenues and we're actually 9th; David's quote for state funding was 25th and Michigan's actually 23rd. I've found it never pays to debate an academic - they do research and lecturing for a living! From Chris Andrews, Bridge Magazine, Jan. 25, 2013: A U.S. Census Bureau report using 2010 figures had Michigan rated No. 9 nationally for school revenue from all sources (federal, state and local). In 2010, Michigan was spending $10,644 on a per-pupil basis, from all sources, -- $29 above the national average and ranking the state 23rd overall. Among Great Lakes states, Michigan's rate was second-lowest to Indiana ($9,611).
dotdash
Wed, Mar 13, 2013 : 2:55 p.m.
Hi Eileen - I hate to quibble, BUT I looked at the census report that the Bridge Magazine article was based on and that ranking of 9 is NOT a per-pupil figure but a total revenue figure. The states are ranked, therefore, roughly in order of population in that table. The right table to look at is the Table 11 of the report below, which shows that for per-pupil total spending, we are 24th (this includes federal, state, and local sources). http://www2.census.gov/govs/school/10f33pub.pdf I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt that maybe you didn't look carefully at where your data come from. But as you are a state Board of Ed member, I'm begging you to be more careful with the numbers you believe and that you throw around. Plus for your own knowledge, you should know where Michigan stands.
jns131
Tue, Mar 12, 2013 : 6:04 p.m.
Remove the mandatory 4 years of math required and give it to the brainiacs who need it for college. Otherwise, those that don't need it? Aren't having it forced down their throats. There is a lot you can do without this type of math. Now I am hearing in 2016 they are forcing the children to take a language. Now that really sucks. Glad I won't have children in the system after this. What they make these poor children is beyond me.
Basic Bob
Wed, Mar 13, 2013 : 4:08 p.m.
It would be a benefit for all Americans to learn to speak with their neighbors from Canada and Mexico. Other than in English, which most of them speak.
a2roots
Tue, Mar 12, 2013 : 4:31 p.m.
Funny a Skyline student is throwing teachers under the bus. I have been in Skyline numerous times since it has opened. I am in classrooms today, and have encountered some of the rudest and poorest behavior you can imagine. If the students spent as much time on their studies as they do listening to music, playing games and texting they might accomplish some things. There appears to be minimal if any accountability in Skyline.
a2roots
Tue, Mar 12, 2013 : 10:58 p.m.
@vor...I went through the Ann Arbor public schools as well as my children. You certainly give the student more credit than deserved. Many will throw a teacher under the bus because the teacher makes them work to hard or has expectations of the student. There are many that have a great desire to learn however there are just as many that could care less. The testing retake policy at Skyline is a joke. Behavior in Skyline is also awful which I believe is a reflection of the administration and lack of parental/guardian involvement.
A Voice of Reason
Tue, Mar 12, 2013 : 7:31 p.m.
Yep, lets blame the customer (student). Give these kids some credit...they know when they have a good teacher and learning. Do you have kids in the public schools?
Dog Guy
Tue, Mar 12, 2013 : 4:26 p.m.
A voucher system returns more control to students and parents. Resulting competition could inspire lazy teachers like me to work a bit if local school boards then sought increased performance rather than increased millage.
dotdash
Tue, Mar 12, 2013 : 4:12 p.m.
Can you please post a link to the actual proposed legislation? The link entitled Michigan Public Education Finance Act of 2013 goes to document dated July 2012 -- an invitation to participate in the process and rough description only. Panelists seemed to be referring to a draft of the actual legislation, so it would be great to get a copy of that out.
dotdash
Tue, Mar 12, 2013 : 10:38 p.m.
Thanks, that's helpful.
Danielle Arndt
Tue, Mar 12, 2013 : 5:15 p.m.
dotdash, try this site: http://pefaproject.wordpress.com/about/project-draft-bill/. The draft of the bill can be downloaded there, as well as a number of additional memos and appendixes.
Rob Pollard
Tue, Mar 12, 2013 : 3:22 p.m.
"Teacher quality is the thing that moves the needle on test scores." And the way to get more high-quality teachers is: - Pay them less salary - Reduce their benefits - Reduce their job protections - Increase their working hours - Evaluate them based on a regime for which the teacher has limited control over - Script more of their activities so they have less flexibility - Spend more time on tests driven by the state, some of which students could not care less about b/c it doesn't affect their grades, graduation or college standing. Unless the board has a detailed plan about how to get all these great teachers that are supposedly out there just waiting for their chance, and how they will treat teaching like a profession that competes for talent with other professions, this part of the equation is all just talk.
Basic Bob
Wed, Mar 13, 2013 : 4:06 p.m.
Actually, many of these things will improve education. The teachers who struggle to do their jobs will find other lines of work. The teachers who actually love their jobs will stay. The district will learn how to hire new teachers, evaluate them objectively, and process out the bad ones. Disney World pays relatively poorly, but still manages to attract top notch employees.
A Voice of Reason
Tue, Mar 12, 2013 : 7:30 p.m.
Yep, but only do these things for the bad ones. Oh, we can't because they are unionized and it is one for all even if they cannot teach! Do you have children in the public schools. 1/2 the teachers should be fired!!!!
Bcar
Tue, Mar 12, 2013 : 3 p.m.
Too bad people didnt open carry pistols to the meeting to bring that topic to light! its 100% legal with a CPL...
Mike
Tue, Mar 12, 2013 : 2:43 p.m.
The Skyline student hit the nail on the head...........she needs to understand that the schools are not set up to meet her needs but are set up to make sure the teachers are protected from evil administrators who would fire them for no reason. Just the fact that they are bad teachers and no students want to be in their class is not reason enough to let them go. Some people just aren't cut out to teach..............
Freight Train
Tue, Mar 12, 2013 : 4:57 p.m.
Mike, You live in a world that does not describe the reality that the rest of us are exposed to. See my comment above . . . The administrators are the evaluators and recommend teachers for tenure (well, when tenure existed). If you are unhappy with teachers perhaps you should learn more about the evaluation process. Bad teachers were subjected to a four year evaluation process. The only way they could slip through is due to shoddy evaluations. Well, I suppose they could have suddenly turned into bad teachers after they received tenure. I don't think so either. Time to study up!
Andrew
Tue, Mar 12, 2013 : 3:34 p.m.
Completely ignorant statement. These days teachers get a bad rap because students are unhappy. Tough crap, kids. You don't go to school to have fun. You get out what you put in. These kids are being taught at home that 'it is not their fault'. When I got in trouble at school, which was almost never, my parents NEVER defended me, and they shouldn't have. If I came home with a low grade, which, again, was almost never, my parents told me to work harder. I don't see that these days. Everything from behavior to low grades is the fault of the teacher, not the child. This is completely backwards.
dotdash
Tue, Mar 12, 2013 : 1:12 p.m.
I was at the meeting, and I was stunned by what a huge system change this was going to be. The bill 5923 would allow just about anyone to start a school -- a business or other entity -- and those schools would not have to take any student who applies (as public schools do now). The voucher bill ("unbundling") would allow students to take their taxpayer money to any new or old school. The winners will be new online schools who will suck money out of the system without doing the tough work of teaching. Kids will be tested constantly to prove they are learning so that the schools can claim the state money. That is a recipe for disaster. The longterm losers will be the poor and special ed. If you are left behind in a public school after all the "easy to educate" students have left and taken their money with them, that is going to be a tough place to be. Small things: I was surprised that Eileen Weiser didn't know (or pretended not to know) that Michigan is ranked 26th in per-pupil funding - she guessed maybe it was 8th. This from her seat on the State Board of Ed. Ouch. I was also surprised by the representative of the Governor's position, Peter Ruddell. He did not bother to address any of the central issues that others brought up, spending a few minutes talking about fluff details, but mostly trying to just get through the night without taking on the issues. The Governor should send a more capable representative.
dotdash
Wed, Mar 13, 2013 : 5:19 p.m.
Nice to get a response from you, too, Peter Ruddell. I was hoping that you would address some of Prof. Arsen's critiques head-on. I noticed that your written response to him was rather slap-dash and -- okay, no one put so much thought into it. If you went through his piece point by point and refuted or argued, then your piece and his could be printed side by side and it would be great for people who are trying to figure out where this will all lead. I'm sure the Washtenaw Alliance for Education (or AA.com or Bridge Magazine or many other media outlets) would be happy to print it. It would be a great public service.
Peter Ruddell
Wed, Mar 13, 2013 : 3:21 p.m.
dotdash - Happy to answer any question about the Michigan Public Education Finance Act. Many of the topics raised related to issues outside the scope of the Public Education Finance Act and were better addressed by others. I believe Amy Osinski and/or Christine Stead are coordinating questions.
dotdash
Wed, Mar 13, 2013 : 2:08 a.m.
Hi Eileen, Hey, thanks for replying! I could tell you felt uncomfortable, but my perception was that with a couple of exceptions, the crowd was really quite respectful. It may have felt different from up in front, of course. Here's a question about the new law: If this law passes, can I take my allocation to a religious ("non-public") school? I know I can remove my child from the district and contract for services with other districts, but does that also include private schools?
Eileen Weiser
Wed, Mar 13, 2013 : 12:30 a.m.
Hi dotdash - I've posted my response to your statistics question. Both David and I were basically correct on our rankings (I was closer than he was, but who can quibble with a talented orator in full bloom?): national studies rarely include local millages because they don't consider the total taxpayer burden in MI. It's hard to compare as few states have our system) I apologize that I couldn't respond earlier today; we had an SBE meeting in Lansing. From your participation, I know you'll keep the questions coming - thanks, Eileen Weiser PS - the audience booing when Peter and I spoke initially had a dampening effect on both of us - we'd never experienced it before anyplace, and we are seasoned speakers. Neither of us were trying to just get through the night. We were both trying to figure out what would engage our listeners enough to listen. 8:16 PM on 3/12/2013
dotdash
Tue, Mar 12, 2013 : 3:53 p.m.
DonBee - I've looked at a number of sites and always find Michigan below the median. Here's one for you on which Michigan ranks 31st. http://datacenter.kidscount.org/data/acrossstates/Rankings.aspx?ind=5199 That one is adjusted by regional cost. Here's one where we rank 27 (data from US Census): http://www.sacbee.com/2012/06/21/4579408/california-falls-to-35th-in-nation.html I think the differences may be due to where the money comes from. Our state ranks low in what they provide, no question about that. I think we rise in the rankings if you include local millages (like for building costs) and federal money (like school lunch).
DonBee
Tue, Mar 12, 2013 : 3:15 p.m.
dotdash - Which website are you looking at? I can find 4 rankings, one of which - which only counts state funding (not local or federal) shows Michigan 28. The US Census ranks Michigan 7th in total spending per pupil (it includes state, federal and local spending). The other two sites are between these two. The Census data is up through 2010, the other 3 are all 2009 data.
DonBee
Tue, Mar 12, 2013 : 12:44 p.m.
I am glad this happened, debate on this topic is healthy. I wish I could have been there, but the job pulled me out of town - as usual. I only disagree on one point in the article, that of the Junior at Skyline. If a teacher CAN'T teach, we should not spend time and effort teaching them to teach while they are still in the classroom with students, we should put a teacher in front of the room that CAN teach the students. Michigan turns out 10 teachers for every opening, I suspect that the vast majority of these teachers can teach, there is no logical reason to leave a teacher who can't in a classroom and disadvantage the students in the classroom.
Basic Bob
Tue, Mar 12, 2013 : 3:04 p.m.
I agree. Some good teachers never get the chance, while some bad teachers fail a whole generation of learners.
Tyrone Shoelaces
Tue, Mar 12, 2013 : 12:40 p.m.
I believe this was the Little Theater, not the auditorium. Sure, that's not very important, but as an alumni, I claim a right to be picky about such things.
cette
Tue, Mar 12, 2013 : 11:36 a.m.
Michigan's educational problems are ultimately are systems issues problems. Just throwing out the old system and hiring new untested and inexperienced educators and administrators is no panacea, especially when there is so much financial gain for the for profit companies, as it will be so tempting for that crowd to cut corners and cheat the consumers(kids, families and employees). What about the Deming model of improvement?
cette
Tue, Mar 12, 2013 : 3:11 p.m.
@Don Bee, honestly, those numbers should be as available as staff salaries are(were). It shouldn't be something special to obtain, it should just be "out there" for us all to take a look at regularly and easily. This isn't a one moment in time problem,(financial transparency) but this will likely be the defining problem with the for profit charter setup.
DonBee
Tue, Mar 12, 2013 : 1:02 p.m.
cette - I would love to see you do some research on what the profit margins are on the "for profit" companies. I think the numbers will be surprising to you, many of these "for profit" companies actually don't make much money nor do their executives. But do your own research cette, don't take my word for it.
Topher
Tue, Mar 12, 2013 : 11:15 a.m.
I was at the meeting last night. The BOE has said, for over a decade (the earliest document I've seen is 2002), that they believe in attracting and retaining quality teachers in Michigan, yet the actions say differently. As someone who considers himself a good teacher who has many other options in regard to work, why should I not move to another state that will provide me with 1) the tools and infrastructure to be successful in the classroom, 2) a full scholarship to complete the National Board Certification, 3) actual observations and feedback that will result in higher student achievement, and 4) a wage where I won't have to work a second job and can focus all of my evening hours on grading and planning.
Basic Bob
Tue, Mar 12, 2013 : 3:02 p.m.
The policies of the board and union focus strictly on retaining teachers. It is impossible to attract teachers without turnover. In the best possible situation, the worst teachers will be let go and replaced with unproven but possibly better teachers. And the best teachers will go on to lead and succeed wherever the best opportunities are, which might be in Ann Arbor, Detroit, North Carolina, or even another line of work.
antikvetch
Tue, Mar 12, 2013 : 11:51 a.m.
Are you willing to trade future pension benefits for increased pay now?
Stephen Lange Ranzini
Tue, Mar 12, 2013 : 11:07 a.m.
@JayJay: excellent points! Many of these kids are lost by third grade. You can see 21-23% failure rates on the 3rd grade MEAP scores even in Ann Arbor Public Schools. There are much higher failure rates that early in life ocurring in Ypsi and other area schools. As noted in the research discussed in Outliers, these children do better under a balanced calandra and do poorly when at home for long periods of time, like the traditional summer breaks.
Stephen Lange Ranzini
Tue, Mar 12, 2013 : 11:42 a.m.
Oops! "calendra" should of course read "calendar". Sorry!
jayjay
Tue, Mar 12, 2013 : 11:03 a.m.
A couple of questions -- 1. Of the 21-23% that are functional illiterates upon graduation, how many of them come from learning disabled households, that is, how many of the graduates from the time they were small either live through the hell of hunger or violence in the home? 2. How many of these 21-23% come from schools that are not safe, where vast amounts of energy are spent worrying about safely even getting to school or not being bullied or hurt in between classes, at lunch time, etc.? 3. How many of these functional illiterates were already on that path in 1st or 2nd grade because the people who make decisions on our schools have no real idea what these kids go through, that put emergency managers in cities like Benton Harbor and Detroit to cut, cut, cut without any understanding of what they are doing to the long-term health of the children? Let's answer some of these questions and understand what is behind the failure of our schools before we simply take the easy way out by blaming the schools and our teachers. If we do not wish to fund the future of our country through educating our children, there are plenty of Chinas and Indias and others certainly willing to take our place. We have only ourselves to blame.
Stephen Lange Ranzini
Tue, Mar 12, 2013 : 10:47 a.m.
The Skyline High School junior's comments were perceptive I thought. While I was privileged to have had many talented and awesome teachers, I suffered through quite a few classes growing up with awful teachers and totally sympathize with her perspective. Here is my question: how hard is it today in Michigan and in AAPS to fire a teacher who isn't effective? It used to be impossible. Has it changed or is it still impossible?
Freight Train
Tue, Mar 12, 2013 : 4:20 p.m.
The administrators are responsible for hiring and evaluating teachers. They had four years to observe teaching, look at lesson plans and offer criticism/walking papers before tenure decisions. If a poor teacher is retained, you know where to look for answers.
DonBee
Tue, Mar 12, 2013 : 12:59 p.m.
Mr Ranzini - The number of "fired" teachers in the state on an annual basis is still in single digits per year, according the state website. How many are negotiated departures with a good recommendation are unknown. WIth the number of teachers in the state the percentage of fired teachers is well under 0.01 percent.
Bulldog
Tue, Mar 12, 2013 : 10:32 a.m.
What about Michigan parents and families doing their part to help children succeed? Once again, the teacher is at fault. I am shocked to hear a Skyline Jr. being quoted as saying "it's the inadequate teachers". What about the administrators that evaluate these teachers? Why aren't we discussing their "test scores" which would be teacher evaluations they give?
DonBee
Tue, Mar 12, 2013 : 3:24 p.m.
Andrew - I am not and have not knocked teacher pay. I know it is hard work. BUT...salary is not all there is to teacher pay and I am tired of hearing people say that they are under paid and ignoring the rest of the pay package. Supply and Demand is not all there is, but in the non-union, non-tenured part of the working world, if there are 100 people applying for a job, then the pay for that job WILL fall compared to a job where there is 1 applicant for every 5 jobs. My use of the over supply of new teachers is to show that enough people think that the profession pays enough to make it worth getting the degree. I don't see anything wrong with that. If it did not pay enough, there would be far fewer graduates, wouldn't there? I doubt if teaching paid minimum wage and had no benefits that there would be enough graduates to fill the open positions.
Andrew
Tue, Mar 12, 2013 : 3:11 p.m.
DonBee- You have a lot of things wrong. Paying our teachers is not a matter of supply and demand. That's just ridiculous. Teachers should get paid for the job they do, not based on how many there are. I get sick of people trying to blame teachers for the state of education. While there may be a few less than desirable teachers out there, the vast majority are doing a fantastic job with declining resources, less parent involvement/support and ever-changing evaluations and assessments. Not to mention the cuts in pay that most teachers are facing, along with increased costs for advanced degrees (which they are required to pursue, but districts do not help pay for). The increase In pay for these advanced degrees does not cover the costs of tuition if you want to go through a decent university. Before we knock teachers, let's make sure we understand the hurdles that have been placed on the road, particularly by our current legislation.
DonBee
Tue, Mar 12, 2013 : 12:54 p.m.
jayjay - I would be interested in what you think is decent pay. Right now there is enough draw in the industry that we graduate 10 times the teachers there are spots for. Normally in the world of supply and demand, if the supply greatly exceeds the demand the prices fall. I am not arguing that the salaries should fall, only that a large number of people seem to think that teaching pays enough to make it worth getting the degree. Remember these facts about teaching in Michigan. 1) The teachers are consistently ranked as some of the best paid in the US by both the MEA and the AFT - the two major teacher's unions 2) They get defined benefit retirement that with a bit of planning can start as young as 47 and with less planning is easy to qualify for at 52 3) They get paid medical from retirement until they qualify for medicare 4) They have a negociated set of raises that take into account both the education and their time teaching 5) They can change schools (and districts) with no impact on their lifetime benefits 6) Once they have tenure they have a lock on their job until they retire, unless their are major layoffs, and then the layoffs are by seniority, newest are out the door first in almost every case. Show me another job that you can take with a 4 year degree to start that has these kinds of benefits and a top of the scale that reaches $100,000 a year in pay. College students seem to agree that the job pays enough - based on the number of people who sign up to be teachers. So tell me jayjay - how much is enough?
jayjay
Tue, Mar 12, 2013 : 11:06 a.m.
Maybe if we paid our teachers what they were really worth, we could attract the talent we need into the teaching profession. Isn't that the argument why we pay our CEOs such obscene amounts of money, perks and bonuses, supposedly to attract the best talent? Why are teachers any different?
Stephen Lange Ranzini
Tue, Mar 12, 2013 : 10:30 a.m.
I was at the event and didn't get called on to ask my questions, so thought that I'd post here what I wanted to ask the panel. It's the sad fact that 21-23% of our children graduate from the publlc school system as functional illiterates on average both nationally and locally. In the information age, this means those children are condemned to a life of poverty. This is perhaps the biggest social justice issue of our day. I don't have any answers but do have questions: 1. Why don't our kids go to school 9-5 when we know kids learn better with a later start and eliminate a lot of other problems too? 2. Why don't we use the "balanced calendar" as President Obama'a Secretary of Education Arne Duncan advocates and eliminate the traditional Summer break when we know it damages low and moderate income kids? A great description of the balanced calendar is at www.nayre.org/calendar_comparison.htm. 3. Why don't our younger kids especially K-5 get educated in age cohorts of not more than 4 months apart when we know that they are damaged by 12 month age cohorts, especially when this is encouraging parents to hold back 5 year olds until age 6? This applies equally to education and sports activities. For both John and Eileen I brought a gift copy of Malcolm Gladwell's #1 bestseller Outliers which discusses these issues in an eye opening way. It's a powerful and extremely well written book about why some children are successful and others are not and what we could do to improve that ratio. Eileen had already read it and John took a copy and said he'd read it. I encourage all of you to read it also if you haven't already. Perhaps if enough people do read it, we can make a difference and move a step closer towards solving these vexing social problems and make our children the best that they can be!
DonBee
Tue, Mar 12, 2013 : 12:45 p.m.
Thank you for posting your questions. I would have liked to have heard the answers.