DonBee

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 8:09 p.m.

newsmuse - If I recall correctly and someone with access to the paper version of AA.COM will be able to find the right number, the cost of the substitute lawsuit in legal fees was in the range of $1 million. I suspect this one could be as much or more, depending on who appeals where and when.

aamom

Fri, Aug 9, 2013 : 11:56 p.m.

Joel, due to Prop A we no longer have the ability to pass a local millage to pay for things we value as a community. We can only do that if the entire county agrees, which is unlikely to happen. It's easy to blame people drivig fancy cars etc, but that isn't the reason we have our problems.

Goober

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 6:17 p.m.

What used to be free and what is provided at other schools in our system, is now being moved to a fee based process. Just not right!

YpsiLivin

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 9:32 p.m.

I would suggest that the BOE is NOT going to drop the fee precisely because they want to test the legality of what they're doing. If the Court rules in their favor, every school district in the state will institute a fee for non-mandated classes. (It may even lead to pay-to-ride school transportation here in Michigan.) The reality is that the State pays only for the curriculum it mandates. It can't force the schools to offer a 7th hour option, and there's nothing in the law that prevents a public school asking for extra money to pay for extra service.

West Side Mom

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 6:46 p.m.

I not grasping why people keep characterizing 7th hour as a luxury. If a student only needs so many core credits to graduate, anything beyond those credits can be viewed as a "luxury". Are we talking about our high schools offering nothing but core credits? My recollection of the 7th hour fee discussion was that it was perceived as revenue source, not a cost-savings measure like the Middle School pools. If the cost of offering 7th hour can be calculated, it would be good to know what it is and how the cost/benefits of a public eduction at PiHi, Huron, Skyline and Community compare.

Jenjen0052

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 5:02 p.m.

Wow, Snoop, those are some pretty ignorant suggestions you make. I hope AAPS does drop the fee AND 7th hour entirely since, as Kris pointed out, it's a luxury!

Maria Huffman

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 4:31 p.m.

No, there's no guarantees for anybody. It's about the meaning of the words fee and of the word tax. It looks like we are going to need some clarity on this.

kris

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 12:59 p.m.

Hopefully, this will not go to court because the the BOE will decide to simply cut the 7th hour option entirely. It's an extra luxury.

Angry Moderate

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 3:07 p.m.

Did you control for demographic differences between the students in those countries?

aamom

Sat, Aug 10, 2013 : 12:06 a.m.

"how can we be sure that all the 7th hour classes are those non-core extra classes? There really is no way of doing that - I don't see how this will realistically work." They could charge if you take more than 6 hours, regardless of when the actual class took place. So for example, if the class you need only meets during the final 7th hour, you would just not take a 1st hour so that your total hours in class is 6. Not that hard.

Goober

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 12:58 p.m.

The AA BOE is inept, clueless, lost and arrogant too! They prove this each time they meet and open their mouths.

West Side Mom

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 2:24 p.m.

The ACLU is handling the suit. This is what they do. They take on cases that they believe will vindicate civil liberties like public eduction. The ACLU is paying the lawyers, not the plaintiffs.

DonBee

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 7:54 p.m.

NSider - Because of the number of required classes now (put in place in the last couple of years) many classes that offer graduation credit, don't count toward the REQUIRED classes for graduation. This is the major problem, the second major problem is if you move to Michigan as a 10th grader, you are behind the curve in math and foreign language requirements, because many other states don't require the same level Michigan does now. Blow one REQUIRED class and you have trouble making the 4 year sequence work in Math and English.

Life is good in Ann Arbor

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 2:35 p.m.

Students with 7th hour have parents who pay taxes too. I would guess that the families with students in 7th hour classes most likely pay, on average. higher over all taxes than families with students not choosing extra, time consuming and elevated learning opportunities. If you ran those numbers, I bet that is what you would find out. Students with 7th hour are not all on alternative career programs. You must not have a hardworking student in high school and so can't really understand what is going on there with the course requirements and complicated scheduling. You can't really..."get required courses out of the way" all at once. There are yearly requirements and scheduling conflicts. You don't really get it, but yet you comment so negatively as if children going to school are somehow intentionally trying to cheat the system.

DonBee

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 7:51 p.m.

worldchamp - Sorry, state law is about graduation credits, not sports or extra curricular activities. Sports do not = graduation credits. Nor does being in a typical school play (as opposed to drama class). Gym class = a graduation credit, football, not so much. By the way - the district is still handing the sports programs over $2 million dollars out of the general fund or about 20 times the revenue they want from the 7th class students.

ViSHa

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 12:29 p.m.

You really see NO difference? Zip? Zero?

NSider

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 1:39 p.m.

I don't understand your math. 5,300 HS students? AAHS was designed for 2500-3000, and that was before the additions. Now there are what, 3 or 4 High Schools, and they can't fit them in? Is it because of obesity?

TryingToBeObjective

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 5:35 a.m.

There's a bit of info missing, but I'd say, as written, it would be easy enough to cancel seventh hour with no penalty whatsoever. Works for me.

Angry Moderate

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 3:04 p.m.

"That reason is due to the very blatant & visible attack on public education by the Repubs and their Charter School Corporate Donors to destroy public schools under the guise of financial & insane accountability issues." Why on earth are you bloviating about "Repubs"? Your favorite president Obama is one of the biggest charter school supporters in the country.

TryingToBeObjective

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 5:32 a.m.

Students at Community are charged if they take a full seventh course. Fact check, somargie.

Somargie

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 3:33 a.m.

The problem with those multiple districts and a district ISD with its own Superintendent and administrators in every county in MI is the fault of the State of MI and every little town that feel they need to have a separate school district. A countywide or bi-countywide school system with a total elimination of those countywide ISD is long overdue. Unfortunately, the state repubs don't want to fix it..they just want to add to this "mess" by creating more charter schools for a corporate takeover of schools to make money off children and their warped view of curriculum.

DonBee

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 3:30 a.m.

Somargie - Riddle me this. In AAPS a classroom of 30 students - when you add up all the funding sources - generates $420,000 in revenue for the school district. The teacher in that classroom costs the district - salary, benefits, retirement, ext. - $104,000. So where does the other $316,000 go, even if you say, well it really takes 2 teachers to handle that class all day because of specials and planning time, etc. That is $208,000 of $420,000 - so where does the remaining $212,000 go? It is not a revenue problem, it is a spending problem. The BOE wants more money, so they are working a plan to inflict maximum pain on parents. They do this so the parents will come out in droves next spring and overwhelm the rest of Washtenaw County and AAPS get a new tax, even though much of the money that goes to WISD from the tax will never come back to AAPS. OBTW - that money is already promised, don't expect any enhancement from the enhancement millage.

Basic Bob

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 2:58 a.m.

The visible attack on public education is an inside job. Too many districts with too many administrators and too many buildings. They conquer by dividing. It is unrealistic for Michigan workers to pay more in taxes when they can hardly keep their homes.

DonBee

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 7:47 p.m.

Yeah, well tell that to the person who sent the bill because a student with 6 classes was in 7th hour. The intent is clear, the execution, not so much.

Chester Drawers

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 3:55 p.m.

Since you're paying attention, Andrew, please explain the inequity in ability to earn credits between Skyline students and Huron/Pioneer students????

TryingToBeObjective

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 5:30 a.m.

Unfortunately, many people can't count or read. It's clear to some of us, at least, that taking A seventh class is differ than taking a class seventh hour. And of course, some parents can't be bothered to look into online courses. You have to do it all for them.

Maria Huffman

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 2:48 a.m.

The problem with the fee is that Board now has assumed the role of setting the conditions to when to collect a "tax" to attend public school classes and of collecting it.

kelz

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 4:38 p.m.

I don't get it either...why does closing Community ALWAYS make it in these threads! Leave Community alone. CHS c/o 1997 :-)

ViSHa

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 12:34 p.m.

I definitely see a correlation regarding those ranting the loudest on this thread against the worthiness of this lawsuit and those ranting the loudest anytime the "sell Community" idea gets bandied about! NIMBY within AAPS is alive and well.

DonBee

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 10:49 p.m.

Mr Sullivan 4 years times 5 classes = 20 State required classes now = 22 I would like to see you make it fit. A high school student with a 6 hours school day will be able to pick a total of 2 electives over four years or 0.5 electives per year. If they are smart they will save them for the senior year, so they can have time to retake a class if they need to.

kelz

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 4:37 p.m.

Keep in mind, that demand for classes determines what is offered. If you take something like band, orchestra, choir or a foreign language, you can't take those one semester and not not take them another semester. Those classes are usually on going and cumulative to be successful. Also, students are thinking about applying to college. For instance, even though you only need 3 years of science if you intend to apply to college in this field of study your counselor will tell you you should take it for 4 years so that you have that relevancy to the colleges you apply. When you add that in with the requirements a 7th hour may come into play.

NSider

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 11:34 a.m.

The system was fair when school ended at 8th grade. The Amish have that part right.

UM15

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 7:28 a.m.

Reconsider what you're saying.... 82.5 per semester = 165 per school year 61 per trimester = 183 per school year Thats how they end up with more credits. 3 trimesters in the time of 2 semesters allows for more classes to be taken resulting in more credits. I'm not sure if the classes are set up the same way, but I had a trimester schedule in high school and we would cover a semesters worth of material in one trimester. Therefore a class that would take a full year in a semester schedule would be done in 2 trimesters leaving room for additional classes to be taken and allowing more freedom in courses I could take. In one school year my school took 15 classes (5 per trimester) in the time a semester school took 12 classes ( 6 per semester) all while covering the same amount of material. More classes= more credits.

J. A. Pieper

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 3:53 p.m.

Now I can tell why you support a certain local person for superintendent, just by your writing.

Angry Moderate

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 2:58 p.m.

Somargie, why don't you post the name of a teacher who was paid less last year than the year before? Oh you can't? That's what I thought.

ViSHa

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 12:38 p.m.

DonBee, it's futile to get in the way of a good "Slick Rick", "Faux New", "Teapublikan" rant. It's comparable to Godwin's Law, no need to go further...

DonBee

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 3:21 a.m.

Somargie - Teachers have a table in their contract called a step table. That table lists increases in pay for one of two reasons (the table both goes up and out and a teacher can move in both directions in a year). The up is for years of service, the raise is automatic, if you stay a year you move up. As you move up you get more money (aka a raise). If you get additional education you move out on the table and get more money (aka a raise). While the union agreed to a 3% cut - the step table did not go away and teachers who were not in the upper right hand corner of the table all saw a pay increase because the steps are larger than the cut was in almost every case. Teachers who did not add education (e.g. a Masters) and were at the top of the L2 step (yes there are 2 steps beyond the typical school district in Michigan - L1 and L2) - saw a pay cut. So, everyone in this sub-thread is right, it just depends on how you look at it and where you are in your career whether the 3 percent reduction was a smaller raise, or it was a pay cut. The district acknowledged this in the budget by showing that they needed an additional 2.7 million dollars over and above 2012-13 for teacher compensation. If they need more money, it kind of confirms that someone is getting more money, since there will be 34 or more fewer teachers next year. Sorry for the long post but reality is sometimes not short and neat.

Somargie

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 3:02 a.m.

Comment by Basic Bob, Angry Moderate highlights not only the lack of commonsense and facts but vitriol of a profession they know nothing of except what has been spoonfed by not only by the State's Repubs but Faux News, World Net, Charter School CEOs, and Tea Party misinformation.

Somargie

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 2:58 a.m.

Wow....your comments are so blatantly wrong on many points, that I sincerely doubt the representation you espoused. Here are your stark mistakes: 1. The State of MI did reduce AAPS funding along with most school districts in the state except for the charter schools and that district they took over in Detroit. In which that CEO (yes, CEO) and its administrators make an insane amount of money; 2. Teachers, principals, and the district office personnel have taken a paycut. 3. No one is getting a raise...except maybe that new superintendent. Finally, I suggest a call to your state rep for a fact check and more modesty is your apparent hate & vitriol of public education and teachers.

Angry Moderate

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 2:26 a.m.

Taxpayers who aren't union government employees who get Cadillac benefits, months off from work, and can basically never be fired haven't been getting raises lately, either--so what's your point? (Time to trot out the old canard about making "lesson plans" in the summer--when most teachers reuse the exact same lesson plans year after year).

Susie Q

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 2:05 a.m.

Teachers have taken cuts in the past and are getting a 3% pay cut for next year AND AAPS has had reduced funding from the state. AAPS used to get (2007 or so) $9700 per student and now receive about $9000 per student. Teachers who are at the top of the salary schedule have not had an increase in pay since 2007-2008.

Angry Moderate

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 1:43 a.m.

A smaller raise is not a pay cut. And in the next negotiations, they will ask for an extra raise to make up for the "cuts."

Basic Bob

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 1:31 a.m.

Both right. Teachers at the top of the pay scale took a temporary cut. Step increases are raises.

Wondering

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 1:28 a.m.

Teachers are taking a 3% cut, not a 3% raise.

The Infinite Jester

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 2:07 a.m.

I'd assume the ACLU is paying for it

TryingToBeObjective

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 12:48 a.m.

Students who take a seventh class will be charged, not during seventh hour. Skyline had to cut additional $300,000 from their individual budget in order to still have trimesters. Other schools did not ave to make this cut.

TryingToBeObjective

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 2:16 a.m.

Barbs mom, both seven course hours, and summer school are optional extras that allow scheduling flexibility. The difference is that one as been free. They should have charged for the extra seventh hour years ago, then perhaps the district would not be cutting busses and other NEEDED programs. No more freebees.

cm

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 12:21 a.m.

They are both outside the school day of what the school is required to offer, so not all that different.

Barb's Mom

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 12:07 a.m.

Cm, taking a class in the summer is summer school and that is totally different.

DonBee

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 7:46 p.m.

TTOB - 7th hour is not going away. The costs are still there. What is going away is a free 7th class. At Skyline you can get 7.5 credits per year or 30 in 4 years At Community 7 (and if you work the system 8) or 28 credits in 4 years At Pioneer and Huron now you can only get 6 or 24 Since most of the low income students are stuck at Pioneer and Huron (based on free lunch percentages) - I would not be surprised if this turns Federal at some point. Drop the fee, sort it out and try again next year, rather than do a last minute change like this based on an "opinion" By the time school starts this will have eaten the $100,000 in revenue. Cheap out and put it off until it can be sorted outside of court.

TryingToBeObjective

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 5:25 a.m.

Seventh hour costs the district more $, so yep, it affects everyone. The numbers are for comparison. I know many who do not take seven classes, and still achieve all of the qualities you mention. Do you REALLY think the instructs reputation for quality is due to seventh hour alone? Teachers, principals, a revolving superintendent door, and an inept BOE factor in as well. If thy can afford Greenhills, I'd say see ya. Smaller class sizes for the kids who stay.

Angry Moderate

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 2:23 a.m.

TryingToBeObjective - it's fair because the students who choose to take a 7th hour are largely those who earn top test scores, pass AP exams, lead extracurricular activities, and go on to elite colleges. If you get rid of the things that attract them to AAPS, they can and will go to Greenhills or WISD's International Baccalaureate program or move to Saline/Plymouth-Canton/Chelsea. Then, the district's reputation for quality will suffer and everyone will be worse off. Also, why are you comparing the number of 7th hour students to the number of students in all of th AAPS? 7th hour does not affect kindergarten class sizes.

TryingToBeObjective

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 12:53 a.m.

Seventh hour has more than a financial impact. The 20% of the district that takes an EXTRA class causes increased class sizes and a higher student teacher ratio impacting the 80% of the district that can figure out how to schedule six classes and graduate. That means that the WANTS of 3200 kids impact the NEEDS of 12,680 kids. How is that fair?

Angry Moderate

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 12:34 a.m.

It's not an either/or. They are millions of dollars short and need to do both.

NSider

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 11:38 a.m.

The desks and chairs probably once sat in a classroom with asbestos and no one knows how to use a sponge and water to wash them off.

Somargie

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 3:09 a.m.

What!! AAPS classrooms are crammed with old furniture and have had to glue, tape, trade, tied-up, prop-up whatever they have or do without. Many times, classes don't even have desks for their overcrowded classrooms. Whatever you saw..was probably trash that couldn't be glued, taped, traded, tied or proped up or unsafe for students. Therefore, don't make assumption in which you have absolutely no knowledge about. Next time, I suggest going to that dumpster and checking out the "discarded desks/chairs or simply talk about something you know.

Angry Moderate

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 12:17 a.m.

Clearly, there was a desk and chair gap. Tappan had to trash their nice furniture to create equality with poor schools.

KMHall

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 12:15 a.m.

The students who play sports seem to be well considered. Even though they pay to play, those fees don't cover the expenses.

towncryer

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 2:52 a.m.

Another "ego" indeed...just from reading these comments.

TryingToBeObjective

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 12:54 a.m.

Who? Sarcasm intended. We don't need another ego in AA.

TryingToBeObjective

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 5:48 a.m.

Study algebra the first time and graduate. Per Andy Thomas, credit recovery is not charged the $100.

TryingToBeObjective

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 12:55 a.m.

Can't wait to see where they go to college. Will Mommy and Daddy sue the college when they don't get the classes they want? Boo hoo.

DonBee

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 12:44 a.m.

...Fail algebra and not graduate.

Usual Suspect

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 3:23 p.m.

"150 nonsensical comments/replies" And there's another one!

Basic Bob

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 1:41 a.m.

Huh?

TryingToBeObjective

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 5:19 a.m.

7th hour is a DISTRICT issue, as the ENTIRE DISTRICT pays for 20% of the district taking seven classes, primarily Pioneer and Huron, but CHS kids could also take seven if they pay for it. 80% of the district takes six or fewer classes.

Somargie

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 3:57 a.m.

What you pay for the summer is called choice. Check out the facts about public education and stop blaming the parents.

West Side Mom

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 2:40 a.m.

If 7th hour is a PiHi/Huron issue, 20% are not impacting 80% of the district. Maybe 20% impacting PiHi and Huron?

TryingToBeObjective

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 2:12 a.m.

1. Any kid can go to Skyline, and always could apply. 2. Skyline had to cut an extra $300K from their budget, that Pioneer and Huron did not. Cut $300K from them and then cry about it. 3. It's not fair that 20% of the district monopolizes teacher resources by increasing class sizes for the other 80% of the district.

Goober

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 10:32 p.m.

Why do we have schools in the same system using different schedules? This is just not right! I went to Skyline and got 30 credits. You went to Pioneer and only got 24 credits. This is just not right!

TryingToBeObjective

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 5:17 a.m.

The moral to the story us, it's your problem if your kid "blows his algebra class." Pay for summer school, or study harder and do the work the first time. Why should everyone else pay for laziness?

Somargie

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 4 a.m.

Your comment is moot and outdated because it doesn't reflect the changes of State required graduation credits. In addition, viewing the needs, circumstances and needs of today's HS children within the time frame of long ago then criticizing the students or parents is just unfair.

DonBee

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 12:43 a.m.

Cossur - Your son graduated BEFORE the new graduation requirements. The number of required classes is now much higher (it used to be roughly 6 credits you had to take, now it is closer to 16 required (core) classes and 22 credits overall in 4 years). 1 band class a year would still qualify, but that would be the end of electives for your son now. The rest of the classes would be required classes - including 4 years of math and 2 of foreign language, and... Blow 1 class in 9th grade and you either need to do summer school, an online class or use 1 of the 2 openings you have in your 4 years in high school that are not required to graduate to fix the problem. Do this as a Junior, having burned you 2 electives previously and you are really, really stuck. Seventh hour is full of students, who could not pass Algebra the first time and need to retake it. Then add that the number of sections of the math classes offered in the first 6 hours have fewer seats than are needed to get the 4 required math classes. So some math has to be taken in 7th hour under the current schedules at Pioneer and Huron... ...or we can take 33 student classes and make them 40 student classes and that will really help the students who are struggling.

Chester Drawers

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 3:10 p.m.

Sort of off topic, but a big bone of contention for me, is the fact that AAPS runs summer school for all of the surrounding districts, too. Out-of-district students do pay more, but only a small amount more. The tuition should be at least 3 times more for non AAPS kids (just like at the state universities). I would love to see a financial statement for summer school!

Angry Moderate

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 12:16 a.m.

So aaparent, where is the evidence that A2 doesn't have as many summer or online classes as other districts? Besides, students who fail must pay like $300 for summer school. They should be happy that 7th hours are massively subsidized to only $100.

TryingToBeObjective

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 11:58 p.m.

Aaparent, online courses are available year round. There are no scheduling excuses, just those who won't take the time to seek options. If an online course is taken during the school year as one of six classes, it's free. If its # seven, it costs extra.

aaparent

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 11:14 p.m.

@AngryModerate- not as I understand it. The menu selection for Michigan Virtual High school is the same across the state, but AAPS has to pick which course material to fund and that is based on a number of factors including enrollments. Theoretically, if 7th hour kids need a class for graduation and don't pay and it is available through virtual high school in the summer as an add-on, then that is more $$ for AAPS. I think there should be more transparency regarding online classes, fees for 7th hour and fees for academic options. I think there should be transparency regarding all the options some kids with Tiger parents can arrange allowing kids to take classes at the college level. Tiger parents who ask for this can get this to happen, but from what I know, this isn't offered up in general to all kids because it would involve a lot more work on the part of school employees who are already way overtaxed.

Angry Moderate

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 10:14 p.m.

AAPS offers far more extensive summer school options than nearly all other districts in the state. Online classes are run by the Michigan Virtual High School. They're exactly the same throughout the state.

Somargie

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 4:01 a.m.

Did you also walk 10 miles to school. Update yourself on the new graduation requirements because criticizing.

thecompound

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 11:41 a.m.

^^You have been the only bully I've seen on this comment thread. Ridiculing anyone who doesn't emulate your apparent perfect parenting style!!??!! My goodness, do you actually go back and read your comments? Some humility can go a long way...

TryingToBeObjective

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 5:13 a.m.

Sure, lets let the whining bullies have their way, and set the tone for the future. Next year they can cut HS bussing, without any "constitutional conflict". That's okay, as long as those who want seven classes get their way.

West Side Mom

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 1:43 a.m.

Dropping 7th hour at this point would probably create chaos at Huron and Pioneer. DonBee is right. The BOE should drop the change (which it sounds like they have figured out how to administer yet), take $100K out of the Balas black hole budget, and save the district the legal fees. This case won't end in Washtenaw County Circuit Court. It presents a constitutional issue that will likely go all the way to the Michigan Supreme Court. We are in this for years to come.

TryingToBeObjective

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 1:02 a.m.

Or the BOE could drop seventh hour, then there is no suit. The parents who sued don't care about the 80% of the district that is impacted by increased class sizes due to the 20% who have to have their every want. Let the parents pay the AAPS legal costs when they lose the suit.

DonBee

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 12:35 a.m.

M.Haney - The situation with the substitute teachers several years ago was justified on the same point - "we had a legal opinion that it was the right thing to do" - millions of dollars later, they found out the opinion was wrong. There have been several other situations in the last decade where the board had a legal opinion and then ended up on the losing side. An opinion is just that, it is an opinion, the lawsuit will decide if the opinion is valid or not, that is what court is for. Unfortunately this one is on a HUGE principal and the ACLU will not be satisfied until they run out all the appeals. The board would be smart at the next meeting to drop the fee, then the suit is moot, the $100,000 in lost revenue is much less than the court costs.

CLX

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 11:28 p.m.

Well, and I also have to question whether they have any idea of its legality considering their substitute teacher legal debacle of not so long ago.

Angry Moderate

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 10:12 p.m.

Funny how 80% of AAPS students, and 100% of students in most other districts, manage to survive without a 7th class.

KMHall

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 12:05 a.m.

When you say "get on board..." just don't claim that the playing field is level.

Basic Bob

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 9:53 p.m.

Hate to say it, the people making these decisions are Democrats.

Solitude

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 10:58 p.m.

Not for long. If this school board continues the way it has, with the constant conflict and controversy, and the constant uncertainty about what to expect from year to year regarding class sizes, programs available, etc., the school system will push more and more parents into private and charter schools, and the death spiral will accelerate.

Chester Drawers

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 2:59 p.m.

$30 million, if my memory is correct.

West Side Mom

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 1:46 a.m.

The district was confident about the substitute teacher lawsuit too. That one didn't work out so well for us. It cost the district millions and millions of dollars in settlements and made the plaintiff's attorney are very rich man.

Angry Moderate

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 12:42 a.m.

You can't stop people from suing you. If doctors only did things when they knew they couldn't get sued, there would be no surgeries.

KMHall

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 12:09 a.m.

Perhaps it is not arrogance, but simply a fact. They knew they would be sued even with it being totally legal and so I'm sure those bases are covered. The ACLU, however, is creative.

J. A. Pieper

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 11:52 p.m.

But I am sure that she has adopted the AAPS and BOE arrogance!

Solitude

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 10:55 p.m.

...Nor will she have to pay for the board's arrogance with her own money.

Basic Bob

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 9:52 p.m.

I'm sure she's not worried. She doesn't make the decision, nor will she lose her job if it is the wrong one.

Chester Drawers

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 2:26 p.m.

PLEASE quit posting misinformation. It is NOT POSSIBLE to graduate if you take only 5 classes per day. 5 credits X 4 years = 20 credits. The AAPS graduation requirement is 22 credits. VERY SCARY that a parent of high school students doesn't know this. Hope you have a good guidance counselor!

Chester Drawers

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 2:13 p.m.

Starting with the Class of 2016, the state requires 2 credits (4 semesters or trimesters) of foreign language for graduation.

TryingToBeObjective

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 2:06 a.m.

My kid is a stellar student, without a seventh hour, which if he needed, I would pay for. Even though it would be a financial stretch. 80% of the district can "better themselves" without taking seven classes a semester. They are not "defective." $100 is cheap. I paid $225 for EXTRA summer school classes, to enable my kid to fit what he WANTED in his schedule. If parents plan poorly, fitting electives into the schedule before academics, they have only themselves to blame. The district as been making cuts for years, so anyone who is surprised is uninformed. My kid s a senior- he needed TWO credits this year- math, as a senior, and English. He's going to have a great senior year without the pressure of cramming a schedule of needed academics in due to procrastination. He has a well rounded schedule, with depth, and breadth.

SilentScream

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 12:24 a.m.

For the record, it's $100 per student per SEMESTER. I will pay $400 for both of my kids to take 7 hours this year. I'm not complaining, because I am fortunate enough to be able to do so. I worry about the other kids who want to better themselves but may not be able to afford this. My sophomore has to have more credits than my senior, but I am not sure right now by how many. The kids who took electives and now must cram in required classes and pay for them are probably going to be adversely affetced.

KMHall

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 12:20 a.m.

Solitude More colleges are waiving the foreign language requirements. The areas in which foreign kids are beating us is in math and science.

Solitude

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 10:53 p.m.

The idea that a foreign language is some non-essential extra and not key to a decent high-school education is laughable, especially in a world where just about every kid in every developed country, and many undeveloped ones, speaks at least two or three, including their native language, sometimes several dialects, plus French or Spanish, depending on where you are in the world, and often English. Just because you can afford to pay extra doesn't mean you should have to.

PhillyCheeseSteak

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 1:53 p.m.

Teachers at Community H.S. have the lowest teaching load of all the high schools, based on the total number of minutes per week spent teaching.

aaparent

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 11:21 p.m.

There is a whole lot more transparency needed to truly explain to the public what is going on over at Skyline with credit hours, mastery grading and the trimesters. I think many staff members know more than they can say without fear of repercussion. If the new superintendent can make some progress in ethics and honesty with equal credit hours = equal work and equal teacher rate of pay = number of hours worked (meaning a some Skyline teachers have a shorter work day in total minutes when all is said and done, but get the same pay rate, compared to teachers at a similar step scale at Huron and Pioneer.) I believe part of the general master plan not disclosed to the public, but hinted at in a lot of ways by BOE members, involves creating more virtual high school options ($$$-paid by taxpayers who want the extra good stuff AAPS has been known for but district can no longer provide) and the quality of an AAPS education will go down. What I expect is something like more and more surprises if there are redistricting plans floated that will involve curriculum changes and options that will be unclear to parents and students, but only teachers who have been around for years will fully understand how much is going to be cut out of the center of the core curriculum.

Basic Bob

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 9:51 p.m.

They had a seventh hour before Skyline opened. Somehow Skyline gives more credits in less hours. That's the only way to explain it.

John

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 9:27 p.m.

All of this makes it sound like 7th hour was a band-aid meant to band-aid other, deeper, structural issues with the way Pioneer and Huron's schedules may have been run. Why start a lawsuit to defend the band-aid when the real issues will go unfixed?

aaparent

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 9:22 p.m.

I meant to say how many students and teachers are impacted by this. What classes are offered 7th hour at Huron and Pioneer and like @MMM said, how many students enrolled and what is the demographic breakdown?

barefootdave

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 8:52 p.m.

Short sighted seems to be a recurring comment when it comes to AA BOE.

kelz

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 4:25 p.m.

My daughter is a music student...She is in the Symphony band, orchestra and in choir. She is also a Community High student that split enrolls at Pioneer so she could continue to take her music classes since these are not available at CHS.

Goober

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 9:56 p.m.

Watch it! I'm one of those - a sixties hippy. I do bathe, though.

TryingToBeObjective

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 1:56 a.m.

They aren't favoring Skyline. Skyline had to cut an extra $300,000 from the budget in order to keep trimesters that the other schools didn't have to. Perhaps they should go to trimesters at Huron and Pioneer, and shut everyone up? Oh, and cut $300K for each of them, just to make it fair.

EyeHeartA2

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 11:09 p.m.

You think they are that swift, huh?

PhillyCheeseSteak

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 2:08 p.m.

There are very few vocational classes remaining at the 3 comprehensive high schools these days. For example, the wing at Pioneer that previously has been used for vocational classes now house only a few vocational classrooms, they are primarily used for academic classrooms and offices for the Rec & Ed program. The BOE and administration have determined that ALL students at Pioneer, Huron, and Skyline should go on to college.

Susie Q

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 2 a.m.

I am sure no other school district in this area has a 7th hr.

mars

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 9:06 p.m.

I went to Huron not that long ago, and I easily graduated (and got into a highly selective college as well) without ever taking a 7th hour class.

TryingToBeObjective

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 11:50 p.m.

It is possible. The non-entitled 80% of the district easily graduates with 6 classes.

Angry Moderate

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 8:32 p.m.

You can already graduate with only 6 hours. Most students don't take a 7th period.

TryingToBeObjective

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 1:53 a.m.

Summer school is an opportunity for flexibility, as is seventh hour. Both should have fees, or neither should have fees. Summer school is not just an opportunity for catch up. Seventh hour could have the same argument. I guess if kids do the work the first time, or go to Skyline to "master" it, they won't have to "catch up".

John

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 9:13 p.m.

Quit raining on the A2 back-patting parade. They hate that.

DonBee

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 9:01 p.m.

Mr. Kett - Not true. The schools are required to provide the 22 credits required for graduation and a set number of hours of instruction per year at the high school level. The state law used to dictate the number of days and it was switched to hours under Governor Granholm, so no longer are we a 187 days of school state. The schools then have the freedom to divide the hours as they choose (Pioneer/Huron, Skyline, Community all do it differently). There is no legal mandated CAP, only a legal mandated minimum. The issue here will turn on the inequality between the schools in the district, as well as the pay for credit issues. Summer school is different because it is an opportunity to "catch up" after failing a class, unlike 7th hour, which was a first opportunity to take a class. Second chances don't have to be free. The key is can you get your legally mandated 22 credits in the school day? If you can then the easy answer is to only offer non-credit classes in 7th hour, lawsuit is no longer valid, and charging is fine. If you can't then there are issues under the law.

Chester Drawers

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 2:05 p.m.

Don, I've come to the unhappy conclusion that about 20% of the posters on this site don't read the articles at all!

Ann Arbor Parents For Students

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 9:01 p.m.

Trying to get their kids into elite schools by taking on a cause like this! Parents will stop at nothing.

DonBee

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 8:56 p.m.

bearsRbears - Helllooo! Read the story carefully - this has been filed on behalf of these students as a test case, the ACLU is covering the costs here. This is not just about AAPS, it is a test case. The results will apply in the whole state, and if it appealed enough, maybe nationally. WARNING: Test cases are expensive. The ALCU has deep pockets, AAPS, not so deep. WARNING: There may be more test cases coming based on decisions the district has made.

Scott Kett

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 7:44 p.m.

Not if the ACLU is filing the case.

Barb

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 7:44 p.m.

Hi!!!! I think you're missing the point.

RuralMom

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 7:41 p.m.

LOL! Very convenient of them now isn't it? Its all about priorities, not sure how they arrived at theirs.

YpsiLivin

Fri, Aug 9, 2013 : 8:34 p.m.

DonBee, The reality is that a teacher who is teaching one class per day isn't making $104,000 per year. The reality is that a high school student who is taking six classes per day is probably coming in contact with six different teachers. The reality is that an elementary student is coming into contact with his/her homeroom teacher for core subjects, but also has contact with the music teacher, the physical education teacher, the art teacher, the librarian/media specialist, and quite possibly a foreign language teacher and reading and math intervention personnel. The reality is that high school education is more expensive than elementary education is. The reality is that the cost of public education involves more than the cost of the teacher. You seem to have an axe to grind about the AAPS athletics program. As taxpayers, we never really have the final say over how our tax dollars are spent.

DonBee

Fri, Aug 9, 2013 : 2:18 p.m.

YpsiLivin - So each of those teachers only teaches 1 hour a day! Wow, just wow! My 1st grade teacher was in the classroom all day, she did not rotate with 5 other teachers. My Government teacher only taught 2 sections of Government, but he taught 2 more of US History and 1 of World history. The reality is Teachers teach more than 1 class, and the $420,000 per classroom, is reality. Ann Arbor has some coaches that get full pay, and coaching pay on top that only teach 4 classes, but most teachers are in the classroom at least 5 classes a day (the exception being Skyline with 5 longer class periods). So would you like to try again?

YpsiLivin

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 9:16 p.m.

DonBee, I don't think your math is quite right. The $420,000 covers SIX classes, not one.

aamom

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 4:13 a.m.

But don bee. Even if we pass a countywide mileage, we would still be donating a huge chunk of those taxes to neighboring districts, no? There is no way we can fund 7th hour locally without being forced to give money away to other districts.

DonBee

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 8:53 p.m.

Barb - Not quite true. The WISD can put an "enhancement" millage on the ballot for up to 2 mills that is then split equally by student count for the schools in WISD. This was done and defeated 2 years ago. Much of the budget games played in the last 2 years by AAPS is to make sure that parents will come out in droves next May and pass this millage. The question to ask is this one. Given all the funding sources a classroom of 30 students at AAPS generates $420,000 - the teacher (salary, benefits, and retirement contribution) costs $104,000. SO... Where does the other $316,000 go?

Barb

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 7:56 p.m.

You do realize that's no longer possible, right?

Maria Huffman

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 1:50 a.m.

We got a packet in the mail from Pioneer for registration and asking for the $100 yesterday.

TryingToBeObjective

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 1:50 a.m.

Perhaps seventh hour will be eliminated, at no cost, other than the frivolous lawsuit.

SilentScream

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 12:17 a.m.

We haven't paid anything yet, or been asked to.

TryingToBeObjective

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 1:49 a.m.

CLX, all students now are only required to take one year of PE. Not a year and a half. Not all of them are athletes. One semester PE was cut from the budget. People aren't spewing ate at music classes, per se, but it's not fair for 80% of the district to make choices to fit six classes in their schedule, while 20% of the district gets whatever classes their heart desires. ANY student taking seven classes is impacting the other 80%, by increasing class sizes. That's not fair. It's not giant music, it just so happens that the frivolous lawsuit is by music students. And there are ways to schedule six classes including music, and graduate. Other commenters have done it. Effort is required, not a handout.

CLX

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 11:42 p.m.

That doesn't seem like a fair comparison. "Athletes" still get to take gym class with for a year and a half, and they don't have to pay extra. And why not charge for art class? And shop? And a foreign language? And anything else that folks don't seem to consider core. Your frivolous classes are someone else's core class. I think it's crazy that everyone is spewing hate at music class (and I say this without a kid in music class). Ann Arbor public schools are known for their amazing and award-winning music classes -- it is incredibly short-sighted to short-change a program that brings national recognition to our public school system.

a2citizen

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 9:46 p.m.

Musicians can get scholarships, also. But what does that have to do with it?

sh1

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 8:40 p.m.

Athletes can get scholarships.

ccsummer

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 7:52 p.m.

I don't remember my 5 kids, who went all the way through Ann Arbor public schools, getting a totally free ride. Kids entering a project for a science fair, for example, pay for their supplies. And it seems to me science projects weren't optional. I know there are kids in our schools whose parents can't afford any extra fees, for music programs, athletic programs, or this 7th hour. Heck, there are kids in our schools who don't have warm winter coats. I'll be watching this lawsuit very carefully. I bet defending charging for the 7th hour will cost more than offering the 7th hour for no cost.

amusedbythecomments

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 7:14 p.m.

They do not pay for their credit courses, but they pay fees for uniforms and competitions.

Barb

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 7:42 p.m.

It appears you don't really understand what Socialism is.

bobslowson

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 7:10 p.m.

Lay off the Hannity Coulter. You will be a much better person for it. Hate will get you no where

kelz

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 4:21 p.m.

You can't take everything online, also the online courses require a larger time commitment as is the nature of online classes to prove you are doing the work. You will at least spend 2 hours daily, that would be in addition to your 6 other courses homework. They must have dropped it down to $100, a teacher actually moved my daughter to the online version of her class her sophomore year and it made her have a 7th hour. They billed me $250. I had the take her out immediately and put her back in the inclass course.

Somargie

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 3:50 a.m.

Calling children "dummies" is not appropriate at all.

TryingToBeObjective

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 11:44 p.m.

My kid took extra courses in the summer to accommodate his schedule. With a 3.85 GPA -he isnt a dummie. I certainly didn't expect the district to pay for The CONVENIENCE. Seventh hour kids weren't smart enough to take foreign language and math for high school credit in middle school? They also aren't smart enough to utilize online classes to take the classes they WANT, not need. If the parents of these kids weren't cheap, and actually made an effort with scheduling, such as utilizing online courses, they wouldn't have this problem.

CLX

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 11:43 p.m.

Summer class is "try again." Doesn't seem unreasonable to pay if you have to take the class twice. The first time was free.

TryingToBeObjective

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 11:38 p.m.

Skyline is not required to take five classes per day. Only if credits are needed. I believe they have to take to least four per day in order to play sports. Also, Skyline had to cut $300,000(?) from their budget (and only theirs) in order to keep trimesters. There is actual data- only 20% of the instruct takes seventh hour. The 80% of us bear the result- larger class sizes to accommodate extra students.

olddog

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 8:16 p.m.

so have PHS and HHs go to block schedule or trimester.

DonBee

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 7:37 p.m.

TTBO and Kris - Unfortunately I will have to sort it out with the school when. The intent may be exactly what Andy Thomas stated, but the result is that at least a few people got billed for 6 classes, that ended up with 1 in 7th hour. As to online classes, my children like online classes, they like Michigan Virtual a lot. If the district made it easier to take more of them, I would authorize my children to take more of them, they do well in them and retain the materials.

kris

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 1:22 p.m.

Don Bee: in your scenario, your children are taking 6 classes, not 7 so you would not have to pay the $100. That was stated in the annarbor.com article that originally reported this BOE decision.

TryingToBeObjective

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 5:08 a.m.

DonBee, are your children unable to take an online course? I'm assuming a computer is available. Or they could have used one at school during that fourth period, and be done at sixth hour. MANY core courses are available, and I believe taking at least one online course as become a graduation requirement, though I'm not sure when that goes into effect.

TryingToBeObjective

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 5:02 a.m.

They are charging for a seventh class, not taking a class during seventh hour. There is a big difference. At CHS, kids have open blocks midday all the time, since FAR fewer classes are offered. There may be FEWER students in classes if they cancel seventh hour, since 20% (derived from previous district statistics posted on AA.com) of students won't be a body in a seat in a seventh class. 80% of the district makes it work. Also, if seventh hour classes are cut, perhaps fewer kids would split enroll, opening seats for students who actually attend a school full time. Perhaps the district could start there- don't allow split enrollment, and see where the class sizes are at that point.

DonBee

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 3:06 a.m.

TTBO - Consider this last year my children were scheduled by the district (not by themselves) to go to class 1, 2, 3, 5, 6 &7. No music, no special classes. The reason - the core classes were full in 4th hour and so they had to be scheduled into those classes in 7th hour. So I should pay $100 for a 7th hour class because the district does not have room in a class during hours 1 to 6? Then add the transportation hassle on top of that, since there are no 7th hour buses. A lot of students would take a 7th hour if there was transportation, since there is not until they can drive in 11th or 12th grade, they are unable to take a 7th hour class which reduces the number of students who do, not the number that would like to. When they get to 11th or 12th grade and can drive, many who need 7th hour classes are from families who cannot afford a car for their student, and live well beyond the AATA boundaries because that is where almost all of the affordable housing is for the working poor. So your use of the 20 percent number is based on the fact that about 1/2 of the students probably could (logistically) and of that 1/2 about 40 percent do (20% of 50%). Yes, they will probably cancel 7th hour and crowd the other hours of classes beyond belief, triggering the over 30 student bonuses to teachers that will probably well exceed the $100,000 they plan to get in revenue. I do not look forward to working through schedule in a week or so with my children.

Topher

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 12:03 a.m.

@TryingToBeObjective - Thank you for being such a rational and well-said comment!

TryingToBeObjective

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 11:34 p.m.

DonBee, students at Community are charged for seventh hour, and were not allowed to register for a seventh hour last spring. Forum is 0.25 credits per semester, the minimal cost of which is pulled out of the school budget. The cost for attending CHS is in line with Pioneer and Huron. If you want to play up "disadvantages", then all high schools would have to offer the same plethora of electives. Community does not have anywhere near the amount available at the three large high schools, that's the trade off. Some of us without money still make it work- by paying $225 for summer school courses that we really can't afford. This lawsuit isn't about education, it's about convenience. Any student has been able to earn both a math and a foreign language credit in middle school. Any student has been able to take online classes, which include foreign language. There are no excuses here. They CHOOSE not to. Only 20% of the district takes a seventh course. That makes it blatantly obvious whether its needed or not. Perhaps the 80% of the rest of us should sue the other 20% for taking up unneeded space in classrooms, and making class sizes larger. I expect seventh hour to be cut, permanently, due to these two parents. Then they will figure out they HAVE to make choices, not have everything handed to them.

easy123

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 7:05 p.m.

Southfield posse?

TryingToBeObjective

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 4:48 a.m.

No, it's not needed. 80% of the district does without seven classes. There are online options. There's a difference between want and need. And making an effort, or not. Have these parents EVER enrolled their kid in an online course? Doubt it. That would take effort. What I'll they do if seventh hour is cancelled? Oh, that's right. They will HAVE to make choices, like the non-elite 80% of the district.

The Infinite Jester

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 2:05 a.m.

yes you can take math in middle school, but most 4 year colleges require 4 years of math and 4 years of a foreign language. if a student also wishes to participate in music classes for 4 years, a seventh hour is needed

TryingToBeObjective

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 1:40 a.m.

Infinite jester, it's not necessary for 80% of the district. There are online classes, and ALL kids can take math as well as foreign language in middle school- taking care of two of their HS credits. Excuses.

The Infinite Jester

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 11:43 p.m.

A seventh hour is necessary if a student participates in music and language classes.

Basic Bob

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 9:45 p.m.

Apparently you (and many other people) made choices. That is obviously asking too much for these people.

Elijah Shalis

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 8:24 p.m.

That is correct, a 7th hour is not necessary.

spaghettimonsters

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 8:08 p.m.

Thanks for paying your dues. But this is no longer 1998. A reality check: that was 15 years ago. Times change.

Barb

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 7:40 p.m.

Good for you, Elijah - but I think I'm missing your point. Are you saying the ACLU is doing the right thing but all kids should be able to get honors without their help?

kelz

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 4:15 p.m.

Again...the COST is not the point.

Chester Drawers

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 1:53 p.m.

C'mon, Lola. 'Math nerd kid?' Not nice!

EyeHeartA2

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 11:04 p.m.

@incubo734: "Rush Limbaugh said it so it must be true!" Do you have a podcast or link where Rush discusses the AA schools? No? So, who is makin' stuff up now? You know, stuff that ain't true?

incubo734

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 7:42 p.m.

easy - Using big words like socialist when he has no idea what he means. Rush Limbaugh said it so it must be true!

easy123

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 7:06 p.m.

John - another socialist expecting everything to be free

Lola

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 6:59 p.m.

I don't think I should have to pay a penny more for my music loving child to get the education she wants and deserves if your math nerd kid doesn't have to.

barefootdave

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 6:54 p.m.

I love statements like free and entitled to, they promote such a great work ethic and social responsibility.

John

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 6:45 p.m.

A public education is FREE, and it should be.

Angry Moderate

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 10:07 p.m.

Do you read the news? They are already complaining that black kids get suspended more often.

John

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 9:07 p.m.

"Also, LOL at fining students for skipping class, swearing, and fighting. The NAACP would have a heart attack." Well, that's one of the more racist things I've seen on here in a while. Congrats.

Angry Moderate

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 8:30 p.m.

I think a parking pass was $75, and I graduated years ago. Why should people who drive cars subsidize people who take extra classes? The two have nothing to do with each other. Also, LOL at fining students for skipping class, swearing, and fighting. The NAACP would have a heart attack.

bunnyabbot

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 7:54 p.m.

I didn't know they were already charging for parking, perhaps they should raise the rate (and hopefully parents have their kids chip in for the cost). I was also going to suggest charging (fining) kids for skipping classes without parental excuse, charging them (fining) for disiplinary infractions and swearing.

mibadger

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 6:45 p.m.

fyi - If I remember correctly from writing the check last year, student parking passes at Pioneer cost $50 for the year.

TryingToBeObjective

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 1:34 a.m.

So they're just cheap. They don't care about burdening the district financially. They don't care that their kids WANTS affect the other kids NEEDS with increased class sizes. What principle? I hope the district cuts seventh hour entirely. I'm sure families will be lining up to thank them.

DNB

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 12:24 a.m.

@rosewater: I know one of the these families, and they easily CAN afford the $100. It's obviously about the principle for them.

CLX

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 8:36 p.m.

Yes, shockingly, some folks do do things for the principle.

spaghettimonsters

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 8:06 p.m.

The ACLU is likely footing the bill--it's what they're for.

Angry Moderate

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 7:30 p.m.

Do you think the ACLU charges legal fees?

Basic Bob

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 9:42 p.m.

Makes sense to me. Your state education aid dollars hard at work keeping law firms in business instead of educating kids. Perhaps they should take up a collection for this kind of silliness.

thecompound

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 11:47 a.m.

Most adults on these threads can express their anger without this excessive name calling and bragging, give it a rest!

TryingToBeObjective

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 4:44 a.m.

Their parents are to blame. They are wasting more money the district doesn't have on a stupid lawsuit without merit. Yep, I'm pissed.

towncryer

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 2:47 a.m.

Wow. Whether one agrees with this or not, wishing and almost instigating venom and misfortune on the people in the story is pretty sick. Nice example to set for the kids.

TryingToBeObjective

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 1:31 a.m.

So. Should have thought if that before adding to the already overburdened district. Their kids, among others, increase class sizes for the 80% of the rest of us due to their personal greed. I hope any colleges they apply to get wind of these trouble makers. Their cheap parents should have thought about the fallout before filing this frivolous lawsuit. Too late.

kelz

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 4:14 p.m.

The athletic costs are just passed on to the parents when you register your child. My daughter plays 2 sports. I read they are thinking of raising the pay to play fees as well.

thecompound

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 3:19 p.m.

Ahhh, the old "your kid didn't get into Community" argument. Don't we all pay for the luxury of the select few to attend Community, just as we pay for a select few to have seventh hour? I have no dog in either the 7th hour or the Community fight, I just find it hilarious to read the hypocrisy.

TryingToBeObjective

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 4:51 a.m.

Can't speak for Tappan, but we'll take Scarlett kids at Forsythe. Our Forsythe kids cant afford to go to DC like THOSE Tappan kids. It's not about making you happy. Sorry your kid didn't get in to CHS, but don't take it out on those that do.

Basic Bob

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 1:49 a.m.

@TTBO, Scarlett will stay open, only because Tappan parents and teachers won't take THOSE kids. CHS has never had 500 students, and there is enough room for all of them in Huron, Pioneer, or Skyline. Split them up and its a no-brainer. Put them all into Skyline, it would make me happy.

TryingToBeObjective

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 1:25 a.m.

The 500 CHS students wouldn't fit into the already overcrowded other schools that are further overburdened by the elite 20% of the district that impacts the class sizes of the 80% of the rest if us. CHS is fully enrolled, highly sought after, and demand increases every year. It's one of the few successful things that the district has. There's always the option to close underenrolled schools- Northside, Roberto Clemente, and Scarlett, among others. Problem solved. That's coming anyways.

Basic Bob

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 9:39 p.m.

Close the downtown high school. Problem solved.

CLX

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 8:39 p.m.

KMHall - Athletes are paying more and more ($280 minimum this year, and more in certain sports), and I suspect that trend will continue. I chuckle at your example of tennis, which is not an expensive sport. Cut football and you would be talking some serious money!

KMHall

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 8:14 p.m.

Urfe Thanks for mentioning The Sacred Cow. How many students are served by a tennis program (of which I am a huge fan), for example, compared to the coaches salary and upkeep and busses? America needs to beef up the math and science education for non AP students, for example. I predict that the athletic party will come to an end. Now I'll duck my head for the down votes.

kuriooo

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 1:49 a.m.

Cornelius Nestor, this is my point exactly. Rather than take action legally that may result in everyone loosing the 7th hour option, why not try to start a fund to help families who really can't pay send their kids to a 7th hour? To elaborate on the point about 'leveling the playing field for everyone': If you already have the money, you can find your kid private lessons or tutoring for that "extra" curricular activity that used to exist in the school system under the 7th hour policy. Really needy families aren't going to have that "private lesson" option available as easily , it would be better served via the 7th hour and made available to more students (some whose families can afford to support it, and a fund for those who can't).

Cornelius Nestor

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 10:23 p.m.

To KMHall: I hate to think about the AAPS "having a conversation" with the ACLU through lawyers at $250 hour. But, if that's what they're doing, they may reckon that it's just tax money, not real money. I'll remember this next time the ACLU calls me for a contribution.

KMHall

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 8:10 p.m.

Cornelius AAPS has thought through all these law suit issues before making this decision. I suspect the system will remain as publicized. The ACLU (of which I am a fan) has to do this sort of thing. The playing field is, in fact, not level in America or in Ann Arbor. Maybe the point of the suit is to bring more conversation about who gets into and who succeeds in college with or without a 7th hour.

easy123

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 7:09 p.m.

You already have tiers - take a look at the kids taking AP classes or the sports kids. There is already a strata that develops. Guess who becomes the doctor or engineer! Now try and get rid of the AP classes and watch the education quality and the stock the kids rapidly drop. typical equalization

Basic Bob

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 9:39 p.m.

Freedom is not free. Does Moss work for free?

John

Fri, Aug 9, 2013 : 1:25 p.m.

It's not 1921 anymore jack...sorry !

ViSHa

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 3:12 a.m.

@Basic Bob, like someone else said, you can't possibly compare the whiners who dont want the downtown high school closed to these "whiners". Nope, not at all ~sarcasm~

Susie Q

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 1:52 a.m.

Well, the obvious solution to the Skyline inequity is to make them switch to semesters. Then it will be equally unfair to everyone.

TryingToBeObjective

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 1:20 a.m.

Steve, 80% of the district is perfectly capable of using their brain to schedule six classes per semester and till graduate. Including the extra option of taking a year of HS foreign language and a year of HS math credit in middle school. Sad that 20% of parents don't have the ability that 80% do.

Basic Bob

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 9:38 p.m.

Lots of ways they can save money. Like getting rid of the extra downtown high school.

neutrality

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 7:59 p.m.

Looks like my kids need to go to skyline, since the district is favoring those kids by giving them better chances for more credits at no extra charge. Time to move kids, wait I live in the skyline district already, that's great. I still think it should be the same at all the high schools, just do the six each day and get skyline down with the others. Great info guys, without all the feedback I wouldn't learn half the stuff I know now from living in Ann Arbor.

Steve

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 7:36 p.m.

jack, the problem is that mandated graduation requirements are different now then when we were kids. Depending on the district, students must now take as many as 7 additional classes to graduate compared to their peers prior in the class of 2011. Most districts have not changed their schedules to allow students to take the same electives we were able to take while still meeting the graduation requirements. Districts that do try to change often come under fire for going to block scheduling or trimesters due to the additional cost. In reality, the graduation requirements amount to another mandate from the state that schools are expected to fulfill while the funding for the schools is being cut.

Chester Drawers

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 7:36 p.m.

Except that, as LSB noted above, Skyline students can earn 7.5 credits per year at no charge while Huron and Pioneer students can only earn 6. How is that equality?

EyeHeartA2

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 5:58 p.m.

Jack, you beat me to it.

a2ben

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 4:25 p.m.

Let's ignore the "music and art" aspect as that strays into the "value of arts in education" debate which is a related but different topic. I'm most concerned about the "foreign language, advanced placement courses and alternative career programs". Premise 1: Inclusion of "foreign language, advanced placement courses and alternative career programs" make for a richer educational curriculum. Agreed? Premise 2: The mission of public schools is to provide everyone equal access to education. Agreed? Adding *any* economic barrier to *any* part of the educational curriculum breaks the public school model. Charging students for access to a better education means that economically disadvantaged students will not have access to that better education. Parents can and do pay for additional education outside of public schools, which is their right. But the entire point of public schools is to provide an education that is equally available to everyone.

ViSHa

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 12:52 p.m.

I don't know Lola from Adam, but I find it absolutely disgusting that a poster is allowed to comment on whether or not they find college in her child's future. TTBO, I have read all your hateful comments on here, you really need to look within as to why you need to cut everyone else down while simultaneously going on and on about your own child's accomplishments and your stellar parenting. Seriously.

Goober

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 10:28 p.m.

Yes! Lets talk to the AA BOE to see if they can resolve this without a law suit. Do we think this will work?

skigrl50

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 8:46 p.m.

@a2ben - perhaps the child of the financially struggling parent could work during the summer even at the PTSO thrift store to earn the $200 to pay for the 7th hour class. AAPS is only required to pay for the state required mandated graduation requirements. I totally understand students wanting to take 7th hour classes, both of my kids took 7th hour classes and they actually preferred them because the kids that took them actually wanted to be at school (equals no discipline problems). I also totally understand wanting a rich curriculum for students that are generally offered in public schools in most of America. We may be headed for the model that much of the rest of the world uses and that is where sports and music are community based programs not school based.

RuralMom

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 7:54 p.m.

a2ben, you don't think music in comparison to say Algebra or English is an extra? Oh and I was a single mother, with musicians in the family, who worked a 2nd job so they could have the music education I wanted them to have. I didn't ask anyone else to foot the bill. When I married, my Husband paid his Child Support to his Ex Wife, and then extra for Music lessons. Music after a certain level is an extra, not a necessity.

a2ben

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 7:48 p.m.

"So you want others to help pay for your choices verses choosing within your means or paying for these extras?" I like how you try to turn this into an ethical strawman of some overspending parent who would rather buy a second Beemer than pay for some unnecessary "extras". First, the "extra" you're referring to is a good education - regardless of your feelings about "the arts" (which used to be part of the core educational curriculum), I think we can all agree that "advanced placement" courses are not fluff, and "alternative career programs" are the only thing going for some students who are not college bound. Second, this is not about some imaginary over-spender complaining about the $100 because they can't afford the mortgage on their McMansion. This is all about the minimum wage single mom who wants her gifted child to have the opportunity for a good education. Maybe she can squeeze the $100 into her budget if they skip a few meals this semester, but what about when it's $1000? It's a slippery slope. The entire point of public education is to provide an equal opportunity to everyone, regardless of economic background. As soon as you put a price tag on "better" education you've strayed from the entire point of the public education system.

RuralMom

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 7:39 p.m.

so your child only cares about music classes and not academic, now others should have to support that financially? No sorry, basics are covered, the extra's are on you. Why didn't you address well before high school what the exact nature of the problem that academic courses are such a struggle for her and why do you think others should foot the bill. Don't even start with me, I have one kid at U of M Medical School (thank you Pioneer), one with a learning disability - who happens to be a history buff, and one that graduated High School as a Certified Nursing Assistant (thank you WISD for the Vocational Training), you find their strong suits and play to them within the rules of engagement.

Lola

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 6:56 p.m.

I have a child who only cares about the music classes and barely applies herself to the academic courses. If it were not for music it would be hard for me to get her to be excited about school at all. Clearly my child is not the over-achiever a lot of you don't seem to support. For us music is not an extra but an essential.

Ric

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 1:25 a.m.

There are no truly economically needy under Obama.

TryingToBeObjective

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 1:10 a.m.

CLX, students at Community who want to take a seventh hour are charged. Forum, which is 0.25 credits per semester, is factored into the CHS budget, eliminating the option of having the extraordinary amount of electives offered at the three larger schools. Skyline had to cut an extra $300,000 from their own budget to keep trimesters.

John

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 9:03 p.m.

"If you have a public school system charging only students at two of the four high schools for credit hours that others can earn for free, then you have a problem." Are we certain that the student population at all 4 highschools have the same course demands as the two that are charging for the 7th hour?

CLX

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 5:56 p.m.

If you have a public school system charging only students at two of the four high schools for credit hours that others can earn for free, then you have a problem. i don't know if that is true, but it was a big complaint among Pioneer and Huron parents when this was being considered, and at least one commentator above suggests that it is indeed true.

kelz

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 4:08 p.m.

Besides the cost of WCC classes, what if you don't have a car to drive to WCC? Not all high school students have their own transportation.

TryingToBeObjective

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 4:39 a.m.

Online courses are free if one of the six.

Susie Q

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 1:50 a.m.

AAPS would not foot the bill for a student to take a "7th class" at WCC, only if it was one of the six "regular"courses . $100 per semester is WAY less than it would cost at WCC. I imagine another option might be for a student to pay to take a class during summer school or pay to take an online course. Then they could take 4 years of foreign language AND four years of music. The new Michigan Merit Curriculum that was adopted in 2006 or so limited some options for students and so does the fact that the "elite" colleges and universities want to see 4 years of math, science, English, foreign language and at least three years of social studies. It is difficult to fit all that into a six period day without making some difficult choices or spending some $. Tough times require tough choices.

Angry Moderate

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 8:27 p.m.

ccsummer - AAPS pays for WCC classes.

ccsummer

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 7:32 p.m.

I'm pretty sure a class at WCC costs more than $100/semester.

John

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 8:09 p.m.

@Solitude, nothing I have said implies that those courses are neither worthy nor valuable. They are simply not part of the required curriculum, for the reasons you have stated. I do not deny that fact. I do deny that the rest of the school and students should have to stress their budget and resources unnecessarily to make them fit back in.

Solitude

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 6:36 p.m.

@John, that attitude is toxic and short-sighted. The point of an education is not to "get them into elite schools." A complete and well-rounded education is its own reward, and it pays off immeasurable dividends to society as a whole. You are also forgetting that a few short years ago, music and art and sports were considered "core" basic requirements in providing a complete education. Just because it has become popular to jettison the fundamentals of a good education in the rush to protect administration salaries doesn't make it right, or desirable. Our kids have already been eclipsed by kids from most of the developed countries in the world. Your attitude perfectly illustrates why this is true.

John

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 5:33 p.m.

No one penalizes them. They choose to go the extra mile (and good for them), and asking them to pay an extra $100 to do the things that will get them into elite schools where they'll be paying tens of thousands of dollars a semester in tuition doesn't seem unreasonable.

grimmk

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 3:24 p.m.

Forum was our 7th hour. At least when I went to Community back in the late 90s.

ViSHa

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 12:46 p.m.

LSB, personally I think your last statement is the crux of this lawsuit. The fee just opens the door..

LSB

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 5:48 p.m.

At Skyline, students have trimesters so they get 7.5 credits per year if they take a normal class schedule (five hours, each of which is longer than the hours at Pioneer). Result after 4 years = 30 credits (you need 22 to graduate). Apparently this isn't changing because of budget cuts. At Pioneer, students who take 6 classes under the semester system get 6 credits per year if they take a normal class schedule (6 hours). Result after 4 years = 24 credits. If you look at it in this way, students at Pioneer who take six hours don't get what kids at Skyline can have. Only by taking the 7th hour do they get anywhere close to the amount of credits available at Skyline. Unfair! Spoken as parent of 2 Skyline grads, by the way.

Tex Treeder

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 5:41 p.m.

Community does something called "block scheduling". As I remember it, Monday and Wednesday have double blocks of Classes 1, 3 and 5, plus a regular session at the end of the day for a home room type class. Tuesday and Thursday have doubles of Classes 2,4 and 6, plus the regular length session at the end of the day. Friday has regular length sessions of 1 through 6, plus the end of day home room session. That was in a regular week. Sometimes the days would change if there was a holiday, and the schedule would shift to the right, or Friday would become a regular day. As a parent of a Community student, I was never sure which classes were on which day, but the kids and teachers seemed to understand it just fine.

Rachel Tucker

Fri, Aug 9, 2013 : 12:38 a.m.

jns131- Actually, I've had a great high school experience and my parents have on more than a few occasions encouraged me to take an easier course load than I decided to. And, for the record, I never took a 7th hour except for my senior year (when a class that I loved was only offered then). Good to know that you've got me pegged though. Honestly, I'm hoping that that was a troll comment because you spelled "High School" wrong while admonishing me for my dedication to education.

jns131

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 10:34 p.m.

Well boo hoo to you too over achiever. At least my child has a life. As for you? Sounds like you will have one what? After you retire? I think teenagers need to slow it down and smell the roses. As for these students? It is the parents who are forcing this one. IMO I could care less if mine goes to a great school or not. Hi school and college is so over rated it is not funny. Enjoy life and forget the books. Go take a walk somewhere and enjoy life for a while.

Rachel Tucker

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 9:12 p.m.

You have said in your comments that you don't begrudge anyone their education, and yet you keep using phases like "over-achieving, resume-padding kids." Excuse me, sir, but I am one of those "kids." I spend hours every night studying and I pour my heart into my extracurriculars- and you know what? I've earned my privileges. I probably could have gotten into a private university if I had applied, but U of M is what my family can afford and so that's what I decided to go for. So don't you dare assume that I somehow take for granted that fact that "kids in the surrounding districts would probably be happy to have facilities that have been updated in the past 30 years" because this is somehow a characteristic inherent in being from a certain city. I'm sure that many of those students work hard as well, but Ann Arbor gives 80% of our education money to other school districts. Let me have this.

jns131

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 2:38 a.m.

Mine is an ice skater. Having her into 7th hour? Works out great. She gets to practice one hour before and then hits school at 2nd hour. Heck. I am all for this type of education. No cadillacs here. Just Jalopies.

John

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 8:06 p.m.

Listen, I have nothing against taking music. I love that kids are taking foreign languages, etc, etc etc. Problem is, you can't have everything without trade-offs. There are only so many hours in a day, and if you can't make it work alongside the core required classes, there are going to have to be hard decisions to make. Take FL classes and play music as a hobby. Take art and study Spanish at home on your own time, etc. Those things are what real people do when they have to decide how to fill their time. They don't file ACLU lawsuits.

Michelle Pierson

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 7:34 p.m.

Bah! A lot of schools are much newer than Pioneer.

a2ben

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 7:25 p.m.

John's vision of "over-achieving, resume-padding kids" raised by "helicopter parents" is a straw man. As fun as it is to feed the Ann Arbor elitist stereotype, these are just normal kids who actually want a good education so that they can be successful in life. John is absolutely correct that other districts are worse off than Ann Arbor. I think it would be great if we could have equal educational opportunities across every public school in the country. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way, and making Ann Arbor schools worse won't make the others better. Dumbing everyone down to the same level is absolutely the wrong answer. Bottom line, charging individual students for a "better" education is antithetical to AAPS's mission as a public school - we have plenty of private schools for that.

Chester Drawers

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 6:48 p.m.

It doesn't cost any more to have a teacher work 2-7 rather than 1-6, but it does cost more for a student to be in 7 teachers' classrooms each day rather than in 6 teachers' classrooms. For example, if there are 1000 students in the school, and each student takes 1 extra hour each day, that would require 1000 extra seats in a classroom each day. If each teacher sees 150 kids each day (don't they wish!) that would mean you need 6.66 more teachers.

John

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 5:43 p.m.

"having some teachers work classes 1-6 and others work 2-7" This assumes, of course, that the district could make such a scheme work without diverting those resources from necessary 1-6 duties. For every teacher you put on 2-7, you are eliminating a regular-day course. You have solved nothing.

John

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 5:41 p.m.

Who forced them against their will to take music instead of the core classes needed to graduate?

grye

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 5:35 p.m.

Wrong. these kids take music classes that are not part of the core curriculum. Since the music classes happen during the day, the 7th hour is needed to cover the last core class. I still don't understand how having some teachers work classes 1-6 and others work 2-7 cost any more?

John

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 5:27 p.m.

Also: "creating a two-tiered system in which students who have money get ahead, while those who do not fall behind" While I generally agree with the ACLU's mission, and see where they're going with this, context is everything. We're not talking about kids barely getting by in their studies who need a seventh hour to pass core classes. These are kids who have loaded their schedules up with activities in order to get into very elite universities and colleges. Plenty of kids "get ahead" just fine without all of that.

jns131

Wed, Aug 14, 2013 : 2:58 p.m.

Looks like your high school education is not working very hard. If you take a look at the beginning of sentence H is capitalized. Whether or not you say Hi School or High School it is all the same thing. As for being a troll? Take it for what it is worth. Teens are over achievers because of their parents.

Thomas

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 9:15 p.m.

Well said Jenjen0052, time for them to make choices. If foreign language gets you in to a college then drop another class that won't help you get in to college.

spaghettimonsters

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 8:03 p.m.

I'm confused. I went to high school not all that long ago, in reality. There were EIGHT periods (AND a "zero hour" very early morning period of very limited offerings, mostly the required PE class). Is only six classes a day normal for Michigan?

John

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 5:19 p.m.

Waiting for them to sue for gas money to drive them to all those resume-padding extra-curriculars. Heaven forbid a family has to learn to budget time and money when their kid ABSOLUTELY HAS TO get into a high-dollar elite scholl where they will almost surely have to...budget time and money...

Jenjen0052

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 5:03 p.m.

Seventh* silly smartphone keyboards...

fanny

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 7:23 p.m.

A2Ben - students are not being charged for required classes. The district is only paid to teach 6 classes, thus, to include a 7th hour comes out of the district's own pocket. All students are given the opportunity to not only meet their 16 required credits, but also can take up to 12 semester classes (6credis) in electives. The district cannot spend money that it doesn't have. That would be fiscally irresponsible. Sometimes students have to make tough choices ie., 4 years of foreign language or 4years of music.

easy123

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 7:14 p.m.

Then, pay additional taxes - that should cover it. This is sound like an entitlement society - where is mine- No wonder - it is a Democratic city. All fluff with no meat!

Lola

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 6:47 p.m.

There are kids out there who plan to pursue careers in music and foreign languages. Is it fair that the kid who plans to become a doctor doesn't have to pay to take the courses that are in her/his area of interest but the ones who want to become musicians, etcetera do? Not everyone wants to major in math, science, English or history in college. Music and foreign languages are not extra curricular activities. Athletic programs are.

mibadger

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 6:37 p.m.

a2ben - The last 2 paragraphs of your comment hit the nail on the head. I believe that the students who "need" to have a 7th hour class are doing so because they are taking more electives (art, music, foreign language) then most students. They would have enough room in their schedule to complete the graduation requirements in a 6 hour day if they cut back on those electives. Is that an ideal solution? No. But if they don't want to/can't pursue those elective opportunities outside of school, where they would also presumably have to pay for them, then they have to pay for a 7th hour.

a2ben

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 6:25 p.m.

Are we really debating the merits of public education? The basis of the suit is that students "rely on seventh-hour classes to obtain enough credits to graduate". If true this means they are not optional, and charging this fee fundamentally changes the funding structure of the school from publicly funded (paid equally by all tax payers) to a public/private mix (paid at least partially by individual students families). If Ann Arbor Schools wish to become private schools this is "fine", but you cannot be a "public" school while charging students for required course credits. In reality of course, I have a feeling the situation is more complex, and the article alludes that students "rely on seventh-hour classes to obtain enough credits to graduate" only if they are taking other optional "music, art, foreign language, advanced placement courses and alternative career programs". Of course it is desirable to offer all of these programs, but with current budgetary realities this may not be possible. Bottom line is that students should never be charged for required coursework in a public school. In an ideal world, students should not be charged for optional coursework that provides a more rich educational experience, like the "music, art, foreign language, advanced placement courses and alternative career programs" - these should be funded by the tax base if the community/state/country values having good schools. When these extra programs and not funded by the tax base, the remaining choice is to let the students who can afford them pay individually, or not offer them at all. Neither option is great - paying individually is contrary to public education's mission of equal opportunity for all, while cutting the programs completely means everyone loses.

cinnabar7071

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 6:06 p.m.

"Charging families for public education is ethically wrong." Do you have any idea WHO pays for education? Answer: Everybody, even folks that don't have children.

Susie Q

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 5:44 p.m.

The alternative option is to just not offer a 7th hr. AAPS cannot afford the "Cadillac" program anymore. They used to receive approx $9700 per student; they now receive approx $9000 per student. And employees have been eliminated, transportation cut, athletics cut, class sizes approach 40 in some cases, employees have taken pay cuts, energy costs are up, health insurance costs are up, etc, etc. The funding is not there anymore for a "free" 7th hr.

John

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 5:21 p.m.

I don't see what the difference is between this and some schools charging students for equipment costs for sports programs. You make choices, and sometimes they come with costs. Deal.

Jenjen0052

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 5:03 p.m.

It's not charging for an education; it's charging for extra options!

kelz

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 4:04 p.m.

You are missing the point, it is not about being able to afford the class, that is just one portion of the issue. Students should not be charged to take a 7th hour class. The state has imposed additional graduation requirements on high school students. If you intend to go to college, they want students with various experience and knowledge (i.e: music, foreign language, AP classes, etc...) May students need a 7th hour course to get in all the requirements they need to move forward academically. With the AAPS charging families of students for a 7th hour class at a public high school, this is the issue.

DwightSchrute

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 4:31 a.m.

He JRW, a family in Ann Arbor, or any district, already pays the full tuition for the year: in the form of their property taxes. To squeeze more money out of taxpayers after they've paid their share of taxes for that school district IS illegal.

bluefan_687

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 2:42 a.m.

Because of the law of unintended consequences, this lawsuit will surely lead to a cancellation of seventh hour classes rather than removal of the tuition.

jns131

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 2:36 a.m.

Thumbs up to this comment. I could not agree more. I say suck it up. Mine also has a 7th and guess what? Will still graduate only having 5 classes and guess what? Sleeps in for the 1st hour. OMG. You want 7 classes? Then pay for it.

TryingToBeObjective

Thu, Aug 8, 2013 : 1:03 a.m.

A2ben, how on earth do these "poor people" afford musical instruments? They aren't free.

John

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 10:08 p.m.

@a2ben, what I just read was, "I want to use a disproportionate amount of the communities resources due to my completely controllable personal preferences, all while offering nothing more for that privilege in return."

a2ben

Wed, Aug 7, 2013 : 7:59 p.m.

What I just read was "poor people aren't entitled to a good education". Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.