Ann Arbor graffiti case: Court orders house arrests and tethers for teens
Examples of various SAES and Mole tags from across Ann Arbor.
Melanie Maxwell | AnnArbor.com
The two teenagers accused of spray painting their monikers — SAES and Mole — all over Ann Arbor were ordered Friday to be put under house arrest and on nighttime surveillance, court records show.
The two boys were to be fitted Monday with GPS tethers, according to orders signed by juvenile Referee Gail Altenburg. The boys will also be fingerprinted and be regularly tested for drugs.
Court records also revealed more details about what each teen faces. The 15-year-old Community High School student known as SAES was charged with 16 counts total. Nine of those counts are felonies punishable by five years' imprisonment, and/or $10,000 or three times the amount of destruction or injury, whichever is greater.
Four counts are misdemeanors punishable by one year in jail and/or $2,000 or three times the amount of damage, whichever is greater. The three remaining charges are misdemeanors punishable by 93 days in jail and/or $500 or three times the amount of damage, whichever is greater.
The second suspect, who is accused of using the moniker, "Mole," is a 16-year-old Pioneer student. He faces 11 counts, six of which are felonies punishable by five years' imprisonment, and/or $10,000 or three times the amount of destruction or injury, whichever is greater. Five counts are misdemeanors punishable by one-year in jail and/or $2,000 or three times the amount of damage, whichever is greater.
Ken Singh of Bandito's restaurant said he has probably repainted his back door once a year for the past 20 years. Both boys are accused of tagging the same door.
"He screwed up the whole town," Singh said of SAES. "It's everywhere."
While Singh is glad to see a couple of the kids caught, he doesn't necessarily see the problem of graffiti downtown going away. He said he knows he will likely have to repaint the door to his restaurant at some point again, even if the two boys have been taken out of the tagging scene.
Ben Curtis' company, Curtis Commercial, owns and operates eight buildings hit by SAES and Mole downtown. Curtis put the damage done by the two at $3,000 in damages. Each tag costs between about $25 and $100 to clean up, depending on its size and the type of materials used.
Curtis doesn't just think graffiti is bad for business, he objects aesthetically to the graffiti painted by SAES and Mole.
“Not only are they vandals, but horrible artists,” he said. “I’m thrilled. I think they’ve caused a lot of damage. It’s time consuming and expensive."
The charges against the SAES tagger included:
- Malicious destruction of a building (MDOB), greater than $1,000 but less than $20,000, for the Builder's Plumbing building located at 2646 South Industrial Highway.
- Malicious destruction of personal property (MDOPP), greater than $1,000 but less than $20,000, for recreational equipment owned by the city of Ann Arbor.
- MDOB, greater than $1,000 but less than $20,000, for a building located at 321 S. Main St.
- MDOB, greater than $1,000 but less than $20,000, for a building owned by the city of Ann Arbor located at 1519 Fuller Road
- MDOPP, greater than $1,000 but less than $20,000, for a truck and/or trailer and cab.
- MDOB, greater than $1,000 but less than $20,000, for a building owned by Cabrio Properties located at 202 E. Washington St.
- MDOB, greater than $1,000 but less than $20,000, for a parking structure run by Republic Parking located at 324 Maynard St.
- MDOB, greater than $1,000 but less than $20,000, for No Thai's restaurant located at 226 North Fourth Ave.
- MDOB, greater than $1,000 but less than $20,000, for Argiero's Italian Restaurant located at 300 Detroit St.
- MDOPP, greater than $200 but less than $1,000, for a wall at Rush Street, located 314 S. Main St.
- MDOB, greater than $200 but less than $1,000, for the parking structure located at 309 Maynard St.
- MDOB, greater than $200 but less than $1,000, for Bandito's, located at 216 S. Fourth Ave.
- MDOPP, greater than $200 but less than $1,000, for a wall on the Northside Grill, located at 1015 Broadway St.
- MDOB, less than $200, for Crazy Wisdom, located at 114 S. Main St.
- MDOB, less than $200, for Kuroshiro, located at 120 E Liberty St.
- MDOB, less than $200, for Bell's Restaurant, located at 716 Packard St.
Charges against the Mole tagger include:
- MDOB, greater than $1,000 but less than $20,000, for the Builder's Plumbing building located at 2646 South Industrial Highway
- MDOB, greater than $1,000 but less than $20,000, for a building located at 321 S. Main St.
- MDOB, greater than $1,000 but less than $20,000, for a building owned by the city of Ann Arbor located at 1519 Fuller Road.
- MDOPP, greater than $1,000 but less than $20,000, for a truck and/or trailer and cab.
- MDOB, greater than $1,000 but less than $20,000, for a building owned by Cabrio Properties located at 202 E. Washington St.
- Malicious destruction of personal property (MDOPP), greater than $1,000 but less than $20,000, for recreational equipment owned by the city of Ann Arbor.
- MDOPP, greater than $200 but less than $1,000, for a wall at Rush Street, located 314 S. Main St.
- MDOPP, greater than $200 but less than $1,000, for signs at Garris and Garris Law Firm, located at 300 E. Washington St.
- MDOB, greater than $200 but less than $1,000, for the parking structure located at 309 Maynard St.
- MDOB, greater than $200 but less than $1,000, for Bandito's, located at 216 S. Fourth Ave.
- MDOPP, greater than $200 but less than $1,000, for a wall on the Northside Grill, located at 1015 Broadway St.
View SAES/MOLE Locations in a larger map
John Counts covers cops and courts for AnnArbor.com. He can be reached at johncounts@annarbor.com or you can follow him on Twitter.
Comments
Sara
Thu, May 2, 2013 : 8:35 p.m.
It's comments like these from people who seem to know everything except the actual people involved that make me realize that for all the cosmopolitan posturing, Ann Arbor is really a petty, judgmental small town at its heart.
Steve S.
Wed, May 1, 2013 : 6:32 p.m.
These 2 teenagers should be punished. One of the punishments should call for Community Service to include cleaning of all businesses that are mentioned on the list. It should include other areas not mentioned so the message can go out to any others who may be doing the same thing. This punishment shouldn't be over with until every wall, brick, sign, whatever is cleaned up! This will give them a lesson well learned. The parents of both teenagers who are responsible for their actions should be included in the cleanup if one is awarded. I personally am writing the Ann Arbor Court to advise them of our feelings on this. Ann Arbor is a city that is not only growing it's a place that houses a fine University. A place that has lots of entertainment venues and fine restaurants and shops. We don't live here, but frequent it enough to enjoy what it offers. This vandalism, whether one likes this stuff or not needs to stop IMMEDIATELY. Our hats off to finally catching a few "bad apples". They need discipline badly. Also, let's hope they can connect the vandalism to those 6 passenger cars that were "tagged" a few weeks ago. They were since cleaned up but not by those who caused it.
K Thompson
Wed, May 1, 2013 : 3:47 a.m.
Seems that putting the pictures, addresses snd list in the paper you are expanding their tagging influence even more, beyond even their ability to get recognition. It is nice to learnthe actual penalties for such behavior, though.
Arboriginal
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 6:57 p.m.
AnnArbor.com Why are comments blaming the parents allowed? Seems to be wild speculation on the part of those posting. Stick to what you know folks, yourself.
Ricardo Queso
Wed, May 1, 2013 : 2:36 a.m.
The alleged are minors. Parents are responsible for actions of minors. I see no problem.
lefty48197
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 6:06 p.m.
I remember years ago when a vandal using the tag "disco D" vandalized a ton of road signs that probably lined his bus route from school to his home. Then, one day the words "Is a f--" appeared on all the signs right after his name. I don't recall EVER seeing his tag again after that!
LaMusica
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 4:20 p.m.
I think part of their punishment should be to clean it all off, and then maybe clean up more.
jhammer
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 3:54 p.m.
I would also like to add to the charges. He got a building I own a few months back. And to all of you who feel sympathy for them, please imagine they tagged your house. Private property is private property. I applaud the courts for being heavy handed here, applying the "broken windows" philosophy. Graffiti is a small thing, but very indicative of allowing lawlessness to slowly destroy a city.
Grimey
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 1:07 p.m.
"SAES" has tagged my business and several of those around me in Ypsilanti. How do I add these to his charges?
kris
Wed, May 1, 2013 : 5:23 p.m.
Did you contact AAPD Detective Robin Larson who is doing the investigation?
lefty48197
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 4:56 p.m.
Can anybody answer his question? I get the feeling there are upwards of a hundred or more businesses which have been vandalized and who's owners want the suspects charged.
Gramma
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 1:04 p.m.
People have been putting their names on things for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. All those names carved on school desks and bleacher seats. X loves Y carved in trees or written in bathroom stalls. Political statements. While I agree that graffitti can be annoying, I think it is ridiculous to make it a felony. Criminalizing every prank and bit of teenage foolishness makes for many more "criminals," but hardly changes human nature and occasional silliness.
kris
Thu, May 2, 2013 : 1:48 a.m.
There are certainly better ways to express one's "occasional silliness" than defacing private property.
lefty48197
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 4:55 p.m.
It's not "human nature" if a handful of people do it, while tens of thousands of people DON'T do it. NOT doing it would be the "human nature".
UpperDecker
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 4:30 p.m.
What I think is ridiculous is the small time business owner that has to shell out $1,000 or so every few months in order to make their storefront presentable enough to hopefully recoup those costs and still have a business at the end o the month. These kids can go sit on coals for all I care.
Dave
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 10:30 a.m.
Horray!!!! You can do anything in America, as long as you are willing to pay the consequences. Here's hoping for long and severe! And please publish their names so we can know which parents have no idea their kiss are causing thousands in damage. And shame on MDOT for not removing the tags from their highway signs for months!!!!!
Frustrated in A2
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 4:40 a.m.
That's awesome news, I'm tired of seeing SAES every direction I look downtown. A lot of this damage probably isn't done during the day so how late do you let your 15 year old stay out at night???
Monica
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 3:39 a.m.
I dont know, some of the tags look nice to me, others are sort of ugly. I'm shocked the artists are so young, seems like I've been seeing the SAES tags around town for quite some time now, at least a couple years. I don't really mind them, what's a city without some graffiti? Maybe SAES and mole should try "reverse graffiti" next time, I have a feeling A2 residents would be more receptive: http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/featured/35-greatest-works-of-reverse-graffiti/1949?image=2
Jan Titi
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 2:57 a.m.
These kids should be put to work cleaning everything they defaced.
kris
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 2:20 a.m.
John: What exactly does "house arrest" mean for juvenile offenders? Will they be allowed to go to school or have they been suspended?
John Counts
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 5:41 p.m.
The exact terms of how the orders are carried out are probably only known by the boys, their guardians and the probation department. It was not listed in court records. In many cases, wearing a tether and being on house arrest means you can only be at school/work and home.
Billy
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 1:49 a.m.
Normally publishing photos of graffiti is akin to publishing how much money a bank robber got away with.... In this case the only thing you're doing is publicly shaming them by showing people what terrible artists they are. Also...lol @ the "toy" next to that mole tag....even his own fellow taggers think he's a joke...
cibachrome
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 1:34 a.m.
So now let's see what the very ezpensive lawyers and the parents-in-denial have to say about the whole mess. "My boy, he's an angel and a Boy Scout and..." on-and on.
Danl
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 1:29 a.m.
If they are found guilty, community service and fines would be appropriate. Incarceration would be way too draconian.
Davidian
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 10:27 a.m.
I doubt you would say that if they destroyed your property to the tune of thousands of dollars.
Indymama
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 1:02 a.m.
How in the world could these two boys get around so far from home..in Ann Arbor AND Ypsilanti. Surely they aren't driving??....or is the Mole getting close to being 17? ..with a drivers license??, and a car???
lefty48197
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 4:52 p.m.
I'm guessing the inside of some AATA buses have been vandalized too....
Balthazar Tarantula
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 2:04 a.m.
taking the bus? biking? friends with cars? not that big of a mystery...
Usual Suspect
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 12:37 a.m.
I really don't see how you let your kid out of the house when you know this is what he's doing. The parents know he's been doing it for years, and bragging about on Facebook, Flickr and Instagram. How the heck do you just let him walk out the door unsupervised, knowing he is going to commit more vandalism? This is a case where I really think the parents need to be hit with legal consequences, because they knew it was happening and they didn't stop it.
lefty48197
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 4:51 p.m.
Give the parents a toothbrush too! Get to work!
sesomai
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 11:38 p.m.
Which court system will they be tried in? The story only mentions Ann Arbor vandalism, but there's a good amount by both SAES and Mole in Ypsilanti as well.
John Counts
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 5:35 p.m.
So far, the only law enforcement agency that has sought charges against the two boys is the AAPD. It would be up to the Ypsilanti Police Department or the Sheriff's Office -- depending on the location of the graffiti -- to bring charges against them. I'm not aware of any other agencies that are doing this, however. Even if they did, if any additional cases involved felonies -- like the AAPD cases -- they would still be tried in the Washtenaw County Courthouse in downtown Ann Arbor. Only if they were charged with misdemeanors outside of Ann Arbor could they go through a district court branch in a different location.
AnnieWood
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 11:15 p.m.
Taggers on the west side you are next. We got names off Facebook and have addresses too. Every time you walk by, you are photographed. It's only a matter time.
lefty48197
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 4:50 p.m.
Go get em Annie! PILE on the charges. Why charge them with ONE crime when you can charge them with twenty?
Balthazar Tarantula
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 2:11 a.m.
not to be uh, reasonable, but taking pictures of people you think are taggers when they walk by and knowing where they live is a little borderline creepy..not to mention unless you actually get a picture of them tagging it's kind of pointless. maybe there's a better way to spend your time? just a personal suggestion?
Arboriginal
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 12:21 a.m.
Good job!
a2cents
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 11:07 p.m.
SAES: uom fieldhockey building roof; uom redlot storage units; and new e. stadium bridge abutments and wall... surprised the monied uom can't find the time or inclination to eradicate it's share.
lefty48197
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 4:50 p.m.
The U has painters who's full time job is graffiti removal.
Skyjockey43
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 10:56 p.m.
Ask Michael Fay if he'll ever even think about vandalizing cars in Singapore. (Google is your friend)
mikeh
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 1:10 a.m.
True, but he also then got into abusing butane and drugs, resulting in bad burns to his face and stints in rehab, all of which he blamed on his trying to forget what happened in Singapore. Not sure we would be taking the moral high ground there. Although must of the punishments suggested here do sound great.
TheDiagSquirrel
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 10:45 p.m.
So this wasn't the latest "Works For Art" initiative?
GetRealA2
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 10:29 p.m.
Irresponsible ne'er- do-wells and their parents should be accountable for these actions. All costs are on their tab--and theirs alone. The vig is 25% if they don't pay up!
nickcarraweigh
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 10:27 p.m.
Well, the readers clearly are glad these desperadoes have been rounded up. But were they, like Leopold and Loeb, for example, acquainted prior to the recent unpleasantness? Might this be only the tip of the iceberg on a mammoth juvenile conspiracy, perhaps spawned overseas? Skype service on the tethers might be prudent. Are the miscreants ritually tattooed?
PineyWoodsGuy
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 10:20 p.m.
Have any of yins ever taken a psychology course? Connect the dots. Why are these young men plastering their name/initials all over town? Are they beseeching that they be caught? Are they sending the message: "Catch me before I hold my breath."
Usual Suspect
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 12:41 a.m.
In my opinion they are screaming for some boundaries in their lives. I know one of them has little in that area, and another older one that has been in the news also is lacking them.
broncoslover
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 10:12 p.m.
I think Singapore had an effective deterrent for this kind of activity...:):):):)
lefty48197
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 4:48 p.m.
I think they call the punishment "caning".
Doug
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 2:06 a.m.
I've been to Singapore. Not a cigarette butt on the ground and safe streets at 2:00 o'clock in the morning!
PhillyCheeseSteak
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 12:14 a.m.
Singapore, a shining example of justice and democracy!
OLDTIMER3
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 9:35 p.m.
That's right lock this criminals and throw away the key, while violent criminals get a slap on the hand and released. Singh said he has had his door vandalized every year for 20 years, how are these 2 responsible for that?
Atlas Shrugged
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 8:57 p.m.
OK, I certainly don't condone this behavior, and don't deny the financial and other "costs" as a result of these actions. However, a couple of things come to mind: (1) As others have said, I hope a significant amount of community service goes into the punishment. (2) Given my impression that the local courts have been extraordinarily (if not stupidly) lenient on adults accused of felonies, some of which include assault and/or weapons charges that are repeated by the accused time and again (sometimes while out on parole or awaiting trial), I hope the "full weight of the law" (ie, incarceration) doesn't come down on these juveniles. Stern, if not harsh, penalties can be levied, hopefully getting the "message" ingrained in the heads of these numbskulls. Finally, I don't think I've ever seen AA.com list every one of multiple charges, along with potential penalties, in other instances -- kids or adults. Why do it here? The lists could have been condensed into a couple of summary sentences (no puns intended) and we all would have gotten the message.
John Counts
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 5:29 p.m.
Atlas Shrugged: It's rare that graffiti suspects are accused of spray painting their "monikers" all over town and are seen by a large chunk of the public -- and causing a lot damage. Still, we report on numerous vandalism cases, not just this one. The charges were listed as they were mostly so the public could see the locations connected with each charge. There may have been questions about what charges related to which place and which suspect had we summarized, so listing them out as they are on the petition seemed the best choice. It was done to avoid any confusion.
kris
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 2:10 a.m.
Barb: I'm sure that if it was your business or house that was vandalized you wouldn't be urging us to just move on
Matt Cooper
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 1:54 a.m.
I'm wondering if Atlas or Barb would think the way they do if they were the ones that had to shell out upwards of thousands of dollars of their hard earned monies to clean up spray-painted doors, windows and other items. Would they simply 'get over it' because 'it's not a big deal' when they have to be the ones to empty out their bank accounts to pay for someone else's rather idiotic youth?
mikeh
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 1:02 a.m.
It is very generous of Barb to donate tens of thousands of dollars for the cleanup so the rest of us can move on.
Barb
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 10:38 p.m.
AnnArbor.com has jumped on the bandwagon that this is a big deal. And the more noise about this that is made, the more it becomes a big deal. It's not. Clean it up and move on.
a2xarob
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 8:54 p.m.
Thank you, John Counts, for clarifying that this is not their sentence, only a way to keep track of them while the process plays out. I misread or misinterpreted that.
a2xarob
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 8:51 p.m.
Maybe there is some hyperbole (or sarcasm?) in "he screwed up the whole town," but it does look horrible, and it's all over the place. I believe it does degrade the whole town.
OLDTIMER3
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 10:02 p.m.
I find it hard to believe that these 2 did all of thre geaffitti. If they go by the suggested senences in this article they will be getting stiffer sentences than some violent criminals. They can catch this type of criminal but rapist and and such can't be caught?
texaswede
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 8:50 p.m.
The best punishment I've seen suggested is a pail, soap and water and a rag! Better add some mineral spirits, acetone and steel wool as well -- for the stubborn stuff. Then put them out to clean up all the graffiti they've committed and inspired. Should occupy them all summer and weekends into the winter. Keep them busy until they grow up a bit. I can see it now.
a2cents
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 11:09 p.m.
would prefer they lick it off... may take a while
Barzoom
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 8:45 p.m.
Hooray...Get these vandals off the streets. Make them or their parents responsible for cleaning up their messes.
mady
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 5:55 p.m.
OR their parents? AND their parents!
lefty48197
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 8:44 p.m.
Because the powers that be in Ann Arbor are so soft on crime like this, nobody will ever be locked up for these crimes, regardless of how many tens of thousands of dollars in damage they have caused. I like how Detroit handled a similar situation a couple of years back. They caught a couple of out of state spray paint vandals and they tossed them right in jail for 90 days. (Maybe it was 180 days?). Once they got out, the guys left Detroit never to be seen again. If these two local guys turn out to be guilty, then they should be tossed right in jail. If I owned a building and caught somebody vandalizing it, they'd sure wish they had been in jail instead of my custody.
lefty48197
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 4:46 p.m.
I've read an awful lot of articles about the graffiti problems in Ann Arbor, Barb. Catching them is one thing. Punishing them enough so that they'll never consider doing this again is an entirely different matter. It's the latter that I don't think will be stressed enough.
Barb
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 9:29 p.m.
If you knew how much time and resources was spent on catching taggers, you wouldn't think that.
buildergirl
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 8:38 p.m.
If they admit responsibility and receive community service it would be great to seize the social media opportunities and spread the word to the other "taggers" aka lame wanna be graffiti "artists" of suburbia that this is really stupid; an action not worth the consequences. What if they roll on Clams, Hash and Raw for a plea? Awesome. Now can we go after the couple with the gun who tried to rob a home the other night? Or some other dangerous criminal?
Jennifer Loesel
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 8:34 p.m.
there's another "SAES" tag on the abandoned building at n. division and detroit st.
Connor
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 2:53 a.m.
Shouldn't matter at that location, its being developed in the next few months. gonna get tron down soon. http://www.annarbor.com/neighborhoods/um-campus/3-story-development-on-detroit-street-wins-approval-from-ann-arbor-planning-commission/
jeanarrett
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 8:32 p.m.
SAES also defaced at least one of the parking pay stations at 350 South Main by using something to scratch SAES onto the glass on the face of the screen.
lefty48197
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 4:43 p.m.
That's gotta be at least a couple of hundred more dollars in damage.
Hi McDonnough
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 8:31 p.m.
It's not just paint. These kids scratch their names into things like glass. How many of the parking terminals have SAES scratched on the surface?
lefty48197
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 4:42 p.m.
Citizens should be reporting any instance of the vandals' criminal activity. If we could locate ten or twenty or thirty more instances of vandalism by these guys, then they could just pile on more and more charges, more and more penalties, and more and more restitution. I say bury these guys under a mountain of debt if it turns out they're guilty.
Bonsai
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 8:21 p.m.
"He screwed up the whole town." Glad to see everyone is maintaining perspective.
justcary
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 8:18 p.m.
HOOOORAYYYYY These kids have been caught! I hope the Juvenile Court judge sends a strong message, in the form of a huge cash fine and jail time, to other taggers that blighting our buildings and our town will not be tolerated.
a2xarob
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 8:13 p.m.
I am very disappointed they will not be put to cleaning up graffiti. For some of these kids a tether is a badge of honor. A pail of water and a rag, not so much. I would like to see consequences that the kids would not like to see repeated. How does this keep happening here?
John Counts
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 5:19 p.m.
a2xarob: You're welcome. Court proceedings sometimes get very complicated, especially when they involve juveniles.
a2xarob
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 10:45 p.m.
Yes, Mr. Foobar, I did read the article, and I have re-read it, and I don't see that anywhere in it. But I do thank Mr. Counts for clarifying in his later post.
foobar417
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 10:16 p.m.
You did read the article right? They haven't been found responsible yet. Hence, no punishment yet. This is just "pre-trial detention".
lefty48197
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 8:51 p.m.
Judges and prosecutors who are soft on crime, THAT'S how it keeps happening around here.
a2citizen
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 8:07 p.m.
We use to call this punishment getting grounded.
Connor
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 2:45 a.m.
...and then being forced to clean it up by your parents.
djacks24
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 8:04 p.m.
If their goal was to get famous via local media(2nd article today accompanied by a dozen photo examples of their "tag")....Mission accomplished.
texaswede
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 8:03 p.m.
I am not excusing them, but they are kids. Yes, stupid kids. But kids. Undisciplined ones. Let us hope this brings a bit of sense to them. All of you advising and wishing for harsher punishment should think back to your own stupid acts in adolescence. We all did something not so sensible.
Usual Suspect
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 1:07 p.m.
Thanks, texasweed, but no, most of us never did naughty things that cost other people thousands of dollars to reverse.
dotdash
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 9:06 p.m.
True enough, texaswede. I did stupid self-centered things, including spray painting things that did not belong to me. Where you have adolescents, you'll have stupid self-centered behavior. That doesn't excuse it, of course, and the downtown businesses have a right to be angry. I still feel bad about things I painted 30 years ago. Sorry, hometown...
lefty48197
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 8:50 p.m.
Not all of our "not so sensible" actions resulted in $100,000 in damage.
JRW
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 8:31 p.m.
Sure, lots of us did stupid things as adolescents. But how many of us engaged in criminal, malicious, destructive acts of vandalism? Big difference between something stupid, not so sensible, and something criminal.
getagrip
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 7:55 p.m.
No mercy, they or their parents must pay,even if it takes years. These are community criminals,they attack our entire community, ruin personal property, and post it as if they should be proud of it.Remember the Library still sponsors the grafitti art competition with our tax money every art fair, they need to stop that now! Community service if it comes to it, should be very long and oriented to removing grafitti.
Usual Suspect
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 1:04 p.m.
"I too am tired to lawless punks ruining this once great city." I am, too, but why did you bring the Mayor and City Council into this discussion?
Balthazar Tarantula
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 1:58 a.m.
it's out of a parent's control what personal decisions their kid makes in their free time. punishing the parents would be very ill directed
lefty48197
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 8:49 p.m.
Amen sir. I too am tired to lawless punks ruining this once great city. It's time to take it back by any means necessary!
justaposter
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 7:52 p.m.
Thank God they were finally busted. It's been so frustrating to see them deface things all over town, including the new State St bridge within DAYS of it being completed. Hope they are hit hard with a well-earned punishment.
justaposter
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 1:03 p.m.
"But I'm going to assume your (you're) speaking of the Stadium blvd bridges." Yes Connor, the bridge is the Stadium bridge of course, but they tagged the part on State St.
Connor
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 2:40 a.m.
FYI There is no "new State St. bridge". But I'm going to assume your speaking of the Stadium blvd bridges.
John Counts
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 7:48 p.m.
These court orders are not part of sentencing. They are orders the two juveniles have to abide by while going through the judicial process. They have not been found "responsible" or admitted "responsibility," the equivalent of being found guilty or entering a guilty plea in juvenile court. Only after that takes place will there be a "disposition," or sentencing.
Doug
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 7:44 p.m.
Give them hours of cleaning up the city whereever it is needed. 40 hours = 1 week of work x 4 would send them a message. Incarceration would be inappropriate!
Giarc
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 8:39 p.m.
Someone would file suit for cruel and unusual punishment.
clownfish
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 7:42 p.m.
"Not only are they vandals, but horrible artists", Best comment. Full monetary restitution and community service, lots of it, like 2000 hours.
Lewis Colon
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 3:28 p.m.
@Gramma - Yes, if they were good/creative, there are shared spaces where tag artists can express themselves (admittedly, not enough). There IS some serious ART out there which these two did not "represent".
Gramma
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 1:09 p.m.
Right? If they were creative artists, it would be alright.
leezee
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 7:41 p.m.
So pleased they are doing something about this. Perhaps part of their community service should be a required number of hours speaking to other teens about how much they loved being under house arrest and tethered, how happy their parents were and, really, how much this kind of thing was not worth it.
Sue
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 5:40 p.m.
Are you kidding, kids these days are proud and brag about it when they get into trouble with the law. They wear it as a badge of honor if they serve time in juvi or jail because that makes them appear tougher. Just like they wear their pants hanging down below their underwear like prisoners. It seems the role models kids like these choose to look up to are ex-cons, and this whole ghetto mentality is destroying our neighborhoods. These "boys" need a huge wake-up call, not a little slap on the wrist. What our society needs is to invest in are prisons for the wanna-be gangsters and hoodlums under the age of 20 who commit felonies. And retribution, restitution, hard manual labor and community service are included as part of their sentences, as well as counseling in hopes of rehabilitation.
ms24
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 4:18 p.m.
Best comment! They should have to face their peers over and over again and be honest about what happened to them because of what they did.
Momma G
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 7:38 p.m.
Sure hope they end up doing their time in prison and are made to reimburse everyone for their attempts to have their graffiti cleaned up. I think their names should be printed on AnnArbor.com also. Who cares if their 15 & 16. They committed felonies!
Balthazar Tarantula
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 1:55 a.m.
lol, do you honestly want a 15 and 16 year old to go to prison for doing graffiti? thats laughable
Barb
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 9:24 p.m.
Um, because they're not adults?
a2citizen
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 9:18 p.m.
John, public shaming might prevent future occurances.
lefty48197
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 8:47 p.m.
Next question: Why WOULDN'T they be charged as adults? Unless, the judge & prosecutor don't believe in punishing criminals properly that is.
John Counts
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 7:49 p.m.
We do not print the names of juveniles unless they have been charged as adults.
Elaine F. Owsley
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 7:36 p.m.
And the people all said "Amen to that!!"
David Cahill
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 7:35 p.m.
The potential fines and imprisonment in the article only apply for adults, which these young people are not. They are in juvenile court, where community service and restitution are realistically the penalties. It's great that house arrest, night surveillance, and tethers are being used.
Nicholas Urfe
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 7:33 p.m.
That sentence is absolutely nothing. I think those kids will be laughing at it. Especially as time goes on. They'll look back and joke about how it wasn't even a wrist slap.
Raising a Family and Working in A2
Wed, May 1, 2013 : 11:56 a.m.
Nicholas, word is that the ankle tether is often considered a source of pride while wearing it to school. You are absolutely correct, it is considered an exciting passage to becoming a legend. Some adult will pay the fine. As far as community service, Ann Arbor would have to hire someone to watch their every-community-service-move because there is no remorse for the behavior. The focus is on the frustration of being caught.
Nicholas Urfe
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 2:32 a.m.
Thanks for the clarification. I'll put away my torch - for now. And the pitchfork.
halflight
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 10:54 p.m.
It's not a sentence, it's a pretrial order. Referee Altenburg placed conditions on their release to their parents. As pretrial orders for juveniles go, these are pretty strict. These kids aren't going anywhere until these charges are resolved.
ThinkingOne
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 9:10 p.m.
What sentence? Since the article says 'accused of' and 'the charges include' I am assuming they are just under house arrest until trial. I am pretty sure that I didn't miss anything saying they had been convicted.
jackson west
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 7:35 p.m.
Nicolas, while I agree with you in part, we should not slap these kids or beat them. Its unamerican.
Ruth
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 7:31 p.m.
How come they don't have to clean it up?
jns131
Wed, May 1, 2013 : 1:24 a.m.
Are they going to appeal the community service as the other two youths in that other crime going to do? This is just so wrong. Do the time, clean up the community. So sad.
John Counts
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 5:10 p.m.
Their sentencing has not been decided. This is just the beginning of the legal process. A judge or referee could conceivably order them to clean it up as part of community service.
Bobby
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 4:51 p.m.
Contrary to whatever Balthazar believes. They pay Restitution to those businesses that prosecute. The restitution is money owed to the victim to clean up the damage done.
EyeHeartA2
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 2:57 p.m.
@grimmk; I happen to agree, but that isn't what the OP stated.
Gramma
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 1:06 p.m.
it's too logical
grimmk
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 6:57 a.m.
EyeHeartA2 - why stop at just their own tags? They should be out there every weekend for a YEAR cleaning up and painting over someone else's. Also picking up trash. And then have to write letters to business they vandalized apologizing.
EyeHeartA2
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 2:46 a.m.
ummmmm, because somebody else already did. Did you read the article?
Balthazar Tarantula
Tue, Apr 30, 2013 : 1:52 a.m.
because our court system is based on punishment and money, not common sense and positive change
jackson west
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 7:30 p.m.
I think that their sentence should have a whole lot of community service. Especailly for service agencies that specialize in removin g paint. Because this sort of behavior is not to be tolerated! We're the State of Michigan, and these shenanegains are total bush league nonsense. I hope that they have to work in a soup kitchen, so they can see what real poverty is.
Brad
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 7:30 p.m.
Looks like there will be a slot opening up at Community.
Ricardo Queso
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 9:50 p.m.
And another student for Ann Arbor Tech.
Arborcomment
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 8:49 p.m.
Honor graduate: Artistic Expressions Class?
lefty48197
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 8:45 p.m.
That is funny. Where can the parents of the good children apply for that open slot?
towncryer
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 7:51 p.m.
LOL, too funny!
antikvetch
Mon, Apr 29, 2013 : 7:28 p.m.
Methinks the two young gentlemen are about discover the meaning of "not so funny now, is it?"
Stan Hyne
Sun, May 5, 2013 : 4:36 a.m.
They wanted to be noticed and famous. Looks like they made their mark on the world.
jns131
Wed, May 1, 2013 : 1:22 a.m.
There is room in Milan for these two. Think Kwame can teach these two a thing or two on how to try to get away with crime?