Nurses union at U-M hospitals asked for 'major concessions' as contract ends Thursday
The University of Michigan Health System and a 4,000-member nurses union have until Thursday to agree on a new contract — and key differences remain.
UMHS is asking nurses for “major concessions” in benefits while it spends millions of dollars on new buildings, the union bargaining for nurses said a statement on the contract negotiations released today.
Tony Denton, the chief operating officer of U-M Hospitals and Health Centers, said in a statement U-M has asked the union for an increase cost-sharing for members' health care benefits, which has already occurred among other groups of U-M employees.
"Similar changes have already been made for non-union faculty and staff, and in other U-M labor contracts that have come up for negotiation during the past three years," Denton said in a statement today.
The current contract for nurses who belong to the University of Michigan Professional Nurse Council was ratified in 2008 and expires June 30. The two sides have been negotiating a new contract since April.
University of Michigan Health System photo
John Karebian, the executive director of the Michigan Nurses Association, the collective bargaining representative for UMPNC, said in a statement there are no plans for a strike as of today.
After June 30, “decisions will be made by both parties on the progress of the negotiations,” he said.
Points of contention include health insurance, retirement, overtime and paid time off usage.
One issue for the union is the amount U-M is spending on new buildings, Karebian said.
“Currently, this employer is spending millions of dollars on huge building projects and then making up for their budget issues by asking the nurses for major concessions in benefits and the way nurses determine how best to provide for their patients,” Karebian’s statement says.
UMHS faces a difficult budget, with two massive undertakings, including a new children and women's hospital, projected to squeeze the UMHS finances into the red by $23.5 million in the fiscal year that begins July 1.
The new children and women's hospital, scheduled to open in November, and the first phase of MiChart, a new information technology system for U-M clinical care and billing mean a negative operating margin after 15 years of gains, Doug Strong, the chief executive officer of U-M Hospitals and Health Centers, told the U-M Board of Regents June 16. The regents approved the $2.1 billion UMHS budget at that meeting.
Members of the union include staff nurses and advanced practice nurses such as nurse practitioners, nurse anesthetists and certified nurse midwives.
Juliana Keeping covers general assignment and health and the environment for AnnArbor.com. Reach her at julianakeeping@annarbor.com or 734-623-2528. Follow Juliana Keeping on Twitter
Comments
jim
Mon, Sep 5, 2011 : 6:04 a.m.
You have got to be kidding me! The Nurses at the UofM are the Most highly compensated nurses in our region. The benefits package they get is of much greater value than ANY other hospital in the region.. Many units have great shift differential and overtime pay. The 401K match is also unparalled, for every dollar the employees contribute the hospital contrbutes another dollar...at a very high limit...So, to all the belly achin nurses, if you don't like it at the UofM move on...so other nurses in the area can get a job there... The complainers need to work for what other nurses in our area work for...then appreciate the packages and benefits you get at the U...
Ann Arbor guy
Thu, Jun 30, 2011 : 5:33 a.m.
First of all...unless you work as a nurse, how would you even begin to know what we do or the abuse we put up with. I don't judge other profession's salaries or how demanding their job is. Ulness you walk in their shoes....don't judge. When you pay better and offer better working conditions, obviously a better group of nurses you will attract. We have very special skills at UofM the NO OTHER group of nurses in the state has. As a patient, wouldn't you want a top quality nurse at your bedside running your life support equipment, your heart/lung bypass circuit?? If you don't care, then head to some of the other institutions in the area. As for the $85,000 a year. Unless you are at THE TOP of the payscale at UofM (which there are NOT that many!) $85,000 is not usually the case. You can make that as a newer nurse IF you work a LOT of overtime. Again...unless you walk in our shoes, don't judge!
Philip Santini
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 6:54 p.m.
@SatisfiedRN-P.O.T.U.S salary =$400,000. Less than the two UMHS administrator salaries I posted. So they have greater responsibilities and longer working hours than our elected president? And they can justify these outrageous salaries while at the same time asking others making far less to make sacrifices? Some convoluted logic here. And please show some numbers regarding your salary being more than most other RN's in the area.
John B.
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 9:59 p.m.
"And please show some numbers regarding your salary being more than most other RN's in the area." He can't, because he's not an RN.
Townie
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 6:11 p.m.
It is interesting to see how the Republican union and public sector bashing (and bashing and hate for gays, immigrants, Muslims, etc.) has led to everyone focussing on how 'overpaid' the middle class is. 'Divide and conquer' is working very well for the Republicans who are working hard only for corporations and the wealthy while pretending to be interested in the middle class. They aren't. They will stop government to prevent any fixing of the enormous holes in our tax system for the wealthy while middle class wages have stagnated for 2 decades. Even letting the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy expire is too much for them; they want to cut all the middle class friendly 'entitlements' (great word selection by them) and save the wealthy and corporate breaks. The deficit would be way less if those idiotic tax cuts were allowed to expire (the tax cuts and two unfunded wars created the deficit in the first place!). Amazing how many middle class people have fallen for this and are out trying to dismantle the last vestiges of the middle class. Talk about voting against your own best interests.
John B.
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 9:58 p.m.
Precisely! Well said. Unfortunately, facts are a waste of time where the right-wing wackos are concerned. Faux Noise proves that every day....
Rebecca
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 6:05 p.m.
I am a nurse at the University of Michigan. I love the job! I orginially started working at a hospital nearby and when I cam to the University I didn't want to be a part of the Union. After working here for a year I realized why we needed a Union. Nurse do back breaking work. I probably don't take a lunch more than once per year. This is not a whine. This is part of my job and my dedication for what I do. One must walk in our shoes to know the level of knowledge and skill that is required to do this job. We are nursing professionals! I would hope the University of Michigan realizes that professional's = respect and integrity. The reason that we are 11th in the nation is not just via the physicians in this institution. It is also the skilled nursing care that we provide. Almost every nurse I work with states that the reason we have stayed here is because of the golden handcuffs. Our benefits are reasonable and it makes putting up with parking issues and high stress worth while. We are a dedicated profession for patient's. Many institutions pay their nurses more than nurses at the University get paid. But we have been willing to stay because we believe in the institution and the job we do. Anyone who thinks we are over paid should put themselves in a situation that you hope a top notch educated and trained professional nurse is taking care of you or your family when you are critically ill. We are not asking for anything more than to support the contract that is already in place. We are not asking for or demanding lucrative pay raises. But I know a high ranking officer of the University just got a 30% raise! Ironic is it? Proud of being a NURSING PROFESSIONAL!
SatisfiedRN
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 5:49 p.m.
For me, the administrative salaries are not enough to assume the responsibilities they have or work the hours they do. I have an optimal work/life balance while maintaining a very decent wage, one that is more than most other RNs in this area. I can take 4-6 weeks of vacation a year, with minimal required OT. I am one member of a team who does NOT do all the work. My union peers must recognize that if you are willing to talk the talk, you must be willing to walk the walk. I am concerned that not enough of my peers will not be able to walk the walk, but will continue to be vocal and under-appreciative of the big picture. Just my thoughts.
John B.
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 9:55 p.m.
SRN: I believe you are a plant. There is no way to know who you are.
mtlaurel
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 6:07 p.m.
what exactly are you talking about? what is the big picture you are seeing? what is it that Nurses are failing at that their issues up for discussion are not valid. Nurses should use their collective voice..why are you against that while insurers want to control health care..Do you think that is how it should go and caregivers have less role? for profit health care seems to be what you advocate. I would not want you for a nurse.
mtlaurel
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 5:31 p.m.
"hiring nurses at a vastly reduced pay scale" You seriously think that is going to reduce your health care cost? You are joking, right? or, let's get a quote from your insurance company that premiums will now be reduced because the nurses salaries are now being cut.
?? ?
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 5:27 p.m.
I am an RN. I work at the U. I have been there for a long time. I am very upset at the U.
Sciomanone1
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 5:21 p.m.
This is interesting, I have not ever seen so many people write and give a comment about anything like this ever before, wow there are also of u of m Medical people that are not happy and alot of nurses.
Christy Summerfield
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 5:20 p.m.
I believe the quality of the nursing staff and their working conditions are more important than new buildings. Nurses work incredibly hard, often long hours, often getting called in the middle of the night. Yes, they are paid well, but I believe fairly. During the times I've been hospitalized, my nurses have been far more important to my care, recovery & general well-being than any docs. I don't want overworked, tired nurses caring for me anymore than I want a doctor who's been on duty for 48hrs+ operating on me. Good nursing can go a very long way toward making up for any building inadequacies. Consider primitive clinics in third world countries for example. I support the nurses 100%.
xmo
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 4:24 p.m.
There are no Labor Unions on strike in the United States for some reason right now? If the present U of M nurses go out on strike, U of M could hire new nurses at a vastly reduce pay scale and make Health Care more Affordable for ALL! Sounds good to me!
Rebecca
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 6:39 p.m.
Nursing is hoping that we will not go on strike. Do you really think we want to go on strike! Think again! But don't think because nursing is the way that you are going to give big raises to other's and build the 2nd most expensive building ever built in Michigan via hard earned wages of nurses. I am the sole income for my family. I make a reasonable and trust me not excessive wage! Let's cut your salary, Take away your benefits and see how you respond. Our contract and pay is visible let's look at yours.
Philip Santini
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 4:49 p.m.
Another comment, another comedian. If you're asking if there are currently any union strikes in the US the answer is yes-Rite Aid workers in Ohio.
Mick52
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 3:47 p.m.
I lost hope for hospital employees when Ora Pescovitz was appointed. Per the MI Daily salary supp pay for 2010 is $721,000, up $21,000 from 2009. Doug Strong in 2010: $600,000 up $54000 from 2009. That is just base pay, I suppose there are extras. Probably get a free parking space too. I guess the reason is what they could make in the private sector. If anyone knows what skills these two possess that no one who would occupy that job for half those amounts do not, I would like to know. How can you ask for cutbacks when you do this? Go work in the private sector.
K
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 2:54 p.m.
It's true that nurses can make a respectable salary, but in order to support myself and my two daughters, that respectable salary comes by working overtime and TWO nursing jobs. I have spent the last ten years in the ICU, and I EARN my money. I DESERVE my money. I willl work a twelve hour shift without a lunch. I will stay over the end of my shift if my patient isn't doing well. I will spend the day at my patient's bedside because they are too sick for me to leave the room. I will be a resource for my patient, the doctor, the rest of the medical staff. I will counsel and support my patient's family. I will take care of a dialysis machine, and a wall of IV pumps, while adjusting blood pressure medicine and giving blood. I will do this while on a stretcher in the hallway while the patient is moved to the CT scanner. I will do all these things because the patient comes first and because I have chosen this profession. I am proud of being a nurse. Patient's have survived the day because of decisions I make. If a patient is crashing in the ICU, it is the NURSE who drives the care. A smart, resourceful nurse knows the patient, understands what might be happening, and has some understanding of how to fix it. Then we work with the docs to solve the problem. My bosses makes two, three times my salary and couldn't begin to do what I do. Unless you have done my job, it is not fair to tell me wether I am overpaid or not. I wouldn't assume that you are overpaid for what you do. Come to the ICU for a day. Come dressed in plastic and spend the 12 hour day in a room that is 100 degrees because the patient can't maintain their body temperature. Don't bother bringing a lunch because you probably won't get to eat it. In fact, don't drink because you probably won't be able to leave the room to pee either. And come prepared to critically think, because each decision you make is a decision that can affect someone's life.
Philip Santini
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 1:56 p.m.
Anthony Denton COO UMHS 2009 Salary- $387,660 2010 Salary- $425,000 Increase - $37,340 (~10%) Douglas L. Strong CEO UMHS 2009 Salary - $546,363 2010 Salary- $600,000 Increase - $53,637 (~10%) And UMHS wants concessions from its nursing staff?
SatisfiedRN
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 3:12 p.m.
That is still not enough money for me to do what they do. I make a very decent wage that allows my work to stay at work, and allows me the flexibility to acheive the balance I need. What frustrates me though, is that my peer working next to me, doing 1/3 of what I do, with multiple med errors, and attendance issues, can still make 20% more than what I do. My union does not allow anything to be done about that.
Patrice
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 1:50 p.m.
People could we all just get the facts straight before harping on issues???? yes employees have to pay for parking.......so do employees at a few other hospitals like Robertwood Johnson Hospital of New Jersey which has a medical and dental school attached to it. yes the nurses union can be good and bad. the union keeps RN to patient ratios down so that the RNs can actually care for their patients. Bad part sometimes it helps keep RNs that need different jobs. Not every person that makes it through the schooling is cut out to be a RN. yes sometimes RNs are cranky at work. Everyone is allowed a bad day aren't they? Sometimes, patients treat even the nicest RN like total crap. Sometimes, the emotional load of the RN due to a really sick patient not doing well causes crankiness to be brought with the RN to another room. How would you like someone yelling at you because a doctor gave them bad news and you were the next person in front of them. The doctors, medics, clerks, nurses aides, and students all get to walk away. The RN has to stand there and try to explain as best they can. Some times we all need to remember we are just human beings trying to make a living. Remember a RN has to go through specialized training. I don't see complaints about the Engineering unions. A RN makes money cleaning wounds others would puke at the smell of. An Rn makes money putting up with sexual comments from patients. An RN makes money doing lifting of the most obese patients this state has. An RN makes money scrubbing the blood and grim off injuries other faint at the sight of. RN have one of the most emotionally draining and physically demanding jobs there is. whether you have been an RN for a year or 30 years, most have good hearts and are in it to take care of the patients that need them. a few bad apples does not mean we take from the good ones. There is rarely a job out there that feels I make exactly what I should. Keep that in mind when you judge others.
tim
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 1:18 p.m.
If hospitals can't afford health insurance who can ? Time for universal health care, this country is almost paying double what the rest of the industrialized world is paying for health care.
mtlaurel
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 1:09 p.m.
maybe it's time the Nurses strike. enough with the silly comparisons to Starbucks workers and the like. As the Nurses leave the institution and lesser trained workers are hired to run your aging relative's IV lines, read pharmacutical orders, understand complications and side effects of serious illnesses, and when to page the Doctor, it'll get unsafe enough for people to ask questions. A strike prevents the chaos from being laid on the population, and that is what will happen.
BioWheels
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 12:36 p.m.
So let me see if I've got this correct. First we attack teachers and state employees and pass legislation to increase the taxes of senior citizens and working families. Then we force them to pay more for their benefits, meanwhile the legislators in this state get benefits for life after one term of service. Then we give corporations tax breaks, thanks to Governor Snyder. We still have one of the highest paid state legislators in the country. Now we want to attack the wages and benefits of nurses and others represented by the nurses union. Who will be under the axe next? How about the pre-school and child care employees that are so overpaid? Let's get real and start by reducing the salaries of all the overpaid administrators, doctors, and state representatives and get back to what this state and country are all about - a fair wage for a days work. Maybe we'll look back in few years and wonder where all of the educators and hospital staff have gone, as they make their way to a state that actually values their contributions to society. Who will be left to educate our children and take care of our sick?
Rebecca
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 6:50 p.m.
Your thoughts are very accurate! The median age of most nurses is 50 years of age. Many of us have the years of service to retire but cannot afford to retire related to health care benefits and our retirement fund. But legislators have the one term of office and have full health benefits for life! Police officers and firemen are bankrupting cities which is the only way they can keep from paying full salaries during their retirement. Nurses at the University do not have a pension. We pay into our retirement fund. We don't have full compensation after we retire. A nursing shortage will happen when the aging nursing population retire. Trust me you don't want to be sick when we no longer have enough nurses to do the care that patient's need. University nurses take care of the sickest patients in the state. When other institutions can no longer care for the patient they are transferred here. For top notch care. Acuity runs high. Make nursing an unfavorable profession to practice in and the young nursing students will change their major. Why would you want to join a profession that is not respected and is so easily pushed under the bus.
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 1:35 p.m.
"Who will be left to educate our children and take care of our sick?" RepubliKans. Good Night and Good Luck
Tony Dearing
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 11:55 a.m.
Comments have been removed because they violated our conversation guidelines. You are welcome to disagree with other commenters as vigorously as you care to, but we ask you not to resort to insults, name-calling or personal attacks.
Lac Court Orilles
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 11:23 a.m.
We can all expect SLICK RICK and his gang of REPUBLICANS to join in the attack on middle class nurses because they have created a feeding frenzy on anyone belonging to a union. Oh yes, and of course there will be a lump of gold for all those high paid executives to receive after they get the concessions they want. Middle class people need to vote all of these REPUBLICANS out of office and increase the corporate income tax in Michigan to 8% so the wealthy few in our state can share in the sacrifice too.
alnan
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 6:19 a.m.
After 40 + years employmentat the University Health system, I would like to suggest if you think you have a shortage of nurses now just wait til this irresponsible contract goes into fact. There will be a grand exit of nurses from your institution. Please Administration give some serious thought to modifying this contract.. Iworked through many episodes like this in the past and probably would not do so again. But retirement benefits do not seem to keep up enough to give us a non worry retirment and could ill afford these types of non benefits proposed. And yes,, I paid for parking all of those years also!!
Stuart Brown
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 6:12 a.m.
What has not been mentioned here is any discussion of the building boom going on at UofM. UofM will spend more than $60 million rehabbing my old dorm--Alice Lloyd; in other words, more than $100,000 per bed for a crappy old dorm first built in 1949. This building has no historical significance and has no special features and should probably just be torn down and replaced with something new at the same or less cost. I am very concerned that the reason UofM spends such an excessive amount on buildings is due to payola going into the pockets of UoM officials in charge of the projects in one shape or form. I simply do not see how the public is being minded here. The people running UofM are repugnant and are deficient in so many ways if a meteor the size of the one that took out the dinosaurs 65 millions years ago landed dead square on the UofM Presidents house, I'd be tempted to think it was a miracle delivered from the heavens.
mohomed
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 2:13 a.m.
I have a liberal arts degree in women's studies and the only job I could find after college was at a Starbucks where I'm now an assistant shift supervisor and make about $28,000 a year. My "benefits" are horrible too. Who do these nurses think they are asking for more when people like me are just as educated as them and have just a much responsibility. I would love to see a nurse work a morning shift at my Starbucks and take special coffee orders under pressure.
John B.
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 9:49 p.m.
Trolling should be censored by aa.com.
Fredric
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 9:28 p.m.
Hate to say it but you better wake up and join society. Who is going to take care of you when you burn yourself and have to go to the ER? Who is going to take care of the cut whey you hurt yourself cutting a muffin/ These people are very specialized and know how to handle pressure. My wife has now retired but after 41 years as an ER nurse,II think she can tell you something about pressure. What did you expect to do with your degree, I congratulate you on obtaining your Degree, but, realistically, what type of jobs have been in the job market for this for the past 15 to 20 years. 1 Sorry
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 1:36 p.m.
Gee, I see that A2.com left its sense of humor home today!! Well, to repeat the gist of my deleted post, I'm betting that mohomed is being sarcastic. At least, I certainly hope that is the case. Good Night and Good Luck
Philip Santini
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 11:36 a.m.
Have you considered a job as a comedian?
RedwearerRN
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 7:27 a.m.
mohomed, every order I take is a special order, for a special person. I am constantly & consistantly under pressure that my patients don't well, DIE! Not that they'd be dissatisfied with a coffee. I have done your job, I worked at Beaner's now Biggby's, have done those "special coffee orders under pressure". That was the single most mindless, moronic job I have ever had. My advice to you mohomed is this, go back to school, get a real degree in something that you can make a living in. I did, I work the in the best career there is. I am a nurse. You have no clue what nurses do, and I promise your responsiblities are vastly different than mine. Your comparison is like comparing apples to batteries.
nowayjose
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 4:41 a.m.
Sounds like a fitting job with a liberal arts degree in women's studies. Your comparison is so laughable. What line of work did you expect with that degree. Lol, Starbucks. I can't stop laughing.
eagleman
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 4:04 a.m.
Your mistake was getting a degree in Women's Studies. What exactly can you do with that? Teach Women's Studies? I have a degree in Journalism and I am a stockkeeper at a hospital. I pity you not.
proudnurse
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 2:25 a.m.
Absolutely! Because if you mess up mixing up a latte, your customer gets pissed off....If I mess up mixing up a drug, my patient dies! Totally the same thing!
Mush Room
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 2:03 a.m.
Northern Michigan Hospital in Petoskey may be a consideration here. This is a large regional hospital. Nurses voted to organize but the hospital refused to recognize the union. The nurses struck, but the hospital countered by hiring scabs. It worked. The strike lasted years, but eventually the nurses voted to decertify their union. If Northern Michigan Hospital can bust a union by hiring scabs, I see no reason why UofM Hospital couldn't do the exact same thing. It's a negotiating process but management always has the upper hand.
CincoDeMayo
Sun, Jul 3, 2011 : 3:31 a.m.
Scabs are ugly. But nurses know how to take care of them...
David Paris
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 12:04 p.m.
Thanks for the heads-up on the Petoskey hospital, I will now avoid it at all cost.
eagleman
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 4:52 a.m.
Image, not imagine.
eagleman
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 4:30 a.m.
UM is a different animal. It is located in uber-liberal Ann Arbor. Can you imagine the furor if this paragon of liberal virtue were to attempt to break a union? Michigan is hypersensitive about its imagine and how it relates to liberal values. It is a school that is very much concerned about projecting an imagine that reveres liberal interpretations of diversity and social justice. Going Harry Bennett on an nursing union is not their style. Plus, the school is flush with cash. Just look at all the construction projects that are going on midst the worst economy in 60 years.
Angry Moderate
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 1:55 a.m.
Obviously, the nursing salaries are ALREADY high enough to convince people to go into nursing. That is why there is a waiting list for classes. Raising salaries further when there are already more people trying to become nurses than we are able to educate is nonsensical. I'm not even sure what you're trying to debate with me anymore; you're making obvious statements that don't respond to my points. Good night & good luck to you.
CincoDeMayo
Sun, Jul 3, 2011 : 3:29 a.m.
The pay is finally approaching a reasonable amount to help provide for a family. You can tell by how men are now more often looking at it as a career option. It is still a tremendous amount of work for the compensation, but getting closer to what men would work for, interestingly.
David Paris
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 11:50 a.m.
"Raising salaries further when there are already more people trying to become nurses than we are able to educate is nonsensical" Let's stick with the facts, nobody is talking about raising wages for nurses, not that they wouldn't deserve it, but your statement is flat out wrong.
citizen kane
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 1:54 a.m.
the sooner we can get rid of the union the better.
macjont
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 7:06 p.m.
Yes, let us all race back to the 19th century or to life as it is in Mississippi or Alabama. What a wonderful world!
stunhsif
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 1:48 a.m.
First off what are the benefit concessions they are asking for ? Ex wife works at St. Joe's (non union nurses) , they are bleeding red ink and employees have taken 5% paycuts and suffered massive layoffs across the board from clerks to nurses. Percentage of indigent payors/customers has skyrocketed no doubt due to the economy. Bankrupcy and restructure in bennie's for GM and Chrysler workers is impacting hospitals in southeastern Michigan dramatically, this is not just a U of M issue. U of M is own worst enemy as noted in above article. Nurses are worth every dime they make in pay. I have no problem with a 25 year nurse making 85K a year. Ex wife made more than that without an advanced degree at St. Joes but she was damn good and still is at what she does. The problem with many hospitals is they gave away the farm when the times were good. Ex wife does have 6 weeks of paid vacation and copays that would make all jealous except for a union public school teacher. I did a stint in the hospital at St. Joes five years ago. Was in the hospital for 5 days ( no surgery) and all it cost me was 250 dollars for a 40 grand stay under the ex wife's insurance. Cost wise today under my lousy blue cross plan would cost me over 5 grand for the same stay. During my stay I would say my care from the nurses was excellent, most were very caring ( the younger ones especially) , some were not very communicative and rather grumpy ( the older ones) . My father is a physician, works full time and has for 53 years. Not a surgeon but is a specialist,also teaches medical students at a prominent university in this area. He says specialists make too much money but also says the government does nothing but screw things up when it comes to medical care. My father is not in it for the money, he could have made three times what he makes had he been a surgeon. Nurses earn their pay, they may have to give a bit on the bennie's and copays. Nurses should make more than teachers, period!
eom
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 1:36 a.m.
Let me get this straight: Teachers make too much money. Firefighters make too much money. Police officers make too much money. Nurses make too much money. Wow. Anyone else? Personally, I think education is tremendously important and value our teachers. If my house catches on fire, I'd really like someone to show up and save my house, my dog, my husband and myself. When I'm robbed, I look to the police for help and feel secure in my town when I see them on patrol. When I'm sick and in the hospital, I spend the most time with the nurses. They explain things, spend time with me and take care of me. Call me old fashioned, but I appreciate ALL of these people and think they should be paid a fair wage. I'm so sad that people turn on each other and want to take people down...it's a sad state of affairs.
CincoDeMayo
Sun, Jul 3, 2011 : 3:21 a.m.
Here's to you eom!!!
eom
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 6:02 p.m.
Really? That's your opinion of people? If you give them 100% more, they'd just come back and want more. Huh. Well, no matter what anyone says, you have shut down and won't hear anything reasonable or otherwise. That's just silly, and ridiculous. JohnB has hit the nail on the head - the goal is to have all of us fight one another while those with money and power keep taking...they don't care, they will have them money for private schools, private nursing, private police and the like. I am hoping there are more people out there who will fight for each other instead of WITH each other...here's hoping.
John B.
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 4:40 p.m.
eom: Attacking the middle class is a primary plank in the RepubliKan platform. It makes a great distraction while they pillage our once-great nation to further enrich themselves and their richest constituents. If people continue to be stupid enough to continue voting for RepubliKan candidates, this is a trend that will accelerate even further.
Angry Moderate
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 2:06 a.m.
"Fair" does not mean "more." If they got a 100% raise this year, they would be back complaining again next year.
AAbob43
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 1:28 a.m.
Atticus--My wife has worked at a major medical center in Michigan since 1980 (and a few years before with a break) She advises that a comparison be made between the physical and mental labor expended by physicians versus nurses, and comparing the pay. Also, when a profession warrants greater risk (be it dangerous construction or nursing) it carries higher pay. If a teacher misplaces a decimal point, no big. if a nurse does so, someone dies. Nurses are air traffic controllers by the bedside for sick patients. Many work 12 hour shifts. My wife has also been a professor of nursing at Wayne State and MSU. Nursing faculty are significantly underpaid relative to other faculty, and this has held down the number of nurses who can be trained. Also, the number of clinical sites are a factor, because nurses in training need knowledgeable and safe places to receive clinical training. Thus, the number of such clinical sites in an area can limit the number of nurses who can be trained. Now, granted, this is only coming from someone who has been in nursing in Michigan continuously since 1972. What would she know?
Angry Moderate
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 1:36 a.m.
100% correct about the lacking facilities for nursing education. We underestimated the future demand for healthcare when those facilities and programs were designed.
UtrespassM
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 1:19 a.m.
How much is paid a start-up nurse? 40K? or 80? Recently, I was hospitalized twice. Actually, I don't known what the duties a nurse are. There are nurse assistants, nursing school students every where in the hospital,they do a lot of things for the nurses. The real nurse was doing nothing but giving me the medications. When I want to find my nurse for help, she is always sitting in front her computer. reading?..... A new doctor's start pay is about 110K to 170K depend on the specialty. A new assistant professor (phD, no clinic duty, research only) makes 100K as a start in the medical school. A lab research staff's start pay is 25K to 30K depend on who the boss (faculty) is. If a new nurse makes 40K, it is fair. If they makes 80K just off nurse school, it is absolutely over paid.
Rebecca
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 7:30 p.m.
$80K out of nursing school. You are highly mistaken. I have been a nurse for 25 years and still do not make that! Get your facts straight before you say something like that.
proudnurse
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 2:17 a.m.
Angry Mod. My apologies. I was just coming to fix that, I got you confused with someone else posting.
Angry Moderate
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 2:05 a.m.
proudnurse: I am a gay man, not sure where you got the idea that I have a nurse girlfriend. But to address the point, anti-union nurses is not anti-nurses. There are plenty of nurses at St. Joe's who are perfectly happy without a union, and plenty at U of M who are sick and tired of their union's antics.
proudnurse
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 2:02 a.m.
Your nurse was probably sitting in front of a computer charting....since he/she has to log into 3 different systems to chart on just you! And no a new nurse does not start off at 80k/yr. Angry Mod. Does your GF know you feel the way you do about her profession? I feel sorry for her!
Angry Moderate
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 1:35 a.m.
The nurses often refuse to do anything that can legally be done by a non-nurse. They consider themselves above anything but actually passing out the meds.
eagleman
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 1:17 a.m.
As an employee at UMHS, I can say that the administration has displayed a tendency to lie. Some months back they claimed that they were losing money because supposedly they had a significant amount of beds. But then a few weeks later they announced a 2.1 percent profit margin. Which is it UM? Btw, it is grossly inaccurate to say that the nurses do all work. If I as a stocker do not do my job the nurse cannot do their job. The nurses need a supporting cast to do their job.
eagleman
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 4:11 a.m.
Ugh. I apologize for the errors. I wrote that on my iPhone. It should read " had a significant amount of EMPTY beds" ; "..nurses cannot do their job"; nurses do all the work".
Sciomanone1
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 1:01 a.m.
When I was working for the University of Michigan Health systems, I was in a Union and the top Administrators do not care about how the workers are treated I know for a fact because when I wrote to all of them because I had co-workers sleeping during work time and Patients almost die, NO ONE would help me and later when two sleeping co-worker were found sleeping and more patients almost died they were fired and I did not get my job back, I was just paid off to go away and Not come back to work there. Two of the many sleeping co-workers on the Midnight shift were promoted to management and they are still there and still sleeping, but because I wrote to Mary Coleman, Dr. Darrell Campbell, Loretta Thomas and many other in administration, after it was proven that I was right and I should not have been fired, I was just paid off thanks to the help of the Union, so believe me I know for a Fact the Union at U of M Medical Center is there to help the workers and the Administration sure are not, they sure do not work 16 hour shifts. For many years, I did and when I told what would go on during the Midnight shift, I was fired while the sleeping workers were promoted to Supervisor, manager and Director. They are all still working and I was fired and could not find a job making the money like I did at the U of M per hour. Also, I had to sign a paper telling me that I could never work there again if I took the pay off money from the U of M. When I was about to loose my home and car I took the money before I would be left with nothing and this was just because I was concern about the Patient care.
John B.
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 9:45 p.m.
I'm sorry, but I don't believe a word of what you seem to be trying to say here. Could you back any of it up with facts? I thought not...
Sciomanone1
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 1:26 a.m.
Also, I did work for the U of M Medical Center for over 17 years and Not one co-worker would speak up and be a witness for me because they said they did not want to be next that the u of m does not help the workers that speak up and are a whistle blower, they just fire them and they are still working . When I worked in the Emergency room and had a family member of a patient that was looking for his wife that he had just beat up and came in by a ambulance, he jumped over the desk where I was sitting and put a knife at my throat and say for me to tell him where she was or he would put the knife in me and I would not live to tell what happen to me. When I did push the panic button two female security guards came around the corner and said they could not do anything to help me to just tell him what he wanted to know and I asked where the U of M Police were or the Ann Arbor Police and they said there was no one else that they were the only two at 4am on a Sunday morning and I asked for them to call some one and the man just put the long switch blade knife up and down on neck and said if I see the Police he would stab me. Soon, some other Medical staff came out to help because they could hear his loud voice and tried to help me, I was called in the next day to talk to the top administrator Mr. Peter Forrester and was told it was my fault and did not get the promotion that I was going to be getting and could not be off for my vacation that was paid for. He said I could of done more to help the patient care. well because myself and a few other medical staff went to the top Administrator of the hospital there is now 24/7 security in the ER and I soon later did transfer to another department that was more safe to work in. If all of the nurses would stick together some thing would get done for them, but if some do not speak up and share about what is going on and how they are treated, nothing will happen and the nurse that vote for a change, they will be fired.
Heardoc
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 12:56 a.m.
I am totally opposed to public employee union but strongly favor private employee unions like the Michigan Nurses Association. With that said -- I think the nurses have every right to bargain and to get as much at the bargaining table as possible. Public employee unions should never have the same rights as private employee unions -- in fact public employees should be banned from unions. The fact that the Medical system is spending money on capital improvements has really no bearing on the negotiations-- bit of a red herring there.... The private union, Michigan Nurses Association, will come out of this with a good contract or the nurses.
Heardoc
Thu, Jun 30, 2011 : 3:02 a.m.
Ghost -- you are wrong again. Geez -- The hospital is private and the hospital system is private -- so the nurses work for a private employer. The hospital is separate from the university. Pleas be more accurate -- quite tiresome to have you attempt to portray yourself as somewhat of an intellectual while at the same time being so inaccurate...... A public employee is one who works for a state county municipal or federal system. The hospital is none of these. I can go to any hospital -- and if one hospital is on strike I can go to another -- when a group of firemen or a group of policemen strike -- is there another place we can go top get police or fire protection? Maybe this little bit of info will assist you in the future with your posts. Class over.
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 2:46 p.m.
Gee. A really interesting post. Last time I checked, the nurses worked for the University of Michigan, which means they are public employees, which means they have a public employee union. Can't wait to see the anti-intellectual back-flips necessary to refute this. Good Night and Good Luck
Angry Moderate
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 1:34 a.m.
Quite right about the irrelevance of capital spending to the negotiation of union contracts. Not sure about characterizing these as purely private employees though; UMHS has the same issue as public sector unions in that management has no dog in the fight and no incentive to negotiate down.
PLGreen
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 12:46 a.m.
Having just spent time in the ER Trama Unit, Surgery and a night in the U of M Hospital I can tell you that the Nurses are entitled to all they can get. They are the ones doing ALL THE WORK!!!
rrt911
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 3:43 p.m.
Nurses do not do all the work, there are many others who make the system work just as much as nurses. Respiratory therapists, transportation, physical therapists, secretaries, nurses aides. It is offensive to hear that nurses are doing it all...... don't leave out the rest of us!
Angry Moderate
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 1:20 a.m.
Actually, there are people in all of those labs and offices doing work as well. Just because you don't see them (in person, or whining in the newspaper) doesn't mean they aren't.
Fredric
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 12:39 a.m.
Would you rather have a nurse taking care of you when you are injured or sick or a plumber or Elcet. I know which I want!! Check out what these guys make and then check what a nurse makes. They are under paid. Speaking of being over paid.!!
julieswhimsies
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 12:26 a.m.
The University of Michigan Health System's answer to everything: Spend millions on new buildings, and renovations of existing ones, and making record profits. This is not improving patient care...which should be their priority.
Terrin Bell
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 12:25 a.m.
redtruck70: If any profession needs Unions it is the Nurse profession. My girlfriend is a nurse and she has worked for a variety of area health facilities in town including U of M. Her last job was at a non-Union place that is building a major new addition. To pay for it, the management fired experienced nurses because after years of service they were higher paid. They brought in newly graduated nurses with no experience. Further, the place went from a 12 to 1 nurse to patient ratio to a 18 to 1 nurse to patient ratio. The place often requires a nurse to work doubles. If the nurse made a medication error, they'd fire the nurse even though the nurse is over tired and over worked. Guess what suffers from these policies? yes, you guessed it" patients. To the person who comments his girlfriend makes $85, 000. I am an attorney. I see lots of paychecks. That isn't common unless the person is working tons of overtime and midnight shifts. Most places pay a premium for working nights as it is extremely hard on one's body. To the person who claimed he pays for his health benefits. U of M employees including nurses pay for their health benefits. A substantial amount. The issue is how much should they pay. Why should employees have to pay for the University to pay for new buildings that arguably are not needed especially when the University is sitting on billions of dollars in savings? U of M is so cheap it makes its employees pay for parking. You want the people taking care of you happy. Otherwise, you will suffer. Nurses earn their money. There is great trend in the Country to give the rich tax breaks, and try to squeeze the rest of us for more money to make up for the difference. Instead of ganging up on nurses because they may be doing better then many of us, we should really direct our frustration to the causes of the problem: namely government polices that reward the rich for screwing the rest of us.
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 6:30 p.m.
"can you say leftist and class warfare------" Can you say right-wing blather? Good Night and Good Luck
Mick52
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 3:33 p.m.
Red, isn't it illegal for nurses to strike? I thought there were included in that like police and fire fighters. No need for a strike if you have binding arbitration. Also I think tossing buildings into the mix is not accurate unless you have some facts on that. The U is quite good at raising donations and such for construction and does not have to dip into operating costs to get buildings up.
redtruck70
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 1:49 a.m.
I am a nurse, so I think it is fair for me to comment on the destructive force that unions have brought to nursing. They reward seniority, cronyism and protect bad behavior, while stifling young professional nurses who wish to get ahead on merit and innovation. Nursing unions use the threat of strikes to bring hospital administrators to their knees, not for the fear of losing money, but for the fear of patient safety. Any nurse who would would be part of an organization that advocated striking, and risking the lives of patients should look inward, and ask why they became a nurse in the first place. Nurses are undervalued, and crapped upon. But the approach taken here is not the right one. As a profession, we can do much better. I will never work at UMHS as a nurse because I would be forced to be part of the union. I imagine there are many nurses who would love to work there but feel the same way I do.
Heardoc
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 12:59 a.m.
can you say leftist and class warfare------
1bit
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 12:24 a.m.
ERMG: Have you considered that maybe the U thinks it pays nurses better and/or provides better benefits than the competition? The U of M Health System is still profitable, they are spending tons of money on infrastructure, so why ask for concessions? I suspect they believe (and probably correctly) that U of M is the best job in town and can reduce wages/benefits and remain a competitive employer. I do believe in supply/demand but the problems are usually fairly complicated.
1bit
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 12:24 a.m.
Sorry, this was supposed to be a reply to your first post.
dqn1
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 11:39 p.m.
For those of you who are just like my wife and myself -middle class and living paycheck-to-paycheck and trying to raise a couple of kids - yet believe so strongly that as ICU nurses at the U of M we are just trying to get as much as we possibly can from this institution who has painted us as being so well paid and taken care of, consider this if you will: Who will come and rescue you when the police force sworn to protect and serve your community has been stripped away. This is happening right now. Who will come to your aide once those breaking into your house hurt you and your family after the fire and rescue services have also been slashed due to "budget cuts"?. And, after being admitted to the hospital, who do you expect to care for you then? The doctors?? Have you ever known a nurse to say that they got into the profession because of the money?? Public service is being destroyed and the irony is that these individuals are being attacked by their neighbors. Two years ago individuals receiving a very specialized type care provided in only a few ICU's nationwide would have 2 nurses at their bedside because they were so close to death and so many things could go wrong. Now, budget requirements say that person only needs one nurse to keep them alive. Is that good enough for your mother, wife or child?? Because according to some of the angry posts on this feed it is. So when tragedy comes knocking on your door please remember your position on all public service employees. Cops want to take a bullet saving your life, Fire fighters hope to get burned to collect disability , teachers love the challenges of teaching 40+ kids at a time without having any funds to do so and nurses love caring for more and more sicker and sicker people without needed staffing and support. After all, we nurses are just their to collect an easy paycheck, right??
redtruck70
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 1:38 a.m.
No disagreement there....but if cops, nurses, firefighters etc were willing to give to give in and pay a portion of their health care costs like most Americans, than many of these cuts would not be necessary. We cannot have it both ways.
David Paris
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 11:38 p.m.
I hate to see the University using future budget shortfalls due to the opening of a new building against some of the Best Nurses in the Business. The new W & Ch addition is sure to be a cash cow in the not-to-distant future, suck it up for 1-2 years and forget about it! And to poster Denise, above, I'm sorry about the treatment that your father received, there's no excuse for that, but most of our patients are very happy with the care that they receive.
townie54
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 11:02 p.m.
Actually how much of a percent of the total hospital budget goes to pay union employees?I dont know for sure but it just seems like the employees are easy targets so companies dont have look into real waste and cost cutting .Is it around ten percent ?I'm not making a statement just asking if anyone really knows.I think theres more waste at the top than than there is at the bottom
eagleman
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 4:23 a.m.
Quite a bit actually. A business' greatest expense is its' workforce. That is business 101. I belong to AFSCME and we alone have something close to 2,000 members at UM. Now add the 4000 nurses and you have approximately 6,000 staff members who belong to unions. I am a pay grade 4, have decent benefits, and can make $40,000 a year with overtime as a manual laborer.
Denise
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 10:55 p.m.
With the lack of care that my father received I think they are way overpaid. I found the nurses to be uncaring and blaming everyone else for their mistakes. They need an overhaul to only employ the ones that really care about the patient. It is time to clean house.
Denise
Thu, Jun 30, 2011 : 1:26 a.m.
You are correct dqn1, I am harsh. I am only harsh because of the experience. If you think overdosing on narcotics and having to reverse it then you can think what you want. Do you also think it is harsh to have a vent tube pulled out not once but twice okay??? Then she blamed it on the length of the vent tube; they she didn't already know the length of the tube. It was not only traumatizing to him but me as well. All I am saying is there are nurses out there that shouldn't be nurses. It also appears you are doing to same thing with excuses. I don't know what little kids have to do with this. I also work 70-80 hours a week and am very stressed, but if I thought for one second I could give quality to my work I would resign. As you said ALL people deserve excellent care and it doesn't come at bargain prices. So if they are unable to give that excellent care, they should resign.
dqn1
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 1:20 a.m.
I don't know specifics, but "they" are over 4ooo nurses in a variety of roles and specialties. I am sure at some point in your professional career you were overworked and stressed. Could it be that your father did not get the care he deserved because nurses are being disciplined for not working with the bare minimum in staffing? Tell you what- add 50% to your daily workload, then work a sixteen hour shift with one 30min break. do this on a regular basis for one month, then have your pay based on how happy you are. Better yet, go take this arguement to those nurses who work day in and day out watching little kids die of cancer or congenital defects. You are harsh. Your father, as with all people, deserve excellent care. That does not come for bargain-basement prices
uofmrn
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 10:54 p.m.
Tony Denton is way off.This is a good public relations speech, this is not what the nurses and nurses union are hearing.
Linda McLaughlin
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 10:46 p.m.
I remember when on a committee and the U of M was blowing smoke up every ones ass by saying they want to be the #1 Employer., how are you going to do that all you do is take way from your employees. Why don't you ask your big wigs to make concessions, like president Coleman and over paid staff. Hell you had money so you could pay a 500.000 dollar bonus and to top it all off pay the taxes for it, remember that was a few years ago. Bad enough you charge employees for parking just to come to work. Shame on you U of M in always taking away from the working poor!!!!!
eagleman
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 4:06 a.m.
Moderate is right. Nurses are not the working poor. My best friend is a nurse and he has bought a house and a brand new Camero in the past 3 years.
1bit
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 11:12 p.m.
Linda: Your point is well taken, but you are conflating U of M and the U of M Health System which are functionally different entities.
Angry Moderate
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 11:05 p.m.
If the unions think nurses at the University of Michigan are "the working poor", they are so far out of touch that they shouldn't be allowed near our healthcare system.
RUKiddingMe
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 10:36 p.m.
True Dat regarding the U being out of control. Their building boom needs reigning in, and without even thinking about whether nurses deserve raises or if the U is wrng in this instance, I'd say ANY expenditure that takes away from their ridiculous building fever is good. I think they have to figure out ways to spend all the money they get so they can prove that they still need money. Might as well give it to humans instead of ruining the skyline in every direction. That hospital complex is OUT of CONTROL.
RUKiddingMe
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 10:37 p.m.
reigning = reining
Nurse2011
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 10:30 p.m.
As a current RN at the U I can tell you that working conditions on some units are not good. I can be forced to stay for 4 more hours at the end of my shift, which can be 12 hours long already. I am subject to being on call over night and expected to be at work the next day for my scheduled shift. I have worked long shifts for over 15 years and now may end up with no benefits for my retirement, if I can ever retire. My share of health insurance premiums right now is fair, to ask more of me is NOT fair. I pay to park every year, and that doesn't even guarantee me a space. I have hurt my back, shoulder and many other body parts while caring for the critically ill. I love being a nurse. I love being able to provide care to people in need. My job is physical, emotional and technological. I spend more time trying to chart on paper and in 3 different computer programs than with my patient at the bedside. I earn my money every day. I make less than Mary Sue Coleman, Skip Campbell or any other administrator and yet it's my pay that they want to cut. I will be happy to take a paycut the day any of these administrator's do. I also would like them to spend a day with me in the trenches, because I know not one of them would last 12 hours without a break, lunch or chance to pee. All the nurse are asking for is to be treated fairly, and respectfully. We deserve it. Not one of us wants to see a strike.
rrt911
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 3:37 p.m.
Most people have no idea how incredibly stressful, backbreakingly physical and horrid pension planning is. U of M's might be better than most is my guess. By the time you are 50, you're body will be broken, you will exposed yourself to countless dangerous bugs and you won't have much in the way of retirement that's for sure. I live in western NY and we were ready to strike yesterday, but an agreement was supposedly reached. they want to take away some our PTO time, add to what we already pay for parking, and SO much more. I can only imagine how I would be feeling if I still lived there when UofM is building , building and building and now we are to take cuts? I am not a "union person" but people would not believe what would happen to us if we didn't have one. Hospitals are their own little world and if you don't work at one, you'd never believe what you are asked to do each and every damn day!!
Angry Moderate
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 1:43 a.m.
dqn1: I think the administrators (meaning the real high-ups, not just regular managers) are worse than the nurses. They have the power to rein in building, spending, and employee costs, but never do it.
redtruck70
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 1:33 a.m.
If you care as much for your patient's as you say you do, a strike would not even be mentioned. Who would care for that critically ill patient??
dqn1
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 1:26 a.m.
What exactly do you do for the hospital, Mr angry moderate? Do you have the same resentment for the pay raises the administration gave themselves?? Check out the Michigan Daily for Jan 5, 2011. I'd bet some gave themselves a raise that is double your annual salary
Angry Moderate
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 1:18 a.m.
Actually, johnnya2, taxpayers do get a say in how much tax-funded employees at public hospitals affiliated with public universities are paid.
johnnya2
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 12:19 a.m.
Angry is angry because he works at the hospital and makes minimum wage. Of course his anecdotal evidence is irrelevant to the discussion. If he wants to become a nurse, DO THE WORK. If you want to make more money join a union that will get you a better salary, otherwise just shut up. YOU have no right to decide what others make.
dotdash
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 11:12 p.m.
What do you do, Angry Moderate? And why are you angry?
Angry Moderate
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 11:03 p.m.
If you work 12 hour shifts with no break, no lunch, and not allowed to pee, then your union isn't doing any good anyway, is it? Strange claims, I work at the hospital and see nurses sitting and chatting for hours on end every single day.
uofmrn
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 10:30 p.m.
Atticus you are way wrong ,nurses are not overpaid. They are under appreciated. Nurses are the backbone of the U of M hospitals OR ANY HOSPITAL FOR THAT MATTER.. The University just wants to take, take, take ,from the nurses and have us do more.They want to take away our overtime, pay less for our health care.Mess with our PTO ETC ETC ETC. THE UNIVERSITY DOES NOT APPRECIATE THE NURSES.
A2CommonCityFolk
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 1:32 p.m.
I am wondering if you can cite facts. It is my understanding that the University just wants to bring the nursing benefits in line with what the rest of the non-nursing staff is getting. I see no problem with that. If you actually take the time do a quick google search you will notice that the UofM nursing is getting paid at or above the average wage for nursing in the State of Michigan. It would be nice if these discussions where about facts or at least supported by facts.
Angry Moderate
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 11:01 p.m.
You do realize that nearly everyone else in the city gets less overtime pay than you, and pays more for their healthcare as well, right? Nurses are not the only important workers out there.
Linda McLaughlin
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 10:47 p.m.
you got that right!!!
dotdash
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 10:20 p.m.
This is the perfect example of why unions are necessary. The hospital spends all its money building new buildings and then wants to cut nurses' salaries to make up some of the red ink. Without a union, nurses would involuntarily underwrite the new hospital. When you are an employee dealing with an entity as powerful as the hospital with --how to say this politely --questionable commitment to your well-being, you had better have some muscle yourself.
dotdash
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 11:10 p.m.
You are right, Angry Moderate, they could always quit rather than having their salary cut. Silly me. Because then they could easily find another job -- oh wait.
Angry Moderate
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 11 p.m.
I was not aware nurses work at the hospital involuntarily.
tommy_t
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 9:21 p.m.
Great way to drive off good nurses. Tell them to shove it - you can work for better pay elsewhere in the area.
John B.
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 9:41 p.m.
Qualified and experienced nurses can ALWAYS find employment elsewhere, typically for more money or better benefits. They don't move just for money, though, in general, just like any intelligent professional wouldn't. I am an Engineer, but I don't jump around around from job to job just to make a little more salary each time I move. There are so many other factors that are involved. Life is richly complex (in the real world, where most of us live).
Angry Moderate
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 1:32 a.m.
Meg: Both of those hospitals have had talk of staff reductions, hiring freezes, and budget problems for the last several years. So no, U of M nurses can't just up and find a higher paying job there.
Angry Moderate
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 1:17 a.m.
Their retirement contribution IS a form of payment, it is included in your compensation.
Meg
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 11:01 p.m.
Henry Ford and St Joe's both offered me more in base salary and in differential. Health care was minimally more expensive. The retirement match was the draw, and that I prefer a unionized workplace.
Angry Moderate
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 10:59 p.m.
You do realize that "benefits" are part of "compensation" right? You keep claiming that you can get better pay at other local hospitals, but you won't tell us which ones?
Meg
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 10:50 p.m.
@AM: For me, it was the benefits. You know, those benefits you want to cut?
Angry Moderate
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 10:10 p.m.
Meg: Then why don't you answer the question? Which hospitals, and why haven't the U of M nurses switched there already?
Meg
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 10:01 p.m.
There are at least two other hospitals that I know for a fact pay more than U of M. Try again.
Angry Moderate
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 9:35 p.m.
Where can nurses get better pay than at U of M, exactly? And if that's true, why haven't they switched there yet? Surely you don't mean that other hospital across town, which has no problem finding nurses, even though they are not unionized at all.
DaLast word
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 8:44 p.m.
The problem here, originates with the union....as always, they have mussled there way to a pay structure that exceeds what most of us poor slugs can make in the public sector. When a group of people hold their employers hostage for these benifits and higher pay, it is the rest of us who must pick up the tab. You are seeing just the tip of the ice berg here in what the public is willing to take from those that are preceived to have power over them. Wait til you see what happens in the next presidential election! We are moving one step closer to a socialized society. God save us.
Mick52
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 3:29 p.m.
I never thought nurses were overpaid. I would add that getting through nursing school is not an easy task and requires a high level of study and skill. So with a requirement of a college degree, you expect that level of pay. I think the benefit sharing and extras might need some tweaking, but at UM hospital where the management is treated like royalty, they need some wealth sharing before they make cuts.
John B.
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 12:08 a.m.
...and I'll take a socialized society over an unsocialized society any day. I make it a habit to make sure my dogs are socialized early in their lives, too, fwiw....
John B.
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 12:07 a.m.
Nice talking points, there, DLW. Total baloney, though. You seem to conveniently foget that management was/is the one that negotiates with and came to / comes to agreements with unions. Seems to me that you should direct your anger at the management that (theoretically, in your apparent opinion) negotiated bad agreements, not the nurses' union that negotiated in good faith.
Meg
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 9:59 p.m.
I have a master's degree and ten years of experience in my job. I'm fully aware of what I could make in the private sector. I'll give you a hint: It's more. If you're unhappy with what you could make in the public sector, maybe you should have considered a career that is well-educated and in demand.
paxsolace
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 8:33 p.m.
What benefits are they talking about? What are other hospitals doing for nursing? Just curious.
Oregon39_Michigan7
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 8:24 p.m.
Um ... Angry ... did you read the article? Or do you just have a beef with unions in general? The UMPNC is NOT asking for "higher salaries, free unlimited healthcare, more time off (paid [or unpaid]), and not to be required to do work while they're on the clock." Where did you get this non-sense from?!? The UMPNC and UM Hospital are at odds over how overtime is calculated, a 30% increase in health insurance (or 30% decrease in employer matching), and if PTO/Senority should accrue during an STD or other LOA.
Mick52
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 3:25 p.m.
Am and Meg, you conversation is interesting. It is noteworthy that AM is an insider and thus has a unique viewpoint. I do agree a bit too angry. I would propose to AM that is there are nurses sluffing off work that is due to poor or non existent supervision not the union contract. Believe me good union employees also know who the lazy employees are and they are mad at them too.
Meg
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 11:24 p.m.
I haven't heard a convincing argument of nurses' laziness yet, and I can't get too exercised about phantom laziness.
Angry Moderate
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 11:14 p.m.
You don't understand why lazy nurses are bad for patients? You aren't making the nurses look good to anyone reading these comments. Perhaps you shouldn't accuse me of doing a bad job when you don't even know what my job is! I sit in a room full of nurses who eat, talk on the phone, and go shopping for clothes online all day long while I am doing my work. It doesn't take away from my work to notice what the lazy nurses around me are doing all the time.
Meg
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 10:59 p.m.
How is it bad for patients? How do you know the people you see are lazy? Why are you so concerned with policing others instead of doing your own job? The argument can be made that you waste taxpayer money by spending your time monitoring nurses instead of doing whatever it is you're paid to do.
Angry Moderate
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 10:58 p.m.
I spend a lot of time in the cafeteria, but I don't write it down as working hours like some of the other employees. You seem to think that all hospital employees get the same benefits as you. We do not. Some get even less than me. Obviously, it is bad for patients when the hospital wastes money overpaying lazy employees who can't be fired because of the union contract. And it's unfair to the good employees who have to make up for them.
Meg
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 10:49 p.m.
This obsession with nurses in the cafeteria is puzzling to me. How much time do you spend there? Unions promote a stable, well-compensated workforce. How is that not good for patients? Are you thinking that health care benefits are not given to non-union workers?
Angry Moderate
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 10:39 p.m.
Meg, I know that union jobs are better for the employees, that is obvious. But to stop there is a selfish view. They are not better for the taxpayers. You do realize that someone actually has to pay for your luxurious benefits right? They are not better for the patients who need care while some of the nurses sit in the cafeteria for hours every day because their managers aren't allowed to track them. And just because I work at UMHS does not mean that I have the same benefits as you. Not even close. There are many behind the scenes employees at the hospital who apparently aren't as important. But I don't complain about my lack of benefits-- I agreed to them when I took the job, and I am free to switch jobs if I find a better one.
Meg
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 9:58 p.m.
@Angry Moderate, why so angry? I've worked union and non-union nursing jobs. The union jobs were better by far, for a number of reasons. A strong contract gives nurses collective power. We are the ones who see what staffing ratios do to our patients. We're the ones who know that in other hospitals, continuing education (which is required for continuing licensure) is subsidized by the employer. Other hospitals pay more in night-shift differential. There is no weekend differential at U of M, which is almost unheard-of. Again, why so concerned with what others have? You say you also work at UMHS, which means that you have the same good health care benefits the nurses do. Keeping nurses in a tight supply situation means UMHS is competing with outside hospitals. The way they do that it is through benefits. An experienced nurse is valuable, and also knows it's not that hard to find another job. If you want to push out the nurses at UMHS, go ahead -- but it's hard to maintain a world-class reputation without world-class nursing.
Angry Moderate
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 8:41 p.m.
For benefits, they want higher salaries, free unlimited healthcare, more time off (paid, of course), and to not be required to do work while they're on the clock. Oh- and over at St. Joseph Mercy Hospital, the nurses are not unionized at all. As far as I know, they are not working 36 hour shifts, eating trash out of the dumpsters where they sleep, or being forced to manufactures textiles for Nike on their breaks.
BhavanaJagat
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 8:10 p.m.
The Hospital System is the problem for escalating heath care expenses. The Chief Executive and the Chief Operating Officer are indeed a part of this problem. We need to correctly diagnose this problem of increasing medical costs and trim the benefits and pay of the executives and of those super specialists who are overbilling the System. The nurses must be given their due share and must defend their benefits.
Kelly Davenport
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 8:06 p.m.
A reminder: Please keep the conversation civil and focused on the story itself.
WalkingJoe
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 8:55 p.m.
Kelly, thank you. I wish other staff members would warn people about commenting on the story and not each others postings.
redtruck70
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 8 p.m.
Nurses in unions is just sad and in my my view just plain unethical. Any nurse who would strike or threaten to strike and put patients at risk is not a professional. I have to pay for my health insurance, and so does the majority of the American population. And oh yes....left leaning union members....what of the 47 million Americans who have no health insurance???? How do you explain to these people that you pay next to nothing for your healthcare. Grow up and face reality.
Rebecca
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 10:09 p.m.
Private sector employees have the right to health care. Are you saying because we are nurses we do not have that right! This is such a ridiculus conception! I am sorry that some Americans do not have health care. But I went to school and I have worked to have health care. While some work many do not that do not have health care! I have read areas of this post stating that nurses sleep on the job or should have time clocks. This is crazy. First of all I am a professional. I report to work earlier than I am suppose to and most days stay later! I work from home. I answer pages on my off time for patients and or the facility. I have been mandated to work 24 hours shifts which was a routine in the operating rooms on weekends. I have had 4 hours sleep time between my next shift after working 24 hours. This sleep time included driving home showering, sleeping, and driving back. I have volunteered to come in with emergency situations and consoled families with loss. I have never over estimated my time at work or needed to prove my time of arrival. Obviously somone mentioning something like that does not understand that nurses have report. They have to get updates on their patients from shifts that are leaving. I am so insulted that anyone would question a nursing professional. Do you question your physician? Do you challange a physician who may close their eyes on their lunch hour?
Mick52
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 3:20 p.m.
Red, unions are formed because employees look to their employer to take care of them. When they feel that is not the case, they unionize. If you have a good, honest employer you trust you do not need a union. I am not a union fan, many times unions are obviously groups of people in serious need of supervision. But if you can't trust your boss you have to take care of yourself.
Cici
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 10:40 a.m.
I for one find it strange that a professional needs to clock in at all! Those in-or-out-on-time are issues should be handled by their supervisor. Overtime scheduled if necessary. I find time clocking is like bean counting and any professional should be responsible to their supervisor, not to a time clock.
Angry Moderate
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 1:16 a.m.
1bit: the AMA actually does act like a union sometimes. They push for excessively strict requirements on medical schools, presumably to drive down the supply of doctors.
1bit
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 1:10 a.m.
The AMA is a professional organization. Not a union. Not even close. No one is obligated to be part of the AMA. The AMA does not collectively bargain for anyone or group. The AMA has absolutely nothing to do with getting into medical school or getting a medical license.
proudnurse
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 12:55 a.m.
Let me just say that I don't care if my manager kept track of me while I was on lunch.....that is If I got a lunch break. I'm lucky if I can pee at all during my 12 hour shift!!
johnnya2
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 12:15 a.m.
What do you think the AMA is for doctors? It is a union of doctors. They can call it anything they want, but it is a union. They determine everything about getting a license to practice medicine. They set the standards. They keep people out of their exclusive club for the ability to charge rates well above their worth. All EMPLOYEES (nurses are employees) have the right to unionize to negotiate their pay and benefits. If the CEO wants more money and the U wont give it to him, he is free to leave. If the doctor does not like an insurance company compensation he is free to not accept that insurance. Would you call them unethical?
Meg
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 11:27 p.m.
I actually don't care, as in my experience, time clocks ensure that nurses are paid for their overtime. But for you to claim the hospital is within its rights to cut benefits because the contract doesn't call for time clocks is pretty much nonsensical. And that's what your argument has been: obsessing. Over time clocks.
Angry Moderate
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 11:10 p.m.
I did not say that physicians don't cheat too. I did not say that physicians shouldn't get a time clock. And I know it's an issue because I work at the hospital, and I am well aware of how a few bad nurses cheat on their time sheets. And when a few people do it every week, that adds up to a lot of money. So again, if you don't over bill, why are you so insistent on writing down your hours instead of clocking in?
Meg
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 10:57 p.m.
Why are you convinced that without a time clock, nurses will somehow cheat the system, but physicians won't? I've worked both in hospitals with a time clock and without. I don't get this paranoia about cheating the taxpayer without evidence that it occurs.
Angry Moderate
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 10:54 p.m.
Whoops, "nurses should clock in."
Angry Moderate
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 10:53 p.m.
I never said that physicians should not clock in. I said that nurses should not clock in. I did not say anything about physicians at all. Why avoid the subject of using time clocks to stop nurses from writing down fake hours, which are paid for by sick people, insurance companies, and taxpayers?
Meg
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 10:48 p.m.
How is it irrelevant? We're professionals who are doing a job. They're professionals who are doing a job. Are you arguing that nurses are less trustworthy and ethical than physicians?
Angry Moderate
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 10:02 p.m.
Obviously, time clocks ensure that nurses are actually at the hospital when they say they are. They are also cheaper, more accurate, and more efficient than manual processing. They make things easier for the payroll department. They provide a more thorough record in case an issue should come up in court, etc. The *only* downside to time clocks is that they make it harder for employees to lie and steal from taxpayers by writing down fake hours. So it makes me wonder, why are you so against time clocks? Why is the union spending so much time and money fighting time clocks, unless their members are cheating the system? Whether physicians clock in is irrelevant to whether nurses should clock in, so I'll just ignore that.
Meg
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 9:53 p.m.
@Angry Moderate: Do you have actual evidence that time clocks improve the work performance of nurses? Well, I'll make it easy: there isn't any. Time clocks protect the employee in many cases, because overtime (and in Michigan that can be mandatory) gets tracked in a way it often isn't. The larger question is why should nurses clock in and out? Physicians on call, who are also working shifts, don't. Nurses approve their time sheets at UMHS, so they are verifying that they've worked the time they're being paid for. What investment do you seem to have in time clocks? Also, frankly, anyone worrying so much about whether someone else is clocking in and out probably doesn't have enough to do at work.
Angry Moderate
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 9:45 p.m.
Also, it's plainly hypocritical for you to complain about managers keeping track of their own employees, and then give a list of what you think your managers should be doing. Only a union worker could be offended by a manager watching employees to make sure they aren't lying on their time sheets.
Angry Moderate
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 9:34 p.m.
Dutch: I work at the UM Hospital, since you asked. Just switched from the private sector where, yes, the managers are allowed to watch the employees to make sure they're working and not sleeping in break rooms or hanging out in the cafeteria during working hours. Shocking!!
Dutch
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 9:27 p.m.
@ Angry Moderate: Where do you work? Do you have someone keeping track of your every move, productivity, break? Managers should be busy worrying about safe staffing, budget, infection rates, core measures, etc...
Angry Moderate
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 8:34 p.m.
Meg: Could you please explain how a contract forbidding managers from tracking nurses within the hospital to make sure they are actually working while they are clocked in will improve patient care?
Meg
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 8:29 p.m.
Unionized nurses give us power to be fairly compensated, to maintain safe staffing ratios and scheduling, and to provide safer nursing care.
Terri
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 7:56 p.m.
Atticus, are you honestly complaining that you're getting "attitude" from nurses after panning them? As though it somehow proves your point that they are less valuable than doctors because you're not getting attitude from docs...as far as you know?
townie54
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 10:43 p.m.
a lot of specialist doctors attitudes are very arrogant.Last time I went to u of m to see a specialist after the second visit I wanted to punch him out.The nurses were always nice and down to earth.
Terri
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 8:52 p.m.
Atticus, I never said nurses should be compensated fairly for "doing good."
Atticus F.
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 8:46 p.m.
Terri, you just said in your own words that "How people are valued isn't about money or education". Now your saying that they should be valued for their training. Which is it? My point was just because you do something good doesn't mean you deserve more money.
Terri
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 8:38 p.m.
You understand that nurses aren't volunteers, right? They don't do this in their spare time, this is their profession, for which they have years of training.
Atticus F.
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 8:23 p.m.
I also help the homeless on my days off...Maybe I should be demanding 80k/per year. After all "How people are valued isn't about money or education".
Atticus F.
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 8:07 p.m.
Well if thats the case terri, then people who scrub toilets should be making 80k per year.
Terri
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 8:04 p.m.
Panning is talking smack about people. How people are valued isn't about money or education, and how you value nurses is clear in the way you talk about them.
Atticus F.
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 8:01 p.m.
If by "panning" you mean delivering supplies to the floor and collecting a signature, as was my job... Also, the reason I think nurses don't command a salary as high as a doctor would, is because there is not as much schooling involved. It's economics in it's simplest form. Not to hard to understand.
Atticus F.
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 7:58 p.m.
I don't understand what you mean by "panning them".
Atticus F.
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 7:43 p.m.
I should also note that I met my girlfriend while working in the hospital...And in my experence, alot of nurses were cranky, rude, and had a sense of entitlement. I also got a sense of hostility towards doctors from alot of nurses, as well as an attitude that their work is more imporant than the doctors. I'm not trying to step on any toes or insult anyone, just giving my personal experience as someone who used to come into contact with alot of nurses. I can also see that attitude in the responses to my original post.
John B.
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 12:14 a.m.
AF: I would respectfully submit that you may want to consider seeking some anger management therapy, and/or couples therapy.
Meg
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 10:31 p.m.
@garrisondyer: Once a nurse has accepted care of a patient, s/he is legally obligated to care for that patient until she has relinquished care to another person.
garrisondyer
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 10:24 p.m.
Dutch -- this is just an honest question about nursing. What's the protocol when a nurse feels s/he has been verbally, physically, or otherwise assaulted? Is there still an obligation to continue treatment? Personally, I'd already be planning to take Mr or Mrs Crazy to court! (Yeah right, as if I'd have enough time/energy to do that as a nurse...) Keep it up, nurses! Plenty of us appreciate what you do.
Dutch
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 9:41 p.m.
Thanks for that reply atticus. Again, my point is that nurses work in a high stress, high demanding environment and we will defend our profession against anyone who thinks otherwise. I didn't directly attack your job, but you felt the need to defend it anyway. Question to you, if the above article was about you having to take concessions would you sit idly by or defend the work you do?
Atticus F.
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 9:28 p.m.
Townie, she works in a burn/truama unit. Also, I have this debate on a regular basis, and it usually ends up with me being physically assualted. No need to feel sorry for her.
Atticus F.
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 9:25 p.m.
Dutch, why don't you try working a 23 hour shift, sleeping for 4 hours, and then working another 20 hours. While your at it, why don't you try being on call, being woken up at 3:00am to deliver emergency supplies, and then getting treated with a rude, undignified attitude when you show up. Then try getting to bed afterwards only to have your pager go off again. Please dont act as if you know my situation, or how hard I've worked to serve people in need. And please dont act as if I dont know what hard work is. I've also had to clean up feces, vomit, ect. and have been spit in my face by patients, all while being treated like I'm some sub-human robot who is annoying a nurse, when I'm just trying to do my job.
townie
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 9:23 p.m.
I'd just like to mention 85k a year is quit high for Nurses. I've been a nurse over 10 years and I certainly don't make 85k a year. Not even close. I feel sorry for your girlfriend. Wow.... "off the record"?
Dutch
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 9:13 p.m.
Atticus, for someone who claims to come in contact with a lot of nurses you don't know jack. Why don't you work 6 twelve hour shifts in a row with me and lets see if you are pleasant to be around when your done. By the way, you will be wiping up feces, urine, vomit, blood, copious amounts of trach sputum, dodging fists, feet, taking verbal abuse from patients, their family members and sometimes doctors. You'll be heavy lifting 300 lb or higher patients, checking medication dosages because doctors do make mistakes, mixing medications where if you make the slightest mistake you could kill someone. If you're lucky your patient won't code, but if he or she does it's almost July and the new residents will be there and they probably won't know what to do, so it's all up to you and your fellow NURSES to try and make sure your patient doesn't die. While you try to go home and sleep, you are jarred awake by UMHS psychiatry services calling, letting you know a patient has made a credible threat against your life or even better, the police calling you saying you are being investigated for sexual assault, and now you can't fall back asleep. You are constantly scolded by management if you forget to chart one blood pressure, didn't get your patient up for a walk, label a dressing change, change out a patients IV, etc... I could go on and on but I hope you get the picture. Just for icing on the cake, the floor is short staffed and at the end of 12 hours you get mandated to stay another 4 hours. So much for going to your kids soccer game in the morning. Bottom line, contrary to your belief, nurses bust their butts. One of the many reasons UMHS is a top hospital is because of the nurses that work here.
Mr. Ed
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 7:27 p.m.
The Nurses run the hospital. Take away the Nurses for a day and see what happens. A good Nurse is worth keeping.
Oregon39_Michigan7
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 8:18 p.m.
Angry, the article says the current contract is from 2008, and the two sides have been in neogiations since April 2011. That doesn't sound like "most of their time" to me. I'm calling you out on being a "moderate".
Mick52
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 3:15 p.m.
You are all correct about the various positions. But it is really nasty when a cranky non motivated person holds any of those positions.
A2CommonCityFolk
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 1:18 p.m.
hummm, I work at the UofM Hospital, I wonder what would happen if we took away the environmental service, transporters, or the lab runners, or the people who draw the labs, lab techs, etc, I am just wondering how the hospital would run then. You really think the nurses would take over all that? please! In order for a hospital to run and run correctly it takes more than nurses. It is just crazy to think nurses are indispensable and the most valuable TEAM member.
Cici
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 8:51 p.m.
NO, take away the laboratory workers for a day and see what happens!! With no lab tests what do you treat? How do you know what the patient may have? What medine interactions are. No chemistry, no biopsys, no microbiology, no blood typing or transfers, etc. Take away medical record specialists and see what happens to patients history for MD's and nurses to refer to.... Take away pharmacists and see what happens... They are just as much specialized AND certified professionals behind the scenes. When is the last time you (or even a doctor) thanked the medical technologist, cytotecnologist, pharmacist, etc. who worked for your treatment as a patient?
ez12c
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 8:05 p.m.
No doubt true. However, it can be said that if you take away any one particular job family for a day, you'd have a problem. Eliminate the custodians? Wouldn't want to be in the hospital on day 2 let alone a couple years after that elimination. Nurses would also not be paid since nobody would do billing, collections or payroll. .... ehh maybe having only nurses run the hospital isn't such a great plan after all. LOL
Angry Moderate
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 8 p.m.
Unfortunately, the nurses' unions spend most of their time "negotiating" for the right of incompetent nurses to not get fired, the right of nurses not to be held accountable for the accuracy of their time sheets, etc.
D
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 7:19 p.m.
The issues I have with this is not only is UM spending so much on projects, but the University consistently rewards vastly overpaid higher ups with pay increases while strong arming regular working people to take less and less. It has long been noted that UM pays almost all employees fairly low wages while the elite are paid handsomely. I am all for fair belt tightening, emphasis is on the fair...
Mick52
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 3:13 p.m.
Running a hospital has no relation to political persuasion. When faced with a huge pot of money and how to spend it, those lines blur. There is no doubt the UM from border to border is dominated by liberals but that is not relevant here.
Angry Moderate
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 8:29 p.m.
Doug Strong, the CEO of the hospital system, donates money to Democrat campaigns, not Republicans. This is public record, look it up.
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 8 p.m.
AM: The hospital system? VERY likely. Do not confuse the University Hospital with the University of Michigan. though the former is technically part of the latter, they are, for all intents an purposes, wholly separate entities. Good Night and Good Luck
Angry Moderate
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 7:51 p.m.
John B: are you telling us that the University of Michigan is run by Republicans? LOL!
Angry Moderate
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 7:44 p.m.
U of M pays nurses "low wages"? Would you like to back that up with some facts or numbers?
John B.
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 7:35 p.m.
"The issues I have with this is not only is UM spending so much on projects, but the University consistently rewards vastly overpaid higher ups with pay increases while strong arming regular working people to take less and less. It has long been noted that UM pays almost all employees fairly low wages while the elite are paid handsomely." Precisely. It's the RepubliKan way....
John B.
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 6:52 p.m.
Cut the pay of the specialists, not nurses or family practitioners! Doctors that are specialists are vastly overpaid in this country versus almost everywhere else in the world, (while teachers here are underpaid, by the way). Family Practitioners and Nurses are not overpaid. Personally, I would argue that most of them are underpaid. Until we stop vastly overpaying specialists, and paying them by the procedure (which encourages more and more procedures to be ordered, many of which are not needed) we will not be able to get a handle on our medical costs.
Mick52
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 3:10 p.m.
Be careful what you ask for. Specialists at UM hospital work for the health system. Thus many costs required of at a "Dr's office" are covered by the employer. When a Dr is a private physician, regardless of his field of care, he has to pay for the office space, equipment, staff, etc. This is one of the reasons HC is so expensive. Drs who work for a hospital like at UM may earn less in salary but do not have the expenses a private physician faces. That is the situation in England and other countries with single payer, govt run health care and why the Drs in those countries make far less than Drs in the US. UM Hosp has a good reputation and will never have a problem with hiring specialists.
1bit
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 12:17 a.m.
John B: I would put it to you that you really have no idea what doctors in the medical center are making. The only public numbers are base salary, not actual compensation. Doctors and nurses are very capable of negotiating their own employment agreements or contracts.
John B.
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 11:25 p.m.
Right after they cut the total compensation of those specialists making $300-800K per year, we can talk about cutting nurses' pay. Hell will have to freeze over first for the former to occur, though, so I'm not losing any sleep waiting for it!
1bit
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 11:07 p.m.
I agree that John B should decide who is underpaid and who is overpaid. If he is unavailable, please contact Hugo Chavez or Fidel Castro.
Meg
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 11:07 p.m.
It's a question of priorities, isn't it? I can guarantee you that administration isn't hurting for cash.
Angry Moderate
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 10:51 p.m.
Meg: The hospital's budget is limited. An extra $1 for a nurse means $1 that is not available for someone else.
Meg
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 10:06 p.m.
Cici, ancillary staff absolutely are important, and in the hospital I came from, were unionized. But it's not a zero-sum game: valuing nurses doesn't mean that no one else is valued either.
Cici
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 8:39 p.m.
A lot of nurses ARE specialists and make triple digit salaries (anesthesists, etc.). If other UM health care employees, have made concessions certainly nurses should too. Bottom line is that laboratory workers, IT specialists, medical records specialists, radiology assistants, etc. are just as valuable to good patient care. Because many do not interact with patients thier work goes unrecognized and unacknowledged by the general public. And laboratories are the FIRST line of defense, not the nursing staff, though I am not in the least demeaning the roles they play. If the above employees have made concessions just because they may not be unionized, so should the nurses.
Angry Moderate
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 7:50 p.m.
So U of M cuts specialist pay, and the specialists move to other hospitals or states are offering better salaries. Then, the U is no longer able to offer the services provided by those specialist, which happen to be the big ticket procedures that subsidize the rest of the Health System's operations. Is that your plan?
microtini
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 6:30 p.m.
Asking nurses, or any other working group, to make concessions while handing over double-digit salary increases to administrators is unconscionable.
Kara Gavin
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 6:23 p.m.
Here is the full statement provided to AnnArbor.com today on behalf of U-M: Contract negotiations have been under way since April, and continue this week, between the University of Michigan Health System and the U-M Professional Nurse Council of the Michigan Nurses Association, the union representing nurses who provide care to patients at U-M Hospitals and Health Centers. More than 4,000 U-M nurses are covered by the current agreement. This includes staff nurses, advanced practice nurses (clinical nurse specialists, educational nurse specialists, nurse practitioners, nurse anesthetists and certified nurse midwives) at U-M Hospitals and Health Centers. The current contract, ratified in 2008, expires on June 30. Negotiating sessions are scheduled every day this week, and the goal is to reach a mutually acceptable agreement that addresses the interests each party has brought to the table. Patients and families can continue to be confident in the care they will receive at UMHS facilities during the negotiation period. In general, the University has an overall interest in reaching an agreement that includes market- and cost-competitive provisions. For example, U-M has proposed changes that would increase cost-sharing for health care benefits for employees represented by the UMPNC/MNA. Similar changes have already been made for non-union faculty and staff, and in other U-M labor contracts that have come up for negotiation during the past three years. We value our nurses highly, as they play a crucial role in the quality and safety of the care we provide at UMHS. We look forward to continued good-faith negotiations to reach a mutual agreement. - Tony Denton, chief operating officer, U-M Hospitals and Health Centers, and Executive Director, University Hospitals (posted by Kara Gavin, director, Public Relations, U-M Health System)
Mick52
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 3:02 p.m.
That is very common at UM Dennis and it is unfortunate. It is so insulting when you are told budgets limit your pay and then you find out the person who told you that received a significant raise. The waste collects at the top, not at the bottom. In regard to parking and other benefits you pay for, I believe the "rich" employees, those who can afford it the most, pay the same fees paid by lesser employees. So an increase in copays and parking is nothing to them. I would like to see that altered by pay scale so that the folks at the lower end of the pay scales can afford it better. Now that would be evidence they care for their employees. It is one thing to say it, but quite another to prove/show it.
Dennis
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 7:30 p.m.
What Tony does not say is that the other members of the university community has other benefits like 6 months of full pay then 6 months of half pay for short term disability. The nurses do not, and that is not being offered. He also does not mention that many in upper mgt did get double digit increases in pay while nurses have lost money over the past few contracts. Even when we thought we were getting a modest raise parking cost went up copays for insurance have gone up. Mr Denton The health center is making money, mgt has gotten great raises, the U is investing in lots of things, but not nurses
kmgeb2000
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 7:29 p.m.
"We value our nurses highly" - just not as much as we did yesterday. Too bad the patients think they (the nurses) are beyond description by words. They provide the immediate care while the doctors stand in the hall planning their trips to New Zealand. I fully admit this would be in bad taste if it were not for the fact this is a first hand experience.
Atticus F.
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 6:11 p.m.
My girlfriend is a nurse and she makes about 85,000/year. Off the record, I think she is over paid. It's also my understanding that nursing is so lucrative, that they are now actually resticting the number of people who can attend nursing school.
william wallace
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 4:53 p.m.
Atticus, your point though partially true, is off base. Average salary of a starting RN at UM is around 50k right now, I may be wrong on that. in order to get to 85K there has to be overtime which is limited. Do I think Nursing is overpaid, no. I don't believe they are underpaid either. When looking at the picture, one has to account for the benefits which are not plugged into the overall salary. There have been concessions made recently on the part of the health system to accomodate this. For instance, a family cost for health care HMO was around 240 dollars when I started 5 years ago. There was a change to allow people who make less to pay less for insurance. This stratification places people with the higher salaries( high level admin, Physicians, NP's, PA's, etc at the top end). What I am getting at, is that it's frustrating that everytime a contract is up, there are negotiations that occur that end up resulting in litigation or increase in salary, increase in benefits, etc. Perfect example is the Football Lockout. The idea that we have to constantly ask for more money is pure greed. Everyone harps on UMHS for how they treat their employees. I would challenge, if its so bad...leave. Go to SJMAA. See how they rank as far as benefits. Or Flock to other area health systems. The grass is not greener. Its not even greener in other states. This bickering will happen everytime there is a contract renewal. The union will demand more or else...its childish and frustrating. It pins people against each other instead of providing unity. UM is a good institution that takes care of their employees well. Is it perfect? No. It never will be. But in a state where you are surrounded by forclosure, debt, decreasing marketplace, decreasing population, decreasing everything...be happy with what you have. Be thankful that despite the fact that Detroit has lost an overall population nearing 50%, that the area is still able to support the jobs we have at UM.
Mick52
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 2:55 p.m.
Question for you Atticus. Is the $85k base pay, or is it the result of working lots of OT? Is your GF an RN or a nurse practitioner? $85k sounds like NP pay and thus is appropriate. For an RN, it seems high, but one can make that with OT which is commonly available in nursing. If your GF is a NP or makes that pay with OT she certainly deserves it. If it is her base pay, you may have a point if for example, she works for a Doc in private practice who charges high fees and is generous to his employees. One of the main causes of the HC cost issue is in private practice where Drs can run up their pay.
microtini
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 4:35 a.m.
Well, Atticus, you really put your foot in it this time. What does she see in you?
Maxwell
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 2:54 a.m.
Good luck with your gf Atticus - I think you need it!
John B.
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 11:21 p.m.
AF said: "I should also note that I've worked (at the hospital and?) I met my girlfriend while working in the hospital...And in my experence, alot (sic) of nurses were cranky, rude, and had a sense of entitlement. I also got a sense of hostility towards doctors from alot (sic) of nurses, as well as an attitude that their work is more imporant than the doctors." You have GOT to be kidding me, dude! If anything, precisely the opposite is true, to some extent. How bizarre....
Will Warner
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 10:25 p.m.
You brought this on yourself, Atticus. I can't help you. Good luck!
Meg
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 10:04 p.m.
Other nurses are qualified to judge nursing care. It makes as much sense as saying I'm qualified to know whether admin is doing their jobs. They should be evaluated by their peers, as should nurses. Nurses can evaluate other nurses. We can't evaluate physical therapists or physicians or respiratory therapists, because we don't do their jobs, and the reverse is true.
Dutch
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 9:31 p.m.
If hospital administrators worked had to work a month on the floor, I'd be more than happy to let them decide my salary. Since most of them never have nor will, no, hospital administrators are only worried about $$.
Atticus F.
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 8:30 p.m.
Meg, I would leave that decision to the people who are qualified...The hospital administrators. Or are they not qualified to make that decision either? If we all could choose what wage is appropriate for our proffesion, I would choose to make a million/year for delivering hospital supplies.
Meg
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 8:21 p.m.
I work because I need the money, like everyone else. I'm lucky enough to also do work I find satisfying. That doesn't mean I should have my work undervalued. Nursing is a profesion. Pay us like one. Also, you're not qualified to assess if a nurse is worth what she's paid. You're not educated or experienced in the discipline, licensed by the state or board-certified in a specialty. Just as doctors are not qualified to assess the value of any individual nurse's work, nor are you. Having an opinion doesn't mean you're qualified to make an assessment of relative economic value of labor.
Atticus F.
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 7:55 p.m.
The only sexist assumption is made by you...The assumption that women are nurses, and men are doctors.
Terri
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 7:54 p.m.
Atticus, Meg never said nursing is "terrible." And, just out of curiosity, when's the last time you asked a doctor whether they were working for money or out of the goodness of their hearts? Sexist assumptions are so 2009.
Atticus F.
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 7:49 p.m.
Meg, you're comparing apples to Oranges. I never said I was qualified to be a nurse, or do a liver transplant for that matter. There are obviously more people applying for nursing degrees than the system can handle...If it's such a terrible, underpaid job as you claim, then why are there so many people applying? And if in fact they are doing it to help people, then money shouldn't be such a concern... So which is it, are you doing it for the money? Or are you doing it to help people.
Meg
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 7:44 p.m.
I've met a lot of surgeons. Does that make me qualified to do a liver transplant? Atticus, backpedaling is cute, but pointless. Own your insults.
Atticus F.
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 7:42 p.m.
I should also note that I've worked I met my girlfriend while working in the hospital...And in my experence, alot of nurses were cranky, rude, and had a sense of entitlement. I also got a sense of hostility towards doctors from alot of nurses, as well as an attitude that their work is more imporant than the doctors. I'm not trying to step on any toes or insult anyone, just giving my personal experience as someone who used to come into contact with alot of nurses.
John B.
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 7 p.m.
Nursing pay is determined by skill level and amount of experience. Skill level requires (expensive) education. Experience requires time on the job. The top level of nursing is generally Nurse Anesthetist, so if your soon-to-be-former GF is making that amount per year, she either has a lot of skill, a lot of experience, or both. She is probably underpaid and overworked.
a2miguy
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 6:48 p.m.
Off the record?? Dude, you just posted it on a public website read by thousands daily. I think you need to rethink your definition of 'off the record', and your girlfriend needs to rethink her future with you.
a2joe
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 6:47 p.m.
I am a proud to be a U-M nurse, and my response to you Atticus is this: 1. does your girlfriend know how little you think of her and her profession? It's easy to hide behind an anonymous web-posting; please tell her how getting kicked, punched, slapped and cursed, along with the daily risk of contracting AIDS, Hepatitis, C.diff and other illnesses is somehow not worthy of at least $85k if in fact that is what she makes. 2. Nursing school admissions are not being RESTRICTED because "nursing is so lucrative", as much as I would like to be bringing home a lucrative salary, rather because of the limited number of nursing faculty and clinical spaces available to accomodate aspiring nursing students. Check out how the applicant-to-opening ratio of any nursing school to see how under-funded nursing truly is. Do yourself a favor, Atticus, and just quietly give thanks the next time a nurse tends to your needs. For being the significant other of a nurse I find your ignorance stunning. Amongst us over-paid nurses we call such prevalent ignorance "job security". So thank YOU.
Margaret Smith
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 6:38 p.m.
WOW! Your GF needs to dump you. You have no idea what type of work she does and how important it is to our patients. The nurse is at the bedside taking care of patients 24/7, helping them through life and death, getting healthy, moving on with their lives. You have no idea the commitment and stress a nurse goes through for his/her patients. It is difficult to put a number on this type of work.
Meg
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 6:30 p.m.
No. There are not enough nurse educators, which is why there's a bottleneck. Also, nursing care is most predictive of good outcomes in hospitalized patients. Nursing care is cheap for the amount and significance of the work we do. I assume you have a degree in nursing that would allow you to assess the skill and value of the work your girlfriend does? If not, why do you think you're qualified?
Tom Todd
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 5:43 p.m.
The Medical Business is only going to increase with the aging population. Medical costs to the public are always increasing. We are not talking about less market share for the domestic automakers, nor are discussing less property taxes for municipalities or counties and cities needing EFM's. This discussion regarding taking and or paying middle class educated nurses less money for the sake of it for so called economic reasons is downright awful. This union needs to hold it ground at all costs! How in Gods name can a hospital like U of M ask Nurses to take Any Concessions.
Ken Boyd
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 2:38 p.m.
This is exactly why the health care segment of the economy will collapse. Currently, we are at 17% of GDP for healthcare, Some ecomomists believe that no economy can support more than 20 to 22% for healthcare. Eventually this field will destroy the wealth creating sector of the economy, and with no further new resources to support it, employment, pay, and technology will dissipate. This is no different than the real estate bubble that we all have seen play out in recent years.Yes, I know about the aging population and all of its demands. Simply stated, it will not matter.Collapse is inevitable .
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 5:17 p.m.
Yes. While the doctors at UM hospitals earn hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, let's pay the people who actually interface with patients at little as humanly possible. Has the governor taken charged of the UM hospital system? Good Night and Good Luck
Oregon39_Michigan7
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 8:14 p.m.
Angry, you make a valid argument for why MDs should be paid what they make: Very hard to get into medical school, lots of time spend in school, a high cost of school, residency, etc. Your theory also applies to RNs who have a BSN
Mick52
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 2:45 p.m.
Dang. Ed is right. Sort of. Nursing schools have waiting lists. One reason is the lack of people to teach them. One can make more nursing than teaching nursing. It is true there is a shortage of Drs, but the important issue is the lack of primary care Drs., which leads to people going to the ER for care because they cannot afford insurance. One idea bandied about to cut costs and make up for the lack of Drs is to increase the number of nurse practitioners. Should demand equal higher pay? No. Nurses generally are paid appropriately. And can zoom their pay with OT that is commonly available. Also one reason there is a higher demand is that many employers allow nurses to work part time and thus you need a lot of nurses. Another reason for the high wait lists is simply that there are jobs. Nursing is one of those fields where there are available openings. Ed is also right about who really takes care of you in the hospitals. There is nothing like good nurses. You have to treat them right and UM needs to improve on that, treat lower paid employees much better and reign in the upper paid people who are treated as royalty. Funny how every time contracts come up there are fiscal shortfalls at the U.
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 11:36 a.m.
"Obviously, the nursing salaries are ALREADY high enough to convince people to go into nursing." That's not the point and has never been the point of my comment. 50 million people might want to become nurses. But we don't have 50 million nurses. We have, by your admission, a shortage of nurses. Shortage of resources + high demand for those resources = high cost for those resources. It's Econ 101. And no matter how obtuse your reply to that might be, it does not change the fact that : Shortage of resources + high demand for those resources = high cost for those resources. Just because you have an ax to grind with nurses (as indicated by the content of your nearly 50 posts on this article as of 730AM on 6/29) does not mean that the laws of economics get suspended. Shortage of resources + high demand for those resources = high cost for those resources. Good Night and Good Luck
Angry Moderate
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 1:56 a.m.
Obviously, the nursing salaries are ALREADY high enough to convince people to go into nursing. That is why there is a waiting list for classes. Raising salaries further when there are already more people trying to become nurses than we are able to educate is nonsensical. I'm not even sure what you're trying to debate with me anymore; you're making obvious statements that don't respond to my points. Good night & good luck to you.
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 1:43 a.m.
"The U can offer nurses $10,000,000 per year, and they still won't be able to find any if the people who want to become nurses are stuck on a waiting list to get their degree." No, but nurses all over the country would quit their jobs and come to the U of M, which is precisely what supply and demand tells us would happen. Pay to meet the supply and the demand and you will be able to hire all of the nurses you want. Someone else might be shorthanded, but you will have nurses. What is it about Econ 101 is it that you do not get? Good Night and Good Luck
Angry Moderate
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 1:12 a.m.
johnnya2, I am aware that offering the nurses too little money will result in the positions not being filled. That is obvious and barely tangential to the issue at hand. My point is that you CAN NOT increase the supply of nurses simply by raising salaries as long as the supply of the necessary input of nursing education is insufficient to train enough people to fill the positions. The U can offer nurses $10,000,000 per year, and they still won't be able to find any if the people who want to become nurses are stuck on a waiting list to get their degree. The state and the schools can simply make nursing education more available (getting people off of waitlists and into the classroom), thereby increasing the supply of nurses without increasing salaries. The U could also eliminate many nursing positions and replace them with non-nurses, notwithstanding the union's interference. Get it? The hospital could say "Take a pay cut, or we'll fire 20% of you and replace you with nurse aids." People are misunderstanding the nature of the nursing shortage as well...it is a long-term problem. It's not like there are no nurses looking for jobs right now: I bet all of the job postings for nurses get a lot of applications. And Ghost, if you believe that the hospital administrators are "RepubliKans" despite the fact that public records prove they only donate money to Democrats, then I'm the one that's wasting keystrokes.
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 12:41 a.m.
@johnnya2: You're wasting your breath--or in this case, your keystrokes. Good Night and Good Luck
johnnya2
Wed, Jun 29, 2011 : 12:04 a.m.
Angry moderate, All of your nursing shortage due to schools has no relation to the facts. If there is a shortage of nurses, and these nurses want MORE money. the hospital will be required to give it. Let me make it simple for you. The nurse makes $50k per year. The U says, we want to pay $40k per year. The nurse KNOWS there is already a nursing shortage (reason does not matter). The nurse says, no thanks, I won't work for $40k per year. UMHS needs nurses. Since there is already a shortae of nurses, how will UM find nurses to replace those that decided their offer was not good enough? There is NO SUPPLY. That means to lure new nurses the pay MUST in fact be higher. This basic concept is Econ 101. It is not open for debate. The cause of the shortage is not important. The nurses have a skill in high demand with low supply. If one day there are more nurses than positions available, the nurses will not be able to demand more. Until that day comes, the nurses hold the cards and UMHS can beg, borrow or plead, but the nurses can say pay us or we walk. Pure supply an demand in the labor market. It is why lawyers pay sucks currently. The supply far outpaces the demand.
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 11:31 p.m.
1bit: Then, as I said, I guess the basic laws of economics don't apply to nurses. AM: Proof of my assertion about the hospital's leadership? There is none. Just call it woman's intuition that, as a rule, people who make more money in a year than the average American will make in ten years tend to be Republican. But, whether or not that is true, it doesn't suspend the law of supply and demand. Shortage of a resource + high demand for that resource = high cost for that resource. Or don't you get that?? Good Night and Good Luck
1bit
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 11:04 p.m.
ERMG: It is not unfair to ask nurses to take the same benefit cuts that doctors and other non-union labor have taken. Obviously, the nurses union can reject that and bargain. The point of Mr. Karebian is well-taken, however, as his assertion that these cuts are coming at the expense of new buildings and centers. And the health system made about $44million last year. John B: There is a shortage of primary care physicians - but mostly in rural areas. The rest of what you are spouting is uninformed rhetoric. AM: +1 for being right.
Angry Moderate
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 10:46 p.m.
Sorry townie, basic economics aren't really up for a vote. Obviously you aren't an unbiased judge anyway based on your past comments :) And Ghost, I am still waiting on your evidence that the Hospital is run by "RepubliKans." The fact that Doug Strong, the CEO, only donated to Democrat campaigns in the last election would seem to undercut your claim.
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 10:34 p.m.
Yes, I've noted that RepublKans like the laws of supply and demand--except when it applies to public servants. Good Night and Good Luck
townie54
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 10:33 p.m.
sorry angry but ghost has won this debate(Shortage + high demand = higher price)
Angry Moderate
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 10:28 p.m.
I've explained why the nursing shortage doesn't require salaries to go up enough times for anyone reading in good faith to understand it. You're free to give a nurse your own $$ if you like, but hospital and fiscal policy need to be based on sound economics, not over-simplifications.
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 10:13 p.m.
AM: You are reading thing that are not there. You said there was a shortage of nurses. I replied that, if that is the case, the law of supply and demand requires that wages go up (as opposed to going down, which is what the U is doing). Nowhere--NOWHERE--did I say that raising nurse pay would solve the nursing shortage. EVERY post I have made is about supply and demand. Nowhere did I say anything about how to solved the nursing shortage. Good Night and Good Luck
Angry Moderate
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 9:46 p.m.
Backtracking on your claim that raising wages would fix the nursing shortage, I see.
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 9:42 p.m.
You are comparing proverbial apples and oranges. Shortage + high demand = higher price It's Economics 101. Yes, I understand that to produce more nurses we need more spots in nursing schools. And, when that happens, increased supply should lead to lower prices (i.e. wages). But, UNTIL that happens, Econ 101 rules. Limited supply + high demand = high price for the resource Good Night and Good Luck
Angry Moderate
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 9:16 p.m.
I will try to explain another way, since you're not understanding properly. There are 2 separate markets here-- the market for nurses and the market for nursing education. Each of these markets has its own supply & demand curves. Nursing education is an input into "producing" a nurse, just like tires are an input into producing a car. If there is a shortage of tires (say, because they get recalled, or because there is a tornado at the tire factory, whatever), then you can not produce enough cars. There are 2 ways to resolve the shortage of cars. One is to raise the price of cars. This solves the problem because some people say "Nevermind, cars are too expensive now. I won't buy one." The quantity demanded decreases, and the existing supply of tires is now big enough to meet it. This is like raising the wage of nurses to clear their labor market; the hospital says "Nevermind, nurses are too expensive now. We won't hire them." But the hospital isn't free to do that because it has an obligation to provide healthcare to the community. It hires the nurses anyway, and it's budget gets worse and worse. The other method is to fix the supply chain problem with tires-- change the design, build more tire factories, however you want to do it. Now, there are enough tires to satisfy the current level of demand for cars. This is like expanding the nursing school at WCC so that there are enough spots in classes for the people on the waitlist.
Angry Moderate
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 9 p.m.
"Nurses" and "spots in nursing schools" are not the same resource. Increasing the wage of nurses increases the supply of nurses. It does not increase the supply of spots in nursing schools. Your "solution" would make the problem worse. Obviously, paying nurses more would make MORE people want to sign up for nursing school. But the same number of spots for students would be available. This would simply make the waitlist longer. The salary of nurses is already so attractive that people are willing to wait years to go to nursing school. When there is bad weather in Florida and they can't grow enough oranges, raising the price of orange juice clears the market by reducing the quantity demanded, not by increasing the supply.
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 8:50 p.m.
I read your post completely, thank you. A shortage is a shortage, whatever its cause. Law of supply and demand: if a resource is scarce and in high demand, one must be prepared to pay more for it. Good Night and Good Luck
Angry Moderate
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 8:16 p.m.
Apparently you didn't read my post. There is a nurse shortage, but it is not caused by low salaries. As I already said, it is caused by a lack of spots in the schools. This is proven by the waitlist at many nursing schools (go to WCC's Nursing website if you don't believe it.) Obviously, raising their salaries according to supply & demand would make the problem worse. More people would want to become nurses for the higher salaries, and they would apply to nursing school. But the schools don't have enough spots open, so the waitlists would get longer. The salaries are high enough to attract applicants, or else they wouldn't be lining up and waiting multiple semesters just to get a spot in the required classes. You can not solve the nursing shortage by raising salaries when the bottleneck in the system is too few slots in nursing schools to support all the qualified applicants even at the current salary level.
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 7:57 p.m.
AM: If there is such a shortage of nurses as you imply (wait lists at all of the nursing schools), the law of supply and demand requires their salaries to go up, not down. Good Night and Good Luck
Angry Moderate
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 7:43 p.m.
John B.: The nursing shortage is caused by a lack of capacity in nursing schools, not dissatisfaction with wages (evidence: waitlists full of qualified applicants to nursing schools, such as at WCC.) The claim that the U.S. is graduating too many new doctors is absurd and not comparable to the situation with law schools. Any American college student can get into a law school and take out loans for it (even if the degree is useless.) Very, very few American college students are able to get into a medical school. On top of that, the AMA artificially restricts the supply of med school spots so that many qualified people are unable to attend. Check out the NY Times website-- they've been running many articles about problems with both medical and legal education lately. U of M has no power to change the system of per-procedure compensation, so it's not relevant to this discussion.
John B.
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 7:30 p.m.
AM: Vastly-overpaid specialist doctors and the system that pays them by the procedure (which encourages far too many procedures that are not needed) are a primary source of our bloated healthcare costs in this country. Last I heard, we are graduating too many doctors, just like the situation with lawyers, but the problem is a shortage of general practitioners, because they are underpaid, whereas the specialists are overpaid. Therefore, most newly-minted Docs. want to be a specialist (not surprisingly). And there are shortages in nursing as well....
Angry Moderate
Tue, Jun 28, 2011 : 7:15 p.m.
You obviously don't work at the hospital...the doctors and everyone else have *already* made this concession on cost sharing. P.S.- we already have a doctor shortage. How are you going to get people to get top grades in hard science majors, get top scores on the MCAT, spend $250,000 plus interest on medical school, and go through residency, without paying them hundreds of thousands of dollars a year? Funny how the same people who say we need to increase teachers' salaries to get more and better teachers think the opposite about other professions.