Bill would require Michigan students to recite Pledge of Allegiance every day

debling

Thu, Nov 3, 2011 : 12:55 a.m.

Freedom isn't free. You've heard it before. The right to be left alone to freely choose is one precious right that must always be vigorously defended. If you wish to say the pledge, do so with pride. If you oppose being forced to say it, sit down and refuse. Be an American and take pride in standing up for what you believe in and what your previous countrymen died and fought for. The right to be free.

Cheryl S

Wed, Nov 2, 2011 : 3:02 p.m.

I don't care if people say the pledge of allegiance in class or not, but making a bill about this right now seems to be a big waste of time and money in a state that is in such trouble.

Lily'sMom

Wed, Nov 2, 2011 : 4:21 a.m.

Uh-Oh--I can see it coming...an amendment to the bill which would mandate all children saying the pledge to have their guns in holsters in full view. And I know that if this was mandated by President Obama, all those conservative parents would keep the kids home until the pledge was finished.

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Wed, Nov 2, 2011 : 1:18 a.m.

Another great example of Republicans being against government intrusion into our lives . . . except when the are for it. Hypocrisy, thy name is Republican. Good Night and Good Luck

Jamie Riddle

Wed, Nov 2, 2011 : 1:14 a.m.

I used to recite it everyday, and I believe there is nothing wrong with kids nowadays having to recite it.

David Paris

Wed, Nov 2, 2011 : 12:49 a.m.

I didn't read all the posts here, so I hope I'm not being redundant. "A bill introduced in the Michigan Senate would require every public school student in Michigan to recite the Pledge of Allegiance every day, the Grand Rapids Press" But, as you can see, this law would only be required for public schools. As this law will not be required for either Home Schooled (Thank God!), nor parochial, or charter schools, I think Senator Kahn is acknowledging that public schools are a Democrat domain, that any decent Republican would send their children to one of the latter three. So, in a way to indoctrinate the children of Democrats (as if they weren't really Americans, as Sarah Palin has implied) into the Foxpublican way, why not make The Pledge of Allegiance law?! In God We Trust.

Seriously??

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 11:20 p.m.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty, and justice for all.

the thing is...

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 9 p.m.

1. This is an excellent opportunity for American citizens to fight against the intrusion of "Big Government" and unfunded mandates into their everyday lives. 2. The Supreme Court of the United States has already weighed in on this issue (as many posters have previously noted, and thank you for doing so). 3. Jobs?

Kathleen Giesting

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 8:48 p.m.

Why do our lawmakers continue to waste their time on unenforceable laws? We cannot afford officers to check for the presence and display of flags (which many districts couldn't afford to buy and display) -- and we can't ask teachers (or substitute teachers) to force students to recite it -- or what, report them for ?? to whom???

Paul Epstein

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 7:19 p.m.

Utterly inane!! In actual good countries, people know theirs is good without having to force it. That's the first sign of insecurity, and frankly it's understandable these days. (Or, otoh, maybe our legislators are just bored and need something to pass the time, which would be to create, say, 26,337 new frivolous laws).

4mytown

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 6:11 p.m.

We have many international students in the US. Many of these non-citizens are here temporarily, as their parents are working here for Ford, GM, Chrysler. Why would we want to mandate that foreign children, who are not citizens, recite our pledge?? Their parents are paying taxes, and so of course, their children deserve a space in our classrooms. They often inject new ideas, and some may eventually become US citizens. Does the Republican state senator Kahn think that US children, living abroad, should be required to cite a pledge of allegiance to a foreign flag? I wish these senators and congress people would focus on useful, practical things and quit wasting our tax dollars with their grandstanding.

guyfroma2mi

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 5:57 p.m.

This kind of meaningless symbolism and false "patriotism"- usually by those that have very warped concepts of "Freedom" and "Liberty" - is not at all what this country is supposed to be about. Freedom of the majority to impose their beliefs on the minority, and liberty for those that look, act, and believe like them- for the rest, they're constantly trying to take away personal liberty, even proposing half a dozen "improvements" to the Constitution to do so). Forcing people to recite a pledge? How about working to create a nation that everyone feels welcome, valued, and proud to be a part of so they want to do it voluntarily- instead of constantly pitting us against each other? And are we going to exempt the hundreds of thousands of foreign nationals here temporarily for work or school, to demand that they or their kids pledge allegiance to another country? How would these people feel if their kids on a foreign exchange program were "required" to pledge allegiance to the French flag?

Billy Buchanan

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 5:40 p.m.

Ultra-left Wing Democrats will be glad to jump all over this bill. They'll start slinging their arrows at this bill with such a salvo you'd think they're the only ones who knows what good or bad for our great Nation. Say the Pledge.

whatsupwithMI

Wed, Nov 2, 2011 : 12:48 a.m.

Members of the cult that has taken over the Grand Old Party will wet themselves thinking that criticism of this inane bill means that they will be martyrs.

Chase Ingersoll

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 5:20 p.m.

As a member of the Washtenaw County GOP, I have suggested that we stop the Pledge of Allegiance and in its place recite the Oath of Office, pledging to uphold the Constitution and defend it against both foreign and domestic enemies. Of course if we were to really uphold the Constitution, and arrest its enemies, Congress would be a body of two legislators - Justin Amash and Ron Paul.

Roadman

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 9:41 p.m.

Both Congressmen have local connections. Ron Paul did his residency as an ob-gyn at Henry Ford Hospital and Justin Amash graduated from U-M Law School.

JR

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 3:16 p.m.

I had to say the pledge of allegiance as a child growing up here in Ann Arbor, and I did not have a problem with it. However, I can see an issue with making it mandatory, it kind of sounds like brainwashing and not really in the same vein as a country build on freedom of choice. I can also see the problem with the god line in the pledge since once again we were founded as a country base of freedom of religion. Interesting how a great deal of the comments from those claiming to be patriotic are willing to be the first to trample over another's citizens freedom and rights just because they are not their own views of beliefs, perhaps if they read the comments they will understand what standing up for freedom means, it means fighting for freedom and choice of others who you do not agree with, not only because this is the right thing to do but because one day you might be the minority voice or opinion. I think the most important thing about this bill is the timing, why is it that the GOP politicians always have to raise the flag or patriotism in hard times instead of actually working on bills that will create jobs and make the state a better place to live. It is fairly oblivious to me that instead of actually working and coming up with solutions to the real problems in this state, the GOP would rather wave the flag and hide behind Old Glory, by doing so they distract us from the real issues and win easy political points. Smoke and mirrors, by most of the comments I can see it will work as usual. As members of this state and country, let's try and focus on the real problems and issues, not let ourselves get sidetracked by this oblivious pandering to the pride we all hold for this great nation.

Doug

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 3:07 p.m.

I think it would be great to have school children recite the Pledge of Allegiance every day, but it must be against the Constitution to make it mandatory!

CommonThought

Wed, Nov 2, 2011 : 3:30 a.m.

West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette -- 1943 <a href="http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0319_0624_ZO.html" rel='nofollow'>http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0319_0624_ZO.html</a>

Tru2Blu76

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 2:58 p.m.

Hmm, seems to me we've been living for a few decades with the idea that loyalty is worthless - and counter to "self interest in a free society." Amazing really: when you look back to what can be seen as the "super patriotic Fifties" - back then, there was no "off shoring" - companies were expected to be patriotic too - and certainly society was more stable than it became from the Sixties onward. At least in the k-6 schools I attended then, it was standard (and unquestioned) practice to recite the Pledge of Allegiance with the US Flag on display. No one died as a result! Children (me and my classmates) "got the impression" that this country is valuable for a reason and deserves our support and protection. It was all about freedom, too. Many of us had fathers who had fought in WW II (and some fathers fought in Korea). So yeah, it all made sense. I'm a political independent and generally, I'm against what the Republicans do and stand for. But I'm not foolish enough to believe that Republicans (or Democrats) are wrong - or right - all the time. It's being loyal to an ideology which is really toxic. There's a dynamic balance to Reality and ideologies are set formulas which enforce the status quo or seek to enforce "their version" of how to cope with dynamic reality. The result is fragmentation and endless debates about things which, for the most part, were settled ages ago. One thing of that kind is: freedom. If America and Americans want to stand up for freedom: then there should be a consensus, not endless rehashing based on ideology. Teach kids to practice allegiance to something bigger than their own self interest: a free, stable society with equal opportunity.

hermhawk

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 2 p.m.

To pledge allegiance to the flag is making the flag an idol. The flag is NOT God.

Tru2Blu76

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 3:11 p.m.

Just a tip: God isn't God, either. No one knows what or who God is. God is without form or substance, the United States and the US flag have form and substance: which require of us work to maintain. Real world vs Unreal World, get it?

Robert Northrup

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 1:53 p.m.

Give them a nice history lesson too, by having them recite the pledge like American school kids did in the 30s: with one arm raised in the "Roman" salute, and without the words "under God" (added in 1950s after lobbying by Knights of Columbus). Here's an unedited clip of the Pledge from Frank Kapra's 1945 propaganda series "Why We Fight": <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpScApJXoyk" rel='nofollow'>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpScApJXoyk</a> If nothing else the pledge serves as a good example of a run-on sentence for English lessons. It's funny that we don't hold minors up to age 17 responsible for most contracts they sign, because they aren't considered mature enough to be responsible, and yet we're going to pretend that a five-year old or eight-year-old can reliably promise their political allegiance? How many of them could define the terms in the pledge, like "allegiance" or "republic", or understand the archaic phrasing like "for which it stands"? Getting rid of the imperial salute was a good first step, but to remove the last elements of fascism from the pledge would require not having kids recite it at all.

grye

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 1:36 p.m.

This was a requirement when I went to school. Things were much better then. Maybe some sense of patriotism would be beneficial.

eom

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 10:58 p.m.

How might reciting the pledge on a daily basis accomplish this?

vicki honeyman

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 1:35 p.m.

let's see: funds are spent to supply at least two flags for every school in the state, or those funds could supply food for every school lunchroom or bring back state-funded cuts to curriculum such as sports and art classes.

sun runner

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 1:06 p.m.

After 230+ comments, there's not much left to say, but I will throw my two cents on the pile nonetheless. When I was in elementary school in the San Francisco Bay Area throughout the 1980s we recited the Pledge of Allegiance ("under God" and all) every day at the beginning of class. When I was in first grade, six -seven years old, it was a bunch of words we parroted back at our teacher line by line. It meant nothing to me. As the years and grades went by and the words had long since been memorized, it still meant very little. It was just something we did at the beginning of class with our hands over our hearts. It didn't make me Proud To Be An American(TM). It didn't make me feel patriotic. It didn't make me feel much of anything at all. It just was. When I moved to suburban Cleveland, Ohio, in middle school, I noticed that the Pledge was recited once a week. By the time I graduated from high school, it wasn't done at all. No one cared. That said, I think that REQUIRING public schoolkids to recite the Pledge every day is utterly ridiculous.

redwingshero

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 12:57 p.m.

True freedom is found in Jesus Christ, not a pledge.

Steve Pepple

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 12:55 p.m.

A couple of comments containing personal attacks against other commenters have been removed.

sellers

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 12:54 p.m.

Why don't we mandate a State flag versus a US flag? Our school systems are locally run so why are we pledging to the US government? We should pledge to the local taxpayers for offering to provide for our education -- or to the teachers who spend their hard efforts and sometimes own dimes to make our lives better and build our future! "I pledge respect to my teacher of the school district I live in. And to the support staff and the citizens of my town, I thank you for the opportunity to learn, grow, and become a valued and respected citizen of our community. " Does this sound silly? Does it sound silly only because it's not traditional? What about allegiance to a flag? What does that really suggest anyway, why would a citizen not be allegiant by default? Do not you gain allegiance by being a great leader? Did Steve Jobs ask Apple Employees to say a pledge? How about M.L.K.? Mr. Ghandi ? I don't mind the pledge as a pledge, and as a religious man the word God in there is not the concern, I look deeper and say - are we federalizing our students and missing how they really are contributors to their local community? Did I miss something and are we a country of disloyalty ?

the thing is...

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 8:56 p.m.

Your "Pledge of Respect" made me a little teary... great idea!

clownfish

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 12:52 p.m.

Basically what it seems to come down to is some here prefer that the State mandate citizens recite a pledge written by a Socialist. Fascinating! Fascinating that the most vociferous support for this comes from those that publicly decry socialism and government mandates. Any ideas where this logical disconnect comes from? Part of it must be an ignorance of history, it looks like a lot of people do not know who Francis Bellamy was. Maybe if we spent more time teaching and less time reciting?

David

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 12:48 p.m.

so, to pledge to a free society it is going to be required to recite a pledge REQUIRED seems like I remember things like that from the Soviet Union, North Korea, and China and of course our state has no more pressing issues seems like Republicans always like to focus on forcing and controlling other's lives while loudly proclaiming less government interference I suppose that means only less government interference in corporate operations and profits

Jerome Blue

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 12:41 p.m.

You have got to be kidding me. They should at some age know it, but time a break!

Jaime

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 12:33 p.m.

I just shows that the moronic Republicans can't do anything to create jobs like they said they would so they push dumb social agendas.

clownfish

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 1:02 p.m.

Good Point Real American! Obama has continued tax cuts, bail outs of Wall Street, GITMO, two wars (he is asking that they be paid for, that is a change), renditions and has increased oil/gas exploration. Quite a continuation of the previous president, so I assume you support him for these continuation of GOP rules and policies? Maybe a short history lesson for you as well, look up the following: ENRON, Savings and Loan bailouts 1980's (The cost of that crisis amounted to 3.2 percent of GDP during the Reagan/Bush era), Iran/Contra and maybe a gander at who passed TARP? There is a movement out there to oppose the recipients of TARP on Wall Street, maybe you could join them if you are opposed to that kind of thing. But, we digress.

Real American

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 12:51 p.m.

Republicans? Hey Jaime, try the Dems on that one. They and your great president BO have given you the change you asked for. That's all you have left in your pocket now that you got your wish,......change. Let's invest more millions in companies that go belly up in less than a year...Nice job Dem!

Marilyn Wilkie

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 10:02 a.m.

I recall reciting the pledge every day in grade school in Ann Arbor. I can't recall when we stopped doing it though. I'm not sure that it really "meant" anything after a while though. It seems that it became something that we said by rote, not really thinking about the words. Fanatic patriotism, like fanatic religion, seems to breed misery. Now that I am older I realize that I can't be proud of all that has been done in the name of patriotism in my country. On the other hand I understand how fortunate I am to have been born here and that people have been willing to put their lives on the line for all of us. I guess that I feel that reciting the Pledge does not necessarily make a good citizen.

sellers

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 12:56 p.m.

I too recall reciting, and then poof, we stopped (in Metro Detroit). I didn't miss it, I didn't respect the flag or country any less (arguably more as I was not droning through a pledge) .

Michael Holt

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 4:54 a.m.

It doesn't state that you are pledging allegiance to god! I didn't say it everytime when I was in school in the 50's and 60's and was not afraid of being punished.To make this a god thing is small-minded.

sellers

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 12:57 p.m.

Agreed - it's not indicating ally with God, but only suggested that God exists.

obviouscomment

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 4:02 a.m.

I don't know if this has already been mentioned since I don't have time to read 200+ comments, but it would be of interest to some to look at the Supreme Court Case of Minersville School District v. Gobitis: <a href="http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=310&invol=586" rel='nofollow'>http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=310&invol=586</a> Basically this is a case where the supreme court ruled that children cannot be expelled for not saluting the flag. So even if this bill is passed, the students should still be able to refuse to salute if they or their families wish.

CommonThought

Wed, Nov 2, 2011 : 3:19 a.m.

see also. West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette -- <a href="http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0319_0624_ZO.html" rel='nofollow'>http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0319_0624_ZO.html</a>

eom

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 10:55 p.m.

Don't forget their teachers too!

Sparty

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 3:47 a.m.

It's been ruled unconstitutional for decades, but whats a little thing like a constitution and a law to a tea drinking republican, except when they rant and rave that a Democrat is violating it somehow.

Sparty

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 3:29 a.m.

Jobs? Have they forgotten about them? Roads and other infrastructure? Energy initiatives? Education? Jobs? Jobs? Jobs?

clownfish

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 1:48 p.m.

RA: <a href="http://www.thefourthbranch.com/bush-tax-cuts-cost-329220-for-each-job-created/" rel='nofollow'>http://www.thefourthbranch.com/bush-tax-cuts-cost-329220-for-each-job-created/</a> We did not have .com then, but I wonder what your reaction the the Bush Stimulus was then?

LRF

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 2:55 a.m.

If you don't want your kid to pay respect to the flag of the country that is making their education possible then send the kid to a private school or like another poster said "don't let the door hit you on the way out'! Nobody is holding you captive! Respect our flag or grab your rags!

eom

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 10:54 p.m.

'can't they'

eom

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 10:54 p.m.

In order to respect their country, they need to be learning how to read, write, add and subtract. They need to learn about their state history, the geography of the state and world. They need to learn how to be helpful, respectful and responsible. They need to learn SO much during their day, why can' they say the pledge at home? What a wonderful FAMILY tradition!

sh1

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 2:58 p.m.

If you want your kid to say the Pledge, what's wrong with doing it at home?

Homeland Conspiracy

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 2:50 a.m.

<a href="http://www.redskelton.com/PLEDGE.htm" rel='nofollow'>http://www.redskelton.com/PLEDGE.htm</a>

Somargie

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 2:47 a.m.

mmmmm, and this will somehow make students smarter, reduce class sizes, increase state funding to schools that was stolen by the state, stop the brain drain of teachers, college students and professionals... Is this yet another decree by the Grand Rapids Devos Clan that couldn't win a fair election to destroy public education? If you can't win fairly, then rule by money & political control....

chucklk

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 2:23 a.m.

Pledging allegiance to the flag never bothered me since I knew that the flags that I pledged to had neither voice nor intelligence with which to ask anything of me. A mere piece of cloth with stars colored red white and blue. Hah. Fools, down on their knees idolizing a piece of cloth. Get real and demand that people pledge allegiance to the usa, or to the constitution, or to the government, or to the congress with their approval rating of close to 5%, or maybe in spite of their rating. yeeee haw!

Tru2Blu76

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 3:17 p.m.

What you say is only superficially correct: there're plenty of people who work every day (even in legislatures) to preserve the Constitution and who do honor the US Flag as a unifying icon representing something of real value which most of the world doesn't have. If you want to fight the politicians who act counter to the Constitution, then go after their corporate "sponsors" who now own them.

Real American

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 12:55 p.m.

Hey ease Up-Chuck. Men and I mean Real Men have died for that flag. . . . . just show a little respect please.

townie54

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 2:07 a.m.

this is easily defeated in court

Jon Saalberg

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 1:25 a.m.

And the reason for this is what...other than to assuage those who feel god must be imposed on every one of us? I feel confident in my belief that it will not make my children enjoy school any more than they already do. Some say it is not a big deal - enforced devotional behavior is certainly a big deal.

eom

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 12:50 a.m.

Let me get this straight...funding for public education is being slashed on a daily basis, we can't afford the basic teaching tools, yet we are going to be FORCED to purchase a myriad of flags for each school/classroom in the state? Then, just to make it hurt a little more, we're going to force kids in the land of the free to recite something on a daily basis that has nothing to do with our curriculum and will do nothing to help them in any way educationally. I'm baffled. I'm sad. I'm disappointed in our current government officials and wish they would focus on the things that matter. This isn't one of them.

eom

Wed, Nov 2, 2011 : 12:38 a.m.

"breathing defiance into your children by forcing them to defy what is asked of them" How dare you? Have you been in my classroom? Do you see the hours I spend working with my kids? The money I personally invest in their future because the state isn't? I EARNED my job. Yes, I have tenure, but more importantly, I have former students who write, call, text, email and visit me. Their time with me meant something - to both of us. I do my job because I am passionate and dedicated, it doesn't have anything to do with tenure. Tenure isn't what makes me stay late, come early and spend weekends working. Tenure has nothing to do with my every day job. Real American? I certainly hope not.

SFK

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 3:51 p.m.

@Real American I'd like to know how you're qualified to evaluate the job teachers are doing in the AAPS. Since you claim MOST of them have their jobs because of tenure I'm assuming you've spent all your waking time observing and evaluating the 1,100 teachers in the AAPS. My guess is your errant claim is just opinionated conjecture based on an ignorance of what really goes on in our city's classrooms. My children have great teachers. Peace!

sh1

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 2:56 p.m.

Real American, it would be different if EOM was insisting YOU use a peace symbol as YOUR sign. But, I believe she's advocating for freedom to choose one's own form of expression, a right given to her by the First Amendment of our Constitution.

Real American

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 1 p.m.

And you have the gall to show a peace sign as your symbol? You don't even know what peace is since your breathing defiance into your children by forcing them to defy what is asked of them. Hey next, you can also teach them to do the same to their teachers, since most of them only have a job due to tenure anyway, not quality.......

Tom Teague

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 12:01 a.m.

When the Supreme Court ruled in 1943 that citizens could not be compelled to recite the pledge, Justice Robert Jackson wrote for the majority "If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein." The decision came in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette.

Tom Teague

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 12:10 a.m.

Roadman and John Q get the credit for posting all of this before I hit "submit." And, obviously, before I read all the comments.

Roadman

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 11:48 p.m.

The United States Supreme Court has long recognized that the Free Speech Clause of the First Amendment recognizes a corresponding right not to speak or otherwise express oneself. In 1943 the case of Barnett versus New Hampshire it was held that a Jehovah's Witness could not be compelled by law to salute a flag. More recently, Chet Lemon and Lou Whitaker of the Detroit Tigers did not stand for the national anthem at the start of ballgames in observance of their religious convictions. At the beginning of each Ann Arbor City council meeting Mayor John Hieftje leads citizens in the Pledge of Allegiance, requesting them to stand; there are sometimes those present who decline to do so. I do not see this bill as being subject to legal enforcement. If it were, the ACLU would have a proverbial field day with it in a federal court.

Roadman

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 12:43 a.m.

@Tom: You are correct; I just realized after I sent it West Virginia was the correct state.

Tom Teague

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 12:08 a.m.

Roadman - I hit "submit" and then read your post. Otherwise, I would have given you the credit for finding the West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette reference.

Greg

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 11:38 p.m.

This is america and the flag is the symbol of OUR country!!!!! Love it or leave it !!! Support the country you live in or live in the country you support!!

SFK

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 1:06 p.m.

I support this country. I love my freedom. Freedom means not having to do what someone else mandates.

sellers

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 1:01 p.m.

There is nothing wrong with the pledge. I think it's a great little passage. I don't see how forcing all students to pledge helps anything? Without context, a pledge is just a pledge and lacks meaning to those saying it.

townie54

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 2:09 a.m.

how long have you been like this Greg?

Heardoc

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 11:18 p.m.

The left is alive and well in Ann Arbor. Of course the children should recite the pledge. To not recite indicates an indoctrination into socialism. The leftists in our school system have failed us time and again. They have attempted to indoctrinate their leftist viewpoints at all stages. Funny how being patriotic stems liberalism. There was a study that was published earlier this year and has been well resourced. It does prove that patriotism defeats liberalism. Hurray for the USA! It is no wonder that he left do not want the pledge recited in class---TOUGH LUCK! THIS IS AMERICA-- Not Red China or Europe. If you do not want to recite the pledge-- there are many countries that do not have this requirement. Maybe you might find one to your liking.

Charlie Brown's Ghost

Wed, Nov 2, 2011 : 7:04 p.m.

"Christian Socialist." Oxymoron

clownfish

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 12:39 p.m.

HEARDOC, do you EVER let facts get in your way? "Francis Bellamy (1855 - 1931), a Baptist minister, wrote the original Pledge in August 1892. He was a Christian Socialist. In his Pledge, he is expressing the ideas of his first cousin, Edward Bellamy, author of the American socialist utopian novels, Looking Backward (1888) and Equality (1897). In 1892 Francis Bellamy was also a chairman of a committee of state superintendents of education in the National Education Association. " Christian Socialism, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Socialism" rel='nofollow'>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Socialism</a>

townie54

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 2:10 a.m.

you are so confused

John Q

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 12:58 a.m.

Mandating people do things against their beliefs is completely contrary to the idea of freedom and liberty. People like Heardoc who demand you believe a certain way aren't advocates for freedom and liberty.

clownfish

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 12:12 a.m.

The Pledge was written by a Socialist. Did you know that? Are you suggesting that students be REQUIRED to cite the words of a Socialist? It seems like you are not, but the facts say that you are. Why is it that when "conservatives" are unable to exert their will upon everybody else it is everybody else that "should leave"? Are you going to leave when you sign up for mandated health private insurance? Are you maybe confusing Nationalism with Patriotism? I think so. Good to know that you think The State should mandate pledges, much like China and the Soviet Union!

John Q

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 11:39 p.m.

is this a joke? You prove how free the US is by mandating US citizens take a pledge even when it may violate their personal or religious beliefs? Sounds like a viewpoint that would fit right in among the brainwashed in Red China.

sh1

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 11:25 p.m.

Funny you bring up China. Their children do recite pledges in school. Is that your aim?

Adam Betz

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 11:11 p.m.

How about reading the name and bio of the Michigan service member who was killed in Iraq or Afghanistan that gives reason for the days the flags in Michigan are supposed to be half mast? Most citizens don't even notice when or how often the flag is half mast.

sbbuilder

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 1:19 p.m.

Adam Small correction: Ships have masts, and therefore fly the flag at half-mast. Otherwise, we fly the flag at half-staff.

Heardoc

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 11:19 p.m.

Ad you are assuming AA does?

Dave66

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 11:04 p.m.

Hilarious how apologetically and un-self-consciously ironic Republicans are. LIBERTY -- the quality or state of being free: a : the power to do as one pleases b : freedom from physical restraint c : freedom from arbitrary or despotic control d : the positive enjoyment of various social, political, or economic rights and privileges e : the power of choice So the government proposes to force children recite a pledge which contains the phrase "With LIBERTY and justice for all?" Ha! Ha! Ha! I just about soiled myself. Liberty for all, except schoolchildren, I guess. Oh, and to claim to value liberty *and* be anti-choice is yet another ironic self-contradiction. It's a good thing Republicans are incapable of holding two thoughts in their heads at the same time, otherwise there would be a huge mess as all of them explode.

Dcam

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 1:48 p.m.

They can hold two contradictory thoughts in their heads, simultaneously believing both to be true. George Orwell called it double-think, and many have mastered it.

Dave66

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 11:10 p.m.

Drat. Clownfish got to it before I did. Same definition, word for word, too.

jns131

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 11:04 p.m.

I did when I was in school and I am all for it. Bring on and bring the god back to school. Might alleviate a lot of problems schools now a days have.

Tru2Blu76

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 3:23 p.m.

Just a question: who provides the economic and legal system which makes the United States possible? Is it God? I doubt that because, every day, I see police, fire fighters, judges, juries, workers and (honest) businesses doing that work. I see NO God working at these tasks. God is not on our side: He's not on your side either.

Some Guy in 734

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 1:25 p.m.

Apparently Tim Tebow doesn't put much stock in Matthew 6:5 and 6. Google it.

AnnArborDon

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 1:14 a.m.

God has never left the school. Any person who feels the need or desire to pray may do so in America at any time - just ask Tim Tebow as he kneels and prays in front of a stadium crowd of 100,000 and a TV audience of a few million. What has left the school is the illegal practice of having employees of the state or federal government show favoritism for one form of religion over all others. Again, this is liberty, as in "with liberty and justice for all." (Not just Christians.)

eom

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 12:44 a.m.

Are you serious? Bringing GOD into the classroom isn't going to solve/fix/change/help/teach our kids what they need to know. How can it alleviate the problems we now face? How can it help the poverty we see in every state in our nation? How would it help students read/write/solve during their school day? We don't need GOD in the classroom, we need well funded, well educated and dedicated teachers who are passionate about their jobs and are invested in the lives of their students.

jns131

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 12:24 a.m.

It is people like you that have attitudes and atheist ways that make this the country the way it is now. Very messed up and very lost. We use to all work together. Now we all work against each other. Now who has lost their way?

clownfish

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 11:33 p.m.

I'll make you a deal, when ALL of the Christian Sects can TOTALLY agree on Doctrine, we can open a discussion of bringing God into the classroom. Until then, you are free to worship in your home and church all you desire.

Robert Pachella

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 10:59 p.m.

It is hard to believe that a legislator in our state has proposed a bill, which if passed would be declared unconstitutional on first legal challenge. In 1943 the US Supreme Court in W. Virginia School Board vs. Barnette ruled that it was unconstitutional to require students to recite the Pledge of Allegiance. What a waste of legislative time and effort.

Ron Granger

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 10:49 p.m.

Isn't the University of Michigan a public school?

joe.blow

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 10:47 p.m.

Look at all the Hate for America from liberals on here. Isn't that just sad. Liberals hate to say they love this country and don't like the American flag. The hate on this page brings a tear to my eye. I love this country so much and it hurts to see so many liberal shred it and throw it in the trash. This is why entitlement is wrong. Liberals expect everything from their country and give nothing to her. Conservatives ask for little from their country and give everything, including life for her.

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Thu, Nov 3, 2011 : 11:41 p.m.

Yup. Lots of conservative straw men and fictional statements. Typical. GN&GL

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Wed, Nov 2, 2011 : 11:51 p.m.

Yes, a sign of a healthy and vibrant democracy is when the officer corps of its military overwhelmingly favor one political party. (sarcasm) If you are not concerned by this development, read the following article from "Parameters," the journal of the Army War College: <a href="http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usawc/parameters/Articles/09winter/corbett%20and%20davidson.pdf" rel='nofollow'>http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usawc/parameters/Articles/09winter/corbett%20and%20davidson.pdf</a> And, writing as a retired officer in the United States Army, it has nothing to do with "patriotism." It has to do with a mis-perception as to which party best serves the military's narrow interests. And, as Republican cut VA benefits, cut dependent health benefits, cut educational benefits, cut housing benefits, among many others, the military is wising up. The 2010 numbers are starkly different that those of 2004 and 2003 in SB's post. See: <a href="http://www.navytimes.com/news/2010/04/military_poll_advance_041110w/" rel='nofollow'>http://www.navytimes.com/news/2010/04/military_poll_advance_041110w/</a> Good Night and Good Luck

sbbuilder

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 11:28 p.m.

townie54 See: <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A25656-2004Oct11.html" rel='nofollow'>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A25656-2004Oct11.html</a> <a href="http://www.militarytimes.com/projects/polls/2003_side1.php" rel='nofollow'>http://www.militarytimes.com/projects/polls/2003_side1.php</a> for starters. C'mon, you really can't be serious. Estimates are that there is an 8:1 ratio of Republican to Democrats among the officer corps. Find the data for yourself.

clownfish

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 12:34 p.m.

So, not one example of "hatred for America" has been cited. Would you care to offer an apology to those Other People that posted here that you slandered? Maybe you are a Believer and you follow the Ten Commandments? Maybe you could write here the 9th Commandment? What good is a Pledge or a Commandment if those that preach the loudest ignore them?

townie54

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 2:19 a.m.

whats scary is people like sbbuilder really thinks what he's saying is true

AnnArborDon

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 1:19 a.m.

Do you know what the word "Constitution" means? It literally means "that which composes, forms, or makes up." In other words, the Constitution LITERALLY IS the United States of America. We liberals are here trying to defend the Constitution - trying to say that we should obey and hold sacred the tenets of that incredible document - while you conservatives are saying that it should be ignored. Sound more like YOU are the ones who hate this country.

John Q

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 1 a.m.

You are surely wrong. At least half of my friends who have served or are serving voted for the commander-in-chief.

sbbuilder

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 11:43 p.m.

Dave66 Have a look at the military. I think you will find that the members of our armed forces are overwhelmingly conservative, or Republican. They surely didn't vote for our current Commander in Chief.

clownfish

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 11:29 p.m.

Cite an example of Hate for America posted here today, please. Are you, as a "conservative" telling us that the State should mandate what people do every weekday morning? As mentioned above, Francis Bellamy was a Socialist, are you insisting that to be a "Good American" we should embrace the words of a socialist? He was also a member of the National Education Association, would you like to see them have more control of students time in class? He was a minister, yet did NOT include the words "under God", why do you think he did that? Was it because he "hated America"?

sh1

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 11:23 p.m.

Do you believe in the Constitution of this country you love? Well, Liberals do.

Dave66

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 11:06 p.m.

Usually someone else's life.

Ron Granger

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 10:47 p.m.

They should recite passages from the Constitution.

the thing is...

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 8:42 p.m.

Anyone else remember the Schoolhouse Rock song/video about the preamble to the Constitution? That's how I learned it.

Snarf Oscar Boondoggle

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 4:49 p.m.

but, buyt, but ... but ron, teh teachers woiuld have to know/read/recite it as leaders. oh, wait ... the kids could lead. ta-da!

Carole

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 1:58 p.m.

I think our government officials should read the entire Constitution of the US.

Adam Betz

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 11:08 p.m.

Great idea!

arborani

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 11:07 p.m.

Now THAT I like.

Carole

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 10:35 p.m.

I love our country and especially Michigan, but I do believe that we have more important issues to tend to instead trying to pass legislature re: the pledge of alliance. Most schools already have flags that are flown with children assigned to putting up and taking down. Give me a break, either get with doing something that is needed == like lower gas taxes, etc.

joe.blow

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 10:48 p.m.

If they spent more than 3min on this, then the liberals should be ashamed of themselves.

Adam Betz

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 10:28 p.m.

Penn & Teller to a great act on patriotism where they appear to burn the American flag. They then explain why it is not the flag, which is only a physical, tangible symbol that is important to our freedoms and liberties but the Constitution which solidifies into law which should be more protected. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jF2iX2VG6e4" rel='nofollow'>www.youtube.com/watch?v=jF2iX2VG6e4</a> It isn't the oath, the flag or fighting for ones country that shows patriotism. Patriotism is helping out your fellow countryman, sharing in the pain and joys that we face as a nation and making the government scared of the people by peaceful revolution and involvement when our voice is taken away. When the people fear their government, tyranny prevails. When the government fears its people, liberty prevails.

russellr

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 10:27 p.m.

Sorry all you unpatriotic so called Americans. When you came to this country you knew it was American so why did you come? Go back to your own country if you don't like it and do there laws that you love. I think it's very patriotic and lets also bring back Jesus Christ into the government and schools. You will all answer to God when he comes back to take his bride. Please read Psalms 9:16, 17. The Lord is known by the judgement which he executeth: the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands. The wicked shall be turned into hell, and ALL THE NATIONS THAT FORGET GOD!!! Need I say more.

Blanch DuBois

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 1:52 p.m.

A day late...but very scary indeed.

SFK

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 12:41 p.m.

Please don't.

eom

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 11:54 p.m.

No, you don't need to say more. If you want religion, seek shelter in a school with a religious base. Don't come to our public schools, we tend to separate church and state...

clownfish

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 11:22 p.m.

I was born here, where would you have me return? Mathew 7.1

sh1

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 11:22 p.m.

I'm sorry you don't believe in the Constitution of the country you live in.

arborani

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 11:06 p.m.

Please don't.

sh1

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 10:17 p.m.

For all of you supporting this bill, tell me why this wouldn't be a decent compromise: Everyone who wants to say the pledge, buy a flag and hang in on your front porch. Recite the pledge together in the morning before going to school and work. Done and done.

ghl

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 9:59 p.m.

There seems to be an awful lot of people commenting here are telling non citizens to back where they came from. How about all the non US citizens take tomorrow off work, let's see how far that gets you.

Dog Guy

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 9:56 p.m.

A video of our president reciting the pledge would be a fine teaching tool.

clownfish

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 12:31 p.m.

<a href="http://factcheck.org/2008/01/sliming-obama/" rel='nofollow'>http://factcheck.org/2008/01/sliming-obama/</a> <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Fx16ZxFB4w" rel='nofollow'>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Fx16ZxFB4w</a>

Charlie Brown's Ghost

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 1:40 a.m.

Good idea. But the whole thing this time, not just selected parts.

bobr

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 9:45 p.m.

Between prayer and pledges and flags, etc. it would be nice to think our schools might have time to teach something. Our education system is way down the list worldwide and going lower.

clownfish

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 12:28 p.m.

HEARDOC, the pledge was written by a member of the NEA!

Heardoc

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 1:12 a.m.

Uh you are talking about the MEA-- good luck on the teaching issue........

zags

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 9:40 p.m.

I am 99% sure that a time machine does not exist in today's world. Someone should tell the Republicans that no matter how hard they try they cannot return the country to to the early fifties. It's just not going to happen. But they keep trying and trying........

Some Guy in 734

Wed, Nov 2, 2011 : 2:10 p.m.

Of course. Fair is fair. Are you so quick to correct conservatives in Jackson who embrace the disputed mantle of "Birthplace of the Republican Party" while conveniently forgetting mid-19th-century Republicans were the progressives of their day?

jcj

Wed, Nov 2, 2011 : 1:08 a.m.

Some Guy in 734 To quote Al Franken will win lots of respect on this end! Your point is valid about the last 40 years. But are you so quick to correct those that would have today's youth believe that Republicans were primarily responsible for slavery and segregation?

Charlie Brown's Ghost

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 4:31 p.m.

John Q, the topic is a bill concerning saying the pledge of allegiance in Michigan. But since you're so interested in off-topic conversations, what kind of carrots do you like?

Some Guy in 734

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 1:18 p.m.

jcj--You do understand, don't you, that the racist southern Democrats (aka Dixiecrats) who voted against the Civil Rights Act of 1964 *left the party* over it? To suggest that this is at all representative of the Democratic Party over the last 40 years is, to quote Al Franken, fatuously disingenuous.

jcj

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 1:10 p.m.

John Q Read some history! Wake up! It was Democrats that FOUGHT to keep slavery.It was Democrats that FOUGHT to keep segregation! Franklin D. Roosevelt appointed a life member of the Ku Klux Klan to the Supreme Court, Sen. Hugo Black, Democrat of Alabama. In 1944, FDR chose as his vice president Harry Truman, who had joined the Ku Klux Klan in Kansas City in 1922. Throughout his presidency, Roosevelt resisted Republican efforts to pass a federal law against lynching, and he opposed integration of the armed forces. Another Ku Klux Klan member, Sen. Robert C. Byrd, Democrat

John Q

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 3:01 a.m.

I guess you don't know much about American history but back in the 1950s, legal segregation was alive in well in the Deep South. That's why someone would have no interest in returning to America back in the 1950s. Try keeping up with the comments.

Charlie Brown's Ghost

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 1:40 a.m.

How the heck did you work segregation into this? That's about as on-topic as carrots would be.

John Q

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 1:01 a.m.

sbbuilder, you didn't have any problem with segregation?

sbbuilder

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 11:34 p.m.

...and what, exactly, was so anathema to you about the early Fifties?

John Q

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 9:39 p.m.

Mandating students say the Pledge or salute the US flag in public schools was ruled unconstitutional by the US Supreme Court back in 1943. Even in the middle of World War II, the Court realized that mandating students to salute the flag or pledge allegiance to it was contrary to the reasons that our military men were overseas fighting and dying to roll back the tide of Fascism. One of the best known quotes from the majority opinion sums it up nicely. "If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein. If there are any circumstances which permit an exception, they do not now occur to us."

mlivesaline

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 9:28 p.m.

Shouldn't we require every child to also wear a flag pin to school everyday? Should they be required to "sing" the national anthem at all sporting events? Should there be a bill that requires all school children to take of their hats when the national anthem is played? These are all good things to do, I don't think we can argue that fact. But to pass a bill requiring every child in public school to do it is wrong.

Mike

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 12:05 p.m.

No but maybe our president should...........

zeeba

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 9:20 p.m.

I thought one of the great things about this country was supposed to be that you couldn't be forced to take loyalty oaths of any kind. And are they seriously thinking of requiring high school students to do this? I can see how that would turn out. Besides, requiring schools to buy flags would be an unfunded mandate per the Headlee Amendment, so the state would have to pick up the tab.

zax

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 9:19 p.m.

We started the day with the pledge every day, standing and placing our right hand over our heart. Embrace the freedoms our forefathers gave us, stand up for your country or move out. Kids should know how to respect and be grateful for their freedom and be reminded of this great country every day.

Some Guy in 734

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 1:11 p.m.

Being reminded of freedom by a compulsory recitation? Do you even hear what you're saying?

Charlie Brown's Ghost

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 9:12 p.m.

I can see requiring teachers to facilitate the reciting of the pledge, but not requiring people to say it.

the thing is...

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 8:38 p.m.

Conveniently for you, CBG, the SCOTUS already weighed in on this issue decades ago. Tell your kids I'm sorry about messing up their Cedar Point trip. ;)

garrisondyer

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 1:02 p.m.

Thank you. As a teacher, that's as far as I will ever take it.

Charlie Brown's Ghost

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 9:25 p.m.

... and, if this becomes law, I tell my kids NOT to say it in this circumstance, and if they get expelled I will take them Cedar Point. And then to the Supreme Court. And that's from an Eagle Scout, baseball-loving, apple pie-eating, Normal Rockwell portrait-living, patriotic, flag-waving, red-blooded American.

Judy Mcnamara

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 9:10 p.m.

This is just another ploy by the "evil does", to take away freedom of choice and push their God. Wasn't it Eisinhower who put God in the pledge. The actual pleade was wriiten by a socialist. Choice is a very scary word for dogma lovers and those who cannot, or will not, think for themselves.

clownfish

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 9:08 p.m.

Interesting to find so many self described "conservatives" wanting the government to tell them how to raise their kids, and to spend more money in school systems on non-educational agendas. How much are you willing to have your taxes raised to pay for this?

Mike

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 12:04 p.m.

Nice try......

hsgidley

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 9:07 p.m.

I said this pledge *every day* during my years at elementary, middle and high school. For the life of me I can't see the harm in this - we still turned out liberals and free thinkers willing to protest those things we didn't believe in. Remember the vietnam war protests, the civil rights struggles, women's rights? They were all led by those children who recited the pledge of allegiance daily. A little pride in your country should never be a big deal.

sh1

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 10:15 p.m.

But why should it be required? I see no good argument for that anywhere on this page. Promoting a bill because it probably wouldn't hurt that much doesn't seem like a convincing reason to expend time and effort.

Angil Tarach-Ritchey RN, GCM

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 9:04 p.m.

I am pretty shocked by these poll results! Do we not see the lack of respect kids are displaying? Everyone is so worried about being politically correct it's no wonder things are so screwed up. I came from the generation where we said the Pledge of Allegiance daily. In my school we prayed daily too. We are hard working, ethical and don't expect something for nothing. We were raised to be grateful we lived in a free country and to respect those who fought for our freedom. For those who are not proud of living in a free country I say do some traveling, see how the rest of the world lives and maybe you'll come back supporting respect. Go on a mission trip with World Vision and see what it's like to live without clean drinking water, education, opportunity, and the ability to freely live and speak. I think the majority of those who don't appreciate this country have never traveled outside of it, other than over the Canadian border. Don't complain unless you have actually spent time outside of the US, and if you still complain move.

sbbuilder

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 11:32 p.m.

Angil Our country may be going down the poop hole, our morals may be decrepit, our respect for anything of lasting value plummeting, our civic duties, our respect for life, all may be reaching a vanishing point; yet try to link anything resembling as cause and effect and you are lambasted. Whatever you do, don't even think about drawing a line in the sand. Liberals treat those as blasphemous idolatries.

eom

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 11:30 p.m.

Really!? The problems we face as a nation are because we stopped saying the pledge in schools!? As an educator, I can assure you, this isn't going to "fix" kids. It will only take time away from teaching the curriculum. Teach the pledge at home.

sh1

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 10:13 p.m.

You can be a respectful person without reciting pledges and prayers.

Terrin Bell

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 9:01 p.m.

Yes, in the land of the free let us require our students to cite an allegiance, and our schools to spend money on things when they already are cutting spending. As far as getting out goes, that would be hard to do as the US likes to stick its nose everywhere.

Gramma

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 8:53 p.m.

The Pledge of Allegiance, in its beginning, was a pledge to take up arms for the country. There are many people who are conscientious objectors to all or a particular war. These people love and honor their country. The Jehovah's Witnesses (who are Christian) consider taking this pledge, with or without "under God," to be placing the flag and country above God. Many Christians, as well as people from other faith traditions, consider a pledge to the flag to be giving obeisance to an idol. Under our Constitution, all of us have the right to freedom of speech and the freedom of religion. We also have the right to peaceful assembly and protest. If these rights are not exercised, they are meaningless. If these rights are not respected by any level of government, they are without value. I may not agree with your point of view, but it would be ridiculous to say that point of view means you do not love your country or you should leave. If I truly love my country, I will work to make it better. All of the this does sound a lot like neo-Mc Carthyism. In the McCarthy era, the suspicion or implication that you were Communist (which was undefined) could lead to job loss and/or jail. I really don't want to return to that time.

sbbuilder

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 11:26 p.m.

Oh please, you are so absolutely wrong with your origin of the Pledge. It was, after all, composed by a man named Frances Bellamy who was a Christian socialist and a Baptist minister, for crying out loud. The date? 1892. So there were no wars going on at that time. It was first published the same year in commemoration of Christopher Columbus' 400 year anniversay of discovering America. Check your facts, please, before going off tangentially.

Matt Peckham

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 8:35 p.m.

You'd think this would be something right, left, and middle could unite on: No government-mandated displays of ideology, whatever they may be. What, you vote "okay" so long as the government agrees with you? See dictionary definition of "double standard."

jcj

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 8:25 p.m.

I think it would have been better had we never stopped saying the pledge. I am not sure it should or could be mandated now. But I do know I don't give a rip what non citizens think about it!

jcj

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 12:57 p.m.

To care does not mean you have to agree!

clownfish

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 12:26 p.m.

JCL, then look at the poll results.

jcj

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 12:10 a.m.

Yes I care what fellow citizens think.

Gramma

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 8:54 p.m.

Do you care what fellow citizens think about it?

bamwow

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 8:16 p.m.

Do we REALLY need kids to say the pledge every day when it ends with a big lie: "With Liberty & Justice FOR ALL"? Also when would teachers find the time to squeeze this in?

redwingshero

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 12:55 p.m.

@dave66-well it worked for them for a little while right? I was waiting for someone to bring up that reference, thanks! :)

Dave66

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 11:09 p.m.

It worked for the Nazis, redwingshero. Uh... Wait a minute. I think I got that backwards.

redwingshero

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 8:22 p.m.

I agree. Blind Nationalism is wrong.

oligarchies rule

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 8:11 p.m.

I pledge of allegiance to the flag of the oligarchies of america.....

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Tue, Nov 8, 2011 : 8:24 p.m.

. . . one nation, under the Koch Brothers

Brad

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 3:15 p.m.

and to the corporations for which they stand

DBH

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 8:06 p.m.

If kids are going to be required to recite something every day, I would prefer the Serenity Prayer. It would be more meaningful for them now and in the future. A short discussion if its components would be an interesting way to start the day and to start them thinking about concepts.

Blanch DuBois

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 1:42 p.m.

DBH....great idea. When I recite that verse, instead of saying "God grant me...", I say "Please grant me...". Works just fine.

DBH

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 12:40 p.m.

"...OF its components..."

kathryn

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:55 p.m.

I have no problem with allegiance; I just resent having to sign onto the idea that our nation is "under" a "God" that I don't believe in. That's state-sponsored religion, I think. Take the pledge back to the way it was originally, and it'd be fine.

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Tue, Nov 8, 2011 : 8:23 p.m.

"This country is under God." Really? Please educate us. Where in the Declaration of Independence is there anything about the NATION being of or by a god? Where in the Constitution does it say anything about the role of a god in the creation of or maintenance of the government? Come on. Be specific. You can do it. Good Night and Good Luck

AlfaElan

Wed, Nov 2, 2011 : 3:41 p.m.

Oops that should have read "beliefs of some of the founding Father "

AlfaElan

Wed, Nov 2, 2011 : 3:40 p.m.

Which original? I think the original one was too vague. The 1924 to 1954 one is probably the best, but I still would find it difficult to force anyone to say it. I know making the pledge would violate the beliefs of the founding Father since some did not believe in making a pledge to anyone but their God. From Wikipedia: 1892 "I pledge allegiance to my flag and the republic for which it stands: one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all." 1892 to 1923 "I pledge allegiance to my flag and to the republic for which it stands: one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all." 1923 to 1924 "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States and to the republic for which it stands: one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all." 1924 to 1954 "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands; one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all." 1954 to Present "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

redwingshero

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 12:54 p.m.

@heardoc-even conservative private Christian college's will teach in U.S. History courses, that the majority of the founding fathers were deists, not Christians. Are you seriously trying to convince me and others that this nation is not secular? This country loves God and is "Under God"? The majoirty of people in this country doesn't even know who God is? If you are a believer and seriously think this, you need to pull your head out of the sand and open your eyes!

Heardoc

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 1:10 a.m.

This country is under God. Who cares what others think. This country became great with its Judeo/Christian beliefs. That is who we are and what we are. We are not secularist --no matter how hard you try. We love God and all he has done -- those of you who think otherwise do not know your history very well (Due to leftists teaching you) and are doomed to living a life not worth living.

redwingshero

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 8:03 p.m.

I take issue with the nation being "under God" as I feel that the country's actions and what goes on in the country is not Godly. On those grounds I woudl not take issue with removing that from the pledge. There is somethign to say about "blind nationalism" though.

Joe Hood

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:55 p.m.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

clownfish

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 12:25 p.m.

Mike, so you want more "progressive" mandates? I am confused, is "the left" correct to use government force or not? Do you want it both ways, no govt intrusion from "the left", more govt intrusion from "the right"? If I follow your argument correctly, you want politicians telling people how to raise their kids, right? But you are against govt telling people to raise their kids, right?

Mike

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 12:02 p.m.

@ CLOWN - According to your definition we lost our liberty many moons ago to progressivism and big government; try to do just about anything and you'll find a government rule dealing with it. Thanks for clearing this up......

clownfish

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 9:16 p.m.

Liberty- The state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life. or Definition of LIBERTY 1 : the quality or state of being free: a : the power to do as one pleases b : freedom from physical restraint c : freedom from arbitrary or despotic control d : the positive enjoyment of various social, political, or economic rights and privileges e : the power of choice So, you would like to celebrate liberty by having the State Government mandate a persons political behavior on a daily basis?

clownfish

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 9:05 p.m.

So, you think Congress has the right to force me to accept a particular version of God? Isn't there something about that in the #1 Bill of Rights? Was there no God to be under prior to the 1950's, when some politiicians decided to add a few words? Do you always do what politicians tell you to do?

Gramma

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 8:57 p.m.

I already knew all the words. A forced pledge is a pledge that will not be honored.

Sandra Samons

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:52 p.m.

And this guy gets paid for clogging up the legislature with this kind of frivolous business when there are so many more important things to be done! I guess we know who not to vote for next time around!

redwingshero

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:52 p.m.

You could probably lean me a bit right of center. Being a Christian, I can see why people do not want it recited due to "under God". What about those that feel weird being forced to recite it even if "under God" was taken out? I had to recite it back in kindergarten and 1st grade (89-90), but after that, we didn't have to. I could take issue with it today for my kids I suppose as well.

Mike

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 11:59 a.m.

Maybe it should be "one nation under the government's thumb" or "one nation underwater" due to all of the debt or how about "many nations under whatever they feel like".....

Clinton Resident

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:48 p.m.

I agree with Jammers02. I don't think this is about politics. This is about honoring your Country. We need to be supporting our Country whether we agree with the politics or not.

Terrin Bell

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 9:05 p.m.

Why? A Country that doesn't support you doesn't deserve to be supported. People should support their local communities, families, and friends. The Federal government doesn't do anything but mess things up.

Nonchalant

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:47 p.m.

well I think this is JUST a STUPID BILL, with everything going on ECONOMIC wise this is the best we could report on. UGHHH get it 2gether, and public education has been going down hill for a while now. My son is 2 years old he's in a private young preschool institute now , and I think thats just the way to go if you want quality education. AND supporting our country and pledging has nothing to do with one another we dont have to agree on everything. THATS why we live in a democracy so that we can AGREE 2 DISAGREE!

bunnyabbot

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:43 p.m.

well hopefully they will buy American made flags and not some flimsy one made in China.

BHarding

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:40 p.m.

I think making the pledge mandatory is silly. Just as I think the fear that changed the words in reaction to the Red Scare was. On the other hand, I hope everyone studies the U.S. constitution in school, starting as early as possible. We don't need blind loyalty, we need loyalty based on respect, and people that are willing to work for beneficial change.

Nonchalant

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:48 p.m.

Totally agree...well said!

xmo

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:37 p.m.

I love the way "Progressives" Democrats make a big deal over nothing! How much does an "American" flag cost? What is wrong with the reciting the "Pledge of Allegiance"? There are a lot of more important issues than these so "Get Over It"

AlfaElan

Wed, Nov 2, 2011 : 3:32 p.m.

When the cost to the classroom is the difference between having supplies to make it through the school year and not, it is too much. To often the legislators in Lansing create amandates like this without providing the funds, therefore breaking the law of the State of Michigan as voted on by the citizens, that we really should start complaining. If they want a flag in every classroom they darn well better pay for it.

kathryn

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:57 p.m.

What's wrong, is that it says that this country is "under God"...a god that I do not believe in and do not want to "pledge" to. Take it out...and then it's fine.

AnnArborDon

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:51 p.m.

Requiring state employees to violate federal law is not "nothing."

Paul Taylor

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:44 p.m.

Agreed that there are more pressing concerns. So, you'd agree that this bill, providing for an unfunded mandate and prescribed religious statement be tossed aside?

OLDTIMER3

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:35 p.m.

@davi napoleon , that is what is wrong with this country everyone has teir own ideas they want everyone to follow. For years it was the pratice to say the pledge every morning and it didn't cause any problems.It is funny they can talk about Islam and homo sexual behavior but don't you dare mention GOD.

Mike

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 11:56 a.m.

@clown - Nobody needs to prove it to you; you'll find out all on your own someday..........

clownfish

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 9:02 p.m.

Prove to me there is a God, and that She cares more about Americans than everybody else, then we have a starting point of discussion.

AnnArborDon

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:49 p.m.

"it didn't cause any problems" THAT YOU KNOW OF! That isn't the same thing as not causing problems. Does government mandated religion ever cause any problems - that you know of?

Paul Taylor

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:35 p.m.

Of course, upon some quick research, I can see that Kahn is, at essence, an party-toeing ideologue. Whether promoting government intrusion on the doctor-patient relationship, mandating unrelated spending by schools, or accosting fellow senators, he is a great representative for the modern Republican Party. I am now MUCH less concerned about this bill going anywhere but down the memory hole.

SFK

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 12:37 p.m.

Doesn't Kahn own a flag manufacturing company?

wolfman jack

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:34 p.m.

...Amended in Ann Arbor - The daily devotional taught from the quotes of chairman Mao will suffice.

clownfish

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 9:01 p.m.

Can you cite some examples of communism in A2? Perhaps some industrial quotas set by City Council? Maybe a forced recital of a creed, enforced by a political party?

DeeDee

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:32 p.m.

wow, how much are the republicans going to charge us tax payers for that massive flag they are buying to wrap the state in? Wasn't it Voltaire who said patriotism is the last refuge of the charlatan? All of the problems facing this state (including a lot hate filled republicans in our state legislature determined to pay off every imaginary political grudge they ever nurtured) and the best thing they can think of is the Pledge of Allegiance? But, hey , it is another great chance for the republicans to make life uncomfortable for anyone who doesn't want to profess to a belief in god publicly, so let's go for it!

Mike

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:28 p.m.

Every country in the world that has a strong sesne of national pride has some sort of pledge of allegiance or anthem, especially the comunist ones! We are sitting back and letting our country go down the tubes because we don't want to instill that in our children. The definition of a country is a people with common values, religion, traditions, and yes national pride. Why we ever quit the pledge of allegiance in this country is beyond me; it has turned us into a divided country. Just look at our congress and our people in general, rwead the head lines and watch the right and left talk shows....need I say more

AlfaElan

Wed, Nov 2, 2011 : 3:27 p.m.

I am sorry Mike, but the definition in About.com is incorrect. A nation must meet the following criteria (from memory): 1. have defined boundaries with a fixed population 2. be able to defend itself 3. be recognized by and able to enter into enter into contract and treaties with other Nations This has nothing to do with culture. Today the US is population has many cultures and religions (even more than the many it had when it was formed). It must be remembered that many of the founding Fathers were more Diest than followers of the current Christian denominations. (It is commonly agreed that George Washington attended church services for political reasons more than religious reasons, but I digress). Also don't forget that the pledge was written by a socialist. So it is important to respect the right of people in the public school system who cannot in clear conscience make this pledge, be it for religious reasons, or because they have an allegiance to another country because they are citizens of other countries living here legally or illegally. Respect for each others difference is one of the founding principals of this country. On the other hand I am proud my sons says the pledge at Boy Scouts and I think it is right that persons applying for citizenship say the pledge (with or without the "under God" ), but I think school students will still say is ""I pedge legiance to the flag of the United States of Merica, and to the public for which it stands, one nation underdog, invisible, with berty and justice for ball."

Gasmaskted

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 9:31 p.m.

"We no longer share a common culture, language, or religion;" We never shared such things. Your 21st century view may see "christianity" as one religion, but the Catholics and Lutherans and Presbyterians and Baptists and Quakers and Anglicans and all the rest didn't think so. And the German speaking Pennsylvania Dutch and various American Indian languages have been around since our founding. And of course the French speaking Acadians and Louisanans, or the Spansih speakers who have continued in various territories when they were annexed. And culture has always been more shattered than simple language or religion.

clownfish

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 12:22 p.m.

"...a nation of many cultures," IS a melting pot. Or is there some difference between assimilating Germans/Irish/Pols and Swedes vs Mexicans/Chinese/Vietnamese etc...well I guess there is, those people are brown...gasp!

Mike

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 9:49 p.m.

Definition of a nation from About.com: "A nation, however, is a tightly-knit group of people which share a common culture." We no longer share a common culture, language, or religion; we are devolving into a multicultural nation which will become a nation of many cultures, no longer a melting pot thanks to progressivism.

Gramma

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 8:37 p.m.

This sounds like you are advocating that we be more like "communist" countries Actually, when you suggest elimination of our freedoms of speech and religion, that is what you are doing. I would like to know where you got your definition of "country."

AnnArborDon

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:46 p.m.

Mike - you need to say a LOT more. Like how one of our common values is FREEDOM; freedom of speech, freedom of religion, etc. Those communist countries you mentioned were among the most adamant about forcing "national pride" - how did that turn out for them? The cessation of the recital of the pledge of allegiance by school children who didn't even know what "allegiance" or "indivisible" meant was not the root cause of all our problems. They are a little more complicated than that.

a2cents

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:42 p.m.

(congress says the pledge every day in session & look where it gets us... & also is led in prayer)

dogpaddle

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:25 p.m.

As a long term American citizen who both loves and sometimes gets upset with his country and at the same time (probably how many parents feel about their children some times - and I will say, some of my fellow Americans act like spoiled selfish brats at any given time), I thought one of my basic fundamental (see the First Amendment) AMERICAN rights is Freedom of Speech which also includes keeping SILENT. So with that in mind, I am against anyone being forced to say anything (that also comes up under the Fifth Amendment under the right to remain silent). Secondly, if we went back to the pre-1954 Pledge of Allegiance (pre-McCarthyism) which did not include the words, "under God" in it, then I might be a little more open to children being forced to pledge some thing. But many of our school children are children of non-believers and some believe in a different form of spiritually and going back to our beloved and cherished First Amendment (thank you, Thomas Jefferson and James Madison), "forced" pledging to a god that someone may or may not believe in is a direct violation of that Amendment and thus should be viewed as un-Constitutional. So, go ahead, Michigan lawmakers, and waste your precious time and our precious tax dollars on passing and enforcing a bill that will ultimately land in the Supreme Court and be found un-Constitutional. Third: since Lansing has reduced every school district to consolidations and bake sales, they are supposed to come up with the money for a flag for every single class room in Michigan from where? From another teaching position? Not in MY back yard, thank you!

SFK

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 12:33 p.m.

We could change it to "One country, under Canada".

arborani

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 10:57 p.m.

Dogpaddle: Excellent post.

Paul Taylor

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:38 p.m.

Whenever I find myself in a position where I MUST recite the pledge, or be ostracized, I simply say it without the 'under god' bit. I find that, by consciously doing this, I am forced to think about what I am saying, and it means a bit more to me. Meanwhile, it also informs what I am hearing around me, which is the monotonized intonation of what could just as well be a string of meaningless words.

johnn Hutchins

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:23 p.m.

Kids should say it once a day until they get into 3rd grade...

redwingshero

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:57 p.m.

Because by that time, their biological clock starts working and they'd rather occupy their time doing other things.

Jammers02

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:38 p.m.

why 3rd?

Davi Napoleon

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:21 p.m.

One of the things that makes this so outrageous is that the Pledge violates the separation clause. Until the phrase "under God" is removed, nobody should be permitted to say it in a government building or at a meeting of a gorvernment body.

JustMyOpinion

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 3:03 p.m.

Accept the Supreme Court has held this is not, in fact, a violation, so I am not sure your argument holds any water. Arguing "Under God" as a violation seems, like the idea of someone making a law to require saying the pledge of allegiance, like such a waste of time and money.

clownfish

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 1:40 p.m.

HEARD, can you show me where in the Constitution God is mentioned, other than dating of the document?

Heardoc

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 12:58 a.m.

God is good and god is great-- should be in everything. Why would the left be so intolerant of another? Very hypocritical of the left to stop this -- God is good and god is great. Secularism never wins the day........

Heardoc

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 12:31 a.m.

Does not violate the separation clause. You are not a lawyer obviously. We have good written on our money-- we have god in the constitution we use the bible to be sworn in as president. Please get your facts correct in the future.

MIKE

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 11:12 p.m.

Permitted is one thing. Required is another. Remove "under God"(which doesn't belong there anyway), and I have no issues with this.

AnnArborDon

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:29 p.m.

I understand what you are trying to say, but I think you reached just a little too far. Anyone should be permitted to say just about anything they want just about anywhere they want (hate speech and wreckless endangerment notwithstanding). The problem here is that they want to REQUIRE it, and as mentioned above, that would violate the non-establishment clause of the Constitution. Just as religious people are free to pray if and when they want to, patriotic-minded individuals are free to pledge their allegiance to the flag if/when they want to. The two parts that make this illegal are the mandate and the addition of "under God" in 1954.

Brad

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:19 p.m.

Wait? This bill was introduced by a Republican? Aren't they supposed to be for less governmental intrusion in our lives? How are they going to enforce this? Send cops to every kindergarten class to make sure that little Jose says the pledge nice and loud or he will face deportation? Really? You are going to legislate patriotism?

Brad

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 3:08 p.m.

Why do you think I am a leftist? A libertarian would also be against such intrusiveness. Anyway, you should leave the ad hominems aside and argue the point. I don't think that any law should be made to force any children to make any oaths against their will, whether these oaths are considered "leftist" "rightist" "centrists" or whatever. If they want to teach about the pledge of allegiance in class - fine. Leaving up to the choice of the teachers and students - fine. Legislating it is just stupid and probably illegal. What does this have to do with healthcare? Stick to the point.

bunnyabbot

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:19 p.m.

why are so many afraid of showing allegiance?

Heardoc

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 12:26 a.m.

It is a proven fact that attending 4th of July parades and reciting the pledge does make one more patriotic and by definition less likely to be a leftist. the left is very afraid of this idea -- will stop what they do in class as far as indoctrinization. Children might want to learn about the constitution, When the children learn about the constitution the leftists know they will be stopped dead in their tracks. That is what this fight is all about

NHolmes

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 10:17 p.m.

It's a question of freedom of choice.

cinnabar7071

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 8 p.m.

Bunny its funny how many hate this country, yet the line of people wanting in will never end. Maybe some Amercan hating liberal will enlighten us as to why that is.

redwingshero

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:56 p.m.

Blind allegiance "stupify's a nations people".

AnnArborDon

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:53 p.m.

Why are so many afraid of letting a display of allegiance be VOLUNTARY!

SMAIVE

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:19 p.m.

And this creates jobs how? Still waiting...

JustMyOpinion

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 2:59 p.m.

Think of the lawyers who would file suit! Lawyers who could hire associates and spend your tax dollars on a more lavish lifestyle and better offices.

coffeedrinker

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 1:59 p.m.

Demand for more flags & accessories=jobs? If they are going to do this they should mandate that the flags are to be made in the United States or better yet -Michigan!

Heardoc

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 12:21 a.m.

Better than what Barry is doing.......

Brad

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:21 p.m.

Because you will have to send government officials to each and every classroom each morning to enforce this silly law. can you say "political theater"?

America

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:19 p.m.

Wonderful idea, although I am sure it would bring a lot of law suits from the minority that rule Ann Arbors decision!

KJMClark

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:13 p.m.

We did the pledge every day in elementary school when I was a kid. I was surprised that they didn't in Ann Arbor, and that so few kids knew the pledge as a result. I think it would be a silly waste of time in the upper grades, but could go either way in the elementaries. It might be a useful routine for getting the younger kids to calm down and get ready for school, while helping learn about their community.

Ignatz

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:13 p.m.

It would be so distastful if the mythological reference would be removed.

JustMyOpinion

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 2:57 p.m.

Yes, what would all the snarky rude people have to feel superior about after that? Would be such a shame to leave them without their opportunities to appear grandiose.

AnnArborDon

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:12 p.m.

Does it even matter to Republicans that mandating the recitation of the Pledge - as it is currently written - is against federal law?

JustMyOpinion

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 2:55 p.m.

Says the Supreme Court of the United States over the years. One cannot mandate the reciting of the Pledge of Allegiance. One can practice it as part of a normal school curriculum, but children may not be forced to say it (it violates some religions to utter such a creed) and may not be punished for refusing (this is a free society).

Heardoc

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 12:20 a.m.

Says who?

Aaron Wolf

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:12 p.m.

There is no place for mandatory creeds in a free society.

Aaron Wolf

Wed, Nov 2, 2011 : 3:52 p.m.

@JustMyOpinion, I agree completely. When show of respect is voluntary, then we know it is sincere! We should impress upon children the values of respect, honor, duty, AND allegiance. These should be done because of belief in their value even in the face of critical thinking and personal liberty. Forcing kids to pledge is a terrible lesson. Teachers can lead by example. The message should be: believe in this because it is just, not believe in this because we'll punish you otherwise. Forced pledges can be and have been used to preach hate and divisiveness and indoctrination. Honor is shown in learning what causes are truly just and then pledging allegiance to those by one's own accord.

JustMyOpinion

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 2:52 p.m.

No, I think Aaron is correct. The national anthem is not mandatory, nor is the flag flying or respect accorded it; one can drag it through excrement without legal recourse by this society. It is, I think, instead, an honor to chose to act with respect toward the flag, to stand and recite the pledge (although I confess I find it trite with its sing song clip) and to know and sing the national anthem. That for me is real liberty; I can avoid all of this but I chose not to becasue I see the value of it - this increases its value to me and, I think, to the society around me because it's a freely exercised choice. I know my children see greater value and importance in my actions because I do not sit in front of a passing flag, veterans in parades, that I cover my heart with my hand during the pledge. I have seen them look up at me from the corner of my eye in questioning curiosity as they got up to stand next to me as the men in uniform passed by. It was exactly that they saw this as a choice, not an obligation that made it important to them and worthy of note. Well said Aaron Wolf.

grye

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 1:39 p.m.

Then you would be against a national anthem, the flag of our country, or any action that would show an allegience. We should then abolish July 4th as a holiday, not honor veterans or memorial day. Might as well flush the country down the toilet.

Aaron Wolf

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 8:23 p.m.

Ok, well, I do think there's value to honor codes... I guess it is complex. But creeds of allegiance are different from honor statements of abstract good qualities like honesty and compassion and ethics...

bunnyabbot

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:21 p.m.

if you went through the list of mandatory creeds you'd probably disagree with your own statement

glimmertwin

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:10 p.m.

We trust our teachers with our kids all day. Let them decide. Government needs to butt out!

clownfish

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 1:37 p.m.

HEARDOC, maybe you are correct on this one! In 1892 Francis Bellamy was a chairman of a committee of state superintendents of education in the National Education Association.

Heardoc

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 12:53 a.m.

Never trust the NEA or the MEA

zeeba

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 9:10 p.m.

Public school teachers are government employees.

CONCERNED CITIZEN

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:07 p.m.

Wonderful idea, although I am sure it would bring a lot of law suits from the minority that rule Ann Arbors decision! Any non-american who doesn't like it, go back to where you came from! This is america and the flag is the symbol of OUR country!!!!!

Cathy

Fri, Nov 4, 2011 : 3:33 a.m.

Checkmate, Liberals!

rkb0929

Thu, Nov 3, 2011 : 6:36 p.m.

I totally agree with you! I grew up reciting the pledge of allegiance every day....kids today would have to learn it first! No wonder every other country feels they can step all over us....we don't teach our kids to respect this country so why should anyone else. We have people in foreign countries representing us, and dying for us....the least we can do is recite the pledge!

SFK

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 12:32 p.m.

A true patriot would capitalize America. We learned that in public school back when we didn't say the pledge every day.

NHolmes

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 10:14 p.m.

What a spiteful and xenophobic comment! Whatever happened to freedom?

sh1

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 10:08 p.m.

And what about Americans who don't like it? How would you like them to express their feelings, given the freedom our country espouses?

Paul Taylor

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:48 p.m.

Hear, hear! I'll go one further--we should mandate that every school establish an enclosed eyrie and hire an ornithologist (full time), for the maintenance/husbandry of a school bald eagle. After all, the bald eagle is a symbol of OUR country. Plus, it is/was endangered, and this would increase its numbers!

Brad

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:23 p.m.

If we all go back where we came from, this country is going to be pretty darn empty.

Suitsme

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:18 p.m.

America is a continent that includes Mexico and Canada. So which America is your country? You live in the United States of America where we are free to express our views even those that are mean, cruel and ignorant.

Jammers02

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:09 p.m.

yay!

Jammers02

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:06 p.m.

I am from Ohio and I had to recite the pledge every day in school and I turned out just fine. My Husband is in the military and I believe we should stay strong for our country and teach our children good discipline. I support it! I didn't know it wasn't required.

Somargie

Wed, Nov 2, 2011 : 12:15 a.m.

What does reciting the pledge every day have to do with "staying strong for our country or teaching discipline?" Not saying the pledge will not keep our country less strong or instill discipline in children..the very ideas are "silly."

Heardoc

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 12:16 a.m.

if it is fine with or without-- then what is the argument against? Just silly arguments from the leftists out there.

sh1

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 10:07 p.m.

I had to recite the pledge every day in school and I turned out all screwed up.

Jake C

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:56 p.m.

I am from Michigan and I had to recite the pledge every day in school (elementary school, at least) and I turned out just fine. I also have many friends who went to schools that didn't recite the Pledge every day, and they turned out just fine too. I'm not sure what "staying strong for our country" means, could you please explain that for me? And I too believe that we should teach our children good discipline. However, I believe that politicians in Lansing who want to force teachers to force children to say some words for 10 seconds every morning does absolutely nothing to teach our children good discipline. I'm pretty sure that's the the parents job.

AnnArborDon

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:56 p.m.

There are plenty of individuals who did not have to recite the pledge every day who also turned out "just fine." Teaching discipline is one thing - mandating a specific version of religion is another (an illegal one, at that).

Some Guy in 734

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:06 p.m.

This new regulation brought to you by The Party Of Small Government.

Dorchester

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 1:04 a.m.

Heard.. Why the anti socialist rant? You do realize that the Pledge was written by socialist Francis Bellamy.

Paul Taylor

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:07 p.m.

Apparently, one needs to be irony-challenged in order to be a member of the GOP!

Enso

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7 p.m.

Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

JustMyOpinion

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 2:40 p.m.

Pithy words which seem to have been saved gleefully for just such an occasion. Patriotism has also led men and women into the mouth of certain death because they hold the value of their nation and its society above their own. Somehow I don't see this issue (already settled by the Supreme Court) as worthy of the moniker or your treasured quip.

Paul Taylor

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7 p.m.

So, now the GOP wants to mandate--MANDATE--spending on flags, which have nothing to do with education? Really? There are no more pressing issues facing the schools? Society? Will they soon require that students carry a little book of Reagan quotes? I'd call Kahn a moron, but 1.: I don't want to sully the enlightened discourse of the comments section, and, 2.: I'd hate to offend the well-meaning, benign morons everywhere else.

Doug

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 3:12 p.m.

Really? Our flag has nothing to do with education? How absurd!

Paul Taylor

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 1:55 a.m.

Heardoc, I see that you are a constant violator of the conversation guidelines here. So, against my better judgement, I'll respond: First, I am not a parasite, and to call me such is simply abusive and hateful. Simply on that point I should report you for abuse, but that would feed your ego. You don't know me, so refrain from the name-calling, ok? Second, what do handouts have to do with this topic? I don't take anything I haven't earned, as a point of pride. On what basis do you make this accusation? Third, I was born here, and I resent it when some bully-boy hiding behind a fake name questions MY patriotism. However, I am going to continue being level-headed and not respond in-kind, but express my hope that you overcome whatever is so deeply disturbing you and causing you to lash out as you have on annarbor.com, apparently, for weeks.

smokeblwr

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 6:55 p.m.

Love it or leave it and if you don't love it you can GIT OUT!!

Dan

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 2:36 p.m.

I like how nobody understands that this is from South Park. Look up America git out south park on youtube and you'll probably find it.

SFK

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 1:38 p.m.

Does that also apply to the angry tea party folk? If they don't like our great president and his policies then they can "git out".

clownfish

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 9:10 p.m.

That is the most un-American post on the page. Being "free" means one is able to choose what to believe about ones country.

Mike S

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 9:10 p.m.

Doesn't the constitution guarantee citizens a right to be dissatisfied and remain in the country? I believe a citizen's duty is not to leave, or be blindly obedient, but to fix what is broken. If anything, that is what we should be teaching kids: how to get involved and fix things, that they can make a difference.

Ignatz

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:11 p.m.

Nope. I'm not leaving. Nor will I be compelled to do so.

Some Guy in 734

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:09 p.m.

Off-topic, but Paul, don't you get it? Fireman Barack is bad because of all the water damage he caused after Arsonist George.

a2cents

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:09 p.m.

And saying the pledge over and over and over addresses that, how? It is a shame that this takes time away from real problems... on second thought this would be preferable to conservative solutions to just about anything.

Some Guy in 734

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:07 p.m.

I'm pretty sure one of the things to love about this country is the lack of compulsory recitations, but what do I know?

Paul Taylor

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:03 p.m.

I hope this applies equally to conservatives who kvetch and moan over the least action of the Obama administration! Amurikuh, luv it ur leave it!!!11!!

garrisondyer

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:02 p.m.

Is it not possible for one to "love it" while either being a resident alien or refugee? Why should one who is here but isn't a citizen be required to recite a pledge to a flag that isn't theirs? That borders on brainwashing.

smokeblwr

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:01 p.m.

Your country?

Enso

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 6:59 p.m.

I don't have to love it, I'm an American. If you don't like that I'm not going to pledge allegiance to a piece of cloth (probably made in China) YOU can leave my country.

GoBlue1984

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 6:50 p.m.

Republican's make such a mess of everything. It's no wonder Democrats rarely get things done - they have to spend most of their time in office cleaning up the previous Republican's mess!

Bill

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 6:01 p.m.

You neglected to include Bush and Bush Jr on your list of worst.

RuralMom

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 6:48 p.m.

How would this work for Non U.S.Citizens attending school here in the U.S.? I know first hand when I was a child in school, a classmates parents where here as Resident Aliens from Canada working in the Automotive industry and they had to bring this issue up then and address it.

grye

Tue, Nov 1, 2011 : 1:35 p.m.

They stand silently in respect just as we would do if in another country.

arborani

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 10:51 p.m.

Words fail me. Especially the 1950's patch-in "under God."

NHolmes

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 10:11 p.m.

@zac - who gets to go to school for free? That's why we all pay taxes, immigrants too.

zax

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 9:20 p.m.

they were lucky they got to go to school free here. Or they could pay for private school. They weren't forced to attend public schools.

glacialerratic

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 9:18 p.m.

Really, cinnabar? So what would you think if the law of another country required the child of US parents to pledge daily allegiance to the country in which his/her family is temporarily living?

cinnabar7071

Mon, Oct 31, 2011 : 7:52 p.m.

If they dont like it here, well dont let the door hit you in the rear on your way out.

Bill would require Michigan students to recite Pledge of Allegiance every day

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