Mark

Fri, Nov 11, 2011 : 2:26 p.m.

Although I grew up at a time when we said the pledge in the morning, at some point I stopped saying "under God," probably in 6th grade. Saying the pledge didn't make me more American or less so by not saying it. Learning our history, seeing how the constitution works, and being aware of what makes our democracy what it is are far more important ways for children to appreciate our country. Now, MANDATING that all children have to say the pledge is no more different than Quaddafi requiring citizens to carry his "green book," or any other totalitarian state to REQUIRE allegiance. As pointed out above, mindless obedience (which I hate to say, the GOP seems good at) is not what our democracy is about. Instead of actively doing things to promote education, jobs, and seeing that kids get a brighter future, the GOP seems hell-bent on distracting us with these insulting attempts to bring us back to 1955.

Paul Epstein

Fri, Nov 11, 2011 : 9:42 a.m.

There are certainly at least thirty-five "freer" countries than this one, and this all but proves it. In fact, the pledge and the anthem need to be changed for accuracy, plus the Statue Of Liberty ought to be returned, or at least given to Sweden or Canada. Sad, it is. And it just keeps going and keeps going.

godsbreath64

Fri, Nov 11, 2011 : 8:28 a.m.

Hey, would someone soothe my liberty. It really needs it.

Jon Saalberg

Fri, Nov 11, 2011 : 12:05 a.m.

I guess once the GOP has passed this ridiculous measure, repealed the motorcycle helmet law, and criminalized marijuana use as much as possible, they will have completed the really important tasks on their agenda, and can get on with the less important tasks at hand - enhancing the state's employment environment, improving our education system, creating a viable mass-transit system, etc.

spm

Thu, Nov 10, 2011 : 9:15 p.m.

When did this stop being a normal part of school? I recall doing it all through the 70s in school. Can't say I feel more patriotic because of it. Mostly I just recall us laughing when invariably someone would say "amen" at the end of the pledge.

townie54

Thu, Nov 10, 2011 : 9:12 p.m.

and where are the schools going to get the money to pay for court costs because this law will be easily defeated if a kids parents wants to fight it?Lawyers will love this "LAW"

Patriotism ForAll

Thu, Nov 10, 2011 : 7:04 p.m.

Part II 9. Encourages jingoism. Antagonistic tribalism. No other countries have their citizens swear a loyalty oath to their government (except Mexico and the Philippines, mimicking the U.S). 10. Unsavory connection with Nazis. The Pledge originally featured the Nazi-style salute. In fact, Hitler got it from the Italian fascists who much admired, that's right, kids in America doing it while saying the Pledge. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellamy_salute" rel='nofollow'>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellamy_salute</a> (Man, if that doesn't give you chills) 11. Is patriotic lip-service in place of, even at the expense of, actual civic engagement and action. (Symbolic patriotism) 12. Is uncritical patriotism at the expense of maintaining oversight over government. &quot;My country right or wrong&quot;, is just plain wrong. (Blind patriotism) 13. Considered by many Christians idolatry, taking the name of God in vain, swearing oaths, serving two masters. 14. Divides the nation (and the classroom) along religious lines. Only those represented by the Judeo-Christian &quot;God&quot; need apply as patriots (Ironic that &quot;under God&quot;, comes right before &quot;indivisible.&quot;) 15. Is hypocritical on the part of adults, bullying kids into doing something that adults themselves don't do. (You say the Pledge every day, do you, and on a government mandated schedule?) 16. And last, but not least, pledging allegiance to a flag is just stupid.

Patriotism ForAll

Thu, Nov 10, 2011 : 7:03 p.m.

Enough reasons here for anyone, liberal or conservative, religious or atheist to have the Pledge of Allegiance permanently removed from public schools: Part I 1. Meaning lost in endless repetition, no explanation given, no history provided. 2. Comprises an ideological viewpoint that is forced on little kids by authorities to whom they are dependent. 3. The two above, taken together, is the definition of brainwashing. 4. The absurdity of having to repeat a pledge daily that apparently is only good for 24 hours. 5. The routine of it, which makes you feel like a brain-dead, robot sheep as opposed to a citizen of a free country who enjoys individual liberty. 6. Subordinates the people to the government, which we are told on good authority was created by us, with allegiance to us, not us to it. 7. Concocted by a company that sold flags as part of a plan to compel schools to buy more flags while instilling socialist-style nationalism in American children. 8. Exalts nationalism over federalism contrary to the basic principles of our Republic. Subsuming states and individual rights to central government is a necessary pre-requisite for a centralized, socialist government to gain traction. This was an explicit goal of Francis Bellamy, the socialist author of the PofA.

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Thu, Nov 10, 2011 : 6:48 p.m.

les mis wrote: &quot;This flag means nothing to our government, but it means the world to those who fight for us.&quot; Only someone who has never served in the military could make such an absurdly incorrect statement. Our freedom is the result of their blood being spilled. But they spill their blood for each other. They fight for each other. They serve their buddies. EVERY first-hand account of the current wars, of Vietnam, Korea, the two world wars, the Civil War, etc.... make this clear. They might join for patriotism. But under fire, the last thing they are thinking about is mom, apple pies, Chevrolets, and the flag. They are fighting for their buddies, not for the flag, and certainly not for the K-mart patriots whose patriotism extends only to meaningless gestures but who will not (God forbid) actually make a sacrifice for their country. Good Night and Good Luck

Roy Munson

Thu, Nov 10, 2011 : 4:33 p.m.

Do all you Un-American people send your kids to Ann Arbor Public Schools? lol. Reason #586 why my kids will NEVER go to one of those. We will be well outta here!

clownfish

Thu, Nov 10, 2011 : 3:09 p.m.

Patriotism cannot be forced. There is no law, rule or code that says any American has to be patriotic. There is nothing that says reciting the pledge makes one patriotic. This is a waste of time and money.

the thing is...

Thu, Nov 10, 2011 : 2:45 p.m.

1. This is an excellent opportunity for American citizens to resist the intrusion of unfunded &quot;Big Government&quot; mandates into their personal lives. 2. The Supreme Court of the United States has already weighed in on this issue (as other posters have previously noted, and thank you for doing so). 3. Jobs?

Rork Kuick

Thu, Nov 10, 2011 : 1:50 p.m.

The bill is actually anti-patriotic. It flies in the face of the first amendment. From the original West Virginia v Barnette supreme court verdict: &quot;If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein.&quot; Teach our kids about our constitution, please.

Mark

Thu, Nov 10, 2011 : 1:30 p.m.

Even if this does get signed into law by Synder, it will likely get challenged fairly quickly and it won't hold up, because it's contrary to a ruling by a higher court. Our illustrious Republican legislators seem to have forgotten that this issue was dealt with some time ago by the US Supreme Court, which ruled in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette that under the First Amendment, children are protected from being forced to recite the Pledge of Allegiance at school.

Roy Munson

Thu, Nov 10, 2011 : 1:17 p.m.

It hasn't been THAT long since I was in elementary school. We said it every day and had a flag in every classroom. I guess I didn't realize that whiny atheists and Un-American idiots had flags and the pledge removed from the classroom. Nice job, Senate!!!

Evergreen

Thu, Nov 10, 2011 : 1:12 p.m.

Here is Red Skeltons view of The Pledge Of Allegiance some time ago. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPbIls0iOnI" rel='nofollow'>www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPbIls0iOnI</a>

Evergreen

Thu, Nov 10, 2011 : 1:03 p.m.

In the 50's when I was in grade school we said the Pledge of Allegiance at the start of each day in lower grades. We also SANG the Star Spangled Banner [not the best choice for the national song I wish America The Beautiful took it's place] but we didn't just stand their we all sang. Why is it such a big deal to you folks to drop such patriotic traditions from our schools? I don't think it will be a problem for volunteer groups to PROVIDE flags for school rooms. Come to Milan and the dedication of the Veteran Wall Friday at 5:30 and you will see many many flags including one that flew over the capital. And a flag provided one of our members given him upon his service retirement. And if In God We Trust is your line in the sand, start using German, Italian and Japanese money cause guys it's on the money too. Perhaps the Koran is your choice, and you have that right because it was fought for! But many generations have accepted these patriotic traditions because traditions give us a home base, a safe place one that can be shared by all ages. You may be too your young some of you but we had bomb shelters in front or backyards when I was growing up. Not exactly a flower bed, but a design based or real fear. Other considerations I've read I agree with. Teaching to the test is crap! Teach to life, teach usable skills, teach credit card 101, teach how to respect others so as not to have to un-teach bullying. Seriously, how much was learned in that 1.5 days before a family holiday? Teachers got paid for that holiday if cost cutting is your concern, there was a small reduction and families could plan one last outing, close up the cabin, go to the fair... I appear to be swimming against the flow here, and that makes me sad. No wonder we can't play outside all day without parents worrying, and have to lock our doors. Didn't use to be that way when I was saying The Pledge Of Allegiance!

Gramma

Thu, Nov 10, 2011 : 12:46 p.m.

Requiring the pledge is unconstitutional with or without &quot;under God&quot; as it interferes with freedom of religion as well as freedom of speech. If I truly believe in these 2 freedoms, I cannot support my country by refusing to allow them.

1959Viking

Thu, Nov 10, 2011 : 12:01 p.m.

Chaz you are right about under God being a later addition in 1954, but actually it isn't unconstitutional. Since there is no specificity to the God cited, it would be allowed.

cmotdibbler

Thu, Nov 10, 2011 : 10:27 a.m.

&quot;When fascism comes to America, it will come wrapped in the flag and waving a cross" - Sinclair Lewis

DennisP

Thu, Nov 10, 2011 : 6:10 a.m.

I think we should encourage schools to recite the pledge and to have flags apparent in the schools. But, I don't think we need a law to mandate it. Having gone to a parochial school, we always recited the pledge and had flags in our room. It wasn't required then and we didn't need a law. My child's school does it now. It's just something that's done. A law mandating it stands four square against the very pledge the children and adults recite. We all should want to recite the pledge. But, it should be voluntary. Go ahead and think poorly of person who refuses to do so but don't criminalize him. We have a 1st amendment for a reason. Yes, I realize the law is aimed at public school districts which are governmental entities and not individuals with individual rights. But, there is a right way to teach a lesson and a wrong way. This is the wrong way because it is antithetical to the very core of our nation. You make a pledge because you want to not because you have to. The better method would have been to offer schools an incentive to recite the pledge. Give them an additional annual stipend for new equipment or supplies if they make the pledge a part of the school morning. I guarantee you'd get high participation then. Or, just use good old publicity. Have school districts publicize if each school in the district recites the pledge or doesn't. Let the voters and the parents know what the policies are in their local schools. That will be a better approach. I don't see the need for any laws to require the pledge but it's ok to encourage it. If a school doesn't want to do it, they should be able to do so but be prepared to explain their reason.

Macabre Sunset

Thu, Nov 10, 2011 : 5:27 a.m.

This is unfortunate. I hope Snyder does the right thing and refuses to sign this into law if it reaches his desk. We elected him to fix the economy, not indoctrinate our children.

Lola

Thu, Nov 10, 2011 : 4:44 a.m.

I am going to apply for a small business loan so I can start an American flag manufacturing factory. ChaChing!

Sparty

Thu, Nov 10, 2011 : 4:25 a.m.

As noted previously, it's unconstitutional to require the pledge and 2) who is paying for the US and Michigan flags for every classroom in every school in the State after the education budget was slashed to bare minimums already? Will they cancel classes for a month to pay for this? More extreme overreaching and right-wing partisanship as they reach deeper and deeper into local governments and try to control more and more individual liberties.

Loopy

Thu, Nov 10, 2011 : 4:11 a.m.

My goodness . . . and yet some were foaming at the mouth when our president wanted to give an address to students telling them to stay in school and study hard. Praying to a piece of cloth - mandate. Listening to the elected leader of your country encourage you to do your best - tyranny. Got it.

Joe Hood

Thu, Nov 10, 2011 : 3:26 a.m.

Um, when did the remove the American flags from the classrooms and stop saying the Pledge? I mean, isn't this still standard fare? If it isn't happening, I guess there should be a law.

nickcarraweigh

Thu, Nov 10, 2011 : 3:07 a.m.

This is fine, as far as it goes. We need the Senate to stand up for things like this so we realize how in-tune they are with the needs of their constituents. But, it doesn't go far enough. Wake Up People! We need a bounty placed on the parents of the misguided, recalcitrant boys and girls who refuse the take the Pledge. Send the parents to secret camps someplace, and turn the kids over to the authorities so they can be taught to obey. The kids who inform can use the bounty money for USA-made candy.

ChrisW

Thu, Nov 10, 2011 : 3:03 a.m.

To get the full effect, I think they should do the original Bellamy Salute while saying the pledge: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Students_pledging_allegiance_to_the_American_flag_with_the_Bellamy_salute.jpg" rel='nofollow'>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Students_pledging_allegiance_to_the_American_flag_with_the_Bellamy_salute.jpg</a>

quetzalcoatl

Thu, Nov 10, 2011 : 3:02 a.m.

Just what we need to jumpstart the economy, encourage entrepreneurs, restore Michigan's place as a manufacturing mecca, house the homeless and feed the hungry. And you thought the Legislature did not have its eye on the ball! Next week, they are coming out For Good, Against Evil!

nicole

Thu, Nov 10, 2011 : 3 a.m.

It's called, teaching love of your country. Which is not done at all in the public schools today. If you are a citizen, you should know the pledge and kids should learn it by reciting it in school. I did and I'm glad for it. It's as simple as that.

Lola

Thu, Nov 10, 2011 : 2:55 a.m.

How are we supposed to afford to buy all of these flags when we need to cut $14 M from the school budget? This bill is insane and if it becomes a law I will give my child permission to not recite it and will willingly suffer any consequences there might be for such an act of civil disobedience. The whole thing seems a little Hitler-Youthish to me. I am incredibly tired of Neo Cons trying to legislate patriotism and morality.

Annie

Thu, Nov 10, 2011 : 2:21 a.m.

What bothers me the most about this is the fact that this bill will require even young children to recite it. Kids who have no idea what the words mean. We used to have to recite it at the elementary school I went to. Up until about fifth grade I thought it was about &quot;Pledge&quot; the cleaning spray and &quot;the republic where witches stand&quot;. What good did that do me? What a joke. I will be one of those parents that gives my child permission to NOT recite the pledge... We criticize other cultures for indoctrinating their &quot;crazy&quot; (by America standards) beliefs into children (i.e. Taliban and Nazi Germany), yet we are about to do the same thing. Can you say, hypocritical?

Chaz H

Thu, Nov 10, 2011 : 2:20 a.m.

Unless they remove the line that was added June 14, 1954, this is unconstitutional..

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Thu, Nov 10, 2011 : 2:04 a.m.

Governor Rick's New Pledge: I pledge allegiance to the flag of the Oligarchs of America And to the Koch Brothers, front men for the Wall Street Barons, One nation Completely divided, With profits and luxury for the 1% Good Night and Good Luck

J Shaker

Thu, Nov 10, 2011 : 2 a.m.

no no no no no. this is a hollow expression of someone else's idea of patriotism. maybe once everything is cool in this country such a practice will occur naturally and enthusiastically. but to force it on people? how about a bill requiring each public school student to start the day safe, well nourished, and with the promise of a day full of quality well rounded education, physical activity, and artistic expression under the guidance of a well paid, happy, and fully staffed school faculty?

Tex Treeder

Thu, Nov 10, 2011 : 1:52 a.m.

Anything which is not mandatory is forbidden!

Momma G

Thu, Nov 10, 2011 : 1:29 a.m.

Gee, the elementary school that I retired from has been doing that for years - on good thing that came out of a bad administrator! It's about time all schools do it. We recited it every day when we were in school and I think it helped many of us become better citizens. I think the next thing should be &quot;uniforms&quot; for K-8 students, too.

Townie

Thu, Nov 10, 2011 : 1:23 a.m.

Nice that our Republican overlords are focussing on the most pressing problems facing our state. I think we need have our legislators tested for drugs regularly now since they seemed to be legislating under the influence of some kind of substance... Can anyone check and see if Mr. Kahn ever served his country in any capacity? Probably, like Dick Cheney, he was 'too busy' to get around to doing that but now he's a gung ho 'patriot'.

Charlie Brown's Ghost

Thu, Nov 10, 2011 : 1:11 a.m.

I'm all for requiring the teaching of the Pledge, requiring the display of the American flag in the classroom and in front of the school (even in the rain, which is appropriate if it's an all-weather flag), and requiring the teacher to facilitate the time for its recitation, during which time each child should at least stand and show respect for the tradition. However, I'm not for requiring each individual to recite it.

Susie Q

Thu, Nov 10, 2011 : 12:44 a.m.

Give me a break! With all the hurdles and obstacles thrown in the way of schools in Michigan, this is only the most recent.....school cannot begin until after Labor Day to appease the tourist industry, local districts cannot make their own calendar for school vacations (they must be coordinated by county), MME test MUST be given on a certain day, school employees must pay 20% of health insurance costs, etc, etc. When will these jokers quit political posturing and demonstrate some leadership? Now schools will need to purchase flags for every classroom and devote instructional time to the &quot;Pledge&quot;. Oh yes, they have cut funding to schools resulting in larger class sizes, re-allocated K-12 monies for higher education (for the first time since Prop A in 1994), attacked collective bargaining rights, attempted to legalize bullying for religious or moral reasons...... Somehow, I think I would feel better if Senator Krahn focused on something besides education. I think he has done enough damage already.

proudtobeme

Thu, Nov 10, 2011 : 12:36 a.m.

And who is going to make sure this is happening,in EVERY classroom? AND what if it doesn't happen? Will teachers be thrown in jail? principals? What will the &quot;punishment&quot; be?