Chosen location for Ann Arbor's newest dog park is 'offensive,' church pastor says
The snow-covered area in the foreground, just north of the Chapin Street entrance to West Park, is where Ann Arbor officials want to construct a fenced area for off-leash dog play. The New Hope Baptist Church across the street opposes that plan.
Ryan J. Stanton | AnnArbor.com
The Rev. Rodrick Green and church trustee Thomas Miree are speaking out against the city's proposal to establish a small off-leash playground for canines at the Chapin Street entrance to West Park, directly across the street from the church.
"It upsets the dignity of our worship services," Green said recently during a visit to City Hall. "It's going to be a noise problem because we're conducting our services at the time when people are going to be bringing their dogs, and dogs make noise. You can't control dog noise."
The New Hope Baptist Church stands at 218 Chapin St. in Ann Arbor.
Ryan J. Stanton | AnnArbor.com
The city's Park Advisory Commission, which heard the church's concerns last month, is recommending approval of the dog park with the stipulation that city staff will report back at the one-year anniversary of its implementation to review operations, including noise levels.
City park officials said there's been a desire in the community for some time to establish a more centrally located dog park near downtown. Ann Arbor currently has two-off leash dog parks: one at Swift Run in the southeast part of the city and one at Olson Park in the northeast part of the city.
Aside from concerns about noise, church officials say having a dog park directly across the street — adjacent to one of the church's parking lots and its adult day care center — poses a safety risk.
"We have a situation where children, who are sometimes afraid of dogs, are put at risk, and maybe now they have a disincentive to use the park because of the dogs," Green said. "There are so many reasons for them not to do it, and only a couple of reasons in favor of it."
City Council Member Christopher Taylor, who serves as a council representative on the Park Advisory Commission, said the church's concerns have been taken seriously.
A sign near the area where the city wants to establish a fenced dog park asks dog owners to pick up after their pets. West Park already is a popular place for many dog owners to take their leashed pets.
Ryan J. Stanton | AnnArbor.com
Just like at the city's other dog parks, Taylor said, there would be a double-gated entry system whereby dogs and their owners would pass through one gate into an enclosed space. After they close the first gate behind them, they would open a second gate to enter the park.
"As for the noise and so forth, PAC's experience with dog parks is that they are not particularly disruptive — certainly less disruptive than unsupervised dog play," Taylor said.
"At the same time," Taylor added, "PAC was sensitive to the fact that this is closely proximate to the church, recommended that it be reviewed within a year … and made it clear, too, that they wanted the infrastructure associated with any dog park placed at this location to be temporary — to be easily removable in the event that it proved not to be satisfactory."
Miree addressed council members at a recent meeting and urged them to consider another location within West Park that's farther away from the church and the street.
"Anyone who's done planning knows that you need conflicting land use buffers for noise, appearance and other considerations," Miree said. "We want the city to consider the adverse impact that a dog park may have on the neighborhood, particularly safety."
Green reiterated the message that the church wouldn't mind having a dog park at West Park as long as it was farther back on the park property.
"West Park is a large park," he said. "There's no reason why it has to be placed in an area that's going to be offensive to us as a people and as a church, and right now it's offensive."
A marker on the outside of New Hope Baptist Church reveals some of the church's history.
Ryan J. Stanton | AnnArbor.com
"We have over 300 members at the New Hope Baptist Church directly in front of the proposed dog park," he said. "On the right-hand side of the dog park is our day care center where older people come. On the left-hand side of the dog park is a swing set for the children.
"And behind the dog park is the baseball diamond," he continued. "So right smack in the middle of all this pedestrian activity, they want to put a dog park. It's ludicrous."
Taylor said PAC was deliberate in choosing the grassy area just north of the entrance off Chapin Street where the city bought and demolished a house in recent years.
"The Park Advisory Commission and the park staff had specific reasons for why this was the best location within West Park for a dog park," he said. "It's not activated in another manner, and it would not impact other uses of the park, which would occur at other places within the park. So I don't expect there to be a change, although I know the staff and commission is always open to input."
PAC Chairwoman Julie Grand said the community's desire for dog parks near downtown surfaced repeatedly in the city's park planning process. A dog park also was high on the list when the city asked neighbors for preferred uses for city-owned property at 721 N. Main.
The city put together this map showing the location of the proposed dog park. The spot marked near the Chapin Street entrance would provide quick and easy access to the dog park from the adjacent parking lot that's accessed by Chapin Street.
City of Ann Arbor
Ryan J. Stanton covers government and politics for AnnArbor.com. Reach him at ryanstanton@annarbor.com or 734-623-2529. You also can follow him on Twitter or subscribe to AnnArbor.com's email newsletters.
Comments
mady
Tue, Jan 15, 2013 : 9:19 p.m.
I'm not at all surprised. I used to live just around the corner on Miller and once, when I was using their driveway(on foot)as a shortcut, someone pulling out and using the same driveway yelled at me to get out of the way(which, upon seeing the car coming toward me,I was doing anyway)! Way to spread God's love, people!!!!
Classof2014
Tue, Jan 15, 2013 : 8:14 p.m.
This idea is *offensive*?! Are they serious? It won't be a safety hazard, there are gong to be walls to keep the dogs in. Too much noise? I live next to a dog park and the dogs never make too much noise, nor has there been any noise complaints about the dogs.
Charlie
Tue, Jan 15, 2013 : 7:43 p.m.
The reason a DOG has so many friends is because s/he wags his/her tail instead of his/her tongue!
MamaC
Tue, Jan 15, 2013 : 4:05 p.m.
Hahaha! Thanks for a good laugh. Typical this type of article would generate over 300 comments of soapboxing self-righteousness about everything from whether you like dogs to what you think of religion. Absurd! Hahaha!
StopCrying
Tue, Jan 15, 2013 : 7:14 p.m.
My dog is smarter than your dog.
MikeB
Tue, Jan 15, 2013 : 3:37 p.m.
I really don't see why this is "ludicrous" as Rev Green says? Citizens who have dogs deserve a place to let them loose. Citizens have equal rights to a church. This is city property so if it benefits the citizens it makes sense.
Jon Saalberg
Tue, Jan 15, 2013 : 12:56 p.m.
Wow. Ann Arborites have apparently found the next most pressing issue of the day, judging by the hundreds of comments. Not development downtown. Not dilapidated structures on Main Street. It's a dog park on Chapin Street. We really do not appreciate how good things are in our little city.
Sue
Tue, Jan 15, 2013 : 4:48 a.m.
It's a Baptist Church, every Baptist Church I've ever attended, the pastor preaches VERY loudly, so it' shouldn't be an issue.
racerx
Tue, Jan 15, 2013 : 3:29 a.m.
So, none of the so-called "leaders" saw the church across the street. Are you kidding me? Chris Taylor, lets see what side your bread is really buttered on. Your stance will speak volumes. How about Frustenberg (sp) park across from Huron High School? There's plenty of parking, the park is hardly used in several areas of the park, and it would seem easy to fence in an area in that park rather easily. Oh? Did I say something about our above approach parks? Useless space? Under utilized? To far away? How about West Park...the Seventh Street side! No parking? No problem. Who drives their dog to the park to walk it anyway? Don't we all have bikes in this town? Sorry, but to propose a dog park near the church is insane. But then what would you really expect from self righteous ex-hippies who've all of a sudden found religion after putting the bong down. Good grief Charlie Brown!
StopCrying
Tue, Jan 15, 2013 : 3:56 p.m.
Insane? lol um no, not really.
jen777
Tue, Jan 15, 2013 : 2:15 a.m.
one more comment that probably will not be read as i am far down the list, but, i do not consider this a dog park. as noted in the comments of an earlier story on this proposal, a small run area is not sufficient space. the dog parks i have been to in other cities are large spaces where a dog can really get a good run in chasing a ball flung fro. a chuck it. the proposal is smaller than my backyard and i am in an old westside house. at least use the large green area of west park.
A2centsworth
Tue, Jan 15, 2013 : 2:14 a.m.
they are baptists, and by their religious conviction intolerant. Dogs fenced in a GATED dog park are not going to scare anyone. How ridiculous. They are offended? They offend me with their brand of limited tolerance for other religions. I say, move the holy rollers out to the country or tell them the dogs are not barking, they are speaking in tongues.
Cleatus12
Tue, Jan 15, 2013 : 1:03 a.m.
Release the hounds on Fat Bill.
music to my ear
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 11:52 p.m.
'WOW' lots of comments about mans best friend so far 292 and counting donot not mess with them there doggies sir
jcj
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 11:08 p.m.
I always look forward to going to someones house that has a dog that insist on jumping on your lap and licking your face after they have licked themselves. This only means they will now have licked a number of other dogs before giving their owner a kiss. Maybe they should have a station with wipes so you can clean your dog up after they have familiarized themselves with other dogs.
jcj
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 11 p.m.
Are dog owners so lazy they could not walk further into West Park with their little crap producers? Why does it have to be within feet of a public sidewalk?
kindred spirit
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 10:02 p.m.
Wheeler Park is an excellent idea for a location of a dog park. Fencing at West Park will look strange. Well, frankly, the whole of Chapin Street, as far as the buildings are concerned, could use a plan for improvement. Selling more parking space to the church sounds good, too.
ArgoC
Tue, Jan 15, 2013 : 6:03 p.m.
Kris, if it's too small, then that will become obvious. Let's take a bit of a risk and ... find out? We're capable of learning!
zanzerbar
Tue, Jan 15, 2013 : 11:34 a.m.
"Shoot, we could tell dog owners to privatize dog parks, just like everything else, because it is sooo good when the market takes care of things . Let them buy their own land, fence it, supply poop bags, enforce it, clean it, plow the parking spaces and the rest. Oh, wait. Snyder may even read this website. Don't take our parks away! Good Idea
kris
Tue, Jan 15, 2013 : 11:07 a.m.
I think what's proposed at West Park will be too small. I expect that this dog park will be hugely popular due to it's convenient location and see problems arising.
kindred spirit
Tue, Jan 15, 2013 : 2:20 a.m.
Hmm. I think Wheeler Park is an excellent location because it has a large space for dogs to run, say, away from the play area, where I too have taken my child. I said nothing of the frequent users, stereotypical or otherwise, you will notice, of any of the parks. If noise from the dogs is a concern, Wheeler Park has fewer homes in such a close proximity, and would be out done by the train. I think fencing at West Park will look odd, as it would be in a rectangle, near the street, which will eliminate its enticing entrance as a park. Nothing else in West Park is symmetrical, and now introduce this afterthought rectangle? Wheeler Park already has fencing, so the dog fence will be less conspicuous there. A dog park there could be larger than the proposed one at West Park. And the city should get rid of the ridiculous meters along Depot Street right there so dog owners could park for free. Zanzerbar, it sounds like you are playing NIMBY yourself, and sound a bit defensive, too. We all like our parks best. Has anyone done a survey about which neighborhoods the majority of dog owners live? Shoot, we could tell dog owners to privatize dog parks, just like everything else, because it is sooo good when the market takes care of things . Let them buy their own land, fence it, supply poop bags, enforce it, clean it, plow the parking spaces and the rest. Oh, wait. Snyder may even read this website. Don't take our parks away!
zanzerbar
Tue, Jan 15, 2013 : 1:23 a.m.
Last couple of sentences were not directed at you, kind ,kindred ,spirit.
zanzerbar
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 11:44 p.m.
I disagree. Too small. That park gets a lot of use, from the children's play area to the basketball courts and track area where soccer, etc is played. And folks actually have picnics/events there.And if you have a problem with homeless people there. GO Talk to them. Tell them why! Other wise.......Q.Y.B.
Ypsi.Support
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 8:40 p.m.
"It upsets the dignity of our worship services," --- What a load of B.S. New Hope Baptist Church doesn't seem to be a community player to me. The Dog park is an amazing idea, and that area seems picture perfect for it. The church's "parishoners" should stay OUT of it if they don't want to get "hurt". Some people are just ridiculous.
rm1
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 8:24 p.m.
Steve says: >> Could times be used for the dog park area? Say no dogs during 8am-noon on Sundays? Or some similar type of compromise? << Great suggestion!
Steve
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 7:51 p.m.
NIMBY - That's basically what the church leaders are saying here, not in my back yard. When I look on a map it seems there will be little exposure of the fence on the road. Plus the dog park is across the street from the church, not right next to it. Not sure arguing the point of noise is legitimate considering the church property backs directly up to the train tracks. This park is so underutilized for it's size and this is a great solution. How better to get people in to use the park, especially with a space that gets no use now. I would think a bigger concern from the church leaders would be the amount of free downtown parking(park and street) that they are able to use that may be in jeopardy with added people using the park. People with concerns about this are mostly in the "I don't want it all" camp, as opposed to the "I don't like it's location camp." Could times be used for the dog park area? Say no dogs during 8am-noon on Sundays? Or some similar type of compromise? I like the location though.
thecompound
Tue, Jan 15, 2013 : 12:58 a.m.
Isn't NIMBY when you want something, just not in your own back yard? It's my understanding the church isn't the one looking to have a dog park, no? Now if the folks who do want one live near an alternative place for a dog park but they don't want it there, THAT would be NIMBY.
Belisa
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 7:49 p.m.
what if someone went around and took a collection from the dogs for the church on those holy Sundays ... bet you wouldn't have a problem then.
justcurious
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 7:35 p.m.
The anti-religion sentiment in this town is unbelievable. How silly.
TMC216
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 6:38 p.m.
I'm amused that Rev. Rodrick Green and church trustee Thomas Miree are complaining. Many houses of worship have periodic services for dogs, cats, et al. What's the problem with God's flock caring for other creatures of God? Your church members don't poop and pee or have respite in the outdoors? I'd assure not to attend services here.
gofigure
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 6:31 p.m.
Let the Church buy the lot and turn it into parking.
scott newell
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 6:28 p.m.
Its a good spot for a small dog park but they should have extra wide set backs from the sidewalk and the daycare parking lot. I personally think the city should put about 10 more dog parks around town. HOWEVER, the dog park should be simple, Chicago style, basically a chain link fence, a basic gravel path, and VERY MINIMAL money spent. I doubt the city is capable of this. Just look at the money wasted for the new entrance into Bandemere Ridge park next to the Elks lodge. A perfect example of extreme spending, way too much on even the most basic projects.
TheInfamousOne
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 6:18 p.m.
It sounds like the minister is "barking" up a storm. :) I think we should put the pray theory to the test and let the minister pray about it and see if God answers. Or maybe he should call Micheal Vick for some advice. It's too premature to assume that this will become to big of a distraction to church services. If the church does not pay any taxes, then they should not have any say. Let the flaming begin. :)
TheInfamousOne
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 9:09 p.m.
Nice try Ciccero, I never mentioned voting. If the reverend wants to be a puppy hater, he has every right to "bark". In other words, it's up to city council not an establishment of religion. You know, something that is close to the first amendment. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof kind of thing.
Ciccero
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 7:48 p.m.
So on your theory if you dont pay property taxes you shouldnt be permitted to vote.
rm1
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 6:06 p.m.
Someone noted: "The church itself doesn't pay property taxes. The members of the church pay taxes, all sorts of taxes. They pay incomes taxes, property taxes sales taxes, name a tax and some members of the Church pay it." Of course the same is true of the University of Michigan, which has a total budget of nearly $6 Billion -- less than 5% of which ($273 Million) comes from the state government. And in addition the U of M buys hundreds of millions in supplies locally, to say nothing of the local economic benefits of the U of M's ongoing construction projects, The complaint that a church, or other entity exempt by law from local property taxes, is some sort of undeserving outlaw, or somehow should not be entitled to the benefits of local law or government services, is heard a lot on these comment boards. But that complaint doesn't become more rational or less ludicrous as a result of frequent repetition.
Craig Lounsbury
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 8:23 p.m.
"UM is a government entity. The Church is not. BIG difference.' The only big difference is the amount of the exemption. That church is probably exempt from a few thousand dollars of property taxes. The University a few million.
rm1
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 8:17 p.m.
>> UM is a government entity. The Church is not. BIG difference. << I'm not sure I see an important difference, with an impact on government policy decisions. Both are exempt from local property taxes, which was the complaint (apparently together with the odd suggestion that somehow the church was less deserving of municipal concern than taxpaying institutions). Unless your suggestion here is that churches' exemptions are a bad idea, to be disfavored?
Ciccero
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 7:54 p.m.
Clownfish I think both you and the University of Michigan seem to have forgotten where their original funding came from. Perhaps less than 5% of its ongoing funding comes from the state it didnt hatch itself and become the mighty uncaring government entity it is. Seems as if Ann Arbor is adopting the same policy that their big brother the U has we might hear your complaint but its our decision to make and it has been made.
justcurious
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 7:33 p.m.
Ah yes, but think of how much money would be collected if U of M DID pay property taxes!!
clownfish
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 7:14 p.m.
UM is a government entity. The Church is not. BIG difference.
rsa221
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 5:57 p.m.
Churches are exempt from paying taxes, right?
Craig Lounsbury
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 6:24 p.m.
but the members aren't. the church is a building. The owners of the building don't pay property taxes on the building. The folks who own and use the building pay the same taxes everyone else does separate from the building.
Tesla
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 5:46 p.m.
What would Jesus say? I imagine that after an extended period of rolling of the eyes and a good face palm he would say " My children are a bunch of Morons"
CB
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 5:32 p.m.
Oh please. I lived by the church and the proposed dog park until one year ago. The only noise I ever heard were some bands that should probably keep their day jobs. What WAS annoying were the lazy able-bodied people getting dropped off at said church (in beautiful weather) while their "drivers" blocked the whole road. Dogs DO pay taxes, those dog park tags are not cheap. And, we had a very large yard but we are conscientious dog owners who take the dog for several walks every day.
laura1234
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 5:27 p.m.
I was out at Hudson Mills over the weekend with my toddler son. We couldn't walk off the path because of all the dog crap. I'm assuming that the dog owners at Hudson Mills are "responsible" also. I don't blame the church for not wanting this right across the street.
laura1234
Wed, Jan 16, 2013 : 3:04 a.m.
I know what dog crap looks like. There really was so much that we couldn't get off the path in some areas. I'm assuming this was because it was warm weather and snow melted, revealing plenty of frozen turds. And it's all sitting right next to the path.
a2ex-pat
Tue, Jan 15, 2013 : 2:24 a.m.
@laura1234...I walk my dogs at Hudson Mills frequently, and yes, I most definitely AM a "responsible" dog owner. I am never without poop bags, and I wouldn't dream of not picking up after my dogs. And I'm no excrement expert, but I'm fairly sure that a good portion of all that crap you're seeing is left by the deer, coyotes, geese and swans that I've seen on our walks. I've walked the paved portion of that park for many years, and never once have I been afraid to step off the path for fear of stepping in poop. Nor have I ever witnessed someone not picking up after their pet. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but to blame all unidentified poop in a 1,549 acre park seems a bit extreme. Especially since it has no real bearing on the actual article you were commenting on.
justcurious
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 7:31 p.m.
As I understand it, dogs are only allowed on the paved pathways on leash at Hudson Mills. If they are on the nature trails then their owner is in violation and can be reported. I know that doesn't help when the bad dog owner's have already left the area before you though.
CB
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 5:36 p.m.
Just as there are people who drive in the passing lanes for no apparent reason, there are people who don't pick up their dog crap. Please don't judge the responsible dog owners. And if you see someone leaving their dog droppings, please report them! Not only is that a very inconsiderate thing to do, it is also unsanitary. When I frequented the dog park on Platt and Ellsworth, I rarely saw dog droppings.
SMC
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 5:21 p.m.
I find that Sunday morning church bells upset the dignity of my sleeping in.
Piledriver
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 5:15 p.m.
Hey, I'm not one to start rumors or anything, but I hear the master site plan includes building a half-way kennel/rehab center to treat dogs addicted to Kibble & Bits.......There goes the neighborhood!
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 5:07 p.m.
So an institution that pays no taxes objects to how taxpayer funded land will be used? Pretty funny, that. GN&GL
ThinkingOne
Fri, Jan 18, 2013 : 4:25 a.m.
Sorry Ed, gotta go against you on this one. This country was founded on the premise of people and their right to gather and their right to speak publicly about things that concern them. We do not require anyone to be landowners or property tax payers to have that right. You are very close to saying that paying taxes is the key to being able to speak publicly. You can debate all day about whether or not churches should pay taxes. You can also debate all day about dog parks. But I see no debate that an entity has that right to participate in the debate even if they don't pay property taxes.
Craig Lounsbury
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 6:06 p.m.
that would be one way to look at it. Another way could be to say the tax paying members of a club that meets once a week voices an opinion on how their taxes are used. Just because the structure they meet in is tax exempt doesn't mean the people who enter the structure lose their first amendment right to speak. I could argue that a tax paying member of that church has more of a tax paying tie to that neighborhood than a tax paying dog owner who comes from 12 blocks away.
Themadcatter
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 5:04 p.m.
And places of worship are not noisy??? I live next to a school that rented out thier cafeteria every Sunday for several years to 3 different chuches. Their "music" was so loud it vibrated my window. For four hours every Sunday I could not work in my back yard because of the boom, boom, boom of their overly applified bass guitar. Apparently they felt the only way to drill the wrath of God into thier parishioners was to deafen them so they cannot hear anything else. I talked to the pasters 3 times to no avail. (I was told to "take it to the school" by one paster). I contacted the school and the police, also to no avail. Churches are apparently exempted from noise ordinances. I would have had to sue them to get them to turn the volume down. As for the dog park - I wouldn't want one next to me either - but I think they are fine in the right setting.
Piledriver
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 4:59 p.m.
Dude, I think the money would be better spent building a combination Dog/Skate Park for those cool K-9's that like to hang out with their pack and skateboard. Afterall it is Ann Arbor.
TrappedinMI
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 4:47 p.m.
I want to repeat a reply I made to someone here. For people who don't own dogs: The smell is a nonissue. Barking, playing dogs may disrupt services though.
Basic Bob
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 5:22 p.m.
Dogs smell bad.
djm12652
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 4:40 p.m.
OMG why does everyone have their panties in such a bunch?
a2ex-pat
Tue, Jan 15, 2013 : 2:35 a.m.
@EyeHeartA2...Being a dog owner, how do you see no need for a park? Do large breed dogs not enjoy playing with other canines? Because my large breeds LIVE for it. Even though they get daily walks, nothing makes them happier than running off leash with other canines. Dogs are social animals, and socialization with other dogs is important.
EyeHeartA2
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 6:14 p.m.
I have a dog (a large breed) and see no need for the park.
George K
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 5:33 p.m.
If you owned a dog you would know why. We need sanctioned doggy social areas! The police broke up our last unofficial "weekly dog play day".
Linda Diane Feldt
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 4:38 p.m.
I would hope that those critical of the proposed dog park have visited the existing parks to see how well they work. They are clean, pretty quiet with some clear exceptions, and the dogs and people tend to occupy a pretty small part of the park - especially if there are herding dogs around! Dog owners pay for the privilege of using the park. We pay taxes, and the additional fee to have permission to use the dog parks. If you don't have the special tag and have signed off on the rules, you are not welcome. There is a lot of self-policing. I would walk to this park, and if there are Sunday morning times to avoid using the park for the comfort of the neighbors, I would respect that. If you are worried or confused about how a dog park works, please go out and visit Swift Run. It works. You'll see a lot of happy dogs, learning to be better dogs, and owners exchanging ideas, resources, and just enjoying themselves. It is a great resource - although for many of us it takes nearly an hour to drive there and back. A small local walkable park is a at idea, just as there are convenient tennis courts, swings, slides, ball fields, etc. that I don't use. I live next to a school playground. There is a lot of noise, most of it screaming kids. Not my first choice, but at least they're happy. A dog park is far quieter. I would prefer it. West Park could use some additional noise of people and dogs playing happily.
ArgoC
Tue, Jan 15, 2013 : 5:56 p.m.
Yes! Thank you for sounding like somebody who has experience with dog parks. The two dog parks I go to are amazingly quiet. Confined dogs bark. Playing dogs usually don't. And, about feces ... I wish people would realize that dog owners actually don't want their dogs stepping in feces and bringing it into the house or car. Generally, dog owners at dog parks put a lot of pressure on other dog owners to clean up.
johnls
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 9:35 p.m.
A well-written, reasonable comment ... thank you. Also, am I still at annarbor.com?
ArthGuinness
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 4:31 p.m.
I don't really have an opinion on this particular plan, but some of these arguments are silly. You're only allowed to have a dog if it always stays on your own property? We live in a society. Sometimes we make accommodations for different parts of society. Sometimes streets are closed off for parades or runs, sometimes schools and playgrounds are built for children, sometimes we enforce laws to clear sidewalks of ice so that old people don't fall, etc. And if there are enough dog owners to warrant it, perhaps a dedicated dog park is a good idea. It's better than feces getting spread all over playgrounds.
uabchris
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 7:27 p.m.
Amen!
Robert Granville
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 5:30 p.m.
The attitude you're getting at is divisive and annoying but I don't know what to call it. I feel like it's a product of the current political climate and anti-government attitudes. It's almost as if people simply don't want government to do anything for anyone especially if its not them personally.... and they want the government to do (or not do) those things more effectively with less revenue.
Peter Eckstein
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 4:31 p.m.
Rather than wait a year to see how things work out, why not just keep the place locked on Sundays or on that portion of Sundays when the church is conducting services? That would leave at least six days a week for the dogs and their owners to do their things.
johnls
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 9:32 p.m.
Compromise! That's a novel new idea... I'm a dog owner planning to use the park and think having a couple hours 'off limits' on Sunday for service is a respectful, reasonable compromise.
George K
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 5:30 p.m.
Ya, and we can lock parishoners out of the church on all other 6 days of the week, so they don't accidentally hear any dogs barking. That is a terrible solution. Sunday mornings are my favorite for letting my dogs run! I put up with their church bells, they can put up with my dogs barking.
Themadcatter
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 5:21 p.m.
Very good idea!
kris
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 4:47 p.m.
I think that would be a great compromise.
Halter
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 4:27 p.m.
This is a great location for a dogrun...clearly, the church doesn't really know what a fenced-in dogrun is, nor that there generally IS NOT much noise from dogs in a dogrun-- perhaps he should visit the two we already have and take a look -- they are quiet, safe havens for dogs. Except for, of course, that the city doesn't take care of them and they have big muddy pits in them. Alternately, some would find a church offensive anywhere near their dogs. (just kidding, just trying to cause trouble).
KateT
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 4:27 p.m.
I go to Swift Run with my dog. I like the 2 separate dog areas, the big open spaces, and plenty of parking. The parks around here seem somewhat underused. If facilities are set up so people and animals get outside and get active, so much the better.
Piledriver
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 4:25 p.m.
In Dog We Trust!
Leigh Ann Koepp
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 4:08 p.m.
A parks a park whether there are dogs or kids there is going to be noise...but really...that much more noise? Come on....What is more interesting is usually church's bless things not ridicule them....
Halter
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 4:29 p.m.
I would say that the sound of the service and singing at the church generally makes more noise in the immediate neighborhood than the dogs -- dogs don't bark in dog runs, they have no reason to bark in dog runs. They bark when they are in the house and strangers approach. They don't bark when they are with their buddies outside playing.
alan
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 4:03 p.m.
I used to live next to a church in a residential area. I would rather have a dog park.
Lets Get Real
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 4:01 p.m.
When the hotly contested, multi-year battle over the historic houses on Fifth Ave was concluded, the houses torn down, and the new houseing units built across from Bethlehem UCC - how did they respond? They baked old fashioned German pretzels, took 1/2 dozen to each new apartment as a welcoming gift, and took a proactive approach to dogs and parking. They invited responsible dog owners to use their small, fenced yard to play with their dogs! The congregation welcomed the new neighbors and their furry friends - all of God's children. In exchange they asked for responsible behavior: attend your pet, pick-up after your pet, etc. You will see neighbors of the church playing with their pets, training their pets, socializing their pets, reading/studying while their pets play - even chatting with one another! How novel, in this day of electronic socialization rather than human interaction. Result: a positive, respectiful relationship between neighbors and church - some of them even come to services! Tallk to Pastor Martha Brunnel about the good neighbor policy of her church.
justcurious
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 3:58 p.m.
I usually read all previous comments before posting but I don't have time on this one. I am a true lover of dogs (animals). We have three and have had four in the past. We live in the country with 2/3 of an acre fenced for them. They are good dogs. But if I had a dog in the city I would certainly utilize a dog park. Dogs need to run and play and socialize with other dogs. When the West Park dog park was proposed I commented that it would be too small. I still believe that. Any living thing that is forced to interact in a small space will have some problems. I also know that dogs like to bark and "talk" among themselves. This could be a problem for the church across the street. They have enjoyed a fairly quiet neighborhood for years. I would see a different place for the dog park. Veterans Park would have been great, but no one would give up a ball diamond and I'm not sure there is room anywhere else there.
A2James
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 3:44 p.m.
Normally, I would be against most dog walk proponents as a group. (Yes, I am a dog owner, I have a SMALL breed dog because I have a SMALL house and yard!) But a church might be something more entitled than all dog owners put together! They pay no taxes, and offer minimal to no community services in return (and no, I dont believe letting people pay you money and pray/sing to an imaginary deity is a community service). No matter what happens, there are no winners. But I'd have to side with the dog park proponents on this.
kris
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 4:45 p.m.
Many, many area churches provide meals, other food, diapers and personal care items, cleaning supplies, child activity assistance etc., and to support Alpha House. Without such assistance, I doubt the shelter could continue operating.
Craig Lounsbury
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 4:22 p.m.
I have to side with thinker with respect to Churches and the notion that they " offer minimal to no community services" That is simply not true. Most churches do have a variety of community outreach programs. The more money the congregation donates the more and bigger the programs. Sure there are exceptions but I would suggest most churches offer as much community service as they can afford. Noting they have overhead that must be met to keep afloat.
thinker
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 3:56 p.m.
Churches provide many community services, especially to the poor and homeless! Oor whole social system to care for the unfortunate began in our churches. Read your history.
DennisP
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 3:43 p.m.
Perhaps the Baptist Church could contact its Methodist brethren in Pinckney at the Arise Church where the church maintains a dog park on its own grounds. Admittedly, Pinckney is a rural area, but the dog park is right there on the grounds near the church. See: http://www.arisechurch.org/DogPark.php The Church states its purpose: "We believe that God created people to be in community, and that we are at our best when we're in relationship to one another. Therefore, we provide this dog park not only as a fun safe place where dogs can get good exercise, but our greatest hope is that dog owners will make friends here and enjoy great conversations together." Maybe its time to take a lemon and make lemonade out of it. Look for the benefit of such a place nearby and how it fits in well with the teachings of the Christian faith just as the Arise Church does. We are all stewards for all of God's creations including all those marvelous animals we are blessed with as pets and service animals. So too, the City--out of respect for the church--can consider having Sunday hours that respect the times of services at the Church.
uabchris
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 7:23 p.m.
Can I get an A-MEN?!
Don Weatherup
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 4:35 p.m.
Dennis: Thank you for mentioning the Arise Church Community Dog Park. Our park has been open 2 years and it has been a big blessing. It has allowed us to meet so many wonderful people. We simply would respectfully disagree with the opinion of those at this Baptist Church. Those who use our Dog Park are respectful, and clean up after their dogs. Since I personally live in the house closest to the Arise Church Community Dog Park, I can attest that the noise level is minimal. Yes, having a dog park at a church is unusual. We only know of 3 in the entire United States. But, by the grace of God, nearly 20 percent of those who worship at Arise Church on Sunday morning, their first point of contact with the church was the dog park. Two years ago we began holding DOGFEST, a annual gathering of dog lovers and their dogs. It has been simply amazing. 800 plus people attended last year. This year's DOGFEST will be Saturday, September 14th. In other words, God is using the Dog Park to reach people. What else can I say, except - thank you Lord!
Craig Lounsbury
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 4:16 p.m.
I am not familiar with that Church but it should be noted the park seems to be closed during services. And its further worth noting a Church with a dog park is certainly not the norm.
justcurious
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 4 p.m.
I just saw your link. Thank you!
Ghost of Tom Joad
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 3:42 p.m.
I find the noisy church bells that they ring on Sunday morning offensive. I also find it offensive that we change around our parking laws every Sunday/holiday just to accommodate these religious people offensive.
TrappedinMI
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 5:01 p.m.
The replies here gave me quite the chuckle. Thank you, I needed to laugh! I don't know about the rest of what you (Ghost) said, but the church bells ringing by me kind of bother me too! I'm so embarrassed to say that! I'm a Christian too but the Catholic church by me rings those bells way too long before services. Perhaps if they would just ring them for a shorter period. :/ It's not like we don't have a million devices telling us what time it is, right?! Oh well!
StopCrying
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 4:06 p.m.
< Offended
zanzerbar
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 3:45 p.m.
I find it offensive that you find it offensive.......so there.
DAN
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 3:37 p.m.
Don't the area church members have dogs?
Chimay
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 4:35 p.m.
They go to church to get away from their dogs for a couple hours.
Halter
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 4:32 p.m.
I believe this particular church does not draw its members from the immediate neighborhood. In fact, I wonder how many are even Ann Arbor residents. Nonetheless, apparently they don't know much about dogs.
StopCrying
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 4:06 p.m.
Dan, please see my above post about my support group.
zanzerbar
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 3:35 p.m.
The open area on the hill behind the band shell, behind the row of houses on seventh is a area that is not used often.It is much larger than the postage sized ( relative to the size of the park) area across from the church for dogs to actually run. You simply be sure your dog is leashed until you reach the area. Fence it off, problem solved. Thank You.
F. Andy Seidl
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 3:30 p.m.
In my perfect world, churches would pay taxes and dog owners alone would pay for their dogs' needs.
F. Andy Seidl
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 7:19 p.m.
Robert, that would be a different world and the suggestion really misses my point, which is: Just as I don't expect tax exemptions for my evidence-based beliefs, I would prefer other not have tax exemptions for their faith-based beliefs. Similarly, just as I fully pay for my own personal, elective pursuits--without sharing the burden with other tax payers (as Woman from Ypsilanti would have)--I would prefer others do to so, as well.
Woman in Ypsilanti
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 6:29 p.m.
Dog owners do pay for their dog's needs. One way they do this is by paying taxes for dog parks.
Robert Granville
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 5:34 p.m.
You can create that world by removing yourself from society entirely and creating your own in the woods. You'd only pay for the goods and services you use and you would not be beholden to anyone.
bunnyabbot
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 3:28 p.m.
The city should consider putting in the dog park at either the Abbot, Wines or Forsythe properties, all which are large enough to not disrupt school.
Basic Bob
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 5:16 p.m.
The city should first consider buying and maintaining those properties before they "improve" them.
Chester Drawers
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 5:11 p.m.
The city does not own the property on which these schools sit; the Ann Arbor Public Schools district does.
thecompound
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 3:26 p.m.
It's odd. I mapquested the City Council folks addresses listed on the government page, seems they all live near a park or nature area, but not a one near West Park. Talk about NIMBY.
StopCrying
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 4:04 p.m.
Yes I was thinking the same thing, this definitely appeared to me at first to be a conspiracy put forth by the council folks in order to run the Baptist Church out of town. However, I have done my own sleuthing and have discovered that the council are merely pawns in the hands of the greater UofM. The university has plans to purchase this church immediately as soon as it goes up for sale (after being run out of town by dog feces). But wait, it doesn't stop there...from what I can gather it also appears that a source (to be named later) from within our very city council actually hates dogs and tipped off the Reverend to the sinister plot created by UofM. Hence today we are left with the mudslinging from one side as they fight to maintain their pulpit of profit, please stay tuned as this story develops it will become a scandal of monument proportions.
bunnyabbot
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 3:25 p.m.
I find it some what strange the pastor uses such a heated work as "offensive" in regard to any kind of park. Obviously a ploy to make this as divisive as possible. If we are throwing out the word "offensive" so easily these days I will bring up my own in regards to this church. I find it offensive that their congregation spills out of their parking lot and uses the on street parking, they also use the PARK lot, so I doubt dog park visitors would be able to get in their. If they are bursting at the seams (and good for them!) perhaps it's time to have a shuttle service or look for more room to grow. I find their building at the corner of Chapin and Miller offensive because it looks sad and under used and not such a good choice of space. As for the children that "are afraid of dogs" they will be in a fenced in area, and perhaps the children will be less afraid of dogs by seeing them on a regular basis through the fence.
Craig Lounsbury
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 3:16 p.m.
So if I have my numbers correct the city wants to add a dog park to bring the number to 3. they also want (or is it need?) to close 2 fire stations to bring the number to 3. 3 fire stations, 3 dog parks. Makes sense to me.
jcj
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 10:58 p.m.
clown They may not cost the same. But an honest evaluation will conclude that the greater (or only) good would be done with the fire station!
Craig Lounsbury
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 7:29 p.m.
clownfish, we both know the answer to that. We also know one is a core city service and the other is a frill.
clownfish
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 7:06 p.m.
Cost analysis for dog parks and fire stations? Do they really cost the same to operate?
Craig Lounsbury
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 5:48 p.m.
perhaps. I just find the priories a bit out of whack. I have 2 dogs at home, a home in the city that could potentially catch on fire. So i am an Ann Arbor resident,, a dog owner, and a home owner. You might say I have skin in the game. I find it troubling that our city Government seems to embrace those numbers I struggle with.
Robert Granville
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 5:31 p.m.
Sometimes when you simplify an argument too much, you say absolutely nothing of value.
Craig Lounsbury
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 4:31 p.m.
In the interest of clarification my "3 fire stations, 3 dog parks. Makes sense to me" comment is intended as sarcasm.
Nicole Streeter
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 3:15 p.m.
You know, the fact that this even has to be a discussion.. First off, Dog parks are a great addition to any city. I understand the Church's concerns, but I also think that dog owners need to be responsible for their dog and if their dog is aggressive in ANY way towards other animals or people, they should NOT be going to a public, let alone off leash park. If they choose to still go ( because of course their are those who just don't care about others), and their dog creates a safety issue, then they should be reported, and banned from the park. The park will be fenced, and if the parishioners are afraid of dogs, then DON"T GO UP TO THE FENCE! The lot the park is going in is not owned by the church, therefore they can't dictate who or what goes there.. How many days a week is the church occupied that it's going to be a noise issue? I mean seriously. What do they think is going to happen, a dog parade while church is in session? Come on..
jcj
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 10:54 p.m.
Nicole "The lot the park is going in is not owned by the church, therefore they can't dictate who or what goes there." Come on. There are sooo many things in this town dictated by a few that that argument does not hold up!
thinker
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 3:08 p.m.
Dogs don't pay taxes--why do we treat them better than people?
Middle America
Tue, Jan 15, 2013 : 6:29 a.m.
Dogs don't demand special treatment while they ritualistically chant to their magical space wizard.
jcj
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 10:52 p.m.
Elaine You say "Dog owners pay taxes" And so do the church goers!
Laurie
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 4:57 p.m.
"Thinker", I don't see where he said he would ONLY use this pen and never walk their dog. The "pens", dog parks, are used so dogs can play TOGETHER, not in place of walking your dog. And I agree that giving dogs a place to play together while being kept in a fenced in area does not equate to "treating them better than people"
Halter
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 4:34 p.m.
Hmm, methinks "thinker" is not a dog owner or they would know you always treat dogs better than people.
thinker
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 3:53 p.m.
@A2Onward-if you only have a pen for your dog to run in, and don't take them for long walks, maybe you shouldn't have a dog!
Elaine F. Owsley
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 3:46 p.m.
Dog owners pay taxes, and license fees, and vet fees to keep their dogs eligible for licenses - and they probably even go to church - although maybe not the one across the street.
bunnyabbot
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 3:31 p.m.
a lot of people don't pay taxes either so what is your point?
StopCrying
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 3:14 p.m.
lol the park that this entire thing is going to be built in was designed for people. The dog park is also for the owners of the dogs. Which as far as I know are also people.
A2Onward
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 3:12 p.m.
Really? A pen to let them run around in once in a while. That's your idea of treating them better than people?
Dog Guy
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 3:01 p.m.
My analysis used the r-word and was deleted. I leave this matter to pastors of other churches in this city of big trees.
PineyWoodsGuy
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 2:55 p.m.
I give credit to the pastor for speaking-up about the proposed dog park. It takes courage to make those comments in Ann Arbor where dogs are sacred animals ("Dog" spelled backwards = "God"). India has sacred cows. We have sacred dogs.
A2BAC
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 2:36 p.m.
If as an agnostic dog lover I can "put up with" the tax exempt church then... The dog park should be adequately maintained of course as would any property.
Nicholas Urfe
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 2:26 p.m.
In my experience in other cities, dog parks always smell strongly of dog urine and feces - even beyond the park. And my nose is stuffed up much of time, so I'm not nearly as sensitive as some. There should be a large "DMZ" around the dog park that is considered unusable. Unfortunately, that will cut into the park intended for taxpayer use. I actually enjoy going to a dog park just to watch the dogs play. It's funny to watch a little yippie dog chase a giant dog. But the real world problems of dog parks must be solved.
Ann English
Tue, Jan 15, 2013 : 12:17 a.m.
If the church members were thinking strictly about corgis in the park, they should just come out and say so. They're little yippie dogs. When I had a dog half terrier, he never barked when playing with either of two German Shepherds. You can't tell which Labrador mixes will bark when playing and which ones will not. But I know, dogs are full of energy and parks are great places to expend that energy. Getting acquainted with each other is a sort of "break" in the action.
Frank
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 2:20 p.m.
yea, like the city would purposefully go out and offend a religious congregation. sounds like a case of NIMBY
A2Onward
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 2:20 p.m.
I'll bet the dog park sees more use than the church.
Brad
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 2:17 p.m.
"As for the noise and so forth, PAC's experience with dog parks is that they are not particularly disruptive " That probably has something to do with the fact that the current parks are both pretty out of the way, so it's a totally invalid comparison. Pretty hard to "disrupt" a landfill that's not even inside the city limits. And not at all like a little dog parklet sandwiched in the middle of a neighborhood on a narrow street.
Elaine F. Owsley
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 2:12 p.m.
Shame on them. They should speak to the pastor of the church in Pinckney that has a dog park right on their property. Remember, God made all creatures, not just the two legged kind.
StopCrying
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 2:05 p.m.
This Baptist church HATES DOGS! I am asking all members of this church that are dog owners to boycott and join my group. N.H.B.C.H.A.A.T.F.M.T.P (New Hope Baptist Church Hates Animals And The Fecal Matter They Produce) I plan to spread my word on Sundays and Wednesdays, we will gather on the baseball diamond at 10am and 5pm. Please bring 10% of your earnings and some craft materials to make our boycott signs with. Thanks!
jcj
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 10:46 p.m.
Count me in with the church goers!
Halter
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 4:37 p.m.
GeorgeK, I am with you on that -- but the atheist part of me has to think that it would ultimately fall on deaf ears, and hence, not really resolve the dissonance.
George K
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 3:36 p.m.
I don't get why the church even bothers complaining to the city of Ann Arbor on this. They talk directly to God; if they get him on their side then there's no more dispute! If they pit their prayer power against the prayers of all those who want a dog park, we will see who God loves more.
OLDTIMER3
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 2:04 p.m.
@susanrk ,Really a shop vac in the park to pickup urine? How are you going to get it out of the ground.Not only that but are you going to carry it right around behind your dog?
Jud Branam
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 1:53 p.m.
Don't forget the basketball court, and the Project Grow gardens. Basically every active use of the park is all stacked on top of each other. I agree that one or more of these uses should move to the west. My suggestion would be to use this Chapin Street lot for Project Grow -- it had a house on it for a century or so and has water lines -- and to create the dog park on some of the large open area off 7th. That would provide a less controversial use for the city's quarter-million dollar vacant lot and restore the ease of walking down the Miller Street steps and going downtown, as Water Hill residents did for years before all these "improvements" began.
Chimay
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 4:31 p.m.
I still say put the dog park where the Near North project was supposed to be.
Jud Branam
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 4:08 p.m.
Or Gott's Addition, per our deed. Hear ya though, that name is pretty new.
Brad
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 2:18 p.m.
Actually if residents have been doing it for years they would have been Spring Hill residents.
A24eva
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 1:52 p.m.
What about Wheeler Park (AKA 'Dealer Park')? West Park is problematic for many of the reasons mentioned above. The only thing I have ever seen Wheeler utilized for is, vagrancy, public intoxication, and open-carry barbecues.
Chimay
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 4:30 p.m.
I take my kids to that park. They have the coolest construction toys in the sandbox. The folks that hang out there have never once bothered us, unlike the folks at the plaza at Liberty and Division.
clownfish
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 1:41 p.m.
Seems like the neighborhood has put up with church services for years. Do they have a church bell? Loud singing early Sunday morning, parking issues caused by congregation etc. Are dogs in a park any louder than children playing on a "jungle gym" or an adult softball game (of course nobody ever drinks alcohol at these games!) My guess is it will not have an adverse affect the one or so hours the church is actually in service each week. Worst case: they can close the windows on that side of the church for an hour. If they want a real say in how government runs, pony up some property taxes like the people asking for a dog park.
jcj
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 10:44 p.m.
clownfish "Seems like the neighborhood has put up with church services for years" Seems like you are speaking to something you don't know about. How many churches have a church bell? Not many anymore! Dogs certainly ARE louder than children playing on a jungle gym! I can hear dogs narking all over the neighborhood I NEVER hear kids playing. Don't think those church goers pay taxes? Do you feel the same way about the U of M not paying taxes?
Goober
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 2 p.m.
I believe they are afraid that a wild dog dropping might attack someone trying to go to their house of worship. I am shocked at the AA commenters that defend humans defacing public structures, yet when the city wishes to provide space for pet owners - the venom flies. Go figure!
Erin
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 1:34 p.m.
If the leaders of the church are so concerned about safety then maybe they should give a memo to the members of the congregation about the speed limit on Chapin St, a street with a park and residents with young children.. Sunday mornings make Chapin St. a drag strip. Last time I checked "God" didn't care if you were on time, just that you showed up. Safely.
conundrummy
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 1:33 p.m.
I like the idea of pay to play. Yearly fee for dog park usage.
conundrummy
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 10:55 p.m.
I can't think of any part of our park system that is designated for a particular group or activity, who would use it in such a manner, and leave it uninhabitable for any other activity. I really can't imagine a game of kick ball would be sanitary after the dogs have left (even after the bulk of "solid" poops are picked up). Most of the facilities and areas in Ann Arbor parks have more than one intended and possible use and are very accessible and available to most. Doesn't it seem fair to keep these areas available to as many people as possible?? Though there are fees attached to dog licenses, I can't imagine they cover the true economic costs in dollars let alone the loss of use for others. This is about equity and fair use.
uabchris
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 7:01 p.m.
We already pay...its called taxes...1/3 of my mortgage payment...
Woman in Ypsilanti
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 6:24 p.m.
Why should dog owners have to "pay to play" when users of the basketball courts or children's playgrounds do not? Are dog owners somehow less important. If there is a reason why such parks are more expensive, then I am ok with it (that's the reason the pools charge admission) but otherwise I am not.
Jessica Webster
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 5:26 p.m.
I've been stopped at Swift Run and had my dog's dog park tag checked a couple of times. They aren't there every day, but they do send someone out to to regular checks.
George K
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 3:30 p.m.
How does one enforce this? The same as most things, through the honor system. Unless you propose starting a new agency to police the parks, and flying drones overhead to keep an eye out. But that money is better spent on public art, so we'll probably stick with the honor system.
thecompound
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 3:10 p.m.
Just curious as I am not familiar, how does one enforce dog park usage and make sure only those who pay the fee use it?
craigjjs
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 2:08 p.m.
There already is a yearly fee for dog park usage. In addition, there are dog licenses that must be paid for.
Lolly
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 1:47 p.m.
That is the current system.
SonnyDog09
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 1:23 p.m.
More NIMBYism in a2. I'm not sure why this is news.
clownfish
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 1:42 p.m.
Because it effects many people in the area?
conundrummy
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 1:35 p.m.
That us the state of our local news. Keep your eye out when things get slow they love to do these "Top 5 ....... In Ann Arbor" as news reports.
HONDO
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 1:12 p.m.
Does the church pay any city taxes? If not then what ultimate say does a place that should welcome all kinds have?....
mikeh
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 5:52 p.m.
@ Susan: Just imagine how upset I am as a single, childless homeowner with all of the taxes I pay for silly public schooling! (sarcasm)
HONDO
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 4:05 p.m.
Soo your point is Susan you and your friend dont have dogs that would enjoy this dog park? So why do you comment then and about your ferrets? Are they not indoor pets? Would you like to bring them to rough house with the dogs? Would your " petless" friend be at peace that there could be less poop on or around sidewalks? Ferrets?! please
craigjjs
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 2:07 p.m.
Susan - dog owners pay for dog licenses and permits to use the city dog parks.
Goober
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 2:03 p.m.
To Susan - You are welcome to bring your ferrets to roam the new dog park. :)
SusanRk
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 1:31 p.m.
Do dog owners pay extra taxes for use of city property designated for their own pleasure. What about my needs, I have 6 ferrets that need a place to rome. Come on now, where is the equity in all this. I know my petless friends won't appreciate this. I would be willing to pay a license fee to use a specialized piece of public property.
Jay Thomas
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 1:08 p.m.
Minute I saw the headline I knew which church it was. Some people are offended at everything.
Billy
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 1:04 p.m.
Considering that the actual complaint itself has little to no merit (OMG DOG PARKS ARE LOUD)....it sounds like someone is stomping their feet and whining for the sake of stomping their feet and whining... PLEASE put that dog park there.....nothing delights me more than watching people manifest their own aggravation.
jcj
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 10:35 p.m.
Doesn't take much to entertain some people!
thinker
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 1:02 p.m.
I agree with the Reverend and the Trustee. And where are these dog owners going to park down there? Also, remember the YMCA is close, and parking is also a problem there. All in all, a safety hazard and a parking nightmare. And disruptive to the church and all its activities.
uabchris
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 6:58 p.m.
I think I will walk, since i don't DRIVE my dog around for exercise...com no people, geez!
Woman in Ypsilanti
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 6:22 p.m.
People will park on the public street just like they are entitled to. Or they will walk to the park. Why does the church feel they are more entitled to on street parking than anyone else?
Laurie
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 4:26 p.m.
Maybe there shouldn't be a church there what with all of the people that drive to church.
George K
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 3:26 p.m.
I agree with DeeDee, especially because the park is downtown. I have to drive across the city to get to either of the current dog parks. If it was downtown I would definitely walk there.
Rob
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 3:16 p.m.
Also: POOP! BAD! STINKY! POOOOOOP!
DeeDee
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 2:26 p.m.
Its a densely populated area. Maybe the people and the dogs will WALK there! That is that form of exercise that all mammals engage in, where you put your feet on the ground and move them alternately in the direction in which you wish to travel. No cars needed, and it makes dogs happy! I expect parking will be a minimal issue....
YpsiVeteran
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 1:55 p.m.
"Parking nightmare" is a prerequisite to any project approval in Ann Arbor. The project must worsen existing parking problems or create new ones in order to meet the regulations.
George K
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 1:29 p.m.
Why care what the church thinks anyways? They're not paying taxes.
Arboriginal
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 12:56 p.m.
Burns Park. Now there is a good spot for a dog park!
laura wolf
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 10:05 p.m.
some people do let their dogs run there but you know they voted against a vegetable garden area a while ago so i really doubt a dog area would fly.
Jessica Webster
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 5:27 p.m.
I'd love a dog park there!
Brad
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 4:15 p.m.
He would tell you with particularity why it isn't a good spot.
thecompound
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 3:18 p.m.
According to Taylor's bio, he lives in the Burns Park neighborhood. Ask him why it's not a good spot.
Barb
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 2:42 p.m.
Don't hold yer breath... Burns Park folks spend a lot of money keeping their 'hood exclusive.
SemperFi
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 12:56 p.m.
Did you hear the one about the dyslexic, agnostic insomniac? He laid awake at night and wondered if there was a Dog!
kris
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 12:52 p.m.
Sounds like the church folks have some valid concerns. Dog parks are a nice idea, but who really wants one near them?
kris
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 6:58 p.m.
@Robert: rather a snotty comment of yours, but yes I have"bothered" to read the responses. I also have noticed the 17 upvotes on my comment. I am a dog owner....of a Vizla...who happens to need a lot of exercise. I would utilize the dog park but I understand that not everybody loves dogs. There are a lot of irresponsible dog owners. I live on a corner lot in my sidewalk-less neighborhood and several dog owners see no problem with letting their dog poop on my lawn and leaving it there. The problem is worse when it snows.
Robert Granville
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 5:25 p.m.
I too would rather live right next door to a dog park than a church. I wonder if kris bothered to come back and read the replies to his/her post.
StopCrying
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 2:29 p.m.
Yep I would rather have a dog park then a church next to me. Far less noisy, less traffic and I don't have to watch my language.
craigjjs
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 2:04 p.m.
Churches are a nice idea, but who really wants one near them. Bells ringing, traffic, noise on Sunday mornings, that noisy apocolypse.
George K
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 1 p.m.
I wouldn't mind living next to a dog park. It's churches that bug me...
Liz
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 12:48 p.m.
Noisy, irritating, disruptive.. these are all words that could be used to describe a dog park (and I have a dog, so I am in favor) but offensive? I have failed to see how that adjective fits...
music to my ear
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 12:46 p.m.
the church should lighten up dont "all dogs go to heaven" but yes it needs an out of the way area. there is still lots of other areas non populated.just tell dog owners park opens at 1 o clock sunday But truly dog poo does smell .and I am sure all will not get picked up.
SusanRk
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 12:46 p.m.
I want a place to take my pet ferret. Will the city please cut out a section of a park for this. We have been wanting one of these for years. We would be more than happy to take this west park spot. Ferrets are small, don't leave behind large fecal matter, and are not loud. I apologize to the other residents of Ann Arbor for having to pay for this but I desperately need this.
Woman in Ypsilanti
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 6:20 p.m.
That would make sense if there are a sufficient numbers of ferret owners who would use a ferret park. There are a lot of dog owners who would use a dog park just like there are lot of children who want to use the playground and a lot of people who like to play tennis or swim or skateboard so it makes sense to build areas for those activities. Park use should be determined by the demand for the use and there is a great demand for a dog park. Not so much for a ferret park I don't think but if I am wrong and there is a great demand for a ferret park, then there is no reason why I should oppose it.
Nunya
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 4:23 p.m.
Talk about stench. Ferret urine is the most vile substance on earth.
StopCrying
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 1:58 p.m.
Well as long as the ferrets will fight then I have no problem with this park being created.
SusanRk
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 1:14 p.m.
I know that. Each one would get its own fenced area.
George K
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 12:58 p.m.
Funny, except ferrets would maul each other if you made a park for them. I think nobody would bring a ferret to another park full of other ferrets. They're mostly solitary, no?
Mark
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 12:42 p.m.
Don't they know that dog is god spelled backwards?
Doug
Tue, Jan 15, 2013 : 12:11 a.m.
Brilliant! You can spell!
music to my ear
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 5:32 p.m.
aaaha susan you so funny
Homeland Conspiracy
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 1:11 p.m.
That's part of the problem. A lot of people think their dogs are Gods
SusanRk
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 12:50 p.m.
Do they know that poop is Spelled the same both ways. Poop is poop. S
Craig Lounsbury
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 12:41 p.m.
The city is going to put up a fence along a sidewalk? I guess they don't have to follow their fence rules they impose on their serfs..errr..... citizens.
Yael Ganet
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 2:18 p.m.
Right on!
Craig Lounsbury
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 1:15 p.m.
maybe I need to correct myself. Looking at the current fence laws it seems a front yard fence is feasible.
Ignatz
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 12:38 p.m.
So much for the all of god's creatures thing.
Jake C
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 8:16 p.m.
OF all the things to complain about "tax dollars" going towards, this has to be one of the things to worry about the least. What does this amount of fencing cost, a few thousand dollars to install, one time? And once installed, it needs maybe $5 or $10 worth of doggie disposal bags per month, plus a visit once a week or two to pick up the waste? The city probably spends that much on an annual basis for maintaining a single bathroom in City Hall...
a2citizen
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 2:12 p.m.
Tad bit different George...unless, of course, you have sired a litter of puppies.
mermaid72
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 2 p.m.
Obviously the folks who replied to your comment missed your point! Tax dollars? Hobbies? I agree with you, this "Christian" church is not acting very Christ-like, but that happens often, doesn't it?
EyeHeartA2
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 1:39 p.m.
If Susan won't, I will. Dogs are not kids. I'm surprised somebody has to point that out.
George K
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 1:27 p.m.
Susan, are you saying owning a dog is a hobby? Is that a similar hobby to owning a child?
SusanRk
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 1:12 p.m.
So much for the tax dollars going towards this hobby.
Dcam
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 12:29 p.m.
It's odd, but near Pinckney there's a church that not only approves of dog parks but set aside adjacent land to build one. The public is invited but they request that owners pick up the dog's gifts to the park.
Dcam
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 4:40 p.m.
The name just came to me. The church is called Arise.
Dcam
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 4:28 p.m.
It's on Dexter-Pinckney Road, just south of the High School and St. Mary's Catholic Church. It's a Methodist congregation but I don't recall the name of the church offhand.
justcurious
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 3:52 p.m.
Dcam, I never knew this. Where is it?
StopCrying
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 1:57 p.m.
lol Homeland you are a bit heated on this topic here, dogs urinate and poo EVERYWHERE as of now..at least with a park more of it will be contained.Unless you plan on walking through the gated dog park you probably won't have any more of a problem with avoid fecal matter than you already do.
Goober
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 1:56 p.m.
If you wish to know how to pick up urine, as any of those who use the parking structure stair wells. I am shocked that AA residents object to the use of public land for the pleasure of those of us that own pets, yet do nothing about humans that deface public structures. Go figure!
SusanRk
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 1:11 p.m.
With a wet and dry shop vac! Duhhhhha!!
Homeland Conspiracy
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 12:36 p.m.
How do you pick up urine?
George K
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 12:26 p.m.
There used to be an unofficial gathering of dog owners at Slaughson Middle School, until one day the police showed up and broke everybody up like they are a bunch of vandals. If you don't give dogs a park, then the owners will make a park anywhere. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they spontaneously made an unofficial "dog run" right on the church's front lawn. Let's hope they bring their poo bags! Dogs gotta play somewhere. A big private yard only helps if your dog is a loner, but for social dogs, they need a playground to meet and greet other dogs. The problem is where to put it, not IF we should have one at all.
thecompound
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 3:04 p.m.
unofficial or illegal? bet none of your kids have ever gotten dog poop on them while attending slauson.
Yael Ganet
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 2:18 p.m.
dog owners would benefit from forming an NPO to meet their dogs' exercise needs and associated responsibilities.
a2citizen
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 2:09 p.m.
"...if they spontaneously made an unofficial "dog run" right on the church's front lawn..." Impressive taunt from a tough guy.
Homeland Conspiracy
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 12:38 p.m.
So true
George K
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 12:36 p.m.
Homeland Conspiracy, Let's worry about dog owners cleaning up their poo at all, then worry about being biodegradable.
Homeland Conspiracy
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 12:34 p.m.
I hope that the "poop bags" are biodegradable plastic poop bags.
conundrummy
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 12:15 p.m.
This will hopefully be good news for Bird Hills park where every weekend there are people who let there dogs rome without a leash every weekend. It has gotten to be such a problem that friends o ours are afraid to take their kids there because of safety. These dog owners should really abide by the park rules. It's just a shame that families with children can't feel save in our city parks.
loran
Mon, Mar 11, 2013 : 5:10 p.m.
Agree. My 4 years now refuses to go there now. 90% of the dogs are off leash. Last month I was threatened by a young lady because I used a stick to keep her great dane and 2 other large dogs away from me (there were circling me, 3-6 feet away from me!!!). The situation there is critical. There is absolutely no point in planning for a dog park if leash laws are not enforced in the rest of the city. I would encourage anyone who has a problem with an off leash dog in bird hills to call 911.
Woman in Ypsilanti
Tue, Jan 15, 2013 : 10 p.m.
FWIW, I stopped allowing my dogs to play off leash at local parks after Swift Run opened. I can't be the only one. More dog parks might not eliminate such behavior but it will reduce it. If anything, you should work to make the dog parks free in order to encourage more people to use them.
sun runner
Tue, Jan 15, 2013 : 1:51 p.m.
"Unleashed dogs harm flora and fauna, frighten and threaten to knock over small children and the elderly, and put responsible dog owners at risk when some strange dog of unknown temperament charges up to their legally leashed dog." The accompanying comment from the owner of the unleashed dog is often "Oh, he's friendly!" Experience has taught me that the unleashed "friendly" dog is often anything but. Consequently my default stance is to prepare to be jumped on or snapped at.
hjocque
Tue, Jan 15, 2013 : 2:18 a.m.
I remember the "all dogs must be on leash" signs would REGULARLY be vandalized at Eberwhite Woods. Not sure if this still occurs, but I remember that spray paint, dents, and removal of the leash law statements occurred at multiple entrances. The vandals clearly directed their crimes at the leash law portion of the signs. It was always obvious the difference between someone tagging the sign (the whole sign would be tagged with spray paint, it looked obviously like graffiti) and what I presume was an angry dog owner trying to "eradicate" the law (only the leash law portion damaged while the rest was untouched). Unleashed dogs harm flora and fauna, frighten and threaten to knock over small children and the elderly, and put responsible dog owners at risk when some strange dog of unknown temperament charges up to their legally leashed dog.
jen777
Tue, Jan 15, 2013 : 2:16 a.m.
people also let dogs run off leash in west park which is a problem for me when i am walking my dogs on leash. this will not solve the bird hill problem
aanative
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 7:28 p.m.
Bird Hills, Eberwhite Woods, Slausen, Virginia Park - unleashed dogs are often encountered at these park properties. I've taken to carrying pepper spray just in case some Fido comes at me. I wish dog owners would speak up to other dog owners and encourage them to keep their pups leashed and UNDER CONTROL so the rest of us don't have to wonder if we are going to be jumped on or bitten. That's not being anti-dog, it's being courteous of one another.
SusanRk
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 6:26 p.m.
I have shielded my children several times from dogs that were much bigger than them at Bird Hills park. It was a bit scary and I really wanted to say something but my kids are too young for the words I wanted to use. Has this been problems in other parks around Ann Arbor?? Does anyone know of any good parks like bird hills that haven't been taken over by unleashed dogs?? I would love to hear if them!! Good luck on the dog park-- hopefully all of this will address the issue of unleashed dogs and get parks back to their intended use. Cheers.
JB SHOOTER
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 5:10 p.m.
It would be nice if Bird Hills were a nature preserve = no dogs. There are no birds or much of any other wildlife there except for the occasional deer due to the large number of dogs in the park daily.
Ryan J. Stanton
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 3:44 p.m.
I've noticed the unleashed dogs running around Bird Hills, too, and could see how it might make some nervous. Without knowing the temperament of the dog, there's really no way of knowing whether that big huge dog running at you is going to be nice. There are signs that instruct owners to keep their dogs on leashes. I'll see if the city has any plans to enforce the rule anytime soon.
a2migrl
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 2:50 p.m.
@Rob, please don't get the impression that having a dog park will stop the entitled dogs of this city to actually be put on a leash. They as well as their owners are above any leash law. All we can hope for is that they clean up after their pets. I don't own a dog, I don't think I have a yard large enough for one.
Rob
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 1:49 p.m.
An unsupervised pitbull just ran through our yard near there yesterday as I chopped fire wood. My wife has dogs run straight toward her and my kids while walking on the trails almost every time. The owners usually waltz around the corner leash in hand and offer a paltry apology. Fortunately they have not been bitten, and only have been jumped on several times. Ann Arbor does need a dog park, otherwise people will continue to walk their dogs without leashes.
EyeHeartA2
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 1:37 p.m.
Don't count on it. This is more likely to morph into a demand to carve out a portion of Bird Park. Don't forget, this grew out of the "right" that dog owner had to walk to a dog park, otherwise the other two would have been fine.
fjord
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 12:09 p.m.
Why should the city listen to an entity that doesn't pay taxes?
Craig Lounsbury
Tue, Jan 15, 2013 : 12:21 a.m.
johnnya, do you realize a pastor in most cases is an employee not a business owner? His employer is the congregation. With all due respect to your Meijer/ church comparison its a wee bit more complicated what with the 1st amendment and all. In any case my only argument is that the folks in the church are tax payers and as such have as much right to express their concerns to city officials as any other tax payer. Are you suggesting an active christian has no right to address local Government? If so we disagree. If you think a tax paying Christian has the same free speech rights with respect to city hall as a dog owning non-christian then we are on the same page.
Doug
Tue, Jan 15, 2013 : 12:10 a.m.
Ann Arbor sure listens to the freeloaders that want free stuff!
johnnya2
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 11:09 p.m.
Craig, It is ridiculous to compare church members to anything other that people going to a PLACE OF BUSINESS. They buy their groceries at Meijer and try to buy salvation at the church. One of those businesses pays taxes, one does not. If you build a dog park next to Meijer, you do not spend all day asking the customers of Meijer how they feel about the dog park, you might ask Meijer. If the pastor believes his business will be hurt by a dog park, maybe it is time he put together a better business model.
Craig Lounsbury
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 4:28 p.m.
nunya, I have no problem with that. I agree that the say should be confined to Ann Arbor residents. I have no clue how far away the church members live. For you to suggest most don't live in the city I assume you have some "inside information" about the congregation. May i ask where your information comes from? Are you or were you a member?
Nunya
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 4:20 p.m.
Craig they can have a say if they live in Ann Arbor. I bet most dont
Yael Ganet
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 2:14 p.m.
omg
Craig Lounsbury
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 2:10 p.m.
So the tax paying members of a church have no right to input on what happens across the street from their structure because the don't live at the structure? Do the dog owners who also don't live across the street have any input? I fail to see the logic. maybe the only people who get input are the 3-4-5 houses on that section of Chapin. And then only those who can prove they paid property taxes or rent.
Craig Lounsbury
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 2:01 p.m.
HB11, How does that validate his point and invalidate mine?
craigjjs
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 1:59 p.m.
Bob - Dog owners pay taxes. Parents pay taxes. They are entitled to public services for their dogs and children, respectively. Craig - it is not the member's property location that is question, it is the church's property. If we make all organizations entitled to public services and preferences because they have tax-paying members, the entity services will soon outweigh those of the tax payers.
fjord
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 1:58 p.m.
@Basic Bob: The city listens too much to the university as it is. @Craig: The church members don't live in the church, so I don't think you have a point.
HB11
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 1:55 p.m.
Craig, the same could be said about any tax-exempt entity. Fjord has a valid point.
Craig Lounsbury
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 12:37 p.m.
The church itself doesn't pay property taxes. The members of the church pay taxes, all sorts of taxes. They pay incomes taxes, property taxes sales taxes, name a tax and some members of the Church pay it.
Basic Bob
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 12:28 p.m.
Such as the University of Michigan? College students? Poor folks? Visitors? How about dogs? They pay zero taxes.
Dr. Fate
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 12:09 p.m.
The pastor mispronounced "hilarious" as "ludicrous." /whine whine whine
thehawk
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 11:57 a.m.
It's *offensive*? Oh, please.
TrappedinMI
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 4:44 p.m.
Homeland: People clean up after their dogs at dog parks. You seriously don't own a dog or like them, which is absolutely fine. The smell is a nonissue for folks that don't own dogs. I repeat, nonissue. Noise from playing, barking dogs could disrupt services though.
Homeland Conspiracy
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 12:28 p.m.
If you don't think that having a dog toilet a cross the street from you is not offensive, then turn your front or back yard into a "dog park" And remember it won't be 1 or 2 dogs doing there business in your new "dog part" it will be 100's of dogs.
conundrummy
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 12:19 p.m.
What was offensive was 3 very large piles of dog poop along the trails in Dicken Woods yesterday. Shameful.
zanzerbar
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 11:50 a.m.
There are acres of land at Fuller park that could be used. Plenty of parking also.
eze
Tue, Jan 15, 2013 : 5:17 a.m.
Fuller park is destined to be taken over by the university eventually and converted into a parking lot for employees. It's only a matter of time...
grimmk
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 11:41 a.m.
So, there are dogs ON leash there already? So...off leash will make them what? More noisy? Um... something doesn't smell right. Come on. It's not like they are putting up a zoo. Dog parks are great! And you know, you CAN train your dog not to bark. But that's what dogs DO. I mean, we could all ask everyone in your area not to TALK during your service too. That's totally feasible.
Jake C
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 8:07 p.m.
I think some people underestimate the power of social pressure. When one dog owner is walking their dog in a random field and their dog does its business, and there's no "doggie bags" around to dispose of the waste, the owner isn't likely to do anything about it. But when there's a dozen other dog owners all standing around with you in a relatively small area, and there's a whole box of "doggie bags" just 10 feet away, there's a lot of social pressure on the dog owners to properly pick up and dispose of their dog's waste. So if anything, this dog park might result in the neighboring area being cleaner of animal waste than it before.
Jud Branam
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 4:07 p.m.
Nothing really happens there now. The city bought the house on that spot and tore it down, meanwhile renovating the park driveway in a way that kind of isolates the lot.
Jessica Webster
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 3:25 p.m.
I often take my dog to the Swift Run dog park on the other side of town. Dog owners there are pretty fastidious about cleaning up after their pooches. We have to pay an annual fee to use the dog parks, so we want them to be as usable (ie not filled with feces) as possible. There's no reason to think that the same thing won't happen at this new, very convenient, location.
Homeland Conspiracy
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 12:31 p.m.
We are not talking about "college bars downtown, or the stair wells of most parking structures". We are talking about a BIG dog toilet.
Goober
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 12:16 p.m.
A dog park would be a very welcome addition to this neighborhood. What really smells bad is the street area outside of most college bars downtown, or the stair wells of most parking structures.
Homeland Conspiracy
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 12:14 p.m.
You are assuming that ALL dog owners are responsible. And you nailed it when you said "something doesn't smell right" that smell would be the dog toilet that's a cross the street.
smokeblwr
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 11:44 a.m.
I tell you what won't smell right. The stench of a winter's worth of feces warming on an April morning.
Barzoom
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 11:33 a.m.
Looks like a good location to me. People need places to let their dogs run free and play.
Silly Sally
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 2:17 p.m.
There are other unused sections of the park, near the baseball field, that could be better. Use those instead.
Yael Ganet
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 2:13 p.m.
good...unless it's YOUR church's congregation made to walk up against a pen of dogs, in order to participate in community worship and togetherness. the absurdity of the idea (by real/actual/paid 'planners'???) for a small penned dog exercise area to be placed up against the same sidewalk an already "parking space-challenged" house of worship is simply preposterous. West Park's already at a disadvantage with the horrific, Red Towers of Hiroshima casting a pall over what used to be (for me) a joyful place to toss a blanket over grass for a summer serenade...why not have a 'dog park' across from the 'Y' in the dreary mess over there? Roll out the slag and turf., post the plastic bags...voila!
Victor Lacca
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 12:24 p.m.
If it's the public paying for it then I want space for my goat and chikins too.
Fat Bill
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 11:22 a.m.
I like dogs, but why should the City provide dog run space? If you have a big dog, you need to have a big private yard. Big dogs don't belong downtown.
talker
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 9:54 p.m.
Don't knock Nebraska. Though I've never lived there, I have visited Omaha and I also know a former Ann Arbor resident who has moved to Nebraska and is raising a family there.
johnls
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 8:56 p.m.
Yeah, if you want to play softball you should have a big private yard. I'm done subsidizing space so the self-entitled softball players can use the field for a few hours/night during a few months of the year.
Julia Sawicki
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 8:51 p.m.
First, dog runs are for all dogs - big and small. Second, I pay an extra fee each year so that my dog can have some social time with other dogs in the dog parks, so non-dog owners do NOT pay for these. Third, this is a neighborhood - not a central business district.
Geoff
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 7:17 p.m.
I don't have any kids, but I subsidize schools.
uabchris
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 6:10 p.m.
Why, Fat Bill? For the same reason I pay for the bus to cart you around ...we all pay taxe s for the greater good and needs of the ENTIRE city. If you don't like...move...no one is making you live here!
5c0++ H4d13y
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 5:35 p.m.
Because dog owners pay taxes too.
Richard Carter
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 2:29 p.m.
I look at it from a practical point of view... I'd rather my neighbors take my dogs somewhere and get them all overstimulated and wiped out so they don't spend the night hours barking at falling leaves.
StopCrying
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 1:15 p.m.
I don't know Bill in this crazy attempt to make money it appears that the city is doing what it can to be attractive to everyone around. I mean I guess we could just have open fields and no development but for some reason I feel that it won't attract as many people to the area, when is the last time someone actually wanted to move to Nebraska?
ez12c
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 12:51 p.m.
The concept of "downtown" itself is offensive to nature. People do not belong in something called "downtown" let alone nature's animals.
BHarding
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 12:45 p.m.
Dog owners pay property taxes for many park functions that they don't use. My preferred recreation is letting my dogs play with other dogs, so this is a park I enjoy, and have paid for many times over in the last 36 years of AA property taxes.
Goober
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 12:15 p.m.
Word down! Dog parks are very nice and safe. Hard to believe that some don't like this vs. spending money on ugly art, etc. Go figure!
smokeblwr
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 11:43 a.m.
Word up. Dogs belong on private property. If your property cannot contain your dog you should not have one.
Homeland Conspiracy
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 11:42 a.m.
Dogs are OK, but a lot of dog owners feel entitled & self important. They are not your children they are animals. I really don't wish to see my tax money going to pay for a big toilet for dogs!
grimmk
Mon, Jan 14, 2013 : 11:38 a.m.
I like humans, but why should the City provide human run space (parks)? If you have a big human, you need to have a big private yard. Big humans don't belong downtown. Yeah, you sound just as ridiculous. You don't like dogs. Just admit it.