Ann Arbor school officials say cuts needed to balance budget likely to affect class sizes
As Ann Arbor schools face a $15 million deficit for the next fiscal year, they'll likely have to increase class sizes, Interim Superintendent Robert Allen told the public at a community forum Monday.
Allen said that the district is projecting expenditures of about $185 million next year, if nothing is cut to make up a $15 million deficit. However, Allen said district leaders would not shy away from making tough decisions and looked to all aspects of the district for help.
“We’ve never done nothing. We always try to make the tough decisions,” he said. “We get quite a bit of help from our employee groups. We will attack that deficit and we will come up with a plan, but it gets harder and harder each year as you make those cuts.”
Reducing a deficit of that size means cutting jobs, Allen said.
“The majority of our reductions will be in people when 90 percent of our costs are in people,” he said. “When you talk about a change in programming what it translates to is less people.”
Allen said the district is figuring out staffing for the 2011-12 school year now. He said it is “more than likely” class sizes would be impacted. In the wake of an $18.6 million deficit the district had to cover for the current school year, the anticipated structural deficit is too much to keep all cuts away from the classroom, he said.
Allen’s presentation to about 45 people at the Pioneer High School annex Monday night was similar to the one he made to the Ann Arbor school board at Wednesday’s meeting.
Robert Allen
He spoke about the effect Gov. Rick Snyder’s budget proposal will have on the district’s budget and the consistent decreases in state funding since voters approved the property tax reform measure Proposal A in the mid-1990s.
Allen said the plan to transfer about $900 million out of the state’s School Aid Fund — which is projected to have a surplus of about $631 million in the next school year and is solely meant for K-12 funding — for higher education and community colleges means big problems for school districts. About $700 million would be transferred to state universities and colleges and about $200 million would be sent to community colleges, Allen said.
“There’s been talk about making it K-20 instead of K-12,” Allen said. “It’s hard to lump all those K-12 districts and colleges, community colleges and universities together. Community colleges and universities have options to raise revenue — if there’s a change in revenue, they can raise tuition to make up for it.”
If no changes are made to Snyder’s budget proposal, school districts are facing a significant funding decrease in the coming fiscal year. The budget proposal includes a $300 per pupil cut in funding on top of the $170 cut in funding from the previous year, which will not be restored. School districts are also facing a $230 per pupil increase in retirement costs.
AAPS has about 16,500 students and receives about $9,500 in per pupil funding from the state.
Before Snyder’s budget proposal was made public, the district was already anticipating a structural deficit of between $4 million and $6 million. The new $15 million projected budget deficit assumes a special education millage renewal set for a vote on May 3 in Washtenaw County passes; if it were to fail, the deficit would rise to about $21 million.
Allen mentioned cost-saving measures the district has undertaken in the past few years, including the middle school restructuring in 2007-08 which saved about $2.4 million; the outsourcing of transportation services to the Washtenaw Intermediate School District, which is projected to save about $1.5 million per year; and numerous staffing reductions.
Lee Ann Dickinson Kelley, AAPS interim deputy superintendent for instruction, said the plan in making cuts is to keep class sizes in the early elementary grades low and gradually increase them at higher grade levels, if necessary. She said many class sizes have increased in the past few years, but lots of work goes into making sure the amount of students in classes is manageable and appropriate.
“When looking at class size, we prioritize for our children,” she said. “Our instructional priorities are our top priorities, along with the safety climate at our buildings.”
Among the people attending the meeting were a number of elected officials, including state Rep. Jeff Irwin, D-Ann Arbor.
He said he attended the forum to get more information about how AAPS would be directly affected by decreases in state revenue. Irwin said he had expected the governor to create an environment for economic growth by looking at various places of the state budget, but was taken aback by the cuts to K-12 education.
“What he (Snyder) said during the campaign was he was going to create an environment for economic growth,” Irwin said. “I assumed he meant he would look at corrections and corporate welfare … I’m shocked by K-12 sacrifices. It’s very concerning to me.”
Kyle Feldscher covers K-12 education for AnnArbor.com. He can be reached at kylefeldscher@annarbor.com or you can follow him on Twitter.
Comments
Rachel
Wed, Apr 6, 2011 : 4:28 p.m.
Many people here are very hypocritical. By closing Community High School (which for your information has the lowest cost per student and the highest test scoring high school in the AAPS district) there will be over 400 students that will be displaced and put in a new environment with already over sized classrooms. Furthermore every year hundreds of students dying to get in to Community High are turned down--the school is a huge success--why close something that works? Essentially closing Community High School will up costs, and add additional strains to classrooms. Ann Arbor High schools have an award -winning music program (if you haven't heard them go to Orchestra Night at Hill Auditorium every year), do not cut something that works. Finally the most ludicrous and absurd suggestion I saw was to cut bus drivers. There are THOUSANDS of working parents who CANNOT afford to drive their children to school--whether for time constraints or money. How will all these pupils get to school if there are no buses? That's right they will not attend. Where to cut then? Snyder is so big on the trickle-down economy, why don't we base our deficit on that model. One: start by cutting the superintendents salary, as well as principals. Then freeze the purchase of new electronics (computers, projectors etc.), and finally tax teacher pensions.
Rusnak
Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 2:49 p.m.
I'm not so sure it's "teacher bashing" I think the public is fed up with the end product. Kids that can't pass a basic skills test. You should see some of the job applications I have to look at these kids can't print or, even count change back to make sure they weren't cheated. I was watching some middle school kids leave school the other day only a hand full we're taking books home. Do the teacher's give homework anymore? $9500 per student? Why is it the Catholic Schools can do it for far less? In the private sector when revenue dries up you make cuts in the public sector they spend more. And as far as everyone blaming Snyder? Well he must be doing something right because everyone's complaining must be equal cuts to go around.
snapshot
Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 4:17 a.m.
Why do the schools keep spending money they don't have(current millage) and then declare a crisis when it doesn't come to fruition? They call this management? Get a clue and start managing. this is not leadership......it's "needership"...I can't do my job because I need this, and I need that, and this and that, and this and that, and now the other thing is keeping me from performing my duties. Give me a break. Schools don't need 3 principles, 3 coaches, or a secretary for each position. They need teachers who are motivated, dedicated, and energized to perform, not tenured burn outs passing time until retirement who speak more with their union rep than they do with their students.
Klayton
Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 2:18 a.m.
What about taking advantage of the Michigan Virtual High school for some courses rather than offering a courses? Studies ares showing that blended learning approaches are more beneficial than face to face and many schools are starting to do this (saves the district a lot of money but does not sacrifice education or opportunity). I also agree about Community and Ann Arbor Open. While they are very good schools SO are the rest of our elementary, middle and high schools. Close the buildings (rent them out if possible) and redistribute those teachers and admins so that our class sizes are smaller. I remember in the 70s when class sizes were as small as 12 or 14 per elementary class! I have a picture of one of my classes with 13 other kids in it!
Joe Hood
Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 1:40 a.m.
@local: They aren't bashing teachers. They are bashing a system that unfairly bashes good teachers. We could pay good teachers $150K and have bad ones move along.
Joe Hood
Sun, Mar 27, 2011 : 3:17 a.m.
@macjont: Does she specifically address what Michelle Rhee was trying to accomplish in DC and what she's presently working toward? Or the Christo Rey schools going in low income areas around the country?
macjont
Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 2:50 a.m.
Joe, easier said than done. Would not work. Too many teachers needed. Also, problem of definition. Read "The Death and Life of the Great American School System" by Diane Ravitch to understand where your proposal goes wrong.
snapshot
Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 1:27 a.m.
Why do folks cry teacher bashing or union busting when folks simply as pertinent questions? Educators are supposed to be open minded and welcome the quest for knowledge and understanding. I take being defensive as a sign of guilt.
macjont
Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 2:53 a.m.
snapshot, much of what is written in comments on this subject is "teacher bashing" and advocates "union busting." See my comment (posted around 4:00 pm) for my views on the effect of current proposals and comments. I am not a teacher, but am concerned about the future of our educational system, a system that is headed in the wrong direction.
jns131
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 10:51 p.m.
What Balais will do is the following. Privatize the custodians. Then start hacking everything outside the hub. They will watch the titanic sink before giving up their own to an otherwise sinking ship. They have already hacked and slashed can't do much else except to start laying off who isn't needed. Bottom first and then see where they land. I heard last year they were going to consolidate the sports. Meaning no more three different school football, basketball or whatever teams. One team under one banner. Didn't happen this year. Ann Arbor likes to keep its own well paid. I agree, Plymouth Canton is larger and has it well contained. Ann Arbor does need to get a clue.
macjont
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 9:36 p.m.
Not sure "communism" has all that much to do with it. Simply view teaching services as being subject to market forces as much as anything else bought and sold in the economy. If a certain measure of demand (expressed as how much society is willing to pay) brings forth a supply with qualitative and quantitative components, then a reduction in that demand (expressed as a diminution of the pay, benefits, and working conditions) will inevitably have a diminishing effect on quality, quantity, or both.
macjont
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 8 p.m.
Mama, don't let your babies grow up to be TEACHERS Don't let 'em pick guitars and drive them old trucks Make 'em be doctors and lawyers and such Unfortunately, mamas have been doing that for some time now. To understand, go to the medical and law school graduations this spring and check out the number of talented women in those classes. (My son's law school class of two years ago, more than 350 in number, was better than 50% female.) In the days of the "glass ceiling," those young ladies used to become teachers. (My law school class of 1975 had no more than 10 women.) So what some people seem to advocate is making teaching less attractive as a profession than it is now. With the changes some people seem to want, good luck trying to lure talented people away from law and medicine into teaching. To compare teacher pay, benefits and working conditions to those enjoyed by teachers in other countries is but part of the analysis. Perhaps more important questions must be directed toward what our most intelligent, talented young people can be doing other than teaching. This is where our educational system has suffered most in recent years and, given prevailing attitudes and public policies, will suffer even more in the future. Some argue that teacher benefits are "unsustainable." What is really unsustainable is the delusional thinking that we can address problems of our educational present and future by the gimmicks being proposed in current public discourse. Teacher accountability driven by scores on a multiplying number of tests, "super-pay" for "super star" teachers --- all are destined to fail. Only by making teaching truly competitive with other professions will we be able to lure into the teaching profession the kind of high quality people needed to make our educational system truly competitive. Only with high quality teachers will our schools be what we want them to be.
treetowncartel
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 9:13 p.m.
Makes you wonder about communism a little bit doesn't it.
tmo
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 8:07 p.m.
Make 'em be superintendents and such ....
aataxpayer
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 6:32 p.m.
One more idea.... I wonder if teacher retirees might be willing to return to volunteer in teacher support positions with a stipend for travel and other expenses. This could retiree to experience a different, low pressure teaching experience that is rewarding while allow for FTE reductions without cutting programs or increasing class sizes. Just a thought....
macjont
Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 2:56 a.m.
Also, with impact of proposals on retirees income and benefits, retired teachers will have to work for pay to make ends meet. This hardly leaves time for volunteering in the schools from which they retired.
talker
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 11:09 p.m.
It's nice of you to volunteer other people without any pay. When retired President make public appearances they get paid (unless it's promoting a political candidate). It would be fairer to encourage retirees from many occupations to volunteer in schools. Often, high earning business executives remain on corporate boards after retirement and often receive six figure stipends for serving on corporate boards. Please include these people among those who should volunteer .
local
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 6:52 p.m.
interesting idea. All of the above suggestions are good starts and things to consider. Like I said before, even if teachers made some concessions, we shouldn't expect 15 million from them. We need to find alternative ways to gain revenue for one, and secondly find ways to reduce that isn't simply teachers. It is obvious that class size is going up, but what else can be done? I heard around 90 teachers done at end of year, I guarantee they aren't replaced. Lots of shuffling to take place, which may cause some electives to be abolished. Only time will tell.
Sallyxyz
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 6:26 p.m.
There are a lot of cuts that can be made before teacher salaries and benefits. Increasing class size is not a good idea. Many classes are far too large already and it is simply not possible to help all of the students who need assistance in overcrowded rooms and increasingly chaotic environments. Start the process of budget reduction by REDUCING the top administrators' salaries. Why on earth was the new superintendent's salary raised by several thousand dollars over Roberts' salary??? REDUCE the assistant administrators' salaries, REDUCE the salaries of the principals at all of the schools, close Community High (which is a good school but maybe not an affordable luxury), put in place an immediate evaluation system that allows for firing poorly performing teachers regardless of their seniority (no system should protect poor performance year after year), and consider other options: maybe freeze the purchase of new library books, possibly drop instrumental music in elementary schools, and consider dropping some of the electives in the high schools (does each comprehensive hs have to offer the same set extensive of electives?). I don't have the answers and some of these suggestions are painful when it comes to curricular changes, but attacking teacher salaries and benefits first, and further increasing class sizes, without other cuts first, is irresponsible.
treetowncartel
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 4:39 p.m.
I hope you teacher bashers will also go after the legislature and judiciary who get free lifetime health care benefits and a pension after serving only one full term. Lets see, 2-4 years of service at higher pay than a starting teacher, who has to put in about 25 years to get the same benefit. Pretty fair to me.
treetowncartel
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 7:07 p.m.
@ DonBee, I never considered you a teacher basher to begin with. Your approach and comments regarding school funding are never laced with vitriol that I see in toher posts. Also, I didn't see that Local had made a similar comment. i think the problem is that past administrations have robbed Peter to pay Paul. They have taken funds ear marked for certain things and used them for other things. The other problem is that negotiators on both sides of the table made agreements without counting the numbers, and without making sure the funding mechanism was in place and operational. A union rep does his or her members no good in negotiating things that can not come to fruition later on, just like someone from management needs to be mindful of what they are offering and what is accepted in bargaining session.This is a problem that really needs to be addressed. All criticisms of our new governor aside, he is actually crunching numbers for now, and into the future, when the obligations are going to come due.
aataxpayer
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 5:36 p.m.
@DonBee, Actually, pay as you go DC retirement with no retirement healthcare is fine. The objective is to limit unlimited future expenses.
DonBee
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 4:50 p.m.
Treetowncartel - As I said to Local, great Idea, pull the petition, and I will be first in line to sign it. Let's not give retirement of any sort to any elected official in the state.
Cash
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 4:20 p.m.
Interesting how in countries with the best education systems treat their teachers as honored citizens. And we used to do the same. Then the were paid peanuts and worked two jobs and had no benefits. I remember my dear English teacher working at the Clark gas station all summer pumping gas to make money. Then the teachers organized. They put leaders in charge of negotiating some benefits and good pay. Suddenly they are petty thieves stealing all of the taxpayers money and destroying the US economy. They are the same kind of people they have always been, who now just make more money and get better benefits. Ask them to pay part of their benefit package back, fine. But stop acting like they are the reason our economy stinks. Jump in your car and drive to Wall Street to do that.
Lisa
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 10:16 p.m.
Cash, On the most recent PISA tests, our middle and upper income students came out 3rd in the world. (<a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-jim-taylor/are-public-education-chic_b_798354.html)" rel='nofollow'>http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-jim-taylor/are-public-education-chic_b_798354.html)</a> Our problem isn't our teachers. Our problem isn't our curriculum. Our problem is the huge (and growing!) number of children living in poverty.
Wolf's Bane
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 6:44 p.m.
Cash, you nailed it! This is so sad. Without the millage Ann Arbor and Washtenaw county will done. Gosh, I really dislike Republicans; anti-education, anti-children, and anti-common sense. Let me google Portland, OR.
DonBee
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 4:52 p.m.
So Cash raising the status of the teaching profession = more pay and benefits in your mind? Or are their other ways to do it? Like TV has done for Police, EMT, Lawyers, and others?
Cash
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 4:39 p.m.
On the most recent Pisa test (international), the top-scoring countries were Finland and Singapore in science, Korea and Finland in reading and Singapore and Korea in math. On average, American teenagers came in 15th in reading and 19th in science. American students placed 27th in math. Only 2 percent of American students scored at the highest proficiency level, compared with 8 percent in Korea and 5 percent in Finland. The "five things U.S. education reformers could learn" from the high-performing countries, the report says, include adopting common academic standards — an effort well under way here, led by state governors — developing better tests for use by teachers in diagnosing students' day-to-day learning needs and training more effective school leaders. "Make a concerted effort to raise the status of the teaching profession" was the top recommendation.
Cash
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 4:33 p.m.
I think the posts here and elsewhere are dishonoring teachers, yes. I am not a teacher. But I see it this way: People want teachers to give up pay and benefits. It will happen. Then people will honor teachers again.
DonBee
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 4:30 p.m.
Cash - Based on the American Federation of Teachers website, Michigan is the 1st or 2nd best place in the US to be a teacher. Based on the UN database for cost of living and average salaries, the US is one of the top 3 places to be a teacher. I don't think that is a dishonor. Do you?
Basic Bob
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 2:50 p.m.
How many public high schools do we have for AAPS students? Seven? They threaten to cut classroom teachers but won't close a building or reduce administrative costs. This is how Detroit got overwhelmed with their expenses, assuming that costs can't be contained because they are always there.
macjont
Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 3 a.m.
In terms of those that serve the vast majority of our high school students, the answer is 3. Other schools deal with special situations.
Wolf's Bane
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 2:25 p.m.
Truly sad. These attacks on teachers and students are extremely so shortsighted and we will reap the extreme negative impacts by more and more folks leaving Michigan, e.g. the great brain-drain of the 21st Century.
stillatownie
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 1:58 p.m.
Who cares about the kids right? It seems like not many people do. These attacks on teachers and students are extremely unpatriotic. You are conceding the future to nations that take education seriously. Oh! As long as it's not YOUR kids who are affected. Simple minded and short sighted. You should be ashamed of yourselves. Truly a race to the bottom.
SonnyDog09
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 1:55 p.m.
Organizations have been dealing with budget cuts for decades. The solutions are well known. Welcome to the real world.
macjont
Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 3:01 a.m.
People who live in and understand the "real world" know that not all organizations can be viewed the same. Some, such as schools, deal in "public goods," not profits.
Awakened
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 1:51 p.m.
Thank goodness they aren't talking about cutting school administration pay, benefits, or numbers!
Hot Sam
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 8:06 p.m.
And not doing away with any of the almost 700 school districts in the state!
aataxpayer
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 1:46 p.m.
....continued.... Fourth, we need to increase class sizes and cut some programs. Teacher concessions cannot be the only answer. Fifth, we need to question the wisdom of using state K-12 funds to community colleges and universities and Gov. Snyder has proposed. It simply isn't fair to steal money from K-12 funding to fund colleges that can charge tuition when K-12 schools obviously cannot do so. Sixth, we need to pass the special education millage. Without this millage we are in serious trouble. Best of luck to all.
macjont
Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 3:06 a.m.
Class size increases and program cuts? How large do you want the classes to be? What programs do you want cut? Ever since I came to Ann Arbor in the 1960s, one of this community's most cherished assets has been it public schools. In part because of those schools, businesses and their employees wanted to locate here. Be careful what you propose relative to class size and available programs, as you risk damaging that asset.
aataxpayer
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 5:33 p.m.
@ local, I was word limited and had to split my ideas up.
local
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 2:03 p.m.
like many of those ideas. Thanks for laying out a few more options.
aataxpayer
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 1:39 p.m.
School budgeting is not intuitive. The schools will say they cut 6 million from the 2011-12 budget even if they spend the exact same amount they spend this year. This is due largely to step increases in teachers salaries and other increases such as health insurance still increasing 8% (projected). In other words, while in the normal world we this we would say we didn't get raises this year, in "school speak" they would say we made 6 million in concessions. It's this kind of "school speak" that makes the budget very hard to follow and I applaud those that try to do so and Mr. Allen for trying to make it as clear as possible. A huge budget problem at this point is retirement costs. Let's say a teacher makes 80K. The school district must pay the state retirement fund 20.4%, or over $16,000 to the retirement fund for that teacher. Worse, the amount is expected to increase to 24.4% next year. These retirement costs are based on bad deals made long ago that should have been modified long ago but we're largely stuck with the costs today. An exception is retiree health care benefits, which can be modified. So what can we do? First I suggest that teachers start paying 20% of their health care premium and continue to pay the entire premium over a set figure (I think it is 12,500). This would help establish a sense of equity with respect to the private sector that is sorely needed. Second, retirees should be required to also pay 20% or have their health benefits reduced to achieve a 20% savings. I know this sounds harsh, but we can't allow retiree benefits to rise unchecked. If someone has a better idea I wold love to hear it. Third, total teacher W-2 salary and wages need to be frozen at 2010-11 levels on an FTE basis. In other words, if (not actual figures) 100 million was spent on those cost this year for 1100 FTE's, that is all we can spend next year for 1100 FTE's. The AAEA can propose how to handle salary deducts versus step increases.
macjont
Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 3:08 a.m.
Mama, don't let your babies grow up to be TEACHERS Don't let 'em pick guitars and drive them old trucks Make 'em be doctors and lawyers and such Unfortunately, mamas have been doing that for some time now. To understand, go to the medical and law school graduations this spring and check out the number of talented women in those classes. (My son's law school class of two years ago, more than 350 in number, was better than 50% female.) In the days of the "glass ceiling," those young ladies used to become teachers. (My law school class of 1975 had no more than 10 women.) So what some people seem to advocate is making teaching less attractive as a profession than it is now. With the changes some people seem to want, good luck trying to lure talented people away from law and medicine into teaching. To compare teacher pay, benefits and working conditions to those enjoyed by teachers in other countries is but part of the analysis. Perhaps more important questions must be directed toward what our most intelligent, talented young people can be doing other than teaching. This is where our educational system has suffered most in recent years and, given prevailing attitudes and public policies, will suffer even more in the future. Some argue that teacher benefits are "unsustainable." What is really unsustainable is the delusional thinking that we can address problems of our educational present and future by the gimmicks being proposed in current public discourse. Teacher accountability driven by scores on a multiplying number of tests, "super-pay" for "super star" teachers --- all are destined to fail. Only by making teaching truly competitive with other professions will we be able to lure into the teaching profession the kind of high quality people needed to make our educational system truly competitive. Only with high quality teachers will our schools be what we want them to be.
aataxpayer
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 5:32 p.m.
@local, Teachers and teacher support positions account for most of the AAPS budget, which was the topic. Equity may require other changes for other state employees and legislators, but that wasn't what I was trying to address.
DonBee
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 4:28 p.m.
Local - Pull a petition to remove benefits and retirement for all elected officials in the state, and I will be the first in line to sign it. I could not agree more. People who want to be in office should not get retirement benefits. This will encourage the political class to spend time in real jobs.
local
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 1:54 p.m.
So are you just advocating that teachers pay more, or all public employees? How about our senators and legislatures, should they get lifetime benefits and be forced to pay the 20% that you seem to be throwing around? I guess what angers me the most is that it is just teachers that people continue to comment about, let's get info on what a state senator makes yearly, what their health insurance plan is while in office and after they leave. I suppose i am getting tired of the same old line, "teachers this and teacher that, they should pay, etc.." it starts to get old after a while. You have interesting idea but once again it was solely based on teachers giving something up. What other ideas do you have? Please create a revenue list to share with others for debate. Where else could we cut to help stream line? If teachers were off the table and gave nothing back, what would you recommend?
Stephen Landes
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 1:37 p.m.
Some commenters on this site have written about how overpaid some new State officials are and they point to, among others, Michael Finney at the MEDC being paid $250,000. Mr. Finney is supposed to be helping to redevelop the economy of our State. Our Ann Arbor school board has decided to pay our new superintendent almost the same amount of money for running one local school system. It seems to me that it is AAPS and the Board that are out of touch with reality. We should start at the top by reducing the cost of administration in the AAPS and then work our way down. We may get to the point of reducing teacher pay and benefits packages, but we don't need to start there.
Lisa
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 9:58 p.m.
We've already reduced teacher pay and benefits. And yes, the new superintendent's salary is outrageous. But so is demanding that all other public employees wages be cut while your cronies get a huge pay raise.
DonBee
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 12:55 p.m.
Recently people have said that teachers are under paid. Maybe they are. But the arguments have been apples and oranges. Here is why: 22 year old new graduate Teacher base salary $39,000 Retirement - included Basic health care - included Basic life insurance - included Pay after benefits - $39,000 22 year old new graduate Engineer base salary $55,000 Retirement - $15,500 to 401K Basic health care - $4,800 to Blue Cross Blue Shield Basic life insurance - $400 to term life insurance company Pay after benefits - $34,300 Now to be fair most young engineers skip the retirement contributions, and if the employer lets them the insurance too. The numbers here are "typical numbers" and I tried to pick numbers close to the center of the range. I am not picking on teachers, they deserve good pay. However, I am tired of the "I am underpaid" chant.
DonBee
Sat, Mar 26, 2011 : 11:57 p.m.
Sorry MacJont - I don't feel poor, my family adjusted, we cut back on a bunch of stuff and made it work. So did most of the families in the state. I feel lucky to have a job at all, regardless of the working hours or travel. I work hard to stay employed and know that if I screw up even a little I am gone, like almost every other private sector employee.
macjont
Thu, Mar 24, 2011 : 1:56 a.m.
Poor DonBee. Now we know where you are coming from: The DonBee anecdote. When the economy revives (no thanks to R. Snyder), your pay will revive. Trust me, teacher pay and benefits will not. And we (or rather our children and grandchildren) will pay the price.
DonBee
Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 6:57 p.m.
Macjont - So we now know your connection to teachers, thanks. It helps in replying to you. Yes, some teachers work monsterous hours and so do some engineers, in my case, I average 20-25 hours a week of travel, 4 to 5 nights a week away from home and 75 to 80 hours a week on the job. All for a salary, one that is 1/2 of what is was before the recession. You want better figures? Do your own research and put them up. It is easy to shoot at someone with a factless accusation.
macjont
Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 3:15 a.m.
Don't know about you Lisa, but my wife, a teacher for nearly 40 years, worked as many or more hours and as hard or harder than any engineer I ever knew. And at her retirement, she made $65,000 in a local school district, a sum no engineer with 40 years of experience would have found acceptable. DonBee pulled his figures out of his behind and limited them to make his point.
DonBee
Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 12:48 a.m.
Lisa - You did not read my note at the bottom did you? "Now to be fair most young engineers skip the retirement contributions, and if the employer lets them the insurance too." You and I both know that the "Unconstitutional mandatory retirement health care cost for a service we are told not to expect: $1160" is in escrow and will likely be returned. According to Pay scale the range is $46,000 to $59,000 for a starting engineer fresh out of college, with $55,000 being the median. Michigan Tech has a great reputation and a higher average starting salary. So... An AAPS teacher gets $36,347 first year, if we take the retirement out. So... An Engineer gets $34,300 first year if they match the benefits that teachers get from the various school funded programs. Apples to apples or as close as it gets. Otherwise we can go the total compensation (cost of employee route that you don't like either). As to schedules - most young engineers work 50-55 hours a week to make sure they keep their jobs, 51 weeks a year. Most teachers work 50-55 hours a week 38 weeks a year. So teachers work about 75 percent of the schedule of a starting engineer.
Lisa
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 9:57 p.m.
Don, Numerical analysis is great... except when you fudge the numbers. Come on, it is pretty dishonest to count a 401K contribution as a mandatory expense while ignoring teachers manadatory retirement contribution. 22 year old new graduate Teacher base salary $38,666 (source: AAPS Master agreement) Retirement: $2319 (this is 6% to MIP as mandated by law, no 401K match) Basic health insurance - included Unconstitutional mandatory retirement health care cost for a service we are told not to expect: $1160 Base salary: $38666 22 year old new graduate Engineer: $59, 146 (<a href="http://www.doe.mtu.edu/news/degree_worth.html)" rel='nofollow'>http://www.doe.mtu.edu/news/degree_worth.html)</a> Retirement: $15K contribution (really? You think most starting kids are putting $15K away? doesn't matter.. it is still their money) Matching 401K contribution: ???? (Most companies do a matching contribution to 401k or provide stock) Basic Health Care - ??? (no way of knowing.. every company is different) Base salary: $59146 The base salary is the base salary. A starting teacher makes a 60% of a starting engineer but works 80% of the starting engineers schedule.
snapshot
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 8:19 p.m.
Let's not forget teachers get 3 months off per year, private sector one to two weeks for the first five years. Two or three after ten, maxing out at 4 weeks usually. Sick days at 6 per year, non accumalitive, holidays....probably 6 max and no snow days, paid training, education reimbursement, or tenure.
DonBee
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 6:29 p.m.
And teachers could not do their jobs without electricity, buildings...etc. It is a chicken and egg argument Cash.
Cash
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 5:24 p.m.
But none of them could have done their jobs without their teachers. I'm assuming that is true for all of us. And that's a fact.
DonBee
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 5:22 p.m.
And a bunch of young engineers worked hard to exceed the standards for the design of the nuclear plants in Japan, or they would have been totally destroyed in the Tsunami. Their willingness to work long hours and find innovative solutions are the only reason the plants have not melted down. They had good teachers, but they had an important job to do too.
Cash
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 5:04 p.m.
Just read the story of a young lady...and American teacher...who was last seen rushing children to their parents ....in Japan....and whose body was discovered today. After she got her children to their parents she tried to get home. She chose teaching over being an engineer. Just saying.
DonBee
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 4:25 p.m.
AAite - It also does not take into account EIT, Professional engineer, CEU, and other expenses that Engineers have to pay to get and stay certified. Figure between $1,000 and $2,000 a year with no help from the employer. lynel - Not for the basic program, only for the upper programs if the teachers select them. Note I picked low end programs on purpose in all cases to try to be as fair as possible.
AAite
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 4:03 p.m.
This doesn't take in account the out of pocket expenses teachers much pay (throughout their careers) just to stay certified.
lynel
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 2:04 p.m.
Aren't AAPS teachers paying some of their health care costs?
Topher
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 1:57 p.m.
True. I think it becomes difficult to compare private/public sector though as equals. They have different goals in mind. When you compare private/public schools the pay is significantly different because there are different goals in mind. Public schools teach everyone wheras private are selective. I think we need to be careful when boiling jobs down to numbers.
DonBee
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 1:38 p.m.
So do starting pays in the private sector for engineers.
Topher
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 1:31 p.m.
DonBee - you must remember that it fluctuates greatly based on state and district. When I started teaching 6 years ago I chose between a 28K job in Portland, OR or a 44k job in Arlington, VA. Let's not forget that cost of living factors in as well.
DonBee
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 12:47 p.m.
I am unhappy with how the School Funds are being used, but there is an underlying $4-6 million deficit. Somehow that needs to be closed. It does not have to be in the classroom. Plymouth-Canton (P-C) educates 2,000 more students than AAPS does and spends 2.5 million less on school administration (mostly principals). As a best practice, AAPS should look at how P-C does this piece of things. P-C has 1 athletic director for 3 high schools, AAPS has 3. Here is another opportunity to make cuts that do not impact the classroom. With the new Superintendent included, AAPS will outspend P-C on senior level administration by more than $500,000. There is a $18 million dollar difference in Other Support Services, which includes accounting and other non-classroom services (note there are some classroom related services mixed into this number). Fix these areas and you do not have to touch the classroom for the structural issues and maybe more.
DonBee
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 4:23 p.m.
AAite - The high school campus is compact, the grade schools and middle schools are more scattered than AAPS. Sorry, I don't buy your reasons not to compare. Sounds like you are an administrator AAite.
AAite
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 3:59 p.m.
You can't compare Canton to Ann Arbor. Canton is unique as their campus is physically compact, they can definitely survive with less administration. When our buildings are spread out over the city, you can't reduce to that extreme. High school administrators, in particular, are kept busy all day. They are not sitting around. Athletics is the same issue. You can't supervise a building across town and make sure events are going smoothly.
A2Realilty
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 11:51 a.m.
Although I'm very disappointed in Snyder's cuts and the budget impact, I think that I may actually be more disappointed in the prospect of reading another year's worth of stories on this topic on AnnArbor.com followed by the many naive and selfish comments from those who want to bash teachers. Those who bash teachers largely speak from a place of ignorance and have no idea what the job truly entails nor the importance of educating our youth.
local
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 11:16 a.m.
Wow, it isn't surprising that snoopdog and macabre are the first ones commenting this morning, of course, teacher bashing. Why aren't you folks more pissed at how Snyder is splitting the K-12 school aid fund and giving it to community colleges? That school aid fund could basically cover most of the deficit funding that Snyder is proposing. I understand that it is easy to bash teachers, etc... but you don't seem to realize that teaching is a person business, kids aren't taught by machines, they are taught by people. Clearly concessions from teachers might help some, I don't think it is fair to put the whole deficit on the back of teachers. Think creatively and come up with ways that Ann Arbor can cut/increase revenue to 15 million. Then take your creative minds and call/send your ideas to Robert Allen. A few ideas: sell community high school, use money to build up fund equity. Raise pay to play a bit more, raise a little revenue. Look for commercial companies to sponsor things like athletics, or theater names , etc... Cut instrumental music at the 5th grade, every 5th grader in district gets this right now. Should we cut all busing district wide? A few less electives, maybe two foreign languages versus 4? Folks come up with ideas because if you think teachers are going to give back 15 million, it isn't happening. (besides, I'm not sure I would want teachers teaching my kids after being shafted out of that amount of money)
Topher
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 1:35 p.m.
local - some great suggestions here. A lot of money goes into after school sports. I wonder how people would feel about having volunteers from the community run sports programs? Or corporate sponsors? On a related note - WISD is opening a new IB school this fall - how is that going to affect the budget?
Macabre Sunset
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 11:04 a.m.
We have to choose between taking on seniority, tenure, the pensions and the massive benefits packages, and educating the children. Seems like the choice is obvious to the unions.
tim
Wed, Mar 23, 2011 : 2:21 a.m.
You know all those teachers went into teaching for that BIG MONEY-- get real, the benefits are the only thing keeping a lot of teachers on the job.
RayA2
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 3:55 p.m.
What about eliminating the business tax cut? Cutting education to put more money in the pockets of business owners seems unfair, stupid, and extremely short sighted.
snoopdog
Tue, Mar 22, 2011 : 10:56 a.m.
Here we go again, time for the spin once again. The cuts are going to hurt the kids, the poor kids, oh the humanity. Ok folks, how about we protect the kids and reduce spending through new contracts with everyone that has not taken "real" cuts. That means everyone except the custodians and bus drivers. Get busy BOA. Good Day