Parents to Ann Arbor school officials: Cut administrators, not teachers
Parents Monday night told Ann Arbor school district officials they'd like the district to look at shifting some proposed cuts from the classroom to administration and questioned how the district chose schools selected to share principals next year.
These were among the many aspects of the district's proposed budget parents discussed at the first of two budget forums.
Interim superintendent Robert Allen spoke to about 100 people in the Pioneer High School cafeteria annex about the district's plan to close its $15.6 million budget gap next year.
Robert Allen
“We talked about getting serious about customer service and when people come to the building we have to really do a better job at how we greet the public,” he said. “We need a real good marketing plan put together.”
Parents voiced concerns about the possibility of 70 teaching positions being eliminated, the elimination of transportation for high school students, the combining of the principal positions at Wines and Abbot Elementary schools and Pittsfield and Angell Elementary schools and asked about possible changes that could be made further from the classroom.
The district originally expected a deficit of about $6 million before Gov. Rick Snyder’s proposed budget was released. That budget included a new $300 per pupil cut to public school districts, on top of a $170 per pupil cut from the previous budget that would not be restored. School districts are also anticipating a $230 per pupil increase in retirement costs.
Another forum is scheduled for 6:30 p.m. Thursday at Skyline High School.
Elaine Brown, assistant superintendent for student intervention and support services, said her group of parents was mainly concerned about the choice of schools to pair for sharing principals. She said the parents wanted to know more about the process to choose the two pairings of elementary schools and if there is the possibility of considering other pairings.
Lee Ann Dickinson-Kelley, interim deputy superintendent for instruction, said, while she recognized the challenges Angell, Pittsfield, Wines and Abbot would face sharing principals, all of the schools which are under the new plan share “great attributes” which could be beneficial to each other.
Adding to her comments from Wednesday’s board meeting, when she said each of the schools has strong staffs and parent communities that would help transition to the new plan, Dickinson-Kelley said the leadership changes could present some opportunities for growth in the schools.
“Given the realities in front of us, there are some opportunities that are now present that would enhance our school district if we think creatively in our circumstances,” she said, mentioning potential professional development opportunities.
Allen acknowledged before the presentation began that many of the things he was proposing would not be popular.
Calling the proposed budget reductions the worst cuts he’s seen in his five years in Ann Arbor, Allen said district administrators were really just looking to lessen the damage to students’ education.
“Everything we’re going to propose today, I believe, is not good for kids,” he said. “What we’re looking at now is what’s least bad for kids.”
The budget forum ended with school officials calling for attendees to go out to the polls on May 3 and vote on the special education millage renewal.
Ann Arbor school board trustee Andy Thomas reminded parents that if the special education millage does not pass, Ann Arbor schools will have to absorb a potential loss of about another $6 million.
“If you liked the budget cuts proposed tonight, you are going to love what happens if the millage doesn’t pass,” Thomas said.
Kyle Feldscher covers K-12 education for AnnArbor.com. He can be reached at kylefeldscher@annarbor.com or you can follow him on Twitter.
Comments
Harry Potter
Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 1:14 a.m.
As a student at an Ann Arbor High School with good grades I can tell all of you that there are some truly awful teachers that either don't know how to teach or do not want to put intelligent thought into their work. It seems as though all of the worst teachers have tenure. If it is so hard to fire these teachers then why was it so easy for the board to fire the orchestra teacher at Huron? Teachers need to be evaluated without a one week advance notice to find who the true good teachers are, I have teachers who do things they've never done before on the day they get evaluated. Some teachers are so bad that they start acting totally different when administrators walk into the class room. The good teachers are not the ones that should be fired. What about the six people who stand in the halls all day (community assistants as they are sometimes called). I know cutting them won't come near fixing problems but if I can sit in a chair listening to my iPod at the top of the stairs I don't think that should be a job.
ViSHa
Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 2:14 p.m.
my child has one of these awful teachers. she gets shuffled around to a new subject, always comes late, brings dog (!!) to class (this teacher is not seeing impaired). i think unannounced visits absolutely should be the norm, there should be no "advanced notice". it is like social workers giving a family an advanced notice of a visit when trying to determine if a child is being cared for properly.
a2flow
Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 1:34 a.m.
Harry Potter, As someone who teaches in Ann Arbor, I feel there is a quick way to resolve this issue that you see. At your school, do the admins ever make unannounced visits to classrooms? Some buildings make a point of doing this. It keeps the staff on their toes. I think staff and students both have good ideas of which teachers don't pull their weight. You are correct in that if the admin only visits when it's mandated, it won't be very effective. I actually prefer to see the admins, for it means they really know what's going on in my classroom rather than making some superficial assessment. In regards to tenure, I think your viewpoint is too simplistic. Most teachers in the district with over four years of teaching experience would have tenure. This means many of the teachers have tenure, not just the ones you feel don't do their job. Tenure doesn't guarantee that a teacher cannot be fired, simply that they will be given due process. Ineffective teachers can be told to go away, but it takes documentation and diligence on the part of the admin. Sometimes the admins get off too easy in this regard. If they did their job, these teachers would either be fired, shape up, or resign because of the added stress.
Awakened
Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 1 a.m.
Let us take 12 random (classroom) teachers to form a committee and ask what they feel could be cut. I think it would be illuminating.
Dallas Conner
Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 12:36 a.m.
As a junior at Skyline, I find it pretty redundant to fire 70 teachers just to hire 2 new principals, 10+ teachers and 3 counselors next year just at Skyline alone. Teachers are the pride of every school, not the administrators, AAPS should cutout administrator positions, and other faculty before you eliminate teaches. I have a math teacher right now who has been a long term substitute since the second week of school, and because of a distict policy on how many days one substitute teacher can teach in one class, my teacher has to miss 17 class days for the rest of the year, however the teacher he's replacing is still on the district payroll on 'medical leave. we can't afford to cut education in the city of Ann Arbor, the State of Michigan or nationally, we're the richest country in the world, but were also the dumbest, lets not fall further behind Korea, China, Japan and other countries.
Mick52
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 9:48 p.m.
Interesting point. Two things I like, auditing and program evaluation. I don't mean financial audits but auditing employees and what they do all day long. In good times, fat accumulates and usually it is at the top to benefit those who make the decisions and those folks like to keep the fat. So I am all in favor of cutting admin but only if positions are non essential.
C. S. Gass
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 9:45 p.m.
As much as I like my child's ninth grade principal, I'm not so sure that each grade needs it's own. In many schools, principals are disciplinarians, a sort of glorified hall monitor. I'm not sure that warrants a six figure salary. And I don't care how educated these people are, as if that directly makes the work they do better. Some I've found are overeducated and were not all that intelligent in the first place, paired with an enormous ego, you have a dangerous combination and a sense of entitlement. Cut the number of them and their salaries. You have my permission, ready, go! Another area in which staff could be cut is janitorial. Make the kids serving detention help them clean halls, wash chalkboards, handle grounds keeping, etc. Don't want to? Great, you're suspended. Next time you refuse, you're expelled. An education IS NOT a right. It's a privilege and it's time to start treating it as such. Pay to play is a great idea. Football has long held more sway in high schools than actual education. Now is a great time to bring that to a screeching halt. The superintendent and his assistants should be considered as fair game in this mess too. There are some external considerations for our budget problems, but part of the planning they SHOULD have been doing is 'contingencies'. What to do when the money falls short/stops. Cities maintain 'rainy day funds'. Why has not the school district followed this practice. And don't tell me it's illegal. That's a cop out. Make it legal. Lobby. Everyone else does. You'll lobby for more money 'for the children' when it's actually going to union teacher jobs, why not lobby for something with a tangible effect? Rather, AAPS and other schools across MI have chosen to maintain the status quo. Think outside the box people, it's where ALL the good thinking is done.
say it plain
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 9:10 p.m.
OK I have a question for people who have been to one of these budget meetings and/or Kyle who is doing the reporting here: Does anybody ever explain why central administration cuts have not been considered? Like, do they explain why we can't expect them to outsource payroll or HR or lose some assistant supervisor in charge of interventions positions, for instance?
Steve Norton, MIPFS
Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 4:39 a.m.
They've cut central admin in the past, and just this year let several instructional positions go unfilled after retirements. They've been cutting admin for years, but this is the first significant cut to teachers. And "student intervention" is not as frothy as it sounds: it's special education. The people they need just to do the state and Federal paperwork is scary.
Andrew Smith
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 9:09 p.m.
Look around - other major school districts, progressive school districts, have blended their transportation systems with the local public transportation. It's ridiculously redundant to run a full fleet of yellow school buses in the same town with the AATA. Cut the school buses and let the high school students ride the AATA. For the few - very few - who can't walk, take AATA, or carpool to school, fitting transportation can and will be found.
Momma G
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 9:04 p.m.
I agree with Will, cut that new superintendent's base salary, cut LeeAnn Dickinson-Kelley's, Robert Allen's, and all the administrators at the Administration level. Quit taking away from the children. They are the ones that are going to be hurt the most in these cuts.
Bertha Venation
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 8:53 p.m.
Gee, since we all seem to be somewhat in agreement, do you think they will take the hint? (Don't think so!!)
schoolsmuse
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 7:21 p.m.
I heard some good revenue suggestions last night too: *Increasing the cost of parking at Pioneer on football games to $45 (currently $35, proposal is to go to $40) would increase revenue by $100,000. *Opening each of the main high schools to 30 school of choice students would raise over half a million dollars. I also heard some better revenue-cutting options than sharing principals, such as sharing assistant principals between middle schools. I heard skepticism about the amount of savings that would actually occur with sharing elementary school principals (because you have to have people covering...), and if parents leave the district because of these cuts (go to private or charter schools) you could quickly erase those savings I heard an interest in cutting administrative staff I heard a concern about who would pay for high school students taking the AATA buses, what it would mean for AATA at the end of the school day when hundreds of kids leave Pioneer, Huron, and Skyline... I also heard the excellent suggestion that we look at what other districts that are comparable in achievement--for example, Plymouth-Canton--have done to reduce costs already as many districts had to go down this road before us.
Steve Norton, MIPFS
Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 4:35 a.m.
I have a teacher friend whose children go to PCCS. They are in the middle of a huge contraction, and apparently just pink-slipped most of their principals. I'm not sure they have any pat answers. (Also, if you look closely at achievement data, it's not quite as comparable as many people assert.) PCCS also has larger class sizes than AAPS. As to middle school assistant principals: after the MS restructuring, classroom teachers no longer have the time, and thus are not required, to be out in the hallway during passing time (between classes). Some do anyway, but others use it for scarce planning time - or a bathroom break. That means, effectively, you have two people in the halls: the principal and assistant principal. I'm not sure I'd feel good about the safety of my kids if we reduce that even further.
Doug
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 5:05 p.m.
I think those who favor cutting administrators have no idea what they do nor the effect they have in establishing a good educational environment. There are no "good" cuts left for most school districts after so many cut the past few years.
AAite
Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 3:32 p.m.
@DonBee. Logitically we are totally different in Ann Arbor than in Canton. Canton has a high school campus that allows for less administration. We cannot do the same thing when our schools are spread out over the city. Central administration is another subject though.
AAite
Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 3:29 p.m.
central administrators, not building administrators
Steve Norton, MIPFS
Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 4:31 a.m.
Actually, DonBee, they have the same number of HS and MS buildings, and fewer elementary buildings. There are just more kids stuffed into each one. Not sure that represents progress. (See my reply to a comment above.)
a2edu
Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 2:56 a.m.
You obviously haven't worked for many of them.
DonBee
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 8:11 p.m.
So Doug, what do we get for the extra $4 million we spend over what Plymouth Canton spends on Administration? Please do tell me? Please quantify why we spend 30 percent more on administration than they do. OBTW - they have more school buildings, a larger student population and an economic profile the skews lower than AAPS. So please tell me what are they doing wrong by spending $4,000,000 less than AAPS on administration?
a2edu
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 1:45 p.m.
Ok . . . I just have to chime in on these posts. As a parent of two AAPS students AND a classroom teacher employed by AAPS, here's how I see things: 1. The calls for reducing administration are right on the mark. My experience ( . . . and this is an "I statement") has been that there are many, many ineffective administrators floating around AAPS. This is especially true of Balas (downtown admin) administrators. My recommendation: (a) eliminate the PR folks at Balas. (2) eliminate all "asst. superintendents" that have absolutely no effect on what we do in the classroom each day. (3) eliminate the "arts coordinator" and replace her with an arts dept. chair at a fraction of the salary. (4.) eliminate the "nepotism" hire that "controls the temperature" of the various school buildings (all of us know of whom I speak). 2. Do we really need a varsity bowling team? Three words: pay - to - play. 3. Do we really need 6 high schools? Really? I remember being told by the Board of Ed and the George Fornero administration that building Skyline would help solve or financial problems. I remember us questioning that assumption . . . and then we were accused of not being " team players" for questioning the fudged and way overly optimistic data that was massaged by . . . you guessed it . . . the PR folks at Balas administration. Why is it that with Skyline in now in full swing, we have never had larger class sizes?? Where are the people who sold us this myth? Why are they not held accountable? 4. Do I even need to mention the need to eliminate our district's strange obsession with consultants? 5. Lastly, but not at all least . . . . I have to say that the 1930's style rhetoric from the AAEA has become an embarrassment for me (and MANY of my colleagues) as an educator(s). Tone it down, AAEA: we're broke. The last contract that AAEA negotiated was (and will be, when it becomes clear to the public) a
a2edu
Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 2:55 a.m.
Sorry, my # 5 got cut off. Anyway, my point with the union was that we need to make cuts . . . both with staff (unfortunately) and with benefits. Also, I would much rather work with State officials rather than shout them down. To be honest, I feel that much of what Snyder is proposing is not totally unreasonable, seeing that we're broke.
Tony Livingston
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 9:46 p.m.
hey. What's the matter with bowling? That is the only sport my child is interested in. What about eliminating ice skating? Equestrian? And truthfully, the most expensive of all sports is football. Way more cost that bowling could ever dream of. Otherwise, I agree with everything you said except I don't understand that part about AAEA. Not clear what your point is. Great to hear from teachers.
AAite
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 2:52 p.m.
Size/capacity of the building and class sizes are two different things. Our buildings may be at the capacity they are supposed to be, BUT class sizes are larger and larger than ever. Who cares if the hallways are less congested, it's the classroom size that matters.
Blerg
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 2:40 p.m.
While you may be an AAPS teacher, you clearly don't work in or ever go to the high schools in the district. If you look at the capacity each comprehensive high school is designed for, we're finally coming close to having actual student enrollment that is appropriate for the size of the building.
Dog Guy
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 2:10 p.m.
Yeah, what a2edu said, except for the apparently truncated AAEA comment (with which I likely agree).
KeepingItReal
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 1:41 p.m.
Let's see. We have three alternative schools which serve high schoolers; we have two traditional high schools; and, one mega high school costing millions of dollars to operate and support. Do we need all of these high school? Is it unreasonable to consider looking at closing some of these facilities to ave money? This is an opportunity to look at everything including the use of those useless consultants not just use the scare tactics of laying off teachers and cutting funding for sports which are two highly emotional issues.
ViSHa
Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 2:02 p.m.
re: "useless consultants". it may not save the whole 15 million, but you need to start somewhere. re: if skyline was to alleviate crowding at pioneer, why did they then put rec. ed. offices at pioneer after skyline was built? or has it always been there?
Mick52
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 9:43 p.m.
I recall the overcrowding issues at both Huron and Pioneer which was key to opening another HS. In terms of "mega" I think of aesthetics v functionality and it appears Skyline is more mega in the sense of the former and thus might have run up the bill a little too much. But the crowding was to the point of dangerous prior to the expansion.
skigrl50
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 3:10 p.m.
All 3 comprehensive high schools will be approximately 1600 students. They have removed portable classrooms, renovated space at Pioneer and Huron to make it more appropriate for learning so all of that would have to be undone... Just wouldn't work. I would think that there should be a possibility of combining Clemente (100 students) at Stone (160 students). Both programs are very necessary but the administrative costs are very high for buildings with very few students. If AAPS eliminates high school busing, I don't see how Clemente could function in it's current location since those students get their own bus run and they are not on a current AATA route.
dotdash
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 2:57 p.m.
Steve Norton is right on with the mega-HS remark. I would be one of those who would choose not to send a child to an overcrowded mega-school. High school is where our kids spend in incredible amount of time so to make it a stressful experience affects their lives.
Steve Norton, MIPFS
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 2:17 p.m.
Even if you accept that "those useless consultants" are really useless, there are only a few and it doesn't get us anywhere close to the $15 million. Skyline is no more "mega" than Pioneer and Huron. Virtually all the operating costs are in the teachers and staff. How would closing it save any money? On the other hand, it would probably make Pioneer the largest HS in the state again, with Huron just a couple of steps behind. Massive factories may work in some industries, but they don't work in education. Many current parents would think twice about staying in the district if the high schools got larger again.
Beth
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 1:38 p.m.
I'm wondering - has any mention been made by the board of closing an elementary school? I do NOT want to see that happen, but I'm curious if it's a possibility, especially if the upcoming special ed millage renewal fails.
ViSHa
Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 1:58 p.m.
If you close Dicken, could Lawton, Eberwhite, Lakewood and possibly Bach handle the in-flow? Or maybe some of those schools wouldn't want to take on Title 1?
Steve Norton, MIPFS
Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 4:26 a.m.
I honestly don't know if Scarlett has the room to absorb Mitchell. But even if it did, creating a K-8 program there would be a rather larger challenge than it is, say, at Ann Arbor Open. Not to mention that Scarlett is a large school, receiving students from 4+ elementaries (as opposed to AAOpen's small middle school cohort). I don't see how you could really lose an administrator in that mix. The title might change but the responsibilities would not. Stone and Clemente are the only real programs we have to help students who struggled in traditional HS programs. We might be able to close them if we could be sure these kids were able to get the instructional support they need at one of the comprehensive high schools. But we are moving in exactly the opposite direction. To close those programs would be to abandon those kids.
schoolsmuse
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 7:14 p.m.
They could close Mitchell and move Mitchell into Scarlett without redistricting. That would give them the K-8 program the district ostensibly wants. They could close Roberto Clemente or Stone Schools. I'm not sure how much either of those options would save in terms of the school building, except that I think you would also save the cost of a principal.
Beth
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 3:56 p.m.
I'm definitely hoping they don't put that idea on the table - I think many people are already so upset by the cuts that getting redistricted to a new school would push them into leaving AAPS. I know it scares me to think of my kids having to go somewhere else, when they love their current school and its community so much.
skigrl50
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 3:03 p.m.
Then if they close an elementary building, what do they do with it? Lease it or sell it to a charter school??
Steve Norton, MIPFS
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 2:09 p.m.
They did consider it, but it's not a good idea for several reasons: AAPS elementary buildings are relatively small, and while there is excess capacity at some, there are no schools which could absorb all the students from a closed school. That means re-drawing the boundary lines, which caused a firestorm in the community the last time it was done. Moreover, unless you fire all the teachers in the closed schools, the savings are limited: about $600,000 per year. (Remember, they own the buildings outright - no mortgage or rent, no taxes.) If the controversy over redrawing lines prompts 64 kids to leave the district, you have wiped out your entire savings.
dotdash
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 1:04 p.m.
The real issue facing the whole district is the state budget -- and that, it seems to me, is where everyone's energy should go, rather than pitting parents from one school against the parents from another. Call your rep, call your state senator, call the governor's office, and ask to get the money back in the school fund that will be taken from it. Lansing should be ashamed to be taking away the school fund money to send it to UofM so they can give UofM's money to business owners. I am an Angell parent, and I can attest to all the taxpayers out there that there is no "fat" at Angell. We lost half our librarian's time this year, now we'll lose half our principal's time. The school is sweet, but old and held together with duct tape and twine. The teachers are making do, but just barely. There is nothing extra. I don't say that to say Angell deserves more at the expense of other schools -- because I assume the others are in the same place -- but to reassure tax payers that there is no "waste" of money. Also to thank them. All parents know that it takes taxpayers across the district to pay for a school. So in the midst of all the griping and fighting, I'd like to thank those who don't have kids or who no longer have kids. Your taxes do make a difference and no one takes them for granted.
DonBee
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 8:06 p.m.
I wonder if Angell is held together by duct tape and twine, why did the district spend over $500,000 on the grandstand on one of the football fields that gets used, what 6 or 7 times a year? Both issues are sinking fund issues. I wonder if the prioritization is right?
glimmertwin
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 12:58 p.m.
>> assistant superintendent for student intervention >> interim deputy superintendent for instruction Are you kidding me? How many jobs with these types of useless titles are there. Let the teachers do these jobs, and adjust/hire/fire as needed if they can't. For crying out loud, is this a school district or a government? What a bunch of nonsense.
Andrew Thomas
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 12:48 p.m.
The headline to this story is highly inaccurate. In fact, many of the parents who attended this forum expressed dismay over the proposal to eliminate four principal positions. In particular, there was strong opposition to the proposal to share principals between two pairs of elementary schools. The overall tone of the meeting was one of support for the District's building administrators.
Mick52
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 9:39 p.m.
Interesting point, but I do wonder if every elementary school needs a principal. I think it would be wise to at least examine one principal for two schools to see if it is possible.
Stefanie Iwashyna
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 7:42 p.m.
I agree. The "cut administrators" sentiment was directed at the Central Administration.
amlive
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 12:44 p.m.
I think all the parents and others who are hearing this news of cuts being made in school districts across the county should all take a moment or two in the coming weeks to pay Albert Berriz and the folks a Mckinley properties a personal visit, and express their gratitude for helping defeat the last school millage. They've accomplished exactly what they set out to do, forcing the schools to cut the fat and all that wasteful spending on stuff like teachers and buses. No doubt this helps the community a great deal, and we should all take the time to remember who led this campaign to stop wasteful school spending, and go out to personally thank them.
braggslaw
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 12:40 p.m.
Where the rubber hits the road is the teacher to student interface.... if you protect positions, these are the positions that should be protected. Cut the ancillary support positions. Schools are not a public worx project they exist to educate kids.
ViSHa
Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 1:54 p.m.
Mr. Norton: re: Balas: in your position, would you really say anything negative about the goings-on at Balas in a public forum? Just saying.
Steve Norton, MIPFS
Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 4:18 a.m.
@ a2edu You said "I must say that AAPS has indeed become something of an employment agency . . . especially at Balas. Come on, you know it, I know it . . . we all know it. Balas has become the problem . . . it actually causes disfunction within the district." Well, I don't know that. When I go to Balas, I see a lot of empty desks. When I've had frustrations with AAPS central admin, it's most often because there simply aren't enough people to do many of the things they ought to be doing. They're having a tough time keeping up with the stuff they are required to do. Central admin has taken a lot of the cuts over the last few years. That's why the cuts were somewhat "hidden." We've used those options up.
Steve Norton, MIPFS
Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 4:15 a.m.
Well, Robert Allen's presentation last night gave a hint. Almost all the difference between AAPS and PCCS in admin costs are in building administration, not central admin. Why? PCCS has the same number of traditional high schools (3), middle schools (5) and only 80% of the elementary buildings (16 vs 21 in AAPS). Yet they have 19,000 students to our 16,500. The buildings are bigger, and have more students per administrator. We chose relatively smaller neighborhood schools. The question is, do we really want to bring our building admin in line with PCCS? Ask the parents at Abbot, Wines, Angell and Carpenter who are being asked to share principals next year.
a2edu
Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 3:15 a.m.
Steve, I must say that AAPS has indeed become something of an employment agency . . . especially at Balas. Come on, you know it, I know it . . . we all know it. Balas has become the problem . . . it actually causes disfunction within the district. As far as the school secretaries go, I say fire the incompetent administrators . . . give half their salary to the secretaries who run things anyway. You'd be ahead at least 50 K per pop.
Beth
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 4 p.m.
I don't know how the schools could function without secretaries. Maybe in middle and high schools secretarial staff could be reduced - I don't know if this is true - but in the elementary schools there is 1 full time secretary and 1 part-time assistant, and they do SO much more than answer phones and make copies. They serve as school nurses, since there is hardly ever a real nurse in the building, and children get hurt or need to take their medicines every day. They greet parents, gives tours of the building, help students with all sorts of problems, connect parents with resources they need, and support teachers and the principal in many ways.
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 3:19 p.m.
Counselling--no. That is a critical function at the schools. But questions need to be asked, Steve: how exactly is it that Plymouth-Canton's administrative costs are millions of dollars less than those of the AAPS? What can be done to bring AAPS admin costs into line with those at P-C? Good Night and Good Luck
braggslaw
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 3:13 p.m.
tough choices need to be made... eliminate secretaries farm out janitorial services, farm out IT services, eliminate counseling, etc etc.
Steve Norton, MIPFS
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 2:33 p.m.
What "ancillary support positions" do you have in mind? The parapros who help teachers deal with larger class sizes? The teacher consultants, parapros, and other professionals who meet our legal obligations for special education? The one full time office assistant and part-time teacher clerk who run each elementary school? Schools are not a public works project, but that's the lie that has been repeated so often many people believe it to be true. Teachers can't teach without support systems in place. Take those away, and the whole thing falls apart.
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 2:13 p.m.
The apocalypse must be upon us, Braggslaw. I agree with you. Good Night and Good Luck
gild
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 12:33 p.m.
"Cut the administration" is a popular thing to say, but if you don't have leadership and coordination, you pay the price down the road.
Tony Livingston
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 9:39 p.m.
And we don't pay a price for missing teachers?
A Voice of Reason
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 12:33 p.m.
Simple, first--cut Liz Margolis and her staff who handle communication for the district--why are we spending $500,000 on this (includes marketing budget, etc.). Seems like it was ok before she moved over from AATA and now we even have better email, phone systems, etc. make life simple to communicate with the public. Equals=5 teachers. Secondly, get rid of the Foundation and Wendy Cornell (?) or at least fire her. She is not bringing in the $1,000,000 that she was suppose too. Her success has been consolidating existing existing existing (e.g., PTO Thrift Shop) under the power of the school district She also has expenses that are out of line, in fact embarrassing for non profits. =1 teacher And finally, get concessions for the teachers--we can not longer afford them and there are 50 teachers lined up to work for less who do not have the connections to get into the AAPS. =50 teachers.
glacialerratic
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 11:40 p.m.
The dollars are "rolling in" to the AAPSEF? Rubbish. The dismal record of the Foundation led it to seek the annexation of the PTO Thrift Shop as a cash stream after the fund-raising went nowhere. The Foundation hawks a bunch of boutique projects that add nothing of substance to the classrooms of the District. Last year's campaign fell 2/3 short of its goal even after getting $100k from the Thrift Shop. Nor was this the Foundation's first fund-raising effort--they failed the year before as well. And the high overhead of the Foundation compounds the already high overhead of the Thrift Shop taken off the top of every dollar a shopper spends there.
jns131
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 3:01 p.m.
Without Liz and her phone calls telling us our children are in lock down I would never have known about the bank robbery that occurred near there. We would not know about snow days or days our schools are closed because of power outages. Hate to say, we could cut her staff but not eliminate it completely. As a parent I need to know what is going on and whether or not to get my child of out school early. For this I am grateful.
Steve Norton, MIPFS
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 2:29 p.m.
Wow, venom and misinformation, all in one package! Let's see... The communications department is responsible for lots of things, including attracting families to our district, and responding to the flood of press and FOIA requests generated by the poisonous atmosphere for schools. They also do the web site, which everyone seems to be screaming doesn't have all the paperclip-level financial detail they demand. It doesn't create itself. The AAPS Educational Foundation is independent of the district, and is not "consolidating" anything "under the power of the district." They've launched a partnership with the PTO Thrift Shop, which is very promising. They set the $1 million goal for themselves as a "stretch goal"; nothing like that had ever been done before, but they got a third of the way there in the first year. The AAPSEF's expenses were high because they were just ramping up, and had to get some staff and materials before the dollars started rolling in. They also, prudently, took some of their income to build an endowment that would, in the future, pay for admin expenses while current donations go to programs. These are not "embarrassing" for non-profits that are effectively in the start-up phase.
grye
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 1:02 p.m.
What concessions do you want from the teachers? No retirement program? No medical program? Cut pay 50%? Wow, with all the educational requirements a teacher must have and must continue to take to maintain certification, you want to pound them into the ground? Just think of the kind of teachers we will have when you only want to toss peanuts at them for their services.
Elno Lewis
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 12:30 p.m.
Elaine Brown, assistant superintendent for student intervention and support services Lee Ann Dickinson-Kelley, interim deputy superintendent for instruction These sound like two positions that could be done away with immediately and would not be missed. How many other 'jobs' like this are there in the district? We are going to take away the bus transportation, and retain people in THESE JOBS? What are people thinking?
Steve Norton, MIPFS
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 2:01 p.m.
Well, the Deputy Supt. for Instruction is a post that was vacant for several years, and it has showed. One of Todd Roberts' priorities was filling that, but his departure meant people had to shift around. Everyone wants better teaching and more rigor, but you suggest eliminating the position that's responsible for making that happen? SISS is the special education department; they are the most highly regulated part of our schools, with multiple reporting requirements to the Feds and the State. Don't underestimate the time required for reporting on all the requirements layered on our schools by many levels of government. Taken as a whole, there are a lot of empty desks at the administration building. Many things that ought to be done are not getting done because they have focused on cutting administration over the past several years. There is not much more give there that wouldn't threaten the district's ability to meet its legal requirements.
zip the cat
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 12:24 p.m.
Start by fireing the person who approved the big junp in $ to the new unproven superintendent.
alarictoo
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 1:24 p.m.
@DonBee - True. But we were discussing who approved it, not who proposed it. ;^)
DonBee
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 8:02 p.m.
Actually it was the Consultant the board hired that recommended the number, over the strong opposition of the people who attended various input meetings and BOE meetings. The board went along. Yet another good decision by the board on which consultants to hire.
alarictoo
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 6:09 p.m.
@Zip - That would be the Board of Education. Oddly enough, they all ran unopposed this last go-round. I find it interested that the folks behind the anti-millage campaign last year (McKinley), and who claimed it wasn't about money but the management of the schools, weren't campaigning for open slots on the BoE.
Will
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 12:12 p.m.
If the AAPS Board of Education doesn't reduce the new superintendent's base salary, they better warn her about the hornet's nest they have created for her in giving her $245,000. If she wants any credibility that her main concern is about students, she should start by not accepting 1/3rd of her salary. It would be ashame to bring her here and not warn her that the Board of Education has set her up for a negative reaction from parents and community members.
alarictoo
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 6:06 p.m.
@HaeJee - Actually, the official student population of AAPS is a tad under 17,000.
HaeJee
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 1:56 p.m.
She is accepting a job that leads over 20k students and a huge staff. She should be compensated competitively, education is not charity work. Her salary is not worth the headache that she will have to take on.
skigrl50
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 1:19 p.m.
You don't think she is reading annarbor.com??
Wolf's Bane
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 11:57 a.m.
I agree with folks on this thread, eliminate administrators before you firing teachers. Finally, I am growing rather tired of having to read about suggestions of closing or merging CHS with Skyline. It is an incredibly silly notion, especially given the fact that CHS is a model alternative high school in the nation.
Tony Livingston
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 9:38 p.m.
Yes, but we are talking about money here. We can't have it all. I agree totally with say it plain. CHS needs to stand on its own and the students have to choose one school or the other. Kids come over to Pioneer and take sports team, theater, and music positions that should be going to Pi Hi students. If you choose CHS, stay there and leave the Pioneer activities for their own students.
say it plain
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 1:35 p.m.
Right, just make it a *truly* alternative high school. As it stands, CHS students take advantage of all the options at the comprehensive schools--their theater programs, their huge expensive varsity sports, their AP classes, their orchestra and band programs. Keep CHS to their wonderful CRs and their great counseling, their great in-house staff, their 'smallness', and then at least they are living by the alternative label as they claim of themselves, you know, the we don't "do" AP, or advanced classes, etc. And if students need to have those other activities and APs, then they open the spots in the school for the kids who need to have CHS.
Urban Sombrero
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 11:50 a.m.
Let's not just talk about administrators needing to be cut. Let's also look at all the "consultants" that are hired by the district and are paid in the six-figure range.
AMOC
Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 4:24 a.m.
ViSHa - The other consultant is the "search firm" who convinced the School Board that they needed to offer a HUGE raise to the incoming Superintendent in order to get a "competitive" candidate.
ViSHa
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 12:25 p.m.
yes! we've had a story about Glenn Singleton/PEG (still waiting for the follow-up). what other consultants are there that are expendable?
Gorc
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 11:25 a.m.
Good point DonBee...why isn't eliminating sports ever discussed as an option to reducing costs?
Mick52
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 9:37 p.m.
It's brought up all the time. Usually connected with pay for play. I am surprised anyone has not heard of this. A student should not be allowed to transfer to another school for sports reasons, except for enrolling into a private school. Otherwise you will get programs that will try to lure students inappropriately. There should be the standard if you transfer you sit out for one year. To keep students from dropping out because sports are eliminated is easy. No student should ever be allowed to drop out anyway. Never could figure out why that state allows kids to drop out of school at 16. The law should be revised to make students attend until they are 18. Otherwise they contribute to the burden. School at the PS or at the juvie hall should be the choice.
say it plain
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 8:50 p.m.
I'd love to see what would happen if they moved to a pay to play system which came MUCH closer to covering the total cost of sports in the district. Would people leave in droves? I'd think not. We need to keep class sizes reasonable, ACADEMIC offerings top-notch. We're not losing kids to private schools because of sports, are we? Would we really lose that many students to neighboring districts?
jns131
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 2:56 p.m.
Should see what we pay for some of the hi school varsity sports. Can't wait to pay next years fees. Our child wanted to do a sport this spring but found out ours could not due to the fact we did not pay that fee in September. I agree though, Ann Arbor will loose children by the tons if sports are cut. Ann Arbor has a good sports team.
HaeJee
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 1:50 p.m.
Are you familiar with Ann Arbor sports program in comparison to other school districts? Sports have been cut from AAPS, with the exception of high school. Middle school sports are a joke in comparison to other districts. As parents, we do pay a fee for our children to participate in sports.
Jonny Spirit
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 11:57 a.m.
You eliminate sports kids go to another school that has it and you lose $9,000 per student. That is why, think about it! 4 students leave, see ya later 1 teacher. You can not be the only school that does this.
Roger Roth
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 11:21 a.m.
Ask the Federal Gov. for a bailout. Their denying you would force them to admit they value war, too-big-to-fail Banks and Wall St. more than they value Ann Arbor kids. Confession, they tell me, is good for the soul. This might usher in a whole new way of life in America.
Lac Court Orilles
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 11:20 a.m.
So where are the administrator cuts? There are hidden administrator costs that no one even thinks about. For example, each administrator comes with a secretary, computer for both, separate offices, and a copy machine. Teachers should take care of administrative duties by taking turns and/or forming committees to handle the duties necessary to run a building. Keep a few of the hard working secretaries to take care of the paperwork and greet parents when they visit the school to drop off forgotten lunches. Counselors also function as administrators, so there are ways to save money here also. The counseling function, course selection process, can be easily be done by teachers during homeroom periods. Another way of reducing counseling costs is to allow certain teachers a free period each day to perform the counseling function. Counselors also have secretaries, computers, separate offices, and copiers that add to the total costs of operating a school. Putting counselors back into the classroom will help to reduce class sizes and provide more course sections. Cutting administrators and counselors and forming teacher committees to do administrative & counseling work would build an ownership amongst the teaching staff which can only be a really good thing.
grye
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 12:57 p.m.
Teachers are busy enough try to manage and teach 30 kids on average each classroom period. They get about 20 minutes for lunch. They arrive early to prepare for school and stay late to help students or attend meetings. When do you want them to handle all the administrative duties?
gild
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 12:32 p.m.
So, basically, "get rid of all the administrative support so teachers don't have time to teach."
ViSHa
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 12:23 p.m.
good luck with that "secretaries greeting the parents" thing.
skigrl50
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 11:58 a.m.
Do you realize that Huron and Pioneer DO NOT have a homeroom period. If they did, there would be an increase in cost. Perhaps you should spend a day with a high school counselor and see what they actually do and you will realize that academic counseling is a very small part of their job. Giving teachers a "free period" during the day would cost also, where the students go that the teacher would normally be teaching? You would expect teachers to take turns running a building... when?? In the middle of the night??
Urban Sombrero
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 11:57 a.m.
I have to disagree with you. Good counselors are a necessity in any school. They do far more than just help the kids choose classes.
cette
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 11:51 a.m.
I'm sorry, but most of your ideas don't make sense. Counseling,by teachers, really?Counselors in the classroom, oh man, I can just see how that would look. That's just a nonstarter set of ideas.
Will
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 11:20 a.m.
Start with cutting the new superintendent's base salary and go down the line of administrators from there!
Mick52
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 9:30 p.m.
Right Skigrl, that's what Willow Run said about Doris Hope-Jackson. I would like to know what great things she has in mind that supports such an outrageous salary at a time when budgets are tight. Fat pools at the top, but cuts are made at the bottom where the service is delivered.
jns131
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 2:53 p.m.
I could not agree more. Why on earth pay this absurd salary when we can't even afford anything else for our children. Everything else is being cut. Lets start with that hefty superintendent salary as well.
skigrl50
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 1:16 p.m.
Here's the thing with the new superintendent and her salary... Given the chance, she will earn every dollar that we are paying her. She will be a good voice for AAPS and education in Lansing. She has done great things for districts everywhere she has worked. Do a little research and look at what she has done before you slam her. Everyone says people in the schools are overpaid, compare her salary to an equivalent in the private sector and I do not believe for a second that she is overpaid. I do believe that Dr Roberts was underpaid. Look at what happened to us when we had Fornero as our superintendent, he sold us on a school that we could build but couldn't afford to run, he was over budget, a year behind in the opening, he hired a string of incompetent administrators that took years to get rid of, then he ran out of town with his tail between legs. So what do you really want? A discount administrator or a seasoned professional? Paying a little bit more up front will be well worth every dime in the long run.
Urban Sombrero
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 12:21 p.m.
I wish I could up-vote this comment a million times.
DonBee
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 10:49 a.m.
Cut administration to the state average - save $5.5 million based on the State's FID database. Cut it the level of Plymouth-Canton and you save $4 million. Cut sports and make it all pay to play and you save $3 million dollars Consolidate HR, Finance, Purchasing, and other administrative services and there is another $1 to 2 million dollar savings. There are other non-classroom savings that can be made from utilities to renting space in schools in the evenings. That goes a long way to keeping teachers in the classroom. But the district wants outraged and energized parents, so they will cut teachers instead. Anything to scare people in to passing new millages.
ViSHa
Wed, Apr 27, 2011 : 1:43 p.m.
Is DonBee still conscious? ERM agreed with you, lol. J/K
Mick52
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 9:22 p.m.
How about closing the school during the three coldest months and running school through June, July and August? That will cut the energy bill. And no, there will be no air conditioning. You can open the windows.
Xraymoo
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 4:56 p.m.
I believe the school district could save money if they outsourced (US companies of course) some of their services and let the vendors bid for the services. This is an effective way for businesses to reduce costs and I don't see why this couldn't be applied to non esential administrative costs.
DonBee
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 3:57 p.m.
Lisa - No you picked a third party to buy your gas, the third party selected has been high on price every year. You can re-negociate the tariff with DTE on both gas and electric and get more energy for less money. I am not suggesting turning down the thermostat, but being business wise on the price you pay per unit of energy. The rental prices are well below market price. Getting more money for the room rentals would help pay for staff in the buildings. Savings in energy price per unit will return savings over and over, raising rents will provide revenue over and over. Adult education is well below average for the state, I don't know why Plymouth-Canton has 15 times the adult education money coming in that AAPS. There is on going revenue here.
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 3:27 p.m.
I agree with all of DonBee's suggestions (especially his suggestions about AAPS v. P-C administrative costs) but one, that being to cut the schools' sports programs. And, at an intellectual level, I agree with that as well. How we got to the point that our schools, both K-12 and universities, are responsible for running competitive sports programs is a question worthy of study. Few other nations do it this way. It perverts the schools' missions (just look at OSU right now) and it diverts scarce resources. And those who argue about athletes having better grades need to look up the definition of a "post hoc ergo propter hoc" logic error. So, yes, in theory, I think DonBee is correct. The problem is that, until ALL schools decide to end this silliness, schools that individually end interscholastic athletics will be harmed, not helped. Why? Because those students who place athletics high on their priority list will leave a school system that eleiminates its athletic program and go to those schools that maintain them. It therefore is not hard to imagine hundreds of AAPS students leaving the district and going to districts that are "schools of choice." If this were to happen (and I fully believe it would), cutting athletics would actually costs the AAPS more money in terms of per pupil funding than it would save. Again, I think DonBee's sense of it is correct: it is time for the entire state to reconsider the lunacy of public schools funding expensive interscholastic athletic programs. But it makes little sense for any single district to eliminate its program. Good Night and Good Luck
Lisa Starrfield
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 11:08 a.m.
Don, We cut utility costs five years ago in a previous budget crisis. I've had to warn my students to keep a sweatshirt in their locker ever since. Heat is turned off over breaks. This past winter, the stairwells in our building were frequently below 50 degrees. Unfortunately, the costs to heat the buildings keeps increasing and you can only turn the heat down so low. I don't think there is much savings to be had there. Some buildings are rented out in the evening already. I know Northside hosts the local Chinese school on Friday nights. Fundamentally, the problem is that we keep getting cuts to the per pupil allotment. We had to entirely restructure our middle school programs five years ago because of cuts then but that savings, like so many things you propose, can only be made one time while the cuts are happening again and again and again.
Floyd Griffey
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 10:46 a.m.
When are we going to close Skyline? How about consolidate Community high with Skyline?
say it plain
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 1:30 p.m.
Just stop CHS students from being able to take classes and music and sports at the other schools, and 1/4 of those kids will go to Skyline anyway, 1/4 to the other two comprehensive high schools, and CHS would be what it should be, an alternative school for kids who actually make the best use of the CHS program. The all-important high ACT scores might go down for CHS in the process though, because the population would have to actually commit to their alleged philosophy of being 'against' Advanced or AP classes ;-)
Wolf's Bane
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 11:53 a.m.
If you shut down or consolidate CHS with Skyline, you'll lose some of the brightest minds in A2 in the murky waters of factory schooling. You want that on your shoulders?
skigrl50
Tue, Apr 26, 2011 : 11:52 a.m.
Skyline will be full next year, they won't have room for an additional 400+ students...