babmay11

Thu, May 12, 2011 : 11:52 a.m.

What the people who complain about testing never do is propose a good alternative for measuring students' performance and teacher evaluations. These tests should be a valuable tool in helping to find that out. The Meap/MME is pretty much useful in determining that, at least on a timely basis. It is OK as a crude overall measure, but cannot be used to give individual feedback to teachers and students. This group of tests is designed to do that. You have to do some sort of pre-test/post-test to see what the kids have learned, and when I say "test" it can be various formats designed to let students show what they have achieved. You also need to have it be somewhat standardized in order to compare one individual to another or one group/class to another. No, it's not perfect and no it should not be the only thing that counts, but when you have a well-designed instrument that gives data on performance that is quite valuable in designing better instruction, providing individualized and differentiated instruction, and helping teachers to improve their own performance. I agree there should be parent and student input (at least at the secondary school level) as part of an overall teacher evaluation. And performance on tests is not and should not be the only criteria. But you must figure out if the students are at a minimum learning what the teacher is supposed to be teaching. These tests should help greatly with this.

Steve Norton, MIPFS

Thu, May 12, 2011 : 3:30 a.m.

Hmm. With all the noise, you'd think Ann Arbor currently doesn't evaluate its teachers, or at best does a "drive by" evaluation. Yet I know teachers are evaluated, and I've heard talk of portfolios and other materials teachers develop during the process. I'd really like to know a lot more about what is already done here, rather than hearing blanket presumptions that nothing is happening at all. Moreover, check out the second half of the last AAEA contract: it all has to do with the work the district and union have been putting in to developing a comprehensive evaluation system, based on the Danielson model. I don't know much about it, but I do know that it aims for a very comprehensive evaluation of teachers over many dimensions. I agree with those who worry that any simple metric will be destructive: after all, we want students to come out of school prepared to be productive members of society and thoughtful voters. Testing math skills, for instance, is only one narrow indicator. It should not become the end in itself.

BhavanaJagat

Thu, May 12, 2011 : 2:54 a.m.

The performance of a teacher could be evaluated by an administrator or another faculty member who may attend the class and physically witness the teacher's performance. At the end of the class, the students must also be tested on that given subject matter and the scores must be used for academic grading purposes. While the teacher is performing, students must know that they are part of the testing process and evaluation and to emphasize the importance, the student performance must be simultaneously tested.

Mike

Thu, May 12, 2011 : 2:36 a.m.

Nowhere did I read about getting feedback from the students regarding the teachers. Aren't they the ones who really matter. I can tell you from personal experience, the experience of my children , and speaking with others that the teachers who do the best job of getting the subject matter across to the students have to turn away students. My own kids have been put in classes with the "undesireable" teachers and I've watched their grades go down and their enthusiasm disappear. Ask any counselor who will be honest and they will tell you. Without input from the students you will never improve teaching of any subject matter. Tenure protects those who happen to make it three years from ever having to change or improve. you can always blame it on a bad mix of students or any other excuse. If you actually got feedback from the end users AND were able to remove teachers who were ineffective you might actually reform something. The answer is not more testing, we've been doing that for years and it isn't working. It's scary to be evaluated by a group but it happens to many of us in the private sector and we don't have an employment guarantee, so you better believe we figure out ways to make the end users want to use us. So simple yet so difficult to implement in a one size fits all union environment in which we pay according to levels of education and seniority vs. actaul results.

AMOC

Thu, May 12, 2011 : 1:55 a.m.

So Brit Satchwell is worried that "younger students not realizing that it is actually a test and not simply a computer game. " That sounds almost perfect to me! If the students are just trying to "win the game", that will minimize any stress and trauma from additional testing, and also eliminate any poor performance of students due to test anxiety or stereotype threat. I think having a certain sort of standardized test run approximately once / quarter, without any disruption of the normal school day schedule would be about right to give suitable feedback to the teachers and the students about how well the lessons are being absorbed, and how the students are doing compared to grade-level standards. In the case of advanced students, this might give some evidence of their achieving "one years' growth per year of instruction" in a way this the MEAP does not. Right now, with the huge focus on meeting the minimum standards, many of the brighter kids attending school in AAPS are ignored or turned into teachers' helpers all the way until they get to high school.

Rachel

Thu, May 12, 2011 : 12:38 a.m.

As a student I detest computerized tests. A computer can not grade a student. Every year I have to take MyAcess (a computerized writing test) and every year I get a bad score--however when an actual TEACHER grades me on a piece of writing, I am always highly praised. I recently found out that to get a high score on MyAccess one has to use words such as "pugnacious" or "fugacious", even if the word has no correlation to the topic at hand.

loves_fall

Wed, May 11, 2011 : 11:01 p.m.

Yep. Another test, that'll fix everything.

lynel

Wed, May 11, 2011 : 11 p.m.

I'm not going to weigh in on the pros or cons of additional testing of our students, but I am concerned with Dickinson-Kelley's statement, "That purchase would cost the district $62,856 annually, but the district has applied for a grant from the Ann Arbor Public Schools Education Foundation for $47,762." I have donated to the AA Schools Education Fund since its inception. Didn't realize that the funds were being spent in this manner.

macjont

Wed, May 11, 2011 : 9:40 p.m.

"Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted." Albert Einstein The current approach to education seems to be ignoring these words of wisdom.

kathryn

Wed, May 11, 2011 : 7:23 p.m.

Why does our district always believe that buying an expensive piece of software is going to fix the achievement gap? Software does not replace teaching. Testing does not replace teaching. Add up those numbers again...what exactly are you buying for that money?

Moonmaiden

Wed, May 11, 2011 : 6:39 p.m.

The point many posters are missing is that the NWEA tests periodically so you can actually measure growth (or regression). It gives you DATA which is needed to draw real conclusions. Sometimes we think a certain teacher is great because s/he comes in early, stays late, and is an excellent disciplinarian. Well, how do her students test over time? As someone has already said, if you test them at the beginning of the year and at the end, logic would lead you to believe that MAYBE the teacher had something to do with the results? Traditional evaluation of teachers looks at everything except results. Data Data Data . . .

Beth

Wed, May 11, 2011 : 6:01 p.m.

I agree with those who feel our kids are already taking too many tests. I also agree with those who would like to see parent evaluations play a role - and I say this as a teacher myself. Parents can and should give important information about how their child is doing and how the teacher interacts with the whole family - that is a big part of teaching, too. Although I can see that parent feedback would be less helpful once kids leave elementary school and parents have much less contact with their child's teachers. Maybe once kids are older, there could be a place for student feedback?

Andrew MacKie-Mason

Wed, May 11, 2011 : 5:57 p.m.

The headline in the AA.com digest was "Ann Arbor looks at new way to measure student growth, teacher performance." I was really excited, and then I quickly learned that it's just another idiotic computerized test. As someone who took various tests like this in my years in the AAPS, I can tell you that they're basically pointless. Kids don't care about them because they realize how stupid the tests are, and so they just skim through the exam so that they have extra time in the computer lab to check Facebook. Even if students actually try, the exams are horrible at measuring anything that matters. Don't waste your money, AAPS.

A2Girl63

Wed, May 11, 2011 : 5:35 p.m.

Why don't you take a look at South Arbor Charter Academy. They use these tests and look how well those students by measuring their MEAP scores compared to Ann Arbor. There is a reason we pull our kids from traditional public schools and place them in Charter schools and this testing is one of them.

Will Warner

Wed, May 11, 2011 : 5 p.m.

In industry we have a phrase: "You get what you measure." Whatever management decides is important enough to assign quantitative benchmarks for is what you will get. The organization will operate in whatever way it has to to perform well as measured by the given benchmarks. Of course, it is also true that you don't get what you don't measure. There is no time/energy/money to devote to doing well on things that are not assessed in making a determination of "success." The quantitative sieve captures the dumplings for weighing, but the broth—the great, vague, infinitely-fine, impalpable context—passes through unnoted and unrewarded, and, consequently, neglected. It strikes me that by its very nature there is a lot of broth in teaching, a lot of things difficult to quantify. How would we measure, for example, the degree to which a certain teacher, by the totality of the impression she creates, turns a certain student from a child who hates school into the first person in his family who loves school, when the effects of that turn-around are not measurable until one or two years have passed? Here, it seems to me, the quantitative approach has its limitations. If I were a teacher, I would prefer that my effectiveness be judged by a person, my principle. Subjectivity has its problems, but also its virtues.

Steve

Wed, May 11, 2011 : 4:36 p.m.

When do students actually learn these days? It seems every time you turn around a new test is being introduced, so if you spend all of this time preparing for tests, when do you actually learn new things? I guess you learn a subject if it's on the test, but if it's not on that test I guess you are out of luck. Did I also read this right that this test requires a specific type of computer to actually function? That seems like a pure waste of money.

BroncoJoe

Wed, May 11, 2011 : 4:35 p.m.

I know a number of teachers that would LOVE to have exactly this type of testing set up in their districts. I don't understand how anyone can say if the children are tested at the beginning of the year and then again at the end of the year that the teacher's performance is not going to show up there. Yes, there will be kids that "don't test well." Yes, there will be kids that don't care and don't complete the test with any effort. Yes, there will be noise in the results. I still believe most kids want to learn, want to do well, and want to get good grades. Overall, good teachers will show improvement in the average competency of their students. The biggest complaint I've heard is social promotion and children not being prepared for the next grade level or not having the needed skills from the previous grade levels. If that really is the problem for teachers, it will be shown very quickly through this type of testing and can be addressed. And quit worrying about gym, art, and any other class where this testing will not be applicable. If kids get the core courses right, everything else will be fine.

janofmi

Wed, May 11, 2011 : 4:19 p.m.

AAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH! I feel like Charlie Brown. Why isn't anyone listenting to the experts? More and more there is clear evidence that we are testing kids too much. Now we want to subject children to more testing with part of the purpose for the evaluation of teachers. Tell me how a multiple choice format test can evaluate the most important things that teachers teach the children...love of learning, critical reasoning, the ability to verbalize what has been learned so that others can understand what you know, and (let me repeat) love of learning... So this is one more place where teachers will feel forced to "teach to the test" rather than teach to the children's needs. And...with a huge budget shortfall the District wants to spend more money on something that makes kids miserable. I am more and more in support of the movement on the part of parents to refuse to allow their children to face so many assessments. What do we want for our kids? More testing or more opportunities for children to be in a place where real learning is honored.

Jonny Spirit

Wed, May 11, 2011 : 3:49 p.m.

I know if I were a teacher I would through away all my books and just teach to the test. The kids would learn nothing but what is on that test. Good thinking, who needs other skills. What are you going to do about the band class, have them toot on a horn and if it is louder the second the teacher gets an good job.

Ethics Advocate

Wed, May 11, 2011 : 3:18 p.m.

I wasn't aware that tenured teachers weren't reviewed every year. In fairness to students and parents, I think they certainly should be. I am as a tenured U-M faculty member. One reason for that is that we are not unionized, so the annual review affects our pay raise for the following year. But even if we were unionized, I'd still view it as most important.

BhavanaJagat

Wed, May 11, 2011 : 3:09 p.m.

I support the view stated by 'Brightside' and also share the concerns expressed by 'Townie'. The time has come to evaluate the performance of the Board Members individually and check to see if they have any understanding of the process of Learning and the business of imparting Education. We should not let these Board Members throw away money to purchase these Assessment programs and spend more money to implement them while the students and teachers lose precious time that is available for the actual learning experience.

Dennis

Wed, May 11, 2011 : 2:57 p.m.

State=wide testing to measure a student's progress or a teacher's ability is a total waste of time and money. The only one that benefits is the software company that charges for the test. This is a cost we don't need. My daughter has a non=verbal learning disorder and does not test well at all. How will this help her, her classmates with learning disabilities, or her teacher. Snyder just cut education and now they want to add cost. It just doesn't make sense. Maybe he would be better off measuring the amount of jobs he and the Republicans are "creating" or the amount of time he has left in office if he continues to ransack the education system. Leave the teaching to the teachers Rick....you know nothing about teaching.

Townie

Wed, May 11, 2011 : 2:01 p.m.

Could someone please add up all the thousands of dollars this wonderful assessment is going to cost? The numbers just overwhelm my old brain. The board is looking for some outside consultant to do their job on a prickly subject - let's just admit that upfront. How about first assessing our town council and state legislature? They've been the ones making the most mistakes and performing decidedly sub par for the longest time here. Easy, simplistic solutions usually ... aren't.

brightside

Wed, May 11, 2011 : 1:54 p.m.

Teachers do not mind being evaluated and held accountable for their work. However, they work in a SYSTEM, the educational system. Systems have many components that interact in important ways to produce a result. Teachers are only one of the components to this system and should not be judged in isolation of how well or not well the whole system is functioning. What else needs to be taken into account? How about how school boards—are they knowledgeable about all aspects of a school system? Do they know how to make a system function well? Have they provided the best resources (textbooks, lab equipment, classroom supplies) that make for a healthy school system? How about administrators—are they knowledgeable about all aspects of a school system? Has the curriculum director provided a robust curriculum, aligned district-wide, and provided adequate training to teachers? Are principals effective leaders and disciplinarians and motivators and crisis managers and communicators and trouble-shooters? And, of course, how do we factor in what the student and his or her family bring to the system? Are they following teacher recommendations to complete homework, to participate fully in class, to engage in community enrichment, to get adequate sleep and eat a healthy diet? Are students free from worry about domestic problems so they can concentrate on their studies? Free from the distractions of technology and jobs and athletics so they can perform well on tests? Are they even taught how to do well on tests (aside from knowing content)? How do we evaluate all components of the educational system, and hold everyone accountable? When we can do that, then test away and hold teachers responsible for their students' test scores. Until then, recognize this effort to include student achievement in teacher evaluations is just one more way to bash teachers, convince the public they are not worth their salaries, and destroy a national public school system.

RWilson

Wed, May 11, 2011 : 1:41 p.m.

I taught grade school many years ago. Forget tests. I think that parents and the principal could best rate grade school teachers. The students themselves would be adept at rating high school teachers.

dotdash

Wed, May 11, 2011 : 1:23 p.m.

This is an absolutely terrible idea. The measurement error on these instruments is high, so tracking individual students over time is very "noisy". Making teacher evaluations based on a series of noisy individual results seems dubious at best. This is yet another government-driven idea with serious downsides (more testing, more teaching to the test) and little -- or no --upside for kids.

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Wed, May 11, 2011 : 12:46 p.m.

Blerg asks: "will physical education teachers need to have their students run a faster mile?" What happens to the phys ed teacher if the student simply refuses to run the mile and, instead, walks it? What happens to the math teacher if the student simply refuses to do their homework? Any system that evaluates teachers based solely on student performance removes all accountability from the student and their parents (where most of the accountability belongs) and places it on teachers (who cannot supervise their students once those students leave the teacher's classroom). Good Night and Good Luck

YpsiGirl75

Wed, May 11, 2011 : 12:46 p.m.

Ypsilanti is not the only district using this test. Saline uses it too. Many districts do. The problem with using a test like this is that not all students test well, even if they are learning and even if they have a great teacher. It, like everything, is trying to be objective in a very subjective field. Nothing will ever compare to good administration, oversight and teacher improvement. One of my children is an average student, with great teachers and has great school experiences, however, her NWEA scores are low because she doesn't do well on computerized tests. Does this reflect poorly upon the teacher? NO, and it shouldn't! Ask my daughter what she thinks, ask me what I think as a parent, observe the teacher, and note that she teaches using centers and such, not the way she taught 30 years ago! It is time to move forward, but we are focusing on the wrong thing. 85% of the teachers at my daughter's school are amazing, get rid of the rest! Don't keep them because of tenure and evaluate them appropriately!

marqueA2

Wed, May 11, 2011 : 12:37 p.m.

Awful idea. Just as one can lead a horse to water, but you can not make him drink, teachers can lead learners to knowledge but can not make them think. Its the equivalent making the weatherman's pay dependent upon him producing sunny days.

northside

Wed, May 11, 2011 : 12:35 p.m.

Bart Simpson will soon have the perfect weapon of revenge against Ms. Crabapple: just fail that final test and her pay will be cut.

Elizabeth Nelson

Wed, May 11, 2011 : 12:26 p.m.

I wish there was some way of crafting a system that allowed more parent input. I appreciate that it's impossible for a teacher to please everyone, but if you collected evaluations and there was a policy of discarding the couple highest/lowest scores, you could get a reasonable measure of the situation overall. In this town, at least, I feel like the parents have a better clue about what's going on than the principals.

grye

Wed, May 11, 2011 : 12:21 p.m.

I question if the tests will factor in the students who do not perform well despite teacher involvement with the student and parents. Often parents will not even return phone calls from the teacher as the teacher tries to find ways to hep the student. These are significant factors that cannot be overcome and need to identified during the evaluation process.

a2person

Wed, May 11, 2011 : 12:20 p.m.

Ugh. So kids will have to take this test several times per year? And, I'm guessing, the teachers will then be spending EVEN MORE time "teaching to the test," instead of engaging with creative, dynamic curricula. If I wanted my kids in a factory, I'd put them there. I prefer the schools to be decidedly UN-factory-like.

A2Realilty

Wed, May 11, 2011 : 11:45 a.m.

I don't know if the test will work, and quite honestly, I'm not sure that I actually understand the test itself. However, I am impressed that AAPS is already exploring possibilities to meet the criteria in Snyder's Education Letter. I would love to see a practice test for a couple of subjects so that I could understand how the students will take the exam and what the exam looks like from the student perspective. @Kyle - Would such a practice exam(s) be available online? If so, could a link be provided?

Moonmaiden

Wed, May 11, 2011 : 11:43 a.m.

New? Ypsi has been using this for 3 or 4 years. It can be used very effectively by teachers to help students see where they need to improve and, yes, teachers can also see over time where they need to improve. It's all about interpreting and using data to improve and to measure academic progress.

Ignatz

Wed, May 11, 2011 : 11:40 a.m.

Testing students measures not just a teacher's ability to impart imformation. It also reflects the attitude of the students themselves and how the parents interact with said children. It fails to look at the whole picture.

Blerg

Wed, May 11, 2011 : 10:49 a.m.

How is this a fair measure of teachers in all subjects? If an English teacher gives this test to his or her students and they need to read better and faster at the end of the year, will physical education teachers need to have their students run a faster mile or make more free throws at the end of the term? How about art? Will all of those students need to improve their shading? Or music students improve their pitch? How can a program that costs more than a new teacher, when 70 teacher positions are on the chopping block, be appropriate when it measures so few subjects?