Ann Arbor firefighters union president draws link between increase in fatal fires and cuts to fire services
Matt Schroeder, president of the Ann Arbor firefighters union, addresses the Ann Arbor City Council during a public hearing on the city budget Monday night. Behind him, several more members of the public are lined up to speak on the budget.
Ryan J. Stanton | AnnArbor.com
The president of the Ann Arbor firefighters union told Mayor John Hieftje and the City Council Monday night he believes deep cuts to the fire department over the last several years have led to an increase in response times on fires — and subsequently, a higher fatality rate.
"In the last decade, while the city eliminated a fire station, 37 firefighters, and shut down two fire trucks, our average response time has risen," Matt Schroeder said during a public hearing on the city budget, decrying the proposed elimination of 12 more firefighter positions.
"You cannot say that response times will not be affected. They are affected. They continue to worsen with your rotating station closures, and they will get worse if you cut more people."
The rotating station closures Schroeder referred to are a result of a new practice the city began in mid-February of closing one of the city's five fire stations on a rotating basis to curtail costs. Each month a different station is assigned to be closed and property owners receive service from the next closest open fire station.
Schroeder said city administrators have referenced their own data as a guise for further cuts, but they haven't shared with the public the "real data."
"In the last 20 years, 15 citizens lost their lives to fires in Ann Arbor. From 1991 through 2005, in 14 years, three people were killed by fire, or an average of 0.2 lives per year," Schroeder said. "But since 2006, in six years, 12 people were killed, or an average of two lives per year."
Going from 0.2 lives per year to 2 lives per year is a significant increase, Schroeder said, and it coincides with a 29 percent reduction in the number of firefighters on the job.
During the same time, Schroeder said, 13 citizens had to jump from windows and roofs to escape fires in their homes because the fire department could not get there sooner.
"It has been stated that the city is 'pretty comfortable' with making more cuts," he said. "How comfortable is the city with people jumping off rooftops while they wait for numbers of firefighters needed to safely exact a rescue?"
Of the 12 positions in the fire department slated for elimination over the next two years, seven would be cut July 1, two of which are vacant.
Council Member Stephen Rapundalo, chairman of the council's labor committee, said at Monday's meeting the firefighters union has been unwilling to bring its health care benefits in line with the packages offered to the city's nonunion employees. If the union did that, he said, it could save at least two firefighters from layoffs.
But many firefighters still feel betrayed after what happened last year. In an effort to avoid layoffs, the firefighters union last January agreed to a new contract that included a 3 percent wage reduction and a 1 percent increase in pension contributions. City officials said that was appreciated, but they still ended up cutting five firefighter positions.
"Our firefighters have been vilified," Schroeder told council members. "We are doing more with less but sometimes we can't do it in time. This has to do with safety."
Hieftje said he wished he and other council members could say what they said at this time last year — that they had found a way to minimize cuts to public safety. But the reality is the city is facing a $2.4 million deficit next year and there isn't a lot of wiggle room in the budget.
"Our choices are very narrow," he said. "I don't recall a budget year that has been anything as tough as this one. It just seems to get worse. I know cities across the state have really run out of strategies."
Schroeder also said Monday night the city's firefighters save lives by responding to emergency medical calls, as evidenced by two instances this past week where city firefighters arrived well before Huron Valley Ambulance and used basic life support skills to save the lives of two citizens who experienced serous life-threatening events.
"Also being said is that HVA is capable of handling the ambulance calls in the city and that we go to these runs because of union protocols. This is not correct," Schroeder said. "We are highly trained professionals that want to provide services to our citizens."
Schroeder received a round of applause from the citizens who filled the council chambers Monday night after he was finished speaking.
Ryan J. Stanton covers government and politics for AnnArbor.com. Reach him at ryanstanton@annarbor.com or 734-623-2529. You also can follow him on Twitter or subscribe to AnnArbor.com's e-mail newsletters.
Comments
Kirk Scarbrough
Thu, May 5, 2011 : 3:45 p.m.
I conducted a study on Ann Arbor response times based on call data and recorded response times from 2003-2009. The study showed 85% of the city to be over 4min of initial response time. 4min being the standard initial response time to combat a typical 1-3 story structure fire as established by the National Institute of standards and technology. However initial response time can be deceiving in that firefighters cannot conduct saving operations without abiding by the 2 in 2 out rule, meaning without personnel to make a save of the firefighters themselves no firefighter may enter a building to conduct extraction. The true question that needs to be asked and needs to be researched is how can we improve the AAFD system of fire and EMS to better provide for the citizens while still accounting for the cut backs in funding. The Mayer has put forth 50,000 dollars of research funding on the matter to the International City/County Management Association who specialize in evaluation and consultation of sustainability within city governments. However there has been $0 spent on research of the emergency system in regards to how effective it is at protecting citizens before and after cuts have been made. The mayor stating he is "comfortable" with the cuts being made in regard to the safety of Ann Arbor citizens is not enough information for an educated public to make intelligent decisions.
Kai Petainen
Wed, May 4, 2011 : 9:03 p.m.
Today I was walking along Gallup Park and noticed the AAFD practicing drills on water rescue. fanastic! I mentioned earlier in this writeup that I thanked the mayor for the AAFD, but I never showed that email. So, here it is....(sent to the mayor who would forward it to the AAFD) "I'd email the fire department, but I don't know their email, so I'll email you and wish a thank you to the AAFD. I'd like to wish a sincere THANK YOU to the Ann Arbor Fire Department. They responded quickly to the spill and worked hard on the inital containment of the spill. Many people came from the department that night, and from the incident reports I read, they are to be THANKED. Even as I read about the spill that night, and as frustrated as I might be for the lack of information regarding certain aspects of it from other agencies, their incident report seems to be the most comprehensive, honest and without worry of political correctness. Lt. S., FF T., and Capt. L., Thank you! In otherwords, the Ann Arbor fire department and the firefighters did their job and they seriously rocked at it. Thank you! -kai petainen living in Ann Arbor along the Huron River"
TKA2
Wed, May 4, 2011 : 4:25 p.m.
We have all fallen for the red herring here, the old Fraser rope a dope is working like a charm! We are vociferously debating publice safety cuts, which is good and many valid points being made on both sides, but... No one is asking why there are no cuts to city hall admn staff. The firefighters should fight fire with fire: Call for the same number and % of cuts to city hall staff that public safety gets. No one could argue with a straight face that city hall admn should be saved in favor of public safety officers of any type, could they?
CincoDeMayo
Wed, May 4, 2011 : 10:30 a.m.
It is important to look at the larger picture as explained by Jack Eaton at 11:21 AM on May 3, 2011 "Police are a higher percent of the general fund because of a basic math principal. If you take dollars out of the denominator and keep the numerator the same, the percent goes up. In 2000, solid waste used to be part of the general fund. Just adding back FY2010 solid waste expenses to total general fund expenses (the denominator) reduces the police FY2010 percent to 44%. If you add back the other departments that have been moved out of the general fund since FY2000 (project management, IT, construction code fund) the percent drops to 39% The employee figures reported in the audits do not support the claim that everything has been done to protect the safety services budget. The number of police and fire employees dropped 35% between FY02 and FY10. The decline in non safety services employees during the same period is 24%. The proposed FY13 budget has more IT and DDA employees than those departments had in FY02." The safety services are an integral part of a healthy, safe, quality city. We are letting the city fail us.
Stuart Brown
Wed, May 4, 2011 : 5:28 a.m.
I did a simple linear regression on the data and the upshot is the City of Ann Arbor can expect an extra 0.058 deaths per year for each fire fighter reduced from staff. The city has reduced the fire fighting staff from 122 in 1998 to about 83 now so we can expect an extra 2.25 deaths by fire per year due to these staff reductions. Note that this only refers to deaths by fire and does not include extra deaths due to a slower response to accidents and medical emergencies. These changes are the result of policy decisions, not changes dictated by the Great Recession! The city's property tax revenue is higher now than it was in 2001 even after adjusting for inflation. The argument that other cities are laying off fire fighters is simply a reflection of the fact that our political leadership is comfortable with not letting a crisis go to waste; the Great Recession is the excuse, not the reason. The city simply believes it has better things to do with the resident's tax dollars than to "waste" them saving lives.
15crown00
Wed, May 4, 2011 : 4:47 a.m.
the pencil pushing paper shufflers get funded first and they are way overpaid and their benefits are to high. then we get to the departments that help the people.nothing is left so it's cut,cut,cut and everybody suffers EXCEPT the PPPS's mentioned above.
Stuart Brown
Wed, May 4, 2011 : 3:59 a.m.
sailor67 is wrong! sailor67 said, "...15 fire fatalities in the past 20 years is nowhere near enough empiracle evidence to draw any sort of statistical conclusions" Dead wrong--two deaths occurred from 1992-2001 (avg ff's = 120) and 13 deaths occurred from 2002-2011 (avg ff's = 97); a t-test showed a probability of this being the result of chance (the p-value) of about 1% which qualifies as being "Statistically Significant." Fred Gilbert is again dead wrong! Fred said, "...you see that police and fire have grown from 40% to 52% of the budget in just 10 years" Ah yes, the infamous buckets at work doing their magic of eviscerating the Fire Department. The percentages refer to the General Fund which has, percentage wise, grown smaller in the last 10 years as other expenses have been moved into sacrosanct "buckets" leaving police and fire to look like they have been growing like a cancer sucking up disproportionate resources---false! The numbers you need to know are the property tax revenue figures from 2001 to 2010. Property tax revenue to the city increased from $55 million in 2001 to about $80 million in 2010; the city cannot justify making cuts to its highest priority services due to a shortage of revenue. The decision to cut Fire Fighters is a political and policy decision brought about by a demoting of fire safety on the city's priority list. People should keep in mind the fact that Fire Fighters are also first responders to accidents and medical emergencies which are not reflected in the metrics showing the number of deaths by fire in Ann Arbor since 1992.
Craig Lounsbury
Wed, May 4, 2011 : 2:06 a.m.
In my opinion one should never count on the fire department to save them in any residential fire. That means working smoke alarms...the more the better. It means egress quality windows in the basement especially if anyone hangs out down there and in my opinion some sort of rope/rope ladder if your 2 stories or more up from the ground. Something with enough beef to let you lower yourself to the ground.
Ricebrnr
Thu, May 5, 2011 : 3:09 p.m.
"I'm merely hoping we can minimize this sort of mistake." Per the definition of the word there was no mistake. I will allow that the conotation of your suggestion facilitates my implication over your inferrence.
Craig Lounsbury
Wed, May 4, 2011 : 5:12 p.m.
"Thank you for the english lesson." It wasn't intended as an English lesson. It was intended as a suggestion to help clear up confusion in a format where confusion is not uncommon. I thought you were addressing me when evidently you weren't. I'm merely hoping we can minimize this sort of mistake. You don't have a problem with that do you?
Ricebrnr
Wed, May 4, 2011 : 4:48 p.m.
Here's some additional advice for your preparations. Advice NOT a threat. "you have me at a bit of a disadvantage as I use my real name." Yes using your real name is a disadvantage. For our Firefighters here expressing their honest opinion, it can get them fired. For those who are security minded, maybe I don't want you to know where I live and/or work. Where I take my 2 dogs for services, the names of my wife and family members. All way too easy to find out...
Ricebrnr
Wed, May 4, 2011 : 3:31 a.m.
I'll gladly take credit if you "will be properly prepared" be it for imagined threats or otherwise. Good for you
Ricebrnr
Wed, May 4, 2011 : 3:09 a.m.
Thank you for the english lesson. May I return the favor by poiting out #2? yourplural of your (Adjective) 1. Belonging to or associated with the person or people that the speaker is addressing: "what is your name?". 2. Belonging to or associated with any person in general: "the sight is enough to break your heart". More » Wikipedia - Dictionary.com - Merriam-Webster - The Free Dictionary
Craig Lounsbury
Wed, May 4, 2011 : 2:47 a.m.
If your speaking generically then say... "Very good advice thst should be extrapolated to other areas and critical incidents in ones life..."
Craig Lounsbury
Wed, May 4, 2011 : 2:46 a.m.
"...you get defensive and think I'm addressing you specifically." you used the term "your life" in a reply to my post. Why would i not assume your addressing me?
Ricebrnr
Wed, May 4, 2011 : 2:36 a.m.
Hilarious as I've only ever advocated for personal responsibility and defense. Also amusing that whenever I think you have something relevant to say and I use it as a jumping off point for discussion, you get defensive and think I'm addressing you specifically. Trust me when I say you factor much less in my existence than apparently you think I do in yours..
Craig Lounsbury
Wed, May 4, 2011 : 2:31 a.m.
I am going to assume its the latter rather than the former and will be properly prepared.
Craig Lounsbury
Wed, May 4, 2011 : 2:27 a.m.
do I know you? other than in here? You have me at a bit of a disadvantage as I use my real name. Should I interpret that as advice or a threat?
Ricebrnr
Wed, May 4, 2011 : 2:17 a.m.
Very good advice thst should be extrapolated to other areas and critical incidents in your life...
Jen Eyer
Wed, May 4, 2011 : 1:38 a.m.
A comment was removed for containing portions in all uppercase letters, which is against our guidelines because it's viewed as shouting.
Wonderin'
Wed, May 4, 2011 : 1:30 a.m.
sailor67, you stated "First of all, 15 fire fatalities in the past 20 years is nowhere near enough empiracle (sic) evidence to draw any sort of statistical conclusions..." I suggest to you that if even 1 of those 15 had been someone you loved, you would feel differently. Unfortunately, many of us do know two beautiful young people who died in Ann Arbor just this year, despite the valiant efforts of our fire fighters. If you live through a fire, you are never the same, and if you lose someone to fire, you are forever devastated. These courageous and highly trained public servants deserve our gratitude and our respect, as well as excellent compensation. You are mistaken to be dismissive of their role in our community. I hope you never have to experience a fire or the loss of loved ones in a fire, but if you do, you will understand and appreciate them as never before.
Marshall Applewhite
Wed, May 4, 2011 : 2:37 a.m.
And no, this was something posted by "BornnRaised" about two days after the individual's death.
Marshall Applewhite
Wed, May 4, 2011 : 2:36 a.m.
I agree he's anonymous, but he has stated many times that he's an Ann Arbor Firefighter. After reading his angry posts for about a year, I'm inclined to believe him.
CityFF
Wed, May 4, 2011 : 2:29 a.m.
is that somewhere above? Not that I believe you but would just like to read it for myself. Sounds kind of prejuidce that you would assume that a whole group is the same as one. Especially when that one is an anonymous user.
Marshall Applewhite
Wed, May 4, 2011 : 1:38 a.m.
"I suggest to you that if even 1 of those 15 had been someone you loved, you would feel differently. Unfortunately, many of us do know two beautiful young people who died in Ann Arbor just this year, despite the valiant efforts of our fire fighters." Our resident union firefighter, BornnRaised, actually came on here attempting to downplay one of the fire deaths from this past year. I was absolutely disgusted when he attempted to blame the individual for his own death, in order to deflect blame from the fire department. Upon realizing that politics matter to AA Firefighters than saving lives, I vowed to never again support them in another petty money grab attempt.
Marshall Applewhite
Wed, May 4, 2011 : 1:21 a.m.
If the AAFD only dealt with fires, and were scheduled properly, how many total full timers would we actually need? Maybe 12? Pay them a good wage, give them good healthcare, and make them 100% responsible for their own retirement. Don't give in to the whining and attempts to obfuscate. As we've seen above, "BornandRaised" doesn't even live in the city, and doesn't seem to care about anything but his own pocketbook. The residents of Ann Arbor must take this into account.
Marshall Applewhite
Wed, May 4, 2011 : 1:48 a.m.
@Wondering(copypasta) I knew one of the people who died in the past year quite well. I'm not dismissive of the role of firefighters. I'm dismissive of the role of Firefighters' union and the archaic methods of operating that are forced onto cities across the country. If the unions didn't force such inefficient operations, my friend might still be alive today.
Wonderin'
Wed, May 4, 2011 : 1:31 a.m.
I suggest to you that if even 1 of those 15 had been someone you loved, you would feel differently. Unfortunately, many of us do know two beautiful young people who died in Ann Arbor just this year, despite the valiant efforts of our fire fighters. If you live through a fire, you are never the same, and if you lose someone to fire, you are forever devastated. These courageous and highly trained public servants deserve our gratitude and our respect, as well as excellent compensation. You are mistaken to be dismissive of their role in our community. I hope you never have to experience a fire or the loss of loved ones in a fire, but if you do, you will understand and appreciate them as never before.
citizenx
Wed, May 4, 2011 : 1:13 a.m.
Alan G did you know one of the lives saved this past week was done by two herioc citizens who apparently were trained in CPR and not AAFD as Mr. Schroeder would have you believe ? Now Im sure AAFD assisted once they arrived, but lets give credit where credit is due......
leaguebus
Wed, May 4, 2011 : 1 a.m.
AA is different than most cities of it's size, it has UM and many large buildings that house hundreds of bodies. If and when we have a major fire in one of those buildings, we will see the folly of all the fire department cuts. Most people in New Orleans knew that the levees were not going to hold for a large hurricane, but they have never had one of those, until Katrina. It would have been far less costly to build the levees better, but they didn't. Same goes for AA, keep cutting public safety because nothing big has happened and eventually it will happen. How about a tornado through downtown? Possible, yes. Fast response with the right number of firefighters, no.
Cash
Wed, May 4, 2011 : 12:01 a.m.
It is appropriate on the week that Osama bin Ladin was killed, and many actually celebrated it.....for ALL city employees and residents to remember that on 9-11 there were 343 firefighters and paramedics who were killed in the Twin Towers. I believe those men, primarily between the ages of 35-39, were in a union. Do you call them lazy, accuse them of milking the system, of not working enough hours? Or is it just Ann Arbor firefighters you detest and distrust? While city administrators take pot shots at our own firefighters, perhaps we could all take time out to remember that only one disaster can turn the targets of your distrust into the most trusted admired people in America. Let us all hope that never happens again. It shouldn't take a disaster to wake people up.
Rachel
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 10:19 p.m.
Since when have firemen, and teachers become the evils of our society? Why haven't the top executives that caused this financial crisis paying? I am tired of going on to A2.com and seeing all these comments that bash public employees. They have incredibly difficult jobs and are the forgotten heroes of this nation.
Cash
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 11:47 p.m.
Whenever there's a city hall article here, some administrators appear to create user names and post and then vote for themselves all day. We then never see that name again. So I wouldn't take it to heart. Most of us realize the value of public service.
Kai Petainen
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 9:55 p.m.
It might surprise you that I don't have much of a political opinion about the mayor. I have some strong views on other matters, but I'm rather unopinionated about him as mayor. I think he has a hard job balancing the city and the university. But, in my dealings only once have I sent an emai/letter to the mayor himself, and in it, I was thanking the AAFD. He responded to me, and although it was a short email, this was his answer. So, AAFD, thank you for your service, and I trust you got my thank you email from the mayor. "Thank you very much. I will pass this along to the Fire Chief who will make sure the whole department receives it. John Hieftje"
Bill
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 9:25 p.m.
I looked at the graph on <a href="http://www.a2politico.com/?p=7864" rel='nofollow'>http://www.a2politico.com/?p=7864</a>. I don't need to understand the null hyphothesis to see where one line goes down and deaths go up. I would feel "comfortable" if the mayor's office used no cooling this summer--let him use fans like when we were growing up--and no heat next winter. He can just bulk up on coats. If that doesn't save enough, start working your way down through city administrator and other high paid offices. Firefighters are much more important to me than if we have a mayor or a city manager. No mayor is going to risk his life to save a child from a burning building.
Listen
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 9:01 p.m.
The first paragraph of this article states, twice, that response times have increased in the last decade, but there is no data provided to show that. And then you have what appears to be a giant leap to the correlation that having fewer firefighters has directly resulted in more fire fatalities. That's too big a stretch without offering the data in between. Can we see the data, please? What is the year-by-year average response time, the year-by-year number of fires and the actual response times to fires? (Not the response times to slip and falls....just to fires, because this article is all about fire fatalities). I don't see how response time could be affected by reducing the number of firefighters in each station....there are still firefighters on duty and they move just as quickly as they ever did. The only reason you should see a reduction in response time is if there were two active fires in the same area of the city at once or if firestations were actually closed. These situations have both occurred within the last year, so presumably there ought to be some good data out there that could be shared about the actual response times?
Craig Lounsbury
Wed, May 4, 2011 : 12:06 a.m.
so I should only take some of what you say literally? I'll try to remember. I assumed you meant what you wrote....my bad.
BornNRaised
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 11:56 p.m.
Must you take everything so literal? Next time I'll put the "Craig-Clause" in my message.
Craig Lounsbury
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 11:47 p.m.
I didn't read where Listen suggested disbanding the fire department. So your first sentence makes little sense. Other than that you make some fair points.
BornNRaised
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 11:31 p.m.
You may or may not choose to appreciate the similar reference here, but that's like saying we should disband the military because WW I and II were their hay day, now we don't need them. That is, until the next war breaks out. FF, PD, Military, FEMA, and a slew of other professions are in place for the 'what if' and to be ready to respond at a moments notice. Just like with the National Guard, they're excellent to have, but you still need those that 'pick up and go' without hesitation. Don't take this to mean I'm insensitive to tax payers, as I'm sure some will attempt to twist... but regardless of good times vs bad times, lives are still lost, fires still burn, property is still lost. So, whether Ann Arbor was swimming in money or not, is regardless. In fact, it's a proven statistic that in economic hardships, PD and FD personnel are more active. Homes destroyed for insurance, violence, thefts, etc. I fully appreciate that times are harder. The problem I have is how city council spends the money and then points the finger somewhere else. That needs to be fixed first and foremost.
Listen
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 11:02 p.m.
BNR: First let me say that I appreciate your service, your life-saving skills, and the risks that you sometimes have to take in order to protect/save people and dwellings. And I can certainly understand how reducing the number of firefighters could potentially impact your overall ability to provide the same level of service. But real data would go a long way in helping this argument, and Mr. Shroeder's hinting at reduced response times but not providing real data to back that up is not helping your cause. The unlinked correlation between manpower and fatalities simply comes across as a scare tactic. You must admit that in your 216 working hours per month, there is ALOT of non-working time. Except for the Rescue, most days there is time for grocery shopping, car washing, working out, watching TV, playing video games and oftentimes sleeping through the night. Yes, I know there are also training activities and there are some shifts where all heck breaks loose and you're going nonstop....but I also know those are rare. You're paid well, have almost no healthcare cost, get a food allowance, get plenty of OT, and spend a great deal of your working day not working. When times are good maybe that's ok, because you're there and ready to go. When times aren't good, like now, it's a bit harder for John Q Public to swallow. I know and appreciate that you're skilled and have the ability to save lives. But can/should the taxpayers really pay for that much idle time on the job?
BornNRaised
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 9:58 p.m.
Listen, sorry Geez had to push his agenda. I'm sure you, as a rational person, know what I mean. Trucks don't save people, people save people. To be clear for the non-rational people, the empty lot example was not about POCs. It was about what happens HERE when there's not enough people. You're right, the phrase "response times" is misleading in that most people assume it means how fast the first truck can get there. Actually, that means very little. But it's an excuse city officials like to use saying, "See, we got a truck there fast." Means nothing. I was at the fatality on State street as well as the triple fatal on Halloween. While I'm sure people who have no knowledge of the fire service will chime in, I do believe that a faster response (with the appropriate number of firefighters) would've made a considerable difference. But we can arm chair quarterback this all day. The fact of the matter is, the FD saves lives. I'm not saying that you remove 2 firefighters and 10 people will suffer. But yes, there is a relationship between the two. It's like saying there's no way to say you would die if all the UofM ER doctors were let go. You may never need them. But you realize there's a direct link to them being able to render the proper care, and having enough people there. It's a slippery slope. I've never been a fan of Heifte and Fraser due to their lies, but I'm definitely not a fan of this 'experiment' they're conducting. Let's do a study, analyze the results and move from there. Right now they're shooting from the hip.
Listen
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 9:48 p.m.
Well then the phrase "response time" seems to be pretty inappropriate. Perhaps it should be called "response level" or something of that nature. In any event, it would still be nice to see the data. And I'm not concerned about seeing an empty lot where a house used to sit...whether a house needs a partial rebuild or a raze and rebuild is irrelevant for this article about fire fatalities. I'd like to see the data that shows how the weakened response level has resulted in not having enough firefighters to conduct a victim rescue. There were 4 fatalities last year that I recall (perhaps there were more but I recall 4). Was the response time (or response level) a factor for the young college man downtown or the 3 family members who died on the west side? If more firefighters showed up could they have conducted a rescue that would have prevented these deaths? If so, that is the type of data that could really help the FD's argument.
Geez-O-Petes
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 9:40 p.m.
and you reply how bad surrounding communities fire services are and yet you live there?? True agenda, save my job, save my job, save my job!!
Mick52
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 6:13 p.m.
If i recall correctly, the agreement made in January of last year was designed to postpone layoffs for six months, which is what happened. The city upheld its part of the agreement. This is not the first time I have heard a FF union official bring this up in an accusational manner. Also, I can understand that if a fire station is closed, response time to structures in that area will be delayed. But in areas where the stations are open, how is it that a response would be delayed if on duty staff is less one or two FFs? The response should be the same, but with less personnel on the truck. Maybe with less union FFs, the chief can go to and assist if there is a working fire. Another option is cross training police offices in fire fighting. Train all new and some existing POs in fire fighting and use them for assistance if needed. Happens in many cities. Finally I have always been a big supporter here of both AAFD and AAPD, both are excellent departments. But Councilmember Rapundalo comment that the firefighters union has been unwilling to bring its health care benefits in line with other city employees to save two positions is very telling. Not just other city employees, but the rest of us too. What happened to asking what you can do rather than asking what will be done for you?
BornNRaised
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 6:23 p.m.
Hmm... what's your opinion on this: During negotiations, when asked why our concessions aren't being factored into the reduced budget, HR LEADER Robyn, stated, "Well, that was your own fault for agreeing to that." How is responses delayed? Even if your station isn't closed, there are 3 people on a truck. Driver (stays with the truck for water supply), Officer (must to a 360 degree walk around to see all sided of the house and see if victims are hanging outside a window), and FF. You need 4 people to enter a structure. 2 inside, 2 backing them up outside. You might get that one truck there fast, but so what? If there are now firefighters to do the job, you can have 3 trucks there. Big deal! It's not just about response times. It's about people on scene. The chief can assist? What chief? The one that left? How about we recall the 8 other chiefs in the last couple years that left because they wanted no part of what the city is doing to public safety. How about the Police chief. He just took a modified academy program. No physical stuff... all classroom work. How about we send him in to come get you?
Cash
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 5:48 p.m.
City hall adminstrators must not be very busy today.....see? i
CincoDeMayo
Wed, May 4, 2011 : 10:42 a.m.
love it : )
Cash
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 11:45 p.m.
Now that's one job that I never had! But wouldn't that be fun?
Kai Petainen
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 10:08 p.m.
but Cash, then we'd have to try guessing your name too. =) i guess that you are a former game show host.
Kai Petainen
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 10:06 p.m.
hahahahah....... good point.
Cash
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 9:41 p.m.
Kai, Now that would be fun!! And they get paid to vote for their own posts all day. So we know it's not firemen who waste their days!
Kai Petainen
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 9:19 p.m.
I wish we could have a forum where we guess the names.
Cash
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 7:04 p.m.
Interesting how a new name pops up with each one of these city Hall type articles and gets hundreds of pro-administration votes. Then the next time, a new ID is created. Yes, yes, we all fall for it. Sure we do.
Cash
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 6:12 p.m.
Yes, isn't it a shame? Use their real name and do work instead of voting! :-(
Kai Petainen
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 6:01 p.m.
Based on the comments im reading, quite a few folks here sound like officials. Too bad they don't have the guts to put their real names
Ricebrnr
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 4:28 p.m.
Can somebody point me to this giant pool of volunteers I keep hearing about? In this day and economy, who can spare 8 - 12 hours of their lives for an unpaid position with a high buy-in? Who's supplying the equipment, training and training. Don't know about you but I can't leave my job at the drop of a hat to go fight fires and expect to remain employed. Nor can I expect to do my paying job effectively if I'm exhausted from volunteering my free time overnights at the FD, never mind if I actually have to run calls. It's tough enough for me to wring a few hours once a week away from my family and a day once every other month for my personal hobbies. Let me also remind you that if I volunteered for Civilian patrol, I would be looked down on as a cowboy and adrenaline junkie, just itching to "off" a innocent bystander... Yet there are saints who are willing and capable to replace, one for one and skill for skill one of our fire fighters?
Ricebrnr
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 8:53 p.m.
Craig, I wasn't actually addressing you but just using the data you cited. If you are going to compare apples to apples, and not "as a whole" then volunteers in a city our size are indeed rare. Per your cite. I asked for proof of concept for our area, for our circumstances. I thank you for your citation which proved my point.
Geez-O-Petes
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 6:40 p.m.
Higher pay and benefits?? Well, thatll leave you with Ann Arbor Fire department!!
BornNRaised
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 5:33 p.m.
Go to any volunteer department and the #1 problem they'll tell you is turnover. The time factor scares most off in a couple of years. Then you have to retrain a whole new batch. Keep in mind those are departments that run about 1/10 the calls Ann Arbor does. I'm not saying you'd never find volunteers. Of course you would. That would be no problem. The problem would be keeping them on the department and fighting the constant reoccuring costs of starting over with training. One of the main ways you'd keep volunteers is offering higher pay and benefits. In the end, where would that get you?
Geez-O-Petes
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 5:25 p.m.
I'll volunteer!!
Craig Lounsbury
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 5:13 p.m.
again I'm not espousing a volunteer system. I'm merely responding to your post implying they must be rare.
Craig Lounsbury
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 5:11 p.m.
you missed my point again. .... you asked: "Can somebody point me to this giant pool of volunteers I keep hearing about?" "who can spare 8 - 12 hours of their lives for an unpaid position with a high buy-in?" "Don't know about you but I can't leave my job at the drop of a hat to go fight fires and expect to remain employed." "Nor can I expect to do my paying job effectively if I'm exhausted " "It's tough enough for me to wring a few hours..." "I would be looked down on as a cowboy and adrenaline junkie, " what you gave is a number of reasons why you couldn't/ wouldn't be a volunteer then extrapolated that to the idea if you couldn't then volunteers must be rare. All I'm pointing out is they aren't rare they are indeed the norm when looking at firefighters as a whole.
Ricebrnr
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 5:02 p.m.
A couple follow up questions...who pays for the volunteers's health insurance and covers them if they are hurt "on the job"? How would that correlate to a paid fire fighter? How many volunteers would it take to equal a paid firefighter in terms of available guaranteed man hours?
Ricebrnr
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 4:59 p.m.
From your link, important take aways... Most of the career firefighters (74%) are in communities that protect 25,000 or more people. Most of the volunteer firefighters (94%) are in departments that protect fewer than 25,000 people, and more than half are located in small, rural departments protecting fewer than 2,500 people.
Craig Lounsbury
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 4:52 p.m.
a link... <a href="http://www.nfpa.org/itemDetail.asp?categoryID=955&itemID=23688&URL=Research/Fire%20statistics/The%20U.S.%20fire%20service&cookie_test=1#facts" rel='nofollow'>http://www.nfpa.org/itemDetail.asp?categoryID=955&itemID=23688&URL=Research/Fire%20statistics/The%20U.S.%20fire%20service&cookie_test=1#facts</a>
Craig Lounsbury
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 4:51 p.m.
without passing judgement on the wisdom of volunteers i will say that I have seen statistics that show 72% of the firefighters in the United States are "volunteer". Only 28% are career fire fighters.
EyeHeartA2
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 3:48 p.m.
I'm sure this is statistically significant. I did however, miss that part of the analysis. At what level of statistical significance was the fatality rate correlated to the firefighter staffing level? What type of distribution was assumed? What was the null hypothesis? ....or were we just wingin' it? I looked at Pat Lesko's link and it looked like zero correlation to me - or maybe it is inversely correlated to UM football victories/season. Unless somebody does some real ciphering on it, my hypothesis is as good as Matt's.
javajolt1
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 9:43 p.m.
You said: "There is no dispute that during the period when the City dramatically decreased fire staffing, fire related fatalities increased" ....but that's cool. You also say....." I remain interested in your ideas on how we reduce the number of people dying in fires" My answer: change your batteries in your smoke detector at least twice a year. Honestly...that's not a joke.
Jack Eaton
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 9:24 p.m.
javajolt1 - "See Jack, By your logic you are asking us to see a relationship between staffing cuts and fatalities." I am not asking anyone to make a connection between staffing and fatalities. Instead, I said that we should avoid being sidetracked by such distractions. Then, instead of asserting that staffing increases would reduce fire related deaths, I asked how we should address the problem of increased fire fatalities. I personally do not think that additional fire staffing cuts will reduce the number of fire related fatalities, but I remain interested in your ideas on how we reduce the number of people dying in fires.
EyeHeartA2
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 7:29 p.m.
How about: How many fires are there per year? - for each of those years? What was the average response time for each of those years? By jumping straight to the answer, it sure looks like poor analysis.
javajolt1
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 7:12 p.m.
See Jack, By your logic you are asking us to see a relationship between staffing cuts and fatalities. By not providing evidence of this 'causality' let's look at the complete reverse: If we had 100,000 fire fighters in Ann Arbor, would that guarantee fatalities would be zero? That's why the questions are salient. At what point to staffing reductions INCREASE fatalities. seriously....it's a valid question.
javajolt1
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 7:02 p.m.
They were two simple questions: - How many fire fatalities are there in a typical year? - Over the period of reduced staffing, were there more fires than normal? Less fires? I guess you have no numbers then. Why the smokescreen? (pardon the pun)
Jack Eaton
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 6:33 p.m.
"Are there numbers to support this?" Numbers to support what? I think that rather than quibbling over causation, we should identify the real issue. Think of all the folks who died while cigarette companies argued that smoking did not "cause" cancer. Here, the problem is an increase in fire fatalities. The discussion should be about how we reduce the number of fire related deaths. Let's not be distracted by the cronies who wish to talk about anything other than the real problem. If you can suggest something that might address the significant increase in fire related deaths, I'd like to hear your ideas. If you just want to divert the conversation to something other than the real problem, you've already lost the argument.
javajolt1
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 5:22 p.m.
Are there numbers to support this? How many fire fatalities are there in a typical year? Over the period of reduced staffing, were there more fires than normal? Less fires? Even though it seems intuitive there may be a correlation, it shouldn't be based upon emotion or scaring the public. If there are hard, bankable numbers to support the assertion, it would help the firefighters case. If not, it would be a conflict of interest to imply the correlation, and therefore invalid.
Jack Eaton
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 4:40 p.m.
There is no dispute that during the period when the City dramatically decreased fire staffing, fire related fatalities increased. The issue is not whether there is a direct causal relationship between the staff cuts and the deaths. The issue is what should the City do to address the dramatic increase in fire related deaths? I don't think anyone should be comfortable with the suggestion that the increase in fire fatalities should be addressed by making further cuts to fire fighting staff.
Jaime
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 3:27 p.m.
Insurance companies are in business to make money. You can bet that home insurance premiums will rise as the response time gets longer. Maybe the residents of Ann Arbor would like to vote themselves a tax increase.
Craig Lounsbury
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 4:15 p.m.
only if the tax increase was less than the insurance premium increase would that make fiscal sense.
Fred Gilbert
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 2:45 p.m.
In a city like A2, with few fires, there is great merit in working with departments in the townships to combine forces. It makes great sense to cooperate on fire services. The city is on the right track with cooperation. Will the union be willing to consider changes to their 120 year old model of 24 hour shifts when the study results come in? Why not three 8 hour shifts or 2 of twelve? Or adding some volunteers like they do in many cities out west and also in Wisconsin and Minnesota? So 4 firefighters would arrive on scene and others would join them. Why not be open to change to help the community? I am tired of seeing a fire truck and an ambulance go to every slip and fall. Why does a station location even matter if they are taking the trucks all over, out of position if one of the few actual fire calls comes in.
BornNRaised
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 9:25 p.m.
Geez... it's kind of funny when I look at your posting history. How's the view from city hall? I never said POC was sub-par. Those are your words you picked. In fact I've said multiple times that POC is a great solution for certain areas. Areas that run about 600 calls a year and are rural, it's perfect. I don't have the energy to re-educate you on my position on POC and Career. You assume it's a versus issue. It never has been. You chose to make it that and attach it to my name. This is why I try not to engage folks like you. You get so off subject you don't even remember what the story is about. Amazing.
Geez-O-Petes
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 9:13 p.m.
JohnnyA2, I believe Craig is trying to point out perhaps that BornNRaised(admitted AAFD member) lives in a community outside of Ann Arbor which has POC, and that his post's reflect that POC is subpar to a "career" department. I think Craig's questions is relevant..
johnnya2
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 8:43 p.m.
Why would where somebody lives be relevant to his argument? Unless you clarify why that is important, your question is like asking him his show size or if he is married or not.
Craig Lounsbury
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 6:17 p.m.
"Now you wonder why I won't tell you personal information about myself like I owe you something?" You don't owe me anything. You can refuse to respond and toss in all the insults you want. But asking you what fire department jurisdiction you live in is hardly "personal information". Now that's comical. I didn't ask you your name, I didn't ask you what street you live on. I didn't ask you what zip code your in.
BornNRaised
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 6:10 p.m.
LOL. I'm sorry you feel that way Craig. I've always found your comments to be no more than comical at best. Here's another take that might appeal to a little bit of common sense to you. I'm obviously a FF that has no respect for the Mayor, Fraser, or council. I've exposed numerous lies and misrepresentations of information. There's only a handfull of us that live in the city. The city monitors this as well as the city network (i.e. restricted access to a2policito.com during the election and ever since). Now you wonder why I won't tell you personal information about myself like I owe you something? Again... Comical at best.
Craig Lounsbury
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 5:44 p.m.
The only real back and forth we don't see eye to eye on is the reduced response time from the deli counter in the grocery store. "You've constanly fought against every factual piece of info I've ever given you. " that's absolutely NOT TRUE. All I have ever done is ask for clarification or a link to a study or piece of information you have mentioned. You generally ignore the request then turn it in to accusations against me later. I find your refusal to identify what fire jurisdiction you live in to be a bit hypocritical.
BornNRaised
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 5:28 p.m.
Because I've been foolish enough to fall into your silly back-and-forth games before that get so far off topic it's ridiculous. My answer would surprise you, however, you may as well ask me what my political views are and my favorite color are. They have about as much relevance. You've constanly fought against every factual piece of info I've ever given you. Why should I know argue with you on this? It's pointless.
Craig Lounsbury
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 5:17 p.m.
BNR, why are you afraid to answer a simple question?
BornNRaised
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 5:07 p.m.
Let me be more to the point Craig. I have the medical training to take care of my family. I also know which firestations are closed and when. I'm also well aware of where the 'staging' points are for HVA. Therefore, I know how long I'll be waiting vs. driving to the hospital myself. I'm not into Fraser's admitted 'experiment' with lives. BTW, don't worry about complaining anymore about FF's shopping for their food. Your station won't be there to complain about anymore. I'm sure you'll find something else.
Craig Lounsbury
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 4:14 p.m.
"t's your butts, not mine." Just out of curiosity BNR, if you had an emergency at home on your day off and called 911 which fire department would show up?
BornNRaised
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 3:23 p.m.
Way to stay current. AAFD has scaled back the medical calls we go on. Now when you slip and fall, you get HVA. If the dispatcher didn't get all the info from you and it's serious, you'll lay on the floor until we arrive to assist. Don't worry, it's all good. The Mayor is comfortable with it. If he's good, I'm good. It's your butts, not mine.
ToddGack
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 3:01 p.m.
You forgot to say that you are tired of seeing a fire truck, an ambulance and a police car go to every slip and fall.
Fred Gilbert
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 2:33 p.m.
If you check the facts, the city administrators budget presentation on line, you see that police and fire have grown from 40% to 52% of the budget in just 10 years. Other areas have been cut. The city is prioritizing police and fire. Fire departments across the state are being cut. Something like 2500 laid off. Wasn't it Jackson that closed 2 of their 3 fire stations a few months ago. Stations are closing throughout the state and nation. I think they closed another one a few years before that. The old fountain again, fact is articles here have shown that none of the art money could be spent on FF's. The "buckets" governments have to work with are real. The AAFF union could save half of the positions up for layoff by just paying the same for their health care as other city employees. When they step up to the plate to help the city in the toughest of all times, I will vote for a new millage. I respect the fact the A2 is one of the few cities that has not raised taxes in many years. They need to stay the course and not be intimidated by union scare tactics.
Jack Eaton
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 3:21 p.m.
Police are a higher percent of the general fund because of a basic math principal. If you take dollars out of the denominator and keep the numerator the same, the percent goes up. In 2000, solid waste used to be part of the general fund. Just adding back FY2010 solid waste expenses to total general fund expenses (the denominator) reduces the police FY2010 percent to 44%. If you add back the other departments that have been moved out of the general fund since FY2000 (project management, IT, construction code fund) the percent drops to 39% The employee figures reported in the audits do not support the claim that everything has been done to protect the safety services budget. The number of police and fire employees dropped 35% between FY02 and FY10. The decline in non safety services employees during the same period is 24%. The proposed FY13 budget has more IT and DDA employees than those departments had in FY02.
sailor67
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 2:22 p.m.
First of all, 15 fire fatalities in the past 20 years is nowhere near enough empiracle evidence to draw any sort of statistical conclusions - especially the one's that Matt Schroeder is making. Isn't it strange that the IAFF (International Association of Firefighters) has always used NFPA (National Fire Prevention Association) standards and guidelines to promote their agenda, but has continually chosen to ignore large-scale NFPA studies that fail to show a causal relationship between "manning" (as it relates to response times) and fire fatalities - except in rural settings and wildfire scenarios. While I admire Mr. Schroeder's efforts to represent the members of his local, his sampling is just too small to draw any defendable conclusions. I would also like to remind Mr. Schroeder that (both) the IAFF and the NFPA have established a direct correlation between operational efficiency and firefighter health & safety. So I think Mr. Schroeder and his membership would be well-served by; accepting the realities of today's economy, realizing that they're going to be doing "more with less", enhancing their relationship with WAMAA, amending their operational SOPs to reflect more defensive strategies, and focusing their efforts on equipment, training and the establishment of a quality wellness program. In summary, I wish you all well and to stay safe.
grye
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 3:42 p.m.
You could probably better correlate the increase in green space purchases by the city to the increase in fire fatalities. We should decrease one to see if the other also decreases.
DBlaine
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 2:14 p.m.
What are the fire department's response times? Have they changed?
alan
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 2:13 p.m.
I live with a volunteer fire department. They do the job to the best of their ability but can not receive the same training (they all have jobs). Almost half of my homeowners premium is for fire.
Cash
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 2:12 p.m.
mlivesaline, "Sometimes fires just happen and people die, that's life. We can't save everyone. Let's all face the facts here. The fire fighters union is worried about lives yes..." Yes, that's a cool thing to say, unless the person is YOU. Thus, the firemen and police officers are the most important resources that the city has. If you do not have your LIFE nothing else matters folks. There are two departments in the city that save lives...and they get the cuts. Priorities.
Kai Petainen
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 4:21 p.m.
Cash. I agree with you but I hope by me saying that people wont disagree with you.
mlivesaline
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 2 p.m.
Times are still tough and everyone has to minimize costs. Don't get me wrong, everyone would like to have a fireman on their block. They do amazing things, but we just cannot afford those levels right now. With the FD union it's always about using the scare tactic. Back many years when they were going to close their first fire station you would have thought many people would die thereafter due to its closing. Don't think that ever happened. And you know what? Sometimes fires just happen and people die, that's life. We can't save everyone. Let's all face the facts here. The fire fighters union is worried about lives yes, but the main worry here is for their jobs and compensation.
Jaime
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 1:52 p.m.
Ann Arbor has put themselves in this situation by, among other things, giving in to union demands over the years. I guess they just thought the taxpayer money would keep rolling in at higher and higher rates. I am not saying that police and fire fighters don't deserve appreciation, good wages and benefits. They do a great service to the community. Its nice to be a green city but when you buy up property within the city limits an turn it into environmentally insignificant green space (Dicken Woods) then your tax base cannot grow.
Kai Petainen
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 1:08 p.m.
In the Huron River spill, the 1st Complainant was "Tom" from the Huron Valley Ambulance. According to the DPS report, he reported it, but when the AAFD responded he was no where to be found. "Several Ann Arbor Fire Dept. employees and I began checking the areas around the Huron River for signs of gas leakage in the water. We were initially unable to locate any problems/signs of contamination in the water. "Tom", an employee from H.V.A. who contacted our Dept. to report the river contamination issue was not on scene." Source: <a href="http://a2docs.org/assets/files/2011/04/05/DPS.pdf" rel='nofollow'>http://a2docs.org/assets/files/2011/04/05/DPS.pdf</a> If the HVA is to respond to things, then why are they not located when other emergency personnel show up? Why did they make the call, but then leave the scene? I don't want my emergency personnel leaving the scene. Give $$ to the AAFD. They are the unappreciated (but should be appreciated) heroes in this city.
Kai Petainen
Wed, May 4, 2011 : 2:43 p.m.
complain about me as you will... but there is at least one thing that i have helped this community with. when the spill happened, it wasn't coded onto the DPS website police beat, because they didn't have the proper 'coding' in place to put it on the site. now, if you look at the site, they do list spills that happen. when i met with DPS i told them to list spills on the website and they agreed to do it. just yesterday they had this listed... <a href="http://police.umich.edu/?s=crime_log" rel='nofollow'>http://police.umich.edu/?s=crime_log</a> "Chemical spill / leak CAD#: 111230128 " In the past, that would not have been listed. But now they are doing a better job of listing such events -- and I will take credit for that.
Kai Petainen
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 3:30 p.m.
dblaine. i don't know who did it. steve. just put me on ignore. i won't be offended. as sick as folks may be of this, it applies to a lot of themes in ann arbor: 1. AAFD -- they do a lot of stuff, they did a lot of work in this example, and that work has not be recognized for the great work they did that day. so the topic relates to $$ at the AAFD. 2. DPS and AAFD responded. both chiefs from both departments aren't there anymore. perhaps no link to this situation, but it is puzzling. 3. issues involving disclosure. the public wasn't told of the spill through the DPS website, or notified of it when they went canoeing. so it is a case where the public was not told. 4. issues involving environment. nuff said. 5. the fuller parking transit lot center. there is an enviro report for that, that highlights the spills that have occurred in the area. that enviro report is not up to date to reflect this spill. 6. problems with solving this spill. was it lack of skill? equipment? communication? 7. how enviro groups ask for money and talk about happy things, but don't mention this. 8. water. 85% of the huron river is our drinking water. 9. crime. assuming this was a crime, someone got away with it and there are a lot of other smaller crimes in ann arbor that get punished, but this one got away. 10. phosphoric acid. is it used to clean parking lots? sometimes? never? 11. concerns with water levels and changes in water levels on the huron river. 12. why do we have a city of experts, but no one can solve this?
Geez-O-Petes
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 3:25 p.m.
HVA called it in i.e. THEY DISPATCHED THE CALL!! Ambulances will not go to a spill unless there is a high potential or actual injury to persons involved that would require medical care.. How difficult is this to understand??
Kai Petainen
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 2:58 p.m.
Is it standard procedure to write a report that states the hva called it in but wasn't there when officials looked for hva?
steve h
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 2:39 p.m.
this Kai dude is driving me insane with his ridiculous references to a spill on the Huron River. In his honor I am going to change my oil today and go dump it in the river
DBlaine
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 2:12 p.m.
Ugh, maybe he had to take a call of a heart attack. He is HVA. Besides, why would he stay? You can't give CPR to a spill. And you know, nobody'll ever find out who caused the spill. Just because you can trace it back to the U-M property doesn't mean a U-M employee caused the spill. Just like your neighbor can pour oil down the stormdrain in front of your house. You've just got to get over it.
Geez-O-Petes
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 2:12 p.m.
Disregard, "Tom" appears to perhaps be a dispatcher who received a call from "Lori" who called on the complaint.. This has nothing to do with HVA being on scene when AAFD arrived.. Of course "Tom" wasn't there, dispatch center is in South Ann Arbor!! AAFD is the appropriate agency to respond to potential HAZMAT situations..
Geez-O-Petes
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 2:04 p.m.
Maybe he was off-duty..
nekm1
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 1:01 p.m.
Another thought would be to raise the city property taxes by 10% to cover the shortfall, or simply increase taxes to coincide with automatic pay raises for city administrators and union workers. That way, we would never have a shortfall. Plus institute a city sales tax for services, maybe 6%.. All you would need at that point is Orkin, to kill the sound of crickets, when the taxpaying citizens leave.
CincoDeMayo
Wed, May 4, 2011 : 10:14 a.m.
I don't know. I did the math. These job cuts are supposed to save something like 1.8 million according to an email from Chris Taylor. That divided by Ann Arbor's population of about 64,000 (without students) comes to about $28 a person PER YEAR. That does not sound like a 10% raise in taxes! Unless you are paying a LOT less in taxes than I am! Why was there no millage vote? Was it because the administration like to have complete flexibility - and control - of the funds? Funds from a millage would have to be dedicated to these services....like those in many of our surrounding communities, I would have voted YES.
nekm1
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 12:55 p.m.
How about we keep the union drivers, and make the rest of the deparment volunteer. Works in much larger cities than Ann Arbor.
bob elton
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 12:54 p.m.
I worked in Troy, which has an almopst completely volunteer fire department. One of my colleagues was a volunteer fireman. One day. we wer in a meeting when he got a "code 3" call, the call for the most serious kind of fire. He immediately got up and left the meeting, and went to fight the fire. The next day he was fired for leaving a meeting without permission. I find it hard to imagine that you could create a volunteer fire department with those kinds of motivations.
BornNRaised
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 12:52 p.m.
So when you read the other story here about human services funding you'll see the photo caption: "Michael Appel, associate director of nonprofit Avalon Housing, appeared before the Ann Arbor City Council Monday night with several supporters holding 4,738 origami cranes" See, so all the FD and PD had to do was come to the meeting with colorful and pretty paper figures to make council pay attention. Guess we now know how to get the attention of council for the next round of layoffs.
CincoDeMayo
Wed, May 4, 2011 : 10:06 a.m.
I have a lot of respect for Michael Appel and the work he does. I'm also a big supporter of Avalon Housing. And, I'm thinking the more Ann Arbor makes these kinds of cuts, the bigger the jobless and homeless population becomes, the more we will need those human services. I'm not sure who will be left behind to pay for them. .. I'm thinking it'll be the $120,000 plus attorneys, psychiatrists and the school superintendent. Why no millage option?
Carole
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 12:40 p.m.
Great job Mark. To the mayor and council I say close down DDA, get back to basic within City Hall, i.e. administrators and keep the, or even bring up to staff, AAFD. Individuals who should be commended for the great job that they do. I find it amazing that the city can afford to pay the retiring city administrator who worked for the city for only 9 years $41,000 per year and provide complete health coverage for life. However, AAFD made concessions in their last contract and it still was not good enough for the mayor who let two more positions be eliminated. Said it before and will continue to say it -- Support our great AAFD and AAPD -- they both keep our city safe.
grye
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 12:31 p.m.
How about a few less parks (which can't even be maintained) and greenspace outside of Ann Arbor. If we are willing to pay for these luxuries, then repeal non-basic millages and increase our city millage to cover necessary services.
andys
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 12:42 p.m.
Spot on.
Cash
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 12:19 p.m.
Henry, Only speaking for myself. I don't want to wait when my life is on the line for a volunteer to get to his appointed assignment then to my house. ( a friend had a house fire in a volunteer location and they saved his home's foundation) I'd rather have a volunteer city manager or mayor...a position my life doesn't depend on. Let's just pay THEM when we need them!
Patricia Lesko
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 11:58 a.m.
The firefighters union prepared and graphed data for "fire fatalities" in Ann Arbor since 1992 as a function of staffing levels. They share it with me and I posted it here, yesterday: <a href="http://www.a2politico.com/?p=7864" rel='nofollow'>http://www.a2politico.com/?p=7864</a>
citizenx
Wed, May 4, 2011 : 1:03 a.m.
Why is it that you only seem to care about the Firefighters, what about the other city employees facing cuts ?
Kai Petainen
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 4:44 p.m.
Great link
Henry Ruger
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 11:56 a.m.
Not that I want to be a target of pro-union flamers (so to speak)... but how about a volunteer firefighters auxiliary? Lots of communities use volunteers, and in smaller ones, they're sometimes the only firefighters. Insist of the same qualifications as the pros, assign people to stations near their homes or workplaces. (OK, I'm getting my head down now.)
pseudo
Wed, May 4, 2011 : 3:59 p.m.
I grew up in a small town completely staffed by volunteer firefighters. They covered more territory than the Ann Arbor's city size but far less people...but they never failed us - they were ours and we loved them. The departement now has some full time paid staff but still uses a volunteer auxiliary and it has worked out wonderfully well.
johnnya2
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 8:33 p.m.
You do understand what volunteer means? What happens if there are not enough "volunteers" available? Oh well, too damn bad, your house burns. I also do not want my life in the hands of somebody who does this as "hobby". You wouldn't want your doctor, lawyer, or accountant to be just doing it for fun. professional firefighters have professional training. I'll stick with a union professional to keep my home from burning thank you very much
Cash
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 11:29 a.m.
I can speak to my own experience of being alone, falling and breaking bones. Within a few minutes I was looking up at three firemen. They managed to save me and relief my pain by stabilizing the area of the breaks. Yes, the ambulance showed up later. But to my dying day I will NEVER forget the speedy arrival, the kindness, and skill of the firemen. When I was afraid, alone and in extreme pain, those firemen were like angels. That is why we pay taxes, folks. Not for glitz and fancy offices...to protect and aid people in times of need.
Barry
Wed, May 4, 2011 : 11:41 p.m.
As long as it isn't a pension tax, correct?
cette
Wed, May 4, 2011 : 12:39 a.m.
Wow, Cash, you don't often write so poignantly...
mojo
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 11:26 a.m.
OK Ann Arbor - what is your priority - Green Belt or Firefighters? It is getting to the point where buying up vacant land (some not even in AA) while taxpayers get slower fire/police rescue is looking silly.
EyeHeartA2
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 2:54 p.m.
mojo; I agree with your comment, but I think NONE of the land is in Ann Arbor. Which makes it even more absurd.
andys
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 12:40 p.m.
I know the green belt money is in a separate bucket, but how many of those who voted for it now feel silly that some of there tax dollars are going towards buying vacant land when their public safety services are now being cut. Can we get our priorities in order now?
thorj97
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 10:47 a.m.
Priorities of 80%+ of AA citizens: 1) Preserve public safety 2) 1 FTE increase in Community Services 3) Give away the left-over money to worthy causes 4) AFTER DDA agrees to city requests, 1 FTE increase in DDA City council priorities: 1) Fund causes that show up to lobby at city council meetings 2) 1 FTE increase in DDA 3) 1 FTE increase in Community Services 4) Cut public safety, because there's not enough money left
Alan Goldsmith
Tue, May 3, 2011 : 10:29 a.m.
"Schroeder also said Monday night the city's firefighters save lives by responding to emergency medical calls, as evidenced by two instances this past week where city firefighters arrived well before Huron Valley Ambulance and used basic life support skills to save the lives of two citizens who experienced serous life-threatening events." Hieftje is 'comfortable' with no bid contracts to his political supporters and million dollar German designed water fountains and comfortable with bashing police and firefighters and comfortable. Maybe he is comfortable explaining this to the two citizens the firefighters provide life-saving services to cited in this example.