OverTaxed

Tue, Nov 24, 2009 : 9:17 p.m.

I'm all for a tax break, but does AATA make any money? If not, fire the management and start over. I do not pay taxes for losing endevors.

local guy

Mon, Nov 23, 2009 : 8:59 p.m.

Two quick points: We all subsidize all of the roads we use, none of which are toll roads. So the comment that 17% fare revenue is too low ignores the fact that our roads are 100% public subsidized. Also if more people took the bus, then we would need fewer lanes and parking structures (both of which costs tons more than public transit) and thereby make better use of our land and keep more land on our tax rolls. Also, unlike taxes we're asked to fork over to just maintain the status quo in real services, a county-wide millage will provide a substantial increase and enhancement to the status quo. In other words, it's a rare chance to witness our paying more taxes and getting more in return! It's kinda refreshing when you think about it! Second

local guy

Mon, Nov 23, 2009 : 7:44 p.m.

I think we need to hear more about this before we can make a judgment. There's a ton of misconceptions in what folks are saying. In fact, Ted Annis seems to be off base, too. First, we don't know what countywide service will look like. It likely does not mean that there will be fixed route service throughout the county. Instead, fix route service would likely be expanded to all of the high density areas in the county, and the less dense/more rural areas will have some other type of service (vans, demand call, etc.) that will connect to the fixed route system. Residents throughout the county will be able to take public transit to work or even connect to a train. Seniors in remote areas will be less isolated and be able to get to doctors and activities on their own. Disabled people will be able to get service no matter where they live. Right now, our service is limited by arbitrary political boundaries. Any community that hopes to be vibrant and grow must have a seamless system for the entire economic and social area. With a county network, everyone will be able to opt for public transit. The riders aren't the only ones who will benefit by a better network. Employers will benefit by having a larger pool of employees being able to get to work. Entertainment providers will benefit by having more people being able to come and go, etc. Bottom line, the concept has a lot of pros making it worth learning more about what it will look like if it happens. As for the costs -- this is an emotional issue and it's amazing how people distort the data. Even Ted Annis distorts things if he thinks that the UM system is a cost base that we should compare AATA to. UM is not subject to federal regulations, does not operate nearly as many hours as AATA does, can limit its routes to a very defined area, has no obligation to provide special services to seniors (who ride AATA for free) or disabled people (who can have a van provide them door to door service at a subsidized fare), etc. Other systems that are used for comparisons don't make sense if they are not providing 7 day service for the hours AATA provides (and we need). Let's compare apples to apples. It's absurd to think that we will get more service by paying less. If we want a vibrant system (and do not just look at this selfishly by saying "I don't take the bus"), we will have to pay a little more. One mil is not much when the potential gains are realized, if there are gains. We should wait to hear how the money will be used, what the expanded system will look like, and realize that even if "I don't use the bus", many people do and the community benefits as-a-whole. It's like being against a school bond just because "I don't have school age kids", or against a jail because "I don't like criminals." There are benefits to everyone if we have a better transit network. We should just know more about how it will be better before we decide if the investment is worthwhile. As to the comments complaining about "empty buses" -- that's a cliche. AATA actually has a higher passenger per hour rate than most transit agencies, and if you ever have been near town around the rush hour in either the a.m. or p.m., you'd see that virtually every bus is packed. It always depends on where the bus is on its route before you can judge that it's really empty. Also, the buses have to run all day, though they do run less frequently during off-peak hours. A fixed route system can't operate during the rush hours, only. Lots of people need it during the course of the day. Obviously, I've been interested in public transit and have been watching it evolve in our town. I see it as an essential economic magnet to our community, a part of our infrastructure which too often take for granted and don't recognize that a little more investment MAY result in great overall returns. Lots of things have been happening and we actually have a great system for what it is. In my view, it could be more. I've lived in major cities and enjoyed being able to use public transit in those towns anytime I needed a ride. I also enjoyed not having to pay for parking in downtown areas or at stadiums. Keeping cars off the road and not having all of us have to pay for extremely expensive parking decks (and endure more polution) is enough of a reason to seriously consider making public transit more accessible to more people. If we have a better system, we'd use it more. If we use it more, we all benefit in many direct and indirect ways. Bottom line - let's not leap to conclusions. Let's keep an open mind and ask questions.

sbbuilder

Mon, Nov 23, 2009 : 7:07 p.m.

Woman in Ypsilanti I'm not sure you're getting it. I don't use public transport currently, but have used it in the past. I don't argue its efficacy. I do, however, adamantly argue against a system that generates only 17% of its revenue from users. I don't care what that service is, or who it benefits, or who uses it, or who doesn't. I do care that a lot of people are being asked to pay for an incredibly expensive system that very few (yes, folks) actually use. The very moment that AATA shows sustained improvement in rides, and a real reduction in operating costs, I would be in favor of expansion. At that point they would have earned the right to ask for more. As it is now, I think this is putting the cart before the horse.

Woman in Ypsilanti

Mon, Nov 23, 2009 : 5:41 p.m.

I have an idea. How about if the people who dont drive stop subsidizing all those county roads that are outside of Ann Arbor and Ypsilanti. I never drive on those roads. Why do my property taxes have to pay for them? I'll bet if we stopped clearing the snow on those roads, we would have all kinds of money for public transportation! Seriously, we have to stop this whole "But I wont personally use public transportation so it doesnt make sense to support it" mentality. Like roads do, public transportation benefits us as a community even when we don't personally use it.

SemperFi

Mon, Nov 23, 2009 : 1:11 p.m.

The views here are very polarized. For those who have witnessed successful, public transit throughout the world must realize that they didn't get built overnight. There will be a substantial investment to make a regional transit system a reality for our future in Washtenaw County and the state of Michigan. How quickly we forget about $4/gal gas. That was just a shot across the bow folks. The price of petroleum products will not stay the same, nor will it decrease. For those who would rubber stamp an expansion of the status quo, I say to hold your governments and their subunits accountable for your money. Now is the time to plan for the future of our regional transportation needs. The least we can do, as a concerned public, is to listen to some inspired dreamers and figure out the best way to proceed with a long-term solution in mind.

Lastand

Mon, Nov 23, 2009 : 1 p.m.

I also answered the AATA survey. It asked if I would be willing to vote for a tax if it helped the disable and students get around, support train sevice between Ann Arbor and Detroit and train service between Ann Arbor and Howell. All for 1 mill. Such a deal. One mill would just be a down payment. I'm having a hard enough time paying the property taxes as it is. When does it end?

Blue Eyes

Mon, Nov 23, 2009 : 12:11 p.m.

Wonderful - here we go again. The City wants to reduce their taxes so let's stick it to the rest of the County residents instead! AATA Board members are appointed by the mayor of the CITY.

ann arbor girl

Mon, Nov 23, 2009 : 10:03 a.m.

The real question behind this debate is - what kind of community do we WANT to be? Every thriving urban area around the country with a burgeoning knowledge-based job base is now working to develop (or already has) a regional transit system. If Washtenaw County - or Michigan for that matter - is to compete for jobs, we MUST build our transportation system. To attract the employers of the future, we must attract the highly educated employees of the future who can live anywhere. These employers and their employees value time at work or at play (but not sitting in traffic). For those that don't want change - note that Michigan keeps finding it's being left behind because we've been slow to change and embrace the reality of a more environmentally sustainable future. A better transportation system is the key to so many elements of our future.

ToddAustin

Mon, Nov 23, 2009 : 9:12 a.m.

Improvement of AATA service throughout the area is a critical need. Within the city, the network is inadequate both in extent and in condition. The vast majority of bus stops lack basic amenities, namely a shelter with seating and some sort of paved access, so that riders need not walk through muddy grass or slog through piles of filthy snow in the winter. This situation is shameful. The extent of the network outside the city boundaries is also grossly inadequate. I will take Dexter as an example. AATA ran to Dexter until 2003, when it cut the community off. Dexter now pays the same amount of money it used to pay to AATA to run the WAVE bus, which, with its once-in-two-hours connection to the end of the AATA line, is completely inadequate for commuting to and from Ann Arbor. For the same money Dexter now spends on poor service, proper regular service could be provided by AATA. Expanding and improving the AATA network is an efficient use of public funds and good for business. It needs to be done with all due haste.

jcj

Sun, Nov 22, 2009 : 9:42 p.m.

AATA buses are just like the public school buses. Running around EMPTY!! Both are blatant waste of funds!

sbbuilder

Sun, Nov 22, 2009 : 8:30 p.m.

Let's say that roughly five to six million in additional tax revenue is all it takes to implement this plan. The question I have is, in the end, how much money is actually spent per ride? Currently, and I have incomplete data to make a reasonable estimate, let's say that each fare costs AATA (x). Will a county wide service cost the same (x), or will it actually cost more because of the greater distances involved, and the lesser density of population outside developed areas? Where I'm going with this is that with a profoundly inefficient system in place now, I think adding to it will make it even worse. Just how much do we have to pay for a service that has a questionable return on investment? Are there no alternatives that we can offer the closed in, or the handicapped? The AATA has shown consistently that without massive subsidation, it would cease to exist. This is still the land of the auto, and that is what people evidentally want to use. I have lived many years overseas on five continents, and have seen the incredible public transportation systems first hand. What a joy to partake! But get this: people choose to use these systems. What we have here is a clumsy bus system ill used that wants to get larger. Convince me first that it deserves a larger share of the public feeding trough.

Nancy Shore

Sun, Nov 22, 2009 : 5:53 p.m.

A couple of comments: 1. Just to clarify, the vision laid out by Board Member Ted Annis is one vision and does not necessarily represent what the AATA will actually do regarding countywide service. Second, the AATA is working on a countywide service plan that should be revealed soon. This plan will help the community see what the Authority has in mind regarding countywide service. There will be a chance for public comment on the service and eventually there will be the chance for us as a community to decide if we want to invest in this plan. As an Ann Arbor resident, I would be willing to pay more taxes for service that would allow seniors, people with disabilities, young people, commuters and other citizens to get around our community with ease. Currently, there are citizens living in parts of our county that are stranded at their homes because there is no transit. There are thousands of people who depend on transit to get to their jobs. The question that remains is what sort of transit service would we like in this community and how should be pay for it? That should be answered in the coming years. There is a lot more that I would like to say, but unfortunately I feel this is not a forum that invites respective discussion. If you are supportive of a move towards countywide transit, I encourage you to visit www.partnersfortransit.org

Nancy Shore

Sun, Nov 22, 2009 : 5:13 p.m.

A couple of comments: 1. Just to clarify, the vision laid out by Board Member Ted Annis is one vision and does not necessarily represent what the AATA will actually do regarding countywide service. Second, the AATA is working on a countywide service plan that should be revealed soon. This plan will help the community see what the Authority has in mind regarding countywide service. There will be a chance for public comment on the service and eventually there will be the chance for us as a community to decide if we want to invest in this plan. As an Ann Arbor resident, I would be willing to pay more taxes for service that would allow seniors, people with disabilities, young people, commuters and other citizens to get around our community with ease. Currently, there are citizens living in parts of our county that are stranded at their homes because there is no transit. There are thousands of people who depend on transit to get to their jobs. The question that remains is what sort of transit service would we like in this community and how should be pay for it? That should be answered in the coming years. There is a lot more that I would like to say, but unfortunately I feel this is not a forum that invites respective discussion. If you are supportive of a move towards countywide transit, I encourage you to visit www.partnersfortransit.org

Leslie Morris

Sun, Nov 22, 2009 : 4:24 p.m.

Sbbuilder raises an interesting point about fare revenue. I was surprised when the low senior citizen fare of 25 cents was reduced to zero not too long ago. As a senior citizen who uses the buses, I would much rather pay a reasonable fare (and it could be higher than 25 cents) for better bus service within Ann Arbor than ride free on the current system. Am I really the only one? If we are to have a convenient, usable bus system, riders should pay a fair share. Reduced price cards for low-income riders are fine, but let's be reasonable about senior fares.

Joel A. Levitt

Sun, Nov 22, 2009 : 2:03 p.m.

Id like to make three points. Since population density is key in making for a viable transit system, exactly what routes are envisioned? It is well that the AATA are anticipating separating the bus and rail systems, hopefully, in a way so that if one fails, the other will be able to continue unencumbered. Under the estimated income schedule in today's article, if all federal and state support disappears and must be covered by increasing the millage, the necessary increase would only be an approximately 0.06 mil.

sbbuilder

Sun, Nov 22, 2009 : 1:57 p.m.

Many years ago, in the early eighties, when I was poor and single, I rode the busses to and fro work. (Remember the old nasty purple and yellow affairs?) So yes, I know first hand the value of public transport. And also, I am aware that at certain times of the day the buses are used more heavily. HOWEVER, the service needs to reflect the demands the people place on it. I.e. we all use drinking water, so let's have a first class treatment plant. No argument there. But as I see it, we have this overly elaborate bus system that is chronically underused. Let's not forget that part of the 'revenue' is paid for by the U for use by students. Seventeen percent is an abysmal number for ridership revenue. This to me means that this service is not valued enough to be used anywhere near the capacity it is designed for. And now they want more.... If they wanted to do us a real 'service', perhaps they would stop asking us to pay for it.

HappySenior

Sun, Nov 22, 2009 : 12:12 p.m.

There are two telling points so far. The first is this line from the article: The AATA is hiring a consultant to get the community involved in creating a vision for that plan and identifying service needs throughout the county. There is a noticeable pattern to how the local governments push their agenda through people who don't want what they are offering. They hire a consultant who is trained in manipulated public meetings through the use of isolation and intimidation. The viewpoint of the people who hired the consultant is pushed to the front and any comments that are unfavorable are shut out. There are seminars that train these consultants on this process. People who attended greenbelt public meetings will recognize the process. The second telling point is the phone survey that is already identifying which people are in favor of the countywide transit idea or can be pushed into being in favor of it. These are the people that will be highlighted in future ads and promotions and seminars as the public. Why is it never a first step to actually ask people who use the bus system what they want changed and ask people who don't use the bus system what would need to change for them to ride a bus. I hate to be told by someone what I think. I already know what I think, thank you.

Leslie Morris

Sun, Nov 22, 2009 : 11:58 a.m.

Since this survey has been completed, is it possible for annarbor.com to post the survey questions, so that we may judge for ourselves Bryan123's contention that the survey was at least in part a "push poll"?

treelover

Sun, Nov 22, 2009 : 11:54 a.m.

I love AATA! I can't drive but I can still go anywhere I want in Ann Arbor. I would love it if they would expand into the more rural areas so I could go other places without having to get a ride from a friend. Btw, to the person who commented on the empty buses: I take the bus at least 4 times everyday and I have to stand almost every time.

Keepsitreal

Sun, Nov 22, 2009 : 11:42 a.m.

We need better public transportation! As a student I use aata all the time and it helps with parking at Wcc. I'm all for it.

Woman in Ypsilanti

Sun, Nov 22, 2009 : 11:31 a.m.

public transportation saves money by reducing wear and tear on the roads and also saves time by reducing congestion. It benefits everyone although admittedly, it benefits people in the densely populated areas of the county more. Still, as a regular user of public transportation, I really hope this works out. I would love to see service expanded outside of Ann Arbor more and this is how that will happen. Oh and re: empty buses... During rush hour, all of the buses that go between Ypsilanti-Ann Arbor are standing room only.

kenUM

Sun, Nov 22, 2009 : 11:28 a.m.

The article claims that passage would "lower" our taxes??!! I was under the impression that the current tax we pay to AATA could not by law be dissolved, and we would actually be increasing our property taxes to vote this in (Related article: "Expanding transit services throughout the County".) Is this to be a sales tax or property tax? I am curious as to what type of Transit improvements the AATA will offer as a carrot to pass this tax, I have not heard one single idea. If U-M's bus system is so efficient, then why are they not being included in this wonderful plan?

Eric64

Sun, Nov 22, 2009 : 11:17 a.m.

Higher fares on the buses that is nice.I do not know how can aata can charge $47.50 for a bus pass when a month only has 30 days in it.

Eric64

Sun, Nov 22, 2009 : 11:15 a.m.

Higher fares on the buses that is nice.

crowcat

Sun, Nov 22, 2009 : 10:32 a.m.

Here is a reason... JOBS, JOBS, JOBS! Transportation to jobs, people with the transportation jobs to transport us, new thriving businesses providing jobs because of the transportation created by bringing customers to those businesses. How about the expansion of community and night life because people don't need to worry about driving on freeways but instead may relax on a bus or train to take a night out to a nearby town or city to access local entertainment?

Ignatz

Sun, Nov 22, 2009 : 10:16 a.m.

Mass transit in this country is mostly abismal. I live in Ypsi Twp and on amain road 13 miles from work in Ann Arbor. My work schedule is not a M - F dayshift, so I can't take AATA to get there and back. Weekends are totally out of the question. I wish they'd expand more just within their current scope. BTW, AATA is not a business, but rather a public service and a necessity for those who can't afford a private vehicle. It's one of the things that keeps society civilized.

sbbuilder

Sun, Nov 22, 2009 : 9:17 a.m.

Let's see, if I ran a business where only 17% of revenue came from actual sales, and the rest came from grants, taxes, etc., I could do all kinds of nutty things. I am so much against this expansion I can hardly stand it. Everybody knows that AATA drives around empty busses all day. My kids try to spot which bus carries the fewest passengers. The UofM operates on 55/hr? Maybe thats because those busses are packed. AATA has been pushing for expanded routes for years, always claiming that eventually the populace will see the wonderful benefit and flock to their services. Not happening. In my view, the clearest 'poll' is shown by the actual numbers of riders, or lack thereof.

Donna Briggs

Sun, Nov 22, 2009 : 8:16 a.m.

I disagree with the comments below. I think a bus service to our area would be very helpful. I attend EMU and my son is attending WCC. We live in Webster Township. It would be great if we could catch a bus to take to campus from a local park and ride lot. It would save a lot of money on gas, wear and tear on the car, and parking fees, not to mention cut down on environmental damage from car exhaust. I am in favor of funding bus service to the outlying county areas not currently served.

Bryan123

Sun, Nov 22, 2009 : 6:51 a.m.

Living in a rural area of the county I doubt I would really get much benefit for my increased taxes. The bus won't be stopping anywhere near me. And I actually participated in a recent phone poll on this issue. It was a "push poll" where the interviewer constantly tried to push me towards the answers they wanted by always telling me the benefits of expanded transportation service in Washtenaw county. Even when I would give an answer they would try to get me to change it. That's not really a good poll for accurately reflecting what people want. The "support" reflected in the poll can quickly dry up once they hear arguments from the other side.

walkerman

Sun, Nov 22, 2009 : 6:37 a.m.

And what do the outlying communities get in exchange for another tax increase? Are we to believe there will be bus service on every road in every township? It's called the Ann Arbor Transit Authority for a reason. Keep it, we don't want it.